Stealthed group members - Phoenix Freeshard

Would love it if we could see our Group members while stealthed at any distance. Really annoying if someone wonders off and you have no idea where they are.

Is this a possibility?

Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:28 PM by Zansobar

Toddola wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:40 PM
Would love it if we could see our Group members while stealthed at any distance. Really annoying if someone wonders off and you have no idea where they are.

Is this a possibility?

Would create a huge increase in the number of stealth groups. Maybe that's something the devs want?

Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:33 PM by rubaduck

The good old /groundassist <name> works like charm.

Just find a spot, hold F5, ask everyone to ground assist and that's the meetup point. I doubt you move vast distances stealthed.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:00 AM by The Skies Asunder

It is definitely annoying not seeing your stealth group mates from clip distance. The ground assist macro is helpful, and voice chat obviously makes things easier, but I would still like to see the visibility of group members added in.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:14 AM by Isavyr

I agree with this because it's a huge QOL, but I think stealther zergs have always been a problem and this should be countered.

Even though there are anti-stealther pots, I think they're only a half-measure. I would love to see something like this: the more stealthers in an area, the worse the stealth gets. For example, -3 composite stealth level to a stealther for every other stealther within 600 units of them. In this scenario, if you had 4 nightshades waiting to PA someone at a gate choke-point, instead of the typical 50 composite stealth, they'd have only composite 41 stealth.

Not that an idea needs a realistic narrative, but this idea does have one: The more stealthers shuffling about an area, the more conspicuous it becomes.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:36 AM by Kronin

Do not run in large groups but for duo we use the old school gt

/macro GT /groundset 100

/macro Krycek /groundassist Krycek (this one shows gt for Krycek)

You can use the GTs to see where your grouped stealther is.

Hope this helps

Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:43 AM by Joc

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:14 AM
I agree with this because it's a huge QOL, but I think stealther zergs have always been a problem and this should be countered.

Even though there are anti-stealther pots, I think they're only a half-measure. I would love to see something like this: the more stealthers in an area, the worse the stealth gets. For example, -3 composite stealth level to a stealther for every other stealther within 600 units of them. In this scenario, if you had 4 nightshades waiting to PA someone at a gate choke-point, instead of the typical 50 composite stealth, they'd have only composite 41 stealth.

Not that an idea needs a realistic narrative, but this idea does have one: The more stealthers shuffling about an area, the more conspicuous it becomes.

How about the more healers In an area reduces healing. Maybe the more shield tanks in an area reduces slam duration or block %. Maybe the more casters in an area reducing CC duration or casting damage? It better yet, the more visible classes in an area reduces overall effectiveness of their damage and defense.

See what I'm getting at? Do you see how damaging this is to a class? Its unwise to penalize people for grouping in an MMORPG no matter what the class. Stealthers don't get groups with a typical 8 man. They are of very little interest in the zerg other than Intel reports. If we implemented a stealth area nerf for increased stealthers in an area you would effectively ban them from keep seige or large scale rvr. Their stealth line is what makes them what they are. It is their top effective defense and largely tied to their ability to do damage. The reason I say that is because they are weak if they don't get the initial surprise on you.

Ask any caster that has ever caught a stealthers out in the open how quickly they fall. Ask any DPS class that pops a stealthers out of stealth without them using openers how easily they die.

This idea has been brought up countless times over the years and there is a reason it has not been implemented.

That being said I know how bad the stealth zergs can get. I also know that many stealthers wish to play by themselves. From experience, changing the stealth code will add to more stealth groups if you can see other group members. To some that's ok, and to others that's not.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:39 AM by Isavyr

Joc wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:43 AM
How about the more healers In an area reduces healing. Maybe the more shield tanks in an area reduces slam duration or block %. Maybe the more casters in an area reducing CC duration or casting damage? It better yet, the more visible classes in an area reduces overall effectiveness of their damage and defense.

Those are different because of the way stealth is designed. Stealth in DAOC has two problems: 1) It lacks any signature (it's generally impossible to know even if a stealther is nearby) and 2) There aren't any reliable counters to stealth. So more stealthers exaggerates these issues.

Joc wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:43 AM
Ask any caster that has ever caught a stealthers out in the open how quickly they fall. Ask any DPS class that pops a stealthers out of stealth without them using openers how easily they die.

I'm well-aware but that's a separate issue, imo.

Joc wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:43 AM
That being said I know how bad the stealth zergs can get. I also know that many stealthers wish to play by themselves. From experience, changing the stealth code will add to more stealth groups if you can see other group members. To some that's ok, and to others that's not.

You are right, the idea would hurt stealther's effectiveness on keeps, which is already weak on Phoenix due to purple guards exposing all assaulting stealthers on the ramparts. That's definitely a problem. I would love to see another countermeasure to the stealther zerg that doesn't involve claws. I feel it's necessary to give up something in order to gain something like seeing grouped stealthers. Just my two cents.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 5:51 AM by Joc

I'd rather not have stealth visible in group to be honest.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 6:12 AM by Isavyr

Joc wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 5:51 AM
I'd rather not have stealth visible in group to be honest.

Why?

Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:05 PM by chryso

Joc wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:43 AM
How about the more healers In an area reduces healing. Maybe the more shield tanks in an area reduces slam duration or block %. Maybe the more casters in an area reducing CC duration or casting damage? It better yet, the more visible classes in an area reduces overall effectiveness of their damage and defense.

And there is the stealther whine.

Wahhhhhh, me and my 7 friends should totally be able to hide behind this blade of grass.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:21 PM by inoeth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:14 AM
I agree with this because it's a huge QOL, but I think stealther zergs have always been a problem and this should be countered.

Even though there are anti-stealther pots, I think they're only a half-measure. I would love to see something like this: the more stealthers in an area, the worse the stealth gets. For example, -3 composite stealth level to a stealther for every other stealther within 600 units of them. In this scenario, if you had 4 nightshades waiting to PA someone at a gate choke-point, instead of the typical 50 composite stealth, they'd have only composite 41 stealth.

Not that an idea needs a realistic narrative, but this idea does have one: The more stealthers shuffling about an area, the more conspicuous it becomes.

or just introduce MoS LOL .... why invent something new when there is a tool that has proven itself for years?
very funny who you somehow now argue about stealth and in all the hunter threads you claim nothing is wrong with stealth ... obviously you are a troll

Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:48 PM by Ayoli

chryso wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:05 PM
Joc wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:43 AM
How about the more healers In an area reduces healing. Maybe the more shield tanks in an area reduces slam duration or block %. Maybe the more casters in an area reducing CC duration or casting damage? It better yet, the more visible classes in an area reduces overall effectiveness of their damage and defense.

And there is the stealther whine.

Wahhhhhh, me and my 7 friends should totally be able to hide behind this blade of grass.

I don`t think there are currently a lot stealther full groups around. I may be wrong.

But sometimes also stealthers meetup and don't want to play always alone. I play also often with 2 friends as a duo or as a trio. Its ok if you want to blame me for that. I don`t care. Yeah and sometimes we have to escape from a group and it is just circuitous to search your stealthed teammates after that.

I think some people here just don't like stealthers and dont want to grant them a better game experience. This has nothing to do with balancing.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:57 PM by Isavyr

Ayoli wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:48 PM
I don`t think there are currently a lot stealther full groups around. I may be wrong.

But sometimes also stealthers meetup and don't want to play always alone. I play also often with 2 friends as a duo or as a trio. Its ok if you want to blame me for that. I don`t care. Yeah and sometimes we have to escape from a group and it is just circuitous to search your stealthed teammates after that.

I think some people here just don't like stealthers and dont want to grant them a better game experience. This has nothing to do with balancing.

Quite the contrary. Stealthers are often victims of stealth-zergs themselves. They may open on an assassin, and suddenly 2-3 others assassins attack, and maybe an archer too. So this problem of stealth zergs affects stealthers as well, perhaps even more so.

The problem with stealth is that there's no way of knowing if stealthers are near. This will sound counter-intuitive--"of course they don't know, why should they?"--but actually some games do allow you to know when an enemy stealther is near, just not where they are. Secondly, there are no reliable abilities for sniffing them stealthers when you know they are camping an area--making counter-play difficult.

Stealth zergs are not a regular occurrence yet, but I feel that if we took this suggestion, and made cooperation within stealth groups easier, it is the correct time to also counterbalance it with some another suggestion that weakens the efficacy of stealth in some specific scenarios in which stealthers are ganking without a ready counter.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 6:31 PM by chryso

On a serious note, to do something like this you would have to send stealther info to the client. If you do send stealther info to the client then you are opening up stealthed characters to be found with radar.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 6:53 PM by Slithic

The OP is talking about allowing a group of stealthers to see each other while in stealth .. while inside the SAME group.

It allows for a stealth group to move and coordinate more effectively. Some play visible groups .. some play stealth groups .. some play solo. Its all a play style choice dependent on the player. Allow them to make it and enjoy the game.

This has nothing to do with allowing other stealthers to see all other stealthers.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 9:18 PM by Joc

chryso wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:05 PM
Joc wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:43 AM
How about the more healers In an area reduces healing. Maybe the more shield tanks in an area reduces slam duration or block %. Maybe the more casters in an area reducing CC duration or casting damage? It better yet, the more visible classes in an area reduces overall effectiveness of their damage and defense.

And there is the stealther whine.

Wahhhhhh, me and my 7 friends should totally be able to hide behind this blade of grass.

I mean, we could go with the age old "git gud" comeback too if you want? Stealthers aren't the ones complaining here. The visibles that don't know how to adapt to the current state of the game are.

I play visible and stealth classes so I understand both sides of it. Yes it sucks to get banked from stealth, but that is literally the class design. Once they are out in the open they are incredibly weak to anything passing by or any competent duo.

Adapt...

Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:32 PM by Ayoli

I think it would be enough if the view range would be a little bit increased for stealthed group mates. It is already implemted for viewing different stealth classes. An enemy sb can see a minstrel with same stealth level much earlier - thats ok to me. But the minstrel can't see his own infiltrator groupmate that stands directly in front of him - thats a little bit annoying.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:05 AM by Sepplord

why should stealthed grouping be made easier though?

Visibles cannot see their groupmembers better than enemies neither, and when you lose your group in the zerg, or a teammate overextend his nameplate is gone in the same distance as other nameplates are

There are tools to easily regroup after a fight, or even spread out to different position, via groundtarget and groundassist

The learning curve for stealth-grouping is pretty flat compared to the learning curve of basically every other RvR-playstyle, no need to dumb it down even more

Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:35 AM by Ayoli

I don't see the sense to lay ground targets when I travel with my groupmate to an other zone and i lost him because of a lag spike. There is no skill needed to find him... its just annoying. I dont need the suggested change, but I would appreciate it for a better game expierience. The discussion is over for me at this point. I told you my point of view and have nothing to add.