Mastery of stealth - Phoenix Freeshard

Description:
Modifies stealth detection and stealth movement. Camouflage counters the Mastery of Stealth bonus, allowing an archer to only be seen at the normal range. Doesn't affect detect hidden classes when they are detecting other detect hidden classes. (Meaning it has no affect on assassins detecting assassins.)

Does that mean if i got MoS 9 and a SB got MoS 2 i wont be able to see him before he can see me? because we both got detect hidden ?

Tue 22 Jan 2019 4:27 PM by Stiv

Yeah, MoS is what "See Hidden" eventually turned into. See hidden allowed assassins to see archers/minstrels from across the map and made playing those classes solo suck during that time. They didn't want to ruin the cat/mouse game assassins play with each other as it would make crit kind of useless so MoS just doesn't have any effect between assassins. Archers/Minstrel and assassins can detect each other at range with it though. This means that Archers/Minstrel are the best at uncovering stealthers if you wanted to run high MoS in a group or something (kind of like the old Truesight).

Tue 22 Jan 2019 6:25 PM by Turtle006

SInce MoS, Detect HIdden and Camouflage don't exist here (MoS is built into stealth spec as move speed ONLY) this thread seem sort of out of place. The stealth detection guidelines are on the wiki:

http://playphoenix.wiki/stealth-changes/

Tue 22 Jan 2019 8:47 PM by Stiv

Good to know. I knew MoS was baked into stealth but thought it still had detection. That's great news.

edit: I see they have Stealth Lore potions though :/

Tue 22 Jan 2019 11:05 PM by Tillbeast

Just read the patch notes related to stealth and cried. I thought this server was just a copy of the old servers with a few quality of life improvements. No camouflage and the changes to MoS not detecting other stealthers is a huge nerf to non assassins in the stealth war. Non assassins are now just free rp to infs, shades and blades as 9 times out of 10 its who sees the other first wins. No wonder I was just getting owned in the bgs, by time I spotted them they were already lining up there strike. Even a melee spec hunter or ranger will rarely beat an assasisin who sees him first which 9 times out of 10 will be the case. Solo archers just died a death.

Honestly think that unless MoS is not put back to way it was (may not be possible with what patch server based on) then the stealth war is only for assassins. Hunters and rangers will just go visible (and there's better options class wise than a visible archer) and put the points from stealth into other lines and god knows where it leaves scouts, they will prob have to group up.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 12:42 AM by Stiv

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jan 2019 11:05 PM
Just read the patch notes related to stealth and cried. I thought this server was just a copy of the old servers with a few quality of life improvements. No camouflage and the changes to MoS not detecting other stealthers is a huge nerf to non assassins in the stealth war. Non assassins are now just free rp to infs, shades and blades as 9 times out of 10 its who sees the other first wins. No wonder I was just getting owned in the bgs, by time I spotted them they were already lining up there strike. Even a melee spec hunter or ranger will rarely beat an assasisin who sees him first which 9 times out of 10 will be the case. Solo archers just died a death.

Honestly think that unless MoS is not put back to way it was (may not be possible with what patch server based on) then the stealth war is only for assassins. Hunters and rangers will just go visible (and there's better options class wise than a visible archer) and put the points from stealth into other lines and god knows where it leaves scouts, they will prob have to group up.

For a good chunk of when I played live as a Scout, Assassins had passive See Hidden that could see us at pretty much clipping range and we only had truesight on a 30 minute cool-down. The situation here is 1000x better than that. Archers also have access to Ignore Pain which used to be I-win vs assassins. You also don't have to worry about stealthers with high MoS roaming with visis uncovering you for free RP. Camo was a crap bandaid, this situation is pretty good stealth wise. Archers apparently have other problems related to physical damage here.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 8:08 AM by Sepplord

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jan 2019 11:05 PM
Just read the patch notes related to stealth and cried. I thought this server was just a copy of the old servers with a few quality of life improvements. No camouflage and the changes to MoS not detecting other stealthers is a huge nerf to non assassins in the stealth war. Non assassins are now just free rp to infs, shades and blades as 9 times out of 10 its who sees the other first wins. No wonder I was just getting owned in the bgs, by time I spotted them they were already lining up there strike. Even a melee spec hunter or ranger will rarely beat an assasisin who sees him first which 9 times out of 10 will be the case. Solo archers just died a death.

Honestly think that unless MoS is not put back to way it was (may not be possible with what patch server based on) then the stealth war is only for assassins. Hunters and rangers will just go visible (and there's better options class wise than a visible archer) and put the points from stealth into other lines and god knows where it leaves scouts, they will prob have to group up.

For a huge part of classic there was no MOS...why do you think this ruins archers?

Wed 23 Jan 2019 10:21 AM by Tillbeast

It ruins archers because it makes their stealth irrelevant vs assassins. Archers who spec with decent melee skills now have absolutely no chance of beating an assassin as 9 times out of 10 its who sees the other first wins. Assassins still get detect hidden (according to Char Plan) and because they see the archer way before the archer sees them they can land there stun chain off and fight is effectively over by time stun is over. I don't agree with melee archers being able to beat assassins in melee but removing archers only defence vs them is just painful. MoS was primarily used by archers to avoid assassins. Should make all stealthers detect each other at same range of 250.

Also pretty sure the classic Server Gareth archers had MoS to choose from.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 7:07 PM by Vodor

http://playphoenix.wiki/stealth-changes/

So I cried at this, not because of who will win first but because of the distance thing.

Assassins see other assassins at a range of 125.
Assassins see archers at a range of 250.

Anyone able to explain what unit of measurement this is, and how far in a game that really is?

Wed 23 Jan 2019 7:35 PM by Cadebrennus

Vodor wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jan 2019 7:07 PM
http://playphoenix.wiki/stealth-changes/

So I cried at this, not because of who will win first but because of the distance thing.

Assassins see other assassins at a range of 125.
Assassins see archers at a range of 250.

Anyone able to explain what unit of measurement this is, and how far in a game that really is?

Log in and type the following:

/groundset 125

/groundset 250

This will give you a clear visual on what the actual distances are.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 8:38 PM by Stiv

I've always known it as "a horse length" ~ 100.

Sun 3 Feb 2019 10:22 PM by Tillbeast

Its as I suspected, by time you spot the inf or ns they are already lining up there strike and its pretty much game over. Ignore Pain is only relevant if your alive when stun wears off and even if you in melee with full health after IP you not beating a melee specialist in a 1 on 1 with all your stats decreased due to poison. The old way MoS works allowed archers who sacrificed high dps ras to spec high MoS to hunt down other stealthers. My old hunter if he got jump on an infiltrator or NS had a very big advantage.

Archers are pretty much dead on this server with the way MoS works.

Sun 3 Feb 2019 11:34 PM by Zansobar

I would say MOS is just one element that makes archers weaker on this server compared to assassins...

1) Archer bow damage being so low means archers cannot fulfill their traditional role of...actually using a bow, instead they are forced into more of a melee role here.
2) Melee damage being reduced here disproportionately affects bow use since all melee characters fighting each other have the same impediment (so it's a wash in that situation), but bow users against targets at range feel only the reduction in damage since their targets' defense is not reduced (it was actually increased).
3) Assassins were buffed in the non-melee damage area. Envenom was improved with a weapon skill debuff instead of str/con debuff poison, which hurts str/dex weapon users more than originally. Nightshade acuity stat was set to dexterity thus buffing their magic damage used in melee.
4) the use of Old Frontiers increases the open field action as opposed to inside keep fighting, where archers were better protected.
5) the removal of the physical defense RA from archers (even though it is in a reduced potency here on Phoenix anyway) takes away one tool archers used to use to counter the higher growth rates of assassin melee attacks and their envenom skill.
6) and of course giving everyone MOS for free and including baked in superior stealth detection for assassins. This means one less RA that assassins need to spend points on (freeing them up for a get out of jail free card in Vanish, or more damage increasing RAs) and making sure no archer could have sacrificed other RAs to buy higher MOS than assassins to allow an advantage in detection (and thus engagement).

Mon 4 Feb 2019 1:13 PM by randomeclipse

My conclusion from these discussions is that I was a total wally for rolling a Ranger

.

The lure of classic archery was just too damn strong.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 5:43 PM by Zansobar

randomeclipse wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 1:13 PM
My conclusion from these discussions is that I was a total wally for rolling a Ranger .

The lure of classic archery was just too damn strong.

You aren't the only one...I did the same thing...classic archery was the most enjoyable system I've experienced in an MMO...sadly this is not classic archery. I regret making a ranger my first character every day now.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 5:54 PM by Nebu

I'm seeing similar results on my hunter. Archery just doesn't do enough to help finish targets after they close.

Did the devs intend for archers to be a leaching/siege class only? I'm starting to think that my class will really only start to feel effective after I have purge 2 and IP 3.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 1:04 PM by randomeclipse

I'd be interested to get the view of the staff as to how they see/envisaged the role of archery classes on Phoenix.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:12 AM by Snoogy

All I want is camouflage for my ranger 🙁 and for albs and mids to stop stealth zerging.

-Propagandhi

Mon 11 Feb 2019 1:23 PM by LordUberBiggie

so it says on the wiki that the 125 and 250 are when your skill is at 50. Does anything know how it scales as you are leveling? Example I have a mini that has 25 stealth? Also I assume it has to be a hard skill and not with bonus?

Thanks