WARDEN/PALADIN/THANE - proposal's

i think this needs its own section.
these hybrid classes got hit with nerf's that effected other tank classes as well as these 3.

however, these particular classes are, in terms of pvp effectiveness, no where near as useful as armsmen/champion/warrior/reaver/beserker/valewalker/etc...
quit simply these 3 were the original intended "hybrid tank" classes. they have been hit by widespread nurfs effecting all other melee classes, while these 3 just get lumped in over and over again.

A Paladin's Perspective:
now my particular complain argument is for the shield spec'd paladin, once the block rate cap decreased to 60%, the effectiveness of the class was reduced a lot, as the dps side of paladin is mostly useless as other classess do it better, the utility niche of the paladin's chants are also further made useless with the advent of alchemy tradeskill.

the argument people have made in the past with regards to block rate is that it is a passive effect which is not to say it lends any skill to the gameplay in pvp combat.
so to the overworked underpaid paladin's - thats it huh? run 16chants continuously so people dont cry, and while we are being told "there is something we are doing that is lazy" seriously??... while trying to get positional's off as an option depending on what you do or like to do.

these hybrid classes need serious work, but adding more crap to the workload of stuff we already have is a bad idea also.
also adding more stuff for us to be less useful would also be a silly option.
now, i cant speak on the thane's behalf, they seem more dps focused, but for the warden and the paladin, being more defensive focused innately why not have something like Determination group ward, or added into a chant, heck for that i wouldnt mind having a 17th chant over.

but THIS particular case of (thane/warden/paladin) being less effective has been made over and over again over the course of many many years.
while we take nurfs, we are being told we dont perform well. - then why are we taking these nurfs? its not because we're OP LOL! FAR FROM IT! LOL!

we're not bad in pve, pretty good some of us are awesome. but this is a pvp oriented game, so i dont want to hear this point being raised either.
we're not number 1 either, like we used to be in pve prior to the SI classes. (necro, animist, bonedancer.)

so as new additions to the game pour in over time, over every single patch, those 3 classes, get pushed to the bottom over and over.
to repetitively being told "your not good enough, here this nurf's for you

" yes, with a smile...

if you dont believe me, look at the evolution of this game, from the beginning, and look at every patch. every expansion, every bonus, every nurf.
it has all resulted in 1 thing, pushing these 3 down, while others rise.

we have been on the repeat plz nurf me list.

once upon a time, number1 in pve. now we're... somewhere in the bottom QUARTER of choices in a group.
yes, part of this is due to player education, not knowing how useful a well played paladin can be.
how useful someone who is used to typing fuor hnudred wrods per mniute in group can be.
someone willing to work his @#$ off to make a group do well. - yet receive the same annoying comments with regards to being a less desirable class.

i hope i made my case pretty clear, and i hope someone gives it some serious thought.

i would like to hear more about this from a Warden's and a Thane's perspective as well. - because we all got boned equally.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:40 AM by cuuchulain79

This came off as more of a rant to me...nothing wrong with that...I just don't see much meat in the post...

Speaking of, 'another class can do xyz better' I think that's just sort of the thing about hybrids...if a pally threw down DPS like a merc...what is a Merc for?

Regarding the 60% block cap...is this a recent change...I thought it was in the original game...isn't this already only feasible with MoBlock 6-7? At least pallys have 2.5 spec points here and can go 50 shield without missing much from a group perspective (along with only warr or hero)

Regarding shields in general...they're strong here...only 25% def-pen from dual wield attacks...

All three classes you mentioned get 55/22 det here...that's strong

Regarding alchemy...I don't think blue endo is enough for alb tanks...it's not a pally in a bottle.

I've not played a pally here...but does switching chants not cost endo (like skald songs/shouts don't here) because that's another dose of loving for the pally.

It sounds like you've just been grouping with snarky people who need to blame someone if they wipe.

On another note...you left champs off this list, did their debuffs get tuned up so high that they're satisfied with so much pally and thane love?

Fri 15 Feb 2019 6:30 AM by rubaduck

I don't understand why you add warden in the clump of hybrids. Warden isn't an underdog... at all.

Warden has garbage growth rate on their attacks, but they were never thought of being a full on offensive character on it's own. As it stands now, the bard is more offensive due to the fact that they have more utility while wardens are as they are intended: utility healers. They provide great defensive utilities in their resist buffs that makes body train groups more ineffective against hibernia groups (caster, melee and hybrid), they provide PBT which is a fantastic defensive tool for any groups, as well as strong single target heals, as well as amazing peeling abilities as well as their other chants.

You can't justify more damage on a class like that, and it won't need it either. You can't balance the class on their damage in solo when they a) have a damage add chant. b) have heals and c) have defensive utilities to boos stats. They need to be balanced in terms of synergies, which is why they were given determination. They haven't gotten shield spec here, which is both fine with me and also something I would love to see the devs add as it will create much more versatility in their builds. Wardens are team player classes, that is utter "¤(%T solo right now. Even one of the top RR on the server is a warden, and that alone proves the point that they are usable, just not as solo.

Paladins has always been a mess, and I wouldn't bet money that they will be fixed to a level where they are considered a "needed" class. Alchemy did not break the class, if that was the case then bards woultn't need to twist during fights either but since the devs increased endo consumtion on styles it would create incentive to add paladins to groups... they also removed endo 4 pots, nerfed omni reg pots to have 3 endo, and only gave the option to get Tireless 1 RA. Paladins are still unusable, so that argument is dead. The class is a mess because it doesn't really have a good narrative in terms of how to classify them. They aren't full tanks, they aren't fully utility classes they are in between. You can't buff their damage to the level of merc/arms because that will make them redundant and you can't turn them into that "albion warden" because of the similarities. Mythic couldn't help it, which is proof enough that the class is missing context.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 7:38 AM by thurisaz

cuuchulain79 wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:40 AM
This came off as more of a rant to me...nothing wrong with that...I just don't see much meat in the post...

Speaking of, 'another class can do xyz better' I think that's just sort of the thing about hybrids...if a pally threw down DPS like a merc...what is a Merc for?

Regarding the 60% block cap...is this a recent change...I thought it was in the original game...isn't this already only feasible with MoBlock 6-7? At least pallys have 2.5 spec points here and can go 50 shield without missing much from a group perspective (along with only warr or hero)

Regarding shields in general...they're strong here...only 25% def-pen from dual wield attacks...

All three classes you mentioned get 55/22 det here...that's strong

Regarding alchemy...I don't think blue endo is enough for alb tanks...it's not a pally in a bottle.

I've not played a pally here...but does switching chants not cost endo (like skald songs/shouts don't here) because that's another dose of loving for the pally.

It sounds like you've just been grouping with snarky people who need to blame someone if they wipe.

On another note...you left champs off this list, did their debuffs get tuned up so high that they're satisfied with so much pally and thane love?

agreed , there's nothing wrong with paladins as a plate wearing hybrid , its been the strongest class in daoc for the past 15 years ..15years!

while i cant speak for 1.65, I would never utilize anything other than 2hand pally anyways , slam is not a paladins role, especially if dps is expected afterwards . give me a break! but, unfortunately , paladins cannot spec 50 chants 42shield 50-2hand.

they can spec 50chants 44-2hand, 26+shield though.
OP is dumb!!!

OP is trying to play like armsman, and he's right to get insulted by groups, because hes quite frankly a fucking clueless idiot. Paladins have 2jobs, twist chants and 2 hand styles , thats it.
2hand is good dps.

wardens ? have always been the most useless daoc class nothing new there , cant imagine how utterly horrible they are in 1.65 , if not pure heal warden.

thanes, seem fine ..dont they still have ragnarok and 8sec slam? how is that a nerf? thanez should be strong as reavers.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 7:49 AM by thurisaz

Drakuz wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 9:21 PM
i think this needs its own section.
these hybrid classes got hit with nerf's that effected other tank classes as well as these 3.

however, these particular classes are, in terms of pvp effectiveness, no where near as useful as armsmen/champion/warrior/reaver/beserker/valewalker/etc...
quit simply these 3 were the original intended "hybrid tank" classes. they have been hit by widespread nurfs effecting all other melee classes, while these 3 just get lumped in over and over again.

A Paladin's Perspective:
now my particular complain argument is for the shield spec'd paladin, once the block rate cap decreased to 60%, the effectiveness of the class was reduced a lot, as the dps side of paladin is mostly useless as other classess do it better, the utility niche of the paladin's chants are also further made useless with the advent of alchemy tradeskill.

the argument people have made in the past with regards to block rate is that it is a passive effect which is not to say it lends any skill to the gameplay in pvp combat.
so to the overworked underpaid paladin's - thats it huh? run 16chants continuously so people dont cry, and while we are being told "there is something we are doing that is lazy" seriously??... while trying to get positional's off as an option depending on what you do or like to do.

these hybrid classes need serious work, but adding more crap to the workload of stuff we already have is a bad idea also.
also adding more stuff for us to be less useful would also be a silly option.
now, i cant speak on the thane's behalf, they seem more dps focused, but for the warden and the paladin, being more defensive focused innately why not have something like Determination group ward, or added into a chant, heck for that i wouldnt mind having a 17th chant over.

but THIS particular case of (thane/warden/paladin) being less effective has been made over and over again over the course of many many years.
while we take nurfs, we are being told we dont perform well. - then why are we taking these nurfs? its not because we're OP LOL! FAR FROM IT! LOL!

we're not bad in pve, pretty good some of us are awesome. but this is a pvp oriented game, so i dont want to hear this point being raised either.
we're not number 1 either, like we used to be in pve prior to the SI classes. (necro, animist, bonedancer.)

so as new additions to the game pour in over time, over every single patch, those 3 classes, get pushed to the bottom over and over.
to repetitively being told "your not good enough, here this nurf's for you " yes, with a smile...

if you dont believe me, look at the evolution of this game, from the beginning, and look at every patch. every expansion, every bonus, every nurf.
it has all resulted in 1 thing, pushing these 3 down, while others rise.

we have been on the repeat plz nurf me list.

once upon a time, number1 in pve. now we're... somewhere in the bottom QUARTER of choices in a group.
yes, part of this is due to player education, not knowing how useful a well played paladin can be.
how useful someone who is used to typing fuor hnudred wrods per mniute in group can be.
someone willing to work his @#$ off to make a group do well. - yet receive the same annoying comments with regards to being a less desirable class.

i hope i made my case pretty clear, and i hope someone gives it some serious thought.

i would like to hear more about this from a Warden's and a Thane's perspective as well. - because we all got boned equally.

paladins aren't less than desirable , until you try to play it like an armsman.
nothing wrong with paladins, learn to spec and play it how it's supposed to be played in order to be appreciated by groups.

quit speccing 42 shield and trying to play like one ! paladins role is 26shield minimum for rear stun..50 chants , and 2hand. paladins have much damage from 2hand, or quit crying and play armsman.

wardens are support class first, battelwarden second , not hard to spec for peeling + healing
with dps , altho warden in patch 1.65 = most useless class in game , but warden is always useless in daoc .

Fri 15 Feb 2019 7:56 AM by mik

Please buff thanes, I don't feel equal to Thor yet.

In all seriousness:

This seems to be a rant about paladins only, just as others have stated before. Thane feels really strong, the class just doesn't fit every style of play.
The phoenix changes for the class helped a lot already, don't think they need even more buffs, because then you'd quickly see a lot of thanes.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:05 AM by Redattack

I can't speak for Wardens/Thanes as I haven't played either one at any point beyond I50 in beta for a short time, but regarding Pallies, I'll suggest a few things that will perhaps be a bit unpopular, but I think would put them in a better position overall in RvR.

I would propose the following changes, or a combination of them:

-End chant twisting entirely. Just let them all be up at once. At the end of the day everyone twists and has the chants up constantly anyway, all that forcing us to twist does is increase my odds of getting carpal tunnel trying to keep the damn endo chant up to maintain permasprint without losing power.
-Remove the resist chants entirely, add a group magic resist buff instead. The idea here is that it wouldn't be near as good as what a Friar/Cleric could provide, but enough that it would be a benefit to a group that doesn't have a Friar/Enhance spec Cleric.
-Add castable heals. Once again, heals wouldn't be anything like what a properly specced Friar/Cleric could offer, but enough to keep a few people alive in the event that the main healer(s) go down, much like Paladins in any other RPG. Alternatively, give Pally styles light group heal procs similar to what Friars had at one point.
-Add a speed chant that provides the equivalent of caster/hastener speed.
-Add a light haste/celerity buff to the damage add, or as it's own chant. Not anything as drastic as 37% like on live, but I think a 10-15% celerity would be enough to have something to offer for the group's melee classes.

The overall idea of these changes is primarily to turn Paladins from what they are now, into what is essentially a jack of all trades/master of none kind of deal by providing general utility, while also giving them a small niche to fill with the celerity buff in melee groups. These changes provide a Pally with more value/utility in all different playstyles. In general PvE/RvR groups, they would be able to substitute for a tank, healer, and speed class, while at the same time not negating the need for a dedicated tank/healer/speed class. They also would be much more desirable in melee groups for the celerity buff niche they can fill. During keep sieges, they are given something to do as a backup healer, beyond being an emergency rezzer or handling the rare wall-climber. And in addition to all that, they become a more viable, visible solo class.

Again, I want to reiterate and emphasize that none of the above additions/changes would/should be so powerful that they would negate the need for any other class in a group. A Pally with heals should never be the main healer like a Cleric would. A Pally with speed should never negate the need for a Minstrel, much like a Theurgist wouldn't be grouped for their speed buff. These changes are intended to make Paladins a more well-rounded generalist sort of class that has its own appeal to groups and use in any scenario, without making any other class redundant or otherwise unnecessary. And of course, keep young Paladins like my self from twisting that dang endo chant and getting carpal tunnel. Seriously, having to spam that thing to run anywhere hurts my hand and I'd at the very least like to see that changed.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:53 PM by cuuchulain79

All chants up at once...castable heals...resist buffs....speed chant...celerity chant...

It sounds like the paladin Bethesda would have come up with :-)

Fri 15 Feb 2019 7:21 PM by Fk_

It's lacking the ability to charm a player for 10 mns

Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:30 PM by Pirhana7

Drakuz wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 9:21 PM
i think this needs its own section.
these hybrid classes got hit with nerf's that effected other tank classes as well as these 3.

however, these particular classes are, in terms of pvp effectiveness, no where near as useful as armsmen/champion/warrior/reaver/beserker/valewalker/etc...
quit simply these 3 were the original intended "hybrid tank" classes. they have been hit by widespread nurfs effecting all other melee classes, while these 3 just get lumped in over and over again.

A Paladin's Perspective:
now my particular complain argument is for the shield spec'd paladin, once the block rate cap decreased to 60%, the effectiveness of the class was reduced a lot, as the dps side of paladin is mostly useless as other classess do it better, the utility niche of the paladin's chants are also further made useless with the advent of alchemy tradeskill.

the argument people have made in the past with regards to block rate is that it is a passive effect which is not to say it lends any skill to the gameplay in pvp combat.
so to the overworked underpaid paladin's - thats it huh? run 16chants continuously so people dont cry, and while we are being told "there is something we are doing that is lazy" seriously??... while trying to get positional's off as an option depending on what you do or like to do.

these hybrid classes need serious work, but adding more crap to the workload of stuff we already have is a bad idea also.
also adding more stuff for us to be less useful would also be a silly option.
now, i cant speak on the thane's behalf, they seem more dps focused, but for the warden and the paladin, being more defensive focused innately why not have something like Determination group ward, or added into a chant, heck for that i wouldnt mind having a 17th chant over.

but THIS particular case of (thane/warden/paladin) being less effective has been made over and over again over the course of many many years.
while we take nurfs, we are being told we dont perform well. - then why are we taking these nurfs? its not because we're OP LOL! FAR FROM IT! LOL!

we're not bad in pve, pretty good some of us are awesome. but this is a pvp oriented game, so i dont want to hear this point being raised either.
we're not number 1 either, like we used to be in pve prior to the SI classes. (necro, animist, bonedancer.)

so as new additions to the game pour in over time, over every single patch, those 3 classes, get pushed to the bottom over and over.
to repetitively being told "your not good enough, here this nurf's for you " yes, with a smile...

if you dont believe me, look at the evolution of this game, from the beginning, and look at every patch. every expansion, every bonus, every nurf.
it has all resulted in 1 thing, pushing these 3 down, while others rise.

we have been on the repeat plz nurf me list.

once upon a time, number1 in pve. now we're... somewhere in the bottom QUARTER of choices in a group.
yes, part of this is due to player education, not knowing how useful a well played paladin can be.
how useful someone who is used to typing fuor hnudred wrods per mniute in group can be.
someone willing to work his @#$ off to make a group do well. - yet receive the same annoying comments with regards to being a less desirable class.

i hope i made my case pretty clear, and i hope someone gives it some serious thought.

i would like to hear more about this from a Warden's and a Thane's perspective as well. - because we all got boned equally.

I think you need to EDIT this post and replace Wardens with Champions, Champions are Hibs Hybrid fighter that is equal to Thanes, and Palys. Wardens are a different hybrid healer/fighter that would be in the same group as Friars. Warden are very much group friendly because of their, group resists, buffs, and heals.

Sat 16 Feb 2019 2:04 AM by Drakuz

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:30 PM
I think you need to EDIT this post and replace Wardens with Champions, Champions are Hibs Hybrid fighter that is equal to Thanes, and Palys. Wardens are a different hybrid healer/fighter that would be in the same group as Friars. Warden are very much group friendly because of their, group resists, buffs, and heals.

yep that makes sense