Give Zerkers 360 degree parry - Phoenix Freeshard

Some defensive love, literally no reason to play one over a savage... just a thought to see more in pvp.

Fri 7 Dec 2018 7:05 AM by Isavyr

Giving light-tanks more defense is surely not the answer.

In fact, doing so is adding to the problem of what created this situation in the first place--a light-tank (savage) was given too much defense. Remove 360 degree evade from Savage, and you have a more balanced class, and a comparatively better berserker.

Sat 8 Dec 2018 8:43 AM by Foadon

the whole point of different realms and different classes are advantages (sometimes being OP on paper) vs disdavantages

savage has the advantage of having superior defense along with abilities to boost it even further, vs the disadvantage of not being DW and "unreliable" damage - sometimes good sometimes bad wih h2h. Zerker has guaranteed higher damage on a timer (vendo) but with the major downside of no defense. You could argue that on a timed basis, zerker is the superior light tank to savage for damage, but we all know 1 timed ability does not make the class. It is however reason why zerker has/should have less defense than a savage

the thing is not to look at zerker vs savage in the way of balancing things, it's in the way of one realm to the other
you could say other realms are OP because they all have slam for minor disadvantages (lower mainhand skill), but mid has advantages in a group context from other classes - like celerity, disease on a popular class to debuff run speed etc. It's not meant to be viewed solely 1 ability vs 1 ability. It's once you see clear dominance of 1 type of melee vs another melee that changes need to be made, not just "x has this so y should get it too"

Sat 8 Dec 2018 11:48 AM by Druth

360 defence is retarded anyway.

The game should reward positioning, not just detaching brain and /assist /stick style.

Sat 8 Dec 2018 10:08 PM by Niix

Shrug you will never make zerkers relevant without a defense buff or a massive offense nerf to savages making them irrelevant -- have it your way

Sat 8 Dec 2018 10:33 PM by Larko

Agree with Niix. Especially since positional left axe chain has a bleed style that you can rarely use. Also Foadon, savage always does higher damage than zerk and sometimes a savage will even outdamage a zerk during zerk mode. Do some testing on the numbers and it's not even close...especially if you only use doublefrost or conquer/sledgehammer which is the reality of a zerk majority of the time in a group vs group situation.

Sun 9 Dec 2018 1:47 AM by yaru

has anyone actually run a dps-test for a reasonable amount of time to compare the two? im kinda curious. i mean in the end it wouldnt really matter i guess, since effective dps/dmg in a fight depends on way too many factors.. what target are u hitting, from what angle at most times (what GR styles are used mainly), is it being guarded or not and whatnot. but i also agree with the statement that zerkers will need something to atleast be able to challenge svges for the slot of a melee dps in a grp. atm its not even close i feel. seems like zerks superior defense pen/maybe higher dps during vendo mode, doesnt make up for the huge lack of defense in comparison to a svg. increasing zerk dmg by a bit and maybe giving them the sidestun they got at a later patch might do the trick.

Sun 9 Dec 2018 8:25 AM by Isavyr

yaru wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Dec 2018 1:47 AM
has anyone actually run a dps-test for a reasonable amount of time to compare the two? im kinda curious.

I tested it in the past. Savage with self-haste did around 150% the zerker's damage with anytime and positionals. Zerker in vendo mode should be able to compete on DPS, though the defense difference, at that point. will be huge--zerker very vulnerable, and savage one of most resilient in game.. I'll run another test tomorrow to see how it compares.

Sun 9 Dec 2018 2:52 PM by yaru

interesting @isavyr and that sounds rough - for the zerker only to be able to compete dps wise with vendomode up, when at the same time having pretty much no defense at all with, as u said, svges having most likely the best (shieldless) defense against melee (even 360°

in the game.
i was about to try and make an argument for (as i suggested before) increasing zerker dmg by something atleast, by also comparing them to the light-tanks of the other realms, which do have significantly more utility/defense when specced 42 shield. which doesnt really make alot of sense to me now, since zerkers' slight dmg advantage should come from the fact that LA hits/or atleast swings with MH at all times, so potentially extra OH dmg on a hit, where dw/cd OH wouldnt even swing at all. will most likely be a small amount, but still. add to that the very offensive/aggressive class specific ability, vendo mode, which adds a serious amount of dmg/dps for its uptime. and last, but maybe even worth mentioning at the start rather - the availability of celerity (mostly 31% id think) which means a raw dmg/dps increase for all the mid melee, aside from the svg - since it has access to its own anyway.
[also zerks should, due to their high LA-/weapon-spec naturally always do a lil more dmg than mercs/bms id think, given they would use the same growth-rate styles on average, +being able to roll a troll for mighty 100str

]
and that brings me back to the zerk/svg comparison. when running a dps test it also completely leaves out a potential celerity buff infight for the zerk when trying to dps, i guess?
which is pretty huge imo and makes a test like that almost meaningless, but maybe im wrong.

Sun 9 Dec 2018 3:33 PM by Dimir

Unless it's different here Zerkers should also halve block chance where Savages do not.

Sun 9 Dec 2018 4:09 PM by yaru

they (zerks) 3/4 block chance here. custom change that was made to bring light tanks in line with other melees i think.

Sun 9 Dec 2018 5:54 PM by Exploder

You'd need to compare berserker damage to mercenaries and blademaster's. Don't just compare it to savage's.

Sun 9 Dec 2018 9:34 PM by Larko

Currently we're comparing to savage to figure out why anyone would play berserker over savage.

Sun 9 Dec 2018 10:25 PM by Isavyr

Exploder wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Dec 2018 5:54 PM
You'd need to compare berserker damage to mercenaries and blademaster's. Don't just compare it to savage's.

You're welcome to run that test. It isn't relevant to a savage vs zerker comparison.

For comparison between these two, I used same speed weapons, so no dual-wield haste effect is present. I assume both classes get dual wield haste, so it would affect them roughly the same. In addition, I did a simple +10 str,+10 dex, +10 qui across all characters
Furthermore, all characters are using the beta buffs , which benefits the zerkers with 11% haste)--this doesn't stack with Savage.

50Axe/50LA Valkyn Zerker, 3.4 spd wpns, 2.09 sec attack spd
Even though hammer is more common, I wanted weapons of roughly the same speed, which meant I had to use two axes.
(Anytime, doublefrost): 80.1 DPS
(Back, Snowsquall): 85.8 DPS

50Axe/50LA Troll Zerker, 3.4 spd wpns, 2.31 sec attack spd
(Anytime, doublefrost): 78.9 DPS
(Back, Snowsquall): 84.7 DPS

44HtH, 49 Savagery Valkyn Savage, 4.0 hth wpns, 1.74 sec attack spd (with self-haste)
(Anytime, Wild Call): 105.9 DPS
(Side, Kelgor's Fist): 120.7

44HtH, 49 Savagery Troll Savage, 4.0 hth wpns, 1.84 sec attack spd (with self-haste)
(Anytime, Wild Call): 104.2 DPS
(Side, Kelgor's Fist): 114.8

Conclusion: Savage does roughly 140-160% of Zerker's damage with self-haste. Since zerker can (iirc) get 100% crits during vendo form, the damage is probably comparable then, though this comes with huge defense disparities between the two.
The base damage (from previous tests) showed savage base damage to be lower. Since Savages can easily achieve 1.5 second attacks (cap), the zerker has more room to increase their damage before they reach speed cap. Should the zerkers reach speed cap with slow mainhand, using celerity and dual-wield haste effect, they probably would have similar damage to the savage (just my guess) and possibly surpass it with vendo form. However, with Savage's high slam avoidance (360 degree evade, with high evade probability), and side-stuns (4s, 9s second style), they more reliably bring this high DPS (slam avoidance means more seconds to DPS, and also freedom to move).

Disclaimers: This was two minutes of styled attacks--which means there is some level of error. You're welcome to run 1 million rounds if you want 99.9% certainty. I'm OK with 95%.

edit: noticed illogical valkyn zerker attack speed. repeated test 2x more to confirm it was wrong. change is overwritten above.

Sun 9 Dec 2018 10:49 PM by Dimir

If you are doing styled attacks, I think you need to test with the haste effect LA gets (savages do not) because the haste effect doesn't decrease the style damage but lets you attack more often. So that would be the slowest offhand you can find and the fastest offhand. If you're comparing for the sake of 8v8 you should also give the zerker at least blue healer haste (or just whatever charge item is easily accessible) because those are what zerkers will have and they don't stack with the savage self-haste. If your slow main hand + fast offhand + haste is hitting the speed cap then increase the offhand weapon's speed a little. Assume that if you had regular access to celerity maybe you would increase the offhand a little more.

Edit: I'm not on any side here, but I think if you want a better argument you need to make your tests a little better.

Sun 9 Dec 2018 11:04 PM by Exploder

How is it not relevant? You first need to figure out where a berserker's damage stands among the other light tanks. From there, you can easily deduce if berserker damage is actually the problem or if savage's are just doing too much. Not every course of action needs to be "let's bring this class up to this other class' level."

I'm not going to do the testing because I'm not the one advocating for berserker's to be buffed. I'm telling you if you want to make a case for them to be buffed, you need to actually do more research.

Sun 9 Dec 2018 11:08 PM by Isavyr

Exploder wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Dec 2018 11:04 PM
I'm not going to do the testing because I'm not the one advocating for berserker's to be buffed. I'm telling you if you want to make a case for them to be buffed, you need to actually do more research.

1) I'm not trying to convince anyone, just put the facts on the table. Take it or leave it. I already know where the light-tanks fall relative to one another and it isn't something I'm concerned with.
2) I'm not convinced zerkers need a buff and that's not a point I was making.
3) Even overpowered or badly-designed classes are part of classic and playing with this "balance" is precarious. Sometimes its best to leave it alone, even if it's poorly made. (See bonedancer, which I think is a straight-up stupid design).

Dimir wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Dec 2018 10:49 PM
If you are doing styled attacks, I think you need to test with the haste effect LA gets (savages do not)...

If you're right, it's definitely worth further testing simply for the sake of realistic numbers. However, we're limited with beta weapons.

edit: I did more testing, and it appears that it's true that fast OH doesn't help increase MH swing speed for savage.

Valkyn Berserker
Anytime: 80 -> 90 DPS
Side-style: 86 -> 96 DPS
Some 12% damage increase from before with 4.1/2.9 spd weapons.

Comparatively, the savage only deals 1.22x as much anytime and 1.25x as much positional style.

With 4.2 mh, 2.4 oh, I estimate about 16% damage from dual wield haste effect. This would put the savage at "only" 120% DPS of the zerker instead of 150%.

Mon 10 Dec 2018 3:03 AM by Exploder

120% of Berserker's damage when they have self haste/dps buff up?

Mon 10 Dec 2018 5:59 AM by Isavyr

Exploder wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Dec 2018 3:03 AM
120% of Berserker's damage when they have self haste/dps buff up?

Yes.

Mon 10 Dec 2018 7:24 AM by Koljar

Trolls have 195 str+dex vs. the valkyns 180 - how exactly does a valkyn reach a higher dps than a troll? Shouldn't both be at the speed cap thanks to the haste?

Also: Savage and berserk are two totally different interpretations of dealing melee dmg. Just deal with the fact that one outdamages the other. You totally forgot that you have to actually LAND your hits which is something the berserk excells at (vs. the savage) due to defense penetration (dual wield), higher weapon skill (way more str thatn a savage can have (str+dex)/2; also different tables iirc), etc.

Pure dps vs something that neigher fights back nor has defensive abilites is just nonsense.

Mon 10 Dec 2018 11:41 AM by Enrighteous

Savages have stoicism? That would be the first thing I would get rid off of them to make Berserkers a more favorable option. It wouldn't disrupt the feel for the class or make Berserkers over the top either. I don't think anyone is saying Berserkers are weak at the moment, they are just saying Savages are too good. Better off toning them down vs buffing other classes.

Mon 10 Dec 2018 12:06 PM by Kampfar

Just add charge for bers/merc/bm and u will see (almost) no more savages.
Btw i dont get why its not ingame. Moc is there also. Maybe get rid of uber Moc too for fairness

Mon 10 Dec 2018 3:46 PM by Isavyr

Koljar wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Dec 2018 7:24 AM
Trolls have 195 str+dex vs. the valkyns 180 - how exactly does a valkyn reach a higher dps than a troll? Shouldn't both be at the speed cap thanks to the haste?

Also: Savage and berserk are two totally different interpretations of dealing melee dmg. Just deal with the fact that one outdamages the other. You totally forgot that you have to actually LAND your hits which is something the berserk excells at (vs. the savage) due to defense penetration (dual wield), higher weapon skill (way more str thatn a savage can have (str+dex)/2; also different tables iirc), etc.

Pure dps vs something that neigher fights back nor has defensive abilites is just nonsense.

I'm glad you asked; there's a community misconception about strength's effectiveness. It isn't actually that large a factor on damage. Same goes for dexterity. Quickness is about 3x as effective in increasing damage--until 250 quickness. Here's good news for the troll-lovers: with both races receiving shaman's dex/qui buffs, the valkyn will reach the 250 quickness soft-cap/cap earlier than the troll, resulting in lost DPS value. However, the Valkyn will perform about the same, perhaps even more DPS, until that point.

In regards to your other point, I already addressed it in earlier comment:

Isavyr wrote: However, with Savage's high slam avoidance (360 degree evade, with high evade probability), and side-stuns (4s, 9s second style), they more reliably bring this high DPS (slam avoidance means more seconds to DPS, and also freedom to move).

The Savage will greatly out-DPS live targets, both due to their raw DPS, but also because they are at least 3x more likely to evade enemy group's peeling efforts, allowing it to effectively DPS when tanks are trying to peel. If your Savages go for tanks first, you have bigger issues than the discrepancy in damage--though for what it's worth, their 2nd style 9s stun isn't that difficult to get off against light tanks facing another target. Defense penetration should be the Savage's greatest downside but it's unknown to me where it stands, currently, and it's only large issue against shield tanks.

Tue 11 Dec 2018 12:08 AM by Exploder

Yeah, I honestly don't think there's anything to gather from these results. It's a start, but there would have to be more testing -- berserker with celerity vs savage for example (maybe a job for the OP since he wants a buff..?). Savage is sacrificing health for an edge over other melee's. It shouldn't come as a surprise that it out damages a berserker when it has both dps and haste up.

Kampfar wrote: Just add charge for bers/merc/bm and u will see (almost) no more savages.
Btw i dont get why its not ingame. Moc is there also. Maybe get rid of uber Moc too for fairness

Charge isn't in the game because it is incredibly overpowered.

Tue 11 Dec 2018 12:52 AM by Isavyr

Exploder wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Dec 2018 12:08 AM
Yeah, I honestly don't think there's anything to gather from these results. It's a start, but there would have to be more testing -- berserker with celerity vs savage for example (maybe a job for the OP since he wants a buff..?). Savage is sacrificing health for an edge over other melee's. It shouldn't come as a surprise that it out damages a berserker when it has both dps and haste up.

Yes/no. Data are just numbers; numbers based on conditions. If you think different conditions need to exist to make a comparison, so be it. I don't think it's that simple. How can you determine what conditions are required to balance a class overall against all conditions? Is it correct to balance a class around a mostly 8-man difficult-to-cast ability? I think probably not. If so, zerker is offensively stronger in 8-man when difficult-to-cast celerity is cast, but only at that moment, otherwise weaker, and always weaker defensively.

This is the problem--zerker appears weaker in comparison to the Savage, but the zerker is defensible where its at. The savage, on the other hand, is a mix-up of class design, getting the best melee defense and best melee offense in the game, yet missing the defense penetration (minor in my opinion) and prevent flight (OF PF is pretty big-deal imo) that is typical of a light-tank. I'm convinced Mythic just wanted to put out sh(& classes to sell SI and didn't care about breaking previously existing archetype philosophies. In my opinion, it either needs to be a light-tank as Mythic claimed, with prevent flight, and no excessive defense, or not a light-tank, with no stoicism but its current wonderful mix of abilities.

The way Savage sits now, it's in this weird place where it outperforms berserker most the time, in most the areas.

Thu 13 Dec 2018 7:48 AM by Koljar

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Dec 2018 3:46 PM
I'm glad you asked; there's a community misconception about strength's effectiveness. It isn't actually that large a factor on damage. Same goes for dexterity. Quickness is about 3x as effective in increasing damage--until 250 quickness. Here's good news for the troll-lovers: with both races receiving shaman's dex/qui buffs, the valkyn will reach the 250 quickness soft-cap/cap earlier than the troll, resulting in lost DPS value. However, the Valkyn will perform about the same, perhaps even more DPS, until that point.

What about strength's effect on actuately hitting stuff (I'm talking about weaponskill)? Hitting faster might help you in attacking more often but how big is the effect of covering a miss vs. actuately hitting stuff because you have a higher weapon skill?

That would be really interesting. Accepting more misses (due to a lower WS) but attacking more often as opposed to scoring hits more reliably but less often...

Fri 14 Dec 2018 9:30 PM by Larko

@developers @uthred Do you mind responding to this post please? There seems to be a lot of community interest where an informed response would be helpful.

Sat 22 Dec 2018 7:52 PM by phixion

I didn't think stat "caps" existed here? I thought it was more the better... Or am I wrong?