ice wizards / fire wizards - Phoenix Freeshard

I played a wizard in the original 1.65 era, flipping between fire and ice for a change of pace. In fact, I was consistently one of the top 5 wizzies in weekly RPs for many months.

And let me tell you, it was rough.

Under 1.65, wizards were widely viewed as the red-headed stepchild caster across all 3 realms. They focus solely on damage with minimal utility, debuffs, or CC -- and yet they could not pump out single-target damage comparable to their counterparts due to the resists system.

I appreciate that the Phoenix developers have tried to remedy this shortfall by inserting resist debuffs into the earth line, but the perverse outcome is that an earth wizzy will now pump out better single-target ice or fire damage than an actual ice or fire wizzy.

On live, the wizard's shortcomings were eventually remedied with buffs (+dmg, +resist debuff) to the spec nukes in both the ice and fire lines, as well as the addition of AE disease in the ice line. I know that the Phoenix developers do not intend to make many changes beyond 1.65, but I think the subsequent wizard buffs were an acknowledgement that wizards needed help.

Ice, especially, is objectively worse than its Hib and Mid PBAoE counterparts and could lead to a scarcity of PBAoE (and thereby weaker keep defense) for Albs.

Wed 9 Jan 2019 4:03 AM by Isavyr

Basically all casters suffer from being hugely nerfed by resists. This makes debuffs really strong, and this problem you refer to isn't unique to Earth spec, but is instead universal; a spirit cab will do more body damage than a body cab, a mana enchanter will do more light damage than a light enchanter, a runecarving runemaster will do more cold damage than a Darkness runemaster.

This is not a new problem, and the change Phoenix devs made doesn't change this formula, so in that sense it fits into the current game very well.

On the other hand, if we wanted to see casters better rounded, it would probably be fair to add something like a 15% resist penetration to all spec-line nukes. Otherwise the problem you stated will always be the case.

PS. Ice wizards were poorly designed with nothing worthwhile but for their PBAOE. The specline needs serious love, but then, so do other classes/specs (matter Sorc, light & enchant Enchanter, mentalism Mentalist, to name a few). While the ice wizard plays a fundamental part of RvR--more so than the mentioned niche specs, to which the other realms don't have an equal--at least take comfort that ice wizard is relatively better than it was before as it now has offspec Nearsight.

Wed 9 Jan 2019 4:52 AM by defiasbandit

Fore29 wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jan 2019 3:31 AM
I played a wizard in the original 1.65 era, flipping between fire and ice for a change of pace. In fact, I was consistently one of the top 5 wizzies in weekly RPs for many months.

And let me tell you, it was rough.

Under 1.65, wizards were widely viewed as the red-headed stepchild caster across all 3 realms. They focus solely on damage with minimal utility, debuffs, or CC -- and yet they could not pump out single-target damage comparable to their counterparts due to the resists system.

I appreciate that the Phoenix developers have tried to remedy this shortfall by inserting resist debuffs into the earth line, but the perverse outcome is that an earth wizzy will now pump out better single-target ice or fire damage than an actual ice or fire wizzy.

On live, the wizard's shortcomings were eventually remedied with buffs (+dmg, +resist debuff) to the spec nukes in both the ice and fire lines, as well as the addition of AE disease in the ice line. I know that the Phoenix developers do not intend to make many changes beyond 1.65, but I think the subsequent wizard buffs were an acknowledgement that wizards needed help.

Ice, especially, is objectively worse than its Hib and Mid PBAoE counterparts and could lead to a scarcity of PBAoE (and thereby weaker keep defense) for Albs.

I've been here since start of Beta. You are 100% right. The earth buffs are disrespectful to the Wizard class. Fire and Ice have been left untouched on this server, and PBAE is way worse here than it was back in 1.65.

Fire and Ice should have been buffed not Earth. The Earth buffs are clunky and attempt to render ice and fire useless. It's embarrassing.

I offered many suggestions to buff Ice and Fire, and instead we got this bogus Earth spec.

Wed 9 Jan 2019 5:04 AM by Isavyr

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jan 2019 4:52 AM
The earth buffs are disrespectful to the Wizard class. Fire and Ice have been left untouched on this server, and PBAE is way worse here than it was back in 1.65.

Even if PBAOE were to hit through walls, the problem with it is that people aren't baited by enemies the same way they were in 1.65. That makes a huge difference, as PBAOE often relies on your enemies coming to you (keep lords and milegates being infamous examples).

Secondly, the earth tools provided benefit both ice and fire, as offspec Earth provides nearsight.

I don't know what you would have wanted, but the change seems totally in-line with what the game has provided, which is to say, imperfect but good enough.

Wed 9 Jan 2019 11:51 AM by Fore29

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jan 2019 5:04 AM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jan 2019 4:52 AM
The earth buffs are disrespectful to the Wizard class. Fire and Ice have been left untouched on this server, and PBAE is way worse here than it was back in 1.65.

Even if PBAOE were to hit through walls, the problem with it is that people aren't baited by enemies the same way they were in 1.65. That makes a huge difference, as PBAOE often relies on your enemies coming to you (keep lords and milegates being infamous examples).

Secondly, the earth tools provided benefit both ice and fire, as offspec Earth provides nearsight.

I don't know what you would have wanted, but the change seems totally in-line with what the game has provided, which is to say, imperfect but good enough.

While the off-spec nearsight is appreciated, my main point is that wizards are purportedly about damage, and yet ice and fire wizards will do sub-par damage. I know, from firsthand experience more than a decade ago, that this is true, and how dispiriting it can be.

And there is precedent for the Phoenix developers to proactively, or at least quickly react to, remedy this. (1) they recognized that Paladins and Friars needed damage boosts and increased both of their damage tables from the 1.65 era, (2) they recognized that leaving the Runemaster's base runecarving nuke at 3.0 sec cast was a relic of 1.65, and brought it down to the Live version of 2.6 sec.

So the Phoenix Developers have shown that they are willing to go beyond the boundaries of 1.65 to correct a balance issue. My argument is that wizards had an undeniable deficit when it came to damage in 1.65, and the developers should consider buffs to their single-target damage, whether through the changes that are on Live (which incidentally also includes off-spec nearsight, but alone was deemed insufficient as a band-aid) or through other creative means.

Wed 9 Jan 2019 5:23 PM by defiasbandit

Of course Fire and Ice need more damage. They should have built in debuffs. Instead of buffing Wizard fire damage, they nerfed Volcanic Pillar the 30 point RA. It is near useless on this server now. Wizards were unique for being pure damage casters. Instead of properly adjusting fire/ice damage, they redid the Earth spec and tried to copy eld/runemasters abilities. It is a mockery of the Wizard class.

Wed 9 Jan 2019 5:36 PM by BaldEagle

Wizards are good for relic raids and such. They tried to make earth spec so they can be viable for 8mans. I suppose they are now. You can still go fire and 2 bolt people when keep defending.

Wed 9 Jan 2019 6:00 PM by Pedro

It all depends on your play style really.

For PvE they are great with PBAoE, even the fire AoE.

For 8man, probably not.

For guild/alliance raids (multiple groups), it doesn't really matter the class distribution so you'll be good anyway.

So it all comes down to what you want to play and how you plan to play.

Wed 9 Jan 2019 9:00 PM by radix

Pathetic.

True, you don't get an Ench in Alb.
But every main spec has its purpose and unique spells (2 bolts+aoe dd // pbaoe+aoe root // NS+self debuff).
For the first time in Daoc history, there is a real reason to spec earth. And ppl still complaining.

Btw on Phoenix SM is by far the worst pbaoe class for RvR. BY FAR.

For 8man you can now play earth/ice wiz + ice/earth theurg as a debuff team. Or play with 2 wiz (earth/fire and fire/ice) for max. dps and utility.
I would love to play a setup like that.

Wed 9 Jan 2019 9:03 PM by defiasbandit

radix wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jan 2019 9:00 PM
Pathetic.

True, you don't get an Ench in Alb.
But every main spec has its purpose and unique spells (2 bolts+aoe dd // pbaoe+aoe root // NS+self debuff).
For the first time in Daoc history, there is a real reason to spec earth. And ppl still complaining.

Btw on Phoenix SM is by far the worst pbaoe class for RvR. BY FAR.

For 8man you can now play earth/ice wiz + ice/earth theurg as a debuff team. Or play with 2 wiz (earth/fire and fire/ice) for max. dps and utility.
I would love to play a setup like that.

Wizards are a damage dealing caster. 1.65 ruined wizards due to resists. Wizards are about fire and ice, not earth. Why copy paste eld/rm abilities onto a Wizard and try to make Earth viable. It just ruins the uniqueness of the realm classes. The solution should have been to give Wizards more damage in fire and ice, and something creative like Ichor. The Wizard changes are abominable.

Wed 9 Jan 2019 9:10 PM by radix

Feel free to play ice or fire, no one forces you to spec earth

Or team up with an earth wiz and unleash the true power of your ice or fire spec.

But pls stop crying.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 7:37 PM by daocgod

The best thing that could have been done was add nearsight to earth and disease to ice like live did. The class would still be inferior as a fourth caster but atleast it wouldn't be downright awful.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 7:48 PM by teiloh

radix wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jan 2019 9:00 PM
Btw on Phoenix SM is by far the worst pbaoe class for RvR. BY FAR.

For 8man you can now play earth/ice wiz + ice/earth theurg as a debuff team. Or play with 2 wiz (earth/fire and fire/ice) for max. dps and utility.
I would love to play a setup like that.

Nope. If SM has pet intercept in this version, they're the best - and they are on the realm with AOE stun.

And you clearly don't play Alb if you think running a 2 Wiz debuff train is in any way special or viable, really. A Theurg is also not going to be able to switch off petting/CCing to use his trash base DD. Also, almost no Theurgs spec high in ice, because Ice pets don't improve appreciably past 25 spec and the line is generally bad for anything other than interrupts ... which can be provided by lower level Ice pets.

If you were thinking the Wiz could debuff for the Theurg's pets, they do Spirit damage, rather than Cold.

Wed 16 Jan 2019 10:33 PM by Cadebrennus

Fore29 wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jan 2019 3:31 AM
I played a wizard in the original 1.65 era, flipping between fire and ice for a change of pace. In fact, I was consistently one of the top 5 wizzies in weekly RPs for many months.

And let me tell you, it was rough.

Under 1.65, wizards were widely viewed as the red-headed stepchild caster across all 3 realms. They focus solely on damage with minimal utility, debuffs, or CC -- and yet they could not pump out single-target damage comparable to their counterparts due to the resists system.

I appreciate that the Phoenix developers have tried to remedy this shortfall by inserting resist debuffs into the earth line, but the perverse outcome is that an earth wizzy will now pump out better single-target ice or fire damage than an actual ice or fire wizzy.

On live, the wizard's shortcomings were eventually remedied with buffs (+dmg, +resist debuff) to the spec nukes in both the ice and fire lines, as well as the addition of AE disease in the ice line. I know that the Phoenix developers do not intend to make many changes beyond 1.65, but I think the subsequent wizard buffs were an acknowledgement that wizards needed help.

Ice, especially, is objectively worse than its Hib and Mid PBAoE counterparts and could lead to a scarcity of PBAoE (and thereby weaker keep defense) for Albs.

Welcome to the world of Archers.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 5:41 PM by radix

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jan 2019 7:48 PM
radix wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jan 2019 9:00 PM
Btw on Phoenix SM is by far the worst pbaoe class for RvR. BY FAR.

For 8man you can now play earth/ice wiz + ice/earth theurg as a debuff team. Or play with 2 wiz (earth/fire and fire/ice) for max. dps and utility.
I would love to play a setup like that.

Nope. If SM has pet intercept in this version, they're the best - and they are on the realm with AOE stun.

And you clearly don't play Alb if you think running a 2 Wiz debuff train is in any way special or viable, really. A Theurg is also not going to be able to switch off petting/CCing to use his trash base DD. Also, almost no Theurgs spec high in ice, because Ice pets don't improve appreciably past 25 spec and the line is generally bad for anything other than interrupts ... which can be provided by lower level Ice pets.

If you were thinking the Wiz could debuff for the Theurg's pets, they do Spirit damage, rather than Cold.

SM vs Ench/Eld, you cant be serious

And 25-30 in ice is enough to have a solid baseline ice nuke as theurg.

Well, seems like our view of things is too far apart.
And fyi, played rr11 Wiz 2001-2004, so I know the class and the wizard's situation in alb 8man comps.

Thu 17 Jan 2019 7:27 PM by teiloh

And fyi, played rr11 Wiz 2001-2004, so I know the class and the wizard's situation in alb 8man comps.

That doesn't say much. Have any of us heard of your Wiz? Anyone can get RR11. The first RR11s on our servers were among the worst players I've ever encountered.

There is no Theurg spec, really, that calls for 25-30 in Ice other than 45a/25c. They're very uncommon for a reason.

SM vs Ench/Eld, you cant be serious

A SM is flat-out better at PBAE than both Ench and Eld because of pet intercept, not to even count group synergy. If you're arguing that they're not the better class in general, you might have something.