NEW RA BALANCE ON RVR - Phoenix Freeshard

NEW RA ALB MID HIB
ICHOR OF THE DEEP 2X 1X 3X
NEGATIVE MAESTROM 4X 2X 3X
DASHING DEFENCE 1X 1X 1X
SOLDIERS BARRICADE 1X 1X 1X
AMELIORATING MELODIES 1X 1X 1X
SPEED OF SOUND 1X 1X 1X
BEDAZZLING AURA 2X 2X 2X
JUGGERNAUT 2X 2X 1X
THORNWEED FIELD 1X 1X 1X
SATIC TEMPEST 1X 1X 2X
WRATH OF CHAMPIONS 1X 1X 1X
BARRIER OF FORTITUDE 1X 1X 1X
DIVINE INTERVENTION 1X 1X 1X
PERFECT RECOVERY 1X 1X 1X
DECIMATION TRAP 1X 1X 1X
VOLCANIC PILLAR 2X 1X 1X
VEHEMENT RENEWAL 2X 1X 1X
ANGER OF GODS 1X 1X 1X

All the implemented classic ras are totally equal and balanced.

All the new Ras which are Balanced:
purge/moc/empty mind/ip/Dashing Defence/Soldiers Barricade/Ameliorating Melodies/Speed of Sound/bedazzling Aura/Thornweed Field/Wrath of Champions/Barrier of Fortitude/Divine Intervention/Perfect Recoverey/Decimation Trap/Anger of Gods

All the new Ras which are unbalanced:
Ichor of the Deep/Negative Maelstrom/Juggernaut/Static Tempest/Volcanic Pillar/Vehement Renewal

I rly believe that all our gms are totally motivated making this server totally playerfriendly and as balanced as possible. That why i spend some time on this. I hope this can be on some point helpfull. We talked this issue with many expirienced players on disord internally and thought it should be definetly mentioned.

We also have some ideas to solve this issue if any gm interested on that just pm me.

Thx again for the great work on phoenix.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 10:07 AM by Pao

You don't think that your claimed unbalance is not a balance that was done?

Fri 11 Jan 2019 10:52 AM by kpax

well the new ra version is 1.121

Check all the abilitys and classes and ingame differences excisted that time. U cant just paste and copy it to Phoenix without adjustment.

Phoenix is a totally custom version where u need overthink any kind of change carefully.

And like the hard fact proved on that list ,there is a unbalance. Or with which argument u want to explain in your world of logic why for example one realm should have 3x ichor and another realm 1x. Pls explain this to me. Pls dont forget that at the time of the Patch 1.121 the game also had classes like valkyrie/banshee/warlock/vampyrie etc. which ofc effected the new ra distribution differently. As an example valkyrie and warlock get ichor on that patch.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 12:49 PM by Takii

You can't look at individual classes. This is a group based game.

100% of Mid and Alb groups will have Ichor because they will have a shaman and a sorc, regardless of how many classes have ichor in their realm.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 3:07 PM by opossum12

kpax wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 6:33 AM
NEW RA ALB MID HIB
ICHOR OF THE DEEP 2X 1X 3X
NEGATIVE MAESTROM 4X 2X 3X
DASHING DEFENCE 1X 1X 1X
SOLDIERS BARRICADE 1X 1X 1X
AMELIORATING MELODIES 1X 1X 1X
SPEED OF SOUND 1X 1X 1X
BEDAZZLING AURA 2X 2X 2X
JUGGERNAUT 2X 2X 1X
THORNWEED FIELD 1X 1X 1X
SATIC TEMPEST 1X 1X 2X
WRATH OF CHAMPIONS 1X 1X 1X
BARRIER OF FORTITUDE 1X 1X 1X
DIVINE INTERVENTION 1X 1X 1X
PERFECT RECOVERY 1X 1X 1X
DECIMATION TRAP 1X 1X 1X
VOLCANIC PILLAR 2X 1X 1X
VEHEMENT RENEWAL 2X 1X 1X
ANGER OF GODS 1X 1X 1X

All the implemented classic ras are totally equal and balanced.

All the new Ras which are Balanced:
purge/moc/empty mind/ip/Dashing Defence/Soldiers Barricade/Ameliorating Melodies/Speed of Sound/bedazzling Aura/Thornweed Field/Wrath of Champions/Barrier of Fortitude/Divine Intervention/Perfect Recoverey/Decimation Trap/Anger of Gods

All the new Ras which are unbalanced:
Ichor of the Deep/Negative Maelstrom/Juggernaut/Static Tempest/Volcanic Pillar/Vehement Renewal

I rly believe that all our gms are totally motivated making this server totally playerfriendly and as balanced as possible. That why i spend some time on this. I hope this can be on some point helpfull. We talked this issue with many expirienced players on disord internally and thought it should be definetly mentioned.

We also have some ideas to solve this issue if any gm interested on that just pm me.

Thx again for the great work on phoenix.

Couple things from your post.

1. Only RAs that trully matter are Ichor and ST. The others don't really have any sort of effect in rvr at any scale. Who cares about VP, NM, Jug and VR. VR is actually useful, but it's a group heal on a 15 minute timer that costs quite some points for the return, not a game changer at all.

2. So, if we focus on ichor first.
- Albs 2X / Mids 1X / Hibs 3X

What's the purpose of ichor? Resetting root immunity. So, to be strong, you need rooting classes.

Who has baseline root on all casters? Albs and mids.
Who doesn't have any baseline root on their casters? Hib (aside from Animist bomber root)

Who has ichor ability
- on Alb -> Sorc & necro : Sorc has baseline root and spec AE root, necro doesn't have root, so ichor isn't really useful. Ichor + ae root is best combo, so sorc is super strong choice.
- on Mid -> Shaman : he has baseline root and spec ae root. ichor + ae root is super strong combo.
- on Hib -> Eld, animist and VW. Eld doesn't have root, so not that powerful. VW does't have root, so not that powerful. Animist has spec AE root, so powerful combo.

Therefore, for ichor I see that only one class per realm has the ae root + ichor combo which is balanced.

Who has roots (baseline + spec)
Alb : sorc, cab, theurg, wiz
Mid : shaman, RM, SM, BD
Hib : druid, ani

So, it looks like the fact that hib has more ichor actually balances things out.

3. Let's focus on ST now
- Alb 1X / Mid 1X / Hib 2X

Mid has the most powerful combo for ST which is the healer ae stun. To say it isn't is just selective blindness. It is on a decent class too (Thane).
Alb has ST on the friar, which is arguably the worst class it could be on for a Group perspective (firars won't be grouped a whole lot).
Hib has by far the best combo with the Mentalist and Champ. Why exactly Hib has 2 ST classes I'm not sure.

So to say that things aren't balanced by just presenting a bunch of numbers without any sort of analysis is a very weak argument.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 4:08 PM by kpax

its not just presenting stuff without analyzing, it make no sence bringing a patchstand which never excisted in this combination. No idea how u cant get it. 1.121 never was this way, other classes excisted too and it was a totally different skill patch like warde/pala grp cele to pick one example or on the other side there were classes like mauler/warlock/banshee/vampyrie/heretic/valkyrie etc.. which effected the distribution of ras which are not excistent here.

Look what they did to classic ra...they took all realm specific abilitys away and made it equal . Then u need do that on new ra too. U dont need to overanalyze it. Still each realms have their strenghts and weaknesse considering their skills. But thats not the topic. It just dont makes sence.

And u can easiyl bring multipe ichor classes on alb or on hib, but honestly u want tell me someone will play with 2 shaman ?
or u can easily bring multiple static on hib 2menta+champ in grp as example and u have 3x static...how should that be realistic possible on alb or mid?

simple solution would be give the missing static/ichor on classes which are maybe less favorite in grp, which will hurt noone but definetly balance it more then the current setting. To split the missing ras on them can be a motivation getting them picked more often and would cause more variations on setups.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 5:16 PM by defiasbandit

Best way to buff Wizard was to give them Ichor, instead of copying pasting Eld+RM spells into Earthline. Even Eldritch have Ichor.

Whole reason Wizards were so weak was because resists made their damage mediocre. They have a single cc that is even worse due to New RA purge. Ichor gives them a second form of CC which is what they actually needed.

Eldritch best bolt caster has Ichor. Wizard and Runemaster no Ichor? Eldritch CC = Mez, Stun, Ichor? RM+Wizard CC= Root?

Midgard only has 1 ichor class, yet Hibernia magically has 3. Why would Sorcerer get Ichor instead of Wizard when they are strong already.

It is imbalanced.

Volcanic Pillar is perhaps the worst RA on this entire server. Look at this comparison.

Phoenix NEW RA

Volcanic Pillar: 30 Points, 600 damage, 2 second cast time, fall off damage.

Old RA

Volcanic Pillar: 14 Points, 750 damage, instant cast

Fri 11 Jan 2019 5:16 PM by opossum12

kpax wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 4:08 PM
its not just presenting stuff without analyzing, it make no sence bringing a patchstand which never excisted in this combination. No idea how u cant get it. 1.121 never was this way, other classes excisted too and it was a totally different skill patch like warde/pala grp cele to pick one example or on the other side there were classes like mauler/warlock/banshee/vampyrie/heretic/valkyrie etc.. which effected the distribution of ras which are not excistent here.

I get it, but I think my explanation works, don't you think? You are talking about class skills (celerity on warden and paladin) but the thread is about RAs. They are two different topics. I understand the point you are trying to make, but to say all RAs need to be distributed evenly because at that patch level skills were distributed evenly doesn't really make sense.

For sure Warlock having Ichor balanced things for mid (warlock is another ae root class with ichor by the way, so very strong).

kpax wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 4:08 PM
Look what they did to classic ra...they took all realm specific abilitys away and made it equal . Then u need do that on new ra too. U dont need to overanalyze it. Still each realms have their strenghts and weaknesse considering their skills. But thats not the topic. It just dont makes sence.

You do an analysis based on just plain numbers and then say to not analyze it?

The switch from OF RAs to NNF RAs was two fold: first was to remove the stupid iWin RAs (alb SoS, hib GP) to balance out the realms, because having these RAs up dramatically increased your chance of winning a fight. Secondly, OF RAs were mostly based on long re-use timers because of the way we had the timed portal pads at that time.

kpax wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 4:08 PM
And u can easiyl bring multipe ichor classes on alb or on hib, but honestly u want tell me someone will play with 2 shaman ?
or u can easily bring multiple static on hib 2menta+champ in grp as example and u have 3x static...how should that be realistic possible on alb or mid?

simple solution would be give the missing static/ichor on classes which are maybe less favorite in grp, which will hurt noone but definetly balance it more then the current setting. To split the missing ras on them can be a motivation getting them picked more often and would cause more variations on setups.

Yes you could bring more ichor classes in hib groups, if you really wanted to. Again, let's look at who has ichor

Alb : Sorc = in every alb group & necro (who cares he doesn't even have root)
Mid : Shaman = in every mid group
Hib : Eld = very strong class, in most (not all) hib group but doesn't have a root // VW, strong class, will most likely be very little played in groups // Animist, decent class, will almost not be played at all in groups.

Do you realize that having ichor on mandatory group classes that possess root and ae root spells is a huge advantage for mid and alb? That's a pretty simple thing to understand. You don't need to actually make a choice to have ichor, it is always there.

On Hib, you first need to fit a ichor class (will most likely be the Eldritch). Then, you need to coordinate to get ichor off and have your druid (nature spec!!) to Ae root people.

So.... I think you can see that mid and alb have the easy life for ichor and maximizing ichor. So how do you balance it out? Give AE roots to Eldritch or give ichor to more classes? Looks like option #2 was chosen.

I mean it's been a couple people posting "suggestions" without any sort of thought behind it.

You say "hey look mid only has 1 ichor, they suck and should get 3!" but totally fail to see that every mid caster has root and the class having ichor is a rooting class.

Balancing MMOs is difficult and the easy way out of it is just to mirror everything. DAoC is a great game because not everything is mirrored. If you want mirror go play WoW.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 5:19 PM by defiasbandit

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 5:16 PM
kpax wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 4:08 PM
its not just presenting stuff without analyzing, it make no sence bringing a patchstand which never excisted in this combination. No idea how u cant get it. 1.121 never was this way, other classes excisted too and it was a totally different skill patch like warde/pala grp cele to pick one example or on the other side there were classes like mauler/warlock/banshee/vampyrie/heretic/valkyrie etc.. which effected the distribution of ras which are not excistent here.
I get it, but I think my explanation works, don't you think? You are talking about class skills (celerity on warden and paladin) but the thread is about RAs. They are two different topics. I understand the point you are trying to make, but to say all RAs need to be distributed evenly because at that patch level skills were distributed evenly doesn't really make sense.

For sure Warlock having Ichor balanced things for mid (warlock is another ae root class with ichor by the way, so very strong).

kpax wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 4:08 PM
Look what they did to classic ra...they took all realm specific abilitys away and made it equal . Then u need do that on new ra too. U dont need to overanalyze it. Still each realms have their strenghts and weaknesse considering their skills. But thats not the topic. It just dont makes sence.

You do an analysis based on just plain numbers and then say to not analyze it?

The switch from OF RAs to NNF RAs was two fold: first was to remove the stupid iWin RAs (alb SoS, hib GP) to balance out the realms, because having these RAs up dramatically increased your chance of winning a fight. Secondly, OF RAs were mostly based on long re-use timers because of the way we had the timed portal pads at that time.

kpax wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 4:08 PM
And u can easiyl bring multipe ichor classes on alb or on hib, but honestly u want tell me someone will play with 2 shaman ?
or u can easily bring multiple static on hib 2menta+champ in grp as example and u have 3x static...how should that be realistic possible on alb or mid?

simple solution would be give the missing static/ichor on classes which are maybe less favorite in grp, which will hurt noone but definetly balance it more then the current setting. To split the missing ras on them can be a motivation getting them picked more often and would cause more variations on setups.

Yes you could bring more ichor classes in hib groups, if you really wanted to. Again, let's look at who has ichor

Alb : Sorc = in every alb group & necro (who cares he doesn't even have root)
Mid : Shaman = in every mid group
Hib : Eld = very strong class, in most (not all) hib group but doesn't have a root // VW, strong class, will most likely be very little played in groups // Animist, decent class, will almost not be played at all in groups.

Do you realize that having ichor on mandatory group classes that possess root and ae root spells is a huge advantage for mid and alb? That's a pretty simple thing to understand. You don't need to actually make a choice to have ichor, it is always there.

On Hib, you first need to fit a ichor class (will most likely be the Eldritch). Then, you need to coordinate to get ichor off and have your druid (nature spec!!) to Ae root people.

So.... I think you can see that mid and alb have the easy life for ichor and maximizing ichor. So how do you balance it out? Give AE roots to Eldritch or give ichor to more classes? Looks like option #2 was chosen.

I mean it's been a couple people posting "suggestions" without any sort of thought behind it.

You say "hey look mid only has 1 ichor, they suck and should get 3!" but totally fail to see that every mid caster has root and the class having ichor is a rooting class.

Balancing MMOs is difficult and the easy way out of it is just to mirror everything. DAoC is a great game because not everything is mirrored. If you want mirror go play WoW.

The devs implemented New RAs because they found them easier to balance. Their goal was partly to mirror RAs across the realms. Yet 3 Hibernia classes get access to Ichor. You are right DAOC was about how unique the classes were. Well guess what? The recent RA and class changes have mostly discarded that. So why are we picking and choosing which realm gets more of core RAs like Ichor.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 5:52 PM by opossum12

I’m not nit-picking who has ichor.

I’m giving you a detailed and intelligent answer as to why I believe ichor is balanced considering how it is used.

Ichor is a root, hib has less roots so they get more Ichor, pretty simple math.

If you want to look at later parches, do you have a clue how they fixed that? They gave enchanters baseline roots and Eldritch a spec root.

If you want to propose things, you can always look st abilities in their whole instead of saying « devs wanted to mirror stuff »

Fri 11 Jan 2019 6:52 PM by defiasbandit

Ya we get it you play Hibernia.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 7:10 PM by opossum12

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 6:52 PM
Ya we get it you play Hibernia.

ANd now you wonder why 99% of the devs and community have you muted?

Fri 11 Jan 2019 7:16 PM by defiasbandit

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 7:10 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 6:52 PM
Ya we get it you play Hibernia.

ANd now you wonder why 99% of the devs and community have you muted?

Im pointing out imbalance on the server. Eldritch is way better than RM or Wizard. Hib have 3 Ichor classes. Mid has one. Eld has 3 CC. RM and Wiz have 1 CC.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 7:28 PM by daocgod

Wizard will never be viable, sorry.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 7:58 PM by defiasbandit

daocgod wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 7:28 PM
Wizard will never be viable, sorry.

With Ichor they can be.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 8:05 PM by opossum12

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 7:16 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 7:10 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 6:52 PM
Ya we get it you play Hibernia.

And now you wonder why 99% of the devs and community have you muted?

Im pointing out imbalance on the server. Eldritch is way better than RM or Wizard. Hib have 3 Ichor classes. Mid has one. Eld has 3 CC. RM and Wiz have 1 CC.

Eld is not WAY better than RM. It is better for some things. trade disease for pbt on RM, that's a pretty good deal.

Wizards don't suffer from lack of tools. Wizards suffer from not being on the Body train. Wizards can be in groups on live because their fire DD is 229 delve with a 10% debuff to it. It nukes a debuffed target for 800+. Their cold DD is 219 delve + 10% cold debuff. Wizards have good synergy with heretics fire damage. Because of that the Sorc can find it worthwhile to debuff for them.

The wizard's saving grace is to have so much damage that its DPS outshines its lack of utility. Phoenix devs went the utility route instead of the dps route, not sure that was the good move.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 8:14 PM by defiasbandit

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 8:05 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 7:16 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jan 2019 7:10 PM
And now you wonder why 99% of the devs and community have you muted?

Im pointing out imbalance on the server. Eldritch is way better than RM or Wizard. Hib have 3 Ichor classes. Mid has one. Eld has 3 CC. RM and Wiz have 1 CC.

Eld is not WAY better than RM. It is better for some things. trade disease for pbt on RM, that's a pretty good deal.

Wizards don't suffer from lack of tools. Wizards suffer from not being on the Body train. Wizards can be in groups on live because their fire DD is 229 delve with a 10% debuff to it. It nukes a debuffed target for 800+. Their cold DD is 219 delve + 10% cold debuff. Wizards have good synergy with heretics fire damage. Because of that the Sorc can find it worthwhile to debuff for them.

The wizard's saving grace is to have so much damage that its DPS outshines its lack of utility. Phoenix devs went the utility route instead of the dps route, not sure that was the good move.

It was not a good move. Wizards should have builtin debuffs on fire and ice like they do on live. Ichor opens up so many possibilities for wizards as well. Ichor makes fire and ice way more viable.

Sat 12 Jan 2019 1:21 AM by Takii

As a light Eld on a server with Det on hybrids, I'll gladly trade my stun and shitty AoE mezz for a baseline single target root.