Class Inclusion to Leveling Groups

It's the age old issue that has forever made Dark Age of Camelot very difficult for more casual players (e.g., having to go to work and stuff). It's the curse of the game to see all three realms spamming for (a) pbao (b) support classes.

The game is built to cater to these specific classes during leveling. This means that if you want to play a melee (God forbid) you are going to solo.

PBAOE
SUPPORT

And that's it....

Granted, you could say: Celerity healer + melee but trust me, on Midgard, no one cares. It's all LFM bomb/support ad infinitum.

So, melee classes are mostly solo which is really ugly for a game with so many great classes to choose from.

Which takes us to rogues...

Secondly, and what a huge issue this is as well, but if you play a rogue class you are instantly discounted as being group "friendly." The assumption of group friendly (logically) should be: you bring either tanking/dps/support to a group. We all know that archers might have some issues here (the everlasting challenge of taking a class that was able to turn the tide against French knights at the height of the 100-years War and War of Roses) but they can pull mobs from nearsite range and on Albion, you are an extraordinary shield tank. And yet, no one gives a turd about this.

Assassins are considered unviable for groups - even with Phoenix being kind to allow free respecs to 49, inspiring stealthers to focus on group friendly builds, and yet they are still regarded as non-entities.

So - melee is having a difficult situation (other than that rare tank invite for a pbaoe class on Midgard), and rogues have hell.

That being said - is there any sense of looking into this?

Here's a fun suggestion for inspiring groups to see rogues as people (again - general melee needs group mechanics love as well but I'll put some effort into the most ignored class of the game)

MDPS Rogues are given a group dps buff (doesn't stack) - something viable enough to matter - this works in RvR too because why not?
RDPS Rogues are given a ranged group dps buff (doesn't stack with other RDPS but will with MDPS) so casters even pbaoe casters will benefit.

Granted, it needs to be enough to make a difference.

Here's an even more fun suggestion:

What if an assassin class automatically increased a group's chance for special and unique items? Remember the old Dungeons and Dragons days where a rogue could be responsible for getting their party past traps, opening doors and chests (even in WoW), and finally, could increase a group's chances for gathering valuable treasure?

Recall the Hobbit? The party needed a burgler...

What if an archer class granted the party (RvR zone) a kind of tiny radar? In other words, your archer sees the enemy before they come or at least has a chance to pay attention to an alert on her mini-map that can aid her in warning her group? Add this to the previous ranged dps bonus and you have a chance to be invited as an archer in the revamp of DAoC 1.65.

These are just ideas...and I am begging the great developers of this potentially fun server (where everyone should be invited to play) to remember why everyone loves characters like Legolas and Drizzt Do'urden....and looks specifically at mmorpg titles that enable them to express their fantasy.

Anyway - I understand that my ideas will be giggled at and scouts, rangers, hunters, infiltrators, nightshades and shadowblades will have missed all the fun class changes in this version of DAoC as well.

But here's to hoping.

Mon 21 Jan 2019 3:33 PM by megalisto

I have the same problem, thats why I think rogues better have to make a syndicate

Mon 21 Jan 2019 3:48 PM by SpoonyBard

My biggest concern is impacting their level 50 packages. Most of the Alb classes seem useful in RvR in some manner and adding more could tilt/skew the advantage more their favor.

I'm not against any of these changes, but I think it would be very difficult to implement something while keeping the 50 RvR experience in tact. That being said, I think it's important to have these conversations (as long as they're kept in a positive light) because it generates more ideas; it's healthy for the player base and life of this shard I would argue.

Mon 21 Jan 2019 6:32 PM by Lairirian

They have already added a "social" bonus. If you have 8 different classes in your group you get +40% to exp.

Many groups I have been in have had tanks in them.

Any player can do pulling, so as long as you have a bow, you can pull mobs. The tank is also less likely to die if they get hit when running back to the group after pulling.

Giving rogues bonus to drops is certainly in theme for them.

In a pbaoe group, aggro control is important.

In the first Final Fantasy MMORPG, the thief class had the ability to transfer aggro onto another player. I can't remember the name of the move. It was a "trick" taunt style that transfered aggro onto a friendly target.

In daoc terms, there could be styles like the following:

Deceptive Strike
Req: friendly target between mob and player
Damage: High
Effect: Transfers aggression due to attack to friendly target

This would be for pulling mobs off casters while transferring aggro to the pet. It is a little harder than normal taunt but is more effective. If a caster is attacked they have to position the mob on the opposite side of the pet to the rogue. The rogue hits with this strike but the mob thinks it was a hit from the pet.

It is probably not worth the effort. The rogue might as well just taunt the mob onto themselves. It could be set up to work like guard. You pick a target to transfer your aggro onto.

Shield tanks can guard the pbaoers. This could be boosted for pve (it is around 25% chance at least around level 25). Guard could be given a bonus to block with a 10 second cooldown after each block. Effectively, it would give a single target pulsing blade turn (but as a block). A guarded pbaoer would not be interrupted by a blocked attack.

Tanks aren't need for pbaoe groups but can be helpful for times when aggro goes for the healers.

Mon 21 Jan 2019 7:22 PM by PingGuy

I've been playing a Blademaster since the launch weekend. Being very casual, I've only recently reached level 18. A good chunk of that time has been spent soloing, but I've actually duo'd with a few folks, and even got into a few groups. I haven't advertised LFG or anything, I just hang out in popular areas and eventually somebody tosses me an invite. I've duo'd with a Bard and then more recently a Valewalker. Both were very successful grouping experiences. We could take anything orange without an issue, reds were dicey but doable with more downtime. One other time, I got a random invite from a Druid/Mentalist/Enchanter group, which was a lot of fun.

I'm sure things thin out at higher levels though. Still I'll be embracing the duo concept much more as I level up. I'm not normally one to throw out random invites to people, but I'm going to try to start doing that. It's really been fun to be on the receiving end of that, so I want to keep that going. It's also really beneficial given my style options. I could sit there solo, auto-attacking, hoping I evade the mob so I can use a decent style to speed up the fight. Or I could find a partner, opening up my "from-behind" styles which are the best i have at the moment.

The other night with the Valewalker was actually pretty fun. He'd pull something tough, I'd do a back style chain, and then follow up with a taunt style to ensure the VW didn't die. It didn't work every time, but that's half the fun of learning. I hope people see the benefit of grouping up, even if they don't have perfectly synergized classes. If nothing else, you're less likely to die to a randomly bad pull.

Mon 21 Jan 2019 7:56 PM by kmark101

I levelled my berserker to 50 semi casually (yes I know, launch weekend was addicted...

), not even once in a pbaoe group. Just did the good old fashioned melee dps group, with tanks and different classes. Due to the supernice class variance xp, we usually took shadowblades, hunters and other less popular group classes as well, which added lots of flavor. If I couldn't find a group in /lfg, then I usually formed mine, starting small (always grabbing a tank first, then a shaman, rest followed). One trick to form your own group is to go to the desirable levelling spot and start fighting even if you are alone or with one more... it's much more quick to build group in progress of fighting than to form up slowly without action.

Once solo, I always went for the kill tasks (they reset 00:00 GMT). Couple great areas for that in Midgard, like Varulvhamn with 5 different mob types and dungeon task, soloable around lvl 40 for most classes. Above lvl 40, xp items helped a lot for soloing as well (and below 20, phoenix eggs). It all adds up and the levelling experience was very enjoyable both solo and group, I never had the grindy feeling that I hate. Level 50 was reached with 36 hours /played, again, 0 pbaoe grouping and zerker is not the best soloer either (but with ROGs, I actually felt ok in solo pve).

Mon 21 Jan 2019 8:00 PM by SpoonyBard

kmark101 wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jan 2019 7:56 PM
I levelled my berserker to 50 semi casually (yes I know, launch weekend was addicted... ), not even once in a pbaoe group. Just did the good old fashioned melee dps group, with tanks and different classes. Due to the supernice class variance xp, we usually took shadowblades, hunters and other less popular group classes as well, which added lots of flavor. If I couldn't find a group in /lfg, then I usually formed mine, starting small (always grabbing a tank first, then a shaman, rest followed). One trick to form your own group is to go to the desirable levelling spot and start fighting even if you are alone or with one more... it's much more quick to build group in progress of fighting than to form up slowly without action.

What you said at the end is very true. People feel pressed for time and don't like to wait typically.

We had a group last night that started out as two, went to five, and then filled immediately afterwards with people sending messages to join. This was all due to us just sticking into a high traffic mob camping area. Sometimes it's hit/miss; I've been in areas where everyone was soloing and no one wanted to group; however, you won't know until you try

Mon 21 Jan 2019 8:16 PM by Bradekes

kmark101 wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jan 2019 7:56 PM
(always grabbing a tank first, then a shaman, rest followed).

This is Midgard dynamic, this doesn't happen much on Hib, maybe more common on alb with pally but hib is alll about them pbaoe groups

Probably becaues bard the only endo support without dmg add I think.

Mon 21 Jan 2019 8:47 PM by Isavyr

For better or worse, the entire assassin experience is unoptimized.

Although leveling an assassin is much easier here than other servers, the incentives still don't encourage grouping assassins.
Once the assassin reaches 50, they ought to build a template, which has significantly higher expenditure to reach cap on everything--one of the main problems here is that there are multiple skill types, unlike casters or primary tanks which essentially have 1 type of skill (+magic, +melee respectively).
Then when you go out into RvR, you need buff potions to be competitive, which require PvE farming, in addition gold expenditure. And then the buffs don't last that long, so you'll have to reapply them often.
Maybe this will sound negative, but seeing as assassins are mostly gankers (the system doesn't encourage them to act as intel), maybe it isn't a huge loss to the gametype, though I'd love to see all of the above issues addressed.

Mon 21 Jan 2019 8:56 PM by SpoonyBard

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jan 2019 8:47 PM
For better or worse, the entire assassin experience is unoptimized.

Although leveling an assassin is much easier here than other servers, the incentives still don't encourage grouping assassins.
Once the assassin reaches 50, they ought to build a template, which has significantly higher expenditure to reach cap on everything--one of the main problems here is that there are multiple skill types, unlike casters or primary tanks which essentially have 1 type of skill (+magic, +melee respectively).
Then when you go out into RvR, you need buff potions to be competitive, which require PvE farming, in addition gold expenditure. And then the buffs don't last that long, so you'll have to reapply them often.
Maybe this will sound negative, but seeing as assassins are mostly gankers (the system doesn't encourage them to act as intel), maybe it isn't a huge loss to the gametype, though I'd love to see all of the above issues addressed.

This may be one of the leading reasons we see an inflation on farming classes in /serverinfo. People realize the investments that could be needed in RvR and are paving the way for those alternate classes on their accounts.

Mon 21 Jan 2019 10:07 PM by Cadebrennus

Komaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jan 2019 3:21 PM
It's the age old issue that has forever made Dark Age of Camelot very difficult for more casual players (e.g., having to go to work and stuff). It's the curse of the game to see all three realms spamming for (a) pbao (b) support classes.

The game is built to cater to these specific classes during leveling. This means that if you want to play a melee (God forbid) you are going to solo.

PBAOE
SUPPORT

And that's it....

Granted, you could say: Celerity healer + melee but trust me, on Midgard, no one cares. It's all LFM bomb/support ad infinitum.

So, melee classes are mostly solo which is really ugly for a game with so many great classes to choose from.

Which takes us to rogues...

Secondly, and what a huge issue this is as well, but if you play a rogue class you are instantly discounted as being group "friendly." The assumption of group friendly (logically) should be: you bring either tanking/dps/support to a group. We all know that archers might have some issues here (the everlasting challenge of taking a class that was able to turn the tide against French knights at the height of the 100-years War and War of Roses) but they can pull mobs from nearsite range and on Albion, you are an extraordinary shield tank. And yet, no one gives a turd about this.

Assassins are considered unviable for groups - even with Phoenix being kind to allow free respecs to 49, inspiring stealthers to focus on group friendly builds, and yet they are still regarded as non-entities.

So - melee is having a difficult situation (other than that rare tank invite for a pbaoe class on Midgard), and rogues have hell.

That being said - is there any sense of looking into this?

Here's a fun suggestion for inspiring groups to see rogues as people (again - general melee needs group mechanics love as well but I'll put some effort into the most ignored class of the game)

MDPS Rogues are given a group dps buff (doesn't stack) - something viable enough to matter - this works in RvR too because why not?
RDPS Rogues are given a ranged group dps buff (doesn't stack with other RDPS but will with MDPS) so casters even pbaoe casters will benefit.

Granted, it needs to be enough to make a difference.

Here's an even more fun suggestion:

What if an assassin class automatically increased a group's chance for special and unique items? Remember the old Dungeons and Dragons days where a rogue could be responsible for getting their party past traps, opening doors and chests (even in WoW), and finally, could increase a group's chances for gathering valuable treasure?

Recall the Hobbit? The party needed a burgler...

What if an archer class granted the party (RvR zone) a kind of tiny radar? In other words, your archer sees the enemy before they come or at least has a chance to pay attention to an alert on her mini-map that can aid her in warning her group? Add this to the previous ranged dps bonus and you have a chance to be invited as an archer in the revamp of DAoC 1.65.

These are just ideas...and I am begging the great developers of this potentially fun server (where everyone should be invited to play) to remember why everyone loves characters like Legolas and Drizzt Do'urden....and looks specifically at mmorpg titles that enable them to express their fantasy.

Anyway - I understand that my ideas will be giggled at and scouts, rangers, hunters, infiltrators, nightshades and shadowblades will have missed all the fun class changes in this version of DAoC as well.

But here's to hoping.

In some ways there's already a good deal of utility on the underutilized Stealther classes, but most players (including the Stealthers themselves) fail to see any way to make that synergy work in a Visi group.

I was leveling up a NS for a utility role until I realized how much I hated playing Elves and Luris. If Celt NS was a thing, I would still be leveling it. Here's the deal with Assassins;
1) They have a pretty neat RA that grants group evade. Not sure how effective it is, but I am very curious to see how it works as a backline defensive RA.
2) Their poisons are a guaranteed Snare and Weaponskill debuff. No other class in game can debuff Weaponskill, making Assassins ideal backline peelers
3) Disease poison - This makes Assassins ideal for two roles, a) as melee /assist, to help bring down a target faster, and b) back in the role as a backline peeler. Diseasing an overextended tank allows the backline casters to burst dps down said tank and giving them far less likelihood of being saved by their healer.

Here's the deal with Archers;
1) The NUMBER ONE ability for Archers in a group is ranged interrupts, especially with Rapid Fire. As it is now, however, Nearsight is the ability that screws over Casters and Archers equally in shutting down their ranged abilities. Nearsight needs to be REMOVED from the game, as it a) completely negates a primary skill line in a class (Archery) and b) lessens the role for an interrupter such as Archers, etc. If Nearsight was removed then Archery and particularly Rapid Fire become a more group friendly option when facing down Caster groups.
2) Other utility. Scouts are top of the game here. Scouts make excellent backline peelers with Slam and the anytime two-part snare in Thrust. They can also Guard the backline casters and /assist them when peeling/Guarding is not necessary. Rangers and Hunters are also good for caster /assist, especially when a target runs just out of cast range and is nearly dead, but not out of Bow range. Rangers and Hunters however, do not have as much easy backline peeling capability, requiring instead on positionals for stuns and snares.

Regarding Stealther utility in RvR groups, it can be done, but requires a different mindset on both the players of Visi and Stealther classes. IMO, it also requires the devs completely removing Nearsight. It has no place in this game. Some of the suggestions above are not bad, as a little more group utility can't hurt the classes. I would even suggest that having a Stealther (and in particular, an Archer) would increase the stealth detect radius of the group by 125 or 250 units. Perhaps having an Assassin in the group gives a group defensive buff to Body or Matter damage. Something like this wouldn't hurt the solo game, and only benefit the group game. It reminds me of Battlefield 2142 where inviting different classes in the group would have other tangible group benefits. For example, inviting the Recon class gave every player in the group a HUD showing enemies that have been detected by floating probes. Another class gave every player in the group the position of enemies on the map that have been detected by the floating probe, etc.