SoS Overload - Phoenix Freeshard

From my point of view and I'm sure some other will agree, SoS is having a negative effect on overall balance but it's hitting Alb hard. From searching the forums I can see this has already been discussed a lot but now that the server has been live for awhile I think it merits more discussion.

All realms having SoS puts Albion at a serious disadvantage. The other realms were built from the ground up from the start to have more utility per class because they have less classes over all. This by default means you need less people to get the same utility as an Alb group. For having more utility the other realms were not supposed to be as good at individual tasks as Albion classes. For example, the wizard is supposed to be the highest damaging caster in the game where the pure caster of the other realms get stuns and debuffs the wizard gets pure damage. Due to obvious balance issues that's not entirely the case now.

Some of the hold overs from that type of game balancing is the RR5 abilities. To keep following the wizard trend they got Volcanic Pillar which was an instant huge damage AoE. For good reason this was eventually nerfed because wizards could delete entire groups of people at once.

Now we come to another ability, SoS. SoS was given to Alb because Alb classes are low utility. Alb can't instant AoE stun, instant amnesia, group purge, instant AoE mezz or some other things I'm sure I'm forgetting.

I won't go into the many different mid and hib group makeups that were already hard to beat but now with SoS are almost impossible to deal with.

I propose we either A). Remove SoS from the game entirely or B). Remove it's use from hib and mid and put a 10-15 minute effect timer on anyone that gets the buff thus preventing abuse.

The state of Albion RvR is poor. Normally Alb is the zergy realm because of various factors. On Phoenix there are on paper a lot of people playing Alb but they aren't out RvRing a lot because the Alb zergs are getting farmed. I'm not sure about hib but on mid the realm task BGs are being advertised as "Come get your free RPs". Something is wrong, it's not all about SoS obviously but I do think it's a decently sized factor.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 4:29 PM by Ceen

So many people which know how DAoC was designed and balanced about, it's amazing.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 4:44 PM by Draygon

I second this, all realms are not equal and should not be treated as such. The class balance cant be looked at as mid, alb and hib should be equal, they arent. Each realm has pros and cons...SoS on all realms has been a bad thing from the start.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 4:47 PM by Dominus

I had posted a few weeks before end of beta regarding the very quick decision to launch new RA's right before going live. The implications of delivering the new RAs with base 1.65 abilities albeit customized is obviously having negative effects. A comprehensive look at overall balance was / has been overlooked. Granted, the Devs have done an amazing job thus far, I think your suggestions on SoS deserve a closer look.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:00 PM by Rook

Yes, I would like to reiterate this is the best launch of a emulated server I've ever been apart of. The devs have my heartfelt thanks for the time and effort put into this server. I bring this subject up from a place of caring about the server health as a whole. As the server matures and everyone gets some realm ranks under the belt I really don't think Alb will be able to compete with the current setup.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:56 PM by opossum12

Speedwarps is what we need

Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:59 PM by FFpheonix

Make Albion Great Again!

Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:00 PM by cocio_dk

daoc have never been about mirror. and thge realms should not mirror Ras.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:01 PM by defiasbandit

100%.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:02 PM by kedelin

Rook wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:00 PM
Yes, I would like to reiterate this is the best launch of a emulated server I've ever been apart of. The devs have my heartfelt thanks for the time and effort put into this server. I bring this subject up from a place of caring about the server health as a whole. As the server matures and everyone gets some realm ranks under the belt I really don't think Alb will be able to compete with the current setup.

Are you for real? Alb is by far the strongest realm with these ra's... no need for speedwarps.. I played alot of the i50 beta and alb caster group is by far the strongest.. you cannot have speedwarps without charge...

Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:07 PM by kedelin

cocio_dk wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:00 PM
daoc have never been about mirror. and thge realms should not mirror Ras.

Daoc has had mirrored RA's for 15 of the 18 years... by the mumbers daocs prime was post toa with the mirrored ra's... if it was better before why would it have gotten changed?

Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:32 PM by Ceen

4k players online everyone doing RvR but sure NF RAs are bad.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:40 PM by Rhoklaw

Honestly, the only thing hurting Albion is the lack of RvR leadership. I have no problem expressing the ongoing problem of zero realm pride in Albion. If you're not an alliance or guild leader, you won't have the sway to convince people to defend our realm let alone attack another. If Albion is losing at RvR, it's because you're too busy doing Sidi or Dragon Raids and leveling ALTs. I've been part of Albion zergs recently and I've watched as we dominated / decimated our enemy. It can be done, IF we have the numbers AND the coordination needed to do so.

As for SoS...

All that does is eliminate CC which is all I generally here people complain about anyway. Such as statements like, "Man, if this game had less CC, it'd be so much more fun."

Problem is, as was pointed out by the OP is Albion doesn't have all the other cool fun factor abilities like insta this or insta that. So yes, providing all 3 realms with SoS was probably not the best idea considering. Whether removing SoS altogether or leaving it with Albion is not a decision I'd want to make since I'm Albion. I can tell you though, SoS is probably thee most used ability in the frontiers at the moment.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:00 PM by Pedro

I will 100% second the statement from the OP.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:00 PM by florin

Spreading out unique RA's was Mythics lazy way of addressing balance. This was repeated here..an ADMITTEDLY (it was easier) lazy way of fixing balance right at the end of beta. Problem is it didn't fix anything.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:02 PM by Azeth123

Some changes I would like to see:

1). Take away SoS from everyone except Albion. This ability is almost a complete counter to Albion's main game plan of CCing what you can and gradually extending a group out. With more classes than ever having access to Det and with the other realms getting SoS, every 8 man engage is just SoS on inc and cause issues. Even if alb groups counter SoS, you just get run down at that point. Even worse you do not have to commit to SoS until a sorc commits to standing still to cast.

2). Remove the 2300 range from Amnesia for Hib and make it 1500. Its completely ridiculous that albion is the "long range" realm, but hibs get access to instant, 2300 range amnesia which makes it incredibly difficult, again, to stand your ground and force a cast. This isnt taking into account hibs ability to amnesia you just to run you down.

3). Give quality of life changes to cleric. Druid gets a pet and root, healer gets it all (But only because they have so much to do), but cleric gets a stun and DD that are both basically useless. You will very rarely use the casted stun because of resists and Det making it a free stun immunity for most classes you would want to peel with stun and the DD is also terrible range, terrible damage, and generally not worth the power to cast. There are so many different angles you could do some QoL buffs to cleric that it is not worth me throwing any out because you have to look at the picture as a whole. It would be easy to say give us something crazy like root cure or a faster cast cure near sight, but I would prefer a harder look at cleric compared to the other realms.

-------------------------------------------------------

Now we should also address the leadership problem Albion currently has. I originally started on Albion and rerolled midgard because I just did not like the player base as a whole on Albion. It seemed a good amount of established guilds went Midgard and Hibernia and Alb kind of got left in the dust. It took slightly longer for Alb to get raids up and running, and even then we had some ninja loot issues. Alb then had a major problem with groups wanting double sorc and hardly anyone played it. We had a struggle even finding one sorc compared to the insane amount of friars, necros, and whatever else out there.

Then it became super apparent that Albion had a ton of newer players join it or just players that have not RvRed in general a lot, so this slowed things down even further just trying to teach fundamentals to people. At this point I decided to reroll. Playing cleric myself, the amount of time I spent or my group spent just trying to get 2 clerics, 1 sorc, 1 cab in a group was hell, much less the dream of double sorc, double cleric, cab, x,x,x.

Now, I have noticed many, many more albion rerolls from players that I used to play with now joining mid and hib. There is a serious leadership vacuum going on with Alb that is being fueled by players with lack of experience with the game, lack of the correct classes to properly flesh out an Alb group, and with the XP changes it is easier than ever to reroll.

I understand this is a player base problem and not necessarily a problem with the server ruleset or GM's, but it needs to be said and have a discussion about. Albion certainly has 8 man groups running and such, but the average player experience on Albion is terrible compared to the other two realms.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:28 PM by Ceen

Ok I'm afraid to say since it's not within the Albion whine meta but:

"I play Albion and I do enjoy it"

Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:31 PM by Quik

No.

Hib already doesn't have Group Purge so now you want them to give up something else that helps them?

At least none of you favor Albion LOL

I have always felt CC was WAY OP in this game and ruined it...and this is coming from someone who plays a Bard the most. Yes CC is one of the biggest parts of my game and I would STILL love to see CC gone or drastically nerfed.

SoS is one of the things that eliminates CC so I fully support all 3 realms having it.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:59 PM by inoeth

Playing albion, run melee trains, dont care sos, win

Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:18 AM by Frieza

makes sense to keep sos as alb only imo.

So many counters that mid/ hib have that adding SoS ontop gives them an advantage. If youre a co-ordinated 8man, SoS hurts, but theres counters. The fact is though, avg groups with SoS troll albion slightly above avg groups with SoS.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:34 AM by teiloh

kedelin wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:07 PM
cocio_dk wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:00 PM
daoc have never been about mirror. and thge realms should not mirror Ras.

Daoc has had mirrored RA's for 15 of the 18 years... by the mumbers daocs prime was post toa with the mirrored ra's... if it was better before why would it have gotten changed?

Better to ask why, if NF was better, why people started leaving the game in droves after NF.

It wasn't TOA - TOA actually saw a pop increase.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:11 AM by Sepplord

Rook wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 4:27 PM
From my point of view and I'm sure some other will agree, SoS is having a negative effect on overall balance but it's hitting Alb hard. From searching the forums I can see this has already been discussed a lot but now that the server has been live for awhile I think it merits more discussion.

All realms having SoS puts Albion at a serious disadvantage. The other realms were built from the ground up from the start to have more utility per class because they have less classes over all. This by default means you need less people to get the same utility as an Alb group. For having more utility the other realms were not supposed to be as good at individual tasks as Albion classes. For example, the wizard is supposed to be the highest damaging caster in the game where the pure caster of the other realms get stuns and debuffs the wizard gets pure damage. Due to obvious balance issues that's not entirely the case now.

Some of the hold overs from that type of game balancing is the RR5 abilities. To keep following the wizard trend they got Volcanic Pillar which was an instant huge damage AoE. For good reason this was eventually nerfed because wizards could delete entire groups of people at once.

Now we come to another ability, SoS. SoS was given to Alb because Alb classes are low utility. Alb can't instant AoE stun, instant amnesia, group purge, instant AoE mezz or some other things I'm sure I'm forgetting.

I won't go into the many different mid and hib group makeups that were already hard to beat but now with SoS are almost impossible to deal with.

I propose we either A). Remove SoS from the game entirely or B). Remove it's use from hib and mid and put a 10-15 minute effect timer on anyone that gets the buff thus preventing abuse.

The state of Albion RvR is poor. Normally Alb is the zergy realm because of various factors. On Phoenix there are on paper a lot of people playing Alb but they aren't out RvRing a lot because the Alb zergs are getting farmed. I'm not sure about hib but on mid the realm task BGs are being advertised as "Come get your free RPs". Something is wrong, it's not all about SoS obviously but I do think it's a decently sized factor.

You might have a point about SOS, i seriously don't know, but i dare you to rewrite that post while not taking wizard as example, but for example the sorc or minstrel...Alb classes being low utility is not true for the realm as a whole.

Building PUGs in Albion is harder though, and that doesn't go well with it's attraction to new players. I know it is a meme that albs are noobs (they aren't) but it does seem like a bigger percentage of newbies choose alb over the other realms because of the known-medieval-theme.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:39 AM by chewchew

kedelin wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:07 PM
Daoc has had mirrored RA's for 15 of the 18 years... by the mumbers daocs prime was post toa with the mirrored ra's... if it was better before why would it have gotten changed?

florin wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:00 PM
Spreading out unique RA's was Mythics lazy way of addressing balance. This was repeated here..an ADMITTEDLY (it was easier) lazy way of fixing balance right at the end of beta. Problem is it didn't fix anything.

You guys realize that with RR5 abilities theres much more uniqueness with newRAs than with old RAs since there are more useful RR5 abilities than there are useful unique abilities with oldRA?
I dont really understand why they chose not to implement RR5 abilities here. I dont think the discrepancy between lowRR and highRR players is a valid argument for this, since this is a really big con of newRAs anyways and imho since RR5 is easy to reach here (with tasks and stuff) it actually would be nice to get one ability for free then.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:03 PM by Takii

Rook wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 4:27 PM
From my point of view and I'm sure some other will agree, SoS is having a negative effect on overall balance but it's hitting Alb hard. From searching the forums I can see this has already been discussed a lot but now that the server has been live for awhile I think it merits more discussion.

All realms having SoS puts Albion at a serious disadvantage. The other realms were built from the ground up from the start to have more utility per class because they have less classes over all. This by default means you need less people to get the same utility as an Alb group. For having more utility the other realms were not supposed to be as good at individual tasks as Albion classes. For example, the wizard is supposed to be the highest damaging caster in the game where the pure caster of the other realms get stuns and debuffs the wizard gets pure damage. Due to obvious balance issues that's not entirely the case now.

Some of the hold overs from that type of game balancing is the RR5 abilities. To keep following the wizard trend they got Volcanic Pillar which was an instant huge damage AoE. For good reason this was eventually nerfed because wizards could delete entire groups of people at once.

Now we come to another ability, SoS. SoS was given to Alb because Alb classes are low utility. Alb can't instant AoE stun, instant amnesia, group purge, instant AoE mezz or some other things I'm sure I'm forgetting.

I won't go into the many different mid and hib group makeups that were already hard to beat but now with SoS are almost impossible to deal with.

I propose we either A). Remove SoS from the game entirely or B). Remove it's use from hib and mid and put a 10-15 minute effect timer on anyone that gets the buff thus preventing abuse.

The state of Albion RvR is poor. Normally Alb is the zergy realm because of various factors. On Phoenix there are on paper a lot of people playing Alb but they aren't out RvRing a lot because the Alb zergs are getting farmed. I'm not sure about hib but on mid the realm task BGs are being advertised as "Come get your free RPs". Something is wrong, it's not all about SoS obviously but I do think it's a decently sized factor.

You're saying a lot of words (and assuming/making up a lot of stuff about how this game was designed) without actually explaining your claim of why Hib/Mid having SoS is a problem. Alb has SoS in every group too. A good Alb group is extremely strong on this server because of the lack of Charge. If you get SoS'd on and that's a problem for you, why don't you counter SoS?

Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:09 PM by Rook

Thank you all for the discussion thus far. I would love to see more of a breakdown from people that think everything is ok and nothing should change. Do you think the current status of RvR is good for the server? Do you think Albs are just unorganized or have too many new players? Do you think it's fair to have instant amnesia or instant stun AND SoS?

Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:21 PM by Rook

Takii wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:03 PM
Rook wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 4:27 PM
From my point of view and I'm sure some other will agree, SoS is having a negative effect on overall balance but it's hitting Alb hard. From searching the forums I can see this has already been discussed a lot but now that the server has been live for awhile I think it merits more discussion.

All realms having SoS puts Albion at a serious disadvantage. The other realms were built from the ground up from the start to have more utility per class because they have less classes over all. This by default means you need less people to get the same utility as an Alb group. For having more utility the other realms were not supposed to be as good at individual tasks as Albion classes. For example, the wizard is supposed to be the highest damaging caster in the game where the pure caster of the other realms get stuns and debuffs the wizard gets pure damage. Due to obvious balance issues that's not entirely the case now.

Some of the hold overs from that type of game balancing is the RR5 abilities. To keep following the wizard trend they got Volcanic Pillar which was an instant huge damage AoE. For good reason this was eventually nerfed because wizards could delete entire groups of people at once.

Now we come to another ability, SoS. SoS was given to Alb because Alb classes are low utility. Alb can't instant AoE stun, instant amnesia, group purge, instant AoE mezz or some other things I'm sure I'm forgetting.

I won't go into the many different mid and hib group makeups that were already hard to beat but now with SoS are almost impossible to deal with.

I propose we either A). Remove SoS from the game entirely or B). Remove it's use from hib and mid and put a 10-15 minute effect timer on anyone that gets the buff thus preventing abuse.

The state of Albion RvR is poor. Normally Alb is the zergy realm because of various factors. On Phoenix there are on paper a lot of people playing Alb but they aren't out RvRing a lot because the Alb zergs are getting farmed. I'm not sure about hib but on mid the realm task BGs are being advertised as "Come get your free RPs". Something is wrong, it's not all about SoS obviously but I do think it's a decently sized factor.

You're saying a lot of words (and assuming/making up a lot of stuff about how this game was designed) without actually explaining your claim of why Hib/Mid having SoS is a problem. Alb has SoS in every group too. A good Alb group is extremely strong on this server because of the lack of Charge. If you get SoS'd on and that's a problem for you, why don't you counter SoS?

Yes, humans use words sometimes to communicate. The way the game was designed is not some super secret have you ever actually looked at the classes from all realms? I explained clearly why I think mids and hibs having SoS is a problem, maybe you should read the post again and sound out every word.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:39 PM by Sepplord

Rook wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:21 PM
Yes, humans use words sometimes to communicate. The way the game was designed is not some super secret have you ever actually looked at the classes from all realms? I explained clearly why I think mids and hibs having SoS is a problem, maybe you should read the post again and sound out every word.

The only direct connection between SOS and why Alb is disadvantaged when everyone get's the same is because of the low utility on alb classes, and provided "proof" by taking one low utility class as an example. Looks biased to me, when albion has utility overlaoded classes like sorc and minstrel too.

You also mention that albs cannot grouppurge, which is completely nonsensical because HIB/MID can't grouppurge neither. This seems as if you are basing your complaint on hearsay instead of actual game-knowledge.

See, an actual argument would look like this:

Albion needs to make use of it's long-range engagement tools to win fights. SOS let's enemy groups approach into ranges where they are at an advantage over the albgrps. There are ways to counter it, but to execute these properly albgroups need far more communcation and coordination than hib/mid grps need to engage us with SoS.

See, if even i can do it, while disagreeing with the sentiment....why can't you do it when you want to get something changed?
By riding the high horse and telling people to read slowly word for word again you will not convince the devs to change the game according to your wishes

Tue 12 Feb 2019 3:06 PM by moe_Jiller

Ok so do you also think Hib should get Grouppurge then or just nerf everyone else and buff Alb lol wth? Take away ichor from Alb and hib? Go old ra alltogether while at it?

SoS is not your Problem...

Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:16 PM by Furyan1234

Hib Groups benefit from SoS so much more then the other two realm. Like someone else already statet, Albions strength is its "long Range" classes , imo thats only the MEzz on Bolt range and Theurgs (wich are not Part of the Meta imo) BUT Bolt Range Mezz gets countered sooooo easy by Insta Amnesia on !2300! Range + SoS on every single inc, since almost every Hib grp runs 2 Bard (=2 SoS) ... Now maybe someone could say "Then Run 2 Minstrels, so you also get 2 SoS" - But that jsut doesnt work, bc of the way alb groups have to be built due to Utility spread over too many classes. So theres 2 Possibilities imo to balance things out:

Either Nerf Bard Amnesia to something like 1500 - 1750 Range or put an Immunity timer of about 5 Minutes on SoS - so Hib grps have to choose between SoS on Inc OR SoS for defensive use..

And dont get me wrong i am not crying about Hib beeing too strong but i am hopping onto the consensus that Albs "Strength" gets countered too easy.

What do you think about my two cents guys ?

Tue 12 Feb 2019 11:39 PM by Takii

You're not wrong that Hib and Mid groups generally benefit from SoS more, if they are tank groups. The flip side of that coin is if SoS is down or not used well (it is actually a difficult RA to use properly since it can easily result in a poorly coordinated groups just splitting up), an Alb caster group generally has the advantage on inc due to the amount of long range tools they have.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 11:48 PM by teiloh

Takii wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 11:39 PM
You're not wrong that Hib and Mid groups generally benefit from SoS more, if they are tank groups. The flip side of that coin is if SoS is down or not used well (it is actually a difficult RA to use properly since it can easily result in a poorly coordinated groups just splitting up), an Alb caster group generally has the advantage on inc due to the amount of long range tools they have.

In practice Alb doesn't really have much of a range advantage - Sorc mez range can be closed by Healers/Bards in less than a second at Speed 6, Bards have instant Amnesia, and Mid's Healer and off-healer have Spamnesia. Hib's NS option is also the best group fit, with Runie following, whereas Wizards and Matter Cabs don't really fit into Alb grps cleanly. Alb groups also lose more for the time Clerics are curing NS because they don't have 2-4 other healers covering for them while they're healing. It is true that if you're not careful with Theurgists they will put you on the defensive, but Hib and Mid have all the tools needed to lock down Alb casters, not only on inc but especially during a fight.

It was when ToA rolled around and that range advantage was multiplied by 25%, compounded with much faster casts, pushing Sorcs over a threshold where they became extremely competitive with Hib/Mid CC. This along with Speedwarp + SoS, and Alb started to really become serious contenders. Even on live 1.65 Alb required very strict setups to compete. Here, with homogenized RAs (that frankly favor Mid and HIb), that hurdle is even higher. Essentially, distributing the same X number of good RAs around fewer classes means those already high-util classes will be granted a disproportionate number of RA options. 7% of Alb classes have SoS (or PR, or DI, or Dashing Defense, etc) vs 8.3% of Mid, for example.

Keep in mind Alb is also heavily nerfed on Phoenix due to pet issues - for one, pet DoTs no longer interrupt as often and this was a Necro/emerald simulacrum specialty. Furthermore almost all of the top tier Minstrel pets have been nerfed hard (Frost stallion no longer AEs from range, or even attacks, Ellyl no longer spam bolts and their heal has almost been halved, Windchasers don't heal, Goborchend wounders don't DoT from range and the DoT no longer interrupts each tick, Far dorocha no longer instant mezzes, etc.)

Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:02 AM by rubaduck

Oh come on.

It's either everyone has it, or back to the old system. Choose between two evils. I would LOVE to get group purge to sacrifice SoS.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:03 AM by Druth

My only problem with SoS is that the caster is also affected.

It should be a tool to reposition in a fight, not escape fights.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:19 AM by Ceen

Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:03 AM
My only problem with SoS is that the caster is also affected.

It should be a tool to reposition in a fight, not escape fights.

So if everyone repositions and leaves the bard / skald / minstrel on the death row, why would anyone use ^^

Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:24 AM by Druth

Ceen wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:19 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:03 AM
My only problem with SoS is that the caster is also affected.

It should be a tool to reposition in a fight, not escape fights.
So if everyone repositions and leaves the bard / skald / minstrel on the death row, why would anyone use ^^

Because you want casters to get back, and melee to get forward.

People use sos to escape fights now, and I think that is a bad mechanic, you should have to accept the good and bad incs.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:39 AM by Sepplord

Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:03 AM
My only problem with SoS is that the caster is also affected.

It should be a tool to reposition in a fight, not escape fights.

inb4 QQ thread on the forum:
"Mids and Hibs are too advantaged, they can easily take two bards/skalds and have both of them SOS to escape fights, while albion is stuck with no second minstrel"

Seriously though: that sounds like a nerf to SoS that could be considered. The CC-immunity should also count for the caster though, since imo it is also a proactive anti-CC measure, and bard would suffer the most from not being CC immune

Wed 13 Feb 2019 12:56 PM by Tritri

Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:24 AM
Because you want casters to get back, and melee to get forward.

I'm sorry, what ? xD

Anyway, so is fine right now. And I see a lot of stupid things in this thread :/

Really liking the new RA system based on NF RA's, especially SOS being for all realm and weakened
SoS pre-NF was a huge joke

Wed 13 Feb 2019 1:13 PM by moe_Jiller

Furyan1234 wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:16 PM
Hib Groups benefit from SoS so much more then the other two realm. Like someone else already statet, Albions strength is its "long Range" classes , imo thats only the MEzz on Bolt range and Theurgs (wich are not Part of the Meta imo) BUT Bolt Range Mezz gets countered sooooo easy by Insta Amnesia on !2300! Range + SoS on every single inc, since almost every Hib grp runs 2 Bard (=2 SoS) ... Now maybe someone could say "Then Run 2 Minstrels, so you also get 2 SoS" - But that jsut doesnt work, bc of the way alb groups have to be built due to Utility spread over too many classes. So theres 2 Possibilities imo to balance things out:

Either Nerf Bard Amnesia to something like 1500 - 1750 Range or put an Immunity timer of about 5 Minutes on SoS - so Hib grps have to choose between SoS on Inc OR SoS for defensive use..

And dont get me wrong i am not crying about Hib beeing too strong but i am hopping onto the consensus that Albs "Strength" gets countered too easy.

What do you think about my two cents guys ?

I dont get where you re getting all this from.

Reduce amnesia range? Why? Are you playing sorc and are mad bards 99% win mezz battles which they are designed to do?

2 minstrels are possible. 3 clerics are possible.

On a side Note, 2 bard grps sure exist but its far away from being Standard...

Wed 13 Feb 2019 1:16 PM by dansari

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 11:48 PM
Keep in mind Alb is also heavily nerfed on Phoenix due to pet issues - for one, pet DoTs no longer interrupt as often and this was a Necro/emerald simulacrum specialty. Furthermore almost all of the top tier Minstrel pets have been nerfed hard (Frost stallion no longer AEs from range, or even attacks, Ellyl no longer spam bolts and their heal has almost been halved, Windchasers don't heal, Goborchend wounders don't DoT from range and the DoT no longer interrupts each tick, Far dorocha no longer instant mezzes, etc.)

Lol @ complaining about pet groups when they're unbearable to play against

Wed 13 Feb 2019 2:46 PM by Jaegaer

SoS is just too powewrful and, on top of that, it is also very cheesy.

Albs vs Mid vs Hib group synergy is another discussion entirely.

I would love it if they removed SoS from the game and rewardded good positioning and good inc management.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 2:55 PM by FFpheonix

Jaegaer wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 2:46 PM
SoS is just too powewrful and, on top of that, it is also very cheesy.

Albs vs Mid vs Hib group synergy is another discussion entirely.

I would love it if they removed SoS from the game and rewardded good positioning and good inc management.

The game would be better off without SoS. This should be changed as you suggest.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:20 PM by teiloh

dansari wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 1:16 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 11:48 PM
Keep in mind Alb is also heavily nerfed on Phoenix due to pet issues - for one, pet DoTs no longer interrupt as often and this was a Necro/emerald simulacrum specialty. Furthermore almost all of the top tier Minstrel pets have been nerfed hard (Frost stallion no longer AEs from range, or even attacks, Ellyl no longer spam bolts and their heal has almost been halved, Windchasers don't heal, Goborchend wounders don't DoT from range and the DoT no longer interrupts each tick, Far dorocha no longer instant mezzes, etc.)

Lol @ complaining about pet groups when they're unbearable to play against

Pets are easy enough to handle as long as you have more than half a brain, for Mids and Hibs at least

Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:45 PM by rubaduck

Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:03 AM
My only problem with SoS is that the caster is also affected.

It should be a tool to reposition in a fight, not escape fights.

SoS is speed 4, you can easily outrun it with speed 6.

Or do you mean any escape RA's should be removed just because they have an escape every 10 minutes?

Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:53 PM by chryso

It seems funny how people complain that CC is overpowered and at the same time complain about SOS being overpowered too.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:02 PM by teiloh

chryso wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:53 PM
It seems funny how people complain that CC is overpowered and at the same time complain about SOS being overpowered too.

Mid and Hib should never have gotten SoS. Class-exclusive RAs with some tweaks would be better.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:52 PM by rubaduck

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:02 PM
chryso wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:53 PM
It seems funny how people complain that CC is overpowered and at the same time complain about SOS being overpowered too.

Mid and Hib should never have gotten SoS. Class-exclusive RAs with some tweaks would be better.

This was discussed to death during beta, and the Devs landed on new-school RA to even it out. It is the easiest way to balance everything, because the problem with "tweaking" is that you'll most likely end up with months of development with big variations in strength. So the devs did the easiest way out, every realm gets their hands on everything (excluding RR5's) which makes balancing on a whole level out.

SoS isn't and never was OP (fight me!), and giving everyone the option to pick it is a common ground.

Class exclusive RA's are a very good way to go and I am all for it, but if so, no tweaking, no modifier, no nothing. I will take group purge over SoS, I will take AM over SoS any time.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 6:16 PM by teiloh

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:52 PM
This was discussed to death during beta, and the Devs landed on new-school RA to even it out. It is the easiest way to balance everything, because the problem with "tweaking" is that you'll most likely end up with months of development with big variations in strength. So the devs did the easiest way out, every realm gets their hands on everything (excluding RR5's) which makes balancing on a whole level out.

SoS isn't and never was OP (fight me!), and giving everyone the option to pick it is a common ground.

Class exclusive RA's are a very good way to go and I am all for it, but if so, no tweaking, no modifier, no nothing. I will take group purge over SoS, I will take AM over SoS any time.

NF SoS without Speedwarp has never existed anywhere other than Phoenix. On paper it may sound like balance, but Alb has more classes so the RAs are much more watered down in their spread. Likewise, the OF RAs were designed with 1.65 class design in mind, granted a few glaring weaknesses in several class RAs.

NF RAs were designed around a post-ToA game, in which the playing field was significantly leveled across realms by Artifacts and MLs.

This current blend of New RA + Pre-ToA is totally unique and itself opens the door to either lopsided balance, or as you said, months of development with big variations in strength.

But just very quickly:

Lets assume OF RAs. Cut all class unique to 10 point costs for those that are 14.

Tweaks:

Anger of Gods DPS -> 30-40
Perfect Rez -> Timer to 15m from 30, or allow use on living targets to clear all debuffs and set H/E/P to 100%
Warriors, grant 30s Dashing Defense as their RA instead of some junk style
Static Tempest -> Follow buffs as they are on live

There we go, Midgard has a strong set of core RAs as well. It would require the editing of 1-2 values here and there.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 6:44 PM by rubaduck

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 6:16 PM
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:52 PM
This was discussed to death during beta, and the Devs landed on new-school RA to even it out. It is the easiest way to balance everything, because the problem with "tweaking" is that you'll most likely end up with months of development with big variations in strength. So the devs did the easiest way out, every realm gets their hands on everything (excluding RR5's) which makes balancing on a whole level out.

SoS isn't and never was OP (fight me!), and giving everyone the option to pick it is a common ground.

Class exclusive RA's are a very good way to go and I am all for it, but if so, no tweaking, no modifier, no nothing. I will take group purge over SoS, I will take AM over SoS any time.

NF SoS without Speedwarp has never existed anywhere other than Phoenix. On paper it may sound like balance, but Alb has more classes so the RAs are much more watered down in their spread. Likewise, the OF RAs were designed with 1.65 class design in mind, granted a few glaring weaknesses in several class RAs.

NF RAs were designed around a post-ToA game, in which the playing field was significantly leveled across realms by Artifacts and MLs.

This current blend of New RA + Pre-ToA is totally unique and itself opens the door to either lopsided balance, or as you said, months of development with big variations in strength.

But just very quickly:

Lets assume OF RAs. Cut all class unique to 10 point costs for those that are 14.

Tweaks:

Anger of Gods DPS -> 30-40
Perfect Rez -> Timer to 15m from 30, or allow use on living targets to clear all debuffs and set H/E/P to 100%
Warriors, grant 30s Dashing Defense as their RA instead of some junk style
Static Tempest -> Follow buffs as they are on live

There we go, Midgard has a strong set of core RAs as well. It would require the editing of 1-2 values here and there.

Ok I see your argument there, that the classes are watered down, but it is SO MUCH EASIER to balance classes then to balance RA's. Mythic NEVER managed to balance their RA's, what-so-ever and designed them to work with their Master Levels to give a balance to their junk TOA mechanics. That is without even taking RR5 ability in to consideration which created a big black void of abilities that were either very strong to borderline OP, or extremely underpowered. And you are not even taking the RR5's in to consideration in your own assessment, just the speccable RA's.

The core mechanics in RvR is designed around 8 man groups in every patch throughout the game, which means that albion do get more classes left out in "cookie cutting", but do not even remotely confuse that with HIB-MID balance vs ALB balance because that is just straight up misinforming players to believe Albion is an underpowered realm. An alb caster group, alb hybrid group and alb tank group can be just as effective as mid, and hib counterpart. The difference lays in and always will lay in scaling with realm levels. That is both true with OF RA and NF RA. There might be discrepancies in how effective an ability is at the time it is used comparing realms but that is again where the ground level is, and where balancing out classes will be much more efficient over balancing RA's.

Again, if devs are bringing back OF abilities (which they won't by the way), I will gladly take GP and AM and watch the tears of how unbalanced people believe it will be. SoS is still in the game because it isn't and never was OP. It is a big part of group play in both small man and 8v8 and is a solid mechanic for every realm to use to get out.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:58 PM by FFpheonix

Fighting and strategies would be far more interesting if SoS wasn't apart of every fight (where SoS isn't on cooldown.) I've seen groups engage and one group land a good CC or one group makes a mistake (overextends, bad positioning, etc) only for SoS to be popped and all advantages removed and mistakes forgiven. Not fun or interesting imho.

Tweak Alb balance once SoS is removed, stop crutching on SoS.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:06 PM by teiloh

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 6:44 PM
Ok I see your argument there, that the classes are watered down, but it is SO MUCH EASIER to balance classes then to balance RA's. Mythic NEVER managed to balance their RA's, what-so-ever and designed them to work with their Master Levels to give a balance to their junk TOA mechanics. That is without even taking RR5 ability in to consideration which created a big black void of abilities that were either very strong to borderline OP, or extremely underpowered. And you are not even taking the RR5's in to consideration in your own assessment, just the speccable RA's.

The core mechanics in RvR is designed around 8 man groups in every patch throughout the game, which means that albion do get more classes left out in "cookie cutting", but do not even remotely confuse that with HIB-MID balance vs ALB balance because that is just straight up misinforming players to believe Albion is an underpowered realm. An alb caster group, alb hybrid group and alb tank group can be just as effective as mid, and hib counterpart. The difference lays in and always will lay in scaling with realm levels. That is both true with OF RA and NF RA. There might be discrepancies in how effective an ability is at the time it is used comparing realms but that is again where the ground level is, and where balancing out classes will be much more efficient over balancing RA's.

Again, if devs are bringing back OF abilities (which they won't by the way), I will gladly take GP and AM and watch the tears of how unbalanced people believe it will be. SoS is still in the game because it isn't and never was OP. It is a big part of group play in both small man and 8v8 and is a solid mechanic for every realm to use to get out.

It isn't easier to balance classes than RAs. Mythic failed to balance classes and then took the easy way out by surface-level homogenization, which made things worse.

Alb absolutely is an underpowered and watered down realm, the only exception being for a handful of highly specific, high skill cap setups that can go toe to toe with Mid/Hib groups of the same skill level (none of which are really attempted) - but still have higher downtime and lower margins for error.

SoS back the way it was in NF was a good ability, counterable, fun. Something like it didn't have to go to Mid and Hib. If anything, Alb would have benefited from Group Purge the most, so this one-way homogenization where Mid and Hib get everything Alb had and needed to keep them balanced and where Alb only gets watered down, poorly synergized, nerfed or deleted abilities in return is not much of a trade.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:08 PM by defiasbandit

The issue is that Alb is just even harder to play now. Midgard and Hib are even easier than ever.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:26 PM by Ceen

If or if not SoS is in the game has no effect on alb pugs at all. As long as they form caster pugs they will wipe ^^ If you run a caster grp you run it with a set grp or reroll melee. All those ae invite caster grps will wipe and thats why we have task. You dont need a good grp for some RP

Thu 14 Feb 2019 9:22 AM by Sepplord

FFpheonix wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:58 PM
Fighting and strategies would be far more interesting if SoS wasn't apart of every fight (where SoS isn't on cooldown.) I've seen groups engage and one group land a good CC or one group makes a mistake (overextends, bad positioning, etc) only for SoS to be popped and all advantages removed and mistakes forgiven. Not fun or interesting imho.

Tweak Alb balance once SoS is removed, stop crutching on SoS.

That comments looks like you think that SOS breaks CC...When one grp lands a good CC on another, SOS is not saving them.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:01 PM by FFpheonix

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 9:22 AM
FFpheonix wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:58 PM
Fighting and strategies would be far more interesting if SoS wasn't apart of every fight (where SoS isn't on cooldown.) I've seen groups engage and one group land a good CC or one group makes a mistake (overextends, bad positioning, etc) only for SoS to be popped and all advantages removed and mistakes forgiven. Not fun or interesting imho.

Tweak Alb balance once SoS is removed, stop crutching on SoS.

That comments looks like you think that SOS breaks CC...When one grp lands a good CC on another, SOS is not saving them.

More specifically, it seems it's more like "oh shit we're losing or out of position SOS!"

Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:29 PM by Sepplord

FFpheonix wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 2:01 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 9:22 AM
FFpheonix wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:58 PM
Fighting and strategies would be far more interesting if SoS wasn't apart of every fight (where SoS isn't on cooldown.) I've seen groups engage and one group land a good CC or one group makes a mistake (overextends, bad positioning, etc) only for SoS to be popped and all advantages removed and mistakes forgiven. Not fun or interesting imho.

Tweak Alb balance once SoS is removed, stop crutching on SoS.

That comments looks like you think that SOS breaks CC...When one grp lands a good CC on another, SOS is not saving them.

More specifically, it seems it's more like "oh shit we're losing or out of position SOS!"

technically that is less specific

sorry, could not resist

Thu 14 Feb 2019 5:06 PM by Drominchen

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 6:16 PM
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:52 PM
This was discussed to death during beta, and the Devs landed on new-school RA to even it out. It is the easiest way to balance everything, because the problem with "tweaking" is that you'll most likely end up with months of development with big variations in strength. So the devs did the easiest way out, every realm gets their hands on everything (excluding RR5's) which makes balancing on a whole level out.

SoS isn't and never was OP (fight me!), and giving everyone the option to pick it is a common ground.

Class exclusive RA's are a very good way to go and I am all for it, but if so, no tweaking, no modifier, no nothing. I will take group purge over SoS, I will take AM over SoS any time.

NF SoS without Speedwarp has never existed anywhere other than Phoenix. On paper it may sound like balance, but Alb has more classes so the RAs are much more watered down in their spread. Likewise, the OF RAs were designed with 1.65 class design in mind, granted a few glaring weaknesses in several class RAs.

NF RAs were designed around a post-ToA game, in which the playing field was significantly leveled across realms by Artifacts and MLs.

This current blend of New RA + Pre-ToA is totally unique and itself opens the door to either lopsided balance, or as you said, months of development with big variations in strength.

That is wrong. All Origin Server setups (Canterbury Cluster EU / Gareth Cluster US) had NF RAs and no ToA (ML/artifacts) and it worked out mostly balanced. One could argue for Catacombs and ToA boni on items tho but that is another matter.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:09 PM by teiloh

Drominchen wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 5:06 PM
That is wrong. All Origin Server setups (Canterbury Cluster EU / Gareth Cluster US) had NF RAs and no ToA (ML/artifacts) and it worked out mostly balanced. One could argue for Catacombs and ToA boni on items tho but that is another matter.

They had +range, +cast, etc right? Either way, those servers were a failure afaik.