Tank Discussion - Hybrids on top now?

I've only experienced beta for two weeks now. I noticed hybrids doing really good. Two days ago Raunz was just wrecking in 5v5 with a VW & Champ combo, and was wondering how this would translate to 8v8.

I've had enough experience on beta to tell that Champions are just as tanky as Blademasters and Heros on this server, and they do more damage. But I still yet to experience how tanky Valewalkers are. An additional question I have here is, "Are all Champions tanky? Or is it just Shar Champs?"

Do you think it would be better going forward to replace Blademasters with Champions and maybe Valewalkers?

I use to think Bard, Druid, Druid, Warden, Hero, Blademaster, Blademaster, Blademaster was the strongest hib tanker, and it probably has been in the past. But now I wonder how a Bard, Druid, Druid, Warden, Hero, Champion, Champion, Champion comp would do. Maybe even throw a Valewalker in there.

Something I noticed with Static Tempest is if you drop it on your target and slam him, he gets stunlocked and it reallys screws with the peel tank's ability to guard / intercept. Someone usually ends up dead.

Mon 3 Dec 2018 4:18 AM by cortexqc

i'm not a champion pro gamer but on the paper.
- Hero hit harder than champion with same weapons LW when buffed (group setup) and blademaster hit less per hit but have better average dps.
- Hero and BM have stoicism champion not
- Hero and BM have big HP pool (around 2000+ buffed) champion 1700 1800
- Hero have Morph +50% hp pool/instant heal BM have triple wield + charge
- Hero can make a build 50LW 42shield 39blade to be adaptive DPS/DEF and BM can have a build including slam, champion have to choose LW + good valor buff/debuff or LW+42shield and medium Valor debuff.
- Champion can debuff and interups with distant spells the 2 others can't

with all this point the balance is not for champion... yes champion can have a slot on the side of hero or BM but can't replace them.
a good setup can be a trio hero/bm/champ but pretty sure 3 champ can't replace hero or BM and have the same results/performances.

i'm not elitist and i play and group with all casual type group but i'm realist about all class performance.
i think the best advantage for champ is solo/small group but when 8 group setup it's good class but the 2 other melee of hib are better if you can choose.

Mon 3 Dec 2018 4:24 AM by Sepplord

I think cortex summarized it pretty well, just one thing to note: there is no charge here, otherwise it would be a no-brainer

Mon 3 Dec 2018 5:19 AM by Vitticus

Yeah, you guys are right. I thought that DD would add an extra punch to push them up.

How about in a 5 natty context?

Bard
Bard
Druid
Druid
Warden
Hero
X
X

What combo do you think would rip the fastest?
(1) Champ Valewalker
(2) Champ Blademaster
(3) Blademaster Blademaster

Mon 3 Dec 2018 8:25 AM by Cadebrennus

Cortex is pretty on point. That Champ DD is brutal though. Hits as hard as an arrow, just not as the same frequency thank goodness.

Mon 3 Dec 2018 11:22 AM by Druth

Vitticus wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 5:19 AM
What combo do you think would rip the fastest?
(1) Champ Valewalker
(2) Champ Blademaster
(3) Blademaster Blademaster

I love VW, but 2) is best.
BM/BM is also great, but think the debuffs are amazing supplement to assists.
VW can in no way land the same amount of spike damage that Champs can (debuff+DD+style), plus ST > Ichor in the current form.

If VW got better disease form, it might change, but 15% is way to low proc chance for it to be worthwhile.

Mon 3 Dec 2018 11:55 AM by Shamus777

Hero and BM have stoicism champion does not.

I honestly didn't know this. I thought heros got RA Det and that's it.

Mon 3 Dec 2018 1:01 PM by Druth

No stoicism is okay, in return for the debuff+dd from champ.
But 2 hybrids without charge is to vulnerable to a well-placed CC.

Mon 3 Dec 2018 1:07 PM by Kaziera

I dont think nf charge exists?

Edit: also the most Important is the snare from champ aswell as the root from vw. Casters have zero chance

Mon 3 Dec 2018 1:24 PM by Druth

VW is no root, it's a weaker version of the champ snare.

Mon 3 Dec 2018 1:51 PM by cortexqc

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 4:24 AM
I think cortex summarized it pretty well, just one thing to note: there is no charge here, otherwise it would be a no-brainer

there is no RA charge but BM/Merc have charge as a skill.

Mon 3 Dec 2018 2:04 PM by Kaziera

The old crapy one or the nf op one?

It used to be the old crappy of charge, but did they change that?

Mon 3 Dec 2018 3:04 PM by Sepplord

cortexqc wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 1:51 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 4:24 AM
I think cortex summarized it pretty well, just one thing to note: there is no charge here, otherwise it would be a no-brainer

there is no RA charge but BM/Merc have charge as a skill.

Woods, forgot about that, sorry

Mon 3 Dec 2018 8:06 PM by Vitticus

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 2:04 PM
The old crapy one or the nf op one?

It used to be the old crappy of charge, but did they change that?

It's still the old crappy one

Mon 3 Dec 2018 11:44 PM by cortexqc

Vitticus wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 8:06 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 2:04 PM
The old crapy one or the nf op one?

It used to be the old crappy of charge, but did they change that?

It's still the old crappy one

even if it's the old crappy one, is free and is one more reason to prefer BM vs champ.

Tue 4 Dec 2018 6:01 AM by Ceen

cortexqc wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 11:44 PM
Vitticus wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 8:06 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 2:04 PM
The old crapy one or the nf op one?

It used to be the old crappy of charge, but did they change that?

It's still the old crappy one

even if it's the old crappy one, is free and is one more reason to prefer BM vs champ.

Tue 4 Dec 2018 6:33 AM by Kaziera

cortexqc wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 11:44 PM
Vitticus wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 8:06 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 2:04 PM
The old crapy one or the nf op one?

It used to be the old crappy of charge, but did they change that?

It's still the old crappy one

even if it's the old crappy one, is free and is one more reason to prefer BM vs champ.

No its not. Its useless. Read what it does, think about it and then come again.

Tue 4 Dec 2018 2:01 PM by cortexqc

anymay charge is not the subject.
BM need charge to be better for champ? no
Hero too? no

Tue 11 Dec 2018 4:17 AM by cortexqc

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Dec 2018 6:33 AM
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 11:44 PM
Vitticus wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 8:06 PM
It's still the old crappy one

even if it's the old crappy one, is free and is one more reason to prefer BM vs champ.

No its not. Its useless. Read what it does, think about it and then come again.

i don't know NF RA charge but on phoenix when i see the charge tooltip i can read 74% speed increase 15s cannot be stunned, rooted, snared, or mesmerised
Cooldown 3mn. when i use it it give me the speed boost so i think other bonus are correct too. so since on live is the same but with 1.30mn CD for 30 RA point... it's not so bad for free ? or maybe the tooltip is bug and it's really bad.

Tue 11 Dec 2018 7:32 PM by Kaziera

cortexqc wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Dec 2018 4:17 AM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Dec 2018 6:33 AM
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 11:44 PM
even if it's the old crappy one, is free and is one more reason to prefer BM vs champ.

No its not. Its useless. Read what it does, think about it and then come again.

i don't know NF RA charge but on phoenix when i see the charge tooltip i can read 74% speed increase 15s cannot be stunned, rooted, snared, or mesmerised
Cooldown 3mn. when i use it it give me the speed boost so i think other bonus are correct too. so since on live is the same but with 1.30mn CD for 30 RA point... it's not so bad for free ? or maybe the tooltip is bug and it's really bad.

its wrong. it does not do that. it lets you sprint for the duration without cost. just tested it.

why did you read the tooltip and not test it ? wth ?

Wed 12 Dec 2018 10:08 AM by Gnarrg

Only somewhat related to this discussion - but I've long wanted to play a Luri tank, either spear/shield hero or LW/shield champ. Has anyone played this recently and can tell me whether it's at a feasible build? I'm aware of the lower dps output, but I'm interested how bad it really is.

Wed 12 Dec 2018 11:23 AM by Kaziera

On other servers it was a dps loss of about 20%. Defense was total (block parry evade ) about 8% better. All compared to bolg

I guess its along those lines. But for this server you can go ahead and test that yourself.

If you level at any other trainer than in ligen, you can stay rr1 and test at base lvl.

Wed 12 Dec 2018 11:53 AM by opossum12

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Dec 2018 11:23 AM
On other servers it was a dps loss of about 20%. Defense was total (block parry evade ) about 8% better. All compared to bolg

I guess its along those lines. But for this server you can go ahead and test that yourself.

If you level at any other trainer than in ligen, you can stay rr1 and test at base lvl.

You mainly play a luri hero either for the race (you like the looks and size) or for the shield weaponskill increase, since shield WS is dex based. I’m not sure what’s the difference in shield ws between a firby and a luri, but higher dex should help you land slam more regularly.

Wed 12 Dec 2018 8:46 PM by Vitticus

I think Luri hero would excel as a peel tank. They have a lot of dexterity making it a little harder for opponent warriors and arms to take them out of the fight. The higher quickness allows for more plays. Their harder to see especially if you go undyed.

But the downside I'm seeing in beta is that bards don't play endo, and with the end 3 pots, you can only make 6 plays in a row while sprinting before you run out of endurance. Since Luri swings so fast, this goes down real quick. If end 5 is up though, you can probably make 12 plays before a Firbolg hero makes 8.

Thu 13 Dec 2018 1:59 AM by Isavyr

Vitticus wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Dec 2018 8:46 PM
I think Luri hero would excel as a peel tank. They have a lot of dexterity making it a little harder for opponent warriors and arms to take them out of the fight. The higher quickness allows for more plays. Their harder to see especially if you go undyed.

But the downside I'm seeing in beta is that bards don't play endo, and with the end 3 pots, you can only make 6 plays in a row while sprinting before you run out of endurance. Since Luri swings so fast, this goes down real quick. If end 5 is up though, you can probably make 12 plays before a Firbolg hero makes 8.

I bet you 10 points that Luri damage ends up being equivalent damage to Firbolg. But you have to do the testing ;-)

Also, endo use is adjusted for attack speed, so your endo use should roughly be the same, as far as I know.

Thu 13 Dec 2018 3:11 AM by Gnarrg

That sounds really interesting, so luri with 42 shield for slams and 50 spear for back snares would be your choice or rather 50 backstun style of lw?

Thu 13 Dec 2018 7:55 AM by Koljar

There is a postin the suggestions forum (look for the 360° parry for berserks) that statest that a valkyn savage outdamages a troll just by attacking faster (due to much more quickness).

You might want to check if/how that applies to the bolg vs. lurikeen fian. It's basically the same Basis (high str with more WS vs. lower WS (less STR) but quicker).

Which leadas to the question: Does a firbolg fian really outdamage a lurikeen hero? Basically the same thing you could to ask yourself as I posted there: Hitting less often but more reliably vs. accepting a few more misses but attacking more often.
And in this case (lurikeen): Having higher dex and thus a higher shield-WS (which is not displayed anywhere) and I haven't seen someone test how often they can land slam with different ammounts of dex vs. the same target. You can't test that vs. the dummies but you could test it in a /duel i guess.

Fri 14 Dec 2018 5:32 AM by Vitticus

Actually, I'm going to go back on my Luri statement. This might sound far fetch since everyone is RR14 on beta right now. I been testing Valkyn Warrior. They have same con as Luri, and I got 1 shotted by a Blademaster, Blademaster, Hero assist train. I imagine Luri could have the same problem.

Fri 14 Dec 2018 6:26 AM by Shamus777

Vitticus wrote: ↑
Fri 14 Dec 2018 5:32 AM
Actually, I'm going to go back on my Luri statement. This might sound far fetch since everyone is RR14 on beta right now. I been testing Valkyn Warrior. They have same con as Luri, and I got 1 shotted by a Blademaster, Blademaster, Hero assist train. I imagine Luri could have the same problem.

Celt it is!

Fri 4 Jan 2019 12:58 PM by Dahuun

Stk > quick i think

Fri 4 Jan 2019 4:05 PM by russell_m89

Anyone weigh in on the efficacy of a Piercemaster for this server? So far I've been reading it's doable, Firbolg might be the best choice because they can spec out of it and into anything else if they wanted to, plus the hybrid damage of Str/Dex - and on the flip-side I think an Elf would work well because of the extra quickness.

Thoughts?