32% less damage in melee - Phoenix Freeshard

I am hearing different things over the last 24 hours. First, it was that base damage (pre-style) was going to get nerfed to bring it in line with "live" damage as of 2012. Okay, that's a really bad place to start, but I'm not going to get into the reasons why. When I logged on to test tonight, I see a 32% reduction in base melee damage. That's massive. Then I am told it is because the dummies got their AF boosted. I see on patch notes that mobs had their AF boosted, but last night I heard melee was getting nerfed from the Developers. I am not hearing consistent answers from the Phoenix team.

In order to be able to do actual testing AS A BETA TESTER we need to have a consistent baseline from which to test. If there was a melee "adjustment" (aka nerf) then we need to have the exact same type of mob (dummy) to test on prior to the "adjustment". Without that you just get bad data. An AF adjustment + a melee "adjustment" within less than 24 hours = a shifty adjustment that players can't trust and beta testers can't trust.

These screenshots are literally separated by 23 hours. I would like to get a consistent answer as to what is going on here. Base damage is a 32% difference. Stats are:
Ranger with 50 Blades aug str6 total strength 310, qui 198, 17% haste in both tests.

Wed 5 Dec 2018 10:08 AM by

gruenesschaf

Mobs and players had 20 / 50 * level as inherent AF, now they have level as inherent AF. Mobs additionally had their default absorb increased from 19% to 27%, dummies are mobs.

Since we're using the 2012 damage formula melee damage should be in line with what can be seen on pend given the same stats, due to the style changes only base damage can be easily tested though. Early on in beta / alpha base damage mostly matched pend via some adjustments and later due to bug fixes in the implementation it diverged again, at some point the inherent AF that's now 50 for level 50 players was 40 for example.

Yesterday some tests were made with bm 1h, hero 2h and ranger 1h against druid and enchanter, after removing the previous damage reduction and setting the inherent AF to level the base damage matched live within +-2 min damage and max damage for all 6 cases, same for cap damage (which required no changes), both could be explained by a combination of rounding errors and/or deteriorating weapon/armor condition.
The formula by now has been implemented in such a way that it can be tested in isolation by just providing the data, the minimum damage (variance = 0) and maximum damage (variance = 49) were compared against the highest and lowest actually seen hits.

Wed 5 Dec 2018 11:44 AM by Shamus777

So my Hero isn't going to hit like a wet noodle? 😉

Wed 5 Dec 2018 3:45 PM by Sepplord

So, and please correct me if I am wrong, not much changed regarding damage in RvR situations, but mobs (and therefor dummies) now take less damage than before...

If so, was Mob HP adjusted or XP required/droprates changed to account for slower killing times?

Wed 5 Dec 2018 4:29 PM by crystal

players had 20 / 50 * level as inherent AF, now they have level as inherent AF - this equates to a 20%+ nerf to melee dmg in rvr

Wed 5 Dec 2018 4:31 PM by kedelin

Me and my friend tested melee dmg from a inf on his pally from before to after and what we found is pa average went from 276 to 247... that is not 32 percent... it was just a minor adjustment on the PvP side of things...

Wed 5 Dec 2018 5:24 PM by

gruenesschaf

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 3:45 PM
If so, was Mob HP adjusted or XP required/droprates changed to account for slower killing times?

This was actually the main reason for the change, we watched an infiltrator level solo by killing about 1 yellow mob every minute, I think he was called relvinian, and we considered that to be too fast a leveling pace, we want you as a solo infiltrator player to have a good experience and that means giving you enought time to read a couple books while leveling.

Wed 5 Dec 2018 5:49 PM by Sepplord

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 5:24 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 3:45 PM
If so, was Mob HP adjusted or XP required/droprates changed to account for slower killing times?

This was actually the main reason for the change, we watched an infiltrator level solo by killing about 1 yellow mob every minute, I think he was called relvinian, and we considered that to be too fast a leveling pace, we want you as a solo infiltrator player to have a good experience and that means giving you enought time to read a couple books while leveling.

my sarcasm detector is going off pretty heavily, and I hope noones gets a stroke reading that and taking it as real

could you please clarify the main question though:

was there a change to dmg in RvR situations or not?

thank you

Wed 5 Dec 2018 5:55 PM by

Uthred

Schaf already explained it some posts above. This was changed with the latest patch.

"- melee damage reduction to match tests on pendragon via increase of inherent af and npc absorb"

The damage wasnt reduced but the AF increased as it was wrong calculated before. Look at Schafs post, he pretty well explained it.

Wed 5 Dec 2018 6:01 PM by Sepplord

as I have no idea how the damage here on phoenix compared to current live or pendragon dmg it wasn't as clear to me as to maybe someone else.

I take from the whole of comments now that dmg is now lower than it was before here on phoenix

Wed 5 Dec 2018 7:02 PM by

Uthred

Bm vs Pala (before the patch)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/378299464609431552/519606388159414275/unknown.png

Bm vs Pala (after the patch)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/378299464609431552/519612271656173569/unknown.png

Wed 5 Dec 2018 9:55 PM by Kampfar

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 5:24 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 3:45 PM
If so, was Mob HP adjusted or XP required/droprates changed to account for slower killing times?

This was actually the main reason for the change, we watched an infiltrator level solo by killing about 1 yellow mob every minute, I think he was called relvinian, and we considered that to be too fast a leveling pace, we want you as a solo infiltrator player to have a good experience and that means giving you enought time to read a couple books while leveling.

Made my day

Wed 5 Dec 2018 11:57 PM by Sepplord

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 7:02 PM
Bm vs Pala (before the patch)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/378299464609431552/519606388159414275/unknown.png

Bm vs Pala (after the patch)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/378299464609431552/519612271656173569/unknown.png

thanks for being transparent and responsive despite me sometimes getting annoying.
So against a high armor class melee dmg was reduced by about 18%.

With all due respect, and I am serious when I say that I for sure have a MUCH smaller grasp of DAoC and the underlying mechanics, so please take my worried inquiries with a grain of salt: To me it sounded a bit frightening that this late in the Beta-test, such a huge change to a whole damage type seems to be necessary. Especially after PD was nerfed because it made casters too tanky (at least that's how I understood it). Sadly I cannot log into the game until the weekend to check patch notes and other changes that might have came along.

Also an additional sorry to gruenesschaf if my question about Mob-HP adjustments annoyed you. I am just armchair discussing things while eagerly awaiting launch with only some forum-posts to go off while you guys have databases full of informations. I really am not asking these questions because I think I know better or because I believe you are doing it wrong. It's just because I am curious and want to kill some time with stuff about DAoC

Thu 6 Dec 2018 12:55 AM by

gruenesschaf

The change could have been made a month ago already if someone had logged in to pend and tested it instead of just repeatedly saying melee damage is too high.

It's just something that takes up time but is not exactly rocket science to make a char and hit unstyled on a target first when unbuffed then when buffed and then making another char that's supposed to be on a different damage table and repeating it and repeating it again against another armor class and in all cases recording the relevant stats (weapon dps, rr5, weapon speed, str, dex, spec, toa bonuses, relic bonuses, resist, in case of some secondary source separated in primary, secondary, racial) as well as the min and max damage seen. Preferably with a video or full screenshots + chat log.

Thu 6 Dec 2018 9:57 AM by Shamus777

Call me a dingbat but does this mean armor and % actually going to matter now?

Thu 6 Dec 2018 9:59 AM by

gruenesschaf

Shamus777 wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Dec 2018 9:57 AM
Call me a dingbat but does this mean armor and % actually going to matter now?

wat?

Thu 6 Dec 2018 10:01 AM by Shamus777

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Dec 2018 9:59 AM
Shamus777 wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Dec 2018 9:57 AM
Call me a dingbat but does this mean armor and % actually going to matter now?

wat?

Sorry. Good morning I haven't had my coffee yet... Does this mean like plate/chain/scale is going to be stronger now? I need lamens terms. I'm not the smartest man but I know what love is... (Forrest Gump impression)

Thu 6 Dec 2018 10:05 AM by Kaziera

See if you would write down a instruction how to perform such tests, ppl would be able to.

I e.g. never logged into pendragon and have no idea about the underlying formulas, so i bet i would miss some values.

It helps to prepare basic forms for that, like:

We need more dmg tests, log into pendragon, do at least xxx swings on a duel and note the folowing values.

Thu 6 Dec 2018 2:16 PM by Sepplord

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Dec 2018 12:55 AM
The change could have been made a month ago already if someone had logged in to pend and tested it instead of just repeatedly saying melee damage is too high.

It's just something that takes up time but is not exactly rocket science to make a char and hit unstyled on a target first when unbuffed then when buffed and then making another char that's supposed to be on a different damage table and repeating it and repeating it again against another armor class and in all cases recording the relevant stats (weapon dps, rr5, weapon speed, str, dex, spec, toa bonuses, relic bonuses, resist, in case of some secondary source separated in primary, secondary, racial) as well as the min and max damage seen. Preferably with a video or full screenshots + chat log.

Again, I am sorry that you seem to took my comment as accusation...my intention merely was to look forward and think about what is needed now. Not look back and point at who's fault it is. I don't know how to stress this any better.

If you need more testers, just tell me what exactly you need and I can put in a few hours testing and recording on Pendragon next week when I am back at home again. I lack the knowledge to find out myself what parts seem off or need testing.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 3:45 PM by Centenario

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 10:08 AM
Mobs and players had 20 / 50 * level as inherent AF, now they have level as inherent AF. Mobs additionally had their default absorb increased from 19% to 27%, dummies are mobs.

Is this still true now?

I also made a bug report about AF, see link:
https://tracker.playphoenix.online/issues/bfb5f8b2-0f37-47a2-bdad-e38a0ff638e4