Charge - A Discussion for Minor Alteration

Good morning,

I am creating this thread to discuss the current, and slight alteration, of the Charge ability accessible to the Light Tank classes.

My proposal is to increase the speed effect of charge by 15%-30%; making no other changes to the ability (I.E. it stays in the Old Frontier version, no CC immunity).

My reasoning for this is quite simple, the relative ease in obtaining perma-sprint.

Currently Charge allows light tanks to "sprint" for the duration of the ability without consuming endurance. This also means that they move at sprint speed. The effectiveness of this ability is inversely proportional to the amount of classes that can obtain permanent sprint. The more classes that can perma-sprint, the less effective the ability becomes. Seeing as virtually every class has access to permanent sprint, it makes charge relatively useless.

I DO NOT want to see the CC immunity features of charge implemented, nor am I requesting that; however, what I would like to see is a small tweak in the speed bonus. This would make the ability slightly more functional (in that it's supposed to be a "charge" towards an enemy).
By slightly increasing the speed bonus of Charge it would slightly aid light tanks in closing the distance on enemies that have access to permanent sprint but do not have access to a base speed.

The reason I wouldn't want the speed bonus of charge to exceed anything higher than 15%-30% is to not nullify the effectiveness of speed classes.

Please comment on pro's and con's to my proposal. I'm looking for a way to make charge somewhat more beneficial without making the ability over powered and assert that adding a 15%-30% bonus to speed would help make this ability useful in certain scenarios (I.E., it would do nothing to use this ability trying to chase down a class running with speed buff) without making it overpowered.

Thank you,
Amp

Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:50 AM by cuuchulain79

In a very broad sense, I think there should be some kind of mobility increase for light tanks. I don't know how far back OF charge goes...but into the days before alchemy I'd guess....so i think from a very early point in the game, Mythic wanted light tanks to have something.

I do think Mythic made changes as the game evolved to keep all classes feeling viable...

Here, and Uthgard 2.0, tanks are great for being in groups...but it's pretty grim to solo. When 1.65 was live, the game play was different...now-a-days the people who still play are pretty aware that any class with a snare nuke, or disease, or insta snare, can beat any tank with a bit of patience.

There's really nothing in this game to beat a kiting stradegy (for tanks). I think it's obvious Mythic made changes to combat this...

I also think there is a large area between an "I-Win-Button" and a counter to kiting ability.

Regarding a simple speed burst (like what Rangers/Hunters get): I think this could work, although I'm not exactly sure how it would translate to what breaks speed here...as in...if the ability is used....is it fair for an insta stat debuff to drop it?

Another idea: NF charge but w/o the speed boost...just immunity to movement reducing effects.

I would also be totally fine with more powerful abilities being possible for tanks....even if they required realm skill points. Just something to feel viable & shake up the kiting meta that classic DAoC has become (at least in the solo world).

Maybe this is longwinded (lol, pun) but I've seen this soloing meta game for 2 years on Uthgard and it gets stagnant really quick. In 1.65 there were all kinds of people running around solo late at night, fighting...having fun...and that really hasn't blossomed again.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:12 PM by Amp_Phetamine

cuuchulain79 wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:50 AM
In a very broad sense, I think there should be some kind of mobility increase for light tanks. I don't know how far back OF charge goes...but into the days before alchemy I'd guess....so i think from a very early point in the game, Mythic wanted light tanks to have something.

I do think Mythic made changes as the game evolved to keep all classes feeling viable...

Here, and Uthgard 2.0, tanks are great for being in groups...but it's pretty grim to solo. When 1.65 was live, the game play was different...now-a-days the people who still play are pretty aware that any class with a snare nuke, or disease, or insta snare, can beat any tank with a bit of patience.

There's really nothing in this game to beat a kiting stradegy (for tanks). I think it's obvious Mythic made changes to combat this...

I also think there is a large area between an "I-Win-Button" and a counter to kiting ability.

Regarding a simple speed burst (like what Rangers/Hunters get): I think this could work, although I'm not exactly sure how it would translate to what breaks speed here...as in...if the ability is used....is it fair for an insta stat debuff to drop it?

Another idea: NF charge but w/o the speed boost...just immunity to movement reducing effects.

I would also be totally fine with more powerful abilities being possible for tanks....even if they required realm skill points. Just something to feel viable & shake up the kiting meta that classic DAoC has become (at least in the solo world).

Maybe this is longwinded (lol, pun) but I've seen this soloing meta game for 2 years on Uthgard and it gets stagnant really quick. In 1.65 there were all kinds of people running around solo late at night, fighting...having fun...and that really hasn't blossomed again.

I agree with your post; tanks are going to have a hell of a tough time making it in the solo against anything that has kiting potential. But this is how it should be in my opinion. Yes it's horrifically annoying getting DD kited to death, especially if you're too far away from a safe haven, but that's only possible if the opponent plays to their strengths and doesn't make a mistake.

I claim that increasing the speed bonus for charge while leaving it as is in terms of no CC immunity would fit perfectly with patch 1.65 without resulting in an exponential power surge to melee dps groups.

All this would do is give the tank a chance to close in on an opponent IF the ability is utilized effectively, therefore the skill/knowledge factor is of more value than the ability itself as it can still be countered; if the CC function was implemented the only way to counter that would be with SoS and especially in this patch level adding the CC immunity to charge would be far over the top and unnecessary.

I think this is a very agreeable concept that the developers can look into as being slightly beneficial to light tanks but far from an excessive advantage from where they currently stand today.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:19 PM by Sepplord

something to keep in mind is that giving something like this to lighttanks, makes valewalkers/champs/thanes/etc... less viable for the melee-train again

Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:34 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:19 PM
something to keep in mind is that giving something like this to lighttanks, makes valewalkers/champs/thanes/etc... less viable for the melee-train again

I disagree as all three of those classes have ranged interrupt capabilities, debuffs and snare (champs) and ranged castable/instant dps (valewalkers/thanes/champ insta DD). All three of those hybrid tanks have the ability to strategically deal with kiting attempts. Light tanks (and Heavy tanks but that's a discussion for a different thread) have no capability in terms of dealing with kiting (unless you craft and apply a ranged DD proc onto an item for a single use interrupt).

Also, I am not requesting charge to be turned into an "I win" button. I've never been a fan of simplifying abilities while simultaneously increasing their effectiveness. By slightly increasing the speed bonus of charge from base sprint speed this will give Light tanks the ability to close in on an opponent that is trying to flee. Since the CC function will remain as is, it's still highly counter-able via mezz, root, snare and stun.

What this would require is situational awareness in when to use charge to be most effective. The current problem with charge is simply the speed function. Due to the relative ease in obtaining permanent sprint, having an ability that allows you to move at sprint speed without using endo is essentially redundant as 90%+ of players obtain permanent sprint immediately.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:45 PM by Sepplord

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:34 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:19 PM
something to keep in mind is that giving something like this to lighttanks, makes valewalkers/champs/thanes/etc... less viable for the melee-train again

I disagree as all three of those classes have ranged interrupt capabilities, debuffs and snare (champs) and ranged castable/instant dps (valewalkers/thanes/champ insta DD). All three of those hybrid tanks have the ability to strategically deal with kiting attempts. Light tanks (and Heavy tanks but that's a discussion for a different thread) have no capability in terms of dealing with kiting (unless you craft and apply a ranged DD proc onto an item for a single use interrupt).

Also, I am not requesting charge to be turned into an "I win" button. I've never been a fan of simplifying abilities while simultaneously increasing their effectiveness. By slightly increasing the speed bonus of charge from base sprint speed this will give Light tanks the ability to close in on an opponent that is trying to flee. Since the CC function will remain as is, it's still highly counter-able via mezz, root, snare and stun.

What this would require is situational awareness in when to use charge to be most effective. The current problem with charge is simply the speed function. Due to the relative ease in obtaining permanent sprint, having an ability that allows you to move at sprint speed without using endo is essentially redundant as 90%+ of players obtain permanent sprint immediately.

i agree with everything you said, but i don't think it contradicts what i wanted to remind off

Currently light tanks are viable for groups, or are only the hybrids taken?
In such a situation, making one option stronger will take away from the viability of the other. The might work fine in itself, but there is an option that was equally viable before, that just got buffed. No matter how you turn it, buffing one class is similar in effect as nerfing all others (and vice versa)

Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:54 PM by merry75

Add charge , you give bg and speedwarps, simple as that

Thu 21 Feb 2019 4:11 PM by Amp_Phetamine

merry75 wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:54 PM
Add charge , you give bg and speedwarps, simple as that

Charge is already in the game. Currently it functions as an endurance-less sprint. The point I made was that due to permanent sprint already being easily accessible, charge currently serves no function.

What I proposed is to slightly increase the speed bonus of charge. The example I gave was within the realm of 15%-30% increase in speed. The reason I requested a small speed bonus was to slightly improve the capability of closing in on an opponent without negatively effecting base speed classes capability of escaping. I also requested to keep charge in the OF version in which it does not make one immune to CC.

Did you read anything above prior to posting? Speed warps and Body guard have no role nor purpose in this conversation.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 4:15 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:45 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:34 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:19 PM
something to keep in mind is that giving something like this to lighttanks, makes valewalkers/champs/thanes/etc... less viable for the melee-train again

I disagree as all three of those classes have ranged interrupt capabilities, debuffs and snare (champs) and ranged castable/instant dps (valewalkers/thanes/champ insta DD). All three of those hybrid tanks have the ability to strategically deal with kiting attempts. Light tanks (and Heavy tanks but that's a discussion for a different thread) have no capability in terms of dealing with kiting (unless you craft and apply a ranged DD proc onto an item for a single use interrupt).

Also, I am not requesting charge to be turned into an "I win" button. I've never been a fan of simplifying abilities while simultaneously increasing their effectiveness. By slightly increasing the speed bonus of charge from base sprint speed this will give Light tanks the ability to close in on an opponent that is trying to flee. Since the CC function will remain as is, it's still highly counter-able via mezz, root, snare and stun.

What this would require is situational awareness in when to use charge to be most effective. The current problem with charge is simply the speed function. Due to the relative ease in obtaining permanent sprint, having an ability that allows you to move at sprint speed without using endo is essentially redundant as 90%+ of players obtain permanent sprint immediately.

i agree with everything you said, but i don't think it contradicts what i wanted to remind off

Currently light tanks are viable for groups, or are only the hybrids taken?
In such a situation, making one option stronger will take away from the viability of the other. The might work fine in itself, but there is an option that was equally viable before, that just got buffed. No matter how you turn it, buffing one class is similar in effect as nerfing all others (and vice versa)

Ah, I understand the point you were making; however, I disagree that such a small change to the charge ability would have any effect whatsoever in the hybrid tanks roles as their roles are not parallel to begin with.

Light tanks roles are prioritized as DPS, DPS and DPS/peel if absolutely required.

Hybrid tanks are more important in terms of interrupt, peel, collapse/assist dps on the light tanks target.

Altering charge in the way I recommended would have no impact on a hybrid tanks utility. It'll simply give the light tank a slightly better chance to close in on a target if they utilize it effectively.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 5:05 PM by Amp_Phetamine

I'd like to bump this to gather some more opinions regarding a slight increase to the charge speed.

Looking for both pro's and con's to this suggestion.

If their is a moderator or developer that would like to comment on the subject that'd be greatly appreciated as well!

I understand there are more pressing issues to be resolved and other classes require more resources; this is, in my opinion, a very small tweak that should also be considered!

Thank you,
Amp

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:14 PM by teiloh

just to clarify, this wouldn't apply to Savages, right? Because they're overshadowing Berserkers in almost every way.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:18 PM by Amp_Phetamine

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:14 PM
just to clarify, this wouldn't apply to Savages, right? Because they're overshadowing Berserkers in almost every way.

That is correct. This would only apply to Mercenaries, Blademasters and Berserkers.

Sun 24 Feb 2019 5:12 PM by Amp_Phetamine

I am very confident that a slight increase to the speed bonus of charge, while keeping the CC function as is, would be very beneficial for this ability and make it slightly more effective.

Sun 24 Feb 2019 5:23 PM by Steelhead23rus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:45 PM
i agree with everything you said, but i don't think it contradicts what i wanted to remind off

Currently light tanks are viable for groups, or are only the hybrids taken?
In such a situation, making one option stronger will take away from the viability of the other. The might work fine in itself, but there is an option that was equally viable before, that just got buffed. No matter how you turn it, buffing one class is similar in effect as nerfing all others (and vice versa)

I have to disagree with this. RIght now is only caster game and as i said in another post, tanks are forced to go solo cause every group brobably need just one for peeling. When pop is about 50/50 where these 50% of caster still can find a grp and get to a good fights, tanks have to do nothing or build a melee train which is going to be kited to death with any good caster grp.

So at this point giving something like that to a lighttanks will bring them back to groups(hopefully) and make rvr balanced(many people talk about balance but nobody of them see that the game is Dark Age of Casters at this moment). I simply want to see balanced groups with melee/casters as i play a melee and its hella hard to find a grp to play with...

Simple points, i hope people are smart enough to understand that right now its not even close to a BALANCE they talking about..

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:39 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Any moderators or developers able to offer their input into the current functionality of charge? I'd like to hear some more suggestions and opinions about how OF charge fairs in the current meta.

As I've stated before it needs to be improved slightly. The only benefit of this ability is to move at sprint speed without endurance loss (which is already covered with LW1, Tireless 1 and Endurance Regen).

Please consider slightly increasing the speed bonus of charge.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 4:00 PM by Seige

Would love to see this implemented.. But I would curl into a ball with fear if it was applied to savages.. Dear god I rather it not be implemented than there be any chance that savages could get ahold of this. Could you imagine?

Tue 26 Feb 2019 5:21 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Seige wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 4:00 PM
Would love to see this implemented.. But I would curl into a ball with fear if it was applied to savages.. Dear god I rather it not be implemented than there be any chance that savages could get ahold of this. Could you imagine?

Agree'd. However, savages do no have access to charge

. So it would only be applicable to Mercenaries, Blade Masters and Berserkers