Warden 2 Hand in the Future - Phoenix Freeshard

Once class balancing starts I would like to see Wardens get access to Celtic Spear and / or LW.

First of all I think Wardens right now when spec'd melee can be decent, and are just fine when group spec'd. But Wardens are balanced around having their base buffs vs melee classes that do not. Down the road once people started using buff bots and potions Wardens fell behind in balance and were given shield spec option along with more spec points. I feel that that was the wrong approach. While on phoenix there is no buff bots the normal is to run potions and with potions being a little over half the strength of base line buffs the Warden again starts to lose that balance they get from them. When you look at the base 5% block chance with the shield that can't be spec'd in that is kinda a waste. Now if they were given the option to use LW or CS not only would they be doing more damage but the big factor no one thinks about is that they would be getting that 2hand Parry bonus. While losing 5% block they would be gaining 10% to 20% Parry with most specs. This would put them much more on par with how Friars can handle them selves while also being a group support class like Friars

Personally I think it would be cool to see a 2nd class get to use Celtic Spear as well.

Wed 30 Jan 2019 5:01 PM by Bradekes

I would like to see this. They are the only class that is stuck without shield spec whose only form of damage is melee damage and do not have a 2hand option. I'd like dual wield too but that would require extra spec points needed. On top of these issues they are on the worst melee damage table.

I'd prefer to see spear option.. Not enough spear in this game

Wed 30 Jan 2019 11:11 PM by The Skies Asunder

I would love to see Warden get the extra spec points, and shield spec more than anything on this server. Warden was my favorite class on Live, and the state they are in currently is probably my biggest complaint (one of very few though) with the entire server. I am in support of them receiving Celtic Spear as an alternative though. I realize they were in a better spot than most other hybrids before the custom changes, but it's a shame they didn't receive any love like Paladin, Thane, or Friar.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 1:43 AM by teiloh

Wardens are already a strong support class, but a new line wouldn't make them much stronger, just provide more options.

Would be cool if they had a viable Archery spec with their short bow, for medium range combat and peels

Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:47 AM by Takii

Care to elaborate why you think giving them shield spec and more points was the wrong approach? They are a support class, giving them shield makes way more sense than spear or LW (guard, better peels, better defense).

Wardens don't hop on the tank train in a group so I'm not sure why having spear would be useful.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 7:32 AM by inoeth

you get a parry bonus with 2h weapon? first time i hear that

Thu 31 Jan 2019 11:29 AM by Bradekes

Takii wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:47 AM
Wardens don't hop on the tank train in a group so I'm not sure why having spear would be useful.

Shield spec is better, but then they need more spec points. If tgey don't add more spec points then spear is better than 1h nonspec shield, atleast they could do decent damage PVE or solo rvr. I would still recommend support spec for higher level gameplay but it gives some options when wardens don't have any ATM

Thu 31 Jan 2019 2:26 PM by Festers

While they're there they could give shammies access to LA as well

Thu 31 Jan 2019 2:45 PM by inoeth

Festers wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 2:26 PM
While they're there they could give shammies access to LA as well

and insta lifetap

Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:09 PM by Pirhana7

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 7:32 AM
you get a parry bonus with 2h weapon? first time i hear that

The base parry skill chance is 5%
While using 1 hand or duel wield weapons every + point into Parry is .5% chance
While using a 2hand weapon every + point into Parry is 1% chance

This is why Friars and Vale Walkers parry so much

Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:19 PM by Pirhana7

Takii wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:47 AM
Care to elaborate why you think giving them shield spec and more points was the wrong approach? They are a support class, giving them shield makes way more sense than spear or LW (guard, better peels, better defense).

Wardens don't hop on the tank train in a group so I'm not sure why having spear would be useful.

First, they would have the same options as a Friar which is also a Support class and counter part, they get to choose between 1hand / no spec shield or a 2hand weapon.
Adding shield spec is another line you need to spend spec points in. Compared to adding CS or LW that would allow you to have the same spec points in your weapon or go higher or so you could spend more points in other skills. Being able to spend more points is Parry while wielding a 2hand weapon gives you double the parry chance compared to 1hand weapon and is more efficient considering you are doing 2 hand damage now with a much higher chance to parry. The only downside is Parry does not block arrows or more than 2 attackers. if a Warden was doing 2hand damage they would be just like a friar and right there with the assist train. CS also has a rear style snare that would help.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:31 PM by Pirhana7

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 11:29 AM
Takii wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:47 AM
Wardens don't hop on the tank train in a group so I'm not sure why having spear would be useful.

Shield spec is better, but then they need more spec points. If tgey don't add more spec points then spear is better than 1h nonspec shield, atleast they could do decent damage PVE or solo rvr. I would still recommend support spec for higher level gameplay but it gives some options when wardens don't have any ATM

I would have to disagree, I would much more prefere my Wrden doing more damage like a Friar does. And the kicker is they would be Parrying a lot more to because of the +1% chance per a point spent in Parry with 2hand weapon instead of only .5% chance with 1 hand. Even if they got more spec points. Tat way I could go higher in weapon and Parry. The only downside is parry doesn't block arrows and work on multiple attackers. Speccing a shield is only worth it if you have the points to spec high parry as well, like a Hero can do, other wise that 2hand parry skill will let you parry just as much as a shield spec with low parry would block and parry combined.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:33 PM by Bradekes

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:19 PM
if a Warden was doing 2hand damage they would be just like a friar and right there with the assist train. CS also has a rear style snare that would help.

You have to remember friars are on a much higher damage table than warden on this server. That's the only reason this would be balanced. Wardens get a bit more in combat utility than friar and CSpear would totally fit the warden class IMO too.. If they added shield you'd just see blockbot warden everwhere which is boring

Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:55 PM by Pirhana7

Festers wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 2:26 PM
While they're there they could give shammies access to LA as well

Um.. Shammies are not a Fighter Healer hybrid like Wardens and Friars... Shammies don't have weapon spec or Parry. Shammies, Healers, and Clerics are healer and magic damage users and no point being part of this conversation. This is about giving Wardens more options to be more on par with their Friar counterparts who do use 2hand.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:00 PM by chryso

So friars will get pbt now? Sweet!

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:09 PM by Bradekes

chryso wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:00 PM
So friars will get pbt now? Sweet!

Friars are on 2.1 damage factor on this server.
Warden are on 1.8 damage factor.
Friar get dex/qui buff on dex based weapon.
Warden only gets base buff.
Friar gets Evade 5
Warden gets PBT
This is fair.. Stop talking if you're not providing facts

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:22 PM by chryso

You have provided no facts which prove this is fair. You are just whining that you want a buff.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:30 PM by Cadebrennus

The Drunken Ranger approves

Thu 31 Jan 2019 11:18 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 7:32 AM
you get a parry bonus with 2h weapon? first time i hear that

As far as I know there is absolutely no bonus to parry with a 2h vs a 1h. The bonus came from a 2h cutting your enemies chance to parry in half. This is unless they have changed something on Phoenix. Also 2h also only provide 10% more damage compared to 1h.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 11:27 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:09 PM
chryso wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 9:00 PM
So friars will get pbt now? Sweet!

Friars are on 2.1 damage factor on this server.
Warden are on 1.8 damage factor.
Friar get dex/qui buff on dex based weapon.
Warden only gets base buff.
Friar gets Evade 5
Warden gets PBT
This is fair.. Stop talking if you're not providing facts

You also get a better end buff, a better end redux, speed, damage add, medium shield, and scale AF/absorb.

Friar and Warden are balanced, and the Warden does not need more melee DPS in particular. Nor does Celtic Spear fit Wardens.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 11:46 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 11:27 PM
You also get a better end buff, a better end redux, speed, damage add, medium shield, and scale AF/absorb.

Friar and Warden are balanced, and the Warden does not need more melee DPS in particular. Nor does Celtic Spear fit Wardens.

Well, let's break this down. You are acting like both of these classes get these things without having to spec, and like they are in the same respective skill trees.

Some HUGE differences:

Friar - End pulse, Fatigue Redux, ABS Buff(highest resulting in a total of 25% ABS), Are all in the same skill tree, Enhancements. This means you only have to spec a single tree, as a friar, to fully gain all of your self buffs. The only buff you lose from not speccing rejuv is Group Heal Proc. Gain base 25%+dex bonus evade chance.

Warden - End pulse, Fatigue Redux - Regrowth tree. Haste & Dmg add are from Nuture. So, yes endo redux is higher than friar, but it is in a different spec line, meaning wasted spec points that friars don't have to worry about. Meaning less spec points for weapon spec. Warden also has to train for their PBT which is a bubble that blocks 1 hit every 6seconds at 45 in Nuture. Meaning if you fight a enemy with 1.5 speed attack(fastest possible attack speed) you would only be blocking 16% of the attacks, if they are not dualwield which gains no dex bonus.

Example Specs:
Friar - 45Enhance, 39 staff, 28parry
Warden - 45 Nuture, 34 weap, 25 parry, 22 rejuv

This shows that, combat spec not saying it's optimum, to gain "equal endo redux" warden has to lose out on weapon skill and parry that the friar does not, also the friar is hitting harder with their 2.1 damage table vs the warden 1.8 damage table. Also the friar is hitting 10% harder with their 2h weapon, vs warden getting hit 5% less with his medium shield base. Friar is also benefiting from spec dex/qui that the warden is not. Now I understand that the warden PBT is group affecting, which does shift the balance a bit towards warden, it does not exclude all the other nerfs warden has vs the friar.

Also to note, warden attack speed is HASTE not CELERITY like healer from mid, so it doesn't really increase DPS, but it makes you attack faster. Look up the difference if you're curious.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 12:49 AM by Festers

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:55 PM
Festers wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 2:26 PM
While they're there they could give shammies access to LA as well

Um.. Shammies are not a Fighter Healer hybrid like Wardens and Friars... Shammies don't have weapon spec or Parry. Shammies, Healers, and Clerics are healer and magic damage users and no point being part of this conversation. This is about giving Wardens more options to be more on par with their Friar counterparts who do use 2hand.

I see that you completely missed that this was a joke.

Although it doesn't surprise me when the same person wants to completely redesign a class on what is supposed to be a classic daoc server.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 12:56 AM by Bradekes

Festers wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 12:49 AM
I see that you completely missed that this was a joke.

Although it doesn't surprise me when the same person wants to completely redesign a class on what is supposed to be a classic daoc server.

Then why not contribute a way to adjust wardens to be more on par with other classes than being a troll.. atleast this person is attempting at giving their opinion on how to accomplish this. Adding a new weapon spec is not completely redesigning the class.. but it really is completely subpar comparing to all the alb and mid buffs to classes. paladin, friar, thane all got good buffs. Though hib have animist right? so let's just forget about all the other classes that might make some of the animist players switch over to try a new class... I dunno just sayin.. be constructive not destructive

Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:33 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 11:46 PM
Example Specs:
Friar - 45Enhance, 39 staff, 28parry
Warden - 45 Nuture, 34 weap, 25 parry, 22 rejuviar.

Also to note, warden attack speed is HASTE not CELERITY like healer from mid, so it doesn't really increase DPS, but it makes you attack faster. Look up the difference if you're curious.

That Friar spec you listed adds nothing other than resists to a group on a realm where damage is already lacking. And the Warden haste isn't celerity, but it's still 38+ value, which is more than double standard haste. Likewise your End buff is at 2 spec.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:38 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 12:56 AM
Then why not contribute a way to adjust wardens to be more on par with other classes than being a troll.. atleast this person is attempting at giving their opinion on how to accomplish this. Adding a new weapon spec is not completely redesigning the class.. but it really is completely subpar comparing to all the alb and mid buffs to classes. paladin, friar, thane all got good buffs.

Wardens are already on par, they're just not a melee DPS.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:50 AM by The Skies Asunder

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:38 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 12:56 AM
Then why not contribute a way to adjust wardens to be more on par with other classes than being a troll.. atleast this person is attempting at giving their opinion on how to accomplish this. Adding a new weapon spec is not completely redesigning the class.. but it really is completely subpar comparing to all the alb and mid buffs to classes. paladin, friar, thane all got good buffs.

Wardens are already on par, they're just not a melee DPS.

They would still be the lowest DPS melee class even if Celtic Spear was added to them. The spec point increase and Shield line makes a lot more sense to me, since they are a defensive support class. Though anything to help them out I could probably get behind.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 3:11 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:38 AM
Wardens are already on par, they're just not a melee DPS.

Then why worry about them getting spear spec to make them more viable in melee? even if it is only helpful for PVE shoot...

Fri 1 Feb 2019 3:36 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 3:11 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:38 AM
Wardens are already on par, they're just not a melee DPS.
Then why worry about them getting spear spec to make them more viable in melee? even if it is only helpful for PVE shoot...

Just doesn't fit with the class or serve any particular need, and takes dev time

Fri 1 Feb 2019 3:39 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 3:36 AM
Just doesn't fit with the class or serve any particular need, and takes dev time

Seems that more disagree with you than agree with you on that one buddy

Fri 1 Feb 2019 4:40 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 3:39 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 3:36 AM
Just doesn't fit with the class or serve any particular need, and takes dev time
Seems that more disagree with you than agree with you on that one buddy

In this thread, maybe. In the general population? I highly doubt that.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:12 AM by inoeth

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:09 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 7:32 AM
you get a parry bonus with 2h weapon? first time i hear that
The base parry skill chance is 5%
While using 1 hand or duel wield weapons every + point into Parry is .5% chance
While using a 2hand weapon every + point into Parry is 1% chance

This is why Friars and Vale Walkers parry so much

Can you provide any source? I highly doubt that this is the case.
If vw and friars parey much it is because they spec high parry i gues.... At least thats what i would do if i played these classes....

Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:31 AM by Festers

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:12 AM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:09 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 7:32 AM
you get a parry bonus with 2h weapon? first time i hear that
The base parry skill chance is 5%
While using 1 hand or duel wield weapons every + point into Parry is .5% chance
While using a 2hand weapon every + point into Parry is 1% chance

This is why Friars and Vale Walkers parry so much

Can you provide any source? I highly doubt that this is the case.
If vw and friars parey much it is because they spec high parry i gues.... At least thats what i would do if i played these classes....

5% base chance, 0.5% increase per spec point, capped at 50%. There is definitely no bonus when you have a 2h equipped.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:21 AM by inoeth

Festers wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:31 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:12 AM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:09 PM
The base parry skill chance is 5%
While using 1 hand or duel wield weapons every + point into Parry is .5% chance
While using a 2hand weapon every + point into Parry is 1% chance

This is why Friars and Vale Walkers parry so much

Can you provide any source? I highly doubt that this is the case.
If vw and friars parey much it is because they spec high parry i gues.... At least thats what i would do if i played these classes....

5% base chance, 0.5% increase per spec point, capped at 50%. There is definitely no bonus when you have a 2h equipped.

yes thats my information too, thats why i ask for evidence for the 2h parry bonus... i doubt that there is one^^

Fri 1 Feb 2019 10:35 AM by Relidar

Not breaking down any numbers here, but the idea of giving Wardens more options than just being a pbt/interrupt bot sounds really exciting.

As a matter of fact, i wouldn't mind this on more classes that are underrepresented.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 10:44 AM by inoeth

imo giving them back the ability to spec moblock would be enough to pimp their solo viability
i played warden in the beta with 50 blunt spec and it was really awesome because noone expected a warden to land a 10 sec stun, where you could heal yourself
the downside of this spec is ofc that you only have the yellow bubble but you could compensate with high moparry and moblock.... this is not possible anymore due to nnf ra

Fri 1 Feb 2019 11:35 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:33 AM
That Friar spec you listed adds nothing other than resists to a group on a realm where damage is already lacking. And the Warden haste isn't celerity, but it's still 38+ value, which is more than double standard haste. Likewise your End buff is at 2 spec.

Your troll game is low... I'm bringing real information... All you bring is lies and bloated statements with no sustenance. If you don't understand how 38% haste would be pointless on a 1h then you're on something. Haste adds 0 dps and can actually hurt your dps if you are using too fast a weapon.

I'm a veteran to paper daoc and all the background info that runs this game... I have been reading on the mechanics of this game since I started playing on release. It's not hard to see the short comings in this game. Warden is a staple class that was a great tank/ support in the day. It's a very meek shadow of what it was... Also TOA gear helped warden a lot.. There is nothing bringing warden up to par here and it needs fixed.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 12:22 PM by Wasted_Content

1) Why not just give them shield spec?

2) If yer gonna update Warden for 2019 then please do the same to Friar

Fri 1 Feb 2019 12:35 PM by Bradekes

Wasted_Content wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 12:22 PM
2) If yer gonna update Warden for 2019 then please do the same to Friar

Friar got a buff already! They put them on a higher damage table. I haven't heard many complaints about friar... But if you think they need something start up a thread and see if others agree

Fri 1 Feb 2019 12:49 PM by Wasted_Content

They tried to give friars some love (the heal proc buff) but failed mostly because...well there are lots of reasons but the one I found to be the most damning was all the buffs also given to Cleric. So to utilize the "love" given to friars u either gotta go staff (no one wants this in 8man) or you gotta go full rejuv (which is better but also why not just be a Cleric?) PLUS the heal proc buff they gave is a self only cast offensive proc ....so you have to be hitting things with your staff for it to go off. 15% btw.

So they kinda made Friars already-decent-solo-game a little more decent? By like 15%

But as far as grouping and PvP stuff they really need...... healstyles

then they'll be great again.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 1:04 PM by Bradekes

Wasted_Content wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 12:49 PM
They tried to give friars some love (the heal proc buff) but failed mostly because...well there are lots of reasons but the one I found to be the most damning was all the buffs also given to Cleric. So to utilize the "love" given to friars u either gotta go staff (no one wants this in 8man) or you gotta go full rejuv (which is better but also why not just be a Cleric?) PLUS the heal proc buff they gave is a self only cast offensive proc ....so you have to be hitting things with your staff for it to go off. 15% btw.

So they kinda made Friars already-decent-solo-game a little more decent? By like 15% But as far as grouping and PvP stuff they really need...... healstyles then they'll be great again.

Well don't hijack this thread for friars.

and heal procs off styles would be extremely broken on this server. Friar heal proc heals the whole group though, they also get a group hot which is a huge heal that makes them unique. As far as enhancement spec they are mostly self buffers, it would be nice to see a singular unique group buff, but alb already has the best buffer in game, spec af buff + heal def proc on cleric is beastmode

Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:26 PM by moe_Jiller

Coming from a hib, this suggestion is a big NO to me.

Every Top 8vX group will be running a Warden. Not one will run friar. That alone shows their Spot in the Meta. Warden is fine as is. These changes would require HUGE balancing and custumozation in other realms too to keep it fair.

Not worth it imo.
(Also feels like, "ToA here we come", No thanks)

Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:37 PM by Bradekes

moe_Jiller wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 2:26 PM
Coming from a hib, this suggestion is a big NO to me.

Every Top 8vX group will be running a Warden. Not one will run friar. That alone shows their Spot in the Meta. Warden is fine as is. These changes would require HUGE balancing and custumozation in other realms too to keep it fair.

Not worth it imo.
(Also feels like, "ToA here we come", No thanks)

You're saying if warden get a 2h or celtic spear every 8man will run a warden? That's a huge claim my man... You're already stating no one wants friars who are already 2h wardens so why would this change anything? Wardens in rvr are for support spec... Melee is only backup as should be for friars in 8man setting.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:32 PM by Ebenezer

I'd rather see shield as well.
If you move the end redux buff to nurture, they can even manage without the extra skillpoints. (45nurt/20reg/42shield/10blades/6parry, among many other choices)
If you leave it in reg they need the 1.8

Then a melee warden would be viable, instead of just being a bad druid with pbt.

All the other stuff they got on live (hot chant, celerity, etc) ranges from unnecessary to overpowered, but shield they need.

And yes, friars probably need something as well.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:53 PM by PingGuy

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 10:44 AM
imo giving them back the ability to spec moblock would be enough to pimp their solo viability
i played warden in the beta with 50 blunt spec and it was really awesome because noone expected a warden to land a 10 sec stun, where you could heal yourself
the downside of this spec is ofc that you only have the yellow bubble but you could compensate with high moparry and moblock.... this is not possible anymore due to nnf ra

That makes me sad. I'm really trying to find a way to make a viable Warden with high Blunt spec. It doesn't seem to be possible.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:53 PM by Kaziera

i wonder why nobody mentioned the awesome sidesnare. must be a lot of skilled ppls around here.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 10:10 PM by Bradekes

Ebenezer wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:32 PM
I'd rather see shield as well.
If you move the end redux buff to nurture, they can even manage without the extra skillpoints. (45nurt/20reg/42shield/10blades/6parry, among many other choices)
If you leave it in reg they need the 1.8

But shield is utility, that will cause an uproar because that is another Slam class option. I would agree with shield if it were a new set of styles for warden that only included snares, but stuns will cause flaming posts... I think a 2h/CSpear fits more with the current abilities wardens are offered without disrupting anything.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 11:01 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 12:35 PM
Wasted_Content wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 12:22 PM
2) If yer gonna update Warden for 2019 then please do the same to Friar
Friar got a buff already! They put them on a higher damage table. I haven't heard many complaints about friar... But if you think they need something start up a thread and see if others agree

Friars got a buff because they were a weak class in 1.65. Wardens don't need something just because Friars got a buff.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 11:04 PM by FUINY7

Warden doesn't need anything improved, it's already pimped a lot with the lower of manacost on heal

Sat 2 Feb 2019 12:17 AM by Bradekes

FUINY7 wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 11:04 PM
Warden doesn't need anything improved, it's already pimped a lot with the lower of manacost on heal

Warden
Regrowth
Minor Heal -Lvl 47- Power: 17 Value: 119
Heal -Lvl 46- Power: 42 Value: 231

Regrowth Spec
Major Heal -Lvl 42- Power: 30 Value: 348

Druid
Regrowth
Minor Heal -Lvl 47- Power: 17 Value: 119
Heal -Lvl 46- Power: 42 Value: 231

Regrowth Spec
Major Heal -Lvl 42- Power: 30 Value: 348

Friar
Rejuvenation
Minor Heal -Lvl 47- Power: 17 Value: 119
Heal -Lvl - Power: Value: 42 Value: 231

Rejuvenation Spec
Major Heal -Lvl 43- Power: 30 Value: 356

-----
Where exactly does Warden have the advantage here? Friar get a heal for the same power usage, one level higher, and heals more. This is the stuff I don't understand on this forum. No proof just words.

Sat 2 Feb 2019 1:26 PM by Ebenezer

FUINY7 wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 11:04 PM
Warden doesn't need anything improved, it's already pimped a lot with the lower of manacost on heal

Leaving it exactly one option in combat. Stand in the back, and cast single-target heals.
When it's a healer that can defend itself, at least it has something to do a druid doesn't.

Whole point of warden is supposed to be a hybrid. Major Heal is only half the equation.
They need the other half, whether it is Shield, LW, spear, hell the old warden TL used to argue to give them Recurve spec, which I didn't really agree with, but at least it's something to do while you stand in the back.

Sat 2 Feb 2019 7:53 PM by jg777

Warden with shield may be to much but I’d support a 2hand option for them.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:36 PM by Pirhana7

Festers wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:31 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:12 AM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:09 PM
The base parry skill chance is 5%
While using 1 hand or duel wield weapons every + point into Parry is .5% chance
While using a 2hand weapon every + point into Parry is 1% chance

This is why Friars and Vale Walkers parry so much

Can you provide any source? I highly doubt that this is the case.
If vw and friars parey much it is because they spec high parry i gues.... At least thats what i would do if i played these classes....

5% base chance, 0.5% increase per spec point, capped at 50%. There is definitely no bonus when you have a 2h equipped.

This is basic DAOC knowledge, from grabs bags to guides, to the game later on saying it in the window for the parry skill.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:38 PM by Pirhana7

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:21 AM
Festers wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:31 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:12 AM
Can you provide any source? I highly doubt that this is the case.
If vw and friars parey much it is because they spec high parry i gues.... At least thats what i would do if i played these classes....

5% base chance, 0.5% increase per spec point, capped at 50%. There is definitely no bonus when you have a 2h equipped.

yes thats my information too, thats why i ask for evidence for the 2h parry bonus... i doubt that there is one^^

This is basic DAOC knowledge, it was first answered in a grab bag on the old forums, later it was added to the skill windows and specificly stated this under the parry skill

Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:46 PM by inoeth

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:38 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:21 AM
Festers wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:31 AM
5% base chance, 0.5% increase per spec point, capped at 50%. There is definitely no bonus when you have a 2h equipped.

yes thats my information too, thats why i ask for evidence for the 2h parry bonus... i doubt that there is one^^

This is basic DAOC knowledge, it was first answered in a grab bag on the old forums, later it was added to the skill windows and specificly stated this under the parry skill

"basic knowledge" can you provide a llink? and by that what do you mean it there a parry bonus or not?

Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:49 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:46 PM
"basic knowledge" can you provide a llink? and by that what do you mean it there a parry bonus or not?

There is no parry bonus. The misconception is most likely due to the fact that using a 2h weapon halves your opponents parry chance.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:41 PM by teiloh

Ebenezer wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Feb 2019 1:26 PM
FUINY7 wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 11:04 PM
Warden doesn't need anything improved, it's already pimped a lot with the lower of manacost on heal

Leaving it exactly one option in combat. Stand in the back, and cast single-target heals.
When it's a healer that can defend itself, at least it has something to do a druid doesn't.

Whole point of warden is supposed to be a hybrid. Major Heal is only half the equation.
They need the other half, whether it is Shield, LW, spear, hell the old warden TL used to argue to give them Recurve spec, which I didn't really agree with, but at least it's something to do while you stand in the back.

Had the same idea as the Warden TL, Shortbow spec would be cool to have if Devs here ever decide to expand class options in line w/ class theme. Quick medium DPS shots with maybe a few special shots. Buffs to 1.5x spec heal lines in general would be good as well.

That said Warden is already an essential and very strong support class.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:05 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:41 PM
Had the same idea as the Warden TL, Shortbow spec would be cool to have if Devs here ever decide to expand class options in line w/ class theme. Quick medium DPS shots with maybe a few special shots. Buffs to 1.5x spec heal lines in general would be good as well.

That said Warden is already an essential and very strong support class.

This would interesting. This would allow their haste to actually increase their dps with a bow, seeings bow shots are not styled damage.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 9:34 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:05 PM
This would interesting. This would allow their haste to actually increase their dps with a bow, seeings bow shots are not styled damage.

My main issue with the 2H suggestion was that it didn't seem to fit the Warden class, and would make Wardens more of a Friar "mirror" so to speak when they're actually very different.

I'm all for making custom changes to the game though as long as they make sense thematically and avoid homogenizing the realms

Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:16 PM by Bradekes

I don't mind homogenizing... Especially when it comes to custom changes... This keeps things more balanced...

I would want recurve bow vs fired weapon bow. Mainly because there are nothing but basic bow skins for fired weapons, which would look LAME.... Also I think spear is seriously just fine. Bow is not fair to friar who has to actually be up close to do damage. Hibernia already has range dmg+heals from mentalist, I think warden fits more with melee due to bubble and such. It is a cool idea, and would be fun, but IMO melee is the way to go.

Having a bow would also distract the warden as to what they should be doing at the moment, obviously with a melee weapon you are either healing or defending yourself if you get attacked. With bow you are just a standing duck or you are trying to wage whether dealing DPS or Healing should be taking precedence. Melee is also the only direction warden have been taken, and it would be much harder to get a custom change with too much deviation. Still not bad ideas tho!

Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:05 PM by Festers

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:38 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:21 AM
Festers wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:31 AM
5% base chance, 0.5% increase per spec point, capped at 50%. There is definitely no bonus when you have a 2h equipped.

yes thats my information too, thats why i ask for evidence for the 2h parry bonus... i doubt that there is one^^

This is basic DAOC knowledge, it was first answered in a grab bag on the old forums, later it was added to the skill windows and specificly stated this under the parry skill

Basic daoc knowledge is knowing there is no parry bonus when using 2h. Your idea that "your chance to parry is 1% per spec point when using 2h" is just plain wrong. I think you need to check your facts sir

Thu 14 Feb 2019 6:48 PM by Everain

I want to bump this and also say that the new ideas are interesting, however, I would be just fine if they decided to simply give me my shield back.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 7:10 PM by Drakuz

all 3 hybrid tanks suffered imo.

paladin, warden, thane.

you dont see many of these in rvr.

the exceptions on usefulness are in the niche of 1 thing that the classes offer. that is it.
and to the rest of the class (those 3 listed) that isnt being used for that purpose, then its a negative.

that said, those 3 have more negatives than positives.
it would be better, thus far, to sub any class, (overall, as we are judging the over merit or flaw) with any other class overall.

so the nice cutesy niche's these classes offer, does not make up for subbing in another class.

any help for these 3, would be beneficial.
perhaps bolstering something they already have. a job they already do. a skill/chant/spell they already have.
in order to balance the class better for rvr.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 7:15 PM by Drakuz

paladin and warden both suffered from the block rate nurf.

the argument was that block rate was a passive effect.
and that ''players should not be able to just get by while doing nothing in rvr''

do those people who made that argument realize the amount of work a paladin and a warden have to do?
my counter argument to those people is this... go run 16 chants, and try to get positionals off - have fun.

possible block rate cap restored for those 3?

Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:29 PM by The Skies Asunder

Block rate currently means nothing for a Warden though, as they can't spec shield on Phoenix. The entire conversation would be different if they were just given 1.8x spec points and shield spec line, as they were given on Live. It changes the class entirely, gives them more survivability, and makes them much more versatile as a support/peeler.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:33 PM by teiloh

1.8x spec Warden with shield, out of the context of everything else that was in place in 1.82, would just be overpowered.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:25 PM by The Skies Asunder

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:33 PM
1.8x spec Warden with shield, out of the context of everything else that was in place in 1.82, would just be overpowered.

Without access to ToA artifacts, and especially MLs for Battlemaster styles, I hardly see how Warden would be OP with shield. There was certainly a time when they may have been given slightly too much love, but that came later. I don't think shield was what pushed them over the edge. More likely it was celerity chant mixed with ML styles to buff shear/endo tap/power tap that cost roughly no endurance, while also being able to block/parry at higher rates and have pbt for defense. Simply adding shield to make them have a defined role that doesn't boil down to "Worse Druid, but with PBT." shouldn't be a huge balance issue in group play.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:01 AM by teiloh

Hib groups are already strong - it would basically give a Hib group another peeler so that Heroes and BMs can be even more brainless and neglect their own backline. That's why I prefer something like Shortbow spec with a few special shots and moderate damage.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:14 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:01 AM
Hib groups are already strong - it would basically give a Hib group another peeler so that Heroes and BMs can be even more brainless and neglect their own backline. That's why I prefer something like Shortbow spec with a few special shots and moderate damage.

This wouldn't do anything for warden. Shooting a bow while they should be healing is silly. Also they are a prime target so how will bow help when they get engaged? I think bow spec would be worse than doing nothing, as they would be too spread out on spec points.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:13 AM by teiloh

That's just the thing - Wardens don't really need any more defense, peeling or CC.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:36 AM by The Skies Asunder

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:13 AM
That's just the thing - Wardens don't really need any more defense, peeling or CC.

I think this is, unfortunately, where we have a fundamental difference of opinions.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:36 AM by teiloh

The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:36 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:13 AM
That's just the thing - Wardens don't really need any more defense, peeling or CC.

I think this is, unfortunately, where we have a fundamental difference of opinions.

Hib is already overloaded when it comes to group support.