4.2 Offhand Weapon for Alb and Hib?

A 4.2 Weapon offhand weapon exists for Mid (dropped weapon that is an Axe) but there is no equivalent counterpart in Alb/Hib.

Do the Developers here on Phoenix plan on implementing an equivalent on Alb/Hib for the sake of balance?

Sun 25 Nov 2018 10:37 PM by keen

On Hib and Alb that weapon does not make any sense, be happy that you can not gimp yourself by game design too much.

Mon 26 Nov 2018 12:52 AM by Cadebrennus

keen wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Nov 2018 10:37 PM
On Hib and Alb that weapon does not make any sense, be happy that you can not gimp yourself by game design too much.

If you think a 4.2 offhand weapon is gimp then you do not know Dual Wielding mechanics as well as you think you do

Mon 26 Nov 2018 2:31 AM by keen

I'm aware of it.

Mon 26 Nov 2018 3:26 PM by Thinal

It is my understanding that Midgard does not get the dual wielding bonus haste, because its mainhand and offhand weapon speeds are always averaged, while Alb and Hib will always use mainhand weapon for attack speed with a styled hit. Therefore, a 4.2 offhand would be substantially more impactful in Alb or Hib than in Mid. It would not be "equivalent" -- it would be a flat-out gift to those realms.

Mon 26 Nov 2018 9:32 PM by

gruenesschaf

The always averaging is the "bonus haste", aka haste effect. It works exactly the same for cd/dw/la but for la it always happens.

With a slower offhand you'd do the same base damage dps wise but since the haste effect doesn't affect style damage you're doing less total dps, with a faster offhand you'd still do the same base damage dps wise but now increase your total dps as the swing speed that's used for style calc is higher than your actual delay between swings.

Mon 26 Nov 2018 9:53 PM by Dragonn

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 9:32 PM
The always averaging is the "bonus haste", aka haste effect. It works exactly the same for cd/dw/la but for la it always happens.

With a slower offhand you'd do the same base damage dps wise but since the haste effect doesn't affect style damage you're doing less total dps, with a faster offhand you'd still do the same base damage dps wise but now increase your total dps as the swing speed that's used for style calc is higher than your actual delay between swings.

On dual wield if u hit with a slower off hand it does more dmg then a faster offhand

Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:14 PM by

gruenesschaf

Per hit yes but not dps wise

Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:35 PM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:14 PM
Per hit yes but not dps wise

So will there be a 4.2 speed option for offhand weapons in Alb and Hib?

Tue 27 Nov 2018 1:45 PM by Dragonn

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:14 PM
Per hit yes but not dps wise

Can you explaine me why pls?

Tue 27 Nov 2018 4:36 PM by

Uthred

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:35 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:14 PM
Per hit yes but not dps wise

So will there be a 4.2 speed option for offhand weapons in Alb and Hib?

Nothing planned so far.

Tue 27 Nov 2018 6:23 PM by Cadebrennus

Uthred wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 4:36 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:35 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:14 PM
Per hit yes but not dps wise

So will there be a 4.2 speed option for offhand weapons in Alb and Hib?

Nothing planned so far.

On live they eventually put 4.1 speed weapons on Alb and Hib for the sake of parity. I don't remember which patches though.

Tue 27 Nov 2018 6:29 PM by Thinal

Dragonn wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 1:45 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:14 PM
Per hit yes but not dps wise
Can you explaine me why pls?

Please don't assume that programmers can actually change reality, because his conclusion does not derive from his presentation. No matter what dynamics were originally there or custom adjusted for this server, always-averages LA and always-mainhand CD/DW (styled) rates of fire will result in vastly different dynamics, and cannot be "exactly the same." They will average to be exactly the same for unstyled damage, but that's not a scenario of concern in RvR.

Tue 27 Nov 2018 6:36 PM by Cadebrennus

Thinal wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 6:29 PM
Dragonn wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 1:45 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:14 PM
Per hit yes but not dps wise
Can you explaine me why pls?

Please don't assume that programmers can actually change reality, because his conclusion does not derive from his presentation. No matter what dynamics were originally there or custom adjusted for this server, always-averages LA and always-mainhand CD/DW (styled) rates of fire will result in vastly different dynamics, and cannot be "exactly the same." They will average to be exactly the same for unstyled damage, but that's not a scenario of concern in RvR.

Melee characters are OOE far more often than I expected on this server. Just read the threads about it.

Wed 28 Nov 2018 1:36 AM by

gruenesschaf

The haste effect for dw/cd/la is exactly the same, the averaging of weapon speed happens on swings where both weapons swing. In case of LA it happens on every swing, for cd / dw it's not on every swing but when it happens it has precisely the same effect: averaging the swing speed.

If you have a 2.0 mainhand and 4.0 offhand and hit as dw/cd with 100% damage for either hand, unstyled your single hits have a 50% chance to be either mh or offhand. Let's also assume you hit for 100 damage per second delay. Let's assume these are the swings that happen and lets just ignore all quickness / haste anything else all that doesn't matter but simplifies it
mh, mh + oh, oh, mh + oh
That means you hit for 200, 200 + 400, 400, 200 + 400, that's a total of 1800 damage and have delays of 2, 3, 4, 3 seconds, that's a total delay of 12 seconds. You are doing 150 dps.
If you swap the speeds, 4.0 mh and 2.0 offhand, you're looking at
400, 400 + 200, 200, 400 + 200, that's a total of 1800 damage and have a delay of 4, 3, 2, 3 seconds, that's a total delay of 12 seconds. You are doing 150 dps.

Let's try styles now, styles are a static bonus given the same condition (damage modifier) that's multiplied with your modified swing speed, however haste effect does not count towards the modified swing speed for styles whereas haste / celerity / quickness does. For dw/cd a styled swing is always done with the mainhand, that means you only have either mh only hits or mh + oh but never oh only.
Let's assume the style bonus is 50 per second.
mh, mh + oh, mh, mh + oh
2.0 MH, 4.0 OH: That means you hit for 300, 300 + 400, 300, 300 + 400, that's a total of 2000 damage and you have a delay of 2, 3, 2, 3 seconds that's a total of 10 seconds. You are doing 200 dps.
4.0MH, 2.0 OH: That means you hit for 600, 600 + 200, 600, 600 + 200, that's a total of 2800 damage and you have a delay of 4, 3, 4, 3 seconds that's a total of 14 seconds. You are doing 200 dps.

If you are using styles that give you less bonus a faster mainhand would mean more dps when using stlyes and if you have a style giving more bonus having a slower mainhand increases your dps. Then you can also go ahead and throw in more complex stuff, for example the miss rate which will be higher for your offhand if you're using styles with to hit bonus, that would benefit the slow mh case more.

Wed 28 Nov 2018 3:15 PM by Thinal

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 1:36 AM
The haste effect for dw/cd/la is exactly the same, the averaging of weapon speed happens on swings where both weapons swing. In case of LA it happens on every swing, for cd / dw it's not on every swing but when it happens it has precisely the same effect: averaging the swing speed.

If you are asserting that styled swings will average with offhand for speed for CD/DW when the offhand also hits, then that implies three things:
1. This is not how DAoC traditionally works, and is therefore either wrong or a custom change,
2. This does not match reported testing on these forums, so is either incorrect or silently changed after those tests were done, and
3. STILL would not be "exactly the same."

The reason for #3 is that the mainhand ALWAYS swings on a styled hit. If you've changed the speed to average when the offhand swings as well, then there are two conditions: swing at MH, swing at (MH+OH)/2. There is, importantly, still no condition for a styled swing where the speed is swing at OH only.

[MH + (MH+OH)/2 + OH] / 3 = LA's always (MH+OH)/2, but
[MH + (MH+OH)/2] / 2 <> LA unless MH==OH.

Therefore, the effect of the offhand to total styled DPS will always be different for LA than for CD/DW, even if you've made the implied custom changes in your post.

If you've made no such changes and original dynamics are in effect, then styled LA will always average (MH+OH)/2, and styled CD/DW will always swing at MH speed, where the OH will always hit as if it had swung at its own speed. So a heavier offhand than mainhand will cause the offhand to swing faster than it should. As the offhand hit is always unstyled, then there is no reduction of the styled portion due to being swung faster. THIS is the CD/DW "haste effect."

If you have made any custom changes to this arrangement, then I would appreciate details of those changes.

Wed 28 Nov 2018 3:44 PM by Dimir

I think what the Dev is saying is:
* That for the sake of the style damage, your MH weapon speed is used (regardless of whether you swing with an offhand weapon).
* But your actual time between your first attack and your next attack will be the average speed if you swung with your offhand (which is most situations is faster).

That sounds like correct DAOC mechanics to me. Maybe I'm missing another argument.

Wed 28 Nov 2018 3:50 PM by

gruenesschaf

Thinal wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 3:15 PM
If you've made no such changes and original dynamics are in effect, then styled LA will always average (MH+OH)/2, and styled CD/DW will always swing at MH speed, where the OH will always hit as if it had swung at its own speed. So a heavier offhand than mainhand will cause the offhand to swing faster than it should. As the offhand hit is always unstyled, then there is no reduction of the styled portion due to being swung faster. THIS is the CD/DW "haste effect."

That is simply incorrect or at least not complete. When styling with a faster offhand than mainhand you will swing faster than mh speed but if you use a slower offhand speed you will swing slower than mainhand speed (for swings where both weapons take part). Whenever your offhand swings in addition to your mainhand the delay to the next swing is the average of mh and oh. However, this averaging happens after the swing speed for the style damage was calculated -> the haste effect does not reduce / increase the style bonus.

Wed 28 Nov 2018 4:12 PM by

gruenesschaf

And ofc. your offhand will always hit as if it swings at its own speed as the modified speed does not affect base / unstyled damage, if that weren't the case haste / celerity / qui would be quite pointless.

Wed 28 Nov 2018 6:32 PM by Thinal

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 3:50 PM
Thinal wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 3:15 PM
If you've made no such changes and original dynamics are in effect, then styled LA will always average (MH+OH)/2, and styled CD/DW will always swing at MH speed, where the OH will always hit as if it had swung at its own speed. So a heavier offhand than mainhand will cause the offhand to swing faster than it should. As the offhand hit is always unstyled, then there is no reduction of the styled portion due to being swung faster. THIS is the CD/DW "haste effect."

That is simply incorrect or at least not complete. When styling with a faster offhand than mainhand you will swing faster than mh speed but if you use a slower offhand speed you will swing slower than mainhand speed (for swings where both weapons take part). Whenever your offhand swings in addition to your mainhand the delay to the next swing is the average of mh and oh. However, this averaging happens after the swing speed for the style damage was calculated -> the haste effect does not reduce / increase the style bonus.

The portion you quoted states that I was describing original DAoC dynamics, long confirmed, including at one time on this server: styled hits for CD/DW use the mainhand speed only. If you've changed that for Phoenix (after the testing that was reported on these boards) so that swings that both hit take on the average speed, then it might not pertain here, but it's not an incorrect statement.

With the dynamics you describe, then it is still best for CD/DW to have an offhand with speed slower than MH. With a faster OH, every styled double-hit is faster than a styled MH-only hit, and therefore will have a drag down on the styled portion of the DPS, while the unstyled base remains the same. A slower offhand will result in styled double-hits being slower than single hits, and the style portion pulled upward. The case for styled OH-only never exists, and therefore never results in the opposite, balancing dynamic.

For MH slower than OH, DW/CD will always average fewer styled hits over time, and OH slower than MH, DW/CD will always average more styled hits over time than LA with exactly the same weapon speeds, quickness, haste, and celerity effects. The distance between them shrinks as DW/CD skill rises and gets more double hits.

If you are intent on forcing them to match, you'd need to have DW/CD always do styled swings at the average speed, regardless of which weapons actually swing each round.

Wed 28 Nov 2018 6:58 PM by

gruenesschaf

Yes it's long confirmed but not in the way you're talking about.

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/la_cd_dw_mechanics.html

The next interesting step is that of haste. When styling, the mainhand damage is artificially increased, and one of the wonders of LA/CD/DW haste is that style damage is always based on the mainhand speed, not the average speed. This indicates a potential balance flaw, as the consistency of the mainhand being brought down in speed from LA seems to offer a potential advantage over the inconsistency of such in CD/DW. The following table shows the results of haste on styles, maintaining the same assumptions as above, except the weapons used will be 4.0SPD mainhands with 2.2SPD offhands (3.1SPD hasted), with damage caps of 120 and 66 respectively (again assuming roughly 10DPS):

For the first time in any of our tests, we finally start to see Left Axe outdamage both Celtic Dual and Dual Wield. While CD/DW do more damage from the mainhand on average unhasted, when counting the haste effect, this damage is actually less in the long run the reliable haste on every swing allows a LA user to very slightly boost his DPS over that of a CD/DW user, as long as melee styles are used during this time. Note, of course, that the actual amount this DPS varies will increase when the speed difference between the two weapons is larger, while it will decrease when the speed difference is smaller.

Wed 28 Nov 2018 7:32 PM by

gruenesschaf

To completely clear up any possible confusion and to be as clear as possible about what the haste effect is:

The haste effect means that the average of mh and oh swing speed determine the swing delay. The haste effect only and always comes into effect on swings where both weapons attack.
The swing delay modification caused by the haste effect does not affect style damage.

The haste effect does not mean that you always swing at mh delay and get "free" oh hits at mh delay with the oh delay not mattering at all. That has never been a thing and is most certainly not the haste effect.

Wed 28 Nov 2018 8:27 PM by Kralin

Ok thanks for clarifying. It makes sense to me and hope in testing that the system is working as intended.

Wed 28 Nov 2018 9:10 PM by Cadebrennus

So back to the original question. Are there plans to have 4.2 speed offhand weapons on Alb and Hib or does only Mid get them?

Wed 28 Nov 2018 9:25 PM by Dimir

Uthred wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 4:36 PM
So will there be a 4.2 speed option for offhand weapons in Alb and Hib?

Nothing planned so far.

^^

Wed 28 Nov 2018 9:50 PM by Cadebrennus

Uthred wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 4:36 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:35 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:14 PM
Per hit yes but not dps wise

So will there be a 4.2 speed option for offhand weapons in Alb and Hib?

Nothing planned so far.

So that's a NO to realm balance. Got it.

Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:32 PM by keen

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 9:50 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 4:36 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 10:35 PM
So will there be a 4.2 speed option for offhand weapons in Alb and Hib?

Nothing planned so far.

So that's a NO to realm balance. Got it.

Alb has a 4.4 main hand, what are you talking about?

Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:35 PM by Cadebrennus

keen wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:32 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 9:50 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 4:36 PM
Nothing planned so far.

So that's a NO to realm balance. Got it.
Alb has a 4.4 main hand, what are you talking about?

So does Hib. I'm talking about offhand weapons (see title of thread). What are you talking about?

Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:37 PM by keen

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:35 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:32 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 9:50 PM
So that's a NO to realm balance. Got it.
Alb has a 4.4 main hand, what are you talking about?

So does Hib. I'm talking about offhand weapons (see title of thread). What are you talking about?

Hib does not have a 4.4 main hand, and you talked about realm balance by neglecting the elephant in the room?

Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:44 PM by Dragonn

keen wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:32 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 9:50 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 4:36 PM
Nothing planned so far.

So that's a NO to realm balance. Got it.
Alb has a 4.4 main hand, what are you talking about?

What weapon is 4.4?

Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:46 PM by Cadebrennus

Dragonn wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:44 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:32 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 9:50 PM
So that's a NO to realm balance. Got it.
Alb has a 4.4 main hand, what are you talking about?

What weapon is 4.4?

Druid/Warden weapon

Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:47 PM by Cadebrennus

keen wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:37 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:35 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:32 PM
Alb has a 4.4 main hand, what are you talking about?

So does Hib. I'm talking about offhand weapons (see title of thread). What are you talking about?
Hib does not have a 4.4 main hand, and you talked about realm balance by neglecting the elephant in the room?

Check your facts before you post.

Thu 29 Nov 2018 12:20 AM by keen

Sorry didn't expect you to troll me here. Obviously we are not concerned about druid/warden DMG,but comparing dual wielders here.

Thu 29 Nov 2018 12:50 AM by Cadebrennus

keen wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Nov 2018 12:20 AM
Sorry didn't expect you to troll me here. Obviously we are not concerned about druid/warden DMG,but comparing dual wielders here.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

At this point I think you're just confusing yourself. Dual wielders have no access to a 4.4 speed mainhand. This thread is about 4.2 speed offhands. I suggest you take a long break, take a breath, and re-read the entire thread at a much slower pace.

I do find it amusing when a troll accuses others of trolling.

Thu 29 Nov 2018 9:25 AM by keen

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Nov 2018 12:50 AM
keen wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Nov 2018 12:20 AM
Sorry didn't expect you to troll me here. Obviously we are not concerned about druid/warden DMG,but comparing dual wielders here.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

At this point I think you're just confusing yourself. Dual wielders have no access to a 4.4 speed mainhand. This thread is about 4.2 speed offhands. I suggest you take a long break, take a breath, and re-read the entire thread at a much slower pace.

I do find it amusing when a troll accuses others of trolling.

Quite a bold statement

Since you obviously did not check all weapons available before creating this thread, login check off hand weapons. Maybe you will find a slow one, who knows

Thu 29 Nov 2018 7:04 PM by Cadebrennus

keen wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Nov 2018 9:25 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Nov 2018 12:50 AM
keen wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Nov 2018 12:20 AM
Sorry didn't expect you to troll me here. Obviously we are not concerned about druid/warden DMG,but comparing dual wielders here.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

At this point I think you're just confusing yourself. Dual wielders have no access to a 4.4 speed mainhand. This thread is about 4.2 speed offhands. I suggest you take a long break, take a breath, and re-read the entire thread at a much slower pace.

I do find it amusing when a troll accuses others of trolling.
Quite a bold statement

Since you obviously did not check all weapons available before creating this thread, login check off hand weapons. Maybe you will find a slow one, who knows

I saw that but nothing Slash on Alb or Hib

Wed 5 Dec 2018 2:19 AM by Thinal

Per the testing I've just done...

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 6:58 PM
Yes it's long confirmed but not in the way you're talking about.

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/la_cd_dw_mechanics.html

The next interesting step is that of haste. When styling, the mainhand damage is artificially increased, and one of the wonders of LA/CD/DW haste is that style damage is always based on the mainhand speed, not the average speed.

This is TRUE. LA confirmed to have styled swings at (MH+OH) / 2 speed, speed of offhand has no effect on the unstyled or styled portions of the mainhand damage.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 7:32 PM
The haste effect does not mean that you always swing at mh delay and get "free" oh hits at mh delay with the oh delay not mattering at all. That has never been a thing and is most certainly not the haste effect.

This is FALSE.

Testing environment:
Lurikeen Nightshade, +10 str / +15 dex
i50 potions, dex/qui charge jewelry, 253 quickness (caps at 250 for weapon speed purposes), 11% haste
4.1 speed mainhand, 3.3 speed offhand
If swung at average speed, swing delay is (4.1+3.3)/2 = 3.7, 3.7 *0.60 (quick) * 0.11 (haste) = 1.9758
If swung at mainhand speed, swing delay is 4.1 * 0.60 * 0.11 = 2.1894

That break is important, because /chatlog only measures to the second.
-- At AVERAGE speed, the log delay is ALWAYS <= 2 seconds
-- At MAINHAND speed, the log delay is 3 seconds 18.94% of the time

Using the CD taunt style, the log delay is 3 seconds after a double-swing about 18.94% of the time. That should never happen if it is indeed swinging at average speed.

The mechanics I described earlier in this thread are indeed incorrect, per your first quote, because neither the base damage nor the style bonus of the mainhand for either CD or LA will vary with offhand speed. The haste effect for LA is a fast offhand causing the styled damage mainhand to occur more often. But the haste effect for CD/DW is indeed a heavier offhand swinging at a faster rate, and requires a slower offhand than mainhand.

And to the point of this thread -- a super-slow offhand in Midgard is meh, even detrimental, but a super-slow offhand in Alb / Hib is a gift from the gods. It would not be "balance" to gift these realms with something that powerful.

Wed 5 Dec 2018 2:52 AM by

gruenesschaf

Wed 5 Dec 2018 6:58 AM by Isavyr

Thinal,
If you style 50 times, and divide it by the total log time, you will get a much more accurate swing time. Try two slow weapons, then try slow main-hand with a fast off-hand.

You will easily see that the quick off-hand helps increase the speed of styled main-hand attacks. Furthermore, with a really slow main-hand, you will notice (and can measure) that two swung weapons result in a lower delay than when only one weapon swings.

That being said, I am not able to reproduce the swing time values from Talysyra. I'm noticing across the board that dual wielders, even with low dual-wield specialization, have swing timers that are significantly faster than the 'average swing time'.

Wed 5 Dec 2018 11:09 AM by Ceen

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 6:58 AM
Thinal,
If you style 50 times, and divide it by the total log time, you will get a much more accurate swing time. Try two slow weapons, then try slow main-hand with a fast off-hand.

You will easily see that the quick off-hand helps increase the speed of styled main-hand attacks. Furthermore, with a really slow main-hand, you will notice (and can measure) that two swung weapons result in a lower delay than when only one weapon swings.

That being said, I am not able to reproduce the swing time values from Talysyra. I'm noticing across the board that dual wielders, even with low dual-wield specialization, have swing timers that are significantly faster than the 'average swing time'.

That's great news since Talysyra is so outdated and flawed ^^
There have been way better tests done by others and that lead to the melee formulas from daoc wiki which are used on Phoenix I suppose.