Grey ganking and deliberate xp loss

So there was some discussion on the mid side about deliberate xp loss in the Fz zones.

Clockwork did not have an answer and I am really curious about the rules on it so I thought I would ask the dev's here...

We all know grey ganking is fully allowed as it should be...but what about deliberate xp loss to grey's?

Meaning if a group of grey's is fighting a camp in the Fz and an alb/hib starts doing attacks like mez/stun/whatever that is not meant to harm a grey but is meant to get the mobs to kill them so they lose xp. Obviously the Fz are dangerous and you run the risk of being killed by other realms, but deliberately causing xp loss in this manner with no plans to kill the grey only get the mobs to kill them, is this a form of griefing? Or simply RvR irritation?

Most people in /advice seemed to lean to saying if they are in Fz then they take the chance of this happening, while a smaller group kept saying that RvR is fine if they are killing other players, not harassing in this manner.

Any dev care to say what is and is not allowed?

Mon 28 Jan 2019 8:09 AM by Numatic

Quik wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Jan 2019 7:43 AM
So there was some discussion on the mid side about deliberate xp loss in the Fz zones.

Clockwork did not have an answer and I am really curious about the rules on it so I thought I would ask the dev's here...

We all know grey ganking is fully allowed as it should be...but what about deliberate xp loss to grey's?

Meaning if a group of grey's is fighting a camp in the Fz and an alb/hib starts doing attacks like mez/stun/whatever that is not meant to harm a grey but is meant to get the mobs to kill them so they lose xp. Obviously the Fz are dangerous and you run the risk of being killed by other realms, but deliberately causing xp loss in this manner with no plans to kill the grey only get the mobs to kill them, is this a form of griefing? Or simply RvR irritation?

Most people in /advice seemed to lean to saying if they are in Fz then they take the chance of this happening, while a smaller group kept saying that RvR is fine if they are killing other players, not harassing in this manner.

Any dev care to say what is and is not allowed?

You cant "harass" an enemy player IMO. They are the enemy. If they cause an xp loss for you, that's a win for them, grey or not. You risk that in pvp zones when xping. If the devs considered that griefing, they would need a refresher course in what pvp means. The reason its griefing in your own realm is because you have no recourse to stop them.

Mon 28 Jan 2019 9:08 AM by Koljar

This discussion is propably as old als DAoC-like games are: You are in an RvR zone.

General consensus is mostly: Deal with getting ganked, disturbed, killed and whatnot. You are an enemy to (in this case) two other realms.

While there are always players thinking "red = dead" (or "not my realm = dead" or how ever you want) there are also players who start e.g. cc-ing/debuffing for your group despite being in an opposing realm. This also includes killing you in a way that makes you loose exp. You don't give any RP to speak of so go figure

Me (minstrel) and a shammy helped a group of grey hibs waaay back in the day by cc-ing for them. Must admit I also killed greys sometimes (mostly the "oops that was too easy" kind)

Seems you met the first kind of player tho...

Tue 29 Jan 2019 5:20 PM by Turtle006

I remember playing Mezz/Root/Stun with greys in the FZ way back when. (They had such low resists that it was possible to keep them perma CCed) But I generally won't kill or harass greys on purpose now. I have killed them as "collateral" damage in that they happened to be nearby while fighting or I didn't notice they were gray until after the PA, etc.

I have had my necro pet killed by an opposing realm and then been left to die. I cursed the player and moved on. Being the "enemy" in a game means that a lot of people will think it is ok to grief you. I personally think it is a jerk thing to do, but you are just gonna have to deal with it I am afraid.

Tue 29 Jan 2019 10:58 PM by Vlalkor

After being gray ganked several times by hibs, when I hit 50 and was looking to duo with a buddy, we ended up killing a lot of gray hibs as revenge, but now that its out of my system, I leave grays alone. I always leave solos alone, unless its an animist, they are KoS.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 9:02 AM by Numatic

Vlalkor wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jan 2019 10:58 PM
After being gray ganked several times by hibs, when I hit 50 and was looking to duo with a buddy, we ended up killing a lot of gray hibs as revenge, but now that its out of my system, I leave grays alone. I always leave solos alone, unless its an animist, they are KoS.

I'm a hib and I approve of the animist thing. I solo'd my NS to 50 and I cant tell you how many times an animist will run up and drop his shrooms right next to me and start chain pulling the entire camp. It's even worse with groups. I'm forced to move because there turrets tag my mob and I dont get the credit for it. It's a huge nuisance and I wish I had the power to delete their accounts for being such a @$#;#,^.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:54 AM by Sepplord

Numatic wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Jan 2019 9:02 AM
Vlalkor wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jan 2019 10:58 PM
After being gray ganked several times by hibs, when I hit 50 and was looking to duo with a buddy, we ended up killing a lot of gray hibs as revenge, but now that its out of my system, I leave grays alone. I always leave solos alone, unless its an animist, they are KoS.

I'm a hib and I approve of the animist thing. I solo'd my NS to 50 and I cant tell you how many times an animist will run up and drop his shrooms right next to me and start chain pulling the entire camp. It's even worse with groups. I'm forced to move because there turrets tag my mob and I dont get the credit for it. It's a huge nuisance and I wish I had the power to delete their accounts for being such a @$#;#,^.

That's really a problem with the FNF turrets, i am unsure how to handle it, but normally the rules don't allow you to attack a mob that another player has already pulled.
Shrooming up near other players levelling is best case a dick move, and worst case breaking the serverrules

Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:02 AM by Bethoc

Deliberate grey ganking is already bottom feeding behavior. Withholding damage to ensure that mobs deliver the killing blow? Honorless griefing. The intention is to waste as much time as possible for the players behind the monitor, not to defeat their characters. Enforcing against it would be impractical, so if there's a solution, it would likely involve a grace period after being hit by any enemy player's ability wherein no XP is lost upon death. I don't know how difficult that would be to code.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:46 AM by Druth

Of course it's griefing.

There is a reason why RvR deaths doesn't cause xp death.
When you give deliberate xp loss you are enforcing PvE death rules upon RvR related events.

Very hard, if not impossible, to police. So I don't expect them to ever enforce it.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 8:13 AM by Koljar

Some players just seem to take the red (or: "not my realm"

= dead so serious that they start at the weakest. Killing greys while they exp. It's a pvp game after all and while it certainly can't be classified as nice behavior it's part of the game after all...

Don't like being killed in the rvr zone (no matter if it happens while exping or exploring)? Either deal with it or go to the safe zones.

jm2c

Tue 5 Feb 2019 9:22 AM by Tree

I agree, that sort of behaviour is griefing. Simply for the fact that its clearly not allowed to do to your own realm mates.

Most times there wont be any stream/video running, so how should the staff tell what really happened? If you got video, send it in. Im sure staff will hand out short-time bans accordingly.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 9:40 AM by doflynn

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:46 AM
Of course it's griefing.

There is a reason why RvR deaths doesn't cause xp death.
When you give deliberate xp loss you are enforcing PvE death rules upon RvR related events.

Very hard, if not impossible, to police. So I don't expect them to ever enforce it.

So we should Ban people who suicide to mobs in RvR ?

Get a grip, its the risk you take for the bonus xp

Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:01 AM by Druth

doflynn wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 9:40 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:46 AM
Of course it's griefing.

There is a reason why RvR deaths doesn't cause xp death.
When you give deliberate xp loss you are enforcing PvE death rules upon RvR related events.

Very hard, if not impossible, to police. So I don't expect them to ever enforce it.

So we should Ban people who suicide to mobs in RvR ?

Get a grip, its the risk you take for the bonus xp

If you can't see the difference between someone willingly forcing xp death, and someone having it forced upon them, then I'm not gonna bother trying to explain it further.

People expect to get xp loss from mobs, and they expect to be ganked in frontier zones, but they do not expect people to give them xp loss.
They designed RvR deaths like that for a reason.
Some people found a loop-hole, because now that they can't get rps for greys, they have to get pleasure some other way.

Somehow I think that if people discovered death to fire damage destroyed cloth/leather, and melee damage death destroyed stud/chain/plate, people would be pretty upset. Although you could just say "Well, that's the risk you take for rps".

Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:31 AM by doflynn

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:01 AM
but they do not expect people to give them xp loss.

They should, they are pulling mobs in a frontier zone

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:01 AM
People expect to get xp loss from mobs, and they expect to be ganked in frontier zones, but they do not expect people to give them xp loss.
They designed RvR deaths like that for a reason.

Yes for people who are RvRing, but these people are PvEing in the frontier, they should be prepared to suffer a PvE death at any point, when has any one PvEing died willingly/ not had it forced on them?

Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:42 AM by Druth

doflynn wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:31 AM
They should, they are pulling mobs in a frontier zone

Yes for people who are RvRing, but these people are PvEing in the frontier, they should be prepared to suffer a PvE death at any point, when has any one PvEing died willingly/ not had it forced on them?

PvP is designed to be xp loss free.
People found a way to give xp'ers xp loss anyway, despite the intention to make PvP not have a xp loss.

That the player was doing PvE is irrelevant, now a high purple comes along, and in the case the xp'er is worth rps he kills him, if not some will try to give him xp loss.

It's unintended behavior, because the circumstance would normally not get him xp death.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:45 AM by De Kus

Drawing a line between "red = dead" which equals to "kill on sight" and actual griefing is not very easy. Causing XP death by mezzing the party without actually attacking them (sometimes when you mezz a leveling party and kill them, 1 or 2 might get an XP death which is rather a "colloteral damage" than the intention) is not an intended way to kill a realm enemy. Sames goes for all other nasty stuffs like sending a pet in, release it and cast confusion on it or putting up those shrooms. It might be fun once, especially when done especially creatively, but I am pretty sure it will eventually become griefing if it becomes a habit.

While RvR is warzone, we are still interacting with human beings behind the avatar. We should be trying to only kill the avatar, but not grief the human behind it.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:50 AM by Grosouris

I agree with Mr Doflynn.

War is rude. You can expect only 2 things in PvP Zone . Victory (vs mobs & ennemies) or Defeat (vs Mobs & ennemis) . And when defeat is mixed with mobs & ennemis... xp loss happens :-/

Pve zone are safer & beautifull , go and visit old Pve Zones :-)

Grosouris

Tue 5 Feb 2019 11:39 AM by doflynn

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:42 AM
PvP is designed to be xp loss free.
People found a way to give xp'ers xp loss anyway, despite the intention to make PvP not have a xp loss.

That the player was doing PvE is irrelevant, now a high purple comes along, and in the case the xp'er is worth rps he kills him, if not some will try to give him xp loss.

It's unintended behavior, because the circumstance would normally not get him xp death.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree Druth, I can see the point you are making but I just do not agree with it. In my mind the RvR death was designed not to prevent XP loss, but instead to prevent RvR players losing constitution on every death and having to pay for a healer. That being said I respect the decision the mods make.

The reason I push this so strongly is that I leveled from 40-50 almost entirely through RvR, I would hit the task then make my way down to the then packed PvE spots looking for fights and/or the task mobs. I had an absolute blast doing it.

Would you consider a lvl 42 wiping a FG of lvl 45's by waiting for them to pull and engaging their healer, a griefing and a banable offence? It would potentially be deliberate xp loss depending on the outcome. What if some of the people in the group were grey and died an XP death?

I think it is a terrible idea to add a rule that will make a player pause, even for a second before engaging in a fight. If I had to spend the first couple seconds of an engagement making sure all targets in the group conned to me the edge would be lost.

I COULD go back to my realm and exp normally, but looking for fights is more fun. It really doesn't bother me if that inadvertently makes reds sad, we are at war and war is hell.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 11:46 AM by Druth

doflynn wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 11:39 AM
I guess we will have to agree to disagree Druth, I can see the point you are making but I just do not agree with it. In my mind the RvR death was designed not to prevent XP loss, but instead to prevent RvR players losing constitution on every death and having to pay for a healer. That being said I respect the decision the mods make.

The reason I push this so strongly is that I leveled from 40-50 almost entirely through RvR, I would hit the task then make my way down to the then packed PvE spots looking for fights and/or the task mobs.

Would you consider a lvl 42 wiping a FG of lvl 45's by waiting for them to pull and engaging their healer, a griefing and a banable offence? It would potentially be deliberate xp loss depending on the outcome. What if some of the people in the group were grey and died an XP death?

I think it is a terrible idea to add a rule that will make a player pause, even for a second before engaging in a fight. If I had to spend the first couple seconds of an engagement making sure all targets in the group conned to me the edge would be lost.

I COULD go back to my realm and exp normally, but looking for fights is more fun. It really doesn't bother me if that inadvertently makes reds sad, we are at war and war is hell.

I to try to lvl as much as possible in RvR zones, simply because people in those groups have a lower tendancy to afk, and it kill the boredom that I pan all the time.

You are mixing up things, no one ever said that you should rule that your actions must never cause xp death.
I am talking about people who have the specific purpose to force xp death on greys, because they wont be getting any rps from the kill.
And I specifically said I think it would be "Very hard, if not impossible, to police. So I don't expect them to ever enforce it."
Because when is something done as a "mistake" or byproduct of the above example you made, and when is something done on purpose?
The player doing it knows, and I think doing it with the intent of giving xp death has nothing to do with "red is dead" and everything to do with griefing.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 11:51 AM by Druth

There was a time when you could attack a dead enemy, continue doing damage after death.
While this didn't kill the person more, it did make the persons con on items drop from the damage.

They removed this, because RvR is not supposed to have any negative consequence apart from having to release and wait for port.
Here we only have to relase and then wait for 3 min timer, and even that "consequence" had people all ramped up.

So people manage to make 15+ pages of anger over the consequence of having to wait 3 mins after dying in RvR, but forcing xp death on purpose on someone is okay, because they should know better than xp in RvR zones?

The hypocracy of the player base is thicker than an elephants hide.
People want consequences? Please go vote for bringing back 15 mins porters.

Or maybe do consequences only refer to stuff you want to have consequences?

Edit: 19 pages, 14+5 pages of people all fired up over a 3min consequence of dying in RvR, it's laughable.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 12:19 PM by doflynn

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 11:46 AM
"Very hard, if not impossible, to police. So I don't expect them to ever enforce it."

That I can agree.

However, in my example above I would intend for players to die xp deaths to make the fight easier. The outcome is the same.

There is only one difference between the example I gave (jumping a conning group mid pull) and a person forcing xp deaths on greys, and that is the greys have no recourse while the group could potentially defend themselves. Gray cons might not like having no recourse to defend themselves, which sucks, but hey there is a entire safe realm to XP in to avoid the problem if they don't like taking the risk.

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 11:51 AM
They removed this, because RvR is not supposed to have any negative consequence apart from having to release and wait for port.

The core of our disagreement is I don't consider what they are doing RvRing, they are PvEing, so they should be ready to accept a PvE death at any moment. If they were RvRing they would not be pulling mobs.

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 11:46 AM
Here we only have to relase and then wait for 3 min timer, and even that "consequence" had people all ramped up.
So people manage to make 15+ pages of anger over the consequence of having to wait 3 mins after dying in RvR,

Now this is an interesting point, I think the 3 minute timer would of gone down much better if people had to wait on the pads like before, the port back was rather frustrating.

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 11:46 AM
but forcing xp death on purpose on someone is okay, because they should know better than xp in RvR zones?

Its a dick move sure but it should be permissible

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 11:46 AM
The hypocracy of the player base is thicker than an elephants hide.
People want consequences? Please go vote for bringing back 15 mins porters.
Or maybe do consequences only refer to stuff you want to have consequences?

The 15 minute port is a faulty comparison, people can level elsewhere or be more vigilant when exping in the frontier zones, there was no alternative to the 15 min port when going to other realms.

Although I played Eve online for years so I love games with consequences for death

Tue 5 Feb 2019 12:31 PM by Druth

doflynn wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 12:19 PM
However, in my example above I would intend for players to die xp deaths to make the fight easier. The outcome is the same.

There is only one difference between the example I gave (jumping a conning group mid pull) and a person forcing xp deaths on greys, and that is the greys have no recourse while the group could potentially defend themselves. Gray cons might not like having no recourse to defend themselves, which sucks, but hey there is a entire safe realm to XP in to avoid the problem if they don't like taking the risk.

I am talking about greys, who are worth no rps. If you give people who are worth rps xp death, it's rarely intended, but simply because you picked either a bad time, or a time where you could handle some of the group.
Example attacking a fg while they fight Evern, with your duo. You might only get rps for 2 of them, while the rest dies to Evern. This is not being malicious, but a choice because you would never be able to handle the fg before they pulled Evern.

doflynn wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 12:19 PM
The core of our disagreement is I don't consider what they are doing RvRing, they are PvEing, so they should be ready to accept a PvE death at any moment. If they were RvRing they would not be pulling mobs.

Again, I think you are mixing things up. It's no longer PvE when you are being attacked by RvR enemies. Just like attacking Evern with your 8man group, because you ran into him by mistake, has nothing to do with RvR. And also just like I'd also say doing keep raids with no enemies has nothing to do with RvR, but turns to RvR the second enemies enter the raid.

doflynn wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 12:19 PM
The 15 minute port is a faulty comparison, people can level elsewhere or be more vigilant when exping in the frontier zones, there was no alternative to the 15 min port when going to other realms.

You can RvR in your own zone, there are always choices.
That the zone you want to RvR has a task is irrelevant, you have a choice, same as xp'ing, so it's a near perfect comparison, under the given circumstances of how the two things differ.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 12:51 PM by Druth

And again, we have to look at what the intent of the game design looks to be.

1) Killing greys gives zero rps. Which should indicate that while killing greys is allowed, they are not regarded as part of the RvR battle.

2) Dying in RvR does not give xp death. Which indicates that you attacking someone should normally not result in them getting xp/con loss.

They could not design the game to not allow grief play like we discuss, because that would mean removing xp/con loss when enemy is near you, which in turn would make everyone try to die to mobs/fall rather than letting people get rps.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 1:55 PM by Tree

Easy code solution: There can be no XP loss if an enemy realm mate is within a 10.000 range. Problem solved.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 2:05 PM by Druth

Tree wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 1:55 PM
Easy code solution: There can be no XP loss if an enemy realm mate is within a 10.000 range. Problem solved.

Unless you are Hib. Otherwise looks like a solid solution.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 2:09 PM by Afuldan

Tree wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 1:55 PM
Easy code solution: There can be no XP loss if an enemy realm mate is within a 10.000 range. Problem solved.

Yeah totally give another reason to cross realm.
You PvE in a RVR zone, expect to get ganked. Btw, lv 35’s con green to 50’s, so don’t always assume you are grey to an enemy realm.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 2:27 PM by Tree

Afuldan wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 2:09 PM
Yeah totally give another reason to cross realm.

Lol totally expected some dork making that argument. Sure, I always build my XP groups with the goal to prevent XP loss, not XP gain, in mind and on top of that I risk an account ban for cross realming. Makes total sense.

I mean this whole thread is not about the real impact of that behaviour, but about how being on the receiving end of griefplay feels.
I couldnt care less if I have an XP death or just a regular death, because the real XP loss occurs by the downtime that ensues, the time you loose pulling new mobs or in lots of cases the time you loose after members ragequit and your group breaks apart.

The actual XP loss of XP death is insignificant.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 2:35 PM by Afuldan

Tree wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 2:27 PM
Afuldan wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 2:09 PM
Yeah totally give another reason to cross realm.

Lol totally expected some dork making that argument. Sure, I always build my XP groups with the goal to prevent XP loss, not XP gain, in mind and on top of that I risk an account ban for cross realming. Makes total sense.

I mean this whole thread is not about the real impact of that behaviour, but about how being on the receiving end of griefplay feels.
I couldnt care less if I have an XP death or just a regular death, because the real XP loss occurs by the downtime that ensues, the time you loose pulling new mobs or in lots of cases the time you loose after members ragequit and your group breaks apart.

The actual XP loss of XP death is insignificant.

If y’all ragequit, thats even better for the opposing realm TBH. Starve opposing realms of new 50’s. As much as people hate it, it’s there. If you hate getting ganked so much, STOP PVE’ING IN RVR AREAS.

How is that so hard to comprehend?

Edit: the exp bonus and tinders dropping in FZ areas is an offset bonus to combat getting ganked. So either A)stop pveing in RvR areas or B)move somewhere you dont get those bonuses, but yoy wont get ganked. Doesnt take a genius to figure this out.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 4:43 PM by Tree

You probably dont get the point. I am all for grey ganking. Red=Dead. Im also very much for taking responsibility and living with consequences.
Deliberately creating a situation that results in XP loss however is griefplay. Griefplay is forbidden by the server rules. So its just right to look for solutions.

In the end if a grey group gets rolled by a 50 (group) or has an induced XP death makes no difference. But it makes a difference in the perception of people and the credibility of the server rules.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 5:16 PM by Afuldan

Tree wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 4:43 PM
You probably dont get the point. I am all for grey ganking. Red=Dead. Im also very much for taking responsibility and living with consequences.
Deliberately creating a situation that results in XP loss however is griefplay. Griefplay is forbidden by the server rules. So its just right to look for solutions.

In the end if a grey group gets rolled by a 50 (group) or has an induced XP death makes no difference. But it makes a difference in the perception of people and the credibility of the server rules.

Ahh. Like mezzing a leveling groups support and leaving them to mob death? I thought this topic was about someone butthurt that the best FZ XP spots are known by enemy gankers who actually gank.

I have no prob on an ench bombing me during a pull. Part of xping in rvr zone. I do see where your frustration comes from now.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:18 PM by Quik

I was the one that asked the original question, and it has nothing to do with being grey ganked in general, that is accepted.

The question is, should it be considered grief play for a high toon to just mez/stun lowbies for the single intent of xp loss.

To me that should be considered grief play.

Kill them all you want, but the only reason you would ever deliberately cause them xp loss is if you are just being a dick, aka griefing.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 10:02 AM by doflynn

Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:18 PM
The question is, should it be considered grief play for a high toon to just mez/stun lowbies for the single intent of xp loss.

No

Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:18 PM
if you are just being a dick, aka griefing

People should be allowed to be dicks, especially when at war with a hated enemy realm

Wed 6 Feb 2019 10:28 AM by Sepplord

doflynn wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 10:02 AM
Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:18 PM
The question is, should it be considered grief play for a high toon to just mez/stun lowbies for the single intent of xp loss.

No

Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:18 PM
if you are just being a dick, aka griefing

People should be allowed to be dicks, especially when at war with a hated enemy realm

If you really want to bring the RP factor in, then wouldn't dealing the killing blow onto the hated enemy be a much more favorable option?
RP-wise there is also no such thing as XP-death or not, just death.

Most of the people fighting in early wars also weren't there because they hated the enemy, they weren't there to be a dick to the enemy. They were farmers that were forced to fight for their lords sometimes for small pitty feuds. They were merely trying to survive and when lost/away from their army they would avoid any engagement unless unavoidable/necessary for survival.

So please, don't justify being a dick ingame with such arguments as "times of war"...

There were also loads of people stealing from their realmmates, so why is there a rule against scamming your realmmates over loot in a raid?

That said: i don't think the issue is important and a few XP-death here and there are part of the risk of levelling in the frontier. As mentioned in this thread already, the XP-penalty isn't even a huge factor compared to the time lost pulling.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:09 PM by Laviski

people in this thread need grow a pair and quit QQ

If you go into frontier zone wear the big boy pants be it PvPvE, can't handle it then stick to the PvE zones and stay there. you probably doing the realm a favor.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:22 PM by Quik

Laviski wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:09 PM
people in this thread need grow a pair and quit QQ

If you go into frontier zone wear the big boy pants be it PvPvE, can't handle it then stick to the PvE zones and stay there. you probably doing the realm a favor.

And this is exactly the type of reply that does get people to quit.

Congratulations on your efforts to hurt the server.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:58 PM by slunky45

Quik, your signature makes you seem like a hypocrite, when you claim someones opinion is 'hurting the server.'

Just FYI!

Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:59 PM by Quik

slunky45 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:58 PM
Quik, your signature makes you seem like a hypocrite, when you claim someones opinion is 'hurting the server.'

Just FYI!

My sig is making me look like a hypocrite because I want people to just have fun instead of doing things in game to deliberately grief other players...plz explain that one.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:11 PM by slunky45

Also...what are these people that 'quit' after dying in RvR zone going to do when they hit 50?!

Oh that's right....just go hunting for 'Phoenix Milk'...err...wait no it's not called that....Task Realm Points! That's it!

Wow...I never thought of this...but somebody dying in a RvR zone might actually make somebody quit!...if they don't get the 1500rps to flow out of the sacred Phoenix Nipple.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:19 PM by slunky45

Quik wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:59 PM
slunky45 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:58 PM
Quik, your signature makes you seem like a hypocrite, when you claim someones opinion is 'hurting the server.'

Just FYI!

My sig is making me look like a hypocrite because I want people to just have fun instead of doing things in game to deliberately grief other players...plz explain that one.

Sure... Dark Age, even this modern zergfest version, predates the gaming philosophy of 'Everybody wins, and nothing is unfair.' Consider grey ganking a relic from when game designers didn't have publishers breathing down their necks to polish out any possible frustration.

I'm sure if you whine enough though, and convince the Phoenix staff that population will suffer b/c of grey ganking, they'll remove it. The 3 minute death penalty only took a few pages of QQ before it was removed.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:47 PM by Quik

slunky45 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:19 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:59 PM
slunky45 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:58 PM
Quik, your signature makes you seem like a hypocrite, when you claim someones opinion is 'hurting the server.'

Just FYI!

My sig is making me look like a hypocrite because I want people to just have fun instead of doing things in game to deliberately grief other players...plz explain that one.

Sure... Dark Age, even this modern zergfest version, predates the gaming philosophy of 'Everybody wins, and nothing is unfair.' Consider grey ganking a relic from when game designers didn't have publishers breathing down their necks to polish out any possible frustration.

I'm sure if you whine enough though, and convince the Phoenix staff that population will suffer b/c of grey ganking, they'll remove it. The 3 minute death penalty only took a few pages of QQ before it was removed.

Please make sure you get your facts straight and don't make things up...

I never complained about grey ganking. No mention of that. Please take a minute to reread the OP and take your time, I don't want you to hurt yourself...

Now after reading you should see I say grey ganking is common place and accepted and should be...I said deliberately griefing a grey group by mezzing/stuning/whatever and causing the group to deliberately lose XP instead of just killing, that is, IMHO, griefing.

Kill them all you want...but have the courtesy to just kill them and not try to deliberately ruin their game session because you have some grief against another realm.

So, once again, to sum up, grey gank all you want, but there is no reason to be a dick and cause deliberate xp loss.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:52 PM by Laviski

going to take the jar tonight and collect some delicious tears
all in the name of a Quik chuckle, worth. BBF

Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:13 PM by Quik

Laviski wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:52 PM
going to take the jar tonight and collect some delicious tears
all in the name of a Quik chuckle, worth. BBF

I don't care...it was people in the game that were having issues when I was playing on Mid. A discussion popped up in /advice and Clockwork said he wasn't aware how they would consider this.

I was just asking here to see what the GM's thought of this.

Kill me all you want when I lvl I could care less, or kill others for all I care, I was just wondering if this was considered griefing by the staff *shrug*

Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:28 PM by slunky45

Lol @ xp loss on this server.

Is it this important to you to find something wrong with one of the last aspects in RvR that Phoenix hasn't dumbed down?

Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:51 PM by Quik

slunky45 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:28 PM
Lol @ xp loss on this server.

Is it this important to you to find something wrong with one of the last aspects in RvR that Phoenix hasn't dumbed down?

???

You are really throwing your effort into the trolling...

It isn't that important, I am just curious as to how the staff feel about it.

Do YOU feel the need to grief people enough that you want to get another players approval?

To me I want the server to be enjoyable for everyone, including new players or powder puff players or whoever, and people that want to deliberately ruin another persons day by doing something stupid like this seems like a stupid thing to do when we are trying to get as many people to not only come here but also stay.

People will learn grey ganking is normal, but griefing of any kind should never be allowed.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 10:10 PM by slunky45

Two sentences is effort now-a-days?

As i said before, just get some forum QQ going and I'm sure the staff will end it.

I bet if you suggested that the only penalty from dying in this game involves xp or con loss, they would just change it for good measure. Wouldn't want to lose anybody because something bad happened to them in a video game!