Nightshade Instant DD - Phoenix Freeshard

can someone enlighten me on the math of this spell:

Lance of Night
Level 48
Damage 62
Damage Type Cold
Power 31
Range 700
Recast Delay 20s

how can a unspecced spell with 62 delve hit for ~170 before resists?
normal damage after resists is typically 110 to 120.

i looked through some old logs for a comparison, but i can't find even one fight against Cirath. :/

Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:14 AM by keen

It's bugged if it does that DMG.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:54 AM by Koljar

Don't forget the dmg modification by your primary dmg stat (dex for NS iirc). Works just like acuty for caster classes.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 12:39 PM by Bradekes

Lev wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:10 AM
how can a unspecced spell with 62 delve hit for ~170 before resists?
normal damage after resists is typically 110 to 120.

Nightshade spells are specced. They are tied to Critical Strike. Also they have Dexterity as an acuity stat. Same as a 174spell hitting my grey toons for over 500dmg

Wed 13 Feb 2019 1:25 PM by Lev

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 12:39 PM
Nightshade spells are specced. They are tied to Critical Strike. Also they have Dexterity as an acuity stat. Same as a 174spell hitting my grey toons for over 500dmg

just for info what i meant with specced:
unspecced = you get get the spell just by leveling
specced = you get the spell by spending spec points

Wed 13 Feb 2019 1:38 PM by Sepplord

Lev wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 1:25 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 12:39 PM
Nightshade spells are specced. They are tied to Critical Strike. Also they have Dexterity as an acuity stat. Same as a 174spell hitting my grey toons for over 500dmg
just for info what i meant with specced:
unspecced = you get get the spell just by leveling
specced = you get the spell by spending spec points

What you mean is baseline and speccline spells...that doesn't impact dmg calculations though.
For dmg calculations the specc-lvl of the corresponding specline is taken (regardless if it is a specline or baseline spell).

For the NS-DD the corresponding specline (seems to be) is critstrike (from an earlier comment, i have no information regarding this). Thus the spell is baseline, but it's damagevariance is influenced by the criticalstrike spec.

(why the casting stat got changed to dex though doesn't make sense to me...quick would have been more reasonable imo)

Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:17 PM by Zansobar

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 1:38 PM
Lev wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 1:25 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 12:39 PM
Nightshade spells are specced. They are tied to Critical Strike. Also they have Dexterity as an acuity stat. Same as a 174spell hitting my grey toons for over 500dmg
just for info what i meant with specced:
unspecced = you get get the spell just by leveling
specced = you get the spell by spending spec points

What you mean is baseline and speccline spells...that doesn't impact dmg calculations though.
For dmg calculations the specc-lvl of the corresponding specline is taken (regardless if it is a specline or baseline spell).

For the NS-DD the corresponding specline (seems to be) is critstrike (from an earlier comment, i have no information regarding this). Thus the spell is baseline, but it's damagevariance is influenced by the criticalstrike spec.

(why the casting stat got changed to dex though doesn't make sense to me...quick would have been more reasonable imo)

Yes quick would have made more sense since it's a secondary rising stat just like hybrid caster's acuity stats that raise from leveling.

Anyway the reasoning of the high damage is the very high dex most NS will have coupled with the bonus from being "full specced" in the casting spec once items and RR are taken into account.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:32 PM by Lev

as i don't know based on what the devs here do change something, i leave it at this.
on Uthgard i would try to find some 15 year old text which states otherwise. i don't like to do that anyway.

:p

i personally think it's too high. i fought a lot of NS on various servers (all classic though) and this just never was a real damage component.
e.g. if we assume the casted DD uses the same calculations as the instant DD, this would mean it would hit for 200 dmg before resists on a lvl 50 player.
that's very high for a free ability, especially compared to crossbows or thrown weapons.

EDIT: just for a comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1bkcfTCtbA
0:15 -- the instant dd hits for 69(-24) there.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:41 PM by Zansobar

Lev wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:32 PM
as i don't know based on what the devs here do change something, i leave it at this.
on Uthgard i would try to find some 15 year old text which states otherwise. i don't like to do that anyway. :p

i personally think it's too high. i fought a lot of NS on various servers (all classic though) and this just never was a real damage component.
e.g. if we assume the casted DD uses the same calculations as the instant DD, this would mean it would hit for 200 dmg before resists on a lvl 50 player.
that's very high for a free ability, especially compared to crossbows or thrown weapons.

This server is not like Uthgard where they are sticking to 1.65 no matter what. Phoenix starts with 1.65 and then adjusts to balance and improve things. The devs know that dex was never the acuity stat but decided to make it so here.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:39 PM by Isavyr

Lev wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:32 PM
i personally think it's too high. i fought a lot of NS on various servers (all classic though) and this just never was a real damage component.
e.g. if we assume the casted DD uses the same calculations as the instant DD, this would mean it would hit for 200 dmg before resists on a lvl 50 player.
that's very high for a free ability, especially compared to crossbows or thrown weapons.

You want to reduce the one nightshade advantage to be on parity with the other stealthers? What advantage does nightshade have, then?
Infiltrator: Best styles, more spec points
Shadowblade: 2h availability, guaranteed dual swing (guaranteed dual poison--this is big with weapon swapping)
Nightshade: Insta DD, generally better ranged attack

In straight-melee, the nightshade's insta DD does not bring parity in damage to an infiltrator. It's best used as a rupting tool.

Your premise appears to be "it hurts, I don't like it, so let's change it". That's not a good basis for making changes. Present factual evidence about how it's too far, and where it should be, in order to be balanced.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:26 PM by jelzinga_EU

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:39 PM
Lev wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:32 PM
i personally think it's too high. i fought a lot of NS on various servers (all classic though) and this just never was a real damage component.
e.g. if we assume the casted DD uses the same calculations as the instant DD, this would mean it would hit for 200 dmg before resists on a lvl 50 player.
that's very high for a free ability, especially compared to crossbows or thrown weapons.

You want to reduce the one nightshade advantage to be on parity with the other stealthers? What advantage does nightshade have, then?
Infiltrator: Best styles, more spec points
Shadowblade: 2h availability, guaranteed dual swing (guaranteed dual poison--this is big with weapon swapping)
Nightshade: Insta DD, generally better ranged attack

In straight-melee, the nightshade's insta DD does not bring parity in damage to an infiltrator. It's best used as a rupting tool.

Your premise appears to be "it hurts, I don't like it, so let's change it". That's not a good basis for making changes. Present factual evidence about how it's too far, and where it should be, in order to be balanced.

If it is best used as a rupting tool it doesn't need to do damage tho. So that argument goes right out of the window. Currently the DD does 110-120 damage to me on 31% Cold resists which is far more than it used to do.

Calling it the "one nightshade advantage" goes a bit too far, NS is the only class which can spec a weapon-type where other stealthers are, at best, neutral to. All other assassins either do not have a choice (SB) or a choice which makes one of the other resistant. The casted DD does more damage than X-Bow/ThrowingWeapons too. Then there is the side-stun which is also a strong point, especially on the huge side-arcs on Phoenix.

Someone has to be the strongest unless you mirror the realms and classes and I doubt anyone wants that. But while currently playing a SB I do think it is a bit too much: Not only will I never be able to match the damage of a Blades NS in a duel (mainhand damage of NS > mainhand + offhand of the SB), I have less spec-options but even a "free DD" is suddenly doing 115+ damage on me, basically making them have higher HP too. There used to be a trade-off to going Blades as NS (no off-evade stun available) but with the style-revamp they get an insta off-evade stun too.

The problem I have with it is that, when you look at it superficially, everything looks the same. But once you start to look at the custom-Phoenix changes everything stacks in favor of the NS. Armour resist-tables, style-revamps, side-stun arc, insta DD doing 50% more damage, it all adds up to a completely lob-sided balance. All in the favor of the NS-class.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:07 PM by Isavyr

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:26 PM
If it is best used as a rupting tool it doesn't need to do damage tho. So that argument goes right out of the window. Currently the DD does 110-120 damage to me on 31% Cold resists which is far more than it used to do.

No, no. I didn't say that's all it should be used for, I said that is where it's often most effective. It helps bridge the difference in DPS that the nightshade has with other classes, but as far as I know, the nightshade generally does less damage anyway.

jelzinga_EU wrote: The casted DD does more damage than X-Bow/ThrowingWeapons too. Then there is the side-stun which is also a strong point, especially on the huge side-arcs on Phoenix.

OK--I don't see the problem with better ranged DPS--magic is what is supposed to make the nightshade unique. And the 4s side-stun? I don't understand why this is an issue--nightshades also have a 5s evade stun, which is easy to style, and longer. By all means, give everyone 4s side-stuns if that's really a sticking point. Personally I see Dragonfang as the elephant in the room, not the 4s stun.

jelzinga_EU wrote: The problem I have with it is that, when you look at it superficially, everything looks the same. But once you start to look at the custom-Phoenix changes everything stacks in favor of the NS. Armour resist-tables, style-revamps, side-stun arc, insta DD doing 50% more damage, it all adds up to a completely lob-sided balance. All in the favor of the NS-class.

I disagree with your conclusion, but without hard-numbers, it's guess-work. Perhaps the armor resist-tables should be looked at if it's as big issue an as you state. Also, a shadowblade should have an easier time twisting poisons than anyone else, so if you aren't doing that, you should, and that may help you bridge any differences in damage.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:19 PM by inoeth

yes the castable DD is very strong too and very fast ... you can almost do more dmg via castable DD than with PA, making the NS a stealthed caster ... just LOL

Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:39 PM by Isavyr

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:19 PM
yes the castable DD is very strong too and very fast ... you can almost do more dmg via castable DD than with PA, making the NS a stealthed caster ... just LOL

You've described exactly what Mythic intended--a stealthy magic assassin! But you present it as a problem without evidence, which appears to be your MO. No, you cannot do more damage from casting than PA--not even close; your information is wrong. But please contradict with me evidence, instead of baiting/personal attacks.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:53 PM by inoeth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:39 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:19 PM
yes the castable DD is very strong too and very fast ... you can almost do more dmg via castable DD than with PA, making the NS a stealthed caster ... just LOL

You've described exactly what Mythic intended--a stealthy magic assassin! But you present it as a problem without evidence, which appears to be your MO. No, you cannot do more damage from casting than PA--not even close; your information is wrong. But please contradict with me evidence, instead of baiting/personal attacks.

well not with one cast but 2-3 of them hit for more than a pa. ive alrdy experianced that so my information is not "wrong" here. easy just multiply 200 by 2 or 3 and compare that to an average pa of 350-400.
and according to the cast speed spreadsheet you can put them out with a casting speed of around 1.9s on a lurikeen with 10 start dex and buff pots.

im sorry you feel personally attacked that is not my intention but all you say is just so wrong ;D and btw you never bring ANY evidence you just claim random things

Thu 14 Feb 2019 5:35 PM by jelzinga_EU

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:07 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:26 PM
If it is best used as a rupting tool it doesn't need to do damage tho. So that argument goes right out of the window. Currently the DD does 110-120 damage to me on 31% Cold resists which is far more than it used to do.

No, no. I didn't say that's all it should be used for, I said that is where it's often most effective. It helps bridge the difference in DPS that the nightshade has with other classes, but as far as I know, the nightshade generally does less damage anyway.

jelzinga_EU wrote: The casted DD does more damage than X-Bow/ThrowingWeapons too. Then there is the side-stun which is also a strong point, especially on the huge side-arcs on Phoenix.

OK--I don't see the problem with better ranged DPS--magic is what is supposed to make the nightshade unique. And the 4s side-stun? I don't understand why this is an issue--nightshades also have a 5s evade stun, which is easy to style, and longer. By all means, give everyone 4s side-stuns if that's really a sticking point. Personally I see Dragonfang as the elephant in the room, not the 4s stun.

jelzinga_EU wrote: The problem I have with it is that, when you look at it superficially, everything looks the same. But once you start to look at the custom-Phoenix changes everything stacks in favor of the NS. Armour resist-tables, style-revamps, side-stun arc, insta DD doing 50% more damage, it all adds up to a completely lob-sided balance. All in the favor of the NS-class.

I disagree with your conclusion, but without hard-numbers, it's guess-work. Perhaps the armor resist-tables should be looked at if it's as big issue an as you state. Also, a shadowblade should have an easier time twisting poisons than anyone else, so if you aren't doing that, you should, and that may help you bridge any differences in damage.

I don't see a problem in doing better ranged damage, but saying it is the only NS strong point / forté is what I was discussing. The side-stun is important, as with Purge 5 being a thing here it is not always about stun-duration but about making them use purge to begin with (so you can reapplies venom etc). And while Dragonfang is obviously a lot stronger in duration than Diamondback/Horizonblade you forgot the state of SB's: They have no direct off-evade stun like NS and inf (Dragonfang/Beartooth) do. It is a bit of a slap in the face that, compared to live/old-era NS now also get an off-evade insta stun in Blades where SB do not get such love. There used to be down-sides and up-sides to going Pierce (or Blades) - but now there isn't anymore (also see WS/CON debuff rather than STR/CON debuff on Enervating helps Blades close the gap with Pierce too).

There is no guess-work when it comes to armour resist-tables, style-revamps, side-stun arcs and the like, it is all documented or seen in game in a single fight. If you want I can post a SS of Nightshade insta DD if you don't believe me (or others in this thread) on my word, but atleast acknowledging that the changes on Phoenix are all rolled in favor of the (blade) NS would go a long way.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 5:56 PM by Isavyr

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:53 PM
well not with one cast but 2-3 of them hit for more than a pa. ive alrdy experianced that so my information is not "wrong" here. easy just multiply 200 by 2 or 3 and compare that to an average pa of 350-400.
and according to the cast speed spreadsheet you can put them out with a casting speed of around 1.9s on a lurikeen with 10 start dex and buff pots.

Here is screenshot from Nightshade with 345 dex, which is slightly higher than what a player can achieve solo. (all buffs + 75 d/q charge will be close)
[attachment=0]NightshadeDD_345Dex.JPG[/attachment]

So after 3 casts (with no resist--rate is 12.5%) 155 damage = 465 damage in 5.7 seconds. Is this too much? What is too much? Where should it be?

Thu 14 Feb 2019 6:05 PM by Isavyr

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 5:35 PM
I don't see a problem in doing better ranged damage, but saying it is the only NS strong point / forté is what I was discussing. The side-stun is important, as with Purge 5 being a thing here it is not always about stun-duration but about making them use purge to begin with (so you can reapplies venom etc). And while Dragonfang is obviously a lot stronger in duration than Diamondback/Horizonblade you forgot the state of SB's: They have no direct off-evade stun like NS and inf (Dragonfang/Beartooth) do. It is a bit of a slap in the face that, compared to live/old-era NS now also get an off-evade insta stun in Blades where SB do not get such love. There used to be down-sides and up-sides to going Pierce (or Blades) - but now there isn't anymore (also see WS/CON debuff rather than STR/CON debuff on Enervating helps Blades close the gap with Pierce too).

There is no guess-work when it comes to armour resist-tables, style-revamps, side-stun arcs and the like, it is all documented or seen in game in a single fight. If you want I can post a SS of Nightshade insta DD if you don't believe me (or others in this thread) on my word, but atleast acknowledging that the changes on Phoenix are all rolled in favor of the (blade) NS would go a long way.

This may just be my situation, but I cannot get 100% side-stun, and anything short of that (let's say 66%) becomes a huge loss in damage and hit-rate. I think the side-stun is really overblown. It's bad damage for nightshades, inferior stun, and not reliable.

Also, don't worry about blades because from my testing it's only the same damage vs Midgard leather as thrust--better bonus, but lesser base damage. I think a lot of these blade-shades are misguided, but I don't care to point this out generally. At best, it gives a slight advantage vs Midgard while weakening their damage against support (Alb chain + Midgard chain). I think that's the type of trade-offs you want in a game.

The STR/CON debuff changed helped Midgard, by the way. Formerly it penalized Midgard more so, as they relied on Strength for their damage, now it penalizes the other stealthers much more successfully, so I disagree that all changes helped other stealthers.

I agree with you regarding the SB situation--it does seem a bit unfair to have 2nd style evade stun when the other stealthers have a first-style stun. Was this always the case in classic (I never played shadowblade, and don't remember them stunning at all)?

Thu 14 Feb 2019 6:16 PM by Bradekes

Love caster shade, Add MoM & Aug dex you can nuke over 200 w/resists... I do not think it's OP though, as I can't imagine anything more perfect for hibernia as the caster realm.

The delve damage on the nukes is extremely low compared to any other casted spell in the game. Of course it can be circumstanially strong, but I can't see how it would give the NS an edge vs other stealthers, especially in 1vs1 when you wouldn't be in cast range in a stealth fight.

You can also get acouple points in MoF for less resists which is nice.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 7:01 PM by defiasbandit

Because its overtuned.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 7:03 PM by defiasbandit

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 6:16 PM
Love caster shade, Add MoM & Aug dex you can nuke over 200 w/resists... I do not think it's OP though, as I can't imagine anything more perfect for hibernia as the caster realm.

The delve damage on the nukes is extremely low compared to any other casted spell in the game. Of course it can be circumstanially strong, but I can't see how it would give the NS an edge vs other stealthers, especially in 1vs1 when you wouldn't be in cast range in a stealth fight.

You can also get acouple points in MoF for less resists which is nice.

Nice bias. The spell had a shorter cast time and does nearly as much damage as level 50 ice wizard DD. Sounds balanced.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 7:09 PM by Bradekes

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 7:03 PM
Nice bias. The spell had a shorter cast time and does nearly as much damage as level 50 ice wizard DD. Sounds balanced.

Nothing wrong with liking a class...
And you're saying a NS is going to deal even 50% of the damage a wizard does with aug acuity and MoM and 75acuity buff? No way sir.. My example was also with buff pots and dex/qui charge.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 7:48 PM by sabyrtuth

The dd buff on phoenix finally makes shades closer to their calling of magical assassin. Not overpowered at all honestly, people will complain about anything different here that threatens their old ways and chance of always winning.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 7:57 PM by inoeth

An assassin which is supposed to do melee dmg (which it does) also deals more ranged dmg than archers. LOL

Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:15 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 7:57 PM
An assassin which is supposed to do melee dmg (which it does) also deals more ranged dmg than archers. LOL

I bet you say melee bard do more dps than archers too, and they have mezz and heals...

Thu 14 Feb 2019 9:58 PM by Isavyr

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 7:57 PM
An assassin which is supposed to do melee dmg (which it does) also deals more ranged dmg than archers. LOL

This is what I mean about unsupported claims.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 2:12 AM by Bradekes

I wanted to clarify something, I am not sure if they changed it after launch, but NS nukes seem to be tied to Stealth now, not CS verified as I made a NS today. Level 5 I had variances in damage every cast with full CS, I swapped spec to full stealth and the casts are now consistent. Just to correct my earlier post!!

Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:11 AM by keen

The DMG is just wrong, open a bug report. Maybe get data from uthgard if possible to know how much DMG it is supposed to do

Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:14 AM by inoeth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 9:58 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 7:57 PM
An assassin which is supposed to do melee dmg (which it does) also deals more ranged dmg than archers. LOL

This is what I mean about unsupported claims.

You yourself brought the data to this this time dude....

Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:06 AM by Isavyr

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:14 AM
You yourself brought the data to this this time dude....

Nice try, brother. Go and prove that archer DPS is inferior. Until then, please no more comments, you're wasting our time.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:35 AM by Bradekes

keen wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:11 AM
The DMG is just wrong, open a bug report. Maybe get data from uthgard if possible to know how much DMG it is supposed to do

You're the one who thinks the damage is wrong. I know for a fact it's correct. Phoenix is the one who tied the damage to a spec. My guess is they saw a misnomer that NS were the only class to have unspeccable spells, so they corrected it.

Others may be right that they should of made the acuity tied to a different stat, but dexterity is a logical choice, because it was tied to STR before on a class whose race choices have the lowest STR in the game. IMO both of these changes were great, especially because they've made great adjustments to Thanes spells that no one complains about.

Seems if you don't like the change you should make a suggestion post to get it changed back, as it is working how they intended for their server.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:42 AM by keen

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:35 AM
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:11 AM
The DMG is just wrong, open a bug report. Maybe get data from uthgard if possible to know how much DMG it is supposed to do
Seems if you don't like the change you should make a suggestion post to get it changed back, as it is working how they intended for their server.

This DMG is wrong, don't make things up. Just login on uthgard if you have the chance and see the DMG how it should be.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:53 AM by Bradekes

keen wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:42 AM
This DMG is wrong, don't make things up. Just login on uthgard if you have the chance and see the DMG how it should be.

Phoenix is not uthgard... They have made custom changes.. Last time I am going to say it.. I have verified the differences for you. Use some common sense to understand the differences. Uthgard doesn't have the acuity tied to Dex Uthgard doesn't have the spellines attached to stealth, phoenix does - get over it....

Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:58 AM by Sepplord

keen wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:42 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:35 AM
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:11 AM
The DMG is just wrong, open a bug report. Maybe get data from uthgard if possible to know how much DMG it is supposed to do
Seems if you don't like the change you should make a suggestion post to get it changed back, as it is working how they intended for their server.
This DMG is wrong, don't make things up. Just login on uthgard if you have the chance and see the DMG how it should be.

despite disagreeing with the current implementation of dex as the scaling stat myself...what the F***...how dense can someone be

it was literally spelled out to you multiple times, that there are intended changes to NS on this server and it is working accordingly. Going to uthgard will show different damage, not because something is wrong, but because the dmg is intentionally higher here.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:03 PM by keen

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:58 AM
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:42 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:35 AM
Seems if you don't like the change you should make a suggestion post to get it changed back, as it is working how they intended for their server.
This DMG is wrong, don't make things up. Just login on uthgard if you have the chance and see the DMG how it should be.

despite disagreeing with the current implementation of dex as the scaling stat myself...what the F***...how dense can someone be

it was literally spelled out to you multiple times, that there are intended changes to NS on this server and it is working accordingly. Going to uthgard will show different damage, not because something is wrong, but because the dmg is intentionally higher here.

Who made that up, that NS cast dmg should be intentionally higher than 1.65? Havent seen an offical post like that.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:38 PM by Bradekes

keen wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:03 PM
Who made that up, that NS cast dmg should be intentionally higher than 1.65? Havent seen an offical post like that.

"Nightshade cast damage (Nightshade acuity stat is dexterity)is not affected."

From the wiki this is the only info I could find - under stealther changes refering to WS debuff poison changes. As far as stealth affecting dd dmg I coukd find nothing, but it doesn't mean it wasn't intentionally done. We would need an answer from a GM, GL with that

Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:39 PM by keen

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:38 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:03 PM
Who made that up, that NS cast dmg should be intentionally higher than 1.65? Havent seen an offical post like that.

"Nightshade cast damage (Nightshade acuity stat is dexterity)is not affected."

From the wiki this is the only info I could find - under stealther changes refering to WS debuff poison changes. As far as stealth affecting dd dmg I coukd find nothing, but it doesn't mean it wasn't intentionally done. We would need an answer from a GM, GL with that

I just found that post and made a bug report, that casting stat for NS is str and not dex.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:12 PM by

gruenesschaf

Hm looks like it being dex was indeed a way later change

Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:55 PM by Bradekes

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:12 PM
Hm looks like it being dex was indeed a way later change

What about the spells being attached to Stealth? That's also not mentioned in the wiki, and was never that way in live?

I like the way it is but I thought this was an intentional change. I'd like it fixed too if this was accidentally left in.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 2:03 PM by inoeth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:06 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:14 AM
You yourself brought the data to this this time dude....

Nice try, brother. Go and prove that archer DPS is inferior. Until then, please no more comments, you're wasting our time.

ok i did some testing now
first picture: unbuffed crit 4.5s normal 3.7s = 457 dmg 8.2s => 55.7 dmg/s
second picture: yellow selfbuff crit 3.9s normal 3.2s = 517 dmg 7.1s => 72.8 dmg/s
third picture: dex/quick charge crit 3.6s normal 3s = 547 dmg 6.6s => 82.9 dmg/s
fourth picture: dex/quick charge+ dex pot crit 3.6s normal 3s = 577 dmg 6.6s => 87.4 dmg/s

so if you take a look at your picture again you can see that you are doing 465 dmg in 5.7s that 81.6 dmg/s
that is very close to the dmg a hunter is doing, but you do not have to invest a single spec point into it.
now tell me thats how it should be.... this is ridiculous

Fri 15 Feb 2019 4:43 PM by

gruenesschaf

The stealth spec reducing its variance is afaik correct but could potentially also have been introduced on live when the stat changed to dex

Fri 15 Feb 2019 4:44 PM by

gruenesschaf

As for damage comparisons: The NS dd is obviously magic damage, the dummies are set to basically have 26% resist and chain armor which naturally would skew comparisons of magic and physical damage.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:12 PM by inoeth

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 4:44 PM
As for damage comparisons: The NS dd is obviously magic damage, the dummies are set to basically have 26% resist and chain armor which naturally would skew comparisons of magic and physical damage.

that is true but since archers cant see sh*t it is very unlikely that you can shoot on leather which would obviously be higher, if not adding somewhere... so i think this is still viable because that is what archers actually have to face and still the dmg of ns is too high.
i played hunter on live servers for a very long time and ns DDs have always been very crappy and only viable for rupt just like thrown weapons or crossbow ... dont know why the ns has to be some kind of mixture of lighttank and caster here... its pretty much over the top

Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:14 PM by Isavyr

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 2:03 PM
so if you take a look at your picture again you can see that you are doing 465 dmg in 5.7s that 81.6 dmg/s
that is very close to the dmg a hunter is doing, but you do not have to invest a single spec point into it.
now tell me thats how it should be.... this is ridiculous

You delivered--wonderful. We are comparing apples to oranges though.
1) You're attacking a dummy, instead of players. My experience with dummy was that I hit weaker even with magic.
2) I was using best buffs possible to test the maximum of nightshade DD--you're using self-buffs, which creates another disparity. I stated in my post it's roughly similar but actually upon buffing myself with self-buffs saw the obvious disparity.
3) Against cloth targets + leather targets, the difference will be huge, as physical damage gets a bonus and magic does not.
4) 16.5 weapon will unlock even more damage @ RR5--DD is static.
5) Cannot pre-load damage on DD like a bow, nor have 2k+ range obviously.

For comparison, an infiltrator was doing 40 DPS with a crossbow in i50 with self-buffs.

I think it's possible that the instant is hitting too hard--not shown in my test was the fact that I also insta-DD for 150. However, again, it's in an unrealistic situation of having maximum buffs. I think the casted DD is in a very good place--close to the NS melee damage, useful but not killing targets quickly enough to create imbalances.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:18 PM by inoeth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:14 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 2:03 PM
so if you take a look at your picture again you can see that you are doing 465 dmg in 5.7s that 81.6 dmg/s
that is very close to the dmg a hunter is doing, but you do not have to invest a single spec point into it.
now tell me thats how it should be.... this is ridiculous

You delivered--wonderful. We are comparing apples to oranges though.
1) You're attacking a dummy, instead of players. My experience with dummy was that I hit weaker even with magic.
2) I was using best buffs possible to test the maximum of nightshade DD--you're using self-buffs, which creates another disparity. I stated in my post it's roughly similar but actually upon buffing myself with self-buffs saw the obvious disparity.
3) Against cloth targets + leather targets, the difference will be huge, as physical damage gets a bonus and magic does not.
4) 16.5 weapon will unlock even more damage @ RR5--DD is static.
5) Cannot pre-load damage on DD like a bow, nor have 2k+ range obviously.

For comparison, an infiltrator was doing 40 DPS with a crossbow in i50 with self-buffs.

I think it's possible that the instant is hitting too hard--not shown in my test was the fact that I also insta-DD for 150. However, again, it's in an unrealistic situation of having maximum buffs. I think the casted DD is in a very good place--close to the NS melee damage, useful but not killing targets quickly enough to create imbalances.

you could do us a favor and deliver realistic tests with buff pots and on dummys, so it is more compareable.
good thing you mentioned infiltrator crossbow dmg, is there any good reason ns should do like 5x the dmg of infiltrators or sb? i think not

Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:27 PM by Isavyr

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:18 PM
good thing you mentioned infiltrator crossbow dmg, is there any good reason ns should do like 5x the dmg of infiltrators or sb? i think not

Because that's what differentiates the nightshade--the magic. And we're looking at, best case, double--not 5x. Again, a bad comparison of self-buffs vs max buffs.

I will run the archer test once I'm 50 with 30+11 bow, but imo the two classes play totally different. An archer can drop pre-loaded 500+ Critical Shots from 2k range. A nightshade cannot do that--they behave fundamentally different.

We're not seeing nightshades own people left and right from ranged.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:53 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:18 PM
you could do us a favor and deliver realistic tests with buff pots and on dummys, so it is more compareable.
good thing you mentioned infiltrator crossbow dmg, is there any good reason ns should do like 5x the dmg of infiltrators or sb? i think not

SB and Inf have their own advantages. NS can't perf with a 2h or swing both weapons 100% of the time. NS don't get 2.5 spec points. NS get extremely low delve DDs, half dmg of the lowest casted dd on any class, to make them different. Some people try to find any small piece of info and try to turn it into leverage for their losing arguments. How many hunter whine posts do you have seriously?

Fri 15 Feb 2019 6:10 PM by Zansobar

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:18 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:14 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 2:03 PM
so if you take a look at your picture again you can see that you are doing 465 dmg in 5.7s that 81.6 dmg/s
that is very close to the dmg a hunter is doing, but you do not have to invest a single spec point into it.
now tell me thats how it should be.... this is ridiculous

You delivered--wonderful. We are comparing apples to oranges though.
1) You're attacking a dummy, instead of players. My experience with dummy was that I hit weaker even with magic.
2) I was using best buffs possible to test the maximum of nightshade DD--you're using self-buffs, which creates another disparity. I stated in my post it's roughly similar but actually upon buffing myself with self-buffs saw the obvious disparity.
3) Against cloth targets + leather targets, the difference will be huge, as physical damage gets a bonus and magic does not.
4) 16.5 weapon will unlock even more damage @ RR5--DD is static.
5) Cannot pre-load damage on DD like a bow, nor have 2k+ range obviously.

For comparison, an infiltrator was doing 40 DPS with a crossbow in i50 with self-buffs.

I think it's possible that the instant is hitting too hard--not shown in my test was the fact that I also insta-DD for 150. However, again, it's in an unrealistic situation of having maximum buffs. I think the casted DD is in a very good place--close to the NS melee damage, useful but not killing targets quickly enough to create imbalances.

you could do us a favor and deliver realistic tests with buff pots and on dummys, so it is more compareable.
good thing you mentioned infiltrator crossbow dmg, is there any good reason ns should do like 5x the dmg of infiltrators or sb? i think not

Better question, why is an unspecced crossbow doing half the dps of a specced bow user?

Fri 15 Feb 2019 6:46 PM by keen

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 4:43 PM
The stealth spec reducing its variance is afaik correct but could potentially also have been introduced on live when the stat changed to dex

This was changed 1.103. I am not sure if there was something else than str that influenced NS magical dmg. Also not easy to find out.
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.103

Version 1.103 Release Notes
General Changes
May 18, 2010
Class Changes and Fixes
Nightshades

# All Nightshade magical abilities will now base their damage and variance off of the Stealth skill.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:09 PM by Bradekes

keen wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 6:46 PM
This was changed 1.103. I am not sure if there was something else than str that influenced NS magical dmg. Also not easy to find out.
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.103

Version 1.103 Release Notes
General Changes
May 18, 2010
Class Changes and Fixes
Nightshades

# All Nightshade magical abilities will now base their damage and variance off of the Stealth skill.

Nice find! This is way after, but look at those delves they are twice as much.. That's crazy

Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:27 PM by Isavyr

The central question to this topic has yet to be answered:

If insta DD is too high, where should it be?

My believe is that the insta-DD should bring parity to melee damage with the other assassins, or at least the shadowblade (we expect the infiltrator to be the highest, with the most spec points, and no guaranteed double swing/poison).

So, for example, if the following were true...
44 CS infiltrator: 89 DPS
44 CS nightshade: 79 DPS
44 CS shadowblade: 84 DPS

...then the nightshade insta DD should at least bring it up with the shadowblade. There's 5 DPS difference--so over a 20s CD, it should be 100 EFFECTIVE damage (not base damage). This could be further reduced by 24% group resists, but base templated 26% seems a good enough point)

Currently, it's a little higher than that, but again, those numbers are made-up. My guess is it could possibly use a 20% reduction to the insta-DD value. I strongly believe the casted DD is good where it's at.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:55 PM by Bradekes

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:27 PM
The central question to this topic has yet to be answered:

If insta DD is too high, where should it be?

My believe is that the insta-DD should bring parity to melee damage with the other assassins, or at least the shadowblade (we expect the infiltrator to be the highest, with the most spec points, and no guaranteed double swing/poison).

So, for example, if the following were true...
44 CS infiltrator: 89 DPS
44 CS nightshade: 79 DPS
44 CS shadowblade: 84 DPS

...then the nightshade insta DD should at least bring it up with the shadowblade. There's 5 DPS difference--so over a 20s CD, it should be 100 EFFECTIVE damage (not base damage). This could be further reduced by 24% group resists, but base templated 26% seems a good enough point)

Currently, it's a little higher than that, but again, those numbers are made-up. My guess is it could possibly use a 20% reduction to the insta-DD value. I strongly believe the casted DD is good where it's at.

If it were this easy, you would take the DPS the NS lacks and figure that into a insta dd spell. if its 5dps over 20 seconds you would have a 100dmg spell, but i would suggest higher because it's not really a reliable source of damage. so about 110-120. Honestly it probably is balanced... I know those are made up figures, but 20 seconds cooldown leaves a decent amount for burst.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:57 PM by Isavyr

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:55 PM
Honestly it probably is balanced... I know those are made up figures, but 20 seconds cooldown leaves a decent amount for burst.

The more I think about it, I think you may be right. It has resist rate over 10%, it doesn't scale at RR5, and even if it broke even with the physical damage of a shadowblade, the nightshade would be inferior in every way except for their ranged attack, which doesn't make sense to me either. I'm not sure the disparity is great enough to warrant change, but I could be wrong!

Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:08 PM by l00ri

201dmg CastDD and 170dmg Insta DD before resists.

Seems balanced.