Remove /underpop bonuses!!! - Phoenix Freeshard

It was only really needed in beta, sometimes i see mid or albs get 85% rp bonus for example just because there is some pve raid going on and 1-2 groups that are actually doing rvr are making close to double the realm points.
Same thing with other bonuses like i have seen feather gains up to 80% etc.

Just outright remove all underpop bonuses or cap at 5% or something that is not insane like it is right now.

One again you are very welcome.

Raunz

Tue 22 Jan 2019 10:39 AM by Ceen

You are welcome to join Albion ^^

Tue 22 Jan 2019 10:42 AM by Raunz

Ceen wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jan 2019 10:39 AM
You are welcome to join Albion ^^

Too much alb in beta m8....

Tue 22 Jan 2019 10:53 AM by Sepplord

why though?

you fail to list a single reason

Is some group unfairly grinding RPs faster than you just because they have underpop bonus?

seriously, that's the only reason i can think off, and it is kind of ridiculous to me that an organized grp that is ahead of the curve (and you deserve that for the organisation and time you poured in) and reaping in loads of benefits for it, somehow still feels the need to complain about a minor bonus like this

Feel free to leave the overpop realm and join Albion/Midgard (Albion probably needs it more)...you will have more noobs to farm and even more important: more set grps to compete with in competitive fights. Because that's what the bonus is supposed to do, incentivize players to leave the overpop realm. Would you consider leaving for 5% when you aren't doing it for the current %?

Tue 22 Jan 2019 11:19 AM by Meandow

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jan 2019 10:53 AM
why though?

you fail to list a single reason

Is some group unfairly grinding RPs faster than you just because they have underpop bonus?

seriously, that's the only reason i can think off, and it is kind of ridiculous to me that an organized grp that is ahead of the curve (and you deserve that for the organisation and time you poured in) and reaping in loads of benefits for it, somehow still feels the need to complain about a minor bonus like this

Feel free to leave the overpop realm and join Albion/Midgard (Albion probably needs it more)...you will have more noobs to farm and even more important: more set grps to compete with in competitive fights. Because that's what the bonus is supposed to do, incentivize players to leave the overpop realm. Would you consider leaving for 5% when you aren't doing it for the current %?

Maybe you should read his post before replying mate. He clearly states the issue isn't the bonus but rather that when there is for example a raid going on and 95% of the lvl 45-50 on the realm leaves to go pve the remaining 5% gets an unreasonably high one. Personally I don't see why this bonus would be changed directly but should more be corresponding to either total amount of players online or change on a daily/weekly basis depending on population.

Tue 22 Jan 2019 11:35 AM by Sepplord

Meandow wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jan 2019 11:19 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jan 2019 10:53 AM
why though?

you fail to list a single reason

Is some group unfairly grinding RPs faster than you just because they have underpop bonus?

seriously, that's the only reason i can think off, and it is kind of ridiculous to me that an organized grp that is ahead of the curve (and you deserve that for the organisation and time you poured in) and reaping in loads of benefits for it, somehow still feels the need to complain about a minor bonus like this

Feel free to leave the overpop realm and join Albion/Midgard (Albion probably needs it more)...you will have more noobs to farm and even more important: more set grps to compete with in competitive fights. Because that's what the bonus is supposed to do, incentivize players to leave the overpop realm. Would you consider leaving for 5% when you aren't doing it for the current %?

Maybe you should read his post before replying mate. He clearly states the issue isn't the bonus but rather that when there is for example a raid going on and 95% of the lvl 45-50 on the realm leaves to go pve the remaining 5% gets an unreasonably high one. Personally I don't see why this bonus would be changed directly but should more be corresponding to either total amount of players online or change on a daily/weekly basis depending on population.

I read his post. Why do you assume i haven't read it. Especially since i make claims about the content of his post, it is quite clear that i did not just skim the title...
He doesn't state a reason, he states a fewnumbers without any reasons. And you are just repeating what he said.
What is the reason that he thinks that the (shorttime) bonus is too high?
If there is one grp albs going up against 8fg hibs, why wouldn't they get a huge underpop bonus for fighting while the odds are as they are.

How fucked up would it be if one realms gets stomped in RvR hard and doesn't get a bonus, because their realmmates are all doing PvE?

Tue 22 Jan 2019 11:48 AM by Raunz

Edited: Please dont insult each other. Thx, Uthred.

Tue 22 Jan 2019 8:29 PM by Tree

Raunz is right, there should be a cap for the underdog bonus around 5-10%. For a lot of players DAoC RvR has always been about the competition. Who has the highest RR, who made the most RP per week and so on.
With bonuses of 50% or more it makes this kind of competitive play almost impossible.

Tue 22 Jan 2019 8:37 PM by Vlalkor

Lol, hibs complaining of underpop bonus... It is there for a reason.. Join an underpop realm if you want it.

Tue 22 Jan 2019 8:38 PM by defiasbandit

Tree wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jan 2019 8:29 PM
Raunz is right, there should be a cap for the underdog bonus around 5-10%. For a lot of players DAoC RvR has always been about the competition. Who has the highest RR, who made the most RP per week and so on.

You mean 8v1 competition.

Tue 22 Jan 2019 8:45 PM by Azeth123

So is this going to be an argument where if I play Hib I say the population bonus is incorrect and if I play Alb then I say it is ok?

Let's be honest folks, this server is fantastic and it allows us to do what we all like best, play DAOC. If we take away incentives to play low pop realms (Even if that low pop is only RVR low pop), then people will honestly quit playing.

No one wants to fight an 8 group zerg with their 8-12 people. You get pounded over and over and its a waste of time. It doesnt help that it feels like most established guilds and groups went Hib / Mid to begin with, considering how quickly they had raids up and running and the amount of fully temped people out in RvR within a week.

For better or for worse, does it truly matter if Alb is getting a RP bonus? Do you really want to pound low realm ranks over and over with your zerg and feel good?

Tue 22 Jan 2019 10:09 PM by Dve

I agree on bonus rps for an underpopulated realm, but it should not be the DIRECT percentage of the gap.
200 hibs vs 150 mids should not translate to a 25% bonus. And 100 vs 90 players should not translate to a 10% bonus.

It should probably be halfed (25% fewer players -> 12.5% bonus, 50% fewer players -> 25% bonus). We already get so many ways to get rps with the tasks etc.

Btw, nobody is crying because of the huge bonuses for the currently weakest realm. It's fine because Alb really needs a push in order to catch up. But It's questionable that the second highest realm should immediately get bonuses when lagging only slightly behind. Even a bonus of 10% is actually big. Maybe the bonus should only kick in after a disputable threshold? Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself and it'll be fine, if the bonus would get reduced to always half of the population difference.

Tue 22 Jan 2019 11:26 PM by Ceen

No one will change their habits for 5 % or 10 % increase. It has to be big to actually work.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 6:37 AM by jelzinga_EU

I must be missing the point, but how does an enemy getting x% more RP's change and impact your game play-time at any point ? I don't see any argument why there should be a change.

When I look at https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints I see 7 Hibs, 2 Mids and 1 Alb in it (including OP) so if the UP-bonus isn't really working (yet). I also see 5 other of his guildmates in the top 10 - so kudos to them to do so well but I get the distinct feeling here it is more of a case of QQ then anything else.

You're running a more or less set-group ganking freshly dinged 50s RR2-RR3 in ROG's. While it is obvious you put your time and work in the game it is amount of time and work most of us don't have. As a result you're dominating the ranks and frontiers but you still manage to complain about a RP-bonus the enemy gets? Seriously, I don't think you're in any position to complain about having a disadvantage in-game.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 6:55 AM by Tree

Well I dont care personally, but you cant argue that RR and RP are kind of the competitive measurement in an RvR game to somewhat determine who is the best or at least who worked enough to earn a certain rank or place in the faily/weekly play. The current mechanic interferes with that.
Should there be incentives for underpopulated realms? Yes, of course. But maybe there is another way that wont interfere with a vital aspect of endgame RvR.

Maybe the higher percentage bonuses could be reserved for XP gain, coin drop, feathers or something completely different.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 7:42 AM by Sepplord

Tree wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jan 2019 6:55 AM
Well I dont care personally, but you cant argue that RR and RP are kind of the competitive measurement in an RvR game to somewhat determine who is the best or at least who worked enough to earn a certain rank or place in the faily/weekly play. The current mechanic interferes with that.
Should there be incentives for underpopulated realms? Yes, of course. But maybe there is another way that wont interfere with a vital aspect of endgame RvR.

Maybe the higher percentage bonuses could be reserved for XP gain, coin drop, feathers or something completely different.

So the underpop realms gets bonuses that incentives them to NOT go into RvR but to stay in PvP and reap bonuses ???

:

Seriously, Raunz is pissed because someone might get RP without "working as hard" as his grp for it. He doesn't want to state any of his reasons because they are easily refuteable, and when i ask for actual reasons he personally attacks me instead of voicing his opinion.
At least some people here have mentioned the RR-Race at the top. And while i understand, i don't think it has an impact on 90% of the population, and the benefits of huge underpop boni by far outweigh the "problem" of interfering with the top-race of some set-grps.

As others have stated, set-grps are farming untemped/noobs/smallmen/low-lvls/etc. It currently a competitive race about who can farm the most noobs in the shortest amount of time. IF anyone doing that truely believes that has ANYTHING to do with competitive DAoC, then i don't really know how to respond to that without being condescending

Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:20 AM by jelzinga_EU

I can see how it has an impact on the RR-race, that much is true. But is the RR-race for a (very) select few more important than the other 99% of the population ?

You can even argue that the RR-race is a silly benchmark to begin with as it depends more heavily on a hell of a lot more than "skill" (e.g. time spend in RvR, population during playhours, total playtime, availability of enemies) but it is "something".

I just get the feeling it is a complaint about how someone might have an advantage to them while completely ignoring all other variables. As such I think it is better to ignore such a request.

TL;DR : It is not so much an interest in making it fair, it is an interest in removing any potential advantage his opponents have.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:27 AM by Tree

Sepplord, you are quite smug, but I will try to give you an objecte answer regardless.
First I dont believe any sort of bonus has much impact on who plays where. Most players choose one realm and stick with it. A temporary underdog bonus will not entice people to say "Oh well, lets play Albion this week".
Though maybe I am mistaken, I guess staff has more statistics on what percentage of players switches realms regularly.

The most impact an underdog bonus probably has, is when initially a new player decides which realm to play without any preference whatsoever. The actual numbers probably arent that important for such a candidate but rather the feeling of "I could help there the most and I even get a bonus for it", if its 5, 10 or 50% RP bonus probably wont matter much to such a player.
On a sidenote, more important than any percentage would be a very clear indication at client startup or realm selection which realm actually has underdog bonus, so new player know about it and can base their decision on what they see on the screen (without reading wiki or forum).

For the 10% (or probably rather 1-2%) of players who like to actually play competitive and really care about RP however this is a rather major issue, because it makes the daily, weekly run for most RP entirely uncomparable. Now you can say "Fu** them, who cares about these elitists anyway!". Well in fact I do and so should you, because this small percentage of players are a vital part of classic DAoC, they spend a lot of time in this game, most of them organize communities, raids etc., they are institutions, recognizable names, they show what is possible with dedication and skill. Yep, skill too. Trying to belittle those guys is rather cute. I bet you and I wouldnt be able to beat Raunz with equal RR and equip at least 9 times out of 10.

So why antagonize those players, why take their fun away? The server has nothing to gain from it, but it sure has a few amazing players to loose.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 11:09 AM by Sepplord

Tree wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:27 AM
Sepplord, you are quite smug, but I will try to give you an objecte answer regardless.
First I dont believe any sort of bonus has much impact on who plays where. Most players choose one realm and stick with it. A temporary underdog bonus will not entice people to say "Oh well, lets play Albion this week".
Though maybe I am mistaken, I guess staff has more statistics on what percentage of players switches realms regularly.

The most impact an underdog bonus probably has, is when initially a new player decides which realm to play without any preference whatsoever. The actual numbers probably arent that important for such a candidate but rather the feeling of "I could help there the most and I even get a bonus for it", if its 5, 10 or 50% RP bonus probably wont matter much to such a player.
On a sidenote, more important than any percentage would be a very clear indication at client startup or realm selection which realm actually has underdog bonus, so new player know about it and can base their decision on what they see on the screen (without reading wiki or forum).

For the 10% (or probably rather 1-2%) of players who like to actually play competitive and really care about RP however this is a rather major issue, because it makes the daily, weekly run for most RP entirely uncomparable. Now you can say "Fu** them, who cares about these elitists anyway!". Well in fact I do and so should you, because this small percentage of players are a vital part of classic DAoC, they spend a lot of time in this game, most of them organize communities, raids etc., they are institutions, recognizable names, they show what is possible with dedication and skill. Yep, skill too. Trying to belittle those guys is rather cute. I bet you and I wouldnt be able to beat Raunz with equal RR and equip at least 9 times out of 10.

So why antagonize those players, why take their fun away? The server has nothing to gain from it, but it sure has a few amazing players to loose.

thanks for the elaborate answer, i agree with some parts and disagree with some. I understand that the competitive grps want to race, but to me it feels pathetic to whine about some RP-boni a different realm gets when the whole race boils down to the luck of who finds more weaklings to farm. Especially when it comes from the people currently in the lead. Two grps racing running equivalent pathes through the frontier. One find a level group and a noobzerg, while the other only find a few soloers. How is that fair?

Yeah, i understand, from the perspective of people that beat 99% of their enemies, it sucks that the other realms gets MORE enemies to farm AND a bonus on top. But that position is so far disconnected from the usual playerbase that it should not trigger changes that effect everyone else negatively.

Trying to belittle those guys is rather cute. I bet you and I wouldnt be able to beat Raunz with equal RR and equip at least 9 times out of 10.

I am sure giving me a 1/10 chance is being generous. I am not disputing that these groups would roll over 90% without breaking a sweat even if all things were equal. They could probably also do it while at a RR/gear/setup disadvantage. But i never meant to belittled their ingame skills. Their ingame skills are clearly supreme. Organisation, discipline to "nolife" at launch and the actual RvR-fighting/awareness/positiong/control/etc... are all skills that are not commonly found or easy to learn. And that is something i respect. Just as i respected Raunz and their grp, for being basically godlike beings compared to my small ingame existance.
I can still disrespect the attitude that is required to make such a suggestion from that position and how Raunz reacted when i wanted HIM to explain his reasonings. All i got for that was a personal insult from him. I am not sorry for being smug now.

I also disagree that all of the set-groups are healthy to a daoc server. Elitist 8man behaviour has caused far more grief and drama than the beneficial effect of inspiration they have. Not all set-grps show that behaviour though... but that is going too far offtopic, and as you said, if they enjoy that playstyle, then they are free to play like that. I won't say anything about it, unless they come to the public forum and complain. That opens everyone up to give their 2cents.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 12:03 PM by Ganil

I'm not even close to lv50 yet but:

top 15 rps toons:
-> 10 hibs
-> 4 mids
-> 1 alb

Complain: Too much bonus for being underpop (mainly aimed at alb).

It just doesn't compute. You might be right in the long run, but not for now.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 12:39 PM by opossum12

I think the RP bonus needs to stay the way it is.

Why did every single free shard failed? Because hardcores create such a gap with casuals thatbtje casuals leave, and then the hardcore are left circle jerking between each other. If they actually enjoyed that, I suppose they would still be playing uthgard.

RP bonus + tasks helps casuals get to a decent rank, it gives them the opportunity for progression.

The health of a MMO is 100% its population, not some ridiculous Epeen race on who has most Rps.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 1:12 PM by Raunz

TG raid starts, boom 1 mid group that is running got 85% rp bonus.. ke if you find this fair and "normal" lets proceed as it is. Good luck.

Btw when you have so high population any bonus other then XP and Feather is just mental but whatever.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 1:48 PM by Sepplord

But having such a high bonus will make more groups (at least think about) skipping the Raid to reap in those bonuses, aka driving more people into RvR.
The bonus' job is to incentivize people to change their behaviour/gameplans and pull them into RvR. 5% will not do that.

imo it is self regulating, because as soon as it starts doing its job (aka increasing the RvR population) it decreases. You could even make a case for increasing the bonus even further, since it sounds as if the 85% was there over a longer timeperiod for one midgrp, which means noone cared enough for 85% more RP to skip the raid. (This part is tongue in cheek, i don't think even higher boni are needed and IF the midgrp had the bonus for a extended period of time i think maybe high-boni like that need to be advertised so people are actively recruited into the RvR zones to go for high boni)

Fri 25 Jan 2019 10:48 AM by Raunz

Yes, very op 85% rp bonus crazy good, nerf.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 11:23 AM by Druth

The bonus is only a problem if you look at the game as 1v1, 8v8 etc... but the game is RvR, and so the bonus is meant to reward underpopped realms for not just giving up.

Edit: Meaning, that the bonus is not meant for you to compare e-peen.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 11:36 AM by Druth

And yes, looking at Phoenix Herald gives me the impression that the bonus is not high enough, or that Hib and to some degree Mid needs a RvR nerf of some sort.

I don't care about skill, because that will always be a completely subjective discussion, RP/Weekly needs to be as close to even as possible, and over time one third to each realm. If not, then you need to adjust something.

Again, don't bring into that discussion "but my realm/group/buddies" are just better organized and better players etc... it's all subjective and it's a discussion with no winners.

Edit: I don't think anything should be adjusted yet, to early... but if the trend continues then yes. But the bonus is clearly not to high.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 11:45 AM by Druth

Tree wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:27 AM
For the 10% (or probably rather 1-2%) of players who like to actually play competitive and really care about RP however this is a rather major issue, because it makes the daily, weekly run for most RP entirely uncomparable. Now you can say "Fu** them, who cares about these elitists anyway!". Well in fact I do and so should you, because this small percentage of players are a vital part of classic DAoC, they spend a lot of time in this game, most of them organize communities, raids etc., they are institutions, recognizable names, they show what is possible with dedication and skill. Yep, skill too. Trying to belittle those guys is rather cute. I bet you and I wouldnt be able to beat Raunz with equal RR and equip at least 9 times out of 10.

So why antagonize those players, why take their fun away? The server has nothing to gain from it, but it sure has a few amazing players to loose.

It baffles me some, the people who claim to be competetive are the same that are running around killing xp'ers, and even greys.
Are they a vital part of DaoC...?
Pretty sure someone else would take up the torch and lead raids if they were gone.

And who started this thread with a complaint? A complaint about rps "inequality"... and I thought what this grouped loved the most were the good fights, and rps were secondary?

Fri 25 Jan 2019 12:09 PM by Yeeha

dont let ur saltiness drown the message buddy, this is not about you

Fri 25 Jan 2019 12:18 PM by Tree

Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jan 2019 11:45 AM
It baffles me some, the people who claim to be competetive are the same that are running around killing xp'ers, and even greys.
Are they a vital part of DaoC...?
Pretty sure someone else would take up the torch and lead raids if they were gone.

And who started this thread with a complaint? A complaint about rps "inequality"... and I thought what this grouped loved the most were the good fights, and rps were secondary?

Oh please dont try to turn this thread into a one world lets sing kumbaya bullshit.

Mids and Albs can go to hell, espacially their grey noob slackers. Kill them where you find them. Discussion over.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 12:28 PM by Karqa

Ganil wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jan 2019 12:03 PM
I'm not even close to lv50 yet but:

top 15 rps toons:
-> 10 hibs
-> 4 mids
-> 1 alb

Complain: Too much bonus for being underpop (mainly aimed at alb).

It just doesn't compute. You might be right in the long run, but not for now.

thank you for the best answer.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 12:29 PM by Druth

Tree wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jan 2019 12:18 PM
Oh please dont try to turn this thread into a one world lets sing kumbaya bullshit.

Mids and Albs can go to hell, espacially their grey noob slackers. Kill them where you find them. Discussion over.

Then please stop putting people on a pedistal, and attack people who disagrees with your deity.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 12:45 PM by Sepplord

Derailing this thread completely doesn't lead to anything beneficial

calm down and get back to topic pls

Fri 25 Jan 2019 12:49 PM by Druth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jan 2019 12:45 PM
Derailing this thread completely doesn't lead to anything beneficial

calm down and get back to topic pls

Righty.

I support the bonus untill the bonus somehow favours which ever realm dominates RvR.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 3:54 PM by jelzinga_EU

Raunz wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jan 2019 1:12 PM
TG raid starts, boom 1 mid group that is running got 85% rp bonus.. ke if you find this fair and "normal" lets proceed as it is. Good luck.

Btw when you have so high population any bonus other then XP and Feather is just mental but whatever.

This would be valid if there where no epic-raids in Hib/Alb. There are, so that evens out. Unless ofcourse you do attend the ones in Hib, so you don't get the RPs bonus. If that is the case: tough luck, just go RvR and reap the benefits. That is what those Mids do too if they don't run TG but go RvR instead.