Please nerf savages - Phoenix Freeshard

Look around mid groups, everyone groups savages, nothing new about it they can litterally 3 4 shot some tanks
I suggest using dual wield alb formulas, or celtic dual hib, even use Left axe coding and remove the 4 shot system
Even doing so, savages remain stronger than a berserker because off self buffs.

why???
1 left over berserkers can't find groups
2 quad shots are way too strong, even if it doesn't happen all the time
3 harder to stop or peel with high 360° evade, !!! stoicism !!! , self buffs for defense or dmg, don't you think that's just too strong ???
4 Midgard groups already have tons of insta buttons, mezes, stuns, bonedance terrupt dmg, they have celerity, no need to even add a terminator melee that can shredd any tank so nerffing savages won't affect much Rvr balance
5 number one reason most players pick midgard, Savages are op af

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:06 PM by jhaerik

The irony is I'm only looking at the forums while trying to get an RvR group on my savage.

Also everything the Savage does a BM does better. What's your point? You need to look past JUST 1v1 balance as well and look at group comps.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:08 PM by teiloh

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:06 PM
The irony is I'm only looking at the forums while trying to get an RvR group on my savage.

Also everything the Savage does a BM does better. What's your point?

Yes those BM quad hits, 50% evade and parry are too strong!

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:10 PM by jhaerik

Mid Tank group

Warrior
Zerker
Savage
Savage
Skald
Healer
Healer
Shaman

Hib Tank Group

BM (Or Hero)
BM
BM
BM
Warden
Bard
Bard
Druid

What class is OP again exactly?

Hibs get 4 peelers, 4 slams, double sos, and pbt on their tank trains....

Savages can't snare. Savages can't slam and their only stun is a 4 second back stun, and a 9 second 2 part side chain.

Their damage vs other melee is trash tier.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:13 PM by teiloh

What is your argument?

If Hibs had Savages it'd be 4 Savages and not BMs

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:14 PM by jhaerik

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:13 PM
What is your argument?

If Hibs had Savages it'd be 4 Savages and not BMs

My argument is you don't seem to understand the basics of group comps.

If Hib had Savages, they'd still run BM's. BM's get both slam and rear snare, and do similar DPS.

Mid's run Savages simply because that's all we really have with gutted LA damage.

What else we going to run? All skalds? All Warriors?

The best melee train on the server is a Hib group named Doki Doki Club, and they are running 3x BM's. If Savages were as OP as you seem to indicate you'd think it would be a mid group.

The only real imbalance on this server is Caster group vs Melee group. All of the light tanks are pretty well balanced, and all of them tend to roll over caster groups.

If albs would run Mercs they'd have similar luck, but they all too busy running Arms/Sorc/Sorc/Cabby/Theurg/Mins/Cleric/Cleric.

Also the Hib ability to run Warden over Runie/Theurg makes their tank group nociable tougher.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:22 PM by teiloh

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:14 PM
My argument is you don't seem to understand the basics of group comps.

If Hib had Savages, they'd still run BM's. BM's get both slam and rear snare, and do similar DPS.

Mid's run Savages simply because that's all we really have with gutted LA damage.

What else we going to run? All skalds? All Warriors?

1. Ok, so 3 savages and 1 bm/hero
2. No, they wouldn't. Savage do better burst and are much harder to peel.
3. LA isn't gutted, it's does slightly less DPS.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:26 PM by jhaerik

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:22 PM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:14 PM
My argument is you don't seem to understand the basics of group comps.

If Hib had Savages, they'd still run BM's. BM's get both slam and rear snare, and do similar DPS.

Mid's run Savages simply because that's all we really have with gutted LA damage.

What else we going to run? All skalds? All Warriors?

1. Ok, so 3 savages and 1 bm/hero
2. No, they wouldn't. Savage do better burst and are much harder to peel.
3. LA isn't gutted, it's does slightly less DPS.

Again what makes BM's good is their ability to Snare/Slam Savages are much easier to extend/kite. Savages do NOT get a usable Snare, or easily accessible long duration stuns. They also are no harder to peel. They get 50% evade and their tank trains cant run PBT. BM or Savage both typically take 2 hits to peel.

1v1 balance does not equate to 8v8 balance man. Savages do a bit more DPS and have better evade simply because mid gives up far more utility on their tank trains.
If you disease a Savage he isn't doing shit until he gets cured. A BM will continue hitting their target.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:29 PM by keen

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:10 PM
Their damage vs other melee is trash tier.

Svgs outperforme any off tank dps wise with ease on Phoenix, what are you talking about?

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:31 PM by teiloh

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:26 PM
Again what makes BM's good is their ability to Snare/Slam Savages are much easier to extend/kite. Savages do NOT get a usable Snare, or easily accessible long duration stuns. They also are no harder to peel. They get 50% evade and their tank trains cant run PBT. BM or Savage both typically take 2 hits to peel.

1v1 balance does not equate to 8v8 balance man. Savages do a bit more DPS and have better evade simply because mid gives up far more utility on their tank trains.
If you disease a Savage he isn't doing shit until he gets cured. A BM will continue hitting their target.

Your comparative Mid group has 5 melee with significant DPS as well as 400 radius AOE Disease, PBAE Disease, two spread healers/instant healers. You could fit in a Supp Runie somewhere if you wanted to.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:31 PM by Quik

I would trade savages for BM here on Mid any day of the week.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:46 PM by Afuldan

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:31 PM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:26 PM
Again what makes BM's good is their ability to Snare/Slam Savages are much easier to extend/kite. Savages do NOT get a usable Snare, or easily accessible long duration stuns. They also are no harder to peel. They get 50% evade and their tank trains cant run PBT. BM or Savage both typically take 2 hits to peel.

1v1 balance does not equate to 8v8 balance man. Savages do a bit more DPS and have better evade simply because mid gives up far more utility on their tank trains.
If you disease a Savage he isn't doing shit until he gets cured. A BM will continue hitting their target.

Your comparative Mid group has 5 melee with significant DPS as well as 400 radius AOE Disease, PBAE Disease, two spread healers/instant healers. You could fit in a Supp Runie somewhere if you wanted to.

Skald, Warrior, Zerk, Savage, Supp RM. Hib and Alb have Slam on their Light Tanks, Mid does not, so Savage has to do positional stuns or you have your peeler out of position.

The problem I run into with the 3 BM train is that there is that 4th healer compared to our group. Having PBT on a healer class makes Hib groups that run one much tougher to kill. Even with NS runie, group and spreadheals work at full range, and 4 healers is a lot for 1 caster to interupt.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 11:28 PM by Keelia

I can agree with removing stoicism. No clue why savages were the only hybrid to get it, either take it away or give it to thanes and vws

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:10 AM by jhaerik

Keelia wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 11:28 PM
I can agree with removing stoicism. No clue why savages were the only hybrid to get it, either take it away or give it to thanes and vws

Savages aren't a Hybird. They are a light tank. Hybrids have a power bar.

Just like the other realms get a extra caster, Mid gets an extra light tank.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:12 AM by jhaerik

Quik wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:31 PM
I would trade savages for BM here on Mid any day of the week.

So would I. I'd trade Skald, Runie, Zerker, AND Savage, for BM, Warden, and Bard in a heartbeat.

Alb however isn't even in the running.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:28 AM by Quik

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:10 AM
Keelia wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 11:28 PM
I can agree with removing stoicism. No clue why savages were the only hybrid to get it, either take it away or give it to thanes and vws

Savages aren't a Hybird. They are a light tank. Hybrids have a power bar.

Just like the other realms get a extra caster, Mid gets an extra light tank.

This is always what I thought it was meant to be.

Savages were a bonus light tank for the tank realm while Alb and hib got a bonus hybrid.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:41 AM by teiloh

Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:28 AM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:10 AM
Keelia wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 11:28 PM
I can agree with removing stoicism. No clue why savages were the only hybrid to get it, either take it away or give it to thanes and vws

Savages aren't a Hybird. They are a light tank. Hybrids have a power bar.

Just like the other realms get a extra caster, Mid gets an extra light tank.

This is always what I thought it was meant to be.

Savages were a bonus light tank for the tank realm while Alb and hib got a bonus hybrid.

They're a light tank with light tank HPs, stoicism, Evade 4, Assassin-like growth rates, that don't need to double spec their dual wield line, with a hybrid line that puts their effective damage table higher than Warriors and gives them 50% defense from all angles, as well as 47-52% melee resists, on their optimal spec. To top it off their effective double/triple/quad rates give them more hits per minute than any other light tank.

This is what Midgard calls an "unremarkable class"

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:46 AM by Quik

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:41 AM
Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:28 AM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:10 AM
Savages aren't a Hybird. They are a light tank. Hybrids have a power bar.

Just like the other realms get a extra caster, Mid gets an extra light tank.

This is always what I thought it was meant to be.

Savages were a bonus light tank for the tank realm while Alb and hib got a bonus hybrid.

They're a light tank with light tank HPs, stoicism, Evade 4, Assassin-like growth rates, that don't need to double spec their dual wield line, with a hybrid line that puts their effective damage table higher than Warriors and gives them 50% defense from all angles, as well as 47-52% melee resists, on their optimal spec. To top it off their effective double/triple/quad rates give them more hits per minute than any other light tank.

This is what Midgard calls an "unremarkable class"

Who said it was an "unremarkable class"? I consider it our highest DPS melee class and I would STILL trade it in a heartbeat for a BM. I used to like mercs a lot but damn, playing a BM in Hib got me hooked on how awesome they could do almost everything.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:51 AM by teiloh

Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:46 AM
Who said it was an "unremarkable class"? I consider it our highest DPS melee class and I would STILL trade it in a heartbeat for a BM. I used to like mercs a lot but damn, playing a BM in Hib got me hooked on how awesome they could do almost everything.

Mid would hate you if you made that trade. A Savage literally does everything "awesomer" than BM other than melee snare. Stuns, they're close.

Otherwise they do not only more DPS but more burst, they evade 3-4x more, and they take less melee damage and never have end issues.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:59 AM by Quik

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:51 AM
Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:46 AM
Who said it was an "unremarkable class"? I consider it our highest DPS melee class and I would STILL trade it in a heartbeat for a BM. I used to like mercs a lot but damn, playing a BM in Hib got me hooked on how awesome they could do almost everything.

Mid would hate you if you made that trade. A Savage literally does everything "awesomer" than BM other than melee snare. Stuns, they're close.

Otherwise they do not only more DPS but more burst, they evade 3-4x more, and they take less melee damage and never have end issues.

Stuns are close? I'm not an expert on savages but I am well versed on my BM.

Savages have a 4 sec back stun right? BM's have a 9 sec anytime stun. I'm not sure how that is even remotely close.

I have fought a lot of savages on my BM in beta...mind you I said beta...and even though I rarely had 1v1 I could get a good idea about how we did and I would say I would come out on top more often than not.

Yes the Savage has high evade but it didn't seem over the top and I would give that evade up in a heartbeat for a shield ability like the BM has that also gives me a 9 sec anytime stun.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:04 AM by Patron

Midgards privilege are strong mellees.
And thats how it need to be!
Maybe we should stop to qq because a class is nor like the equivalent in other realms.
Classes need to be unique!

When a savage is charging, its better to run or cc him or cast him down.

Never box with a boxer, never wrestle with a wrestler.
And never mellee a midgardian mellee.
Easy right?

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:07 AM by teiloh

Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:59 AM
Stuns are close? I'm not an expert on savages but I am well versed on my BM.

Savages have a 4 sec back stun right? BM's have a 9 sec anytime stun. I'm not sure how that is even remotely close.

I have fought a lot of savages on my BM in beta...mind you I said beta...and even though I rarely had 1v1 I could get a good idea about how we did and I would say I would come out on top more often than not.

Yes the Savage has high evade but it didn't seem over the top and I would give that evade up in a heartbeat for a shield ability like the BM has that also gives me a 9 sec anytime stun.

The Savage backstun is with full Savage weaponskill while Slam is a massive end hog, requires 42 spec in shields, is based entirely off Dex for to-hit. Pretty sure shield weaponskill even for tanks is rather low.

And 44+ h2h Savage has a 2 style 9s stun chain

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:08 AM by teiloh

Patron wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:04 AM
Midgards privilege are strong mellees.
And thats how it need to be!
Maybe we should stop to qq because a class is nor like the equivalent in other realms.
Classes need to be unique!

When a savage is charging, its better to run or cc him or cast him down.

Never box with a boxer, never wrestle with a wrestler.
And never mellee a midgardian mellee.
Easy right?

Mid casters are also strong. BD and SM are very good to god mode depending on what it is you're trying to do. RM is solid, especially for the realm its in.

Healer and Shaman are also S or God Tier support.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 6:36 AM by jhaerik

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:08 AM
Patron wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:04 AM
Midgards privilege are strong mellees.
And thats how it need to be!
Maybe we should stop to qq because a class is nor like the equivalent in other realms.
Classes need to be unique!

When a savage is charging, its better to run or cc him or cast him down.

Never box with a boxer, never wrestle with a wrestler.
And never mellee a midgardian mellee.
Easy right?

Mid casters are also strong. BD and SM are very good to god mode depending on what it is you're trying to do. RM is solid, especially for the realm its in.

Healer and Shaman are also S or God Tier support.

Ahh so you just QQing "I lost to a mid group whining. Waaah"
Got it.

https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=all-time&filter=savage
https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=all-time&filter=blademaster

How about some real world data?
Don't look like Savages are OP to me.

In fact it seems like they are doing ALMOST exactly as well as BM's.
What is the word for that?

"Balance" I believe.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 6:49 AM by teiloh

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 6:36 AM
https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=all-time&filter=savage
https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=all-time&filter=blademaster

How about some real world data?
Don't look like Savages are OP to me.

In fact it seems like they are doing ALMOST exactly as well as BM's.
What is the word for that?

"Balance" I believe.

Oh in that case I guess every class is balanced ... but whoops, you forgot to subtract out the RP bonuses. Mid rarely gets underpop, you know?

Tue 26 Feb 2019 6:53 AM by jhaerik

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 6:49 AM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 6:36 AM
https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=all-time&filter=savage
https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=all-time&filter=blademaster

How about some real world data?
Don't look like Savages are OP to me.

In fact it seems like they are doing ALMOST exactly as well as BM's.
What is the word for that?

"Balance" I believe.

Oh in that case I guess every class is balanced ... but whoops, you forgot to subtract out the RP bonuses. Mid rarely gets underpop, you know?

Thanks for proving my point.

BM's get nearly identical kill stats... WHILE being underpop.

Conclusion?
Nerf BM's
Buff Savages.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 6:56 AM by teiloh

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 6:53 AM
BM's get nearly identical kill stats... WHILE being underpop.

Conclusion?
Nerf BM's
Buff Savages.

2000 vs 1500

"Nearly identical"

Tue 26 Feb 2019 7:52 AM by jhaerik

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 6:56 AM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 6:53 AM
BM's get nearly identical kill stats... WHILE being underpop.

Conclusion?
Nerf BM's
Buff Savages.

2000 vs 1500

"Nearly identical"

23498762347237894 to 23348623984623984

If we are just making up numbers. What are you even talking about?