Determination for certain classes is KILLING the server

Hi,

First off wanted to say great job on most of the server. Leveling was enjoyable yet not too grindy. Props on many aspects of this.

Now that I have been RvR'ing (as a minstrel), I believe that determination on classes that didn't originally have it is killing your server.
It makes me and many others want to either re-roll or stop playing altogether.

I think determination on utility classes like skalds, (skald was my main to rr8) makes them almost unstoppable.
Why would a utility class that has everything get determination? And why has determination been buffed?

This is really bothersome because I really want to enjoy the game. I understand changes are made, but this one makes no sense to me. I would like you to truly consider changing determination back to what it was meant to be.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:57 AM by Cadebrennus

As a player whose main class gets chainmail, climb walls, and stealth on top of having speed, charmable pet, and amazing CC I think that perhaps you might not be the best person to call out other classes that get an RA that boosts their class' capability.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:14 AM by Quik

parisyte wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:54 AM
Hi,

First off wanted to say great job on most of the server. Leveling was enjoyable yet not too grindy. Props on many aspects of this.

Now that I have been RvR'ing (as a minstrel), I believe that determination on classes that didn't originally have it is killing your server.
It makes me and many others want to either re-roll or stop playing altogether.

I think determination on utility classes like skalds, (skald was my main to rr8) makes them almost unstoppable.
Why would a utility class that has everything get determination? And why has determination been buffed?

This is really bothersome because I really want to enjoy the game. I understand changes are made, but this one makes no sense to me. I would like you to truly consider changing determination back to what it was meant to be.

You have one of the most OP classes in the game...if not THE most OP...and you're worried about a certain class getting Det?!?!?!

Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:17 AM by defiasbandit

He's right. Stop ignoring the reality. This isn't about minstrels, this is about determination being overtuned and how it effects tons of classes that use CC. Red Roots lasting 8 seconds. Stuns lasting 2 seconds etc.. Tons of classes with Det that shouldn't get it like Skalds. The determination % values are too high.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:25 AM by parisyte

This really is not about minstrels. What about enchanters? Now they stun a skald (or another det class that shouldn't have it) and instead of that class PURGING which would change the dynamics of the game, they wait their 2 second det timer, and run and kill them. Purge makes sense. Det does not. Apply that logic to roots from mid casters that need to be landed in order to win a fair fight. It completely negates many classes and is ruining the mechanics of the game that we all love.

Sorry, I am frustrated. I just spent 2.5 played days to level to realize this. It's not the DAoC we all love.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:27 AM by defiasbandit

parisyte wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:25 AM
This really is not about minstrels. What about enchanters? Now they stun a skald (or another det class that shouldn't have it) and instead of that class PURGING which would change the dynamics of the game, they wait their 2 second det timer, and run and kill them. Purge makes sense. Det does not. Apply that logic to roots from mid casters that need to be landed in order to win a fair fight. It completely negates many classes and is ruining the mechanics of the game that we all love.

Sorry, I am frustrated. I just spent 2.5 played days to level to realize this. It's not the DAoC we all love.

Don't forget 5 minute purge to go along with the Det.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 2:51 AM by teiloh

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:57 AM
As a player whose main class gets chainmail, climb walls, and stealth on top of having speed, charmable pet, and amazing CC I think that perhaps you might not be the best person to call out other classes that get an RA that boosts their class' capability.

Go ahead and try using all of those at the same time. We'll await video evidence. Your 15+ years of crying about Minstrels needs to stop.

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:57 AM
Limit Minstrels to leather armor and take away climb walls and bam! They're balanced. That's pretty much all that is needed.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Go ahead and give Minstrels leather, but 2.0 spec points, 1800 weaponskill, dual wield and Evade 7.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:15 AM by Cadebrennus

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 2:51 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:57 AM
As a player whose main class gets chainmail, climb walls, and stealth on top of having speed, charmable pet, and amazing CC I think that perhaps you might not be the best person to call out other classes that get an RA that boosts their class' capability.

Go ahead and try using all of those at the same time. We'll await video evidence. Your 15+ years of crying about Minstrels needs to stop.

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:57 AM
Limit Minstrels to leather armor and take away climb walls and bam! They're balanced. That's pretty much all that is needed.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Go ahead and give Minstrels leather, but 2.0 spec points, 1800 weaponskill, dual wield and Evade 7.

It makes sense. If Assassins need leather to stealth and climb walls then so should Minstrels. Why should they get the highest armor tier in game aside from two classes? Give me one good reason and I'll let it go. Just one. It has to be good, and not moronic like the argument against Det.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:00 AM by Sepplord

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:17 AM
He's right. Stop ignoring the reality. This isn't about minstrels, this is about determination being overtuned and how it effects tons of classes that use CC. Red Roots lasting 8 seconds. Stuns lasting 2 seconds etc.. Tons of classes with Det that shouldn't get it like Skalds. The determination % values are too high.

I am pretty sure that math doesn't check out.

Is the sky falling again Defias?

Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:09 AM by inoeth

go to uthgard if you dont like det lol

Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:20 AM by Kaziera

parisyte wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:54 AM
Hi,

First off wanted to say great job on most of the server. Leveling was enjoyable yet not too grindy. Props on many aspects of this.

Now that I have been RvR'ing (as a minstrel), I believe that determination on classes that didn't originally have it is killing your server.
It makes me and many others want to either re-roll or stop playing altogether.

I think determination on utility classes like skalds, (skald was my main to rr8) makes them almost unstoppable.
Why would a utility class that has everything get determination? And why has determination been buffed?

This is really bothersome because I really want to enjoy the game. I understand changes are made, but this one makes no sense to me. I would like you to truly consider changing determination back to what it was meant to be.

You dont like it = killing the server.

Solid logic.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:15 PM by slunky45

Between odd balance decisions with RAs, and the RvR setting in general (play the task, not the game), frankly I don't understand where Phoenix wants to head...

The old complaint of low RR groups not competing with high RR ones is very valid here...powerful RAs to keep buying well past RR9+ except some classes still have very basic flaws...I guess it doesn't really matter if the design concept was just get to 50 before boredom sets in, and experience the most mile gate zerg fights you can dream of before boredom sets in.

/confused

Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:32 PM by chryso

I guess the devs may as well shut it down.
It was fun.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:37 PM by slunky45

?! Shut it down!?
With so many prosperous months of zerging on the horizon...

Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:53 PM by stridberg

parisyte wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:25 AM
This really is not about minstrels. What about enchanters? Now they stun a skald (or another det class that shouldn't have it) and instead of that class PURGING which would change the dynamics of the game, they wait their 2 second det timer, and run and kill them.

have you considered the possibility of teamplay into your calculations of class balance

Wed 6 Feb 2019 2:26 PM by slunky45

stridberg wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:53 PM
have you considered the possibility of teamplay into your calculations of class balance

Has anybody here done any calculations on class balance? There were many other abilities and items in DAoC by the time a Skald for example could get determination.

It feels like there must have been a dartboard....

"Charge".....out!
"Dodger".....out!
"Determination"....bullseye!
"Physical Defense"....bullseye!....wait wait wait...almost a bullseye.
"Working LoS mechanics"....ouch...that one hit the wall....
"Paladins"....holy cow, the exact center of the bullseye!
"Endurance potions"...well it landed on "1" lets just cap it at blue I guess...
"RR5 abilities"...what?...out of darts...ok....out!

Wed 6 Feb 2019 2:38 PM by Sepplord

slunky45 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 2:26 PM
It feels like there must have been a dartboard....

"Charge".....out!
"Dodger".....out!
"Determination"....bullseye!
"Physical Defense"....bullseye!....wait wait wait...almost a bullseye.
"Working LoS mechanics"....ouch...that one hit the wall....
"Paladins"....holy cow, the exact center of the bullseye!
"Endurance potions"...well it landed on "1" lets just cap it at blue I guess...
"RR5 abilities"...what?...out of darts...ok....out!

if that's how you feel, why are you wasting your time here?

You are accusing the devs of incompetence and that they make their balance choices randomly. Seriously, if that was MY belief i would be sad that the server will always suck and then cut my losses

If you are just ranting then i think it's exceptionally rude and unfair to let your anger out on the people that worked very long hours to give you the opportunity to have a new daoc experience.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 2:45 PM by Afuldan

Remember when there wasn’t RA’s? Pepperidge farms remembers.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:01 PM by ljorka

the Det buff can be countered

1 a proper slam it will last the full duration of 9sec, dont forget to snare style right after the slam or you'll get caught by purges

2 SPAM snare peels, they have no immunity if target was never rooted. Alb has ice pets, all hibs have a chanter with snare pet, some classes can spec dd snares, and of course you have a lot of melee classes with back or side snares even anytimers on alb arms

3 if you are a mage or a heal class, try to position and kite properly, aka run far backwards on inc to come back in a safer spot ( without the det buff, that was still the same play that was required, because of point 4 )

4 dont forget that ther is still a stoicism meta, those det classes u think are op have 25% less cc reduction , it's actually less threatening compared to stoicism classes.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:16 PM by Koljar

Really don't get how, say, friars getting det is KILLING the server.

@TO: Don't like it? Don't play it! No one forces you to.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:18 PM by slunky45

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 2:38 PM
You are accusing the devs of incompetence and that they make their balance choices randomly. Seriously, if that was MY belief i would be sad that the server will always suck and then cut my losses

If you are just ranting then i think it's exceptionally rude and unfair to let your anger out on the people that worked very long hours to give you the opportunity to have a new daoc experience.

They rushed the RA "balance." In the final weeks of beta they switch everything to based on New RAs. Here's what a wise player named Icculus said:

"Terrible. You tested for months on a ruleset and are now changing it right before live while we have i50 and insta rr6. How will you actually test progression and balance? I actually think new RA is the superior system by far, but you are building for failure. As much as the *other* server gets criticized for being stubborn, at least we knew what to expect. This server has so much promise and yet now it feels like all my time in beta has been completely worthless. This is a huge shift in balance and imo the beta process should be restarted."

Icculus nailed it.

I think all that got tested in beta was to: make sure zerging works well? Check.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:37 PM by Dimir

While I think Determination on things like Paladins, Thanes and Reavers are a great idea because those classes have historically been shunned from groups, the Skald has NEVER been shunned from groups and should have NEVER been given determination here. I second the OP's call to remove determination from Skalds and I don't even play a class that is affected by this.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 4:46 PM by kmark101

@Op because you think standing 45 seconds in mez is not the exact reason that destroys all pvp activities? CC's should be minimal and every best possible tools should reduce CC in every possible way for every class. CC is the most retarded, game-killing concept of any MMO. People play the game to fight, have action, not to stand without the ability to do anything because 1 person pushed 1 button quick. Determination is a great bandaid to this problem and every single class should have it, the dynamic of the game is a lot better if everyone can do stuffs instead of standing and watching as they slowly die motionless.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:12 PM by Luluko

what skalds even have the points to specc into high det? you need purge/sos lw1 tireless1 then maybe a little moparry and ip for solo then you still need 22 points for 55% det so it would only really be useful if you play in grp since det is useless vs melee stuns and I would rather specc ip/moparry/MoP,AoM and Master of Arms before det if I solo. Skald vs minst mostly depends how good the minstrel is and not too reliable on the stun and uses the pet more, if you have like a healpet and self demezz the skald is pretty fucked in a 1vs1 scenario since you can just dismiss your pet to get rid of the skald mezz. If you play a minstrel without a pet skald will usually kill you if you dont have a high rr or skill advantage anyway but you just need to purge the stun no need for det. The only thing minstrels really could use is having 2 chants up all the time that you can run speed and keep pet without twisting all the time that your arm falls off.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:15 PM by teiloh

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:15 AM
It makes sense. If Assassins need leather to stealth and climb walls then so should Minstrels. Why should they get the highest armor tier in game aside from two classes? Give me one good reason and I'll let it go. Just one. It has to be good, and not moronic like the argument against Det.

Because Minstrels don't get the DPS associated with traditional rogue classes, nor do they have the defenses, or the spec points, or the range, or envenom, or enhance style lines.

Feel free to give Minstrels leather once they have Evade 7, Envenom, Dual Wield and 2.0 spec points.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:42 PM by Quik

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:15 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:15 AM
It makes sense. If Assassins need leather to stealth and climb walls then so should Minstrels. Why should they get the highest armor tier in game aside from two classes? Give me one good reason and I'll let it go. Just one. It has to be good, and not moronic like the argument against Det.

Because Minstrels don't get the DPS associated with traditional rogue classes, nor do they have the defenses, or the spec points, or the range, or envenom, or enhance style lines.

Feel free to give Minstrels leather once they have Evade 7, Envenom, Dual Wield and 2.0 spec points.

So the fact they can have the best pet in the game charmed if they have enough skill + mezzes is ok? Sorry but those 2 things add up to a whole lot more then envenom or range or styles...and I think envenom is terribly OP here

Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:54 PM by Halma

Afuldan wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 2:45 PM
Remember when there wasn’t RA’s? Pepperidge farms remembers.

Best time there was.
But I was Mid and we had instant CCs.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:31 PM by teiloh

Quik wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:42 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:15 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:15 AM
It makes sense. If Assassins need leather to stealth and climb walls then so should Minstrels. Why should they get the highest armor tier in game aside from two classes? Give me one good reason and I'll let it go. Just one. It has to be good, and not moronic like the argument against Det.

Because Minstrels don't get the DPS associated with traditional rogue classes, nor do they have the defenses, or the spec points, or the range, or envenom, or enhance style lines.

Feel free to give Minstrels leather once they have Evade 7, Envenom, Dual Wield and 2.0 spec points.
So the fact they can have the best pet in the game charmed if they have enough skill + mezzes is ok? Sorry but those 2 things add up to a whole lot more then envenom or range or styles...and I think envenom is terribly OP here

Uh, Mentalists have the same charm ... only their nuke does about 4-6x the DPS of a Minstrel at 10x the range.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:38 PM by Quik

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:31 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:42 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:15 PM
Because Minstrels don't get the DPS associated with traditional rogue classes, nor do they have the defenses, or the spec points, or the range, or envenom, or enhance style lines.

Feel free to give Minstrels leather once they have Evade 7, Envenom, Dual Wield and 2.0 spec points.
So the fact they can have the best pet in the game charmed if they have enough skill + mezzes is ok? Sorry but those 2 things add up to a whole lot more then envenom or range or styles...and I think envenom is terribly OP here

Uh, Mentalists have the same charm ... only their nuke does about 4-6x the DPS of a Minstrel at 10x the range.

Mentalists can't wear chain.

I am not arguing Light Menty's are nasty also, I am saying don't try to make it seem like Minstrels aren't over the top with everything they get.

Menty's can only wear cloth to make up for good ranged dps, Minstrels get what is basically the best armor that hibs/mids can wear + they can charm the best pets + climb walls + stealth + mez + speed + well you get what I am saying.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:11 PM by Bustermann25

I'm curious why minstrels dont get access to determination? It says hybrids now have access to it. As far as I can tell a minstrel is about as hybrid as they come. Dont quite understand why skalds get it and minstrels do not.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:28 PM by slunky45

Bustermann25 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:11 PM
I'm curious why minstrels dont get access to determination? It says hybrids now have access to it. As far as I can tell a minstrel is about as hybrid as they come. Dont quite understand why skalds get it and minstrels do not.

Either a bug that nobody reported...or nobody knows. It'd be funny if they just said Skald:yes Minstrel:no though...in fact that would support my throwing darts to 'balance the game' theory.

Who knows...this may have even come up if anybody tested anything in beta...

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:30 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:31 PM
Uh, Mentalists have the same charm ... only their nuke does about 4-6x the DPS of a Minstrel at 10x the range.

Just quick FYI. Mentalist don't have the same charm. Minstrel charm is instant and doesn't consume power every tic. Mentalist is casted and uses power every tic.. Just FYI..

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:43 PM by chryso

slunky45 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:28 PM
Either a bug that nobody reported...or nobody knows. It'd be funny if they just said Skald:yes Minstrel:no though...in fact that would support my throwing darts to 'balance the game' theory.

Who knows...this may have even come up if anybody tested anything in beta...

It seems to me as though it was given to fighter base classes. I think minstrel is a rogue base class.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:52 PM by teiloh

Quik wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:38 PM
Mentalists can't wear chain.

I am not arguing Light Menty's are nasty also, I am saying don't try to make it seem like Minstrels aren't over the top with everything they get.

Menty's can only wear cloth to make up for good ranged dps, Minstrels get what is basically the best armor that hibs/mids can wear + they can charm the best pets + climb walls + stealth + mez + speed + well you get what I am saying.

It's easy to make a class look overpowered by pulling huge laundry lists of every single thing it could potentially do out of our asses.

Huh duh well Ments have a nuke equal to a primary caster's, an ae nuke equal to a primary casters, a mez that lasts longer than anything the Minstrel has and casts nearly 3x faster, heals, demezz, DoTs, and a spammable stun!

And like I said, good luck doing all of those on the same time or even on the same Minst. Climb Walls + High Instruments means your damage is the worst in the game, bar none, except compared to Bards.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:53 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:30 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:31 PM
Uh, Mentalists have the same charm ... only their nuke does about 4-6x the DPS of a Minstrel at 10x the range.

Just quick FYI. Mentalist don't have the same charm. Minstrel charm is instant and doesn't consume power every tic. Mentalist is casted and uses power every tic.. Just FYI..

Uh, I know this. He said "best pet", Mentalists can get the same pet.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:10 PM by Quik

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:52 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:38 PM
Mentalists can't wear chain.

I am not arguing Light Menty's are nasty also, I am saying don't try to make it seem like Minstrels aren't over the top with everything they get.

Menty's can only wear cloth to make up for good ranged dps, Minstrels get what is basically the best armor that hibs/mids can wear + they can charm the best pets + climb walls + stealth + mez + speed + well you get what I am saying.

It's easy to make a class look overpowered by pulling huge laundry lists of every single thing it could potentially do out of our asses.

Huh duh well Ments have a nuke equal to a primary caster's, an ae nuke equal to a primary casters, a mez that lasts longer than anything the Minstrel has and casts nearly 3x faster, heals, demezz, DoTs, and a spammable stun!

And like I said, good luck doing all of those on the same time or even on the same Minst. Climb Walls + High Instruments means your damage is the worst in the game, bar none, except compared to Bards.

???

I'm not comparing the classes you are...I already SAID Light Menty's are OP...I am not arguing....YOU brought up Light Menty, Not me...

The difference is that the Light Menty is considered a caster class and wears cloth because of it. You can only compare the two classes if the Light Menty was able to wear leather/studded...I am ONLY referring to armor they are allowed to wear.

The minstrel should be considered a stealthier class since they have stealth and should be limited to studded like the archers.

My argument has nothing to do with who can do what...I was simply saying that Minstrels shouldn't be able to wear chain with the skill set they have.

Damn...

Wed 6 Feb 2019 10:15 PM by slunky45

chryso wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:43 PM
slunky45 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:28 PM
Either a bug that nobody reported...or nobody knows. It'd be funny if they just said Skald:yes Minstrel:no though...in fact that would support my throwing darts to 'balance the game' theory.

Who knows...this may have even come up if anybody tested anything in beta...

It seems to me as though it was given to fighter base classes. I think minstrel is a rogue base class.

See, that would make sense...but all archers and assassins, according to the phoenix char plan, get det.

I'm fairly certain a dartboard was involved.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 10:54 PM by teiloh

Quik wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:10 PM
I'm not comparing the classes you are...I already SAID Light Menty's are OP...I am not arguing....YOU brought up Light Menty, Not me...

The difference is that the Light Menty is considered a caster class and wears cloth because of it. You can only compare the two classes if the Light Menty was able to wear leather/studded...I am ONLY referring to armor they are allowed to wear.

The minstrel should be considered a stealthier class since they have stealth and should be limited to studded like the archers.

My argument has nothing to do with who can do what...I was simply saying that Minstrels shouldn't be able to wear chain with the skill set they have.

Damn...

Other stealthers have three to four times the DPS as Minstrels
Other stealthers have higher evade than Minstrels
Other stealthers have more spec points than Minstrels
Other stealthers have more damage specs than Minstrels

You have provided no convincing arguments for why Minstrels "shouldn't have chain" other than a meaningless laundry list of abilities and an appeal to "archetype" which I just tore down above.

Rogues usually have tons of DPS, defenses and spec points. Minstrel has none. Thus, the chain.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 11:16 PM by slunky45

Wow. Minstrels getting chain armor is a volatile issue. Maybe it came up when the staff decided on RAs, and because of OP'd chain armor, minstrel is the only rogue w/o det?

Lol, 'classic' server, and I just typed rogue with det.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:58 AM by parisyte

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 10:54 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:10 PM
I'm not comparing the classes you are...I already SAID Light Menty's are OP...I am not arguing....YOU brought up Light Menty, Not me...

The difference is that the Light Menty is considered a caster class and wears cloth because of it. You can only compare the two classes if the Light Menty was able to wear leather/studded...I am ONLY referring to armor they are allowed to wear.

The minstrel should be considered a stealthier class since they have stealth and should be limited to studded like the archers.

My argument has nothing to do with who can do what...I was simply saying that Minstrels shouldn't be able to wear chain with the skill set they have.

Damn...

Other stealthers have three to four times the DPS as Minstrels
Other stealthers have higher evade than Minstrels
Other stealthers have more spec points than Minstrels
Other stealthers have more damage specs than Minstrels

You have provided no convincing arguments for why Minstrels "shouldn't have chain" other than a meaningless laundry list of abilities and an appeal to "archetype" which I just tore down above.

Rogues usually have tons of DPS, defenses and spec points. Minstrel has none. Thus, the chain.

I'm still confused as to why we're talking about changing classes that were created originally by the game developers. Refer to my first post... this is about giving RA's to classes that shouldn't have them, thus changing the RvR mechanics drastically.

Yes minstrels can be OP, as can many other classes. That's not what i'm talking about here, forget minstrels. If i played a caster and i realized a skald could DD/interrupt me nonstop, and then my stun/root/mez lasted less than half the time, thus negating any sort of counter towards said skald, i'd be just as furious & disappointed.

This is not a post about what class is OP and what's not. Its about the new determination mechanics ruining RvR. PERIOD.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:02 AM by Sepplord

slunky45 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:18 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 2:38 PM
You are accusing the devs of incompetence and that they make their balance choices randomly. Seriously, if that was MY belief i would be sad that the server will always suck and then cut my losses

If you are just ranting then i think it's exceptionally rude and unfair to let your anger out on the people that worked very long hours to give you the opportunity to have a new daoc experience.

They rushed the RA "balance." In the final weeks of beta they switch everything to based on New RAs. Here's what a wise player named Icculus said:

"Terrible. You tested for months on a ruleset and are now changing it right before live while we have i50 and insta rr6. How will you actually test progression and balance? I actually think new RA is the superior system by far, but you are building for failure. As much as the *other* server gets criticized for being stubborn, at least we knew what to expect. This server has so much promise and yet now it feels like all my time in beta has been completely worthless. This is a huge shift in balance and imo the beta process should be restarted."

Icculus nailed it.

I think all that got tested in beta was to: make sure zerging works well? Check.

Do you really think that quote is even comparable to the post you made?
Constructive criticism and random rants are two different things.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:47 AM by Cadebrennus

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:31 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:42 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:15 PM
Because Minstrels don't get the DPS associated with traditional rogue classes, nor do they have the defenses, or the spec points, or the range, or envenom, or enhance style lines.

Feel free to give Minstrels leather once they have Evade 7, Envenom, Dual Wield and 2.0 spec points.
So the fact they can have the best pet in the game charmed if they have enough skill + mezzes is ok? Sorry but those 2 things add up to a whole lot more then envenom or range or styles...and I think envenom is terribly OP here

Uh, Mentalists have the same charm ... only their nuke does about 4-6x the DPS of a Minstrel at 10x the range.

Mentalists aren't wearing chainmail armor, can't spec a weapon or hold a shield, can't stealth, and can't climb walls.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:04 AM by Sei

VW, champion, skald, Thane, Paladin and reaver really are the first classes that Come into my mind when i think about what is OP / how to form an OP group.

Or not.

But i feel your frustration to not be able to inc in speed6 and stunlock Kill with pet any of them.

The fact is that it s not even an issue for any good minst.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 11:23 AM by Numatic

Personally I would give anything for a DAoC server with no AoE mezz or AoE stun. And minimal duration single target at that. I think the best CC for a game like DAoC was root. It immobilized you but doesnt leave you completely helpless. It should be a fight, not a game of dominos as you pick /assist target one after another. The greatest time I ever had playing DAoC was when CC was at its infancy and everyone actually stood their ground and fought.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 2:52 PM by teiloh

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:47 AM
Mentalists aren't wearing chainmail armor, can't spec a weapon or hold a shield, can't stealth, and can't climb walls.

Minstrels can't heal, AE nuke for 300+ DPS, spam stun, cast mez and demezz in 1.3 seconds, doesn't get base DD crit, etc,

Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:49 PM by chryso

How about you two just swap to the class on the other realm since it is so overpowered.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:56 PM by defiasbandit

Determination is overtuned on this server. Why is this hard to understand? It's not balanced, especially on many classes. This a game where damage interrupts ranged attacks. Red CC shouldn't last only 10 seconds. Nobody here is saying that there shouldn't be det, the issue is the numbers are too high.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:05 PM by teiloh

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
Determination is overtuned on this server. Why is this hard to understand? It's not balanced, especially on many classes. This a game where damage interrupts ranged attacks. Red CC shouldn't last only 10 seconds. Nobody here is saying that there shouldn't be det, the issue is thd numbers are too high.

Pretty reasonable - maybe it should be available to all melee classes, but perhaps it's slightly too strong. Main tanks could be comped through the base class.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:37 PM by Foofmonger

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
Determination is overtuned on this server. Why is this hard to understand? It's not balanced, especially on many classes. This a game where damage interrupts ranged attacks. Red CC shouldn't last only 10 seconds. Nobody here is saying that there shouldn't be det, the issue is the numbers are too high.

Det 9 is only a 55% reduction.

Det 9 is not giving red CC a 10 second duration unless for some reason, it only has a 22 second duration in the first place.

The hyperbole is real here.

Anyway, there are a bunch of different arguments floating around in this thread that don't really connect.

1. Is that det itself is just too strong and makes red CC "useless" as stated above. This is a pretty bad argument because it just isn't the case. Det 9, at a 55% reduction is perfectly reasonable and basically cuts CC time slightly over half, meaning a red 60 second CC will last 25 seconds for instance. This is intended, and fine.
2. I'm going to assume that the people who are trying to make the "det is too strong" argument are actually conflating det9 vs det9 + stoicism on tanks/light tank classes. This is where you get the "my CC only lasts 10 seconds" situation, because Stoicism gives an additional 25% CC duration reduction, for a total of 80%.
3. The initial argument being made in the thread is that some classes shoudn't have det at all (skald). Please note that not a single class that was given det (mostly hybrids) has access to stoicism. This means that the "det/stoicism" is too strong and that the "some of these classes shouldn't have det" arguments are mutually exclusive. None of the hybrids that got det added in have the 80% CC reduction that people are complaining about.

So yea, lots of misinformation and confusion going on in this thread. I don't have super strong feelings any which way here, but I just want to clarify that a lot of people don't really seem to be up to speed on what they are trying to speak about.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:52 PM by defiasbandit

Foofmonger wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:37 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
Determination is overtuned on this server. Why is this hard to understand? It's not balanced, especially on many classes. This a game where damage interrupts ranged attacks. Red CC shouldn't last only 10 seconds. Nobody here is saying that there shouldn't be det, the issue is the numbers are too high.

Det 9 is only a 55% reduction.

Det 9 is not giving red CC a 10 second duration unless for some reason, it only has a 22 second duration in the first place.

The hyperbole is real here.

Anyway, there are a bunch of different arguments floating around in this thread that don't really connect.

1. Is that det itself is just too strong and makes red CC "useless" as stated above. This is a pretty bad argument because it just isn't the case. Det 9, at a 55% reduction is perfectly reasonable and basically cuts CC time slightly over half, meaning a red 60 second CC will last 25 seconds for instance. This is intended, and fine.
2. I'm going to assume that the people who are trying to make the "det is too strong" argument are actually conflating det9 vs det9 + stoicism on tanks/light tank classes. This is where you get the "my CC only lasts 10 seconds" situation, because Stoicism gives an additional 25% CC duration reduction, for a total of 80%.
3. The initial argument being made in the thread is that some classes shoudn't have det at all (skald). Please note that not a single class that was given det (mostly hybrids) has access to stoicism. This means that the "det/stoicism" is too strong and that the "some of these classes shouldn't have det" arguments are mutually exclusive. None of the hybrids that got det added in have the 80% CC reduction that people are complaining about.

So yea, lots of misinformation and confusion going on in this thread. I don't have super strong feelings any which way here, but I just want to clarify that a lot of people don't really seem to be up to speed on what they are trying to speak about.

22 points for det 9. Only 22 points. Skald with det 9 for 22 points. Spare me. Caster sits root or mez for 45 seconds. Light tanks sits root for under 10. Imbalanced.

Low CD purge + Det9 for 22 points. Yeah uh nobody is saying det shouldn't exist, but why do some classes get access to it, and why is it only 22 points.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:57 PM by Zansobar

Light tanks get Stoicism for free.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:55 PM by Bradekes

Foofmonger wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:37 PM
Det 9 is only a 55% reduction.

Keep in mind, resistances don't only affect spell damage, they also affect CC duration. So 26% of full CC time from resistances then 55% of that is a much smaller duration.
A 9 second spell stun with resistance goes down to 6.5seconds then with det9 that goes down to 3 seconds.
If this is tank or light tank with stoicism then it's even lower.

Added note: This is not considering if the target also has resistances buffs from buff spec classes. The duration of CC can be nearly nonexistent

Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:11 AM by merry75

just plain stupid to have new ra system with 1 65

Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:48 PM by inoeth

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:52 PM
Foofmonger wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:37 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
Determination is overtuned on this server. Why is this hard to understand? It's not balanced, especially on many classes. This a game where damage interrupts ranged attacks. Red CC shouldn't last only 10 seconds. Nobody here is saying that there shouldn't be det, the issue is the numbers are too high.

Det 9 is only a 55% reduction.

Det 9 is not giving red CC a 10 second duration unless for some reason, it only has a 22 second duration in the first place.

The hyperbole is real here.

Anyway, there are a bunch of different arguments floating around in this thread that don't really connect.

1. Is that det itself is just too strong and makes red CC "useless" as stated above. This is a pretty bad argument because it just isn't the case. Det 9, at a 55% reduction is perfectly reasonable and basically cuts CC time slightly over half, meaning a red 60 second CC will last 25 seconds for instance. This is intended, and fine.
2. I'm going to assume that the people who are trying to make the "det is too strong" argument are actually conflating det9 vs det9 + stoicism on tanks/light tank classes. This is where you get the "my CC only lasts 10 seconds" situation, because Stoicism gives an additional 25% CC duration reduction, for a total of 80%.
3. The initial argument being made in the thread is that some classes shoudn't have det at all (skald). Please note that not a single class that was given det (mostly hybrids) has access to stoicism. This means that the "det/stoicism" is too strong and that the "some of these classes shouldn't have det" arguments are mutually exclusive. None of the hybrids that got det added in have the 80% CC reduction that people are complaining about.

So yea, lots of misinformation and confusion going on in this thread. I don't have super strong feelings any which way here, but I just want to clarify that a lot of people don't really seem to be up to speed on what they are trying to speak about.

22 points for det 9. Only 22 points. Skald with det 9 for 22 points. Spare me. Caster sits root or mez for 45 seconds. Light tanks sits root for under 10. Imbalanced.

Low CD purge + Det9 for 22 points. Yeah uh nobody is saying det shouldn't exist, but why do some classes get access to it, and why is it only 22 points.

do you even believe what you say? did you even read your qouted post? det9 on hybrid does not decreas cc time to 10 sec! det9 costs 22 points yes but you also say det9+ "low CD" purge costs 22 points that is in fact wrong because 5 min purge costs you 30 points thats 52 points further i doubt anyone gets this combination nor anyone alrdy has that combination

Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:49 PM by inoeth

merry75 wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:11 AM
just plain stupid to have new ra system with 1 65

could you explain why? stating something without evidence is just a useless opinion based feelings

Fri 8 Feb 2019 1:00 PM by Afuldan

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:48 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:52 PM
Foofmonger wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:37 PM
Det 9 is only a 55% reduction.

Det 9 is not giving red CC a 10 second duration unless for some reason, it only has a 22 second duration in the first place.

The hyperbole is real here.

Anyway, there are a bunch of different arguments floating around in this thread that don't really connect.

1. Is that det itself is just too strong and makes red CC "useless" as stated above. This is a pretty bad argument because it just isn't the case. Det 9, at a 55% reduction is perfectly reasonable and basically cuts CC time slightly over half, meaning a red 60 second CC will last 25 seconds for instance. This is intended, and fine.
2. I'm going to assume that the people who are trying to make the "det is too strong" argument are actually conflating det9 vs det9 + stoicism on tanks/light tank classes. This is where you get the "my CC only lasts 10 seconds" situation, because Stoicism gives an additional 25% CC duration reduction, for a total of 80%.
3. The initial argument being made in the thread is that some classes shoudn't have det at all (skald). Please note that not a single class that was given det (mostly hybrids) has access to stoicism. This means that the "det/stoicism" is too strong and that the "some of these classes shouldn't have det" arguments are mutually exclusive. None of the hybrids that got det added in have the 80% CC reduction that people are complaining about.

So yea, lots of misinformation and confusion going on in this thread. I don't have super strong feelings any which way here, but I just want to clarify that a lot of people don't really seem to be up to speed on what they are trying to speak about.

22 points for det 9. Only 22 points. Skald with det 9 for 22 points. Spare me. Caster sits root or mez for 45 seconds. Light tanks sits root for under 10. Imbalanced.

Low CD purge + Det9 for 22 points. Yeah uh nobody is saying det shouldn't exist, but why do some classes get access to it, and why is it only 22 points.

do you even believe what you say? did you even read your qouted post? det9 on hybrid does not decreas cc time to 10 sec! det9 costs 22 points yes but you also say det9+ "low CD" purge costs 22 points that is in fact wrong because 5 min purge costs you 30 points thats 52 points further i doubt anyone gets this combination nor anyone alrdy has that combination

Det9 / purge 2 is heavy tanks first RA for group...

Fri 8 Feb 2019 2:19 PM by inoeth

Afuldan wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 1:00 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:48 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:52 PM
22 points for det 9. Only 22 points. Skald with det 9 for 22 points. Spare me. Caster sits root or mez for 45 seconds. Light tanks sits root for under 10. Imbalanced.

Low CD purge + Det9 for 22 points. Yeah uh nobody is saying det shouldn't exist, but why do some classes get access to it, and why is it only 22 points.

do you even believe what you say? did you even read your qouted post? det9 on hybrid does not decreas cc time to 10 sec! det9 costs 22 points yes but you also say det9+ "low CD" purge costs 22 points that is in fact wrong because 5 min purge costs you 30 points thats 52 points further i doubt anyone gets this combination nor anyone alrdy has that combination

Det9 / purge 2 is heavy tanks first RA for group...

yeah but thats not short cool down

Fri 8 Feb 2019 2:27 PM by Afuldan

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 2:19 PM
Afuldan wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 1:00 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:48 PM
do you even believe what you say? did you even read your qouted post? det9 on hybrid does not decreas cc time to 10 sec! det9 costs 22 points yes but you also say det9+ "low CD" purge costs 22 points that is in fact wrong because 5 min purge costs you 30 points thats 52 points further i doubt anyone gets this combination nor anyone alrdy has that combination

Det9 / purge 2 is heavy tanks first RA for group...

yeah but thats not short cool down

Don’t need short cooldown, I’m saying at RR 4L4 its possible to have det9/purge2/lw/tireless. 4L9 for 10 min purge3 with everything else ya need as a tank. 5L9 for purge5. Considering already RR7+ here, someones gonna have a bad day if they run into one of those high RR.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:01 PM by Tritri

kmark101 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 4:46 PM
@Op because you think standing 45 seconds in mez is not the exact reason that destroys all pvp activities? CC's should be minimal and every best possible tools should reduce CC in every possible way for every class. CC is the most retarded, game-killing concept of any MMO. People play the game to fight, have action, not to stand without the ability to do anything because 1 person pushed 1 button quick. Determination is a great bandaid to this problem and every single class should have it, the dynamic of the game is a lot better if everyone can do stuffs instead of standing and watching as they slowly die motionless.

If you don"t want your game to just be about "who's zerg is larger", you need a solide cc mecanics. If you can't "crowd control", the largest crowd wins

Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:19 PM by kedelin

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:00 AM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:17 AM
He's right. Stop ignoring the reality. This isn't about minstrels, this is about determination being overtuned and how it effects tons of classes that use CC. Red Roots lasting 8 seconds. Stuns lasting 2 seconds etc.. Tons of classes with Det that shouldn't get it like Skalds. The determination % values are too high.

I am pretty sure that math doesn't check out.

Is the sky falling again Defias?

Put down the pipe on your math... details nine is 55%... means 9 sec stun is now 4.... 1 min root is 25sec....

Also I played a minstrel in beta here and if you die solo to anything solo you have nothing to bitch about... that is all on you cause minstrel is the true I win class

Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:22 PM by defiasbandit

kedelin wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:19 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:00 AM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:17 AM
He's right. Stop ignoring the reality. This isn't about minstrels, this is about determination being overtuned and how it effects tons of classes that use CC. Red Roots lasting 8 seconds. Stuns lasting 2 seconds etc.. Tons of classes with Det that shouldn't get it like Skalds. The determination % values are too high.

I am pretty sure that math doesn't check out.

Is the sky falling again Defias?

Put down the pipe on your math... details nine is 55%... means 9 sec stun is now 4.... 1 min root is 25sec....

Also I played a minstrel in beta here and if you die solo to anything solo you have nothing to bitch about... that is all on you cause minstrel is the true I win class

Stoicsm, resists, det 9 for 22 points. Red cc lasting 10 seconds. Skald with sos, det 9, purge 3.

Thats not how daoc works.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:27 PM by Bradekes

kedelin wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:19 PM
Put down the pipe on your math... details nine is 55%... means 9 sec stun is now 4.... 1 min root is 25sec....

Also I played a minstrel in beta here and if you die solo to anything solo you have nothing to bitch about... that is all on you cause minstrel is the true I win class

To reiterate, but shorten, my exact post because no one likes to read everything. You cannot forget about resistance and buffed resistance will also lower CC! Then reduce that amount by determination. Ever think about the reason CC spells have a spell damage type in their description?

Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:10 PM by Zansobar

Do casted resistance buffs lower cc duration here or not? I thought a dev had stated they do not. Also does Avoidance of Magic lower cc duration or not here?

Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:20 PM by rubaduck

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:10 PM
Do casted resistance buffs lower cc duration here or not? I thought a dev had stated they do not. Also does Avoidance of Magic lower cc duration or not here?

Resistance in general (to the spell type) on a player lowers the duration. Not by much, but it is vital to have them capped. AoM is the same.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:23 PM by Bradekes

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:10 PM
Do casted resistance buffs lower cc duration here or not? I thought a dev had stated they do not. Also does Avoidance of Magic lower cc duration or not here?

Seeings they[resist buffs] increase your primary resistance they would affect CC duration. AoM is a secondary resist only for decreasing magic damage.

Apparently AoM used to affect CC too, but that was before NF RA's

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:20 PM
Resistance in general (to the spell type) on a player lowers the duration. Not by much, but it is vital to have them capped. AoM is the same.

I would like to see your evidence that resistance % is not directly related to reduction in CC duration with the same %'s... It would be nice to help figure out how much of a problem Determination could be.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:28 PM by rubaduck

This is laughable. Any changes to Det will give minstrels, a class you play much more power.

Before defias and all those keyboard warriors on the forums point out it's not about minstrels, lets look at some facts about CC on a minstrel in general here.

Minstrels has a 9 second instant castable stun.
Minstrels has single target mezz
Minstrels has aoe mezz
Minstrels has stealth
Minstrels has 204% speed.

If you remove Det from hybrids, you just give minstrels more power, because it will afffect 3 of their abilities, which they largely use to sneak up and kill people with. It's not about minstrels, it's about CC, and unfortunately minstrels are heavily packed with CC (a tad too much if you ask me but I am ok with it). Removing Det from certain classes just because you struggle with it as a minstrel is unfortunately a very invalid point. It tells me you're bad at reading the situation you're in and blame Det and not yourself for acting upon it. Hybrids has Det on Phoenix, because it is the right thing to give them to make them more attractive to play in RvR.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:15 PM by Bradekes

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:28 PM
This is laughable. Any changes to Det will give minstrels, a class you play much more power.

Well I see you dodged your claim that resistance is not a full effect on CC duration.. Kudos to that!

However, would you expect a person who plays a non-CC class to complain about such a matter? Only a person that experiences the hardships of a broken system can really be the one to bring it up. I am not saying I want to buff all CC classes, but some classes, like my Light Eldritch, have very short CC durations as their only means of defense. Minstrel don't have full length AoE mezz either.

So if you want some comparison vs what is fair.
Minstrel AoE Mezz = 30s
Resistance 26%
30 x 0.74 = 22.2second
Determination 55%
22.2 x 0.45 = 9.99s

Now if they have Group Resist Buff
Resistance 50%
30 x 0.5 = 15second
Determination 55%
15 x 0.44 = 6.75seconds

Minstel Stun = 9s
Resists - 6.66s
w/det - 3s
w/buffs, resists, det - 2s

Another thing to keep in mind - Determination doesn't affect the stun by Slam, if it did things would be totally different... so the same classes that are pretty much dodging your CC are also going to stun you longer than your mezz lasts... Is this fair? I don't think so seeings there is no counter RA for CC duration. These numbers also do not include Stoicism classes, which I am not sure how that ability factors in, meaning I am not sure if it stacks directly or secondarily with any of the other means of CC reduction.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:32 PM by Dimir

Casted resists definitely affect CC times. NF's Avoidance of Magic is not suppose to but it does here (its specifically stated in the wiki).

Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:51 PM by rubaduck

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:15 PM
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:28 PM
This is laughable. Any changes to Det will give minstrels, a class you play much more power.
Well I see you dodged your claim that resistance is not a full effect on CC duration.. Kudos to that!

However, would you expect a person who plays a non-CC class to complain about such a matter? Only a person that experiences the hardships of a broken system can really be the one to bring it up. I am not saying I want to buff all CC classes, but some classes, like my Light Eldritch, have very short CC durations as their only means of defense. Minstrel don't have full length AoE mezz either.

So if you want some comparison vs what is fair.
Minstrel AoE Mezz = 30s
Resistance 26%
30 x 0.74 = 22.2second
Determination 55%
22.2 x 0.45 = 9.99s

Now if they have Group Resist Buff
Resistance 50%
30 x 0.5 = 15second
Determination 55%
15 x 0.44 = 6.75seconds

Minstel Stun = 9s
Resists - 6.66s
w/det - 3s
w/buffs, resists, det - 2s

Another thing to keep in mind - Determination doesn't affect the stun by Slam, if it did things would be totally different... so the same classes that are pretty much dodging your CC are also going to stun you longer than your mezz lasts... Is this fair? I don't think so seeings there is no counter RA for CC duration. These numbers also do not include Stoicism classes, which I am not sure how that ability factors in, meaning I am not sure if it stacks directly or secondarily with any of the other means of CC reduction.

I understand the point of view here. Det is a powerful, if not THE most powerful RA and will be brought to max by any class that can spec it because it is just a mandatory thing. CC is a powerful tool in RvR and anyone who can mitigate it will do it. To reflect on it, why should a BM, Merc and a Berserker get it, but not a Reaver, Valewalker or Savage? And once we're in that ballpark, why shouldn't a paladin, thane, warden, champion and friar get it too? The 4 last ones are the most underperformed (Warden is a bit iffy so I don't really count it in, as their support is among the best in the realm), while Reaver and VW perform much worse then any of the light tanks without DET. As a minstrel, wouldn't it make more sense to just avoid these classes when you're solo? Because it will matter less in a small man, and nearly at all in an 8 man. Solo is the biggest DET problem for a minstrel, and should the server cater to the merry few who wants to indulge in that?

Instead of asking our self who's asking the questions, lets rather look at the point of view DET is being asked about in the first place. A grouped minstrel will ask from a completely different point of view, wouldn't you agree? I mean, if you gave an enchanter and other casters DET I would kind of agree, as that would shift the balance of CC too much in a disfavor for any gameplay. Minstrels are in that sweet position where they can, just like infiltrators and scouts, pick and choose their target when they solo but in a grouped situation, say 8 man, the minstrel would NEVER stun a det class, and if so everyone can say that is a mistake the player has to own, and not DET's fault. A grouped minstrel will never bother about it because a) they will pick a caster or healer to force them to burn purge or b) use it on a caster or healer who has nothing BUT the resistances to mitigate the length and duration.

If OP is a grouped minstrel and don't play solo, why use your instant stun on a Det class in a fight? It's not hard recognizing the classes, and you can easily avoid it with practice. This is a player mistake, not a class or game mechanic at fault. Det shouldn't be nerfed in group fights, it would make fights A LOT more cumbersome. Also consider that you have cure nearsight on phoenix, maybe even just as powerful. And that is a mechanic I would love to keep even steven as a whole.

If he is a solo minstrel, then I begin to ask about his/her motive behind it. Is it because there are less "easy" targets to kill? Is it because they don't want to study their solo fight? What benefit will it have to cater to solo players in daoc when the majority doesn't play it?

The time tables speaks for them self, I agree. It shows how powerful DET is but it also shows that the player behind the minstrel needs to be more careful with his/her targets. And they have stealth ability to help them do that.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:52 PM by Zansobar

What are the tiers for the cc reduction effects (the order in which they are applied)? Primary resists are Tier 1....are any others Tier 1?

Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:47 AM by

gruenesschaf

AoM does not affect CC duration since the switch to nf ras. Primary resists, meaning item + buff resists, did and still do affect cc duration.
Det will neither be added to nor removed from any class.
Stoicism will neither be added to nor removed from any class.

Stoicism + Det 9 is available to all classes that had access to det in 1.65, det 5 back then was 75% for 22 points, here it's 55% (det 9, 22 points) + 25% stoicism = 80%.

Some cc durations after resists / det etc.:

here and 1.65 w/ capped item resists, red resist buff -> 50% total reduction
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining

1.65 w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, aom 3 -> 54.5% total reduction
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining
* 0.91 (9% from aom 3)
= 36.4 seconds remaining

1.65 w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, aom 5 -> 57.5% total reduction
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining
* 0.85 (15% from aom 5)
= 34 seconds remaining

1.65 w/ capped item resists, no resist buff, 75% det 5 -> 81.5% total reduction:
80 second mezz
* 0.74 (26% from resists)
= 59.2 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 14.8 seconds remaining

1.65 w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, 75% det 5 -> 87.5% total reduction:
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 10 seconds remaining

9 second stun
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 4.5 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 1.125 seconds remaining

1.65 w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, 75% det 5 and 9% secondary resist via aom 3 -> 88.6% total reduction :
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining
* 0.91 (9% from aom 3)
= 36.4 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 9.1 seconds remaining

9 second stun
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 4.5 seconds remaining
* 0.91 (9% from aom 3)
= 4.095 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 1.024 seconds remaining

1.65 w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, 75% det 5 and 15% secondary resist via aom 5 -> 89.375% total reduction :
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining
* 0.85 (15% from aom 3)
= 34 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 8.5 seconds remaining

9 second stun
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 4.5 seconds remaining
* 0.85 (15% from aom 3)
= 3.825 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 0.956 seconds remaining

here w/ capped item resists, no resist buff, det 9 + stoicism: 80% -> 85.2% total reduction:
80 second mezz
* 0.74 (26% from resists)
= 59.2 seconds remaining
* 0.2 (80% from det 9 + stoicism)
= 11.84 seconds remaining

here w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, det 9 + stoicism: 80% -> 90% total reduction:
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining
* 0.2 (80% from det 9 + stoicism)
= 8 seconds remaining

9 second stun
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 4.5 seconds remaining
* 0.2 (80% from det 9 + stoicism)
= 0.9 seconds remaining

hybrids w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, det 9: 55% -> 77.5% total reduction
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 remaining
* 0.45 (55% from det 9)
= 18 seconds remaining

9 second stun
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 4.5 seconds remaining
* 0.45 (55% from det 9)
= 2.025 seconds remaining

Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:35 AM by defiasbandit

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:47 AM
AoM does not affect CC duration since the switch to nf ras. Primary resists, meaning item + buff resists, did and still do affect cc duration.
Det will neither be added to nor removed from any class.
Stoicism will neither be added to nor removed from any class.

Stoicism + Det 9 is available to all classes that had access to det in 1.65, det 5 back then was 75% for 22 points, here it's 55% (det 9, 22 points) + 25% stoicism = 80%.

Some cc durations after resists / det etc.:

here and 1.65 w/ capped item resists, red resist buff -> 50% total reduction
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining

1.65 w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, aom 3 -> 54.5% total reduction
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining
* 0.91 (9% from aom 3)
= 36.4 seconds remaining

1.65 w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, aom 5 -> 57.5% total reduction
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining
* 0.85 (15% from aom 5)
= 34 seconds remaining

1.65 w/ capped item resists, no resist buff, 75% det 5 -> 81.5% total reduction:
80 second mezz
* 0.74 (26% from resists)
= 59.2 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 14.8 seconds remaining

1.65 w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, 75% det 5 -> 87.5% total reduction:
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 10 seconds remaining

9 second stun
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 4.5 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 1.125 seconds remaining

1.65 w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, 75% det 5 and 9% secondary resist via aom 3 -> 88.6% total reduction :
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining
* 0.91 (9% from aom 3)
= 36.4 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 9.1 seconds remaining

9 second stun
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 4.5 seconds remaining
* 0.91 (9% from aom 3)
= 4.095 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 1.024 seconds remaining

1.65 w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, 75% det 5 and 15% secondary resist via aom 5 -> 89.375% total reduction :
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining
* 0.85 (15% from aom 3)
= 34 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 8.5 seconds remaining

9 second stun
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 4.5 seconds remaining
* 0.85 (15% from aom 3)
= 3.825 seconds remaining
* 0.25 (75% from det 5)
= 0.956 seconds remaining

here w/ capped item resists, no resist buff, det 9 + stoicism: 80% -> 85.2% total reduction:
80 second mezz
* 0.74 (26% from resists)
= 59.2 seconds remaining
* 0.2 (80% from det 9 + stoicism)
= 11.84 seconds remaining

here w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, det 9 + stoicism: 80% -> 90% total reduction:
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 seconds remaining
* 0.2 (80% from det 9 + stoicism)
= 8 seconds remaining

9 second stun
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 4.5 seconds remaining
* 0.2 (80% from det 9 + stoicism)
= 0.9 seconds remaining

hybrids w/ capped item resists, red resist buff, det 9: 55% -> 77.5% total reduction
80 second mezz
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 40 remaining
* 0.45 (55% from det 9)
= 18 seconds remaining

9 second stun
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 4.5 seconds remaining
* 0.45 (55% from det 9)
= 2.025 seconds remaining

Thats fine, but why isn't it 34 points for Det 9. You can get Det 9 here for 22 points. That is what isn't balanced.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:37 AM by

gruenesschaf

You also can't get charge here, I think you're happier with 22 point det 9 than any form of nf charge.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:42 AM by defiasbandit

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:37 AM
You also can't get charge here, I think you're happier with 22 point det 9 than any form of nf charge.

New new RAs are meant for an entirely different version of DAOC. Freeing up 12 points on a class like a Skald seems unwarranted. We all agree that Det on many classes here is needed, but giving them 12 free RA points isn't that fair. A lot of the RAs that were altered by the dev team are either very overtuned or undertuned. And yes I'm going there. Volcanic Pillar costs 30 point for 600 damage with fall off. It used cost 14 points and did 700+ and was instant cast with Old RAs. The point cost is more then double, then you nerf the damage on it? The list goes on in terms of new new RAs that were added here, then improperly buffed/nerfed. Physical defense being another.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:48 AM by Afuldan

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:37 AM
You also can't get charge here, I think you're happier with 22 point det 9 than any form of nf charge.

In b4 someone gets triggered.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:53 AM by

gruenesschaf

It was specifically aimed at people like defias complaining about det, not tanks having det, those would happily pay 34 points and get charge :p

Sat 9 Feb 2019 2:28 AM by Afuldan

I think its making people think about a different target priority when it comes to RvR, where any melee can wreck your support, due to reduced CC with det.

People have honed their target selection over 18 years, as well. Can’t break those habits easily.

It makes fights very fast. Focus everything at anything that moves.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 3:02 AM by Bradekes

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:47 AM
9 second stun
* 0.5 (50% from resists)
= 4.5 seconds remaining
* 0.2 (80% from det 9 + stoicism)
= 0.9 seconds remaining

Looks like I am rolling a Hero and not looking back... Sorry when I'm 14L0 and all you cc are stuck at your low ranks!

Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:44 AM by Fames

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:53 AM
It was specifically aimed at people like defias complaining about det, not tanks having det, those would happily pay 34 points and get charge :p

Id pay 50 to get charge

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:37 PM by Quik

I have always felt CC was the absolute stupidest thing to throw into an MMO so I am glad they made these changes, its one of the few things that I thought DAoC really screwed up and I am glad Pheonix is leaning this direction...and this is coming from a player that enjoys a Bard more then any other class.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:48 PM by Sepplord

CC (and the interrupt system) though is also the thing that lets good players overcome huge number differences

I hate being CCed...I love CCing though

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:50 PM by Quik

Don't get me wrong, I love CCing on my bard...I just think it is bad for the game.

It separates higher RR from lower RR too drastically in my opinion, plus I just feel nothing should put half an army on hold so easy.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:53 PM by Afuldan

Quik wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:50 PM
Don't get me wrong, I love CCing on my bard...I just think it is bad for the game.

It separates higher RR from lower RR too drastically in my opinion, plus I just feel nothing should put half an army on hold so easy.

Thus, Det for melee.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:57 PM by Quik

Afuldan wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:53 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:50 PM
Don't get me wrong, I love CCing on my bard...I just think it is bad for the game.

It separates higher RR from lower RR too drastically in my opinion, plus I just feel nothing should put half an army on hold so easy.

Thus, Det for melee.

Yep which is why I am all for Det and for a reduced rate to get it.

Anything that reduces CC of all kinds is something I agree with completely.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 5:01 PM by Afuldan

Quik wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:57 PM
Afuldan wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:53 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:50 PM
Don't get me wrong, I love CCing on my bard...I just think it is bad for the game.

It separates higher RR from lower RR too drastically in my opinion, plus I just feel nothing should put half an army on hold so easy.

Thus, Det for melee.

Yep which is why I am all for Det and for a reduced rate to get it.

Anything that reduces CC of all kinds is something I agree with completely.

I think that the mindset of old school players makes it hard for them to adapt. Hybrids are a high priority target now, instead of the lowest.

By the time an old school caller realizes that the 3 hybrids that got mezzed on inc are on his support, it’s too late as they now have only a few seconds to respond, instead of 30+seconds of picking and choosing support classes to collapse on.

Tl;dr : new target priorities fuck people up, and they don’t like being shaken from 17 years of experience.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:27 PM by opossum12

I find it extremely difficult to take some comments seriously when I read someone asking why Minstrels don’t get det...

Sun 10 Feb 2019 9:49 AM by Frigzy

Det on minstrels is ludicrous. They are already completely immune to all CC apart from Stun due to the ridiculous mechanics of their pet charm.

Det on Skalds is questionable in and of itself. At a 22 point cost it's just too strong. They already get plenty of toys on top of that.

The current state of both of these classes makes them the among the strongest soloers on Phoenix. At high RR Skald will claim the number one spot with ease, having access to Det 9 (at 22pts).

As a solo caster (Eld) I know that I'm going to face some difficulties facing certain classes. However, with the current setting a large part of my enemies will grow to become simply unbeatable regardless of how well I play. This is considering the fact that as an Eld I already have access to above average utility compared to other casters.

The current RA implementation creates a solo hierarchy where casters are at the very bottom. Some of them being utterly pointless to play due to their complete inability to defeat certain (most) solo enemies they will encounter regardless of their own actions.

If something can be done to bring some more balance to solo hierarchy I'm all for it, but I'm not sure it that will even happen.