Left Axe - Damage current status

Hi guys,

So I am posting a huge issue that every Zerk/SB have at the moment is the offhand DPS.

I ran a test:

I tested my initial template on the dummy: 44CS - 39AXE - 18LA

I was doing 98 mainhand 23 offhand.

Then I respec for: 39LA 36 AXE 34CS

I was doing 96 mainhand 28 offhand

My question is simple:

How can it be possible to use so many point in LA and have a such a small offhand damage increase?

At the moment SB are suffering of that due to the lack of offhand DPS. All my enemy are hitting way higher than use with offhand, in some case I am talking about more that I am talking about 100% dmg more.

I would like to understand why the DPS is so low for us and not for them? I never hit above 45 dmg with my offhand never ever. I spoke with top tier SB at the moment they all respe full CS as LA were way too nerf.

Just would like to understand how does it work for us? for them and why?

Thanks.

Mon 28 Jan 2019 7:48 PM by Dimir

The devs are just going to ask you for more information, so better provide it now:

1) Are those unstyled attacks?
2) If no, what style(s) are you using for each?
3) What are the speed of both weapons? (assuming both weapons are 16.5dps and 99qua or higher)

Mon 28 Jan 2019 7:57 PM by DinoTriz

I knew it!

I posted a thread about this the other day.

I respecced my SB out of LA and noticed zero difference between that and full LA.

Mon 28 Jan 2019 8:07 PM by Spewy

Dimir wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Jan 2019 7:48 PM
The devs are just going to ask you for more information, so better provide it now:

1) Are those unstyled attacks?
2) If no, what style(s) are you using for each?
3) What are the speed of both weapons? (assuming both weapons are 16.5dps and 99qua or higher)

1) Garrot & Double forst both case the offhand is capped dmg (only the mainhand dmg here) both Style are not effecting in anycase the offhand.

3) Main hand 100% / offhand 99%

But my point is here that so far there is absoluty no point to have point in LA as it does not effect our DPS at all and we are wasting point. When went from 18 to 39 LA i Was expecting to have much more high dps but nothing change. I am hitting a NS at 30-33 with my offhand. I never had such a low dps with my offhand.

I am quite worried to be honest

Mon 28 Jan 2019 8:13 PM by Spewy

As I said, style or not style the LA offhand dps is capped both case the DPS is the same.

https://imgur.com/a/0JlYS52

Mon 28 Jan 2019 8:15 PM by Spewy

I am raising this issue because as I said I talked with other SB and we all say that LA is broken at the moment we are really hope for a fix.

Thanks for your time anyway

Tue 29 Jan 2019 8:39 AM by Thinal

During i50, I did some extensive testing of shadowblades for double-wield same weapons versus a 2H axe, all with garrote. I had left-hand damage range from 23 to 42 in that test.

Don't forget that LA and sword/axe skills are not independent. Both affect damage from both hands, just to differing degrees. As styled damage is a multiple of right hand damage, that means that right hand damage is affected by all three specs.

I just finished some ranger CD tests and can spend a little more time on my Midgard rogues, but my earlier tests did suggest that speccing for full 2H axe for a shadowblade (35 stealth / envenom, 43 axe, 47 CS, no LA, using Garrote) was giving more DPS than any configuration I'd tried for LA. Those tests weren't conclusive though, because I hadn't tested every reasonable combination of LA / CS / Axe, I wasn't getting any haste effect as my double weapons were the same in each hand, and I had noticed that quickness (particularly between Norsemen and Valkyns) had an effect on the rankings -- for example, the Valkyn +15qui did better with 47 axe, 43 CS and the Norseman +10qui did better 43 axe, 47 CS.

For the Norseman, the two best specs I found, which came to just a hair under 2H damage (so should top with LA haste?), were both 36 axe, with LA 34 / CS 39 or LA 28 / CS 44. Neither would get Frosty Gaze, so you'd want to use Midnight Sun for an after-evade stun. The first would get Doublefrost and the second would get Rib Separation.

Tue 29 Jan 2019 10:51 AM by Spewy

Ok so basically you were saying that its almost better to have 0 LA point that have 39.

To be honest I wanted to have 39 to have the evade/stun but I never tried with the Axe evade stun which I will try from now.

Let see how it goes

Tue 29 Jan 2019 2:56 PM by Prymer

Shouldn't we be trying to get this issue sorted, if it is an issue, rather than trying to shoehorn specs that seem to work better on Phoenix?

High LA shouldn't be something to be avoided. You should be rewarded for going high just like alb and hib.

Tue 29 Jan 2019 6:33 PM by Calconious

Glad more noticed this as well. I tried out CS spec for the first time at level 30 (was full LA spec till then) and there was almost no difference in the off hand dmg between 30 LA and 0 LA. I just assumed LA was much more nerfed down here then it currently is on live, where I am used to playing a shadowblade.

42 now.. may give it a switch back and see if anything changed in 10 levels.

Tue 29 Jan 2019 8:51 PM by Thinal

Prymer wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jan 2019 2:56 PM
Shouldn't we be trying to get this issue sorted, if it is an issue, rather than trying to shoehorn specs that seem to work better on Phoenix?

High LA shouldn't be something to be avoided. You should be rewarded for going high just like alb and hib.

If that was directed at me, then I'm not offended, but it wasn't the point of my post. I did see a substantial difference in offhand damage with LA skill during my tests, which was my point, and to illustrate how the OP's numbers could be feasible, as the LA / weapon / CS skills are very intertwined on a Shadowblade and it's hard to isolate the effects of just one.

Also, if LA is truly doing nothing now, then we have a baseline to a recent period where it did have an effect, so one could troubleshoot just changes that came later i50 through now.

I would prefer to see LA be beneficial and to produce better damage than 2H. I think it can, but just marginally right now and only with LA haste effect factored in, or I just haven't found the golden combination yet. In the meantime, I would definitely level a noob SB solely on 2H axe, envenom, and CS for many levels, and use double-wields only to apply poisons.

Tue 29 Jan 2019 11:10 PM by Prymer

Thinal wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jan 2019 8:51 PM
Prymer wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jan 2019 2:56 PM
Shouldn't we be trying to get this issue sorted, if it is an issue, rather than trying to shoehorn specs that seem to work better on Phoenix?

High LA shouldn't be something to be avoided. You should be rewarded for going high just like alb and hib.

If that was directed at me, then I'm not offended, but it wasn't the point of my post. I did see a substantial difference in offhand damage with LA skill during my tests, which was my point, and to illustrate how the OP's numbers could be feasible, as the LA / weapon / CS skills are very intertwined on a Shadowblade and it's hard to isolate the effects of just one.

Also, if LA is truly doing nothing now, then we have a baseline to a recent period where it did have an effect, so one could troubleshoot just changes that came later i50 through now.

I would prefer to see LA be beneficial and to produce better damage than 2H. I think it can, but just marginally right now and only with LA haste effect factored in, or I just haven't found the golden combination yet. In the meantime, I would definitely level a noob SB solely on 2H axe, envenom, and CS for many levels, and use double-wields only to apply poisons.

Not directed at you in particular, just dislike the fact that levelling as 2h axe is the best way to get dps. I'm not as invested in Phoenix as I was other private servers, parsing dmg etc, but once 50 I'll likely start looking at it.

I wonder how berserkers are finding this too. My point stands that specing your offhand skill should reward you in terms of higher growth rates and better dps.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 12:07 AM by

gruenesschaf

Posting absolute damage numbers without weapon speeds is quite pointless. We're using the old LA scaling and new LA starting points, MH starts out at 77.33% damage and OH at 52%. And it looks like speccing as much LA as you did increased offhand damage by 20% which would be going from 60ish% to around 70ish% which is what that amount of spec points does.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 5:53 AM by Kwall0311

Dont let any of these damage numbers and percentages fool you. Its simpally not worth it to spec LA anymore. Take sword or axe to 39 (for evade stun) and run comp 50 Env/Stelath and depending on rr, 39 CS, or 44 CS, then the rest in LA.

If you dont believe it, i promise you, you will lose every fight. Im willing to bet on it. Prove me wrong.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 9:47 AM by Spewy

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Jan 2019 5:53 AM
Dont let any of these damage numbers and percentages fool you. Its simpally not worth it to spec LA anymore. Take sword or axe to 39 (for evade stun) and run comp 50 Env/Stelath and depending on rr, 39 CS, or 44 CS, then the rest in LA.

If you dont believe it, i promise you, you will lose every fight. Im willing to bet on it. Prove me wrong.

I totally agree mate, LA is a waste of point, something is broken that GM simply dont want to see.

We can see as well the population of SVG vs ZERKER. Anyway until something change we are pretty fucked tbh.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 10:48 AM by Prymer

Spewy wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Jan 2019 9:47 AM
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Jan 2019 5:53 AM
Dont let any of these damage numbers and percentages fool you. Its simpally not worth it to spec LA anymore. Take sword or axe to 39 (for evade stun) and run comp 50 Env/Stelath and depending on rr, 39 CS, or 44 CS, then the rest in LA.

If you dont believe it, i promise you, you will lose every fight. Im willing to bet on it. Prove me wrong.

I totally agree mate, LA is a waste of point, something is broken that GM simply dont want to see.

We can see as well the population of SVG vs ZERKER. Anyway until something change we are pretty fucked tbh.

Just have to assume they'll eventually notice no LA spec sb's and use that as evidence of an issue.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 3:42 AM by Thinal

Okay, my shadowblade is just level 21 and not in a position for extensive tests. Here are some quick and dirty tests, and they are NOT promising.

To equalize things, I bought some nasty 85% unenchanted weapons: 2 x fine alloy hand axes (7.5 dps, 2.4 speed), 1 fine alloy great sword (7.2 dps, 5.4 speed). I hit the master trainer for some respecs, took off all +weapon +LA effects, and hit some dummies unstyled.

With 1 axe, 1 LA: Right hand 7, left hand 5.
With 21-23 axe, 1 LA: Right hand 11 (-1), left hand 5.
With 1 axe, 21 LA: right hand 8, left hand 8.
With 21 axe, 21 LA: Right hand 12 (-1), left hand 8.

For one thing, I was under the impression that mainhand weapon skill affected offhand damage, and this appears to not be the case. With a swing of 20 spec points in manhand skill, offhand damage wasn't affected at all. I'm pretty sure in Hibbieland that my blades skill affected my offhand damage, though I'll have to confirm that after a realm timer.

Looking at my earlier SB tests, the offhand damage is almost perfectly linear with LA skill alone, with a couple of very minor variations by a single point in damage that could have other causes.

For another thing and far more of an issue, I tried the great sword at 21 sword spec for 43 (-5) damage.

Which means that at this level, 12+1 + 8 = 21 total double-wield damage / 2.4 speed = 8.75 dps, and 43+5 = 48 total 2H damage / 5.4 speed = 8.889 dps.

My slightly-lower base dps (7.2 2H, 7.5 singles) with a single spec line is doing more UNSTYLED effective DPS than twice the spec points into two spec lines.

And since these are UNSTYLED, the difference is going to be even greater with styled damage. The style is a +multiple of the right-hand weapon, so the whole 8.889 will be multiplied against it, whereas the axe-LA combo will only have the mainhand portion multiplied against the style bonus..

Here's a final test:
1H axe NOTHING IN OFFHAND, 21 axe: 15 (-1)
That's 93.75% (15/16) of the double-wield damage with ZERO investment into LA simply by removing a weapon from the left hand.

...

I'm thinking it's time to delete this mess and go back to Hibernia, and not bother to wait for the realm timer.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:01 AM by inoeth

Dud you seem not to have a single clue about how LA mechanic works.
Mh spec does not effect la dmg at all!
But la spec is effecting mh dmg.
With zero skill in la your mh dmg is 77% and offhand dmg is 53% .
As soon as you remove the la and only hit with 1h your dmg is 100% but you dont benefit from la haste.
Look at:
https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/la-damage

Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:22 AM by Geomorian

If left axe is not working correctly, why not take weapon to 50 for higher WS?

Would this be viable? (For rr3):

Stealth 37
Envenom 37
Sword 50
Cs 34
Left axe 10

Or is ragnarok not worth using?

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:24 AM by Prymer

Geomorian wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:22 AM
If left axe is not working correctly, why not take weapon to 50 for higher WS?

Because you shouldn't have to accommodate a broken skill, if it is broken.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:53 AM by Spewy

Thinal wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 3:42 AM
Okay, my shadowblade is just level 21 and not in a position for extensive tests. Here are some quick and dirty tests, and they are NOT promising.

To equalize things, I bought some nasty 85% unenchanted weapons: 2 x fine alloy hand axes (7.5 dps, 2.4 speed), 1 fine alloy great sword (7.2 dps, 5.4 speed). I hit the master trainer for some respecs, took off all +weapon +LA effects, and hit some dummies unstyled.

With 1 axe, 1 LA: Right hand 7, left hand 5.
With 21-23 axe, 1 LA: Right hand 11 (-1), left hand 5.
With 1 axe, 21 LA: right hand 8, left hand 8.
With 21 axe, 21 LA: Right hand 12 (-1), left hand 8.

For one thing, I was under the impression that mainhand weapon skill affected offhand damage, and this appears to not be the case. With a swing of 20 spec points in manhand skill, offhand damage wasn't affected at all. I'm pretty sure in Hibbieland that my blades skill affected my offhand damage, though I'll have to confirm that after a realm timer.

Looking at my earlier SB tests, the offhand damage is almost perfectly linear with LA skill alone, with a couple of very minor variations by a single point in damage that could have other causes.

For another thing and far more of an issue, I tried the great sword at 21 sword spec for 43 (-5) damage.

Which means that at this level, 12+1 + 8 = 21 total double-wield damage / 2.4 speed = 8.75 dps, and 43+5 = 48 total 2H damage / 5.4 speed = 8.889 dps.

My slightly-lower base dps (7.2 2H, 7.5 singles) with a single spec line is doing more UNSTYLED effective DPS than twice the spec points into two spec lines.

And since these are UNSTYLED, the difference is going to be even greater with styled damage. The style is a +multiple of the right-hand weapon, so the whole 8.889 will be multiplied against it, whereas the axe-LA combo will only have the mainhand portion multiplied against the style bonus..

Here's a final test:
1H axe NOTHING IN OFFHAND, 21 axe: 15 (-1)
That's 93.75% (15/16) of the double-wield damage with ZERO investment into LA simply by removing a weapon from the left hand.

...

I'm thinking it's time to delete this mess and go back to Hibernia, and not bother to wait for the realm timer.

@GM any thoughts regarding our LA skills? Any plans to figure it out how can fix LA as at the moment its a pretty big issue.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 12:36 PM by

gruenesschaf

It's working exactly as expected.

In Mid LA is also the base weapon spec for the offhand. Equipping a LA reduces your MH base damage to 77.33% and the offhand damage to 52% and like with the old formula where both weapons start at 62.5% each spec point increases both hands by 0.34%. The la penalty / bonus only affects base damage but not style damage.

With 270 str and 52 comp spec in weapon and la against the 26% resist 27% absorb dummy, DPS numbers are just the after resist values / base weapon speed, that's not the actual dps but usable for a comparison:

MH only, no offhand, 3.4 speed: 63(-22) -> 18.5 dps
MH and LA, 3.4 speed both: 59(-20), 43(-15) -> 30 dps
2h 5.0 speed: 133(-46) -> 26.6 dps

With styles, draw out:
MH only, no offhand, 3.4 speed: 90(-31) -> 26.47 dps
MH and LA, 3.4 speed both: 86(-30), 43(-15) -> 37.94 dps
2h 5.0 speed: 173(-60) -> 34.6 dps

With only 1+11 LA spec:
Unstyled: MH and LA, 3.4 speed both: 51(-17), 25(-8) -> 22.35 dps
Draw Out: MH and LA, 3.4 speed both: 78(-27), 25(-8) -> 30.29 dps

And that's ignoring haste effect due to same weapon speeds.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 2:06 PM by Lev

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 12:36 PM
Equipping a LA reduces your MH base damage to 77.33% and the offhand damage to 52% and like with the old formula where both weapons start at 62.5% each spec point increases both hands by 0.34%. The la penalty / bonus only affects base damage but not style damage.

With only 1+11 LA spec:
Unstyled: MH and LA, 3.4 speed both: 51(-17), 25(-8) -> 22.35 dps

that post cleared a lot of questions, but i still don't understand something:

has mainhand other factors (like axe skill)?
or is this a snapshot (with variance) or an average?

in this example the MH hits for 51 which is more than double the OH. yet the calculation above would mean that at 12 LA the values would be 81.41% MH and 56.08% OH damage, which isn't even near double MH damage (compared to OH). in this case with MH 51 dmg and same weapons, the offhand should do 35 dmg.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 2:26 PM by Ashenspire

Yes, your main hand skill will increase the damage above the projected LA penalty compared to the offhand.

You can see it in the test where the guy used the fine alloy axes.

7/5 with 1/1
11/5 with 21/1
8/8 with 1/21
12/8 with 21/21

They have independent weaponskills, and both LA and mainhand skills act as multipliers for the main hand whereas only la effects the oh

Thu 31 Jan 2019 2:59 PM by

gruenesschaf

Alb / Hib with CD / DW (usually) spec a single weapon type, ie slash / blades or pierce / thrust or blunt / crush and usually use the same weapon type in their offhand, for them the base weapon skill (slash, thrust, crush) changes the weapon damage accordingly, just like in a normal 1h or 2h case. For Mid LA acts as this base weapon spec for the offhand, 1+11 LA you're at around 110ish% instead of 150% at enemy level + 2 from that alone and of that only 55ish% due to la mechanic

Thu 31 Jan 2019 3:17 PM by Thinal

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 12:36 PM
With 270 str and 52 comp spec in weapon and la ...

MH only, no offhand, 3.4 speed: 63(-22) -> 18.5 dps
MH and LA, 3.4 speed both: 59(-20), 43(-15) -> 30 dps
2h 5.0 speed: 133(-46) -> 26.6 dps

With styles, draw out:
MH only, no offhand, 3.4 speed: 90(-31) -> 26.47 dps
MH and LA, 3.4 speed both: 86(-30), 43(-15) -> 37.94 dps
2h 5.0 speed: 173(-60) -> 34.6 dps

gruenesschaf, thank you very much for these numbers. They line up well against my level 21 test and show that while my test showed 2H dps slightly higher at 21 MH+LA, MH+LA will be a bit higher at composite 52.

This is still troubling, however, in that it shows 2H with 91.2% DPS of MH+LA in a spec optimized for MH+LA. 52 composite at RR5 is 37+15; how about cranking weapon spec to 50+15, getting more style bonus and large weapon spec bonus, and pocketing the change of 130 spec points to be used elsewhere? Is that still going to be less than MH+LA?

I don't have that test, because my earlier 2H vs MH+LA was concentrated on Shadowblades. I was using Garrote, and I was varying all of axe, LA, and CS skills, holding only stealth and envenom steady at 35+15. While my 36 axe / 34 LA test was one of my high placers, it was still a bit less than 2H with 43 weapon / 47 CS, and also scored slightly less than specs with slightly less LA, slightly more CS.

EDIT: I took another look at my log, and 36 axe / 34 LA / 39 CS *tied* with a test for 36 axe / 28 LA / 44 CS, and was not lower. Both tests were still just a hair under the 43 axe / 47 CS test, though.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 3:22 PM by Thinal

Lev wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 2:06 PM
or is this a snapshot (with variance) or an average?

During beta, devs normalized melee damage to always hit at the average of its range. Hit a test dummy a few times and you'll get the same damage each combat round. (Assuming other factors aren't in play like debuffs, multiple attacker bonus [which I think procs still trigger].)

Interestingly, that doesn't hold for damage adds. My ranger tests took quite a few swings to deduce the range of the bonus, even though the base damages held steady.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:35 PM by Ashenspire

Thinal wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 3:17 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 12:36 PM
With 270 str and 52 comp spec in weapon and la ...

MH only, no offhand, 3.4 speed: 63(-22) -> 18.5 dps
MH and LA, 3.4 speed both: 59(-20), 43(-15) -> 30 dps
2h 5.0 speed: 133(-46) -> 26.6 dps

With styles, draw out:
MH only, no offhand, 3.4 speed: 90(-31) -> 26.47 dps
MH and LA, 3.4 speed both: 86(-30), 43(-15) -> 37.94 dps
2h 5.0 speed: 173(-60) -> 34.6 dps

gruenesschaf, thank you very much for these numbers. They line up well against my level 21 test and show that while my test showed 2H dps slightly higher at 21 MH+LA, MH+LA will be a bit higher at composite 52.

This is still troubling, however, in that it shows 2H with 91.2% DPS of MH+LA in a spec optimized for MH+LA. 52 composite at RR5 is 37+15; how about cranking weapon spec to 50+15, getting more style bonus and large weapon spec bonus, and pocketing the change of 130 spec points to be used elsewhere? Is that still going to be less than MH+LA?

I don't have that test, because my earlier 2H vs MH+LA was concentrated on Shadowblades. I was using Garrote, and I was varying all of axe, LA, and CS skills, holding only stealth and envenom steady at 35+15. While my 36 axe / 34 LA test was one of my high placers, it was still a bit less than 2H with 43 weapon / 47 CS, and also scored slightly less than specs with slightly less LA, slightly more CS.

EDIT: I took another look at my log, and 36 axe / 34 LA / 39 CS *tied* with a test for 36 axe / 28 LA / 44 CS, and was not lower. Both tests were still just a hair under the 43 axe / 47 CS test, though.

2h might be close in unstyled damage, but will fall further behind when you add styles and extra poison on the offhand.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:51 PM by Fjordin

So where does that leave people who want to play LA? If it's working as intended, and is kind of underwhelming, is it worth playing Zerk/SB?

Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:53 PM by Ashenspire

It's working as intended and not underwhelming at all. There's a lot of people that don't understand the mechanical differences between LA and CDW complaining about things they don't understand.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 6:32 PM by inoeth

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:53 PM
It's working as intended and not underwhelming at all. There's a lot of people that don't understand the mechanical differences between LA and CDW complaining about things they don't understand.

this^^

Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:47 PM by Cadebrennus

More info in how LA and DW/CD scale in relation to each other and to spec:

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/la_cd_dw_mechanics.html

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:11 PM by Ashenspire

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:47 PM
More info in how LA and DW/CD scale in relation to each other and to spec:

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/la_cd_dw_mechanics.html

These are the old numbers. The gist is still the same, but it's not 62.5% for both weapons with LA.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:25 PM by Cadebrennus

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:11 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:47 PM
More info in how LA and DW/CD scale in relation to each other and to spec:

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/la_cd_dw_mechanics.html

These are the old numbers. The gist is still the same, but it's not 62.5% for both weapons with LA.

Ya it's more like 69% at 50+15 for LA and CD/DW but the scaling is correct

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:30 PM by Ashenspire

MH is 77.33% + (.0034 x LA)
OH is 52% + (.0034 x LA)

MH is also modified by weapon line skill and has its own multiplier.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 3:04 PM by Thinal

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:35 PM
2h might be close in unstyled damage, but will fall further behind when you add styles and extra poison on the offhand.

The opposite is true for the first point. 2H pulls *further* ahead with styles. You don't have to take my long, thoughtful, and well-reasoned explanation for it; simply look at gruenesschaf's post. In his unstyled numbers, 2H was 88.67% of the DPS of MH+LA. In his styled numbers, 2H was 91.2% of the DPS of MH+LA, so it did comparatively better, not worse, with styles.

For the second, where one benefits from a second poison, one can hotkey in fast MH+LA weapons for a combat round. Or simply keep swapping 2Hs throughout the fight, which most of us were doing anyhow.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 4:05 PM by DinoTriz

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:47 PM
More info in how LA and DW/CD scale in relation to each other and to spec:

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/la_cd_dw_mechanics.html

Is he saying it's better to use fast LA weapons in the offhand?

I was always told to use a slow offhand weapon.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 4:11 PM by Ashenspire

Slow offhand is good if you're going to go under the 1.5 speed swing cap after quickness and haste with a fast off hand. This is typically best for berserkers who aren't usually fighting targets that will ASR them back.

Fast offhand is good if you're not under the 1.5 speed swing cap. These are good for shadowblades who are typically fighting targets that will hit them with ASR through styles or poisons.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 4:21 PM by Ashenspire

Thinal wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 3:04 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:35 PM
2h might be close in unstyled damage, but will fall further behind when you add styles and extra poison on the offhand.

The opposite is true for the first point. 2H pulls *further* ahead with styles. You don't have to take my long, thoughtful, and well-reasoned explanation for it; simply look at gruenesschaf's post. In his unstyled numbers, 2H was 88.67% of the DPS of MH+LA. In his styled numbers, 2H was 91.2% of the DPS of MH+LA, so it did comparatively better, not worse, with styles.

For the second, where one benefits from a second poison, one can hotkey in fast MH+LA weapons for a combat round. Or simply keep swapping 2Hs throughout the fight, which most of us were doing anyhow.

My point was when you combine the two things, the gap grows in LAs favor. Not individually.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 6:11 PM by Cadebrennus

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 4:05 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:47 PM
More info in how LA and DW/CD scale in relation to each other and to spec:

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/la_cd_dw_mechanics.html

Is he saying it's better to use fast LA weapons in the offhand?

I was always told to use a slow offhand weapon.

I'm not an expert in LA mechanics but the fast offhand in Mid definitely seems superior to the slow offhand in Mid. This is because the haste effect works 100% of the time. In addition because of how the proc mechanics work you can artificially get more procs out of a MH weapon. This is because proc rate is inversely tied to a weapon's speed so that over time, all proc rates match up. A slower weapon will have a higher proc rate than a faster weapon. If you artificially lower a weapon's swing speed (in reality, it's speed delay) you are going to get more procs out of the weapon. Confirmed on live using a 5.5 speed bow with the new "magic Archery" system.

For DW/CD the opposite is true. Due to how those mechanics work you won't see a benefit to a fast offhand until you get somewhere above 20 swings (latter part about the swings was calculated by someone else but I trust them.)

Fri 1 Feb 2019 7:11 PM by Thinal

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 4:21 PM
My point was when you combine the two things, the gap grows in LAs favor. Not individually.

When one is moving you *further away* from the goal, it's hard to argue that it's doing a "good" thing.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 7:19 PM by Ashenspire

Except they both work in conjunction so you look at the two points together. In order to get the benefit of the off hand poison, you are using styles while using LA. Because of how LA mechanics work, 2h and growth rates that don't scale infinitely 2h doesn't catch up.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:39 PM by Thinal

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 7:19 PM
Because of how LA mechanics work, 2h and growth rates that don't scale infinitely 2h doesn't catch up.

I'm trying really, really hard to understand this sentence, and what you're saying in general. I feel that you're wrong, but your basic point eludes me, and I don't want to dismiss you if you have a point but just really, REALLY fall short of being able to explain yourself.

My own i50 SB tests were in varying the points left over after after 35 base stealth and envenom to Axe, LA, and CS, then hitting with Garrote. I did not get the time to try every reasonable combination, but of the 10 or so I did try, MH+LA didn't ever quite catch up to 2H with full axe / CS spec, no LA. In actual RvR, I had good success (and mind you I'm not a skilled player) by using MH+LA for the opening perf + poisons, then switching to 2H for following rounds. (This is the direct opposite of the typical approach.) I kept a few sets on /switch for purges; by using as fast as possible MH+LA, I simply burn the round as quickly as possible to apply poisons.

Given that these were *styled* tests and *styled* RvR play, they certainly seem to contradict your point. And I say "seem to" because, as I said, I don't know what you're trying to say.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 3:48 AM by Tiberian1986

So with that patch what exactly changed

? The left weapon does per skillpoint little bit more dmg?

And what is dmgcap of the offhand? 52 la spec or increases even 50+20 the dmg?