Calling All Phoenix Archer Experts

From some preliminary testing in beta, it seems high bow spec is completely worthless as it adds extremely little damage. That leaves us with the following specs:

27 bow: last crit shot
30 bow: penetrating arrow 1 (Edit: not viable)
35 bow: rapid fire
40 bow: penetrating arrow 2 (Edit: not viable)

Question 1: If spec'd 27 bow, does last crit shot break bubble 100% of the time? Are both caster self bubble and pbt bubble mechanically the same?
Question 2: What is the difference between penetrating arrow 1 and 2? Random guess: 50% chance to penetrate bubble vs 75% chance?
Question 3: Is rapid fire actually useful? Is it more Damage Per Second than regular bow shot? Do you use it 24/7 after initial crit shot?

Tue 29 Jan 2019 10:59 PM by Turtle006

Penetrating arrow only breaks pulsing BT, it never breaks self casted (yeah, it is worthless)

Wed 30 Jan 2019 2:37 PM by Ardri

So it looks like only reasonable spec is 27 bow or 35 bow. If anyone is able to answer my three questions, i'd love to know.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 3:17 PM by HelloPancake

Rapid Fire is most useful for keeping casters interrupted with a faster bow (Midgard doesn't worry about this because all their bows are fast).
A well positioned archer with rapid fire who doesn't make himself a target can interrupt lock down a significant number of back line caster/healers by himself.
Cap your speed and find the right bow to get your rapid fire down to around 1.5s to give yourself a chance against 1 v 1 with casters though.
Granted if you're the only target, casters have at the very least a free uninterruptable quick-cast every 30 seconds-- while archers get stuck with an interrupt that seems to reapply itself even after you're able to draw your bow again and nothing else has happened (3ish seconds each time, up to 9!! seconds)-- so take it with a grain of salt.

As stated above Crit shot never penetrates any bubble. Penetrating shot is 50% damage against PBT and II is 75% damage against PBT. Never against self bubble.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 5:19 PM by Ardri

So you're saying if a caster has up self bubble, crit shot will never hit them? Doesn't sound right.

And penetrating arrow 1 is 50% damage vs pbt and lvl 2 is 75% damage vs pbt? What you said makes no sense.

And why do people keep saying you need to use rapid fire at 1.5s to interrupt casters??? An archer shooting a caster at range with a 5.0 bow is quite literally exactly the same as a 5.0 2h melee weapon hitting them toe to toe. You can't "time it just right" to cast through someone melee'ing you unless you use quickcast.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 7:03 PM by Cadebrennus

Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Jan 2019 5:19 PM
So you're saying if a caster has up self bubble, crit shot will never hit them? Doesn't sound right.

And penetrating arrow 1 is 50% damage vs pbt and lvl 2 is 75% damage vs pbt? What you said makes no sense.

And why do people keep saying you need to use rapid fire at 1.5s to interrupt casters??? An archer shooting a caster at range with a 5.0 bow is quite literally exactly the same as a 5.0 2h melee weapon hitting them toe to toe. You can't "time it just right" to cast through someone melee'ing you unless you use quickcast.

People are saying this because Casters can get below 1.5 cast time quite easily with just Dex buffs. The only way to outcast a Caster is to be nearly as fast as them. The only way this is reliably possible is with a 4.0 speed bow, 17% haste pot, 140+ Quickness, and Rapid Fire.

If you're good at target hopping you can lock down 3 to 4 casters/healers, becoming an asset to even a Visi group.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 7:03 PM by Turtle006

Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Jan 2019 5:19 PM
So you're saying if a caster has up self bubble, crit shot will never hit them? Doesn't sound right.

That is exactly what I am saying, it may not sound right, but it is.
Penetrating arrow has a 50%/75% chance to break PBT for full damage.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 7:51 AM by inoeth

Haste does not apply to bowspeed

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:18 AM by Ceen

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Jan 2019 7:03 PM
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Jan 2019 5:19 PM
So you're saying if a caster has up self bubble, crit shot will never hit them? Doesn't sound right.

And penetrating arrow 1 is 50% damage vs pbt and lvl 2 is 75% damage vs pbt? What you said makes no sense.

And why do people keep saying you need to use rapid fire at 1.5s to interrupt casters??? An archer shooting a caster at range with a 5.0 bow is quite literally exactly the same as a 5.0 2h melee weapon hitting them toe to toe. You can't "time it just right" to cast through someone melee'ing you unless you use quickcast.

People are saying this because Casters can get below 1.5 cast time quite easily with just Dex buffs. The only way to outcast a Caster is to be nearly as fast as them. The only way this is reliably possible is with a 4.0 speed bow, 17% haste pot, 140+ Quickness, and Rapid Fire.

If you're good at target hopping you can lock down 3 to 4 casters/healers, becoming an asset to even a Visi group.

Haste has no effect on bow speed

And I repeat myself, the only damage you deal to kill a target is crit shot, so if you think how to maximize your amount of crit shots you will see a better win rate. Won't make all my advanced secrets public though! ^^

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:30 AM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 7:51 AM
Haste does not apply to bowspeed

It must have just been a new Archery thing then, and not a classic Archery thing. It's been so long since new Archery I couldn't remember, thanks.

http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?139018-CV-Dex-Breakpoint-for-Archery
"This shows you how much haste you will need for level of dex to cap speed."

But that's new Archery from live so it has no bearing here.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:33 AM by Cadebrennus

Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:18 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Jan 2019 7:03 PM
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Jan 2019 5:19 PM
So you're saying if a caster has up self bubble, crit shot will never hit them? Doesn't sound right.

And penetrating arrow 1 is 50% damage vs pbt and lvl 2 is 75% damage vs pbt? What you said makes no sense.

And why do people keep saying you need to use rapid fire at 1.5s to interrupt casters??? An archer shooting a caster at range with a 5.0 bow is quite literally exactly the same as a 5.0 2h melee weapon hitting them toe to toe. You can't "time it just right" to cast through someone melee'ing you unless you use quickcast.

People are saying this because Casters can get below 1.5 cast time quite easily with just Dex buffs. The only way to outcast a Caster is to be nearly as fast as them. The only way this is reliably possible is with a 4.0 speed bow, 17% haste pot, 140+ Quickness, and Rapid Fire.

If you're good at target hopping you can lock down 3 to 4 casters/healers, becoming an asset to even a Visi group.
Haste has no effect on bow speed
And I repeat myself, the only damage you deal to kill a target is crit shot, so if you think how to maximize your amount of crit shots you will see a better win rate. Won't make all my advanced secrets public though! ^^

Keep your "secrets". I can't think of anything more useless than an Archer firing nothing but Critshots into a group vs group or zerg vs zerg situation. That's just plain bad advice that will get an Archer interrupted then killed in regular RvR. It's fine if you are just ganking solo unbuffed players, but that's probably more your style than mine.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 10:03 AM by Ganil

I have to say that hast buff improving archery speed would be a nice buff lol.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 10:07 AM by Cadebrennus

Ganil wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 10:03 AM
I have to say that hast buff improving archery speed would be a nice buff lol.

I honestly can't see why it's not a thing on classic Archery, being that Archery has to follow the rules of melee (quickness, weapon speed, AF/ABS, armor type, etc.) Templated haste has been a factor on Live Archery for a long time and it felt balanced.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 10:43 AM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:30 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 7:51 AM
Haste does not apply to bowspeed

It must have just been a new Archery thing then, and not a classic Archery thing. It's been so long since new Archery I couldn't remember, thanks.

http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?139018-CV-Dex-Breakpoint-for-Archery
"This shows you how much haste you will need for level of dex to cap speed."

But that's new Archery from live so it has no bearing here.

i remember ppl said haste would apply to bow in classic times but in fact i can not remember i ever noticed haste was increasing bowspeed while shooting back in the time.
so i guess this was more like a wishful thinking than reality, imo haste never applied to bowspeed

Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:36 PM by Snoogy

Honestly I've tested archery damage in battle since launch. I rspecd from 35 bow to 45 bow, and I've seen a substantial increase in damage. My crits have gone from 650-750 to 850-1k almost always 900+ (selecting the appropriate arrow for the target is obviously huge and the lower scale numbers are when I fail to do so)

I set out to play as a true archer, and I like my spec. I'm 36 stealth, 31 pierce 19,CD 36 PF 45 Bow which I switched up from 36 stl 35 bow higher melee. Sure I don't compete with melee assassins very well that perf me, but if I catch those same opponents from an advantageous archer position I easily 2-3 shot 90% of SBS/infis. If I wanted to play as assassin I would have probably rolled a NS.. But let me just say as an all solo 4L8 Bow Ranger I've been thoroughly enjoying the bow spec and make good rps playing as a true archer as I intended to. Bow rangers aren't dead.. But you have to be content knowing you don't compete melee but if you find the right perch you'll hit damn hard.

Just my 2 cents

-Propagandhi

Thu 31 Jan 2019 7:29 PM by Ardri

Snoogy wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:36 PM
Honestly I've tested archery damage in battle since launch. I rspecd from 35 bow to 45 bow, and I've seen a substantial increase in damage. My crits have gone from 650-750 to 850-1k almost always 900+ (selecting the appropriate arrow for the target is obviously huge and the lower scale numbers are when I fail to do so)

I set out to play as a true archer, and I like my spec. I'm 36 stealth, 31 pierce 19,CD 36 PF 45 Bow which I switched up from 36 stl 35 bow higher melee. Sure I don't compete with melee assassins very well that perf me, but if I catch those same opponents from an advantageous archer position I easily 2-3 shot 90% of SBS/infis. If I wanted to play as assassin I would have probably rolled a NS.. But let me just say as an all solo 4L8 Bow Ranger I've been thoroughly enjoying the bow spec and make good rps playing as a true archer as I intended to. Bow rangers aren't dead.. But you have to be content knowing you don't compete melee but if you find the right perch you'll hit damn hard.

Just my 2 cents

-Propagandhi

You say the change from 35 to 45 bow increased your overall crit damage by 200-300? I highly doubt it as they haven't changed bow damage or mechanics since beta. I'm not saying you aren't hitting people hard, but i'd need to see a test on the same target or at least the training dummies to believe a 200-300dmg increase.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:36 PM by Isavyr

During beta, I tested 35/45/50 bow spec, and the damage. I'll release some of the information:

unknown speed bow, unknown class (not going to jump into differences between classes, but I'll point out all three archers seem to have roughly the same damage curve and DPS with bow)
35 spec Critshot: 131 DPS
592 damage

45 spec Critshot: 137 DPS
620 damage

50 spec Critshot: 148 DPS
667 damage

Two further points:

Rapid fire is good DPS.
Rapid fire with 5.2 speed bow will go to with Rapid fire II, template, all-buff potion.

1.8s

Edit: Fixed bow speed. It was 1.8s, not 1.5s, and the base bow speed was larger.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:39 PM by Cadebrennus

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:36 PM
During beta, I tested 35/45/50 bow spec, and the damage. I'll release some of the information:

unknown speed bow, unknown class (not going to jump into differences between classes, but I'll point out all three archers seem to have roughly the same damage curve and DPS with bow)
35 spec Critshot: 131 DPS
592 damage

45 spec Critshot: 137 DPS
620 damage

50 spec Critshot: 148 DPS
667 damage

Two further points:
Rapid fire is good DPS.
Rapid fire with 5.0 speed bow will go to with Rapid fire II, template, all-buff potion.
1.5s

What was your final Quickness?

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:43 PM by Isavyr

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:39 PM
What was your final Quickness?

Whatever temp gave with Saracen, Lurikeen, and Kobold.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:19 AM by Snoogy

You know I'll be honest I didn't run controlled tests enough to truly claim the higher damage increase in spec unfortunately so I won't be able to defend that. What I do know is with 45 bow I hit a lot harder than I was expecting giving how much people are writing off bow damage as gimp. Bow ranger thus far has been all about picking the right target, but when I do it's pretty sizable damage and 3-4 shotting most targets is common practice. I don't want to partake in melee fights really so I'm staying strong as ranger spec. Being non competitive in melee does get frustrating, but when I play my game the getting is good. So I do apologize that I can't support the numbers between damage variance of 35-45 but I can offer that any rangers wanting to go heavy bow- you will hit hard and you will get solo kills if you mind your positioning, acquire high ground and maximize your range on the right targets

Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:22 AM by Snoogy

You know I'll be honest I didn't run controlled tests enough to truly claim the higher damage increase in spec unfortunately so I won't be able to defend that. What I do know is with 45 bow I hit a lot harder than I was expecting giving how much people are writing off bow damage as gimp. Bow ranger thus far has been all about picking the right target, but when I do it's pretty sizable damage and 3-4 shotting most targets is common practice. I don't want to partake in melee fights really so I'm staying strong as ranger spec. Being non competitive in melee does get frustrating, but when I play my game the getting is good. So I do apologize that I can't support the numbers between damage variance of 35-45 but I can offer that any rangers wanting to go heavy bow- you will hit hard and you will get solo kills if you mind your positioning, acquire high ground and maximize your range on the right targets

Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:24 AM by Snoogy

Also what is worth sharing is at 4L8 im currently at Aug Dex 8 so with 36 PF and base Dex buff pot I have 323 Dex

Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:47 AM by Cadebrennus

Snoogy wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:24 AM
Also what is worth sharing is at 4L8 im currently at Aug Dex 8 so with 36 PF and base Dex buff pot I have 323 Dex

I've noticed that stats give a pretty solid return here. I can say that in initial tests I ran in beta I was able to show that point for point, Aug [stat] gave a better return than the increased critical RAs over time.

There may be something to what you've got going on there. Keep it up and keep giving us that data and experience from RvR. I'm glad to see the wide variety in specs, at least for the Ranger community. I just hope the Scout and Hunter players are paying attention and get out of the little tiny boxes they have put themselves into.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 3:23 PM by Ardri

Anyone else have any damage logs for their bow spec? Would like to see more numbers.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 11:59 AM by Hjku

Bad Idea to roll a Highlander Scout then I guess. Would like to see your results with aug dex vs fe,dmg ra

Tbh, i find Viper to be a real problem, way too strong

Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:31 AM by Stimmed

Viper way to strong? takes a 64 dmg a tick dot to 80ish with viper 5 thats 30 points.....

Wed 6 Feb 2019 2:55 PM by Glimmer

Ardri wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 3:23 PM
Anyone else have any damage logs for their bow spec? Would like to see more numbers.

Not damage logs but couple critshots/normalshots from my night rvr on scout:

My spec: 45bow,42shield,36stealth,29slash.
My Ras: Aug dex 7,Mastery of Archery 4,Mastery of Blocking 1, Long wind 1, Tireless 1.
Weapons: Bow 5.5s 99% crafted, sword 99% 3.2s crafted, shield 99% small.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:33 PM by Ganil

Fatal is a lv50 rr4 shadowblade accoring to the herald so I give some value to that one. It's representative.
Hoki rr5 animist.

It's funny to see taht you deal more damage on sins than on casters lol.

The last one is not even lv50 and not really stuffed so it's not really that representative.

How much dex do you have ?