dudis wrote: ↑Mon 4 Feb 2019 12:43 PMDoes envenoms work on this server if you get an assassin buddy to aply them to your weapons?
If so, keep a bag of 1h swords in your invenotry with slow-poison to help you get some distance (and hope the other guy didnt use one on you).
Kinda cheesy but meh
inoeth wrote: ↑Mon 4 Feb 2019 2:04 PMdudis wrote: ↑Mon 4 Feb 2019 12:43 PMDoes envenoms work on this server if you get an assassin buddy to aply them to your weapons?
If so, keep a bag of 1h swords in your invenotry with slow-poison to help you get some distance (and hope the other guy didnt use one on you).
Kinda cheesy but meh
wont help you because you die whithin the stun after pa
dudis wrote: ↑Mon 4 Feb 2019 2:09 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Mon 4 Feb 2019 2:04 PMdudis wrote: ↑Mon 4 Feb 2019 12:43 PMDoes envenoms work on this server if you get an assassin buddy to aply them to your weapons?
If so, keep a bag of 1h swords in your invenotry with slow-poison to help you get some distance (and hope the other guy didnt use one on you).
Kinda cheesy but meh
wont help you because you die whithin the stun after pa
That's what purge and IP are for I suppose. At least you can win a fight every 15 minutes!
Nebu wrote: ↑Mon 4 Feb 2019 5:48 PMI agree completely and have finally purchased IP 1. I plan to get at least IP3 before looking at other RA's.
As an aside: As an experiment, I initiated combat on a RR6 inf running visible toward me while I was stealthed. I hit him with a crit shot (35 bow spec) and had time for 2 more shots while he closed (both evaded). He hit me and then evaded and stunned me, which I purged. We exchanged for a bit before I ultimately died leaving him at half health.
While looking at the logs, I noticed that his main hand was hitting for almost as much as my spear (within 12 on most shots). This was with me purging his weakness poison along with his stun. My melee resists are capped in case you were wondering.
Seems bow and 2h are a bit weaker than I had anticipated. Right now at my RR I can really only attack wounded, sitting, or Low rr caster enemies with any reasonable chance of success. Some of this is my own errors, which I'm learning from.
j.camp633 wrote: ↑Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:05 PMYour biggest problem is your spec.
Yes assassins are going to always be a tough fight for you, but you can’t spec 35 bow 35 spear at low RR and expect to do enough damage.
I would Spec 50 bow, 40 beast and try to kite and only use your spear out of desperation.
Nebu wrote: ↑Mon 4 Feb 2019 5:48 PMI agree completely and have finally purchased IP 1. I plan to get at least IP3 before looking at other RA's.
As an aside: As an experiment, I initiated combat on a RR6 inf running visible toward me while I was stealthed. I hit him with a crit shot (35 bow spec) and had time for 2 more shots while he closed (both evaded). He hit me and then evaded and stunned me, which I purged. We exchanged for a bit before I ultimately died leaving him at half health.
While looking at the logs, I noticed that his main hand was hitting for almost as much as my spear (within 12 on most shots). This was with me purging his weakness poison along with his stun. My melee resists are capped in case you were wondering.
Seems bow and 2h are a bit weaker than I had anticipated. Right now at my RR I can really only attack wounded, sitting, or Low rr caster enemies with any reasonable chance of success. Some of this is my own errors, which I'm learning from.
Ashenspire wrote: ↑Tue 5 Feb 2019 1:45 PMHigh weapon is good because it reduces evade, but high bow is bad, even though it does the same thing? Makes sense.
Ashenspire wrote: ↑Tue 5 Feb 2019 3:52 PMUnstyled attacks aren't harder to dodge/party/block. To hit bonus only effects the final hit check. Your weaponskill is what determines your chance to penetrate defenses (dw/shield and 2h/parry no bonuses notwithstanding)
Tillbeast wrote: Hunter vs Assassin is pretty much an auto win for the assassin unless hunter is really high RR, IP5 and Purge2 at the least. Its the new MoS and stealth detection rules that screw you over, they always 100% see you first unless they don't have 50 stealth (what assassin don't have composite 50 stealth). By time you see them they are lining up their strike and its too late. Having MoS as part of the stealth ability and not a separate RR gives assassins more freedom to take offensive RA's which don't help. Also there is no physical defence RA nor truesight. Assassins are king of the hill now with no natural predators to hunt them down like the old melee spec archers with MoS 4 or 5.
).Tillbeast wrote: ↑Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:01 PMMost stealthers enjoy the solo game but you can't solo as an archer with how MoS works.
...answer to this question is easy. Assassins kill quickly and are extremely efficient at killing their intended targets...casters and other assassins. Not affected by bubble and huge dps burst ability. Yes sometimes a 10 min purge cloth caster may get a quick cast cc off but what assassin don't take purge itself asap? Now an archer has very limited targets due to the million of defences the game puts in vs archers...bubble, shield block, 15 sec crit immunity after first crit from an arrow, pets not losing target when you stealth, in hunters case a slow ass pet etc. An archer should and does always lose in a fight vs an assassin if caught in melee. With the old MoS archers if they chose could forsake other dps orientated RA's and take MoS hoping it is higher than the assassins MoS and evade them by seeing them first. Yes at really high RR an archer who specs for melee with MoS 5 IP5 and 10min purge was an assassins nightmare but assassins have 2 natural answers to this to counter MoS 5 melee archers....first one being MoS 5, you see each other at same time so you have as much chance of getting that important first blow as your opponent and secondly if its not going well you vanish. Not sayin assassins are easy to play, RA's and RR's are irrelevant if you have no positional awarewess and cannot line up your hits correctlySepplord wrote: ↑Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:24 PMback then?
when back then?
The timeframe between new RAs and TOA was exceptionally small, for the most time "back then" there was no MOS at all...
and like you said, MOS was picked for assassins to counter archers MOS. All MOS did was make it even harder for low RR stealthers to join the stealthwar, and it made all stealther weaker when fighting visible fights (since they had spent RAs on MOS).........my low rr hunter on Mid Perc was rarely killed by other stealthers I just chose the correct RA to avoid other stealthers, first realm points I earned got me MoS 4. I could still kill my intended targets (low rr casters) without dps orientated RA's and avoid the majority of other enemy stealthers. I just used the tools available to me. Pointless complaining when you get uncovered and owned by an MoS 3 assassin when your RA's are aug dex, falcons eye etc
I exclusively played Archer "back then" and when MOS released it was fun for a few days but i soon was wishing for the old system back because it had the exact opposite effect. Stealthgroups were the ones utilizing it the best, because you only needed one of the group to have it and the rest could specc combat-RAs, while the solo-community was kind of forced to also have it or be completely in the dark (literallyTillbeast wrote: ↑Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:01 PMMost stealthers enjoy the solo game but you can't solo as an archer with how MoS works.
Simply untrue, Archers soloed perfectly fine before MOS. An archer job is not to clear milegates or stealth through them alone. I often arrived in Emain and didn't dare to go near the milegate, i would be near on a hill and await my chance. Either ambush someone coming through, then get out of there as fast as i could, and not go there for the next 10-15minutes (usually make a loop toward MMG) because now the assassin are looking for me on that hill. Or await a situation where realmmates/groups are closeby and travel through the milegate together with them.....sorry that quote was meant for solo archers on Pheonix not the old live servers which you could solo on although it was never as easy as soloing with an assassin. On Pheonix archers are pointless until high rr when they can take IP5 and 10 min purge and even then with the way envenom currently works may not be enough.
The archers defense against Assassins is not going into the assassins natural habitat.....we don't have a choice, we both hunt similar targets, cloth casters, we both prefer choke points where enemy cannot manoeuvre and we hang around the edges of the zerg trying to pick off stragglers. We just are always in same area due to our roles. With the new stealth detection rules we cannot avoid you, you always see us first, always hit first and as you are well aware stealther vs stealther more often than not comes down to who sees and hits first.
A question that is consistently being dodged by archers is: if archer VS assasins is balanced for stealth VS stealth encounters, what reason is left to play an assassin over an archer? Why would anyone through away the ability to kill people from afar if their is no substantial benefit to your ability to kill people up close?
Tillbeast wrote: ↑Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:35 PM...answer to this question is easy. Assassins kill quickly and are extremely efficient at killing their intended targets...casters and other assassins. Not affected by bubble and huge dps burst ability. Yes sometimes a 10 min purge cloth caster may get a quick cast cc off but what assassin don't take purge itself asap? Now an archer has very limited targets due to the million of defences the game puts in vs archers...bubble, shield block, 15 sec crit immunity after first crit from an arrow, pets not losing target when you stealth, in hunters case a slow ass pet etc. An archer should and does always lose in a fight vs an assassin if caught in melee. With the old MoS archers if they chose could forsake other dps orientated RA's and take MoS hoping it is higher than the assassins MoS and evade them by seeing them first. Yes at really high RR an archer who specs for melee with MoS 5 IP5 and 10min purge was an assassins nightmare but assassins have 2 natural answers to this to counter MoS 5 melee archers....first one being MoS 5, you see each other at same time so you have as much chance of getting that important first blow as your opponent and secondly if its not going well you vanish. Not sayin assassins are easy to play, RA's and RR's are irrelevant if you have no positional awarewess and cannot line up your hits correctlySepplord wrote: ↑Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:24 PMback then?
when back then?
The timeframe between new RAs and TOA was exceptionally small, for the most time "back then" there was no MOS at all...
and like you said, MOS was picked for assassins to counter archers MOS. All MOS did was make it even harder for low RR stealthers to join the stealthwar, and it made all stealther weaker when fighting visible fights (since they had spent RAs on MOS).........my low rr hunter on Mid Perc was rarely killed by other stealthers I just chose the correct RA to avoid other stealthers, first realm points I earned got me MoS 4. I could still kill my intended targets (low rr casters) without dps orientated RA's and avoid the majority of other enemy stealthers. I just used the tools available to me. Pointless complaining when you get uncovered and owned by an MoS 3 assassin when your RA's are aug dex, falcons eye etc
I exclusively played Archer "back then" and when MOS released it was fun for a few days but i soon was wishing for the old system back because it had the exact opposite effect. Stealthgroups were the ones utilizing it the best, because you only needed one of the group to have it and the rest could specc combat-RAs, while the solo-community was kind of forced to also have it or be completely in the dark (literallyTillbeast wrote: ↑Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:01 PMMost stealthers enjoy the solo game but you can't solo as an archer with how MoS works.
Simply untrue, Archers soloed perfectly fine before MOS. An archer job is not to clear milegates or stealth through them alone. I often arrived in Emain and didn't dare to go near the milegate, i would be near on a hill and await my chance. Either ambush someone coming through, then get out of there as fast as i could, and not go there for the next 10-15minutes (usually make a loop toward MMG) because now the assassin are looking for me on that hill. Or await a situation where realmmates/groups are closeby and travel through the milegate together with them.....sorry that quote was meant for solo archers on Pheonix not the old live servers which you could solo on although it was never as easy as soloing with an assassin. On Pheonix archers are pointless until high rr when they can take IP5 and 10 min purge and even then with the way envenom currently works may not be enough.
The archers defense against Assassins is not going into the assassins natural habitat.....we don't have a choice, we both hunt similar targets, cloth casters, we both prefer choke points where enemy cannot manoeuvre and we hang around the edges of the zerg trying to pick off stragglers. We just are always in same area due to our roles. With the new stealth detection rules we cannot avoid you, you always see us first, always hit first and as you are well aware stealther vs stealther more often than not comes down to who sees and hits first.
A question that is consistently being dodged by archers is: if archer VS assasins is balanced for stealth VS stealth encounters, what reason is left to play an assassin over an archer? Why would anyone through away the ability to kill people from afar if their is no substantial benefit to your ability to kill people up close?
I don't mean to offend you or anyone but complaining about an RA, in this case Mastery of Stealth being used to uncover you when you have available the perfect counter for Mastery of Stealth available is wrong. If you don't choose to take that option and you are then beaten by it then its your fault and the game is working as intended. My Hunter was rarely unstealthed by either visible or stealth teams using MoS because I chose at the expense of other RA's the RA that helped me defend against them.....Mastery of Stealth
Now on phoenix it is very very different. Archers have absolutely zero defence vs an assassin. An assassin with 50 stealth always sees the archer first and I mean always. there is never a situation where an archer can see the assassin first, no RA, no item absolutely nothing. An assassin will always see an archer at 250 units (both have 50 stealth) whereas an archer sees an assassin at 125 units. this make life as an archer ridiculously hard on this server, we are free rps for assassins until we get to high realm rank. The stealth detection radius should be the same for both archer and assassin although minstrel should need to be closer to detect but they have a million ways to deal with a lone stealthier.
Tillbeast wrote: ↑Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:19 PMSaying don't go to choke points (mile gates) is so naive. Yes don't walk up to or near the archway goes without saying. Tell me where in the frontiers thats not the mile gates and nearby areas an archer can find his preferred target and avoid assassins? Answer is there is nowhere. I could hunt in a middle rvr zone like Jamtland and I will not die once to an assassin, however I will kill absolutely nothing as absolutely nothing will be available to kill.
Smart archers do make it more difficult. They do as you do, go high on a hill or hang back further from the archway. That is great tactics and would work bar 1 little problem....Assassins don't stand still they know where the good archer spots are and come looking for them and there is absolutely no defence an archer has against that bar getting lucky. An assassin 100% of the time spots an archer first, always. If an archer sees the assassin it's 100% garaunteed the assassin has already seen the archer unless his monitor is turned off
MoS needs to be reinstated to how it was. If a stealther chooses to ignore the answer to getting spotted they deserve to get repeatedly killed. Yes it kind of forces stealthers to take it but an archer who spends 30 points on MoS can still kill his preferred targets almost as easy as an archer who spends 30 points on dps related realm abilities yet can avoid getting ganked by someone with high MoS.
If the stealth detection rules don't change I fear for the future of the stealth game. There is an obvious answer to how an archer can defend himself from an assassin and that's another archer in group. Better yet a full group of archers. Assassins will soon get fed up of uncloaking an archer who he thinks is alone only to get half a dozen arrows in his back from archers mate's. This will force assassins to group and there goes the solo game which is why most people play stealthers
). )
Here's an experiment for you:Pirhana7 wrote: ↑Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:28 PMI think in most cases the Hunters getting destroyed are because they are not running barrels with their self buffs.
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:28 PMLike another person said unless you get the jump on an enemy assassin with bow shots, The best thing to do is hit them with the Spear anytime chain that snares them (make sure your pet doesn't break it right away) then sprint away for a few seconds and then sick your pet on them. Keep panning to see what they are doing, if they keep chasing just keep running while you pet hurts them, either engage them once you think they are hurt enough or turn and shoot once you think you can finish them off.
Now there are some factors.... Some times you have a Garrot snare keeping you from getting away, you just have to keep trying to land your snare to get away. Sometimes they get away from your pet...
Sometimes while trying to land your snare chain you get some evade chains off and actually win the fight.
I think in most cases the Hunters getting destroyed are because they are not running barrels with their self buffs.
inoeth wrote: ↑Mon 11 Feb 2019 8:08 AMits very sad hunters are so bad here vs assassins... they can simply chose to kill you and you dont have the chance to turn their intention around ;(
lefo wrote: ↑Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:28 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Mon 11 Feb 2019 8:08 AMits very sad hunters are so bad here vs assassins... they can simply chose to kill you and you dont have the chance to turn their intention around ;(
This is not entirelly true. If you have purge and healing potion, you still can do something.
lefo wrote: ↑Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:28 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Mon 11 Feb 2019 8:08 AMits very sad hunters are so bad here vs assassins... they can simply chose to kill you and you dont have the chance to turn their intention around ;(
This is not entirelly true. If you have purge and healing potion, you still can do something.
lefo wrote: ↑Tue 12 Feb 2019 11:47 AMWell, you can also use debuff proc on them. If i attack them from a distance they dont stand a chance neither.
jg777 wrote: ↑Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:58 AMHowever stealth is fine to me, Assassin archtype should be superior to archer archtype in that area.
Gryntrar wrote: ↑Mon 25 Feb 2019 1:32 PMMy Experience from playing Melee-hunter for the past few nights. Currently RR4, with LW-Tireless-Purge2-MoP6 and RA dumping in Aug Dex.
im not fully temped, i have basic understanding of the 1v1 movements and im not running with IP yet, because id rather learn to outplay with a competitive dmg output than outplay and outlast with a 15 min CD.
Yes Assassins/archers are tough, and yes Hunters are the butt of the stealth game right now. But there is no class out there with a 100% win chance pr default.
If the hunter eats the PA and engages with stick+newest anytime spam. yeah you are obviously gonna lose 99.9% of the fights.
Its hard to explain without doing the paper bit.
Step 1) There are ways to not eat the PA every time, an example could be, You see an assassin in stealth, and lord knows he sees you, Do not face him and try to get in the first hit so he f's up his PA, if you do that, you're gonna have a bad time. turn away from that shit.
Step 2) Great, you're now in a fight with a dude who has high evade and wants a piece. first off, you wanna use your Engage ability for the hit-chance (Obviously)
Your aim is to get the back stun, so you line that up, with your engage as a backup, do this while walking into him and back up, (Makes his char turn his back for a short period) .. Did back-stun land? (If no, keep trying, you're dieing here) (If yes, he is losing quite a bit of hp from that followup, and this is a great time to pop a health pot, cos you're still almost dieing). i haven't figure out what to do when the enemy strafes a lot, but still trying stuff out.
Step 3) Repeat the last part of step 2 until /wave or /release
I'm not saying this is easy to win at all, i think i lose 80% fights vs NS and rangers.. but i feel like i eat Infiltrators most of the time (Not sure why). and scout fights are long, but get that pet out before the slam so he cant cheese you with the bow stuff, and its pretty fair from there.
Disclaimer: Eat the PA and you're definitely dead.
I'm not trying to polish the hunter too much, its still a class with massive disadvantages. but its totally doable.. and its much more fun to win a 1v1 vs another stealther knowing that you´re playing the runt of the litter.
you simply deal more dmg to infiltrators.
inoeth wrote: ↑Tue 26 Feb 2019 7:21 AMGryntrar wrote: ↑Mon 25 Feb 2019 1:32 PMMy Experience from playing Melee-hunter for the past few nights. Currently RR4, with LW-Tireless-Purge2-MoP6 and RA dumping in Aug Dex.
im not fully temped, i have basic understanding of the 1v1 movements and im not running with IP yet, because id rather learn to outplay with a competitive dmg output than outplay and outlast with a 15 min CD.
Yes Assassins/archers are tough, and yes Hunters are the butt of the stealth game right now. But there is no class out there with a 100% win chance pr default.
If the hunter eats the PA and engages with stick+newest anytime spam. yeah you are obviously gonna lose 99.9% of the fights.
Its hard to explain without doing the paper bit.
Step 1) There are ways to not eat the PA every time, an example could be, You see an assassin in stealth, and lord knows he sees you, Do not face him and try to get in the first hit so he f's up his PA, if you do that, you're gonna have a bad time. turn away from that shit.
Step 2) Great, you're now in a fight with a dude who has high evade and wants a piece. first off, you wanna use your Engage ability for the hit-chance (Obviously)
Your aim is to get the back stun, so you line that up, with your engage as a backup, do this while walking into him and back up, (Makes his char turn his back for a short period) .. Did back-stun land? (If no, keep trying, you're dieing here) (If yes, he is losing quite a bit of hp from that followup, and this is a great time to pop a health pot, cos you're still almost dieing). i haven't figure out what to do when the enemy strafes a lot, but still trying stuff out.
Step 3) Repeat the last part of step 2 until /wave or /release
I'm not saying this is easy to win at all, i think i lose 80% fights vs NS and rangers.. but i feel like i eat Infiltrators most of the time (Not sure why). and scout fights are long, but get that pet out before the slam so he cant cheese you with the bow stuff, and its pretty fair from there.
Disclaimer: Eat the PA and you're definitely dead.
I'm not trying to polish the hunter too much, its still a class with massive disadvantages. but its totally doable.. and its much more fun to win a 1v1 vs another stealther knowing that you´re playing the runt of the litter.
if you are on the move and running towards an assassins, there is basicly no chance to see them first and turn away. that only works if the assassin is slow. and yes you are right if you dont eat the pa you have a chance to win but its still very rare.
btw its easier to kill infiltrators than ns because of armor resists
Gryntrar wrote: ↑Tue 26 Feb 2019 8:38 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Tue 26 Feb 2019 7:21 AMGryntrar wrote: ↑Mon 25 Feb 2019 1:32 PMMy Experience from playing Melee-hunter for the past few nights. Currently RR4, with LW-Tireless-Purge2-MoP6 and RA dumping in Aug Dex.
im not fully temped, i have basic understanding of the 1v1 movements and im not running with IP yet, because id rather learn to outplay with a competitive dmg output than outplay and outlast with a 15 min CD.
Yes Assassins/archers are tough, and yes Hunters are the butt of the stealth game right now. But there is no class out there with a 100% win chance pr default.
If the hunter eats the PA and engages with stick+newest anytime spam. yeah you are obviously gonna lose 99.9% of the fights.
Its hard to explain without doing the paper bit.
Step 1) There are ways to not eat the PA every time, an example could be, You see an assassin in stealth, and lord knows he sees you, Do not face him and try to get in the first hit so he f's up his PA, if you do that, you're gonna have a bad time. turn away from that shit.
Step 2) Great, you're now in a fight with a dude who has high evade and wants a piece. first off, you wanna use your Engage ability for the hit-chance (Obviously)
Your aim is to get the back stun, so you line that up, with your engage as a backup, do this while walking into him and back up, (Makes his char turn his back for a short period) .. Did back-stun land? (If no, keep trying, you're dieing here) (If yes, he is losing quite a bit of hp from that followup, and this is a great time to pop a health pot, cos you're still almost dieing). i haven't figure out what to do when the enemy strafes a lot, but still trying stuff out.
Step 3) Repeat the last part of step 2 until /wave or /release
I'm not saying this is easy to win at all, i think i lose 80% fights vs NS and rangers.. but i feel like i eat Infiltrators most of the time (Not sure why). and scout fights are long, but get that pet out before the slam so he cant cheese you with the bow stuff, and its pretty fair from there.
Disclaimer: Eat the PA and you're definitely dead.
I'm not trying to polish the hunter too much, its still a class with massive disadvantages. but its totally doable.. and its much more fun to win a 1v1 vs another stealther knowing that you´re playing the runt of the litter.
if you are on the move and running towards an assassins, there is basicly no chance to see them first and turn away. that only works if the assassin is slow. and yes you are right if you dont eat the pa you have a chance to win but its still very rare.
btw its easier to kill infiltrators than ns because of armor resists
My scenario when turning away and not engage the assassin to get the first hit, is obviously in stealth, if you assumed i meant that it was viable when running around visible, then i suggest taking the obvious steps for winning fights firstly. Not running around visible would be the first one, youll get a feel of what the odds are of getting jumped where you are, and you take a calculated risk, but its a free PA --> Win for the assassin as previously mentioned.
inoeth wrote: ↑Tue 26 Feb 2019 10:17 AMGryntrar wrote: ↑Tue 26 Feb 2019 8:38 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Tue 26 Feb 2019 7:21 AMif you are on the move and running towards an assassins, there is basicly no chance to see them first and turn away. that only works if the assassin is slow. and yes you are right if you dont eat the pa you have a chance to win but its still very rare.
btw its easier to kill infiltrators than ns because of armor resists
My scenario when turning away and not engage the assassin to get the first hit, is obviously in stealth, if you assumed i meant that it was viable when running around visible, then i suggest taking the obvious steps for winning fights firstly. Not running around visible would be the first one, youll get a feel of what the odds are of getting jumped where you are, and you take a calculated risk, but its a free PA --> Win for the assassin as previously mentioned.
nono i meant being stealthed too. im pretty sure its the doppler effect, but there was alot of discussion about it and ppl said there was not doppler effect.... maybe its serverlag or something else, but if i run (stealthed) straight towards an assassin, i never! see the pa coming. if it was not like that i would not have complained about that in several threads....
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