Macroing - Violation of Terms?

Just to be safe and sure?
The Rules:
It is allowed to bind multiple actions to a key, however, delays, repeats, and conditions are strictly forbidden as well as any other means that allow unattended game-play

If for example i plan to make a "Pull Macro" for Quality of Live issues.
That does:
1. Change to Throw weapons (icon is on one Taskbar),
2. Activates 3 times the throw Weapon
3. Change back to Mainhand

if i would macro this to my razor Naga. It puts a delay of 0,05ms (as standard) between each keys.
Is this already a violation of terms?

Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:18 AM by rubaduck

It is a problem.

Doing multiple things is not a problem, but making 1 button macro for multiple tasks is a problem for many reasons. QoL is there to make things easier, but overriding the game mechanics just to make it simpler for you is a problem once it gives you an advantage.

The game is not as solid as many of the other MMO's where delayed triggers with multiple actions over a delayed time can be beneficial. But here in DAOC, having that ability is advantageous which is a balance issue.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:26 AM by Ralu

I understand... especially the point of Balancing. It could be used for different things.

I can live with manually swap weapons and pull.
Thanks a lot!

Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:33 AM by rubaduck

You do have a swap command on Phoenix that can be macroed, so you don't have to physically drag and drop

Wed 23 Jan 2019 10:22 AM by Sepplord

Ralu wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:15 AM
Just to be safe and sure?
The Rules:
It is allowed to bind multiple actions to a key, however, delays, repeats, and conditions are strictly forbidden as well as any other means that allow unattended game-play

If for example i plan to make a "Pull Macro" for Quality of Live issues.
That does:
1. Change to Throw weapons (icon is on one Taskbar),
2. Activates 3 times the throw Weapon
3. Change back to Mainhand

if i would macro this to my razor Naga. It puts a delay of 0,05ms (as standard) between each keys.
Is this already a violation of terms?

I haven't started setting up my own macros yet, but this sounds as something that could get me into trouble. How do you know about the delay between the inputs? Does anyone know which tool to use to avoid these delays (as they aren't allowed?).

Wed 23 Jan 2019 2:21 PM by Ralu

Official Mythic Statement is as follows:

We will no longer be enforcing against multi-keybind software or hardware that allow for multiple actions per keystroke per character. An example would be setting up a 'macro' that allows your "w key" to cast both disease and a heal spell. This is a common feature on most gaming keyboards and mice and is something we'd like to add native support for in-game in the future. In effect, using this hardware or software will no longer be a violation.

So it would be really nice, if we can get an official statement from the staff to be safe an clear.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 3:48 PM by Dimir

Ralu wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:15 AM
Just to be safe and sure?
The Rules:
It is allowed to bind multiple actions to a key, however, delays, repeats, and conditions are strictly forbidden as well as any other means that allow unattended game-play

If for example i plan to make a "Pull Macro" for Quality of Live issues.
That does:
1. Change to Throw weapons (icon is on one Taskbar),
2. Activates 3 times the throw Weapon
3. Change back to Mainhand

if i would macro this to my razor Naga. It puts a delay of 0,05ms (as standard) between each keys.
Is this already a violation of terms?

So at first this looks fine: Ranged Weapon Button, #, #, #, Melee Weapon Button. However Throwing a weapon has a "cast time" so you would have to put some significant delay before your #3. That I believe is against the rules. I don't see any reason you can't split this up though:
Macro 1:
1. Change to Throw weapons (icon is on one Taskbar),
2. Activates 3 times the throw Weapon

Wait for yourself to throw the axe:
3. Change back to Mainhand (no macro needed since this is a single button)

Wed 23 Jan 2019 4:48 PM by Ralu

So i can
- Macro1: Shield + Slam
- Macro2: 2Hand weapon + Stylechain

Wed 23 Jan 2019 5:23 PM by Ardri

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:18 AM
It is a problem.

Doing multiple things is not a problem, but making 1 button macro for multiple tasks is a problem for many reasons. QoL is there to make things easier, but overriding the game mechanics just to make it simpler for you is a problem once it gives you an advantage.

The game is not as solid as many of the other MMO's where delayed triggers with multiple actions over a delayed time can be beneficial. But here in DAOC, having that ability is advantageous which is a balance issue.

Pretty sure the devs said what OP wants to do is allowed. The only thing not allowed are loops/repeats, obviously for twisting reasons on minst/pally/bard.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 6:11 PM by Zansobar

The devs have been very clear about this multiple times, you cannot put a delay in between commands as in the TOS cited by the OP...that is pretty clear and if your mouse puts delays between commands that would violate the TOS.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 6:12 PM by Seigmoraig

From the official rules page

"5. Macroing

It is allowed to bind multiple actions to a key, however, delays, repeats, and conditions are strictly forbidden as well as any other means that allow unattended game-play

1st offense: Deletion of all characters and 2-weeks ban
2nd offense: permaban of Player "

What the OP would want to do would be illegal because he would need to input a delay between the time it takes to wind up the throw and switching to main hand weapon. also they state that repeats are illegal but this may be a gray area because activating a ranged weapon needs a repeat action. Would need a GM ruling on this specific instance

1. Change to Throw weapons (icon is on one Taskbar), -No prob
2. Activates 3 times the throw Weapon -possibly no prob but the rules explicitly state no repeats
3. Change back to Mainhand - Illegal action because without adding a delay here it would switch to mainhand before the projectile is launched

Wed 23 Jan 2019 6:26 PM by Ashok

Seigmoraig wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jan 2019 6:12 PM
From the official rules page

"5. Macroing

It is allowed to bind multiple actions to a key, however, delays, repeats, and conditions are strictly forbidden as well as any other means that allow unattended game-play

1st offense: Deletion of all characters and 2-weeks ban
2nd offense: permaban of Player "

What the OP would want to do would be illegal because he would need to input a delay between the time it takes to wind up the throw and switching to main hand weapon. also they state that repeats are illegal but this may be a gray area because activating a ranged weapon needs a repeat action. Would need a GM ruling on this specific instance

1. Change to Throw weapons (icon is on one Taskbar), -No prob
2. Activates 3 times the throw Weapon -possibly no prob but the rules explicitly state no repeats
3. Change back to Mainhand - Illegal action because without adding a delay here it would switch to mainhand before the projectile is launched

Seigmoraig did summarize is properly.
Let the client/server decide regarding spell/action queueing/friend-or-foe detection and you're fine.

No action-delay-action-delay-action. Do action-action-action and let the server handle it.
For example you may also bind nearsight and nearsight cure to the same button, as long you let the game decide which to use (which it will, based on the current target).
If you add any decision logic (if-then-else) or delay it's a violation.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 7:14 PM by Ralu

State is clear now... thank you

Wed 23 Jan 2019 7:22 PM by Dimir

Ashok wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jan 2019 6:26 PM
Seigmoraig did summarize is properly.
Let the client/server decide regarding spell/action queueing/friend-or-foe detection and you're fine.

No action-delay-action-delay-action. Do action-action-action and let the server handle it.
For example you may also bind nearsight and nearsight cure to the same button, as long you let the game decide which to use (which it will, based on the current target).
If you add any decision logic (if-then-else) or delay it's a violation.

Delay is not clearly defined. Most mouse/keyboard/AHK scripts need _some_ delay/sleep between key presses like 10 ms to function (or the program will just insert some default delay in between anyway and you won't know what it is). I don't know why this is getting dodged so hard, please just clarify to the rule that delays between actions must be less than X, where X is whatever you think is fine for the normal speed of press button down, release button, press button 2 down, etc.
I have no desire to make macros that are like Press X, wait 2.3 seconds, Press Y but it's unnerving to not get this clarified.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:38 PM by Zansobar

I think it's pretty clear. You can't make a macro that can execute two or more actions when those actions would only execute successively if there was a delay between the commands. You can make a macro to execute two or more actions when those actions would execute successively if there is zero delay between the commands.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:52 PM by Dimir

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:38 PM
I think it's pretty clear. You can't make a macro that can execute two or more actions when those actions would only execute successively if there was a delay between the commands. You can make a macro to execute two or more actions when those actions would execute successively if there is zero delay between the commands.

What I'm saying is that there is no actual "zero delay between commands" macro. If you think you have no delay defined it's just using some hidden delay depending on your software.

Thu 24 Jan 2019 6:44 AM by Koljar

Good news! So playing a paladin is suddenly an option again for me...

Thu 24 Jan 2019 8:29 PM by

gruenesschaf

The rule is stated in a way that non technical people can understand it, technical people will have a specific technical question that will not be confirmed in detail but is implicit due to technical reasons. The purpose for not wanting delay or repeats is that we do not want unattended gameplay nor task automation like auto chanting / charming every x seconds.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 5:53 AM by Haruspex

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jan 2019 8:29 PM
The rule is stated in a way that non technical people can understand it, technical people will have a specific technical question that will not be confirmed in detail but is implicit due to technical reasons. The purpose for not wanting delay or repeats is that we do not want unattended gameplay nor task automation like auto chanting / charming every x seconds.

This just means I can bind a key that hits all my chants that I want to twist to a mouse button. When I want to twist or the previous twist is expiring, I just press the button again. I don't see much difference between that and Auto twist chants running on a loop.

BUt I don't care. I like being able to do that, so whatever makes you happy on this one.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 7:38 AM by Sepplord

Haruspex wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jan 2019 5:53 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jan 2019 8:29 PM
The rule is stated in a way that non technical people can understand it, technical people will have a specific technical question that will not be confirmed in detail but is implicit due to technical reasons. The purpose for not wanting delay or repeats is that we do not want unattended gameplay nor task automation like auto chanting / charming every x seconds.

This just means I can bind a key that hits all my chants that I want to twist to a mouse button. When I want to twist or the previous twist is expiring, I just press the button again. I don't see much difference between that and Auto twist chants running on a loop.

BUt I don't care. I like being able to do that, so whatever makes you happy on this one.

how can you not see the difference? One siutuation you do nothing and chants run forever, other situation you have to be aware of your chants running out and manually active them again...

Thu 31 Jan 2019 11:48 PM by Haruspex

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jan 2019 7:38 AM
Haruspex wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jan 2019 5:53 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jan 2019 8:29 PM
The rule is stated in a way that non technical people can understand it, technical people will have a specific technical question that will not be confirmed in detail but is implicit due to technical reasons. The purpose for not wanting delay or repeats is that we do not want unattended gameplay nor task automation like auto chanting / charming every x seconds.

This just means I can bind a key that hits all my chants that I want to twist to a mouse button. When I want to twist or the previous twist is expiring, I just press the button again. I don't see much difference between that and Auto twist chants running on a loop.

BUt I don't care. I like being able to do that, so whatever makes you happy on this one.

how can you not see the difference? One siutuation you do nothing and chants run forever, other situation you have to be aware of your chants running out and manually active them again...

Sorry for delayed reply, been quite busy.

I'm not looking to start an argument on it. I can of course see that there is a small difference, but the end result is essentially the same. I'm a good player - I've been playing this game for years. Putting the tool in my hand would mean that my chants would run forever, just the same as if they were running on a loop.

Like I said, not trying to cause any problems, I just don't see the importance of it, maybe? Either way, it works for the admins, so as long as they're happy we'll roll with it.