Call to buff Archers!

Started 8 Feb 2019
by worldknown
in RvR
Hi everyone,
Wanted to just share my frustrating experience as an archer. Going as either a hunter or ranger pale in comparison to the strength of other classes, and even though I might get the jump on someone I wind up dying. In my own very personal and humble opinion I think that Archers need to be buffed.

I'm seeing Archers spec full melee because bows are too weak, but even when speaked full melee they cannot compete with other melee classes. It really puts Archers in a bad spot. Factor this in with the belief that they are not viable or desired in group templates (except on a one off basis) all points to a really gimped Archer dynamic in the game.

Can we get some love please? It's frustrating playing a class you love so much that brings so little to the table.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 4:36 PM by Emeryc
Yes, please. Although I believe Ranger and Hunter melee is decent (not great, mind you!) Archery is horribly weak and really quite useless in RvR when compared to options every other class has.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 4:47 PM by keen
Archer is an adder char. If you want another gameplay you need another class. They are the most efficient in making RPS though.
Critical shot customization is already a big buff to archers on phoenix.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 4:51 PM by Jaegaer
Yes, this is a known problem.

Archery was changed in later updates for a reason: it's implementation was quite limited and overall an archer pays too much for that one trick: being able to do a range attack from stealth.

Later the role of Archers was basically to sniff out Assassins and get them killed. They, however, would be killed in return if an Assassin was able to jump them.

But currently an Assassin will not only be able to jump an Archer almost every time but also kill him in melee almost every time while not needing to fear said Archer to be able to counter him from afar in any way.

So, as much as I loved my Hunter, I decided aginst an Archer class on Phoenix when I saw just how weak Archery would be.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:32 PM by worldknown
See this is the common theme between people I talk to on discord, in game, and on the forums. There is a strong desire for Archer play but more people are deciding against it due to their underwhelming ability to compete on any level in RVR.

edit: An afterthought, with the inception of the self buff pots (which are nice), this also was an indirect nerf to Archers like the ranger as well. You now have wasted points in pathfinding as an example.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:06 PM by Emeryc
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 4:47 PM
Archer is an adder char. If you want another gameplay you need another class. They are the most efficient in making RPS though.
Critical shot customization is already a big buff to archers on phoenix.
I just can't agree with anything in this response. The Archer archetype was originally designed to suppress casters and soften hard targets... iirc, this was explicitly stated in the original DAoC manual. As of right now, they are completely incapable of doing those things. Archery is hugely nerfed on Phoenix and Archers (not melee Rangers and Spear Hunters) are by far the least feared classes in RvR.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:11 PM by worldknown
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:06 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 4:47 PM
Archer is an adder char. If you want another gameplay you need another class. They are the most efficient in making RPS though.
Critical shot customization is already a big buff to archers on phoenix.
I just can't agree with anything in this response. The Archer archetype was originally designed to suppress casters and soften hard targets... iirc, this was explicitly stated in the original DAoC manual. As of right now, they are completely incapable of doing those things. Archery is hugely nerfed on Phoenix and Archers (not melee Rangers and Spear Hunters) are by far the least feared classes in RvR.

This 100%. I am pleading to devs to address this
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:11 PM by Kuschell
worldknown wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 4:27 PM
Hi everyone,
Wanted to just share my frustrating experience as an archer. Going as either a hunter or ranger pale in comparison to the strength of other classes, and even though I might get the jump on someone I wind up dying. In my own very personal and humble opinion I think that Archers need to be buffed.

I'm seeing Archers spec full melee because bows are too weak, but even when speaked full melee they cannot compete with other melee classes. It really puts Archers in a bad spot. Factor this in with the belief that they are not viable or desired in group templates (except on a one off basis) all points to a really gimped Archer dynamic in the game.

Can we get some love please? It's frustrating playing a class you love so much that brings so little to the table.

Agree thumbs up, hope this will happen soon. Before my frustration takes over and i reroll a sb
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:35 PM by Isavyr
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:06 PM
The Archer archetype was originally designed to suppress casters and soften hard targets... iirc, this was explicitly stated in the original DAoC manual. As of right now, they are completely incapable of doing those things.

They do both quite well, in my experience.
2100 range, rapid-fire is extremely good at disrupting casters.
A 500-600 damage critical shot definitely softens up a target.

Can you write out a scenario of how the archer would function differently in order to adequately serve these two objectives?
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:52 PM by worldknown
Archers have to deal with bubble, shield block, 15 sec crit immunity after first crit from an arrow, enemy pets not losing target etc. Factor that in with nerfs to stealth whereby Assassins will always see Archers its not even a question. The tables are so stacked against Archers right now that they are on the fringe of being unplayable.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:56 PM by Niget
Evade 5 and better detection range!

Evade 5 will help make up for the lose of dodger.
(Not to mention pd, and ap.)

Better detection range so archers don't have to start a fight after getting perfed every time!!!!
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:11 PM by kskovbo
Complete agree. Something needs to be done to archer gameplay.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:21 PM by Isavyr
worldknown wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:52 PM
[1] Archers have to deal with bubble, [2] shield block, 15 sec crit immunity after first crit from an arrow, [3] enemy pets not losing target etc. Factor that in with nerfs to stealth whereby Assassins will always see Archers its not even a question. The tables are so stacked against Archers right now that they are on the fringe of being unplayable.

1) You would 2-shot casters if it penetrated their BT. Please.
2) You aren't intended to attack tanks--choose different target.
3) This is generally not true, and isn't unique to archers anyway.

Archers are very useful, I recommend changing your tactics if the above three are an issue for you.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:23 PM by Patron
Assasins should be superiour vs archers when pa hit.
Thats why more detectionrange and better evade should NOT get implemented.
Archers have better racechoice, better armor, nice RAs... Plz explain why archers should ger buffed or are too weak.
Why a class which is expert in rangefights should get buffed in mellee?
Assasins better stealthabilitys and meelleewise and archers rangefights and higher survivability.
No buffs needed i think so far.
And archers performing good enough in general so far i can see

Kill on
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:26 PM by Dimir
It seems reasonable to me that ARCHERS get a bonus to ARCHERY but it's pretty tiring listening to all these ARCHERS crying because they aren't as good in MELEE.

Regarding the complaints about detection range (and recent threads about bringing Truesight back). By all means please switch back to old RAs where Assassin's could get See Hidden and see you at 1500+ range except when your 30m Camo was on. 250 seems just so hard to deal with in comparison. :eyeroll:
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:27 PM by keen
Hunter and ranger place 1 and 4 on the leaderboards, you guys must do sth wrong.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:37 PM by Tavi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f-U-rIX-CU
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:57 PM by darthenron
What role should an Archer fit into DAoC?
I feel like most games follow the basic rock-paper-scissor rules when it comes to certain classes.

Example:
Rock > Scissor > Paper > Rock
Range Class > Melee Class > Stealth Class > Range Class

However, DAoC is not fully set up this way because of the in-between classes that don’t fit into these types of mold. Overall I think we have over 5 different class types that deal damage.
Melee Tanks, Melee DPS, Stealth Melee, Magic Range, Stealth Range

In Theory, this should follow this logic (Using rock-paper-scissor-spock-lizard rules)
Where your good against 2 types and weak against 2 types (Even for the same type)

In my head, a “Stealth Range” class should be more powerful than “Melee DPS” or “Stealth Melee” and be weak against “Melee Tanks” or “Magic Range”
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:29 PM by DinoTriz
Tavi wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f-U-rIX-CU

Was he hitting people for 1200 with regular shot??
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:33 PM by Emeryc
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:35 PM
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:06 PM
The Archer archetype was originally designed to suppress casters and soften hard targets... iirc, this was explicitly stated in the original DAoC manual. As of right now, they are completely incapable of doing those things.

They do both quite well, in my experience.
2100 range, rapid-fire is extremely good at disrupting casters.
A 500-600 damage critical shot definitely softens up a target.

Can you write out a scenario of how the archer would function differently in order to adequately serve these two objectives?
As you and I have discussed in the past, I am less concerned with the damage PER ARROW and more concerned with what I guess I would call effective DPS.

Yes, RF can be an effective interrupt tool right up until the Archer is interrupted and has no mechanism to escape that interrupt cycle. A caster can fill this role FAR, FAR better than an Archer can. Consider that a caster can:

...cast as fast as RF
...reach the speed cap more easily than an Archer can
...cast that quickly while sacrificing NO DPS (This single point cannot be overstated.)
...cast while being unconcerned with bubbles, shields, evades, misses and fumbles (yes, misses and resists are similar, but I'd guess resists are less frequent than misses at 50. I've no data to support this, just an assumption so forgive me if that is incorrect.)
...supplement those high DPS spells with an assortment of instas, debuffs, roots, snares, mezzes, stuns, AoE and other toys, in most cases
...escape the interrupt cycle via Quickcast
...all this while adding viability to a group through the pure efficacy of magic damage and utility (a bow only does ONE THING!)

Honestly, why would anyone group an Archer over a caster to serve in this capacity?

2100 range is nice, but it is largely moot in a group setting because you will rarely have the opportunity to fire at max range.

Critshots are-

- one of the slowest attacks in the game, to my knowledge, making it difficult to land considering the speed of the game at this point.
- extremely situational and difficult to land in a meaningful way. It's great to land a nice crit shot on a target in a pitched battle, but that target will most likely be healed to full within the time it takes to land another normal shot at half the damage. Targets are killed by maintaining DPS (hence, the assist train.) An archer has a very tough time doing this for reasons stated above. Ultimately, that critshot has no impact on the encounter.
- nearly impossible to land on a caster.
- completely negated by bubbles, shields, misses, evades, interrupts, nearsight AND mitigated by AF, absorb and physical resists.

All that said, however, I will reiterate that I am less concerned about the damage of each arrow. I am more concerned with the method of delivery.

Archers have no mechanism to provide heals, buffs, protection, crowd control or speed. Thus, their purpose is limited to DPS. So they must be able to deliver DPS more consistently and effectively... that's all I'm saying.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:42 PM by Emeryc
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:29 PM
Tavi wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f-U-rIX-CU

Was he hitting people for 1200 with regular shot??

Years ago, I could do that, too on my Ranger.

It's not the same game on Phoenix.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:52 PM by Emeryc
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:27 PM
Hunter and ranger place 1 and 4 on the leaderboards, you guys must do sth wrong.

Ask those Hunters and Rangers on the leaderboards how high they spec in bow.

dimir wrote: It seems reasonable to me that ARCHERS get a bonus to ARCHERY but it's pretty tiring listening to all these ARCHERS crying because they aren't as good in MELEE.

Guys, please don't misunderstand the issue! It has been stated numerous times, Hunters and Rangers WHO SPEC HIGHLY IN MELEE LINES are fine!

The issue is not the CLASSES, it's the SPEC LINE. I don't want a buff to Rangers (or Hunters or Scouts.) I want a buff to ARCHERY.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 9:35 PM by Isavyr
Emeryc wrote: Guys, please don't misunderstand the issue! It has been stated numerous times, Hunters and Rangers WHO SPEC HIGHLY IN MELEE LINES are fine!

Emeryc, many archers want the archer's melee buffed, or tools in order to have parity with assassin, which makes no sense to many of us. It's a fair representation of those posters, but maybe not you.

Emeryc wrote: Archers have no mechanism to provide heals, buffs, protection, crowd control or speed. Thus, their purpose is limited to DPS. So they must be able to deliver DPS more consistently and effectively... that's all I'm saying.

I disagree that DPS is their primary function. As stated in the manual, disrupt and soften targets. Stealth and high DPS is a bad combination, and with range--absurd design (see posted video for example). Their stealth and range seems very specifically designed for flanking. So if they have a problem with flanking, then maybe that should be addressed. For example, tools to help them get into position faster. Or if they have a problem with disruption, maybe that should be improved.

Since you mentioned utility, let's go through the list quickly:
Mezz-shot: too OP, and large deviation from classic gameplay.
Root-shot: too OP. Could be used to reset for another opener.
Nearsight-shot: Changes their design a lot, but certainly allows disruption. It allows total domination vs another ranged target as well, which unfortunately supports ganking (big effect, little counterplay). If the shot required short-range (50%) then it's probably more reasonable risk vs reward.
Snare-shot: Maybe. Would need reduced damage, otherwise you'd end up doing more DPS to target with snare + damage because it took them longer to reach the archer. If 40% DPS for 40% snare, it would be reasonable.
Debuff-shot: Part of disrupt, probably reasonable--debuff enemy physical damage, or debuff physical resists, supporting melee teamwork as shot-caller (literally).

I don't think archers were well-designed from the beginning. The video shows basically a "good" archer--it's just a ganker. It adds nothing to RvR. There are no signs of imminent danger, and nearly no counters available to the enemies in that video. I think this is the thing we need to avoid. Unfortunately, without adding custom abilities, I don't see good way of making archer a good RVR utility, nor a way to make it a more capable flanker/disruptor.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 9:52 PM by Tavi
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:42 PM
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:29 PM
Tavi wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f-U-rIX-CU

Was he hitting people for 1200 with regular shot??

Years ago, I could do that, too on my Ranger.

It's not the same game on Phoenix.

well its ToA and he has buffs, so yeah not quite accurate ^^
Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:11 PM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 9:35 PM
Emeryc wrote: Guys, please don't misunderstand the issue! It has been stated numerous times, Hunters and Rangers WHO SPEC HIGHLY IN MELEE LINES are fine!

Emeryc, many archers want the archer's melee buffed, or tools in order to have parity with assassin, which makes no sense to many of us. It's a fair representation of those posters, but maybe not you.

Emeryc wrote: Archers have no mechanism to provide heals, buffs, protection, crowd control or speed. Thus, their purpose is limited to DPS. So they must be able to deliver DPS more consistently and effectively... that's all I'm saying.

I disagree that DPS is their primary function. As stated in the manual, disrupt and soften targets. Stealth and high DPS is a bad combination, and with range--absurd design (see posted video for example). Their stealth and range seems very specifically designed for flanking. So if they have a problem with flanking, then maybe that should be addressed. For example, tools to help them get into position faster. Or if they have a problem with disruption, maybe that should be improved.

Since you mentioned utility, let's go through the list quickly:
Mezz-shot: too OP, and large deviation from classic gameplay.
Root-shot: too OP. Could be used to reset for another opener.
Nearsight-shot: Changes their design a lot, but certainly allows disruption. It allows total domination vs another ranged target as well, which unfortunately supports ganking (big effect, little counterplay). If the shot required short-range (50%) then it's probably more reasonable risk vs reward.
Snare-shot: Maybe. Would need reduced damage, otherwise you'd end up doing more DPS to target with snare + damage because it took them longer to reach the archer. If 40% DPS for 40% snare, it would be reasonable.
Debuff-shot: Part of disrupt, probably reasonable--debuff enemy physical damage, or debuff physical resists, supporting melee teamwork as shot-caller (literally).

I don't think archers were well-designed from the beginning. The video shows basically a "good" archer--it's just a ganker. It adds nothing to RvR. There are no signs of imminent danger, and nearly no counters available to the enemies in that video. I think this is the thing we need to avoid. Unfortunately, without adding custom abilities, I don't see good way of making archer a good RVR utility, nor a way to make it a more capable flanker/disruptor.

dude can you please shut up? all you say every time is "archers should not kill assassins" and "killing assassins as an archer does not make sense" but you never bring any eveidence why this should not be the case. tbh what you say does make any sense because you deny certain classes to not be able to play the game. this is so dumb .... why were archers even brought to this game if they "should not be able to kill" what are they supposed to do? and what are the natural enemys of assasins? atm they dont have any natural enemy, they are on top of the food chain right now.

ot: plz give archers soime love. bring self buffs up to match with spec buffs. increase detection range. give back camuflage. introduce some melee absorb RA.
atm archers are even more bad than at classic times because all the archer RAs (of: TS, AP/ nf: PD, MOS) were taken away from them on phoenix
Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:13 PM by Salviati
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:52 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:27 PM
Hunter and ranger place 1 and 4 on the leaderboards, you guys must do sth wrong.

Ask those Hunters and Rangers on the leaderboards how high they spec in bow.

dimir wrote: It seems reasonable to me that ARCHERS get a bonus to ARCHERY but it's pretty tiring listening to all these ARCHERS crying because they aren't as good in MELEE.

Guys, please don't misunderstand the issue! It has been stated numerous times, Hunters and Rangers WHO SPEC HIGHLY IN MELEE LINES are fine!

The issue is not the CLASSES, it's the SPEC LINE. I don't want a buff to Rangers (or Hunters or Scouts.) I want a buff to ARCHERY.

Ask those hunters how many of their realm points came from time played and slobbing out task rewards. Then ask yourself what kind of metric RPs are for determining efficacy or viability. This is no argument at all.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:18 PM by Zansobar
I would love to have bow damage buffed, but I do not think the devs believe it is a problem. Honestly at this stage, even though the physical damage version of archery is what I want in the game, if the devs won't buff bow damage due to it following the same damage formula as unstyled two handed melee weapons, then I would say just give us the updated magic style archery system that is currently on live. At least then there is a reason to spec in bow and given that magic damage on Phoenix is not nerfed I would expect the bow dps to increase considerably under that type of system.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:14 AM by Niget
Most are missing the point here.
There where tools (in the form of Ras) for archers.

They are lost. This damages the class as a whole.

Yes archers should some times beat assassins.
This match up shouldn't be so cut and dry.

I'm sorry assassin players don't think so. You shouldn't be able to farm another stealther class like nothing.

Evade 5 and better stealth detection are nessisary!!!
End of story.
Shut the book.
(Drops the mic)
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:49 AM by Ruek
Not sure where you guys are getting your data but real talk i am being three and four shotted by archers in chain on minstrel from range that is beyond nearsight. If i manage to break the gap somehow the melee is close in terms of who will win. I am fully capped on all my stats and resists templated too.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:57 AM by Emeryc
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 9:35 PM
Emeryc wrote: Guys, please don't misunderstand the issue! It has been stated numerous times, Hunters and Rangers WHO SPEC HIGHLY IN MELEE LINES are fine!

Emeryc, many archers want the archer's melee buffed, or tools in order to have parity with assassin, which makes no sense to many of us. It's a fair representation of those posters, but maybe not you.

Emeryc wrote: Archers have no mechanism to provide heals, buffs, protection, crowd control or speed. Thus, their purpose is limited to DPS. So they must be able to deliver DPS more consistently and effectively... that's all I'm saying.

I disagree that DPS is their primary function. As stated in the manual, disrupt and soften targets. Stealth and high DPS is a bad combination, and with range--absurd design (see posted video for example). Their stealth and range seems very specifically designed for flanking. So if they have a problem with flanking, then maybe that should be addressed. For example, tools to help them get into position faster. Or if they have a problem with disruption, maybe that should be improved.

Since you mentioned utility, let's go through the list quickly:
Mezz-shot: too OP, and large deviation from classic gameplay.
Root-shot: too OP. Could be used to reset for another opener.
Nearsight-shot: Changes their design a lot, but certainly allows disruption. It allows total domination vs another ranged target as well, which unfortunately supports ganking (big effect, little counterplay). If the shot required short-range (50%) then it's probably more reasonable risk vs reward.
Snare-shot: Maybe. Would need reduced damage, otherwise you'd end up doing more DPS to target with snare + damage because it took them longer to reach the archer. If 40% DPS for 40% snare, it would be reasonable.
Debuff-shot: Part of disrupt, probably reasonable--debuff enemy physical damage, or debuff physical resists, supporting melee teamwork as shot-caller (literally).

I don't think archers were well-designed from the beginning. The video shows basically a "good" archer--it's just a ganker. It adds nothing to RvR. There are no signs of imminent danger, and nearly no counters available to the enemies in that video. I think this is the thing we need to avoid. Unfortunately, without adding custom abilities, I don't see good way of making archer a good RVR utility, nor a way to make it a more capable flanker/disruptor.

I would never advocate for any of those abilities... I'm not sure where those even came from. No one wants Archers to become OPd… we just want some viability.

(PLEASE don't compare Archers on Phoenix to the Scout in that video... that was from a completely different game. There is simply NO comparison.)

I don't subscribe to the belief that they were poorly designed from the beginning so let's just let them suck now. I would prefer to fix them. And, truly, I don't think it would take a ton to fix them! Small changes to existing mechanics could benefit Archers without making them OPd… the devs don't need to create an entirely new ability or mechanic. Some ideas that have been posed:
-an increase in ranged attack speed when speccing over 35 in bow... perhaps +4% at 35, 40, 45 and 50, for a total of +12% at 50 spec.
-a greater increase in ranged weapon skill when speccing over 35 in bow, thereby decreasing evades, blocks, etc.
-Penetrating Arrow III at 50 spec.
-an ability to break the interrupt cycle, akin to Quickcast, at a high bow spec level, perhaps 40 or 45

I'm not saying that DPS should be an Archer's only purpose. I'm saying, lacking any other ability, it is their only purpose NOW... and if that's by design, let's provide them the ability to deliver it.

Lastly, I will say that your idea of "...tools to help them get into position faster..." is very intriguing and one I had not considered… increased stealth speed with a higher bow spec?! Maybe +10% stealth movement at 40, 45 and 50 Bow spec? Hmmmmm….
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:07 AM by Niget
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:57 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 9:35 PM
Emeryc wrote: Guys, please don't misunderstand the issue! It has been stated numerous times, Hunters and Rangers WHO SPEC HIGHLY IN MELEE LINES are fine!

Emeryc, many archers want the archer's melee buffed, or tools in order to have parity with assassin, which makes no sense to many of us. It's a fair representation of those posters, but maybe not you.

Emeryc wrote: Archers have no mechanism to provide heals, buffs, protection, crowd control or speed. Thus, their purpose is limited to DPS. So they must be able to deliver DPS more consistently and effectively... that's all I'm saying.

I disagree that DPS is their primary function. As stated in the manual, disrupt and soften targets. Stealth and high DPS is a bad combination, and with range--absurd design (see posted video for example). Their stealth and range seems very specifically designed for flanking. So if they have a problem with flanking, then maybe that should be addressed. For example, tools to help them get into position faster. Or if they have a problem with disruption, maybe that should be improved.

Since you mentioned utility, let's go through the list quickly:
Mezz-shot: too OP, and large deviation from classic gameplay.
Root-shot: too OP. Could be used to reset for another opener.
Nearsight-shot: Changes their design a lot, but certainly allows disruption. It allows total domination vs another ranged target as well, which unfortunately supports ganking (big effect, little counterplay). If the shot required short-range (50%) then it's probably more reasonable risk vs reward.
Snare-shot: Maybe. Would need reduced damage, otherwise you'd end up doing more DPS to target with snare + damage because it took them longer to reach the archer. If 40% DPS for 40% snare, it would be reasonable.
Debuff-shot: Part of disrupt, probably reasonable--debuff enemy physical damage, or debuff physical resists, supporting melee teamwork as shot-caller (literally).

I don't think archers were well-designed from the beginning. The video shows basically a "good" archer--it's just a ganker. It adds nothing to RvR. There are no signs of imminent danger, and nearly no counters available to the enemies in that video. I think this is the thing we need to avoid. Unfortunately, without adding custom abilities, I don't see good way of making archer a good RVR utility, nor a way to make it a more capable flanker/disruptor.

I would never advocate for any of those abilities... I'm not sure where those even came from. No one wants Archers to become OPd… we just want some viability.

(PLEASE don't compare Archers on Phoenix to the Scout in that video... that was from a completely different game. There is simply NO comparison.)

I don't subscribe to the belief that they were poorly designed from the beginning so let's just let them suck now. I would prefer to fix them. And, truly, I don't think it would take a ton to fix them! Small changes to existing mechanics could benefit Archers without making them OPd… the devs don't need to create an entirely new ability or mechanic. Some ideas that have been posed:
-an increase in ranged attack speed when speccing over 35 in bow... perhaps +4% at 35, 40, 45 and 50, for a total of +12% at 50 spec.
-a greater increase in ranged weapon skill when speccing over 35 in bow, thereby decreasing evades, blocks, etc.
-Penetrating Arrow III at 50 spec.
-an ability to break the interrupt cycle, akin to Quickcast, at a high bow spec level, perhaps 40 or 45

I'm not saying that DPS should be an Archer's only purpose. I'm saying, lacking any other ability, it is their only purpose NOW... and if that's by design, let's provide them the ability to deliver it.

Lastly, I will say that your idea of "...tools to help them get into position faster..." is very intriguing and one I had not considered… increased stealth speed with a higher bow spec?! Maybe +10% stealth movement at 40, 45 and 50 Bow spec? Hmmmmm….
Well, that seems out there.
But I like where you are going with this!
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:13 AM by keen
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:52 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:27 PM
Hunter and ranger place 1 and 4 on the leaderboards, you guys must do sth wrong.

Ask those Hunters and Rangers on the leaderboards how high they spec in bow.
Just go 48path, 45bow, stealth and rest blades and make the rps fly in in tasks zones.
You ll climb the ladder in no time
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:20 AM by Niget
keen wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:13 AM
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:52 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:27 PM
Hunter and ranger place 1 and 4 on the leaderboards, you guys must do sth wrong.

Ask those Hunters and Rangers on the leaderboards how high they spec in bow.
Just go 48path, 45bow, stealth and rest blades and make the rps fly in in tasks zones.
You ll climb the ladder in no time

I wouldn't even bother. That is a sad way to do it.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:21 AM by Isavyr
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:57 AM
I would never advocate for any of those abilities... I'm not sure where those even came from. No one wants Archers to become OPd… we just want some viability.

...

Ah, my mistake then. I understood you to want more utility, so I went through the typical list of utility.

I can agree with all of the above propositions, though things like Penetrating Arrow III would need some adjusting, in my opinion (only break PBT--no form of casted BT). All of the proposed changes make the archer more effective within its niche without contributing to power creep.

That being said, I do think the archer would be a lot more interesting if they were tailored more to their originally stated purpose. The downside of increased bow damage/speed is that it just makes them more effective gankers.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:28 AM by gruenesschaf
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:29 PM
Tavi wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f-U-rIX-CU

Was he hitting people for 1200 with regular shot??

It's crit shot.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:35 AM by Niget
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:28 AM
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:29 PM
Tavi wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f-U-rIX-CU

Was he hitting people for 1200 with regular shot??

It's crit shot.

It's also post toa. So of no use to this subject
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:43 AM by keen
It's most importantly Vs targets that don't know how to prevent being crit shoted. On phoenix there is no way to prevent being crit shoted
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:56 AM by Emeryc
Ruek wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:49 AM
Not sure where you guys are getting your data but real talk i am being three and four shotted by archers in chain on minstrel from range that is beyond nearsight. If i manage to break the gap somehow the melee is close in terms of who will win. I am fully capped on all my stats and resists templated too.

Wow... a minstrel complaining about an archer? That is amusing, I gotta say.

In order to get hit 4 times by an archer (without RF, which is simply incapable of killing a templated chain wearer in 4 shots) you have to stand and do nothing for at least 8 or 9 seconds. Are you saying you can neither get out of range nor interrupt the Archer in 8 seconds?
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:41 AM by Niget
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:56 AM
Ruek wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:49 AM
Not sure where you guys are getting your data but real talk i am being three and four shotted by archers in chain on minstrel from range that is beyond nearsight. If i manage to break the gap somehow the melee is close in terms of who will win. I am fully capped on all my stats and resists templated too.

Wow... a minstrel complaining about an archer? That is amusing, I gotta say.

In order to get hit 4 times by an archer (without RF, which is simply incapable of killing a templated chain wearer in 4 shots) you have to stand and do nothing for at least 8 or 9 seconds. Are you saying you can neither get out of range nor interrupt the Archer in 8 seconds?
Ya... Don't you have a 1500 unit insta stun....
Sounds like a skill problem.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:09 AM by randomeclipse
1. I did not roll a Ranger to just melee, why on earth would I do that? I rolled one because I enjoy archery. However there is no doubt this has been needed on this server.

2. Those saying Archery is absolutely fine as it is have not ran an archer in the frontiers.

3. It’d be interesting to hear what the devs view is on how they envisaged archery being on Phoenix.

I still love my Ranger though, even if she’s RP fodder 😎.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:30 AM by Niget
Side note- path finding could use a buff or some work. It's almost pointless to go over 20 spec just for a bigger da.
With buff pots/charges that are stronger and a spec af use. All you use in that line is a speed burst and da.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:46 AM by inoeth
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:30 AM
Side note- path finding could use a buff or some work. It's almost pointless to go over 20 spec just for a bigger da.
With buff pots/charges that are stronger and a spec af use. All you use in that line is a speed burst and da.

this also applies to beastcraft spec!

btw i just wanted to further suggest to implement the attack speed reduction for hunters in the lancer-lunging thrust combo .... every other stealther does have it anytime or in an anytime combo which is very hard to counter and makes it even harder for hunters to compete in melee
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:51 AM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:21 PM
worldknown wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:52 PM
[1] Archers have to deal with bubble, [2] shield block, 15 sec crit immunity after first crit from an arrow, [3] enemy pets not losing target etc. Factor that in with nerfs to stealth whereby Assassins will always see Archers its not even a question. The tables are so stacked against Archers right now that they are on the fringe of being unplayable.

1) You would 2-shot casters if it penetrated their BT. Please.
2) You aren't intended to attack tanks--choose different target.
3) This is generally not true, and isn't unique to archers anyway.

Archers are very useful, I recommend changing your tactics if the above three are an issue for you.

Archers and Assassins were intended to kill Casters in the original rock-paper-scissors design of DAOC. With Paper (aka Casters) having self-casted BT, Nearsight, Quickcast, PD, and other anti-Archer (Scissors), the game is out of balance.

So being that yes, point 2) is correct (Rock crushes Scissors) what do you propose for point 1)? Stealthers were originally designed as Caster killers just as Casters were originally designed as Tank killers. Tanks were originally designed as Stealther Killers.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:28 AM by Tillbeast
You can spot assassin players so easily before you even read their signature. Its plain as the nose on your face archers as a whole are severly underpowered on phoenix. Missing key RA's like true sight and physical defence and there most important RA Mastery of Stealth completely redesigned heavily in favour of assassins.

All I want is better bow damage and an equal stealth detection system. If I get caught by a stealther with a PA becuas they have taken correct RA's fair enough I should lose. I also believe in a random fight where an archer and assassin meet unstealthed the assassin should win more often than not. However if I choose RA's that allow me to use my spears rear stun whilst stealthed on an assassin I should have good chance to win. This is not possible at the moment as assassin is always going to see you first. The argument that assassins should have better detection just because they need to get into melee is moot as you can quite as easily say archers should have better stealth detection to spot assassins so bow becomes viable as they are a ranged class. Both of those previous statements if put into effect are so game un-balancing and should not be implemented but unfortunately one of them is. At the moment archers are free realm points to assassins unless the assassin is low rr and the archer is RR6 or more as to survive an assassins attack as you need IP5 just to get enough hp back to compete when you get pa chained to the face, purge 2 (minimum) to get rid of the stun and huge weaponskill debuff plus other effects on you and lots of Aug Str/Dex to compete with all the aug dex and improved crit the assassin has as he has not had to spend any points on MoS else all your going to do is be evaded which enables assassin evade chain skills. Then after all that if you do manage to get the upper hand assassin just vanishes...waits for your stun and debuff immunity timer to go and repeats process but this time you not got IP nor purge to save you or your jumped by another assassin.

Not asking for better melee, I personally think our melee is fine. Its not as good as an assassins nor a visible mdps and nor should it be. It is however very good in the situation it is designed to be used in which is similar to assassins and that its from surprise. This situation though is not possible on phoenix due to stealth detection rules. Infiltrators, nightshades and shadowblades should not be immune to being hunted themselves. Stealth detection needs to be made equal so the assassin who is hunting an archer wins if he reacts first, or positions himself better and gets himself into melee but the archer who reacts quicker than the assassin can avoid the PA in the face and escape. However the range of detection should not be that large that an archer can land a crit shot on an assassin in my opinion, that would be unfair. I would go as far to make assassins immune to crit shots whilst stealthed as they need to be stealthed to land their main chain of attacks.

Long story short...our melee is fine...buff bow damage....make stealth detection equal.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:29 AM by Druth
Is rough, but untill there is some reliable way for non-stealthers to find stealthers in the area they know they are, I do not think stealthers are valid for any buffs and I think assassins should be toned down.

Caravan claws and other stealthers is not enough of a trade-off from being invisibel.


We came from pets chasing/uncovering stealthers and no vanish. And while the pet chase thing was lame, stealth is now an immunity from non-stealthers, unless you decide to attack, and then one group even has a 15min vanish to solve bad engagements.

Stealthers are roughly around 10-15% of the RvR pop right now, and I think thats an okay number (think around 5-10% is the best). It is unhealthy for the server if the numbers get near 20% people will start to leave.
It's very damaging for the morale of casuals to die suddenly to something they did not see, and something they afterwards cant find/revenge.

Right now, archers are bad, but assassins are good. Only way I see archers should get a buff, if it's a buff that directly counters assassins because part of what makes archers bad is how much assassins punish them.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:36 AM by Ganil
I'm not sure they're 10-15% of the rvr pop.
Yesterday night, there were only around 5 lv 50 scout on alb. I'll give you that there were around 40 total, and as much as 70 ranger total, but a lot of them were still leveling.

However, I still agee with you. Stealth is too strong and need some counterplay like stealthlore or detection pnjs like the caravan you proposed.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:38 AM by Tillbeast
The reason why there are so many stealthers is because assassins are so overpowered at the moment and minstrel has always been popular. All I see in midgard is shadowblade after shadowblade being levelled and very few hunters. cannot say for other realms. On other servers assassins had issues that hindered them (ways to uncover them) whilst on here they have been completely removed making the environment heavily in their favour. Everyone had a thidranki assassin alt as thid was great due to enemy not having the tools at level 24 to spot them.....enemy don't have the tools to spot them at level 50 now.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:41 AM by Druth
I get my numbers from /underpop

Note, that stealthers are not raking in the big bucks in rps, and that the class in my sig are likely far stronger and makes more rps.

But dying once to a stealther makes people dislike the game far more than dying 5 times to a visibel, a visibel they feel they have a chance at finding and getting revenge upon. Nothing feels more frustrating than dying to something you have little to no chance of finding.
The other day I went out on my 44 rm to try'n kill an eld 4 times, and died every time.
Had it been a NS I would not have bothered.

My opposition to stealthers is not founded in data showing they dominate, but in the feelings they generate especially in casuals.
Is making rules on feelings bad? Maybe, but I'd rather loose 50 stealthers than 200 casuals.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:52 AM by Ganil
For now I think the best solution (even tho I dislike it) is to bring back mos and camo so archers will survive better and they can pop each other in front of visible.
It has the side effect of making them weaker as a whole because they need to invest in that ra too.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 11:00 AM by randomeclipse
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:41 AM
I get my numbers from /underpop

Note, that stealthers are not raking in the big bucks in rps, and that the class in my sig are likely far stronger and makes more rps.

But dying once to a stealther makes people dislike the game far more than dying 5 times to a visibel, a visibel they feel they have a chance at finding and getting revenge upon. Nothing feels more frustrating than dying to something you have little to no chance of finding.
The other day I went out on my 44 rm to try'n kill an eld 4 times, and died every time.
Had it been a NS I would not have bothered.

My opposition to stealthers is not founded in data showing they dominate, but in the feelings they generate especially in casuals.
Is making rules on feelings bad? Maybe, but I'd rather loose 50 stealthers than 200 casuals.

Perhaps those that apparently ragequit after dying to a stealthier should:

1. Roll one themselves, or;
2. Don’t run solo where stealthers are likely to look for solo runners/roamers.

By your reckoning, being killed by a visible over and over is ok, but if a stealthier gets you after sitting and waiting, potentially for some time, it’s not ok - just because you couldn’t see their initial attack.

Hmm 😒🤔.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:08 PM by Druth
randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 11:00 AM
Perhaps those that apparently ragequit after dying to a stealthier should:

1. Roll one themselves, or;
2. Don’t run solo where stealthers are likely to look for solo runners/roamers.

Troll comment+comment about visbles having to adapt instead of fixing the problem.

randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 11:00 AM
By your reckoning, being killed by a visible over and over is ok, but if a stealthier gets you after sitting and waiting, potentially for some time, it’s not ok - just because you couldn’t see their initial attack.

Hmm 😒🤔.

Yes, being killed by a visible is far far less annoying. Going back to that eld, I could also have asked in /as for someone to help me, and killed him.
If it had been a NS I could have done nothing, because he'd be near impossible to find, and if we found him... Vanish.

And mentally, it's much less annoying/frustrating when you see a fg coming at you and you can just sit down and await the inevitable, than BAM!!! dead...


I am not saying it's fair, I am not saying stealthers are OP (apart from minstrel, but different debate...).
I'm talking about what it does to the population. Not sure if I'm communicating it clearly.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:34 PM by randomeclipse
It’s not a problem, it’s been that way since 2001.

P.S. I agree Minstrels are very strong.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:49 PM by Druth
randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:34 PM
It’s not a problem, it’s been that way since 2001.

P.S. I agree Minstrels are very strong.

Well, then I don't understand the point of this thread.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:55 PM by Glimmer
From my pov while playing my scout in rvr worst thing that can happen is miss/evade my arrow vs damn assassin. It is worst scenario for scout cus you can't outmelee then or escape when they poison your ass out. 2nd situation i want to mention is very poor defense as archer vs assassin, you almost can't hit them due of evade rate and your defense is preaty weak.

So my suggestion:
1)Give archers kind of defense vs assassins,
2)Decrease miss/evade rate from arrows,
3)Implement New Frontier Mastery of Stealth ability !
4)Buff up bow dmg by speccing more in bow.

Regards
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:13 PM by randomeclipse
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:49 PM
randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:34 PM
It’s not a problem, it’s been that way since 2001.

P.S. I agree Minstrels are very strong.

Well, then I don't understand the point of this thread.

Because Archers/Archery on Phoenix are not like they were in 2001. They have been nerfed here.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:26 PM by keen
Achery dmg does not need a buff, if you can not make RPs on an archer, that is your fault.
Others do it very easily. Ask them for advice.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:34 PM by Druth
randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:13 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:49 PM
randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:34 PM
It’s not a problem, it’s been that way since 2001.

P.S. I agree Minstrels are very strong.

Well, then I don't understand the point of this thread.

Because Archers/Archery on Phoenix are not like they were in 2001. They have been nerfed here.

The server emulates 1.65, it does not copy it.

Pets chased stealthers even after they stealthed back in 2001, they would chase stealthers to the end of the world, no matter how long you were stealthed.
Do you want this crap back as well? If not, lets please stop debating what was, and instead focus on what should be.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 2:50 PM by randomeclipse
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:34 PM
randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:13 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:49 PM
Well, then I don't understand the point of this thread.

Because Archers/Archery on Phoenix are not like they were in 2001. They have been nerfed here.

The server emulates 1.65, it does not copy it.

Pets chased stealthers even after they stealthed back in 2001, they would chase stealthers to the end of the world, no matter how long you were stealthed.
Do you want this crap back as well? If not, lets please stop debating what was, and instead focus on what should be.

Bugs are a different thing entirely....

That is the view, that the NEW QoL changes have severely impacted archery for the worse and should BE reviewed.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 3:06 PM by Druth
randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 2:50 PM
Bugs are a different thing entirely....

That is the view, that the NEW QoL changes have severely impacted archery for the worse and should BE reviewed.

The thread topic was about archers being weak.

You said they were nerfed compared to 2001, which I said is irrelevant because this is not trying to copy 2001.

Now we are talking bugs, why have this thread and not a bug report?
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:01 PM by randomeclipse
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 3:06 PM
randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 2:50 PM
Bugs are a different thing entirely....

That is the view, that the NEW QoL changes have severely impacted archery for the worse and should BE reviewed.

The thread topic was about archers being weak.

You said they were nerfed compared to 2001, which I said is irrelevant because this is not trying to copy 2001.

Now we are talking bugs, why have this thread and not a bug report?

So are you saying Archers have not been nerfed on Phoenix, and have no issues?

That’s a rhetorical question, you don’t know because you’ve not played one at 50 on this server. Your issue seems to be the fact that they stealth and can attack you from said stealth - perhaps removing stealth as a QoL change would be better?
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:14 PM by Isavyr
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:51 AM
Archers and Assassins were intended to kill Casters in the original rock-paper-scissors design of DAOC. With Paper (aka Casters) having self-casted BT, Nearsight, Quickcast, PD, and other anti-Archer (Scissors), the game is out of balance.

So being that yes, point 2) is correct (Rock crushes Scissors) what do you propose for point 1)? Stealthers were originally designed as Caster killers just as Casters were originally designed as Tank killers. Tanks were originally designed as Stealther Killers.

Good question. The archer is intended to be effective in killing stray caster/supports, as well as pepper/disrupt visible groups. If you allow them to 2-shot casters under all circumstances, they become nothing more than gankers, with no real counterplay (see the video--that's what he's doing, 2 shotting, except to everybody).

The archer already has the tools to defeat a lone caster nearly everytime, and never die, because if caster charges the archer, the archer can simply flee and restealth--which, is much easier than it was in classic (and for the better, in my opinion).
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:25 PM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:14 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:51 AM
Archers and Assassins were intended to kill Casters in the original rock-paper-scissors design of DAOC. With Paper (aka Casters) having self-casted BT, Nearsight, Quickcast, PD, and other anti-Archer (Scissors), the game is out of balance.

So being that yes, point 2) is correct (Rock crushes Scissors) what do you propose for point 1)? Stealthers were originally designed as Caster killers just as Casters were originally designed as Tank killers. Tanks were originally designed as Stealther Killers.

Good question. The archer is intended to be effective in killing stray caster/supports, as well as pepper/disrupt visible groups. If you allow them to 2-shot casters under all circumstances, they become nothing more than gankers, with no real counterplay (see the video--that's what he's doing, 2 shotting, except to everybody).

The archer already has the tools to defeat a lone caster nearly everytime, and never die, because if caster charges the archer, the archer can simply flee and restealth--which, is much easier than it was in classic (and for the better, in my opinion).

you mean like assassins kill every other class? again paper daoc from you side.
try to run from enchanter with insta snare dd pet
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:31 PM by Druth
randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:01 PM
So are you saying Archers have not been nerfed on Phoenix, and have no issues?

That’s a rhetorical question, you don’t know because you’ve not played one at 50 on this server. Your issue seems to be the fact that they stealth and can attack you from said stealth - perhaps removing stealth as a QoL change would be better?

I'm not saying that, I am actually, if you bothered reading, that archers suffer because of assassins.
Buff archer damage and we just have more stealthers.
Buff archer stealth detection, and we have fewer assassins, more archers.

And more stealthers means fewer casual players.

And yes, my problem is that they can attack from stealth and that I can not find them when they restealth.
Your problem seems to be that having stealth/invisbility comes with a high cost.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:39 PM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:25 PM
you mean like assassins kill every other class? again paper daoc from you side.
try to run from enchanter with insta snare dd pet

Yes, you're right, there's no perfect situation where an archer dominates every time. And thank god for that. It's really ridiculous saying that archers are in a bad place because SOMETIMES they get nearsighted (they have purge anyway) and SOMETIMES there is an enchanter pet that snares them! Anyway, the pet doesn't attack instantly, is disruptable, and has shorter max range than all archers by at least 25%. Use your strengths.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:51 PM by randomeclipse
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:31 PM
randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:01 PM
So are you saying Archers have not been nerfed on Phoenix, and have no issues?

That’s a rhetorical question, you don’t know because you’ve not played one at 50 on this server. Your issue seems to be the fact that they stealth and can attack you from said stealth - perhaps removing stealth as a QoL change would be better?

I'm not saying that, I am actually, if you bothered reading, that archers suffer because of assassins.
Buff archer damage and we just have more stealthers.
Buff archer stealth detection, and we have fewer assassins, more archers.

And more stealthers means fewer casual players.

And yes, my problem is that they can attack from stealth and that I can not find them when they restealth.
Your problem seems to be that having stealth/invisbility comes with a high cost.

“And more stealthers means fewer casual players” - Says who?

“my problem is a stealther class stealthing” - So you’ve had a fundamental problem with stealth classes since 2001. Your views will therefore always be negatively bias.

“high cost” - some classes do more damage, some can take more damage, some can stealth. However the only real benefit at present with having stealth on a Ranger is if I’m scouting or adding in fights. If this is what the devs intended then so be it, but that is yet to be determined.

P.S. I do enjoy still having my Ranger at Keep/Tower defences though.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:55 PM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:39 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:25 PM
you mean like assassins kill every other class? again paper daoc from you side.
try to run from enchanter with insta snare dd pet

Yes, you're right, there's no perfect situation where an archer dominates every time. And thank god for that. It's really ridiculous saying that archers are in a bad place because SOMETIMES they get nearsighted (they have purge anyway) and SOMETIMES there is an enchanter pet that snares them! Anyway, the pet doesn't attack instantly, is disruptable, and has shorter max range than all archers by at least 25%. Use your strengths.

blablabla nobody ever said archers want to dominate every time. it maybe not insta but it has such a fast cast time and when you get that you are dead. who said anything about nearsight? also nobody is argueing about archers vs caster/supporter/tank ... its all doable, the only enemy who doesnt have to fear archers are assassins. also any other class has to fear assassins. assassins do not have any natural enemy at the moment. but anyway i know that you only want to keep your privileg to kill all without a fear. keep on stating nonesense, nobody believes you.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 5:29 PM by Druth
randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:51 PM
“And more stealthers means fewer casual players” - Says who?

Just go back and read old VN boards. No kind of class got as much negative attention as stealth classes did.
Crybabies? Sure, but that's what casuals often are perceived as.
And besides, I never claimed to have any documentation for it, it would be near impossible to get. We are writing opinions, and I think I made it clear that I was not saying facts but an opinion.

randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:51 PM
“my problem is a stealther class stealthing” - So you’ve had a fundamental problem with stealth classes since 2001. Your views will therefore always be negatively bias.

If you were even more creative with taking out of context you could write: “my problem is stealther class”
Now, that looks much better?

Or you could actually respond to what I wrote.

randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:51 PM
“high cost” - some classes do more damage, some can take more damage, some can stealth. However the only real benefit at present with having stealth on a Ranger is if I’m scouting or adding in fights. If this is what the devs intended then so be it, but that is yet to be determined.

P.S. I do enjoy still having my Ranger at Keep/Tower defences though.

Add fights, pick fights where people are already wounded?

High cost is really subjective... but I think archers are paying a high enough cost (maybe to high) for stealth right now, but I don't think assassins are.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:18 PM by randomeclipse
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 5:29 PM
randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:51 PM
“And more stealthers means fewer casual players” - Says who?

Just go back and read old VN boards. No kind of class got as much negative attention as stealth classes did.
Crybabies? Sure, but that's what casuals often are perceived as.
And besides, I never claimed to have any documentation for it, it would be near impossible to get. We are writing opinions, and I think I made it clear that I was not saying facts but an opinion.

randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:51 PM
“my problem is a stealther class stealthing” - So you’ve had a fundamental problem with stealth classes since 2001. Your views will therefore always be negatively bias.

If you were even more creative with taking out of context you could write: “my problem is stealther class”
Now, that looks much better?

Or you could actually respond to what I wrote.

randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:51 PM
“high cost” - some classes do more damage, some can take more damage, some can stealth. However the only real benefit at present with having stealth on a Ranger is if I’m scouting or adding in fights. If this is what the devs intended then so be it, but that is yet to be determined.

P.S. I do enjoy still having my Ranger at Keep/Tower defences though.

Add fights, pick fights where people are already wounded?

High cost is really subjective... but I think archers are paying a high enough cost (maybe to high) for stealth right now, but I don't think assassins are.

I guess we shall agree to disagree on most points, but remind me not to play on your DAoC server 😎😉.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:28 PM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:14 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:51 AM
Archers and Assassins were intended to kill Casters in the original rock-paper-scissors design of DAOC. With Paper (aka Casters) having self-casted BT, Nearsight, Quickcast, PD, and other anti-Archer (Scissors), the game is out of balance.

So being that yes, point 2) is correct (Rock crushes Scissors) what do you propose for point 1)? Stealthers were originally designed as Caster killers just as Casters were originally designed as Tank killers. Tanks were originally designed as Stealther Killers.

Good question. The archer is intended to be effective in killing stray caster/supports, as well as pepper/disrupt visible groups. If you allow them to 2-shot casters under all circumstances, they become nothing more than gankers, with no real counterplay (see the video--that's what he's doing, 2 shotting, except to everybody).

The archer already has the tools to defeat a lone caster nearly everytime, and never die, because if caster charges the archer, the archer can simply flee and restealth--which, is much easier than it was in classic (and for the better, in my opinion).

Flee? That's just sad. Archers (unlike Casters) are supposed to have the tools to at least finish up a target when ranged combat is no longer viable. However the whine factor pushed Mythic into giving Casters some tools to handle a target when they are in Melee range, which should have been an Archer's forte.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:31 PM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:39 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:25 PM
you mean like assassins kill every other class? again paper daoc from you side.
try to run from enchanter with insta snare dd pet

Yes, you're right, there's no perfect situation where an archer dominates every time. And thank god for that. It's really ridiculous saying that archers are in a bad place because SOMETIMES they get nearsighted (they have purge anyway) and SOMETIMES there is an enchanter pet that snares them! Anyway, the pet doesn't attack instantly, is disruptable, and has shorter max range than all archers by at least 25%. Use your strengths.

Nearsight is total garbage and shouldn't be in game. It's intended use is as yet another anti-Archer tool.

I usually run with Visi groups so I don't "sometimes" get nearsighted. I get nearsighted every time my group faces a caster group.

Nearsight and self casted BT needs to be removed from game. Period.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:36 PM by Isavyr
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:28 PM
Flee? That's just sad. Archers (unlike Casters) are supposed to have the tools to at least finish up a target when ranged combat is no longer viable. However the whine factor pushed Mythic into giving Casters some tools to handle a target when they are in Melee range, which should have been an Archer's forte.

I disagree with you here. I don't think killing is always the answer (start music). Most of the time, you'll be able to kill the lone caster before they realize what's going on--, currently. But in those situations where the lone caster is fully buffed up, skilled, the correct type of caster to have a chance, and by sheer luck faces you right as you shoot, running is logical. But this isn't a loss--it's just a reset to set up another opener. If they are a poor player, you will get a chance to defeat them.

To me, this isn't so different from most classes in this game--bards/healers often flee because they caught the enemy sorc at an inopportune approach (he suddenly sees you, maybe he is at higher elevation too giving him bonus range). Does that mean the bard and healer are bad classes because the range advantage of sorc is higher? No. You adjust with EVERY character in this game. Sometimes your advantages but nullified--you have to adjust.

If you've played overwatch, you know that flankers prey on unawareness. Sometimes you have to flee. This doesn't make flankers garbage--that is what they do.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:43 PM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:36 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:28 PM
Flee? That's just sad. Archers (unlike Casters) are supposed to have the tools to at least finish up a target when ranged combat is no longer viable. However the whine factor pushed Mythic into giving Casters some tools to handle a target when they are in Melee range, which should have been an Archer's forte.

I disagree with you here. I don't think killing is always the answer (start music). Most of the time, you'll be able to kill the lone caster before they realize what's going on--, currently. But in those situations where the lone caster is fully buffed up, skilled, the correct type of caster to have a chance, and by sheer luck faces you right as you shoot, running is logical. But this isn't a loss--it's just a reset to set up another opener. If they are a poor player, you will get a chance to defeat them.

To me, this isn't so different from most classes in this game--bards/healers often flee because they caught the enemy sorc at an inopportune approach (he suddenly sees you, maybe he is at higher elevation too giving him bonus range). Does that mean the bard and healer are bad classes because the range advantage of sorc is higher? No. You adjust with EVERY character in this game. Sometimes your advantages but nullified--you have to adjust.

If you've played overwatch, you know that flankers prey on unawareness. Sometimes you have to flee. This doesn't make flankers garbage--that is what they do.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Bards and healers are utility classes whereas Archers are a hybrid DPS class. I think one of the worst initial design decisions by Mythic was to make Archers as stealthers. This in turn has led to the ganker mentality which has crippled Archer game play (in the minds of the Archer players no less). While I am not saying they should have Caster levels of DPS, there is an issue with Archer viability in RvR. I am talking real RvR, not "multiple stealthers ganking solos at MGs RvR".
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:55 PM by Isavyr
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:43 PM
Isavyr wrote: If you've played overwatch, you know that flankers prey on unawareness. Sometimes you have to flee. This doesn't make flankers garbage--that is what they do.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Bards and healers are utility classes whereas Archers are a hybrid DPS class. I think one of the worst initial design decisions by Mythic was to make Archers as stealthers. This in turn has led to the ganker mentality which has crippled Archer game play (in the minds of the Archer players no less). While I am not saying they should have Caster levels of DPS, there is an issue with Archer viability in RvR. I am talking real RvR, not "multiple stealthers ganking solos at MGs RvR".

The point of my analogy is about adjusting to the enemy--not the classes. You're getting too focused on the details, which are irrelevant to the analogy. Read again my comment about Overwatch--if you've played it, you'll hopefully understand that fleeing is routine part of flanking, which archers are.

But I agree with you, I don't think archers are optimized. I think they're OK, but they could be a lot better designed. However, we're working within the classic framework, which doesn't give us a lot of leeway, in my opinion. Every suggestion I've seen so far only adds to their "ganking", or expanding their abilities beyond their niche.

I think the ideal direction is to work on them within the flanker niche, making them better at getting in and out of fights, and disrupting the enemy. Not more damage, not better melee capabilities.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:19 PM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:55 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:43 PM
Isavyr wrote: If you've played overwatch, you know that flankers prey on unawareness. Sometimes you have to flee. This doesn't make flankers garbage--that is what they do.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Bards and healers are utility classes whereas Archers are a hybrid DPS class. I think one of the worst initial design decisions by Mythic was to make Archers as stealthers. This in turn has led to the ganker mentality which has crippled Archer game play (in the minds of the Archer players no less). While I am not saying they should have Caster levels of DPS, there is an issue with Archer viability in RvR. I am talking real RvR, not "multiple stealthers ganking solos at MGs RvR".

The point of my analogy is about adjusting to the enemy--not the classes. You're getting too focused on the details, which are irrelevant to the analogy. Read again my comment about Overwatch--if you've played it, you'll hopefully understand that fleeing is routine part of flanking, which archers are.

But I agree with you, I don't think archers are optimized. I think they're OK, but they could be a lot better designed. However, we're working within the classic framework, which doesn't give us a lot of leeway, in my opinion. Every suggestion I've seen so far only adds to their "ganking", or expanding their abilities beyond their niche.

I think the ideal direction is to work on them within the flanker niche, making them better at getting in and out of fights, and disrupting the enemy. Not more damage, not better melee capabilities.

IDK where you are getting this flanker only niche.

You think they should not have better than evade 3. I assume so you can easily beat them.
Never mind hunters get their own weapon type and rangers get dw just like assassins.

You think they should not get better stealth detection. I assume so you can continue perfing them from stealth without a problem.

You think they should be a flanker from an entirely different game. Basically a hybrid who is too weak to fight, and it's range dps is beaten by anyone equipping a small shield without spec or (you guessed it) any class with high evade (assassins)

You want them only capabile of running away and ganking others fight.... But to not be a gankering class....

IDK what to tell you. There is no fix for that kind of thinking.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:36 PM by Isavyr
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:19 PM
[1] IDK where you are getting this flanker only niche.
You think they should be a flanker from an entirely different game. Basically a hybrid who is too weak to fight, and it's range dps is beaten by anyone equipping a small shield without spec or (you guessed it) any class with high evade (assassins)

[2] You think they should not have better than evade 3. I assume so you can easily beat them.
You think they should not get better stealth detection. I assume so you can continue perfing them from stealth without a problem.

[3] You want them only capable of running away and ganking others fight.... But to not be a gankering class....

1) The original tools--longer ranger, stealth (and for ranger/hunter, run speed boost)--clearly mark them for the flanker role. It's an archetype, it doesn't matter whether DAOC has historically used the terminology or not.

2a) I don't make suggestions so that I can succeed more. I feel viable on every class I play. I make recommendations based on what I see as weaknesses in a class, not because I want to personally benefit from it. In fact, everyone benefits when every class is really strong; it makes you want to play every class because they're all so unique and fun.

2b) I don't even play my assassin that much. It's a very inefficient experience--strictly for fun. They have a lot of downtime, a lot of travel time, are expensive to maintain, and are not efficient RP-earners. They are, in my opinion, strictly about the experience--like a yacht.

3) I don't champion Archers to be better gankers. In my view, ganking is when you kill a target without any counterplay available to them--like 2-shotting. It's unhealthy gameplay. This is why I don't champion greater damage for archer. They have downsides (weak vs assassins), and instead of trying to remove those weaknesses, I'd rather see them stronger in their primary given role (ranged, flanker).

In this regard, I think their bow damage is acceptable, though unfortunately high bow, and high stealth specialization yields little reward. I agree, ideally, that this should be changed.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:42 PM by Ganil
Anyway, for me it's pretty simple. I'll keep playing my archer a couple of weeks, and if nothing change reroll a nightshade ^^'.

My archer is fun don't get me wrong, but the ppl I can successfully 1v1 are people who aren't lv50 yet and afks.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:46 PM by Niget
Ganil wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:42 PM
Anyway, for me it's pretty simple. I'll keep playing my archer a couple of weeks, and if nothing change reroll a nightshade ^^'.

My archer is fun don't get me wrong, but the ppl I can successfully 1v1 are people who aren't lv50 yet and afks.

That view is shared by many!
Prepare for assassin zergs!
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:55 PM by inoeth
dont even mind answering this "Isavyr" troll.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:55 PM by Quik
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:46 PM
Ganil wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:42 PM
Anyway, for me it's pretty simple. I'll keep playing my archer a couple of weeks, and if nothing change reroll a nightshade ^^'.

My archer is fun don't get me wrong, but the ppl I can successfully 1v1 are people who aren't lv50 yet and afks.

That view is shared by many!
Prepare for assassin zergs!

Sooner rather then later.

There isn't an hour that goes by that I don't see a stealthier group forming asking for more.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:56 PM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:36 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:19 PM
[1] IDK where you are getting this flanker only niche.
You think they should be a flanker from an entirely different game. Basically a hybrid who is too weak to fight, and it's range dps is beaten by anyone equipping a small shield without spec or (you guessed it) any class with high evade (assassins)

[2] You think they should not have better than evade 3. I assume so you can easily beat them.
You think they should not get better stealth detection. I assume so you can continue perfing them from stealth without a problem.

[3] You want them only capable of running away and ganking others fight.... But to not be a gankering class....

1) The original tools--longer ranger, stealth (and for ranger/hunter, run speed boost)--clearly mark them for the flanker role. It's an archetype, it doesn't matter whether DAOC has historically used the terminology or not.

2a) I don't make suggestions so that I can succeed more. I feel viable on every class I play. I make recommendations based on what I see as weaknesses in a class, not because I want to personally benefit from it. In fact, everyone benefits when every class is really strong; it makes you want to play every class because they're all so unique and fun.

2b) I don't even play my assassin that much. It's a very inefficient experience--strictly for fun. They have a lot of downtime, a lot of travel time, are expensive to maintain, and are not efficient RP-earners. They are, in my opinion, strictly about the experience--like a yacht.

3) I don't champion Archers to be better gankers. In my view, ganking is when you kill a target without any counterplay available to them--like 2-shotting. It's unhealthy gameplay. This is why I don't champion greater damage for archer. They have downsides (weak vs assassins), and instead of trying to remove those weaknesses, I'd rather see them stronger in their primary given role (ranged, flanker).

In this regard, I think their bow damage is acceptable, though unfortunately high bow, and high stealth specialization yields little reward. I agree, ideally, that this should be changed.

If their bow damage is acceptable, then what gain is there to be had at high bow if damage doesn't rise.
Making high stealth spec a thing will kill the arch type altogether. They are a hybrid and that would take away from melee too much.

So a 1.65 archer without the ability to augment melee capability, nerfed bow damage, and horrible stealth.

Specing a ranger without melee is a waste of the class. Path finding is all but useless here. No defense to back up the duel wield, and many fights start with said ranger perfed because everyone and their mom plays an assassin.

At least hunters get a pet in their almost useless line. But it won't snare so that is almost moot if they spec high in stealth and loose weapon spec.

Scouts have to live long enough to get slam twice before they can do anything.

But the class over all is fine...... They never needed any of those ras. Just group up. That's the only way to win is a solid 2 archers vs 1 anything else
Sat 9 Feb 2019 8:04 PM by Isavyr
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:56 PM
[1] If their bow damage is acceptable, then what gain is there to be had at high bow if damage doesn't rise.
Making high stealth spec a thing will kill the arch type altogether. They are a hybrid and that would take away from melee too much.

[2] So a 1.65 archer without the ability to augment melee capability, nerfed bow damage, and horrible stealth.


1) "Utility" instead of raw damage--penetrating Arrow III, partial bladeturn penetrations, or defense penetration, or new types of attacks, example. Possibly adjust the entire bow line so that low bow spec is weaker at the low-end. Currently can do respectable bow-damage with little investment.

2) Faster stealth runspeed would make it harder for assassins to open up on archers on the move. Assassins would instead have to settle more frequently for any-time style openers. This indirectly puts the archer in situations where their melee is more equitable. This kills two birds with one stone, in my opinion.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 8:08 PM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 8:04 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:56 PM
[1] If their bow damage is acceptable, then what gain is there to be had at high bow if damage doesn't rise.
Making high stealth spec a thing will kill the arch type altogether. They are a hybrid and that would take away from melee too much.

[2] So a 1.65 archer without the ability to augment melee capability, nerfed bow damage, and horrible stealth.


1) "Utility" instead of raw damage--penetrating Arrow III, partial bladeturn penetrations, or defense penetration, or new types of attacks, example. Possibly adjust the entire bow line so that low bow spec is weaker at the low-end. Currently can do respectable bow-damage with little investment.

2) Faster stealth runspeed would make it harder for assassins to open up on archers on the move. Assassins would instead have to settle more frequently for any-time style openers. This indirectly puts the archer in situations where their melee is more equitable. This kills two birds with one stone, in my opinion.

No.. with lack luster evade. Every hit makes it through... Thats just not enough to make me spec 50 bow. I'm speced 40 and unless that 50 ability pops all bt, it is useless.

Lol at high stealth spec making melee useable against assassins.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:34 PM by inoeth
more stealth speed -> stronger doppler effect -> better chance for assasins to perf -> isavyr trollin again
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:54 PM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:34 PM
more stealth speed -> stronger doppler effect -> better chance for assasins to perf -> isavyr trollin again

I don't know anything about this doppler effect in DAOC. Can you provide documentation about this mechanic?

I thought server updated character position by set interval, not dynamically based on character speed.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 11:06 PM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 8:04 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:56 PM
[1] If their bow damage is acceptable, then what gain is there to be had at high bow if damage doesn't rise.
Making high stealth spec a thing will kill the arch type altogether. They are a hybrid and that would take away from melee too much.

[2] So a 1.65 archer without the ability to augment melee capability, nerfed bow damage, and horrible stealth.


1) "Utility" instead of raw damage--penetrating Arrow III, partial bladeturn penetrations, or defense penetration, or new types of attacks, example. Possibly adjust the entire bow line so that low bow spec is weaker at the low-end. Currently can do respectable bow-damage with little investment.

2) Faster stealth runspeed would make it harder for assassins to open up on archers on the move. Assassins would instead have to settle more frequently for any-time style openers. This indirectly puts the archer in situations where their melee is more equitable. This kills two birds with one stone, in my opinion.

No.. with lack luster evade. Every hit makes it through... Thats just not enough to make me spec 50 bow. I'm speced 40 and unless that 50 ability pops all bt, it is useless.

Lol at high stealth spec making melee useable against assassins.
Sun 10 Feb 2019 2:14 AM by Akopra
Oh no don't buff us, i chose huntress because i think it was the weakest stealther of Phoenix overall, yes i'm a bit silly ! ^^

Ok more seriously i think something have to be done with bow spec too, for the moment there is no advantadge to go more than 35 bow (for rapid fire 1) i'd say, the increase of damage are too low for sure. And i think something have to be done with stealth too, i don't see why assassins see us more far than us, honestly, it should be the reverse (or draw) because the assassins have to beat us at same stuff/level/rr in melee duel... even if i find it fun to try to dodge assassins positions finaly, it's a gameplay ! ^^

But without that, the most frustrating for me is the bug with DD proc on armor, when an arrow proc that on an ennemy, you must wait 3 sec to refire again (not the case for casters or melees for sure when it procs against them, it's only for us, a real privilege !! :p)
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:15 AM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:54 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:34 PM
more stealth speed -> stronger doppler effect -> better chance for assasins to perf -> isavyr trollin again

I don't know anything about this doppler effect in DAOC. Can you provide documentation about this mechanic?

I thought server updated character position by set interval, not dynamically based on character speed.

sure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4OnBYrbCjY
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:22 AM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:15 AM
sure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4OnBYrbCjY

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I will ignore your posts from now on.
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:33 AM by Emeryc
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:14 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:51 AM
Archers and Assassins were intended to kill Casters in the original rock-paper-scissors design of DAOC. With Paper (aka Casters) having self-casted BT, Nearsight, Quickcast, PD, and other anti-Archer (Scissors), the game is out of balance.

So being that yes, point 2) is correct (Rock crushes Scissors) what do you propose for point 1)? Stealthers were originally designed as Caster killers just as Casters were originally designed as Tank killers. Tanks were originally designed as Stealther Killers.

Good question. The archer is intended to be effective in killing stray caster/supports, as well as pepper/disrupt visible groups. If you allow them to 2-shot casters under all circumstances, they become nothing more than gankers, with no real counterplay (see the video--that's what he's doing, 2 shotting, except to everybody).

The archer already has the tools to defeat a lone caster nearly everytime, and never die, because if caster charges the archer, the archer can simply flee and restealth--which, is much easier than it was in classic (and for the better, in my opinion).

Sorry Isavyr, but I need to call bullsh*t on this. This is absolutely untrue. The caster has a profound advantage over an archer, especially in a 1v1 scenario. In fact, when the huge disparity was pointed out to Mythic, years ago, the response BY SANYA AND MYTHIC was, "... this is not a good match-up for the archer."

The absolute best an Archer can hope for versus a caster is to not die. Played close to correctly, the caster will kill the archer a majority of the time and escape the rest. The caster MUST make a large mistake to die to the archer; the archer, however, can play it perfectly and often still lose.

Isavyr wrote: Possibly adjust the entire bow line so that low bow spec is weaker at the low-end.

Let me just get this straight... you want to improve Archery by making it WEAKER?
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:46 AM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:54 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:34 PM
more stealth speed -> stronger doppler effect -> better chance for assasins to perf -> isavyr trollin again

I don't know anything about this doppler effect in DAOC. Can you provide documentation about this mechanic?

I thought server updated character position by set interval, not dynamically based on character speed.

https://www.uthgard.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26656

Stealth detection standing still:





Stealth detection while moving:
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:08 AM by Isavyr
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:46 AM
https://www.uthgard.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26656


Hmm, the graphic shown doesn't make sense, because there's no wave in DAOC, and waves are necessary to explain changes in frequency. So unless I'm missing something, that's just wrong. But I am really curious to see it explained from the coding perspective, if it is true. It might exist--but those pictures aren't right. It's probably a moot point, anyway, because if the devs are able to code it such that higher speed = worse detection, then they can also do the opposite.
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:46 AM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:08 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:46 AM
https://www.uthgard.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26656


Hmm, the graphic shown doesn't make sense, because there's no wave in DAOC, and waves are necessary to explain changes in frequency. So unless I'm missing something, that's just wrong. But I am really curious to see it explained from the coding perspective, if it is true. It might exist--but those pictures aren't right. It's probably a moot point, anyway, because if the devs are able to code it such that higher speed = worse detection, then they can also do the opposite.


dude .... everything everyone says is just wrong to you? do you even think about that it is you that might be wrong? are you like that in rl too? do you have actual friends? i cant imagine being someones friend who always thinks he is right even thou he has, obviously, no clue what he is talking about.... it is the, dont know, fifth? thread about archers being weak and you constantly deny that. either you really think everyone else is wrong or you are just trolling. please gtfo of these threads
Sun 10 Feb 2019 9:19 AM by inoeth
just found this video, see for yourself that assassins dont have natural enemys.. this infi killing tanks even without PA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Can1ztc754
Sun 10 Feb 2019 4:45 PM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:46 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:08 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:46 AM
https://www.uthgard.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26656


Hmm, the graphic shown doesn't make sense, because there's no wave in DAOC, and waves are necessary to explain changes in frequency. So unless I'm missing something, that's just wrong. But I am really curious to see it explained from the coding perspective, if it is true. It might exist--but those pictures aren't right. It's probably a moot point, anyway, because if the devs are able to code it such that higher speed = worse detection, then they can also do the opposite.


dude .... everything everyone says is just wrong to you? do you even think about that it is you that might be wrong? are you like that in rl too? do you have actual friends? i cant imagine being someones friend who always thinks he is right even thou he has, obviously, no clue what he is talking about.... it is the, dont know, fifth? thread about archers being weak and you constantly deny that. either you really think everyone else is wrong or you are just trolling. please gtfo of these threads

Sorry dude, you didn't supply any evidence that the doppler effect is used, only how doppler effect works--which you evidently don't understand. The Uthgard thread appeared to use it as an analogy--not a literal example. Don't know why you get so ruffled, because as I said, it doesn't even matter because they could code a counter to that effect. You just look for reasons to argue!

You've been petulant through these threads, calling me a troll, avoiding replies to my points, making unsupported claims, and persistently hostile that we don't agree. Move on with dignity. You'll be OK.
Sun 10 Feb 2019 4:55 PM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 4:45 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:46 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:08 AM
Hmm, the graphic shown doesn't make sense, because there's no wave in DAOC, and waves are necessary to explain changes in frequency. So unless I'm missing something, that's just wrong. But I am really curious to see it explained from the coding perspective, if it is true. It might exist--but those pictures aren't right. It's probably a moot point, anyway, because if the devs are able to code it such that higher speed = worse detection, then they can also do the opposite.


dude .... everything everyone says is just wrong to you? do you even think about that it is you that might be wrong? are you like that in rl too? do you have actual friends? i cant imagine being someones friend who always thinks he is right even thou he has, obviously, no clue what he is talking about.... it is the, dont know, fifth? thread about archers being weak and you constantly deny that. either you really think everyone else is wrong or you are just trolling. please gtfo of these threads

Sorry dude, you didn't supply any evidence that the doppler effect is used, only how doppler effect works--which you evidently don't understand. The Uthgard thread appeared to use it as an analogy--not a literal example. Don't know why you get so ruffled, because as I said, it doesn't even matter because they could code a counter to that effect. You just look for reasons to argue!

You've been petulant through these threads, calling me a troll, avoiding replies to my points, making unsupported claims, and persistently hostile that we don't agree. Move on with dignity. You'll be OK.

they could but they didnt you can test that yourself man
Sun 10 Feb 2019 4:56 PM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 4:55 PM
they could but they didnt you can test that yourself man

That's your best argument? "Go test it, I'm sure it works that way". This is exactly the problem, you cannot have discussion with unsupported claims. That you want to stick to a point that doesn't even matter, because they could code countermeasures, demonstrates my point amply. No need to discuss further. Moving on.
Sun 10 Feb 2019 5:15 PM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 4:55 PM
they could but they didnt you can test that yourself man

That's your best argument? "Go test it, I'm sure it works that way". This is exactly the problem, you cannot have discussion with unsupported claims. That you want to stick to a point that doesn't even matter, because they could code countermeasures, demonstrates my point amply. No need to discuss further. Moving on.

if you had 125 range when running towards an assassin you would see them, but you are not... PA comes out of nowhere -> doppler effect.
man it just no fun to talk to you at all you constantly deny all facts and behave like child.
Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:02 PM by Sepplord
I have never heard of stealthdetection being waves, can anyone provide any proof about that and possible when it got changed to waves?

Back in classic at least it wasnt waves, it was a AoE-tick around you, not a wave moving out

The thing is if an archer is 125+1 units away from the Assassin when the detection tick happens then he can move into under 125range before the next tick happens. If he had been at 125 when the first tick happened he would have seen the assassin earlier. Thats why sometimes Assassins come out of nowhere or another archer has almost past you when you see them


(If i remember right there is also a roll for detection that was to be passed otherwise you have to roll again next tick...but that could be wonky memory)
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:55 PM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 4:55 PM
they could but they didnt you can test that yourself man

That's your best argument? "Go test it, I'm sure it works that way". This is exactly the problem, you cannot have discussion with unsupported claims. That you want to stick to a point that doesn't even matter, because they could code countermeasures, demonstrates my point amply. No need to discuss further. Moving on.

Go read the thread that I posted instead of just looking at the shiny graphics. Maybe then you will understand what we are all talking about.
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:23 PM by Isavyr
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:55 PM
Go read the thread that I posted instead of just looking at the shiny graphics. Maybe then you will understand what we are all talking about.

Turning up the heat, huh? Of course I read the post, you should see that from my replies. Going into it bit by bit: one person says "it works this way"--no evidence that it actually does. Another person says "nice analogy". Another says pulse system (which is ambiguous) is uthgard mechanic. Lastly, poster Borog seemed to be suggest it doesn't radiate--which is exactly what's required for doppler effect, and then we're back to personal experience sharing. That's not evidence, Cade.

Look, I may be wrong--I had never heard of this mechanic before, and it seems nonsensical (I imagine a pulse effect would be more computing than a simple "detect all targets within x range at a given moment". That's why I asked for evidence. It's a non-issue anyway--I asked only out of curiosity--because if it's true, you could easily code stealth to not have this effect--it's all about the coding. The entire thing feels like a distraction, because the fundamental suggestion of faster stealth speed for archers was never addressed.
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:53 PM by Emeryc
Can we please get back to discussing Archers and Archery?
Sun 10 Feb 2019 9:32 PM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:23 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:55 PM
Go read the thread that I posted instead of just looking at the shiny graphics. Maybe then you will understand what we are all talking about.

Turning up the heat, huh? Of course I read the post, you should see that from my replies. Going into it bit by bit: one person says "it works this way"--no evidence that it actually does. Another person says "nice analogy". Another says pulse system (which is ambiguous) is uthgard mechanic. Lastly, poster Borog seemed to be suggest it doesn't radiate--which is exactly what's required for doppler effect, and then we're back to personal experience sharing. That's not evidence, Cade.

Look, I may be wrong--I had never heard of this mechanic before, and it seems nonsensical (I imagine a pulse effect would be more computing than a simple "detect all targets within x range at a given moment". That's why I asked for evidence. It's a non-issue anyway--I asked only out of curiosity--because if it's true, you could easily code stealth to not have this effect--it's all about the coding. The entire thing feels like a distraction, because the fundamental suggestion of faster stealth speed for archers was never addressed.

He was explaining the problem with faster stealth walk and short detection range.
You just don't get it.
Quit trolling man.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:39 AM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:23 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:55 PM
Go read the thread that I posted instead of just looking at the shiny graphics. Maybe then you will understand what we are all talking about.

Turning up the heat, huh? Of course I read the post, you should see that from my replies. Going into it bit by bit: one person says "it works this way"--no evidence that it actually does. Another person says "nice analogy". Another says pulse system (which is ambiguous) is uthgard mechanic. Lastly, poster Borog seemed to be suggest it doesn't radiate--which is exactly what's required for doppler effect, and then we're back to personal experience sharing. That's not evidence, Cade.

Look, I may be wrong--I had never heard of this mechanic before, and it seems nonsensical (I imagine a pulse effect would be more computing than a simple "detect all targets within x range at a given moment". That's why I asked for evidence. It's a non-issue anyway--I asked only out of curiosity--because if it's true, you could easily code stealth to not have this effect--it's all about the coding. The entire thing feels like a distraction, because the fundamental suggestion of faster stealth speed for archers was never addressed.

It's considered a "pulse" because stealth detection is not always on. Instead stealth detection is checked instantaneously at regular small intervals of time. It has always been like this since live launched. It's probably coded this way in order to reduce server side load. It's okay if you weren't aware of it before, but you are aware of it now.

Because it's a detection "ping" at regular intervals, the Doppler effect does apply to stealth detection. Whether or not you choose to believe it is up to you. Ignorance is a choice.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:42 AM by Sepplord
An effect similar to the doppler effect CAN apply, depending on when the two people enter each others detection ranges, but it doesn't always apply like the doppler effekt would.
Faster movespeed does increase the chances of seeing someone later, but each detection-ping you always get the full detection range around your postion at that moment.

There is alos the misconception that it matters who is moving towards whom, while that has no effect with the fixed-radius-detection-ping that daoc uses. Only relative movement has an effect. It doesn't matter if archer is stationary and asssin is moving towards him or vice cersa
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:51 AM by Jaegaer
The problem stays the same. Given the same Stealth spec an Assassin will see an Archer almost always before the Archer sees the Assassin. And almost always can he choose to avoid the Archer or, if the Archer is stationary, he can position himself behind the archer and approach him.

If the pulse favors him he can be inside BS range before the Archer has time to react but if the pulse is luckily happening just as the Assassin enters the Archers detection range, the time to react is very short.

And even if the Archer can react in time, the Assassin is so much ahead in terms of melee value that the Archer has next to no chance.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:01 AM by Cadebrennus
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:42 AM
An effect similar to the doppler effect CAN apply, depending on when the two people enter each others detection ranges, but it doesn't always apply like the doppler effekt would.
Faster movespeed does increase the chances of seeing someone later, but each detection-ping you always get the full detection range around your postion at that moment.

There is alos the misconception that it matters who is moving towards whom, while that has no effect with the fixed-radius-detection-ping that daoc uses. Only relative movement has an effect. It doesn't matter if archer is stationary and asssin is moving towards him or vice cersa

The Doppler effect is active because the ping fires outward from the position you WERE at, not the position you ARE at, if you are in a state of continuous movement.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:03 AM by Sepplord
it might actually be, because of the higher movement speed compared to base-stealth movement speed. IT definately exacerbates the problem.

Still i think it is a bit weird that the proposal of even higher stealth-speed for archer is turned into a nerf by the discussionpartners. It just shows how ridicolous this discussion is being done by some people in this thread.
If higher stealthspeed is a nerf for archers, then a "buff" would be to decrease their movement speed in stealth. ... I hope i don't have to explain how stupid that is
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:08 AM by Sepplord
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:01 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:42 AM
An effect similar to the doppler effect CAN apply, depending on when the two people enter each others detection ranges, but it doesn't always apply like the doppler effekt would.
Faster movespeed does increase the chances of seeing someone later, but each detection-ping you always get the full detection range around your postion at that moment.

There is alos the misconception that it matters who is moving towards whom, while that has no effect with the fixed-radius-detection-ping that daoc uses. Only relative movement has an effect. It doesn't matter if archer is stationary and asssin is moving towards him or vice cersa

The Doppler effect is active because the ping fires outward from the position you WERE at, not the position you ARE at, if you are in a state of continuous movement.

It's considered a "pulse" because stealth detection is not always on. Instead stealth detection is checked instantaneously at regular small intervals of time. It has always been like this since live launched. It's probably coded this way in order to reduce server side load. It's okay if you weren't aware of it before, but you are aware of it now.


You are directly contradicting yourself now. There is nothing that "fires out" it's a check at a specific time, at your position of that time, if there are people in a certain radius around you.

Imagine two stealthers within their detection range, moving in the same direction at the same speed. With doppler effect the one in the back would never detect the one in the front, while the one in the front sees the one behind him. That is untrue for stealth detection in DAoC. Because *drumroll* there is no wave going from center to the outside of the stealthdetection. It's like you said before you 180° change your mind, instantaneous in a radius
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:11 AM by Cadebrennus
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:08 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:01 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:42 AM
An effect similar to the doppler effect CAN apply, depending on when the two people enter each others detection ranges, but it doesn't always apply like the doppler effekt would.
Faster movespeed does increase the chances of seeing someone later, but each detection-ping you always get the full detection range around your postion at that moment.

There is alos the misconception that it matters who is moving towards whom, while that has no effect with the fixed-radius-detection-ping that daoc uses. Only relative movement has an effect. It doesn't matter if archer is stationary and asssin is moving towards him or vice cersa

The Doppler effect is active because the ping fires outward from the position you WERE at, not the position you ARE at, if you are in a state of continuous movement.

It's considered a "pulse" because stealth detection is not always on. Instead stealth detection is checked instantaneously at regular small intervals of time. It has always been like this since live launched. It's probably coded this way in order to reduce server side load. It's okay if you weren't aware of it before, but you are aware of it now.


You are directly contradicting yourself now. There is nothing that "fires out" it's a check at a specific time, at your position of that time, if there are people in a certain radius around you.

Imagine two stealthers within their detection range, moving in the same direction at the same speed. With doppler effect the one in the back would never detect the one in the front, while the one in the front sees the one behind him. That is untrue for stealth detection in DAoC. Because *drumroll* there is no wave going from center to the outside of the stealthdetection. It's like you said before you 180° change your mind, instantaneous in a radius

You're taking the "firing out" that I said a little too literally. You are correct that it is an instantaneous pulse. However the instantaneous pulse emanates from a position that you are constantly moving away from if you are moving forward, hence the Doppler effect. That's pretty much it.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:35 AM by Sepplord
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:11 AM
You're taking the "firing out" that I said a little too literally. You are correct that it is an instantaneous pulse. However the instantaneous pulse emanates from a position that you are constantly moving away from if you are moving forward, hence the Doppler effect. That's pretty much it.

It'S not a pulse though that emanates...it's a radius-check at specific intervalls. There is a huge difference between the way the current system works and an actual doppler effect. It is not a Doppler-effect at all, and calling it that is misleading and false.


With a doppler effect the detectionrange in movement direction would decrease the detectionrange. The higher the movementspeed, the smaller the detectionrange in movement direction would be, and the greater it would be in the opposing direction.
That is not the case in DAoC. At the time of the detection-tick your detection range is max-range. In between it is Zero. No matter how fast you move, you can still detect a person at maxrange if he is at that maxrange when the tick happens.


Again i will take the example i posted earlier:

Two archers moving in the same direction at the same speed with 124units range between them (same applies to assasins moving with 249distance between them. If we would apply the doppler effect, the archer in the back would never detect the archer in the front, while he actually detects him on the first detection-tick.


The Doppler-effect is NOT a good analogy for stealthdetection ingame. It is only use as a buzzword to explain why sometimes people see stealthers that are closer than the detectionrange is. But it comes with a huge load of false assumptions, as soon as we start treating stealth-detection as a wave
Mon 11 Feb 2019 1:28 PM by Pao
Tavi wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f-U-rIX-CU

Here you can see the dmg as it should be. Especially the TS kills of other stealther with resis.

Melee needs no buffs but bow needs love. You don't do any damage.
Only a high rr archer should be able to kill an assassin in melee.

Now you took the bow damage away and created a gimp class with no specialty. Maybe it was done to balance hunter/ranger but scouts are a joke now.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 1:43 PM by Dominus
Nice video. That's how I remember archer damage. Was this video on or about 1.65? Crazy that our archers bow shots hit so low.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 2:04 PM by Sepplord
Pao wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 1:28 PM
Tavi wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f-U-rIX-CU

Here you can see the dmg as it should be. Especially the TS kills of other stealther with resis.

Melee needs no buffs but bow needs love. You don't do any damage.
Only a high rr archer should be able to kill an assassin in melee.

Now you took the bow damage away and created a gimp class with no specialty. Maybe it was done to balance hunter/ranger but scouts are a joke now.

How can anyone watch that video and then think: That's how it should be Oo

I am not against making bow stronger btw. it really seems as if there is a problem, but the video shows an extremely OP and broken state Bow-dmg and if we had those numbers here the game would revolve around archers, and archers only. with that damage 5-6scouts could easily kill fullgrps unless their healers have the finger on grp-instant constantly while roaming...
Mon 11 Feb 2019 2:04 PM by jelzinga_EU
Dominus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 1:43 PM
Nice video. That's how I remember archer damage. Was this video on or about 1.65? Crazy that our archers bow shots hit so low.

This is during the brief era where there was TOA and OF. And I'm all for ungimping archery, but the damage you see there was never REALISTIC damage. This is probably taken during the era where people would see an uber TOA-rog (WOW, 12% heal-bonus, don't care I loose 9% resists to Thrust) and equip it, meaning they had a gimped resist and gimped AF. That and maybe 3 relics give this damage. You can also see most of it is taken while he's still levelling artifacts, so it is safe to assume enemies ran gimped stuff too. Fun to see, but not realistic.

In my opinion the biggest problems with archery on Phoenix are :

a) Reliably delivering the damage. There are too many counters to archery. You can flat-out miss, you can get evaded, you can get blocked and you can get blade-turned.

b) Insufficient reason to spec higher Archery. Speccing higher Archery than 35~ doesn't really do much for damage nor does it do anything for gaining abilities. Rapid Fire 2 isn't better than Rapid Fire 1 from a practical point-of-view and Penetrating Shot only penetrates PBT and not where it would really matter: On a caster his self-BT.

I don't think there is a serious problem with absolute damage-numbers for Archery on Phoenix currently. The problem is the many counters to archery and the lack of scaling above (near) composite-spec.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 2:48 PM by jelzinga_EU
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:11 AM
You're taking the "firing out" that I said a little too literally. You are correct that it is an instantaneous pulse. However the instantaneous pulse emanates from a position that you are constantly moving away from if you are moving forward, hence the Doppler effect. That's pretty much it.

If such a pulse-system would exists (e.g. some sort of tick where the "detection routine" is being run) it makes very little sense to do this at another position then your current position (why would you do that, it would just make the entire process more complex).

In any case I think even if such an update/pulse system would be used on Phoenix the tick-speed is so high that there is no practical reason to assume such a system and I would just stick to the range given by various tests.

Calling it a "doppler-effect" in any case makes my brain hurt
Mon 11 Feb 2019 3:29 PM by Dimir
Call it what you want and explain it how you want, but it is true that on Live and on Phoenix it is easier to see your stealthed opponent before they see you if you are not moving and they are.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 3:44 PM by Isavyr
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 2:04 PM
How can anyone watch that video and then think: That's how it should be Oo

I am not against making bow stronger btw. it really seems as if there is a problem, but the video shows an extremely OP and broken state Bow-dmg and if we had those numbers here the game would revolve around archers, and archers only. with that damage 5-6scouts could easily kill fullgrps unless their healers have the finger on grp-instant constantly while roaming...

More bow damage will just make the archers more ganker-like. They'll kill people in less time, with subsequently less counterplay available to enemies--the video shows the worst-case of this, and I agree that is strongly undesirable.

This thread has illustrated people want different things for the archer. For example:
1) Kill assassins more
2) Able to attack tanks more effectively
3) Able to kill people faster
4) More reason to spec high bow (vague as to what is generally wanted here from a higher spec--more damage? more defense penetration? new abilities?)

#1 and #2 seems like a re-imagining of the archer by expanding on their classical niche, #3 runs into problems with creating a stronger ganker playstyle, and #4 hasn't been clearly drawn out by most commenters.

There's little agreement on what niche the archer should inhabit, or how effective it should be vs various targets, so its no surprise that this topic hasn't progressed very deeply.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 3:50 PM by Sepplord
Dimir wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 3:29 PM
Call it what you want and explain it how you want, but it is true that on Live and on Phoenix it is easier to see your stealthed opponent before they see you if you are not moving and they are.

Any proof on that claim? Or just dismissing everyones arguments and simply stating "this is true though" without any Evidence?

Logical Explanations are no proof....but they are vastly superior to nothing at all
Mon 11 Feb 2019 4:46 PM by jelzinga_EU
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 3:44 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 2:04 PM
How can anyone watch that video and then think: That's how it should be Oo

I am not against making bow stronger btw. it really seems as if there is a problem, but the video shows an extremely OP and broken state Bow-dmg and if we had those numbers here the game would revolve around archers, and archers only. with that damage 5-6scouts could easily kill fullgrps unless their healers have the finger on grp-instant constantly while roaming...

More bow damage will just make the archers more ganker-like. They'll kill people in less time, with subsequently less counterplay available to enemies--the video shows the worst-case of this, and I agree that is strongly undesirable.

This thread has illustrated people want different things for the archer. For example:
1) Kill assassins more
2) Able to attack tanks more effectively
3) Able to kill people faster
4) More reason to spec high bow (vague as to what is generally wanted here from a higher spec--more damage? more defense penetration? new abilities?)

#1 and #2 seems like a re-imagining of the archer by expanding on their classical niche, #3 runs into problems with creating a stronger ganker playstyle, and #4 hasn't been clearly drawn out by most commenters.

There's little agreement on what niche the archer should inhabit, or how effective it should be vs various targets, so its no surprise that this topic hasn't progressed very deeply.

I kinda agree with your assessment. As for point #4 (which i think is also important) you could add utility (like they did on live), scale bow damage better (lower damage with lower (<35) spec, higher when >35 spec compared to it is now) , make penetrating arrow pierce self-BT (for example 50% at 40 spec, 75% at 50 spec), reduced block/evade-rate on higher bow spec, uninterruptable shots at reduced damage etc etc.

Kill assassins and tanks more is the result of broken archery on casters. Archers want to be viable and since it is not really viable vs casters they are looking for other targets. Archery should be a caster-counter but with self-BT not being pierced the oomph is missing on casters and casters survive long enough to be able to quickcast to win interrupt war / send pet / what not. Because archers quickly loose initiative vs casters it is counter-productive to start from range as, once you're interrupted, you have no way to quickly close the gap. Uninterruptable shots (at the cost of damage) could be a way to regain initiative partially; which should then be given out at higher Archery-spec.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:37 PM by Dimir
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 3:50 PM
Dimir wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 3:29 PM
Call it what you want and explain it how you want, but it is true that on Live and on Phoenix it is easier to see your stealthed opponent before they see you if you are not moving and they are.

Any proof on that claim? Or just dismissing everyones arguments and simply stating "this is true though" without any Evidence?

Logical Explanations are no proof....but they are vastly superior to nothing at all

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be dismissive, I just felt everyone was getting to hung up on the wording and not on the experience. Evidence wise, just playing on Phoenix seems to support it. I might do some tests to confirm that here, I can't do that test on Live though. Should be easy enough to get 2 people in voice, stealthed with equal stealth and repeatedly test player A moving toward player B. Player A moves until they see player B. Player B notes how long they see player A moving before player B stops. Do that 10 times and see if there is a pattern or if it feels to random. Would be very interesting to test 1 player in EU and 1 player in NA and then with both in EU and both in NA to see if how that plays out.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:49 PM by Cadebrennus
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:35 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:11 AM
You're taking the "firing out" that I said a little too literally. You are correct that it is an instantaneous pulse. However the instantaneous pulse emanates from a position that you are constantly moving away from if you are moving forward, hence the Doppler effect. That's pretty much it.

It'S not a pulse though that emanates...it's a radius-check at specific intervalls. There is a huge difference between the way the current system works and an actual doppler effect. It is not a Doppler-effect at all, and calling it that is misleading and false.


With a doppler effect the detectionrange in movement direction would decrease the detectionrange. The higher the movementspeed, the smaller the detectionrange in movement direction would be, and the greater it would be in the opposing direction.
That is not the case in DAoC. At the time of the detection-tick your detection range is max-range. In between it is Zero. No matter how fast you move, you can still detect a person at maxrange if he is at that maxrange when the tick happens.


Again i will take the example i posted earlier:

Two archers moving in the same direction at the same speed with 124units range between them (same applies to assasins moving with 249distance between them. If we would apply the doppler effect, the archer in the back would never detect the archer in the front, while he actually detects him on the first detection-tick.


The Doppler-effect is NOT a good analogy for stealthdetection ingame. It is only use as a buzzword to explain why sometimes people see stealthers that are closer than the detectionrange is. But it comes with a huge load of false assumptions, as soon as we start treating stealth-detection as a wave

If it checks at specific intervals and then you move away from the last position that the interval checked at then yes, it does function like a Doppler effect. Test it out with a buddy if you don't believe me.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:37 PM by Isavyr
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:49 PM
If it checks at specific intervals and then you move away from the last position that the interval checked at then yes, it does function like a Doppler effect. Test it out with a buddy if you don't believe me.

This is irrelevant. I don't know why you continue to belabor an unimportant point. I'll PM you with an explanation of Doppler effect, as it's not driving this thread anywhere.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:43 PM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:37 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:49 PM
If it checks at specific intervals and then you move away from the last position that the interval checked at then yes, it does function like a Doppler effect. Test it out with a buddy if you don't believe me.

This is irrelevant. I don't know why you continue to belabor an unimportant point. I'll PM you with an explanation of Doppler effect, as it's not driving this thread anywhere.

I know exactly what a Doppler effect is. Stealth pulse/check/whatever you're being pedantic about functions similar to a Doppler effect if you are moving.

At this point you're just being argumentative to be argumentative. From this point forward I'm going to just ignore you like everyone else is doing.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:50 PM by Zansobar
There have been numerous threads concerning the low bow damage here on Phoenix. It is obvious the devs don't believe it exists, or is an issue if it does exist. So I would draw the conclusion that it is best to move on and play another class that isn't at the bottom of the food chain.

Rewording my above statement - nothing is going to happen to improve the archer's situation...if you think it's fine then have fun playing your archer, if not you should cut your losses and move on to a more enjoyable class (an assassin if you want to play in the stealth game or a visible to reap the benefits of zerg task RvR).
Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:10 PM by worldknown
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:50 PM
There have been numerous threads concerning the low bow damage here on Phoenix. It is obvious the devs don't believe it exists, or is an issue if it does exist. So I would draw the conclusion that it is best to move on and play another class that isn't at the bottom of the food chain.

Rewording my above statement - nothing is going to happen to improve the archer's situation...if you think it's fine then have fun playing your archer, if not you should cut your losses and move on to a more enjoyable class (an assassin if you want to play in the stealth game or a visible to reap the benefits of zerg task RvR).

Sorry Zansobar, I don't subscribe the opinion that if you're not happy with the balance of a class you just move on, especially in a circumstance like this where there is mounting evidence of inbalance for an entire role across the 3 different realms. As evidence of this thread, and the 13 pages of content in 3 days, there are people being vocal about the displeasure with the way its set up now. We all play the game to have fun, no? Why should one of the main elements in DAOC be ignored if a portion of their player base is unhappy, that wouldn't make sense. This game is meant to inclusive of all people.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:11 PM by Cadebrennus
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:50 PM
There have been numerous threads concerning the low bow damage here on Phoenix. It is obvious the devs don't believe it exists, or is an issue if it does exist. So I would draw the conclusion that it is best to move on and play another class that isn't at the bottom of the food chain.

Rewording my above statement - nothing is going to happen to improve the archer's situation...if you think it's fine then have fun playing your archer, if not you should cut your losses and move on to a more enjoyable class (an assassin if you want to play in the stealth game or a visible to reap the benefits of zerg task RvR).

Agreed. Either they don't know (ignorance) or they don't care (apathy).

To properly be part of the "stealth wars" I agree that Archers are wholly ineffective. This is why I advocate just enough points to hide from Visis which is far less than composite 50, because no Archer is going to hide from Assassins.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:36 PM by defiasbandit
Why not just give Archers better stealth detection.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:59 PM by Isavyr
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:36 PM
Why not just give Archers better stealth detection.

For the reasons stated in this thread.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 8:00 PM by Niget
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:36 PM
Why not just give Archers better stealth detection.

13 pages of most people saying that exact thing lol.
Maybe buff bow damage.
Or make a 10% bow damage buff at 50 spec.
Or make them more competitive in melee.
Or increase defense penetration with the bow.
Or fix the buffs so they are are useable.

Increase stealth detection is the top of the list.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 8:01 PM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:59 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:36 PM
Why not just give Archers better stealth detection.

For the reasons stated in this thread.

Because apparently, assassins should in fact be able to perf archers as easily as visis.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 8:10 PM by defiasbandit
Archers are fine. They could use little better stealth detect.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 8:49 PM by Cadebrennus
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 8:10 PM
Archers are fine. They could use little better stealth detect.

Seriously dude? All of your hyperbolic posts about nearly everything being wrong with this game and this is the one thing you say is okay.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:49 PM by Sepplord
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:49 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:35 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:11 AM
You're taking the "firing out" that I said a little too literally. You are correct that it is an instantaneous pulse. However the instantaneous pulse emanates from a position that you are constantly moving away from if you are moving forward, hence the Doppler effect. That's pretty much it.

It'S not a pulse though that emanates...it's a radius-check at specific intervalls. There is a huge difference between the way the current system works and an actual doppler effect. It is not a Doppler-effect at all, and calling it that is misleading and false.


With a doppler effect the detectionrange in movement direction would decrease the detectionrange. The higher the movementspeed, the smaller the detectionrange in movement direction would be, and the greater it would be in the opposing direction.
That is not the case in DAoC. At the time of the detection-tick your detection range is max-range. In between it is Zero. No matter how fast you move, you can still detect a person at maxrange if he is at that maxrange when the tick happens.


Again i will take the example i posted earlier:

Two archers moving in the same direction at the same speed with 124units range between them (same applies to assasins moving with 249distance between them. If we would apply the doppler effect, the archer in the back would never detect the archer in the front, while he actually detects him on the first detection-tick.


The Doppler-effect is NOT a good analogy for stealthdetection ingame. It is only use as a buzzword to explain why sometimes people see stealthers that are closer than the detectionrange is. But it comes with a huge load of false assumptions, as soon as we start treating stealth-detection as a wave

If it checks at specific intervals and then you move away from the last position that the interval checked at then yes, it does function like a Doppler effect. Test it out with a buddy if you don't believe me.

I gave you a detailed example about the difference between checking a radius in specific Intervalls VS having a pulse moving outward from a position at specific intervalls.
Why do you ignore that and just double down on your position? Not what i expected from you Cade.


I also adressed multiple times, where the misconception to compare it to the doppler effect probably comes from. It works to explain one single scenario in stealthing, but it fails several others
Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:55 PM by worldknown
I mean we can agree to just disagree on this Doppler effect thing, -- it doesn't change the fact that archers are gimped in Phoenix
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:01 PM by Cadebrennus
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:49 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:49 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:35 AM
It'S not a pulse though that emanates...it's a radius-check at specific intervalls. There is a huge difference between the way the current system works and an actual doppler effect. It is not a Doppler-effect at all, and calling it that is misleading and false.


With a doppler effect the detectionrange in movement direction would decrease the detectionrange. The higher the movementspeed, the smaller the detectionrange in movement direction would be, and the greater it would be in the opposing direction.
That is not the case in DAoC. At the time of the detection-tick your detection range is max-range. In between it is Zero. No matter how fast you move, you can still detect a person at maxrange if he is at that maxrange when the tick happens.


Again i will take the example i posted earlier:

Two archers moving in the same direction at the same speed with 124units range between them (same applies to assasins moving with 249distance between them. If we would apply the doppler effect, the archer in the back would never detect the archer in the front, while he actually detects him on the first detection-tick.


The Doppler-effect is NOT a good analogy for stealthdetection ingame. It is only use as a buzzword to explain why sometimes people see stealthers that are closer than the detectionrange is. But it comes with a huge load of false assumptions, as soon as we start treating stealth-detection as a wave

If it checks at specific intervals and then you move away from the last position that the interval checked at then yes, it does function like a Doppler effect. Test it out with a buddy if you don't believe me.

I gave you a detailed example about the difference between checking a radius in specific Intervalls VS having a pulse moving outward from a position at specific intervalls.
Why do you ignore that and just double down on your position? Not what i expected from you Case.


I also adressed multiple times, where the misconception to compare it to the doppler effect probably comes from.

I understand what you meant but the check isn't instantaneous as in it lasts only for a milliseconds like a single light wave or a single sound wave. It also does not radiate outwards from a single source like sound or electromagnetic waves. The best analogy I have for how the stealth "ping" works in DAOC is that it is like dropping a lantern that lights up everything hidden for a fraction of a second (but not a millisecond or shorter). If you stand still and keep on dropping these "lanterns" you will see at an equal distance in every direction. However if you are moving forward, you will be dropping lanterns which you will very quickly be reaching the forward edge of the illumination, reducing your "illuminated" distance ahead of you but conversely increasing the "illuminated" distance behind you.

Try this experiment in real life. Get some cheap glow sticks, stand in a darkened room, and move forward while activating each glow stick and dropping it at your feet while moving forward. You will easily see that you have more illumination behind you than in front of you.

Why this is such a hard concept for you guys to understand I just don't know. Maybe you guys just aren't visual people. That's okay, but shitting on people who do get it is not okay.

I will leave this thread with a quote:
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.""
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:08 PM by lourock
I Mained a hunter on live from 2011 to 2017. The most balanced time that I can remember between archers and sins was when MOS was actually purchased most sins would stop at around MOS 5 or 3 at the time before the RAs were changed. Granted this was with the archery overhaul but I was able to get at least 2 shots often and equalize most fights before any melee started ( I played hybrid) I think mos being baked in here may be contributing to the problem.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:12 PM by inoeth
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:01 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:49 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:49 PM
If it checks at specific intervals and then you move away from the last position that the interval checked at then yes, it does function like a Doppler effect. Test it out with a buddy if you don't believe me.

I gave you a detailed example about the difference between checking a radius in specific Intervalls VS having a pulse moving outward from a position at specific intervalls.
Why do you ignore that and just double down on your position? Not what i expected from you Case.


I also adressed multiple times, where the misconception to compare it to the doppler effect probably comes from.

I understand what you meant but the check isn't instantaneous as in it lasts only for a milliseconds like a single light wave or a single sound wave. It also does not radiate outwards from a single source like sound or electromagnetic waves. The best analogy I have for how the stealth "ping" works in DAOC is that it is like dropping a lantern that lights up everything hidden for a fraction of a second (but not a millisecond or shorter). If you stand still and keep on dropping these "lanterns" you will see at an equal distance in every direction. However if you are moving forward, you will be dropping lanterns which you will very quickly be reaching the forward edge of the illumination, reducing your "illuminated" distance ahead of you but conversely increasing the "illuminated" distance behind you.

Try this experiment in real life. Get some cheap glow sticks, stand in a darkened room, and move forward while activating each glow stick and dropping it at your feet while moving forward. You will easily see that you have more illumination behind you than in front of you.

Why this is such a hard concept for you guys to understand I just don't know. Maybe you guys just aren't visual people. That's okay, but shitting on people who do get it is not okay.

I will leave this thread with a quote:
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.""

As much as i disagree with you sometimes, i agree 100% with you this time! Btw who said this? But very common knowledge if you watch the us from outside :p
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:17 PM by Stimmed
I honestly find archer damage fine. But like some have said its to hard to get the dmg to actually connect on some classes. Making BT Pierce at higher spec always pierce for a % of the dmg would be a great way to help vs caster. And more pierce for shield users. Even make crit shot like PA. Where it just always hits and pierces bubble. Not sure if that's gonna make them to strong to kill solo casters though depends on the caster I guess.

If you think bow dmg sucks here uthgard was half this damage or more lol.

Just give all archers/assassins same stealth that's a fine buff and wont be game breaking but give archers a little bit more breathing room. High RR Meele ranger or Meele hunter might give an assassin some trouble with Ras up and if there decently meeled speced. But I don't see the stealth change swinging it so it was how PD rangers were gods early TOA etc. Scounts still gonna struggle in meele though.

I find archers shine more in duos etc. In solo there def harder but they can really do insane dmg in a duo hitting other duos etc. If there positioned correctly.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:38 PM by keen
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:01 PM
Why this is such a hard concept for you guys to understand I just don't know. Maybe you guys just aren't visual people. That's okay, but shitting on people who do get it is not okay.

I will leave this thread with a quote:
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.""
This has nothing to do with beeing visual or not. It is just not a Doppler Effect. The one showing ignorance here is you.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:52 PM by Cadebrennus
keen wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:38 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:01 PM
Why this is such a hard concept for you guys to understand I just don't know. Maybe you guys just aren't visual people. That's okay, but shitting on people who do get it is not okay.

I will leave this thread with a quote:
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.""
This has nothing to do with beeing visual or not. It is just not a Doppler Effect. The one showing ignorance here is you.

IT IS LIKE A DOPPLER EFFECT. IT IS NOT A DOPPLER EFFECT.

You just don't read, do you? Reread the example I wrote using stealth uncovering "lanterns" that I wrote for simpletons like you.

Your ignorance is not as good as my knowledge.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:54 PM by Stimmed
So much for the Archer thread lol. Turns out 6 pages on archer information 10 pages on doppler effect
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:22 PM by Isavyr
Cadebrennus wrote: I understand what you meant but the check isn't instantaneous as in it lasts only for a milliseconds like a single light wave or a single sound wave. It also does not radiate outwards from a single source like sound or electromagnetic waves. The best analogy I have for how the stealth "ping" works in DAOC is that it is like dropping a lantern that lights up everything hidden for a fraction of a second (but not a millisecond or shorter). If you stand still and keep on dropping these "lanterns" you will see at an equal distance in every direction. However if you are moving forward, you will be dropping lanterns which you will very quickly be reaching the forward edge of the illumination, reducing your "illuminated" distance ahead of you but conversely increasing the "illuminated" distance behind you.

Try this experiment in real life. Get some cheap glow sticks, stand in a darkened room, and move forward while activating each glow stick and dropping it at your feet while moving forward. You will easily see that you have more illumination behind you than in front of you.

Why this is such a hard concept for you guys to understand I just don't know. Maybe you guys just aren't visual people. That's okay, but shitting on people who do get it is not okay.

I will leave this thread with a quote:
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.""

I'm glad you decided to finally to clarify your perspective on this. While it isn't the Doppler effect, I now understand what you are saying. I don't know whether you are correct that stealth illuminates an area for a period of time (allowing incoming targets to suddenly appear, even after the ping), but assuming so, you would be correct that there is a disadvantage to movement speed. I would be curious to see evidence of this phenomenon! This is why I PM'd you, hoping to do some type of collaborative testing to put more facts to on the table.

You were very hostile to this outreach, saying to never message you, and denigrated others in the thread, saying those that didn't agree with you were either apathetic, or ignorant. You then turn this around and say "shitting on others?" is not OK? I don't know what to say, if you can't see the hypocrisy here.

Hopefully you will see many of us are trying to earnestly have good discussion, learn the facts, and argue the merits of one another's points in order to have the best ideas put forth--not simply be right. I hope future discussion will be capable of achieving this ideal.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:23 PM by Isavyr
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:54 PM
So much for the Archer thread lol. Turns out 6 pages on archer information 10 pages on doppler effect

It was very important to someone--and I suppose we're all a little guilty of replying to it :-).
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:23 PM by keen
Well call it however you want. Sounds to me you heard the word Doppler effect ones and wanted to shine with it while it's just not a Doppler effect.
It's a fancy word though.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:29 PM by Isavyr
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:52 PM
IT IS LIKE A DOPPLER EFFECT. IT IS NOT A DOPPLER EFFECT.

You just don't read, do you? Reread the example I wrote using stealth uncovering "lanterns" that I wrote for simpletons like you.

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:39 AM
It's considered a "pulse" because stealth detection is not always on. Instead stealth detection is checked instantaneously at regular small intervals of time.

Because it's a detection "ping" at regular intervals, the Doppler effect does apply to stealth detection. Whether or not you choose to believe it is up to you.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:31 PM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:29 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:52 PM
IT IS LIKE A DOPPLER EFFECT. IT IS NOT A DOPPLER EFFECT.

You just don't read, do you? Reread the example I wrote using stealth uncovering "lanterns" that I wrote for simpletons like you.

Your ignorance is not as good as my knowledge.

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:39 AM
It's considered a "pulse" because stealth detection is not always on. Instead stealth detection is checked instantaneously at regular small intervals of time. It has always been like this since live launched. It's probably coded this way in order to reduce server side load. It's okay if you weren't aware of it before, but you are aware of it now.

Because it's a detection "ping" at regular intervals, the Doppler effect does apply to stealth detection. Whether or not you choose to believe it is up to you.

Way to be pedantic. I and others thought that comparing the effect to the Doppler effect would be a good way to illustrate the stealth detection method. Then we had to go into other analogies.

You're so busy with the word-lawyering bullshit that you're not even paying attention to what is actually being said.

You are a troll which is why I told you never to message me again.
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:41 PM by Isavyr
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 11:31 PM
Way to be pedantic. I and others thought that comparing the effect to the Doppler effect would be a good way to illustrate the stealth detection method. Then we had to go into other analogies.

You're so busy with the word-lawyering bullshit that you're not even paying attention to what is actually being said.

Let's be clear here--I didn't even want to discuss this phenomenon, which is why I wanted to take it into PMs. I said long ago in this thread that the Doppler effect was at best an analogy, and that it doesn't matter because whatever coded phenemenon exists can be coded differently--I wanted to debate the merit of higher stealth speed for archers.

Did you address that? No. Did Inoeth? No. And I'm not paying attention to what's being said?? You wanted to hammer in a point, over and over, that wasn't even relevant to the core principle I was discussing!
Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:18 AM by Ganil
I don't know where to put it but I spent a couple of respec stone to see by myself how it really works here.
I'll share the results with you.

35+14 | 5.0 spd | 3.7 draw sped | 100 con | 218 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 175 dmg
35+13 | 5.2 spd | 3.8 draw sped | 99 con | 218 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 180 dmg
35+13 | 5.5 spd | 4.1 draw sped | 99 qual | 213 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 188 dmg
35+13 | 5.5 spd | 4.1 draw sped | 99 qual | 239 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 203 dmg (pot buffs)
35+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 218 dmg (pot buffs)
40+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 228 dmg (pot buffs)
45+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 233 dmg (pot buffs)
50+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 237 dmg (pot buffs)
50+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.4 draw sped | 99 qual | 292 dex | 218 qui | MA 5 | 245 dmg (pot buffs)
50+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.0 draw sped | 99 qual | 328 dex | 248 qui | MA 5 | 262 dmg (charges)

- There is no point going over around 50 comp bow (so it's clearly confirmed for me). 1 more bow = 1 more damage on the dummies past that point. It looks like it's .3 or .4% damage per point past that point.
- Dex is really REALLY important for bow damages. Or in other way: 2dex = 1bow (past 50).

Edit: this is done on the dummies
Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:31 AM by Zansobar
Ganil wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:18 AM
I don't know where to put it but I spent a couple of respec stone to see by myself how it really works here.
I'll share the results with you.

35+14 | 5.0 spd | 3.7 draw sped | 100 con | 218 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 175 dmg
35+13 | 5.2 spd | 3.8 draw sped | 99 con | 218 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 180 dmg
35+13 | 5.5 spd | 4.1 draw sped | 99 qual | 213 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 188 dmg
35+13 | 5.5 spd | 4.1 draw sped | 99 qual | 239 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 203 dmg (pot buffs)
35+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 218 dmg (pot buffs)
40+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 228 dmg (pot buffs)
45+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 233 dmg (pot buffs)
50+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 237 dmg (pot buffs)
50+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.4 draw sped | 99 qual | 292 dex | 218 qui | MA 5 | 245 dmg (pot buffs)
50+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.0 draw sped | 99 qual | 328 dex | 248 qui | MA 5 | 262 dmg (charges)

- There is no point going over around 50 comp bow (so it's clearly confirmed for me). 1 more bow = 1 more damage on the dummies past that point. It looks like it's .3 or .4% damage per point past that point.
- Dex is really REALLY important for bow damages. Or in other way: 2dex = 1bow (past 50).

Edit: this is done on the dummies

Yep I did a lot of tests on the dummies, you only get about 0.3% increase in damage per spec point over composite 52. You get about 1% increase per spec point prior to that. That is the first problem with archery here...you should keep gaining benefit at around a 1% increase in damage all the way up to the max of 74 spec, which would give an extra 20% or so damage (starts to feel closer to about right at that level of damage, doesn't it?). The second problem here is that without being in a group with a primary buff class you can only get to 367 dex here, not over 400 dex like back in the day...this means a huge decrease in potential bow damage from the 1.65 days.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:08 AM by Sepplord
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:01 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:49 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:49 PM
If it checks at specific intervals and then you move away from the last position that the interval checked at then yes, it does function like a Doppler effect. Test it out with a buddy if you don't believe me.

I gave you a detailed example about the difference between checking a radius in specific Intervalls VS having a pulse moving outward from a position at specific intervalls.
Why do you ignore that and just double down on your position? Not what i expected from you Case.


I also adressed multiple times, where the misconception to compare it to the doppler effect probably comes from.

I understand what you meant but the check isn't instantaneous as in it lasts only for a milliseconds like a single light wave or a single sound wave. It also does not radiate outwards from a single source like sound or electromagnetic waves. The best analogy I have for how the stealth "ping" works in DAOC is that it is like dropping a lantern that lights up everything hidden for a fraction of a second (but not a millisecond or shorter). If you stand still and keep on dropping these "lanterns" you will see at an equal distance in every direction. However if you are moving forward, you will be dropping lanterns which you will very quickly be reaching the forward edge of the illumination, reducing your "illuminated" distance ahead of you but conversely increasing the "illuminated" distance behind you.

Try this experiment in real life. Get some cheap glow sticks, stand in a darkened room, and move forward while activating each glow stick and dropping it at your feet while moving forward. You will easily see that you have more illumination behind you than in front of you.

Why this is such a hard concept for you guys to understand I just don't know. Maybe you guys just aren't visual people. That's okay, but shitting on people who do get it is not okay.

I will leave this thread with a quote:
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.""

Sorry Cade, that selfrighteousness and the quote are an embarresment, imo. I never disputed that moving forward there is something similar to the doppler,effect. Only similar though, that's what i showed in my examples, that you choose to simply ignore.

You have one theory that only works in one scenario, and not even describes that scenario to 100%. In all other scenarios where the movement of a stealther is not directly towards another the doppler-effect-analogy fails hard.

Ignoring the examples i present, doubling down on your previous claim without even adressing what others post and then posting a quote about ignorance...pretty ironic
Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:11 AM by Sepplord
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:54 PM
So much for the Archer thread lol. Turns out 6 pages on archer information 10 pages on doppler effect

well at least the thread went somewhere...usually the stealther-threads go NOwhere
Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:44 AM by Niget
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:11 AM
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:54 PM
So much for the Archer thread lol. Turns out 6 pages on archer information 10 pages on doppler effect

well at least the thread went somewhere...usually the stealther-threads go NOwhere

Well it has gone nowhere!
I don't feel like it will.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:02 AM by Cadebrennus
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:08 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:01 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:49 PM
I gave you a detailed example about the difference between checking a radius in specific Intervalls VS having a pulse moving outward from a position at specific intervalls.
Why do you ignore that and just double down on your position? Not what i expected from you Case.


I also adressed multiple times, where the misconception to compare it to the doppler effect probably comes from.

I understand what you meant but the check isn't instantaneous as in it lasts only for a milliseconds like a single light wave or a single sound wave. It also does not radiate outwards from a single source like sound or electromagnetic waves. The best analogy I have for how the stealth "ping" works in DAOC is that it is like dropping a lantern that lights up everything hidden for a fraction of a second (but not a millisecond or shorter). If you stand still and keep on dropping these "lanterns" you will see at an equal distance in every direction. However if you are moving forward, you will be dropping lanterns which you will very quickly be reaching the forward edge of the illumination, reducing your "illuminated" distance ahead of you but conversely increasing the "illuminated" distance behind you.

Try this experiment in real life. Get some cheap glow sticks, stand in a darkened room, and move forward while activating each glow stick and dropping it at your feet while moving forward. You will easily see that you have more illumination behind you than in front of you.

Why this is such a hard concept for you guys to understand I just don't know. Maybe you guys just aren't visual people. That's okay, but shitting on people who do get it is not okay.

I will leave this thread with a quote:
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.""

Sorry Cade, that selfrighteousness and the quote are an embarresment, imo. I never disputed that moving forward there is something similar to the doppler,effect. Only similar though, that's what i showed in my examples, that you choose to simply ignore.

You have one theory that only works in one scenario, and not even describes that scenario to 100%. In all other scenarios where the movement of a stealther is not directly towards another the doppler-effect-analogy fails hard.

Ignoring the examples i present, doubling down on your previous claim without even adressing what others post and then posting a quote about ignorance...pretty ironic

Seriously, the only scenario we are talking about is forward movement, so why would I add further complexity to a simple argument that simple minds already can't comprehend? It is akin to a Doppler effect and it has been shown time and again on live servers to be accurate. Whether or not people choose to accept something that has been tested is up to them. If they don't agree then they should do their own tests and post their results. Nothing is stopping them. However they choose to just argue a counterpoint without any data backing up their claim. So that being said, who is truly ignorant? The irony is real, but it lies in your post.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:07 AM by Druth
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:31 AM
Ganil wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:18 AM
I don't know where to put it but I spent a couple of respec stone to see by myself how it really works here.
I'll share the results with you.

35+14 | 5.0 spd | 3.7 draw sped | 100 con | 218 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 175 dmg
35+13 | 5.2 spd | 3.8 draw sped | 99 con | 218 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 180 dmg
35+13 | 5.5 spd | 4.1 draw sped | 99 qual | 213 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 188 dmg
35+13 | 5.5 spd | 4.1 draw sped | 99 qual | 239 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 203 dmg (pot buffs)
35+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 218 dmg (pot buffs)
40+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 228 dmg (pot buffs)
45+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 233 dmg (pot buffs)
50+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 237 dmg (pot buffs)
50+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.4 draw sped | 99 qual | 292 dex | 218 qui | MA 5 | 245 dmg (pot buffs)
50+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.0 draw sped | 99 qual | 328 dex | 248 qui | MA 5 | 262 dmg (charges)

- There is no point going over around 50 comp bow (so it's clearly confirmed for me). 1 more bow = 1 more damage on the dummies past that point. It looks like it's .3 or .4% damage per point past that point.
- Dex is really REALLY important for bow damages. Or in other way: 2dex = 1bow (past 50).

Edit: this is done on the dummies

Yep I did a lot of tests on the dummies, you only get about 0.3% increase in damage per spec point over composite 52. You get about 1% increase per spec point prior to that. That is the first problem with archery here...you should keep gaining benefit at around a 1% increase in damage all the way up to the max of 74 spec, which would give an extra 20% or so damage (starts to feel closer to about right at that level of damage, doesn't it?). The second problem here is that without being in a group with a primary buff class you can only get to 367 dex here, not over 400 dex like back in the day...this means a huge decrease in potential bow damage from the 1.65 days.

You somehow assume the combined 50 damage is correct, and the above is incorrect.

And your primary targets also run lower buffs, giving them less hps.

And stop comparing this server to a specific patch note, it's a custom server, not a "patch x.xx" replica.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:17 AM by Durrty
Only "buff" that's required is to make crit arrow go through BT. Anything else and you're stroking your e-peen.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:19 AM by Sepplord
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:02 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:08 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:01 PM
I understand what you meant but the check isn't instantaneous as in it lasts only for a milliseconds like a single light wave or a single sound wave. It also does not radiate outwards from a single source like sound or electromagnetic waves. The best analogy I have for how the stealth "ping" works in DAOC is that it is like dropping a lantern that lights up everything hidden for a fraction of a second (but not a millisecond or shorter). If you stand still and keep on dropping these "lanterns" you will see at an equal distance in every direction. However if you are moving forward, you will be dropping lanterns which you will very quickly be reaching the forward edge of the illumination, reducing your "illuminated" distance ahead of you but conversely increasing the "illuminated" distance behind you.

Try this experiment in real life. Get some cheap glow sticks, stand in a darkened room, and move forward while activating each glow stick and dropping it at your feet while moving forward. You will easily see that you have more illumination behind you than in front of you.

Why this is such a hard concept for you guys to understand I just don't know. Maybe you guys just aren't visual people. That's okay, but shitting on people who do get it is not okay.

I will leave this thread with a quote:
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.""

Sorry Cade, that selfrighteousness and the quote are an embarresment, imo. I never disputed that moving forward there is something similar to the doppler,effect. Only similar though, that's what i showed in my examples, that you choose to simply ignore.

You have one theory that only works in one scenario, and not even describes that scenario to 100%. In all other scenarios where the movement of a stealther is not directly towards another the doppler-effect-analogy fails hard.

Ignoring the examples i present, doubling down on your previous claim without even adressing what others post and then posting a quote about ignorance...pretty ironic

Seriously, the only scenario we are talking about is forward movement, so why would I add further complexity to a simple argument that simple minds already can't comprehend? It is akin to a Doppler effect and it has been shown time and again on live servers to be accurate. Whether or not people choose to accept something that has been tested is up to them. If they don't agree then they should do their own tests and post their results. Nothing is stopping them. However they choose to just argue a counterpoint without any data backing up their claim. So that being said, who is truly ignorant? The irony is real, but it lies in your post.

Because your analogy doesn't even work for all forward movements....and when in actual RvR is a stealther moving directly towards another, and not slightly to the left or right?

The fun thing about science and theories is that you can never prove them, but you can DISprove them easily. You only need one test that disproves a theory and that refutes it. You can have 100test that prove the theory and it is only accepted as "not yet refuted". And you only have one scenario, that does look like the doppler-effect.

I am also not advocating for a change, you are. So why should i invest even more time than i am already to disprove your claims. You want change, you deliver the Data. The post about Doppler-effect in the uthgard forum actually agrees that doppler-effect is not an accurate analogy and only works in a specific scenario ^^
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:24 AM by Cadebrennus
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:19 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:02 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:08 AM
Sorry Cade, that selfrighteousness and the quote are an embarresment, imo. I never disputed that moving forward there is something similar to the doppler,effect. Only similar though, that's what i showed in my examples, that you choose to simply ignore.

You have one theory that only works in one scenario, and not even describes that scenario to 100%. In all other scenarios where the movement of a stealther is not directly towards another the doppler-effect-analogy fails hard.

Ignoring the examples i present, doubling down on your previous claim without even adressing what others post and then posting a quote about ignorance...pretty ironic

Seriously, the only scenario we are talking about is forward movement, so why would I add further complexity to a simple argument that simple minds already can't comprehend? It is akin to a Doppler effect and it has been shown time and again on live servers to be accurate. Whether or not people choose to accept something that has been tested is up to them. If they don't agree then they should do their own tests and post their results. Nothing is stopping them. However they choose to just argue a counterpoint without any data backing up their claim. So that being said, who is truly ignorant? The irony is real, but it lies in your post.

Because your analogy doesn't even work for all forward movements....and when in actual RvR is a stealther moving directly towards another, and not slightly to the left or right?

The fun thing about science and theories is that you can never prove them, but you can DISprove them easily. You only need one test that disproves a theory and that refutes it. You can have 100test that prove the theory and it is only accepted as "not yet refuted". And you only have one scenario, that does look like the doppler-effect.

I am also not advocating for a change, you are. So why should i invest even more time than i am already to disprove your claims. You want change, you deliver the Data. The post about Doppler-effect in the uthgard forum actually agrees that doppler-effect is not an accurate analogy and only works in a specific scenario ^^

You're 100% right that it's only a specific scenario. The scenario is called movement. You've issued the challenge to disprove it, so go ahead: disprove it.

As long as you're talking beliefs that you think hold more validity than tested facts, here's another belief for you that no sane person takes seriously.



I'm sure you will fervently defend this belief too. Or will you counter it with scientific fact?
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:36 AM by Sepplord
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:24 AM
You're 100% right that it's only a specific scenario. The scenario is called movement. You've issued the challenge to disprove it, so go ahead: disprove it.

As long as you're talking beliefs that you think hold more validity than tested facts, here's another belief for you that no sane person takes seriously.

I'm sure you will fervently defend this belief too. Or will you counter it with scientific fact?

Nice job at ignoring half of my comments content again, the thing that has changed though is that i am expecting it now and my confusion has switched to amusement. Let's see what kind of quote or picture you will show us next.


And you wonder why devs don't join these threads
Tue 12 Feb 2019 10:01 AM by Durgrim
Back to OT - and I don't give a damn about the Doppler-effect.
Lets talk about Archetypes.
The archer is the only ranged 'melee' class available, right? Good.
He can stay ranged and shoot with melee dmg add buff applied when grouped. Good.
He is not forced to take care of movement or positioning and thus dealing significally lesser dmg than other melee classes or even other sneakers. Good. D'accord.
I found his dmg vs. PvE mobs pretty good and given the fact that he wears higher armor class than casters, he should do also lesser damage than caster.

So where lies the advantage of the class beside sentimental reasons?
If you want to deal ranged damage, pick a caster. If you want to deal melee dmg, pick a melee DD class.
If you wanna sneak around and not be seen by anybody, pick the stealthier melee classes.

where lies the tactical advantage of the archer class at this current patch status?
Tue 12 Feb 2019 10:19 AM by Druth
Durgrim wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 10:01 AM
So where lies the advantage of the class beside sentimental reasons?
If you want to deal ranged damage, pick a caster. If you want to deal melee dmg, pick a melee DD class.
If you wanna sneak around and not be seen by anybody, pick the stealthier melee classes.

where lies the tactical advantage of the archer class at this current patch status?

That if you want range and stealth, there is only one class.

But hunters should be assassins bane, because then they'd at least have a direct counter.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 12:23 PM by Padatoo
Durgrim wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 10:01 AM
where lies the tactical advantage of the archer class at this current patch status?

Having both ranged and stealth.The surprise factor is too big not to consider.
I've been playing a kobold hunter in original DAoC (good times) and had both scout and hunter during the Phoenix Beta,archer is my primary DAoC class(although I still rolled a SB for obvious reasons),so dont take me as an archer-hater,but, archer dmg is where it should be.
Yes ,it is LOW and unstyled,but buffing it RAW would launch another cycle of "OMG NERF SCOUT HE KILLED ME BEFORE I COULD GET TO HIM" whine.
Stealth detection vs assasin is also where it should be (although,I could argue that archers need some vanish or camo tool).
What really bugs me as an archer is the interruption mechanic - while being at 1500 range from a caster and visible, I am neutralised by Quickcast/NS/other.
Also I'd like to mention that PBT piercing tools are lacking:
1.Longshot pierces any pbt, but has 5min cd,and you probably want it to finish off a running away target.
2.Volley is complicated to use
3.Penetration shot was mentioned already.

To sum it all up ,I want to claim 2 points:
1. Archers desperatedly need their interruption countering tool to be back on feet against their preffered targets (cloth) ,for example Mythic had added such a tool in 1.69 - it was called Sureshot.
Archer Changes
- We have given archers a new ability called Sureshot that is available at 45 bow specialization for Hunters, Rangers, and Scouts. When Sureshot is toggled on, the archer will brace herself against attacks from range, giving her a 100% chance of not being interrupted by any ranged attack, including arrows and spells. Because the bow is being fired from a less natural position, the damage from each arrow is halved. Sureshot cannot be used with Rapid Fire, Critical Shot, Longshot, or Volley. Penetrating Arrow benefits will count towards arrowed fire using Sureshot.
2. Penetration Arrow has to penetrate self-casted PBT to make speccing bow above 35 a rational decision.

tldr: Archers lack archery tools,and existing archery tools are lame.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 12:28 PM by Durgrim
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 12:23 PM
Durgrim wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 10:01 AM
where lies the tactical advantage of the archer class at this current patch status?

Having both ranged and stealth.The surprise factor is too big not to consider.
I've been playing a kobold hunter in original DAoC (good times) and had both scout and hunter during the Phoenix Beta,archer is my primary DAoC class(although I still rolled a SB for obvious reasons),so dont take me as an archer-hater,but, archer dmg is where it should be.
Yes ,it is LOW and unstyled,but buffing it RAW would launch another cycle of "OMG NERF SCOUT HE KILLED ME BEFORE I COULD GET TO HIM" whine.
Stealth detection vs assasin is also where it should be (although,I could argue that archers need some vanish or camo tool).
What really bugs me as an archer is the interruption mechanic - while being at 1500 range from a caster and visible I am neutralised by Quickcast/NS/other.
Also I'd like to mention that PBT piercing tools are lacking:
1.Longshot pierces any pbt, but has 5min cd,and you probably want it to finish off a running away target.
2.Volley is complicated to use
3.Penetration shot was mentioned already.

To sum it all up ,I want to claim 2 points:
1. Archers desperatedly need their interruption countering tool to be back on feet against their preffered targets (cloth) ,for example Mythic had added such a tool in 1.69 - it was called Sureshot.
Archer Changes
- We have given archers a new ability called Sureshot that is available at 45 bow specialization for Hunters, Rangers, and Scouts. When Sureshot is toggled on, the archer will brace herself against attacks from range, giving her a 100% chance of not being interrupted by any ranged attack, including arrows and spells. Because the bow is being fired from a less natural position, the damage from each arrow is halved. Sureshot cannot be used with Rapid Fire, Critical Shot, Longshot, or Volley. Penetrating Arrow benefits will count towards arrowed fire using Sureshot.
2. Penetration Arrow has to penetrate self-casted PBT to make speccing bow above 35 a rational decision.

tldr: Archers lack archery tools,and existing archery tools are lame.



Perfect.
Thank you for giving another piece of information. Couldn't agree more
Tue 12 Feb 2019 12:53 PM by inoeth
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 12:23 PM
Durgrim wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 10:01 AM
where lies the tactical advantage of the archer class at this current patch status?

Having both ranged and stealth.The surprise factor is too big not to consider.
I've been playing a kobold hunter in original DAoC (good times) and had both scout and hunter during the Phoenix Beta,archer is my primary DAoC class(although I still rolled a SB for obvious reasons),so dont take me as an archer-hater,but, archer dmg is where it should be.
Yes ,it is LOW and unstyled,but buffing it RAW would launch another cycle of "OMG NERF SCOUT HE KILLED ME BEFORE I COULD GET TO HIM" whine.
Stealth detection vs assasin is also where it should be (although,I could argue that archers need some vanish or camo tool).
What really bugs me as an archer is the interruption mechanic - while being at 1500 range from a caster and visible, I am neutralised by Quickcast/NS/other.
Also I'd like to mention that PBT piercing tools are lacking:
1.Longshot pierces any pbt, but has 5min cd,and you probably want it to finish off a running away target.
2.Volley is complicated to use
3.Penetration shot was mentioned already.

To sum it all up ,I want to claim 2 points:
1. Archers desperatedly need their interruption countering tool to be back on feet against their preffered targets (cloth) ,for example Mythic had added such a tool in 1.69 - it was called Sureshot.
Archer Changes
- We have given archers a new ability called Sureshot that is available at 45 bow specialization for Hunters, Rangers, and Scouts. When Sureshot is toggled on, the archer will brace herself against attacks from range, giving her a 100% chance of not being interrupted by any ranged attack, including arrows and spells. Because the bow is being fired from a less natural position, the damage from each arrow is halved. Sureshot cannot be used with Rapid Fire, Critical Shot, Longshot, or Volley. Penetrating Arrow benefits will count towards arrowed fire using Sureshot.
2. Penetration Arrow has to penetrate self-casted PBT to make speccing bow above 35 a rational decision.

tldr: Archers lack archery tools,and existing archery tools are lame.

same patch:

- Increased the buff spells for both Hunters and Rangers to bring them more inline with those available from buffing classes. Hunter’s Frenzied Spirit and Heart of the Lynx lines have been adjusted upwards, as has Ranger’s Sharpened Senses line.

Hunter

- Hunters may now attempt to find hidden enemies who have just killed one of their Realmmates via a new ability called "Call of the Hounds". To activate this new ability, the body of your Realmmate must first be selected. Then, six hounds are "called" that will sniff their way to any nearby enemies (stealthed or not). The hounds move at a very slow speed, but should they somehow catch up to a stealther, they will not attack but will bark incessantly instead. If there are no nearby enemies when this ability is used, no hounds will be summoned.

Hunter - Beastcraft Spec Line
30 Call of the Hounds


.....


bring back camuflage and some sort of detection tool like true sight and avoid pain and archers will be fine again
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:15 PM by Cadebrennus
Give all Archers Remedy. Then they won't be free RPs to Assassins.
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:42 PM by kskovbo
Agree that the current insta interruption is making my scout very hard to use in RvR. Also penetrating shot at higher levels of bow 45+, should penetrate self cast BT
Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:47 AM by Cadebrennus
kskovbo wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:42 PM
Agree that the current insta interruption is making my scout very hard to use in RvR. Also penetrating shot at higher levels of bow 45+, should penetrate self cast BT

Have a DD charge ready to use on your gloves or boots. /Use the charge to interrupt whomever interrupted you and swap to Rapid Fire to gain the upper hand.

While I do advocate for Archers I think a lot of players in general (everyone, not just Archers) ask for too much without looking at the tools already available to them.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 2:57 PM by Padatoo
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:47 AM
kskovbo wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:42 PM
Agree that the current insta interruption is making my scout very hard to use in RvR. Also penetrating shot at higher levels of bow 45+, should penetrate self cast BT

Have a DD charge ready to use on your gloves or boots. /Use the charge to interrupt whomever interrupted you and swap to Rapid Fire to gain the upper hand.

While I do advocate for Archers I think a lot of players in general (everyone, not just Archers) ask for too much without looking at the tools already available to them.

Yeah,cannot deny that you able to do that,in theory.Everybody can,in fact.You are forgetting that interupts usually come from instant spells,and few casters have neither QS nor instants.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:54 PM by Cadebrennus
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 2:57 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:47 AM
kskovbo wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:42 PM
Agree that the current insta interruption is making my scout very hard to use in RvR. Also penetrating shot at higher levels of bow 45+, should penetrate self cast BT

Have a DD charge ready to use on your gloves or boots. /Use the charge to interrupt whomever interrupted you and swap to Rapid Fire to gain the upper hand.

While I do advocate for Archers I think a lot of players in general (everyone, not just Archers) ask for too much without looking at the tools already available to them.

Yeah,cannot deny that you able to do that,in theory.Everybody can,in fact.You are forgetting that interupts usually come from instant spells,and few casters have neither QS nor instants.

I did this for years on live so I've done it in more than theory. The other thing is to open on them either well outside of 1500 range or well within it. When they burn that QC either reset (if outside 1500) or charge in and melee (if well inside 1500). There's a reason Archers have tools other than the bow. Use them.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:05 PM by Niget
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 4:54 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 2:57 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:47 AM
Have a DD charge ready to use on your gloves or boots. /Use the charge to interrupt whomever interrupted you and swap to Rapid Fire to gain the upper hand.

While I do advocate for Archers I think a lot of players in general (everyone, not just Archers) ask for too much without looking at the tools already available to them.

Yeah,cannot deny that you able to do that,in theory.Everybody can,in fact.You are forgetting that interupts usually come from instant spells,and few casters have neither QS nor instants.

I did this for years on live so I've done it in more than theory. The other thing is to open on them either well outside of 1500 range or well within it. When they burn that QC either reset (if outside 1500) or charge in and melee (if well inside 1500). There's a reason Archers have tools other than the bow. Use them.
This isn't live. No ps or fz. Moc will wreck an archer.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:23 PM by krycek
Don't play an archer so don't really have much feedback. What I have noticed from scout's though is after they slam me, and if I don't purge, they seem to have trouble even getting 1 shot off before stun wears off. Maybe the interupt system is busted here or something? Maybe they need to take a few step's before trying to shoot? Whatever it is that has to be frustrating.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:25 PM by Ganil
If you have 250 qui you can stun, wait a couple sec, crit, normal
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:31 PM by Zansobar
krycek wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 10:23 PM
Don't play an archer so don't really have much feedback. What I have noticed from scout's though is after they slam me, and if I don't purge, they seem to have trouble even getting 1 shot off before stun wears off. Maybe the interupt system is busted here or something? Maybe they need to take a few step's before trying to shoot? Whatever it is that has to be frustrating.

If they are trying to crit shot you it will probably be taking them 4 secs on draw time not counting the move away time, I would think they could get two shots off and be readying a third by the time the 9 second stun wears off, however.
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:24 PM by Ganil
Nah, it's 1 crit, ready 2nd, git hit, shoot anyway.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:09 AM by Niget
Ganil wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:24 PM
Nah, it's 1 crit, ready 2nd, git hit, shoot anyway.

Sounds right. With a ranger 5 second evade stun I can only get the crit off. And only if I speed burst
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:44 PM by imamo
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:31 AM
Ganil wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:18 AM
I don't know where to put it but I spent a couple of respec stone to see by myself how it really works here.
I'll share the results with you.

35+14 | 5.0 spd | 3.7 draw sped | 100 con | 218 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 175 dmg
35+13 | 5.2 spd | 3.8 draw sped | 99 con | 218 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 180 dmg
35+13 | 5.5 spd | 4.1 draw sped | 99 qual | 213 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 188 dmg
35+13 | 5.5 spd | 4.1 draw sped | 99 qual | 239 dex | 174 qui | MA 1 | 203 dmg (pot buffs)
35+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 218 dmg (pot buffs)
40+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 228 dmg (pot buffs)
45+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 233 dmg (pot buffs)
50+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.6 draw sped | 99 qual | 278 dex | 218 qui | MA 1 | 237 dmg (pot buffs)
50+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.4 draw sped | 99 qual | 292 dex | 218 qui | MA 5 | 245 dmg (pot buffs)
50+13 | 5.5 spd | 3.0 draw sped | 99 qual | 328 dex | 248 qui | MA 5 | 262 dmg (charges)

- There is no point going over around 50 comp bow (so it's clearly confirmed for me). 1 more bow = 1 more damage on the dummies past that point. It looks like it's .3 or .4% damage per point past that point.
- Dex is really REALLY important for bow damages. Or in other way: 2dex = 1bow (past 50).

Edit: this is done on the dummies

Yep I did a lot of tests on the dummies, you only get about 0.3% increase in damage per spec point over composite 52. You get about 1% increase per spec point prior to that. That is the first problem with archery here...you should keep gaining benefit at around a 1% increase in damage all the way up to the max of 74 spec, which would give an extra 20% or so damage (starts to feel closer to about right at that level of damage, doesn't it?). The second problem here is that without being in a group with a primary buff class you can only get to 367 dex here, not over 400 dex like back in the day...this means a huge decrease in potential bow damage from the 1.65 days.

great info, thanks for effort.

back to topic, as a scout i m ok with stealth advantages of assassins over archers. its kinda nature of game. i play scout and i have comp stealth. i ve never been hit by pa in stealth or standing still. you can still see enemy approaches and counter accordingly. if you are visible and running with speed (even realm speed) pa is almost inevitable which is ok.

i found bow damage is also not bad BUT for only comp archery skill, beyond that its awful. uthred mentioned in other topic that archery works like 2h weapon. as we know increasing weapon skill effects its style damage, this is what you get in return by investing more point to weapon skill. more skill more style damage. regular melee swings increases as well but its really ignorable comparing to style damage increase.

think of a melee character, would you make your weapon skill to 50+11 to get your melee swings better? probably not. same applies here. this is the reason of bow damage. bow is not purely 2h melee weapon, it does not work same as melee weapons do. bow skill has not any style to get bonus from points invested on it. bow damage formula should be rewoked imho.

Btw volley is disaster. it says 1s draw but applies weapon regular shot speed (around 4s for me), also first salvo somehow doesn't work at all. its broken and it is one of 2 tools given us to toy around :/
Thu 14 Feb 2019 1:50 PM by Sepplord
imamo wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:44 PM
Btw volley is disaster. it says 1s draw but applies weapon regular shot speed (around 4s for me), also first salvo somehow doesn't work at all. its broken and it is one of 2 tools given us to toy around :/

Unless they broke it between beta and live it should work fine (although i think it should probably also hit stealthed characters)

When you activate volley, you have to wait a longer time, and then you can fire 5shots in rapid succession (1s), after that volley is over.
You aren't firing multiple salvos, you are firing a volley of 5arrows, one after another with 1s inbetween each fired shot.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:11 PM by Horus
I read in another thread that essentially the arrows are considered the "style" dmg of archers since they have a +dmg% regular melee weapons do not. Historically the best arrows should be +25% dmg. Not sure if that has been verified here compared to standard non styled melee weapon swings of the same speed and WS.

Maybe this could be the way to give a boost. Consider at true spec 40, 45, and 50 bow there is a level of "arrow mastery" (for lack of a better term) that adds to this + dmg% so things are more in line with other melee toons who spec high and get the benefit.

Or change the way arrows work. Make inherent + dmg based more on combined Archery spec than just a set 25%. Although this would hurt leveling archers who are using the best arrows at early levels, it would help the end game and give some return for putting skill points >50 in the archery line.

Or lastly...I don't know how much work it would be but IMO there should just be 3 types of arrows, 1 for each dmg type. Get rid of the range, dmg, accuracy, considerations and make them a flat price and have the dmg bonus% based on bow spec. The way Phoenix is setup there really is no need for a bunch of cheap garbage arrows. They really do not fit the leveling design and economics. Very early on every archer has enough gold or fletching to be using the top arrows.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:28 PM by inoeth
Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:11 PM
I read in another thread that essentially the arrows are considered the "style" dmg of archers since they have a +dmg% regular melee weapons do not. Historically the best arrows should be +25% dmg. Not sure if that has been verified here compared to standard non styled melee weapon swings of the same speed and WS.

Maybe this could be the way to give a boost. Consider at true spec 40, 45, and 50 bow there is a level of "arrow mastery" (for lack of a better term) that adds to this + dmg% so things are more in line with other melee toons who spec high and get the benefit.

Or change the way arrows work. Make inherent + dmg based more on combined Archery spec than just a set 25%. Although this would hurt leveling archers who are using the best arrows at early levels, it would help the end game and give some return for putting skill points >50 in the archery line.

Or lastly...I don't know how much work it would be but IMO there should just be 3 types of arrows, 1 for each dmg type. Get rid of the range, dmg, accuracy, considerations and make them a flat price and have the dmg bonus% based on bow spec. The way Phoenix is setup there really is no need for a bunch of cheap garbage arrows. They really do not fit the leveling design and economics. Very early on every archer has enough gold or fletching to be using the top arrows.

or just give back the abilities archers had since 2001 and that are cut away here for no reason lol
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:57 PM by Reko
Archers are suppose to kill casters and stealthers are suppose to stealth to the back lines and kill the archers. That was the original vision. That is not the case now because it's badsicly down to a stealth war because archers have been put in the assassin category and will never fit in a group setting by player choice.

The mentality of the stealth mob is that it's stealth wars. Archers should have no business hunting assassin's. That makes 0 sense.. but your all complaining that you can't kill stealthers. Well they shouldn't be hunting stealthers.. the development of live ingrained that into your head. As an archers you should be following the Zerg or keep defense killing casters in the back lines.. I do agree critical shot and shit being blocked by bt is a joke. The only real think I think archery needs back is PB shot.

Honestly just remove stealth from archers and add pbshot and make arrows go through bt.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 4:42 PM by inoeth
Reko wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:57 PM
Archers are suppose to kill casters and stealthers are suppose to stealth to the back lines and kill the archers. That was the original vision. That is not the case now because it's badsicly down to a stealth war because archers have been put in the assassin category and will never fit in a group setting by player choice.

The mentality of the stealth mob is that it's stealth wars. Archers should have no business hunting assassin's. That makes 0 sense.. but your all complaining that you can't kill stealthers. Well they shouldn't be hunting stealthers.. the development of live ingrained that into your head. As an archers you should be following the Zerg or keep defense killing casters in the back lines.. I do agree critical shot and shit being blocked by bt is a joke. The only real think I think archery needs back is PB shot.

Honestly just remove stealth from archers and add pbshot and make arrows go through bt.

you talk about "original version" in the first place then talk about giving "back" pb shot that was actually not in the "original version"
also you say archers were put in the assassin category? in which way? btw archers have never been a group viable spot except stealth groups.
in the game version where there was pb shot available archers also had mos and in fact it was very well their job to hunt down assassins.
"I do agree critical shot and shit being blocked by bt is a joke" well that was the case in original daoc.

your whole post is just laughable full of mistakes and misunderstanding
Thu 14 Feb 2019 6:55 PM by imamo
Reko wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:57 PM
The mentality of the stealth mob is that it's stealth wars. Archers should have no business hunting assassin's. That makes 0 sense.. but your all complaining that you can't kill stealthers. Well they shouldn't be hunting stealthers..

phoenix removed several ra's which are granted archers to get advantage or balance at stealth wars.
true sight makes stealthers visible to you with clip range, camo makes you undetectable by other assassins. this two archer ra shows what archers role at stealth war. at least it prooves that archers dont meant to be free rp for assassins.

at this stealth system you have no way, seriously no way to make your archer to detect assassin first or avoid them. but in orginal you could see them if you put more points on ra's (like mastery of stealth) and use your long cd ra ability (true sight/see hidden).

so what we have, assassins doesn't need to bother with their stealth as long as being composite. they could dump their rp's on more damage and defense and abilities (early purge 2, better ip, vanish, even det). they still have advantage over archers and archers are not thread for them.

archers can dump their ra's over something usefull like... what?
volley is broken and completely useless. its range is nerfed and doesnt shoot in 1 secs as it should.
stealth related ra's removed.
as mentioned bow damage is crap and boosting with mastery of archery, falcon eye doesn't boost your damage as much as you expect from that much rp spent.
long shot does nothing with stealth war and not a game changing ra like ip, purge, vanish. its damage is bad due to archery damage here.

i m making up numbers but it is like; archer spents 20 rp to boost damage %10 but assassins and other melees spent 10 rp.
there will be slight difference between dps and survivability between rr3 and rr9 archer. dont you think its not normal?

choice of arrow types to change damage type is not something you can consider as style damage. its absurd. split spec melees also have that advantage.
Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:37 PM by Niget
imamo wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 6:55 PM
Reko wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:57 PM
The mentality of the stealth mob is that it's stealth wars. Archers should have no business hunting assassin's. That makes 0 sense.. but your all complaining that you can't kill stealthers. Well they shouldn't be hunting stealthers..

phoenix removed several ra's which are granted archers to get advantage or balance at stealth wars.
true sight makes stealthers visible to you with clip range, camo makes you undetectable by other assassins. this two archer ra shows what archers role at stealth war. at least it prooves that archers dont meant to be free rp for assassins.

at this stealth system you have no way, seriously no way to make your archer to detect assassin first or avoid them. but in orginal you could see them if you put more points on ra's (like mastery of stealth) and use your long cd ra ability (true sight/see hidden).

so what we have, assassins doesn't need to bother with their stealth as long as being composite. they could dump their rp's on more damage and defense and abilities (early purge 2, better ip, vanish, even det). they still have advantage over archers and archers are not thread for them.

archers can dump their ra's over something usefull like... what?
volley is broken and completely useless. its range is nerfed and doesnt shoot in 1 secs as it should.
stealth related ra's removed.
as mentioned bow damage is crap and boosting with mastery of archery, falcon eye doesn't boost your damage as much as you expect from that much rp spent.
long shot does nothing with stealth war and not a game changing ra like ip, purge, vanish. its damage is bad due to archery damage here.

i m making up numbers but it is like; archer spents 20 rp to boost damage %10 but assassins and other melees spent 10 rp.
there will be slight difference between dps and survivability between rr3 and rr9 archer. dont you think its not normal?

choice of arrow types to change damage type is not something you can consider as style damage. its absurd. split spec melees also have that advantage.

Most are aware of the issue. But only archer players care.
Everyone else is just happy for free RPS it seems.
Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:31 AM by Pao
Just dinged 50. Full tempted. Go odins, critshot a healer for 350dmg with thrust arrows. Log out, start play another class. Thats the state of the archer right now.
Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:00 AM by Glimmer
Pao wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:31 AM
Just dinged 50. Full tempted. Go odins, critshot a healer for 350dmg with thrust arrows. Log out, start play another class. Thats the state of the archer right now.

Thats preaty low, even my scout with 32spec bow can critshot them for 560+
Could you please share more info like how many dex/spec/etc you got ?
Fri 15 Feb 2019 11:48 AM by Ganil
With 50 comp bow and around 300 dex, your critshot should be between 550 & 600 with the good arrows.
Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:06 PM by imamo
so solutions must be;
1- give psychical defense realm ability back to archers,
2- give bt penetration,
3- rework archery system and make it more rewarding with point you spent on archery skill,
4- fix volley,

i would ask put mos back but probably too late and need lotta work for devs.

instead i propose putting more skill in stealth makes you better in stealth EVEN 50+ effects, with diminishing like soft stat cap. much fair system. "i m playing 50+11 stealth and gimp as fuk but you cant pa me lol." why not?

it will also make ppl think of their builds and whips their desire to get into higher ra's. it will offer more random and surprising elements like being seen further by 50+11 stealther freak. more variance at builds like; builds rely on high stealth and openers instead of longer melee fights or stealthers specialized to detect stealthers and runs with group etc. sounds much more fun. current stealth system really dull and boring.
Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:04 PM by inoeth
imamo wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:06 PM
so solutions must be;
1- give psychical defense realm ability back to archers,
2- give bt penetration,
3- rework archery system and make it more rewarding with point you spent on archery skill,
4- fix volley,

i would ask put mos back but probably too late and need lotta work for devs.

instead i propose putting more skill in stealth makes you better in stealth EVEN 50+ effects, with diminishing like soft stat cap. much fair system. "i m playing 50+11 stealth and gimp as fuk but you cant pa me lol." why not?

it will also make ppl think of their builds and whips their desire to get into higher ra's. it will offer more random and surprising elements like being seen further by 50+11 stealther freak. more variance at builds like; builds rely on high stealth and openers instead of longer melee fights or stealthers specialized to detect stealthers and runs with group etc. sounds much more fun. current stealth system really dull and boring.

i dont get why ppl always want tweaks that have never been there... just make it like it was... it was good as it was
Fri 15 Feb 2019 6:06 PM by imamo
i already want that first place. bring mos, true sight camo back and make it how it was. since we are playing custom stealth system i threw my idea.
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:22 PM by Stoertebecker
Well, i`ve played last year on live with a ranger as my main, and the year before on Uth. Bow damage wasn`t that low in 2003/4, from my memory.

If you want ppl playing archers, without forcing them to group up like it happened on live, you have to change something.

- reactivate see hidden (maybe as a ra for 10 points, usable every 10 mins)
- reactivate camuflage (passive at 30 or 35 stealth)
- a critshot should penetrate bubble no matter what, without destroying the bubble
- add physical defense again for archers, but not higher than stage 5

Average damage seems ok, i wouldn`t raise it, and i wouldn`t waste any thought about adding the live server archery system.
Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:05 PM by Sepphiroth75
I would like to see a real reason to spec archery above 35. What you get from 35 to 50 in a joke.
Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:41 PM by Pirhana7
Had this as a Topic in Suggestions but going to put this here because a lot don't seem to check that area.

Help Archery By Combining the Buff Lines With Archery

Archers are kinda in a tough place, they are decent archers but not great archers like they should be. To be a decent archer they really have to sacrifice their melee. So I have an idea that I think is doable and would greatly help.

Later down the road when Archers had their Archery system changed they also had their buff lines removed and added to their Archery skill line. Now Archers didn't have to split their specs, they got their buffs and archery all in one line. This allowed them to go a lot higher in that line to be better archers as well as helping their survivability because they had more points to put in melee along with having better buffs. the problem was the majority of people did not like the new archery side being more spell based like magic.


My idea is to have the best of both worlds, keeping the old archery system we have but removing the buff lines and just adding them right into the same line as archery for each class. So instead of splitting points and going half way In two skill lines you could go deep in one skill line and have your same abilities while having a few extra points t put in other lines like melee. The current problem with the archer buff lines is that barrel buffs and charges kinda pull away any benefit you would get by going high in that skill line. While Hunters stop around 32 in Beast, some Rangers go as little as 10 in Pathfinding. At the same time most Archers wont go over 35 in Archery. Now if it was 1 line, these classes would be able to go a lot higher in that one line and be better archers while also having extra points to help their melee lines or stealth.


Rangers: would get all their current Pathfinding skills at the same level in Archery. I think this is all they need to be in a great spot.

Hunters: would get all their Beast skill in the same level in Archery, Hunters also need their pet str/con buff to be instant, as well as a pet that moves that sprint speed. Currently Hunters charm spell has no purpose since summoned pets are stronger, let charm work on level 50 mobs to have a purpose.

Scouts: To be fair to scouts they should get buff in their Archery line just like they did when the old system changed. Give scouts the same dex/qui buff, spec AF buff, and Speed escape boost shout, Since Rangers and Hunters have their extra buffs / pet give scouts something that would fit, maybe an absorb buff since Alb is defensive themed.

Last thing, When the new Archery system was implemented the dex/qui buffs from archers was changed from 50/50 to 75/75 to be in line with the other best spec buffs like other classes get in their buff lines like Thanes, and Champs. I would like to see this as well so it would take away any reasoning to avoid speccing because you could just use "better" 75/75 charges instead of 50/50 buffs.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 12:22 AM by waffel
So there is no point specing stealth above 35, bow above 35, pathfinding at all (a damage add isn’t worth sped points)

So... that leaves rangers spending a majority of their spec points into melee skills. That seems ass backwards and incredibly unfulfilling as a ranger player.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 12:52 AM by Tillbeast
This game is not the DAoC I once loved. Absolutley pointless playing an archer. Fully templated I crit shot albion and Hibernian cloth casters for 200 to 250 damage. All they do is qc mez and nuke me for 400-600 damage a hit. Too many obstacles put in the way of the hunter to do his job effectively. I should be crit shotting as good as a cloth casters high dps bolt and my normal shots should equal their nukes. Our archery damage needs a serious buff, something like a 250-400% increase. If it takes more than 3 shots to kill a clothe caster of similar rr (not leather, studded, chain or plate) then there is something wrong. I got just under 1300hp and all it takes is 3 to 4 hits from a caster to be killed. Game is forcing me to either group (why play a stealthier if you want to group?) or to play a visible class because when solo I am free rp to any assassin who happens to be in the area and even with a perfect template I lack necessary dps to kill my intended targets. Fair enough if I try kill a clothie who is twice my rr then it should be tough but rr2 clothies should be bread and butter to a hunter but no...my biggest crit tonight was 246 damage on an inconnu sorc and I barely broke 175 on normal shots.

Its like taking a wizard, runie and eldricht and making there primary nuke deal 200 damage. I played a hunter to rr5 on live without a buff bot and his damage vs buffed enemies was greater (not much) than this current garbage.

Archers always been the forgotten class and a joke. Would be nice if a version of the game at least gave us what we had not take it away, better still fix the darn class so it can do its job.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 2:03 AM by Stoertebecker
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 12:52 AM
(why play a stealthier if you want to group?)

Because DAoC is about grouping like any other mmorpg. This * i have to solo on a stealther * is only in your mind...
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:21 AM by Niget
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 12:52 AM
This game is not the DAoC I once loved. Absolutley pointless playing an archer. Fully templated I crit shot albion and Hibernian cloth casters for 200 to 250 damage. All they do is qc mez and nuke me for 400-600 damage a hit. Too many obstacles put in the way of the hunter to do his job effectively. I should be crit shotting as good as a cloth casters high dps bolt and my normal shots should equal their nukes. Our archery damage needs a serious buff, something like a 250-400% increase. If it takes more than 3 shots to kill a clothe caster of similar rr (not leather, studded, chain or plate) then there is something wrong. I got just under 1300hp and all it takes is 3 to 4 hits from a caster to be killed. Game is forcing me to either group (why play a stealthier if you want to group?) or to play a visible class because when solo I am free rp to any assassin who happens to be in the area and even with a perfect template I lack necessary dps to kill my intended targets. Fair enough if I try kill a clothie who is twice my rr then it should be tough but rr2 clothies should be bread and butter to a hunter but no...my biggest crit tonight was 246 damage on an inconnu sorc and I barely broke 175 on normal shots.

Its like taking a wizard, runie and eldricht and making there primary nuke deal 200 damage. I played a hunter to rr5 on live without a buff bot and his damage vs buffed enemies was greater (not much) than this current garbage.

Archers always been the forgotten class and a joke. Would be nice if a version of the game at least gave us what we had not take it away, better still fix the darn class so it can do its job.

The class isn't worth a damn here.
Only 50 on this server is my ranger. Put a ton of time into getting it temped and it's crafts leveled.
Just to walk out and only be able to kill distracted casters or greens, and die to assassins that can win just spaming garrote.
Got one to 50% and broke away, drew my bow, and he vanished. But I can't beat him down and all my ruts are down so.... 20+ deaths to assassins and 1 draw.
Guess I should have rolled a ns huh
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:23 AM by Niget
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 2:03 AM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 12:52 AM
(why play a stealthier if you want to group?)

Because DAoC is about grouping like any other mmorpg. This * i have to solo on a stealther * is only in your mind...

Well stealthers don't get into 8 man's. And having 8 stealthers killing solos is kinda pointless.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 8:03 AM by Stoertebecker
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:23 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 2:03 AM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 12:52 AM
(why play a stealthier if you want to group?)

Because DAoC is about grouping like any other mmorpg. This * i have to solo on a stealther * is only in your mind...

Well stealthers don't get into 8 man's. And having 8 stealthers killing solos is kinda pointless.

Well, with 4-8 organized stealthers you can cause havoc, you`re not limited ganking solos (but it happens). I know that from own experience on live.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 9:09 AM by Tillbeast
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 2:03 AM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 12:52 AM
(why play a stealthier if you want to group?)

Because DAoC is about grouping like any other mmorpg. This * i have to solo on a stealther * is only in your mind...

Not the case of having to solo but wanting and being able to solo. Archers as far as I remember always been able to solo with them. On Pheonix there dps is that much reduced, their key RA's either gone altogether or drastically changed and the same defences that were put into place when archers could solo have remained the same. Add in the new stealth detection rules soloing as an archer is not really an option. Yes I can group up and sometimes I do but ganking lone casters with half a dozen archers soon loses its novelty. Give me back my favourite class!!!
Sat 16 Feb 2019 9:53 AM by Snoogy
It took me awhile to concede to the fact that I feel so underwhelming on my ranger. I've tried several different specs at this point. I went 12 bow 50 pierce.. The heavy melee spec with purge 4 and IP2. Even when I get the jump, land an evade or side stun, I lose 85% of the 1v1s with stealthers. At 5L4 an rr3 infi will still flat out beat me.

At hybrid 35 bow decent high melee, I still did some good bow damage and did OK in melee, usually of purge and IP2 were up I'd win maybe 20% of fights with assasins I got the melee jump on. 2% if I was perfed. 0% if I am perfed and Purge is down.

I switched back to 45 bow and Aug dex 9 and have been forced to completely change my playstyle back to 100% archery, which is fine. Its how I solo'd to rr5. I pick my targets carefully, opportunistic attack and use range/terrain to my advantage and I can still get solo kills pretty easy. There IS some success out there for a pure bow ranger but it requires patience.. A LOT of patience now.

Biggest gripe. Here it comes.

There are simply TOO. MANY. SHADOWBLADES. AND. INFILTRATORS .. EVERYWHERE.

Now that we are a month in, there is simply an over saturation of assasins and the RvR tasks make the frontiers seem tiny. If its a Hadrian's wall task, I am regularly perfed by at least 5 different assassins before I can even reach the mile gate once. I take different routes. I run only stealthed. The fact that they can see me from a mile away prevents me from ever avoiding a perf. It is so incredibly frustrating how many different assassins congregate in the task zones and forced choke points who have such a huge advantage of being able to see me in stealth. Having had to concede any chance of beating them melee, I need to try and secure advantageous areas to snipe from.. When I do I can make some RPs.. Problem is I can so rarely get past a milegate or even 5 feet in front of the PK without getting jumped by sbs and infs.

I still manage to have a Lil fun on my Ranger.. But the inability to compete melee in the several different specs I've tried and simply being unable to avoid being perfed due to the stealth advantage paired with the sheer volume of assassins waiting at every turn to just destroy me has been making Phoenix no longer fun for my ranger. Even stealth detection at the very least would help. Doing away with task zones that increase the density of stealthers camping the same choke points.. And some discernible counter to assassins as an Archer like PD or True Sight would do so much to help a frustrated playerbase.

Last words; to all the shadow blades that roll 2-3 deep and albs who run with infid and minstrels.. You make me sick.

Ugh, yeah I'm one super frustrated ranger.

Cheers

-Propagandhi
Sat 16 Feb 2019 12:31 PM by Tillbeast
Snoogy wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 9:53 AM
It took me awhile to concede to the fact that I feel so underwhelming on my ranger. I've tried several different specs at this point. I went 12 bow 50 pierce.. The heavy melee spec with purge 4 and IP2. Even when I get the jump, land an evade or side stun, I lose 85% of the 1v1s with stealthers. At 5L4 an rr3 infi will still flat out beat me.

At hybrid 35 bow decent high melee, I still did some good bow damage and did OK in melee, usually of purge and IP2 were up I'd win maybe 20% of fights with assasins I got the melee jump on. 2% if I was perfed. 0% if I am perfed and Purge is down.

I switched back to 45 bow and Aug dex 9 and have been forced to completely change my playstyle back to 100% archery, which is fine. Its how I solo'd to rr5. I pick my targets carefully, opportunistic attack and use range/terrain to my advantage and I can still get solo kills pretty easy. There IS some success out there for a pure bow ranger but it requires patience.. A LOT of patience now.

Biggest gripe. Here it comes.

There are simply TOO. MANY. SHADOWBLADES. AND. INFILTRATORS .. EVERYWHERE.

Now that we are a month in, there is simply an over saturation of assasins and the RvR tasks make the frontiers seem tiny. If its a Hadrian's wall task, I am regularly perfed by at least 5 different assassins before I can even reach the mile gate once. I take different routes. I run only stealthed. The fact that they can see me from a mile away prevents me from ever avoiding a perf. It is so incredibly frustrating how many different assassins congregate in the task zones and forced choke points who have such a huge advantage of being able to see me in stealth. Having had to concede any chance of beating them melee, I need to try and secure advantageous areas to snipe from.. When I do I can make some RPs.. Problem is I can so rarely get past a milegate or even 5 feet in front of the PK without getting jumped by sbs and infs.

I still manage to have a Lil fun on my Ranger.. But the inability to compete melee in the several different specs I've tried and simply being unable to avoid being perfed due to the stealth advantage paired with the sheer volume of assassins waiting at every turn to just destroy me has been making Phoenix no longer fun for my ranger. Even stealth detection at the very least would help. Doing away with task zones that increase the density of stealthers camping the same choke points.. And some discernible counter to assassins as an Archer like PD or True Sight would do so much to help a frustrated playerbase.

Last words; to all the shadow blades that roll 2-3 deep and albs who run with infid and minstrels.. You make me sick.

Ugh, yeah I'm one super frustrated ranger.

Cheers

-Propagandhi

At least you have the option as a ranger to go high bow. Midgard bows suck which forces us to go melee and archer melee is pointless as its not as good as an assassins nor as good as a true mdps. So us mid archers are screwed we can go high bow and do stupidly low dps in comparison to other ranged dps or try go toe to toe with a mdps (either assassin or visible) and still come of worse unless we rr6 or more and hoping your opponent no more than rr2. Even soloing a rr2 caster as a rr2 hunter is extremely difficult due to bubble and quick cast and only having the realm points to choose either purge2 or IP2. If the rr2 caster has chosen MoC 1 or 2 its an auto loss. Albs/hibs mention our pet but 9 times out of 10 the caster has hit face, used qc for a mezz and then 2 or 3 shotted you before pet has ran into melee range.

Rangers and scouts can go high bow and although they face the same issues of being detected and having to face a huge amount of assasins (which hunters do anyhow) hunters have absolute aweful capability as a pure archer in comparrison and melee is not a great option until you have ip5, purge3, aug dex9 and aug str9 minimum. Rangers and scouts need buffing but hunters need more. Something as simple as increasing pets speed would make a huge difference and all 3 archer classes need a boost to there bow damage.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:06 PM by Ceen
90 % of the posters simple have to learn how to play.
Crit shot doesnt hit for 200 damage it hits for 400++.
If you dont use charges and dont invest a lot of time into learning how to buff and play correctly 1vs1 and stealth wars is not your game. Better roll a group char.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:16 PM by Zansobar
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 12:31 PM
Snoogy wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 9:53 AM
It took me awhile to concede to the fact that I feel so underwhelming on my ranger. I've tried several different specs at this point. I went 12 bow 50 pierce.. The heavy melee spec with purge 4 and IP2. Even when I get the jump, land an evade or side stun, I lose 85% of the 1v1s with stealthers. At 5L4 an rr3 infi will still flat out beat me.

At hybrid 35 bow decent high melee, I still did some good bow damage and did OK in melee, usually of purge and IP2 were up I'd win maybe 20% of fights with assasins I got the melee jump on. 2% if I was perfed. 0% if I am perfed and Purge is down.

I switched back to 45 bow and Aug dex 9 and have been forced to completely change my playstyle back to 100% archery, which is fine. Its how I solo'd to rr5. I pick my targets carefully, opportunistic attack and use range/terrain to my advantage and I can still get solo kills pretty easy. There IS some success out there for a pure bow ranger but it requires patience.. A LOT of patience now.

Biggest gripe. Here it comes.

There are simply TOO. MANY. SHADOWBLADES. AND. INFILTRATORS .. EVERYWHERE.

Now that we are a month in, there is simply an over saturation of assasins and the RvR tasks make the frontiers seem tiny. If its a Hadrian's wall task, I am regularly perfed by at least 5 different assassins before I can even reach the mile gate once. I take different routes. I run only stealthed. The fact that they can see me from a mile away prevents me from ever avoiding a perf. It is so incredibly frustrating how many different assassins congregate in the task zones and forced choke points who have such a huge advantage of being able to see me in stealth. Having had to concede any chance of beating them melee, I need to try and secure advantageous areas to snipe from.. When I do I can make some RPs.. Problem is I can so rarely get past a milegate or even 5 feet in front of the PK without getting jumped by sbs and infs.

I still manage to have a Lil fun on my Ranger.. But the inability to compete melee in the several different specs I've tried and simply being unable to avoid being perfed due to the stealth advantage paired with the sheer volume of assassins waiting at every turn to just destroy me has been making Phoenix no longer fun for my ranger. Even stealth detection at the very least would help. Doing away with task zones that increase the density of stealthers camping the same choke points.. And some discernible counter to assassins as an Archer like PD or True Sight would do so much to help a frustrated playerbase.

Last words; to all the shadow blades that roll 2-3 deep and albs who run with infid and minstrels.. You make me sick.

Ugh, yeah I'm one super frustrated ranger.

Cheers

-Propagandhi

At least you have the option as a ranger to go high bow. Midgard bows suck which forces us to go melee and archer melee is pointless as its not as good as an assassins nor as good as a true mdps. So us mid archers are screwed we can go high bow and do stupidly low dps in comparison to other ranged dps or try go toe to toe with a mdps (either assassin or visible) and still come of worse unless we rr6 or more and hoping your opponent no more than rr2. Even soloing a rr2 caster as a rr2 hunter is extremely difficult due to bubble and quick cast and only having the realm points to choose either purge2 or IP2. If the rr2 caster has chosen MoC 1 or 2 its an auto loss. Albs/hibs mention our pet but 9 times out of 10 the caster has hit face, used qc for a mezz and then 2 or 3 shotted you before pet has ran into melee range.

Rangers and scouts can go high bow and although they face the same issues of being detected and having to face a huge amount of assasins (which hunters do anyhow) hunters have absolute aweful capability as a pure archer in comparrison and melee is not a great option until you have ip5, purge3, aug dex9 and aug str9 minimum. Rangers and scouts need buffing but hunters need more. Something as simple as increasing pets speed would make a huge difference and all 3 archer classes need a boost to there bow damage.

Except going high bow really won't solve the problem. Your dps gains from bow spec drop off hugely as soon as you hit 52 composite spec (like it does with all melee weapons)...that is THE problem. Bow damage used to go up more as you specced higher than it does here, yes some archers back in the day still thought the gains weren't enough to counter the gains they could make with the multiple more spec levels they could get in melee due to the spec point cost differential, but it went up from my recollection at about a 1% clip, not a 0.3% clip like it does here.

The MOS issue is also a major problem as there is no way an archer can counter this assassin advantage, while back on live at 1.65 they regularly did spec higher in MOS than assassins, since assassins were more concerned with putting points into offensive damage dealing RAs. Couple that with the lack of Physical Defense RA and that solidifies archers as the bottom of the food chain in the stealth melee wars...which is all there is here due to the range wars being non-existent.

The third problem is a lack of dexterity since there are no buff bots. Assassins don't need full buffs to kill their targets since their melee advantages are huge over others and since all other assassins (their other targets when not feasting on visibles) are also at this same disadvantage. However, archers that are bow focused need the dex for the ranged damage because if their target isn't dead from range the archer most likely will be once they reach the archer.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:23 PM by Niget
Ceen wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:06 PM
90 % of the posters simple have to learn how to play.
Crit shot doesnt hit for 200 damage it hits for 400++.
If you dont use charges and dont invest a lot of time into learning how to buff and play correctly 1vs1 and stealth wars is not your game. Better roll a group char.

No it really hits for 200-400 most of the time.
With a 5.5 sec bow 300 dex. On casters if you pop bubble first then crit it is 500ish.
1v1 stealth wars has been my game for years.
My ranger is in no way capable of this.

You can't say no one can play an archer when almost everyone who actually plays one in 50 rvr says the same thing.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:35 PM by Ceen
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:23 PM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:06 PM
90 % of the posters simple have to learn how to play.
Crit shot doesnt hit for 200 damage it hits for 400++.
If you dont use charges and dont invest a lot of time into learning how to buff and play correctly 1vs1 and stealth wars is not your game. Better roll a group char.

No it really hits for 200-400 most of the time.
With a 5.5 sec bow 300 dex. On casters if you pop bubble first then crit it is 500ish.
1v1 stealth wars has been my game for years.
My ranger is in no way capable of this.

You can't say no one can play an archer when almost everyone who actually plays one in 50 rvr says the same thing.
Yeah and then they tell stories like 200 damage crit shot or how midgard cant use bows since they are 0.3 speed faster. No one can take this thread seriously its just a QQ festival.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:58 PM by Niget
Ceen wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:35 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:23 PM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:06 PM
90 % of the posters simple have to learn how to play.
Crit shot doesnt hit for 200 damage it hits for 400++.
If you dont use charges and dont invest a lot of time into learning how to buff and play correctly 1vs1 and stealth wars is not your game. Better roll a group char.

No it really hits for 200-400 most of the time.
With a 5.5 sec bow 300 dex. On casters if you pop bubble first then crit it is 500ish.
1v1 stealth wars has been my game for years.
My ranger is in no way capable of this.

You can't say no one can play an archer when almost everyone who actually plays one in 50 rvr says the same thing.
Yeah and then they tell stories like 200 damage crit shot or how midgard cant use bows since they are 0.3 speed faster. No one can take this thread seriously its just a QQ festival.

If you have no experience or valuable input quit trolling
Sat 16 Feb 2019 4:01 PM by Snoogy
Well Ceen..

1) because right now playing a Ranger is a QQ fest, and I've tried to remain positive about it but the stealth detection disparity and inability to counter being wholely disadvantaged in melee is quite frustrating

2) I bet you play one of the 3thousand stealth zerging PK camping f*ckboy shadowblades
Sat 16 Feb 2019 4:05 PM by Snoogy
I've managed to solo my way into the #2 overall RR Ranger as bow spec, with a large percentage of those being solo kills because yes, I do know how to play my class and as true archer as well. We are saying there is a blatant, obvious disadvantage to playing as a true archer and are collectively making an attempt yo draw attention to an issue we can no longer prevent ourselves from QQing about because it is warranted. I'm sick of getting perfed from a mile away, and having no discernable way of being able to survive an assassin having tried several different specs as well as RA specs.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:23 PM by keen
Ceen is right. If you call yourself fully buffed with a buff pot, 35bow spec and then complain that your dmg is sh.it sry that is just qq.
There are archers critshotting for 400++ on any target with spec AF up. So I would also blame you and not archery.
Go ask the archers that are on the top, and farm a heck of RPs every day. Archer is the easiest char to make RPs on this server and achery needs for sure not to be buffed.

If you get smashed by assasins an achery buff will do nothing to that since you dont fire a single shot on them.
You already have a big custom love here with critshot not beeing able to be avoided...
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:34 PM by Tillbeast
I am 35b, 45sp, 38st and 34bc. Fully template. Just caught a rr2or 3 (brehon?) ranger out of stealth at optimum range ( I say just over half so he is not going to run away easily) my pet was buffed and behind a tree at start of fight. using 490 fletching skill blunt arrows. Pretty sure blunt is good vs reinforced armour.

Crit shot ...275
Normal shot...123
he chose to engage in melee
My highest hit was 145, lowest was 65.
Swung 12 times, got evaded 7 times.

Dead very quick, even using IP2. My pet hit 3 times and lurikeen ended fight on 87% health. Hunter is borked, needs a complete revamp. I critted a low rr wizard for just under 400 and he qc a bolt that did almost 860. How is that fair.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:35 PM by Tillbeast
keen wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:23 PM
Ceen is right. If you call yourself fully buffed with a buff pot, 35bow spec and then complain that your dmg is sh.it sry that is just qq.
There are archers critshotting for 400++ on any target with spec AF up. So I would also blame you and not archery.
Go ask the archers that are on the top, and farm a heck of RPs every day. Archer is the easiest char to make RPs on this server and achery needs for sure not to be buffed.

If you get smashed by assasins an achery buff will do nothing to that since you dont fire a single shot on them.
You already have a big custom love here with critshot not beeing able to be avoided...

What do you mean not be able to be avoided? I have missed many times with my crit shot.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:40 PM by keen
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:34 PM
I am 35b, 45sp, 38st and 34bc. Fully template. Just caught a rr2or 3 (brehon?) ranger out of stealth at optimum range ( I say just over half so he is not going to run away easily) my pet was buffed and behind a tree at start of fight. using 490 fletching skill blunt arrows. Pretty sure blunt is good vs reinforced armour.

Crit shot ...275
Normal shot...123
he chose to engage in melee
My highest hit was 145, lowest was 65.
Swung 12 times, got evaded 7 times.

Dead very quick, even using IP2. My pet hit 3 times and lurikeen ended fight on 87% health. Hunter is borked, needs a complete revamp. I critted a low rr wizard for just under 400 and he qc a bolt that did almost 860. How is that fair.
See this is the standart QQ in this thread. You have no buffs up and fight ppl fully charged and they smash you. This has nothing to do with your spec...
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:43 PM by Tillbeast
keen wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:40 PM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:34 PM
I am 35b, 45sp, 38st and 34bc. Fully template. Just caught a rr2or 3 (brehon?) ranger out of stealth at optimum range ( I say just over half so he is not going to run away easily) my pet was buffed and behind a tree at start of fight. using 490 fletching skill blunt arrows. Pretty sure blunt is good vs reinforced armour.

Crit shot ...275
Normal shot...123
he chose to engage in melee
My highest hit was 145, lowest was 65.
Swung 12 times, got evaded 7 times.

Dead very quick, even using IP2. My pet hit 3 times and lurikeen ended fight on 87% health. Hunter is borked, needs a complete revamp. I critted a low rr wizard for just under 400 and he qc a bolt that did almost 860. How is that fair.
See this is the standart QQ in this thread. You have no buffs up and fight ppl fully charged and they smash you. This has nothing to do with your spec...

Where did it say I had no buffs? Almost 300 dex, 1400hp (plus IP2) 650 AF....not as if I was unbuffed
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:45 PM by keen
Cause it is obvious if you crit shot for 273dmg.
How come the highest char on this server is a hunter if they are as broken as you say? Ask him for advice, he will crit shot for more than that 100%, and apparently is able to put out a lot of dmg.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:46 PM by Tillbeast
keen wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:45 PM
Cause it is obvious if you crit shot for 273dmg.
How come the highest char on this server is a hunter if they are as broken as you say? Ask him for advice, he will crit shot for more than that 100%, and apparently is able to put out a lot of dmg.

Yes he does well but he gets lots of rp from his groupmates. I was also editing my post lol toy your reply. I was quite well buffed
Sat 16 Feb 2019 6:37 PM by keen
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:46 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:45 PM
Cause it is obvious if you crit shot for 273dmg.
How come the highest char on this server is a hunter if they are as broken as you say? Ask him for advice, he will crit shot for more than that 100%, and apparently is able to put out a lot of dmg.

Yes he does well but he gets lots of rp from his groupmates. I was also editing my post lol toy your reply. I was quite well buffed
And his group mates are even more archers...
Sat 16 Feb 2019 6:51 PM by Tillbeast
Which is the point I am trying to make. Trying to solo on an archer with current ruleset is impossible, too many missing RA's, a huge nerf to bow damage and key RA changed completely to be of little use to archers but a god send to assassins.

Nothing wrong with grouping but an archer has always been able to hold its own in solo pvp. Had rr7 hunter, rr6.1 ranger and rr5.4 scout on original servers and rr7.7 scout on an original classic server all 90% solo. Its just not feasible here as the defences other classes have vs archers are still in place along with the new ruleset. I have no issue with assassins and mdps kicking our butts in melee, its what they suppose to do but we have no option but to fight when confronted with an assassin who will always see you first. Add in the fact our dps is so nerfed we struggle to kill our favourite targets now. Back on alb Gareth my scout would 3 shot a cloth caster. On this server lucky if you get cloth caster down to 50% with 3 shots.

I appreciate with 35bow my damage is not going to be as good as say 50bow but are you aware of the minimal improvement there is in damage between 35 and 50bow? You take 35bow just for rapid fire, if there was no rapid fire my bow spec would be 27 for last crit shot as speccing high bow brings minimal returns.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 7:28 PM by keen
I have no idea what you are doing, but this is archer dmg on Phoenix ppl cry about:
https://clips.twitch.tv/InexpensiveSneakySalmonResidentSleeper

Critshot 665dmg vs a SB with spec af up
normal shot 332dmg vs a SB with spec af up

How high should dmg be until ppl are happy? Archer dmg is more than fine here. With respect to the fact that your 1st critshot will ALWAYS (obviously except miss) land and cant be prevented. archer dmg is almost too high.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 7:40 PM by Tillbeast
If every hit was like that then there would be no problem but they are not, nowhere near unles high rr with stack loads of falcons eye. Unless he added onto a fight how on earth is he getting a shot off unless assassin is afk? (can't get video to work). Also was it a scout? A scout can crit quite high compared to a hunter (my best vs a yellow is 445). 665 is very low for a crit shot from a scout, my classic scout got over 800 consistently.

Could you explain the statement our first crit shot always hits unless it misses. Don't get your point. Also are you aware that once you get hit by a crit shot you get a 15sec immunity to another crit shot?
Sat 16 Feb 2019 8:11 PM by Zansobar
keen wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 7:28 PM
I have no idea what you are doing, but this is archer dmg on Phoenix ppl cry about:
https://clips.twitch.tv/InexpensiveSneakySalmonResidentSleeper

Critshot 665dmg vs a SB with spec af up
normal shot 332dmg vs a SB with spec af up

How high should dmg be until ppl are happy? Archer dmg is more than fine here. With respect to the fact that your 1st critshot will ALWAYS (obviously except miss) land and cant be prevented. archer dmg is almost too high.

First of all, that is also very close to what the archer will hit for against a cloth wearer given how the damage formulas work here...and that damage is quite a bit lower than it should be...on the order of around 10% to 20%. The other thing to consider is all the defenses that an archer has to penetrate to actually land an arrow...evades, blocks, bubbles, misses...on top of that his attack speed is very slow, at least twice that of an assassin so his dps is quite low.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 10:00 PM by genchaos9
The solution to this problem is very simple.

Crit shot from stealth never misses anyone ever, doesn't get blocked or evaded or absorbed by bubbles.

This change would give archers something that people would really fear.

Group up visible players, because if want to run solo you risk a crit shot or a perf.

This is how it should be.

Fear the empty frontier.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 10:09 PM by imamo
problem stated and explained with player tests and numbers, you can find em on previous pages.
600+ critshot doesnt provee something. i hit 750 on unbuffed, not templated thane once, i hit 990 to yellows grays. i mostly hit ~400 to buffed, templated targets. i have 40 archery.

crit shot meant to hit hard by design. its not something you can spam its not something you can use anytime, anywhere. you have to think and plan what comes next because archery can be countered pretty easy with qcast or instas, even with dd charge items.

it has long cast and needs preperation before shoot to grant you advantage; you have to position yourself good (behind tree, higher ground) and wait for correct moment, you need to arrange range between you and target. its suppose to be not too close to melee engage early or insta rupt range or not too far to run and get out of range. you have predict/know your targets armor and switch arrow. after all those and long cast time (add here chance to get unstealthed by chance) 400 hit.... or bubble swallows it.

so you cant really compare critshot solely by its damage. casters can nuke around 300-400 at ease with under 2 sec cast time, anywhere anytime. bolts, pa can hit harder than critshot, even buffed warriors hit like critshot with backstyle.
Sat 16 Feb 2019 10:22 PM by Druth
You want
- crit shot to penetrate bubble.
- increase damage after comp 50 skill.

And keep

- almost no counter to stealth.
- pets to not chase after restealth.
- easy leveling despite being on classically ungroupable char.


I mean, you do realize not all casters are BD, enchanter or sorcs?


Stealther pop right now is around 15% (anyway last I checked) which matches the ratio of stealth to visi classes. Do you think this number will go up or down with archer buff?
Sat 16 Feb 2019 10:46 PM by Stoertebecker
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 10:22 PM
I mean, you do realize not all casters are BD, enchanter or sorcs?


Not all, one has turrets, some have pets, some have baseline stun, all have bubble and qc.... and a runemaster would do what? /face quickcast nearsight....archer done, or not?
Sat 16 Feb 2019 10:55 PM by Ramije
Archer dmg is too low.
Sun 17 Feb 2019 12:11 AM by Tillbeast
Although I want archers to be improved I appreciate how difficult this would be. Although annoying its better to be underpowered than overpowered and unbalancing the game. Personally I would make minor changes. You cannot have crit shot breaking bubble automatically, this will just lead to casters getting one or two shotted especially by the slower more powerful bows available to scouts although even a hunters 5.0 bow will cause serious damage. IWhat I would do is change penetrating arrow to.....next damage received by melee/arrow is only 50% effective (pen arrow 1) or 75% effective (pen arrow 2) rather than having a chance of only being that effective. I would also equalise the spotting distance between archers and assassins to 200 units. This gives opportunity for the player with quicker reactions or better awareness to get desired result, either escape or fight. I would increase detection ranges to 300 to spot minstrels for both archers and assassins and only allow minstrels a 125 detection radius for both archers and assassins. Minstrels should never been given stealth and chain in first place.

What we don't want is a horde of stealthed archers with a portable nuke 1 shotting everything . Getting a 75% hit in still gives the caster a good chance to hit face, qc a cc and either escape or nuke down the archer but he cannot afford to make a mistake. At moment he can just face and qc a cc whilst still on 100% health as bubble absorbs hit.

I appreciate its an awkward position. Archers are a fun class to play but too many obstacles in way on phoenix to play solo.
Sun 17 Feb 2019 12:48 AM by Sepphiroth75
archery damage and the archer classes are a joke. nothing more than an adder. i would say they might be the weakest class in the game by far
Sun 17 Feb 2019 1:11 AM by Dariussdars
Weird how I keep shot for 400-500 from both scouts and rangers.

How much damage do you archers think you should have? You already shoot harder than my BD nukes for, and he doesn't have the benefit from shooting from stealth for an alpha strike.
Sun 17 Feb 2019 2:38 AM by Waygone
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Feb 2019 1:11 AM
Weird how I keep shot for 400-500 from both scouts and rangers.

How much damage do you archers think you should have? You already shoot harder than my BD nukes for, and he doesn't have the benefit from shooting from stealth for an alpha strike.

I actually LOLd at this.. It most likely was a critshot for that much damage meaning your BT was probably not up. If not critshot then said archer was sucking up damage from your pets and/or being insta LT for almsost that much every 4 seconds. The only possible way you, as a BD could lose to an archer is 1, you were afk and sitting, 2 XPing/farming, or 3 engaged with other enemies and completely distracted. If #3, you should lose to ANY ranged class hands down..
Get real!
Sun 17 Feb 2019 6:16 AM by Dariussdars
Waygone wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Feb 2019 2:38 AM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Feb 2019 1:11 AM
Weird how I keep shot for 400-500 from both scouts and rangers.

How much damage do you archers think you should have? You already shoot harder than my BD nukes for, and he doesn't have the benefit from shooting from stealth for an alpha strike.

I actually LOLd at this.. It most likely was a critshot for that much damage meaning your BT was probably not up. If not critshot then said archer was sucking up damage from your pets and/or being insta LT for almsost that much every 4 seconds. The only possible way you, as a BD could lose to an archer is 1, you were afk and sitting, 2 XPing/farming, or 3 engaged with other enemies and completely distracted. If #3, you should lose to ANY ranged class hands down..
Get real!
Yep, that insta lifetap hits for 500 damage, and has the same range an archer up on a hill has. Archers obviously suck, that's why they are everywhere.
Sun 17 Feb 2019 6:33 AM by Druth
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 10:46 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 10:22 PM
I mean, you do realize not all casters are BD, enchanter or sorcs?


Not all, one has turrets, some have pets, some have baseline stun, all have bubble and qc.... and a runemaster would do what? /face quickcast nearsight....archer done, or not?

Archer restealth if purge is down.
Sun 17 Feb 2019 6:45 AM by Dariussdars
Druth wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Feb 2019 6:33 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 10:46 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 10:22 PM
I mean, you do realize not all casters are BD, enchanter or sorcs?


Not all, one has turrets, some have pets, some have baseline stun, all have bubble and qc.... and a runemaster would do what? /face quickcast nearsight....archer done, or not?

Archer restealth if purge is down.
Yeah, it's not like the archer gets stunned and can't run or restealth if he gets nearsighted.
Sun 17 Feb 2019 6:46 AM by Druth
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Feb 2019 6:45 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Feb 2019 6:33 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 10:46 PM
Not all, one has turrets, some have pets, some have baseline stun, all have bubble and qc.... and a runemaster would do what? /face quickcast nearsight....archer done, or not?

Archer restealth if purge is down.
Yeah, it's not like the archer gets stunned and can't run or restealth if he gets nearsighted.

By the rm?
Sun 17 Feb 2019 7:37 AM by Dariussdars
Druth wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Feb 2019 6:46 AM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Feb 2019 6:45 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Feb 2019 6:33 AM
Archer restealth if purge is down.
Yeah, it's not like the archer gets stunned and can't run or restealth if he gets nearsighted.

By the rm?
Was mocking the crying archers in this thread. They act like they die if an RM nearsights them.
Sun 17 Feb 2019 2:34 PM by yasow
24 Pages seem enough discussion, we are discussing the archers internally at the moment. Be patient please.
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