Remove /switch for non-shield classes

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, a search for "/switch" didn't work because the word was too common.

I think /switch is a very nice QOL change for Merc and BMs so they can easily switch to shield and slam, even if it lowers the skill bar a bit, it allows a lot of people that wouldn't dream of manually swapping in and out a shield to do so.

However, I've played an assassin on a freeshard before with /switch (which iirc was NEVER in real DAoC) and it just makes the game stupid. There isn't any reason you don't carry 8+ weapons and switch after each swing to effectively add a poison proc damage to every swing. I think I only carried 6 or 8 at the time and that was only because the potion situation was far more restrictive. In your rules "It is allowed to bind multiple actions to a key" which means I can easily set up my mouse to press a single button to switch both weapons and attack, and I have a lot of buttons to cover each pair of weapons and poison combinations if they purge.

This probably isn't a popular opinion for most assassin characters but I think it will make the game more fun and balanced. This isn't something you want to take a away post-launch because it will be seen as a nerf of real characters and as a unfair benefit for early characters that got to use it for however long by newer players.

Sun 25 Nov 2018 9:06 AM by Sei

You Can Do it without Switch, i remember playing nightshade with inventory open cause of that

Sun 25 Nov 2018 9:12 AM by Enyore

I agree completely.

Sun 25 Nov 2018 11:03 AM by Schamalow

I agree and I prefer if the /switch command would be removed to all.

BM/Merc should be reward to switch and have shield stun.

You forget the class with low 2h weapon speed like Friar. Friar actually can used the /switch to switch the speed of their staff.
Usefull when you have lower staff speed first then:
You can switch for higher when you parry / evade to maximize the next style.
You can switch for higher when the Friar used his own haste buff

But it's unskilled to do it now so I don't like that.

If the people who play really wants to switch weapon, they can learn and master the switch weapon technique without any issues.
The only issues is when you need to switch multiple time like assassin class.
I think all people know but this kind of class isn't a "casual player" class. It is high skill / high reward and the switch give access to all poisons who is a really powerfull tool.

Switch one shield or 2h weapon isn't really hard to be honest and easy to learn.
You can pratice the switch technique before you get the 50 in PvE and perform well in RvR.

Sun 25 Nov 2018 2:07 PM by Dimir

Sei wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Nov 2018 9:06 AM
You Can Do it without Switch, i remember playing nightshade with inventory open cause of that

Yep and I think that's fine because it takes a decent amount of effort at a cost (it's much harder to move around/through your enemy at the same time, and it's much slower. I think /switch just makes it too easy.

Sun 25 Nov 2018 8:18 PM by relvinian

Poison should give an impunity to poison. You should get a message, target has that effect. then when the dot wears off there should be an immunity.

If you can only purge once, why can you poison over and over and over?

Sun 25 Nov 2018 9:48 PM by Foadon

either switch for noone or leave it like it is. personally i'd rather see it go completely (i played SB without switching pre-i50 and i did just fine - after i50 items i manually dragged, so dont call me out as some /switch-ing stealther scum), there is no reason that merc & bm should get it and others don't. They want a slam they can drag after slam and use a non-CD/DW style while they drag it in to not lose as much time. staff here decided so far to allow it, but making it available only to a few is ridiculous

the same goes for binding multiple actions to a key tbh, it all lowers the skill required to best someone and allows for (in my opinion) so many situations where the old system of daoc combat gets abused.

Sun 25 Nov 2018 10:02 PM by Aincrad

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Nov 2018 8:18 PM
Poison should give an impunity to poison. You should get a message, target has that effect. then when the dot wears off there should be an immunity.

If you can only purge once, why can you poison over and over and over?

No other dot in the game works like this. That would not be a good change. You can poison over and over on any other class so it shouldn’t be any different. That’s how dots work.

What should occur is if a higher lvl poison is on the enemy there should be a message saying a stronger affect is currently on the enemy and a weaker poison cannot be put on. And if the same lvl poison is used it should reset the time on the current dot. That is definitely off topic though.

Moving back to topic, I would be okay with removing /switch all together. While it is a cool QoL change I think it’s an unnecessary addition and just makes it too easy for certain classes.

Sun 25 Nov 2018 10:06 PM by Cadebrennus

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Nov 2018 8:18 PM
Poison should give an impunity to poison. You should get a message, target has that effect. then when the dot wears off there should be an immunity.

If you can only purge once, why can you poison over and over and over?

Excellent point. You should bring this up in Suggestions or Ask the Team

Sun 25 Nov 2018 10:20 PM by Dimir

Foadon wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Nov 2018 9:48 PM
either switch for noone or leave it like it is. personally i'd rather see it go completely (i played SB without switching pre-i50 and i did just fine - after i50 items i manually dragged, so dont call me out as some /switch-ing stealther scum), there is no reason that merc & bm should get it and others don't. They want a slam they can drag after slam and use a non-CD/DW style while they drag it in to not lose as much time. staff here decided so far to allow it, but making it available only to a few is ridiculous

the same goes for binding multiple actions to a key tbh, it all lowers the skill required to best someone and allows for (in my opinion) so many situations where the old system of daoc combat gets abused.

I'm fine with it going completely as well, at the time I wrote the post though I figured assassins were the most able to abuse it (and I will probably play one).

Mon 26 Nov 2018 2:04 AM by Sepplord

Foadon wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Nov 2018 9:48 PM
the same goes for binding multiple actions to a key tbh, it all lowers the skill required to best someone and allows for (in my opinion) so many situations where the old system of daoc combat gets abused.

kind off off topic to the /switch discussion, but how are people currently using that to benefit from it the most? (not doubting you, I just can't really grasp how far this can be taken)

Mon 26 Nov 2018 11:38 AM by Foadon

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 2:04 AM
Foadon wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Nov 2018 9:48 PM
the same goes for binding multiple actions to a key tbh, it all lowers the skill required to best someone and allows for (in my opinion) so many situations where the old system of daoc combat gets abused.

kind off off topic to the /switch discussion, but how are people currently using that to benefit from it the most? (not doubting you, I just can't really grasp how far this can be taken)

for the slam classes - they can bind 1 key to do /switch to shield, brutalise (if lvl50)+slam backup to swap and slam in 1 button, you don't wanna know how many times ive been slammed by a merc or bm running with 2weapons after a PA before i can land a CD (and thats with 1.8-1.9s swingspeed)

for all general classes - (i didnt use it but if it stays for release i will, otherwise you're bound to lose fights you would win due to manual errors)
the ability to put up to 4(or more)styles on 1 key, useful for example if you have an anytime chain of 2 or 3 styles, + a reactionary chain of 2, you can bind 1 key to do reaction followup -> reaction -> anytime followup 2/1 -> anytime. The game doesnt let you queue a style that you didnt use the prereq for, so what ends up happening is on a fresh combat, you will do reactionary + anytime backup, on the 2nd swing depending on result of the first it will do reaction followup + anytime OR reactionary + anytime followup. It's complicated to explain but imagine not having to worry about pressing the right button AT ALL during combat and still getting off your best combo's given the results. instead of having 5styles that you have to press if you want to duplicate this manually, its 1

another example they use is positionals. This is important for some classes who rely on positional styles for a stun or a heavy asd. You can bind the positional + an anytime, or 2 positionals and do all your focusing on running through targets or trying to get your position. for example an NS or CD ranger wants to get a side style for the stun. They can bind side + backstyle and just run through targets and with the right coordination of turning after running through, theyll get a sidestyle off
Again, doing this manually is MUCH harder if not impossible against another player who is also moving, but i've had it happen to me, even with perfect movement on my part

for magic users for example healers, ive read alot of people do "double abilities" on the same key based on target, for example mez & demez, disease & cure disease, debuff vs heal etc. That allows them to reduce their muscle memory to half based on what they target

what it all boils down to is it lets you reduce the number of active buttons you have to push to attain perfect playing. for melee'ers, it can go from 10buttons to 3, for some classes it can go from 20+ to 10 maybe. It's no longer about skill and muscle memory but playing with the help of a computer basically

Mon 26 Nov 2018 6:49 PM by Cadebrennus

Foadon wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 11:38 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 2:04 AM
Foadon wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Nov 2018 9:48 PM
the same goes for binding multiple actions to a key tbh, it all lowers the skill required to best someone and allows for (in my opinion) so many situations where the old system of daoc combat gets abused.

kind off off topic to the /switch discussion, but how are people currently using that to benefit from it the most? (not doubting you, I just can't really grasp how far this can be taken)
for the slam classes - they can bind 1 key to do /switch to shield, brutalise (if lvl50)+slam backup to swap and slam in 1 button, you don't wanna know how many times ive been slammed by a merc or bm running with 2weapons after a PA before i can land a CD (and thats with 1.8-1.9s swingspeed)

for all general classes - (i didnt use it but if it stays for release i will, otherwise you're bound to lose fights you would win due to manual errors)
the ability to put up to 4(or more)styles on 1 key, useful for example if you have an anytime chain of 2 or 3 styles, + a reactionary chain of 2, you can bind 1 key to do reaction followup -> reaction -> anytime followup 2/1 -> anytime. The game doesnt let you queue a style that you didnt use the prereq for, so what ends up happening is on a fresh combat, you will do reactionary + anytime backup, on the 2nd swing depending on result of the first it will do reaction followup + anytime OR reactionary + anytime followup. It's complicated to explain but imagine not having to worry about pressing the right button AT ALL during combat and still getting off your best combo's given the results. instead of having 5styles that you have to press if you want to duplicate this manually, its 1

another example they use is positionals. This is important for some classes who rely on positional styles for a stun or a heavy asd. You can bind the positional + an anytime, or 2 positionals and do all your focusing on running through targets or trying to get your position. for example an NS or CD ranger wants to get a side style for the stun. They can bind side + backstyle and just run through targets and with the right coordination of turning after running through, theyll get a sidestyle off
Again, doing this manually is MUCH harder if not impossible against another player who is also moving, but i've had it happen to me, even with perfect movement on my part

for magic users for example healers, ive read alot of people do "double abilities" on the same key based on target, for example mez & demez, disease & cure disease, debuff vs heal etc. That allows them to reduce their muscle memory to half based on what they target

what it all boils down to is it lets you reduce the number of active buttons you have to push to attain perfect playing. for melee'ers, it can go from 10buttons to 3, for some classes it can go from 20+ to 10 maybe. It's no longer about skill and muscle memory but playing with the help of a computer basically

Good players already had those keys next to each other regardless of macros. For example, since pre-SI I've always had my anytime melee style at 3. Why? Because I have my 2nd in chain to the anytime at 1 and the reactionary at 2. This means that when I'm doing a normal style chain with a potential reaction I hit 123 in order every time.

It's not hard to do. In the case you mentioned above (healers with friendly/unfriendly targets for spells) you simply put the 2 keys next to each other and spam them. That's the muscle memory that good players have anyways so it's not so different than macroing.

Mon 26 Nov 2018 7:25 PM by Sepplord

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 6:49 PM
Foadon wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 11:38 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 2:04 AM
kind off off topic to the /switch discussion, but how are people currently using that to benefit from it the most? (not doubting you, I just can't really grasp how far this can be taken)
for the slam classes - they can bind 1 key to do /switch to shield, brutalise (if lvl50)+slam backup to swap and slam in 1 button, you don't wanna know how many times ive been slammed by a merc or bm running with 2weapons after a PA before i can land a CD (and thats with 1.8-1.9s swingspeed)

for all general classes - (i didnt use it but if it stays for release i will, otherwise you're bound to lose fights you would win due to manual errors)
the ability to put up to 4(or more)styles on 1 key, useful for example if you have an anytime chain of 2 or 3 styles, + a reactionary chain of 2, you can bind 1 key to do reaction followup -> reaction -> anytime followup 2/1 -> anytime. The game doesnt let you queue a style that you didnt use the prereq for, so what ends up happening is on a fresh combat, you will do reactionary + anytime backup, on the 2nd swing depending on result of the first it will do reaction followup + anytime OR reactionary + anytime followup. It's complicated to explain but imagine not having to worry about pressing the right button AT ALL during combat and still getting off your best combo's given the results. instead of having 5styles that you have to press if you want to duplicate this manually, its 1

another example they use is positionals. This is important for some classes who rely on positional styles for a stun or a heavy asd. You can bind the positional + an anytime, or 2 positionals and do all your focusing on running through targets or trying to get your position. for example an NS or CD ranger wants to get a side style for the stun. They can bind side + backstyle and just run through targets and with the right coordination of turning after running through, theyll get a sidestyle off
Again, doing this manually is MUCH harder if not impossible against another player who is also moving, but i've had it happen to me, even with perfect movement on my part

for magic users for example healers, ive read alot of people do "double abilities" on the same key based on target, for example mez & demez, disease & cure disease, debuff vs heal etc. That allows them to reduce their muscle memory to half based on what they target

what it all boils down to is it lets you reduce the number of active buttons you have to push to attain perfect playing. for melee'ers, it can go from 10buttons to 3, for some classes it can go from 20+ to 10 maybe. It's no longer about skill and muscle memory but playing with the help of a computer basically

Good players already had those keys next to each other regardless of macros. For example, since pre-SI I've always had my anytime melee style at 3. Why? Because I have my 2nd in chain to the anytime at 1 and the reactionary at 2. This means that when I'm doing a normal style chain with a potential reaction I hit 123 in order every time.

It's not hard to do. In the case you mentioned above (healers with friendly/unfriendly targets for spells) you simply put the 2 keys next to each other and spam them. That's the muscle memory that good players have anyways so it's not so different than macroing.

Sorry, but that is ridiculously downplaying the usefulness....
you do not have unlimited buttons with easy access, and you are still pressing three buttons instead of just one

i was under the assumption that, since delays aren't allowed all inputs would be done at the same time, aka switching to shield and slam not working because when slam was input you would not have the shield equipped. so you would at least need to press the button twice.

THIS is a HUGE difference ...not saying I dislike it, although macroing whole chains together seems a bit too far

the only question I have left is, is there a way to do it ingame? or do you have to set up everything and macro it with a third party tool?

Mon 26 Nov 2018 7:52 PM by Dimir

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 7:25 PM
the only question I have left is, is there a way to do it ingame? or do you have to set up everything and macro it with a third party tool?

There isn't any way to do multiple commands with 1 button/click in game, but pretty much every MMO mouse or modern keyboard has functionality for making these macros. I'm sure there are some software only solutions if you don't have either of those.

I think the conversation has steered a bit away from /switch, I only mentioned the rule in the OP because it enabled /switch to be much easier. I don't want them to change that rule either.

Sat 1 Dec 2018 11:45 PM by Dimir

Just giving a little bump, hoping that the staff will communicate a decision on this.

Coming from someone who wants to play an assassin (which arguably has the most potential to abuse /switch) I think this should be removed. It was never on live.

Tue 11 Dec 2018 3:11 PM by Dimir

Another reason I hate switch: No point adding a skin or glow to my weapon because I'll carry 20 of them.

Tue 11 Dec 2018 4:15 PM by Mura

Dimir wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Dec 2018 3:11 PM
Another reason I hate switch: No point adding a skin or glow to my weapon because I'll carry 20 of them.

My friend, you miss the silver lining here. You have the potential to have 20 different skins and glows!

Tue 11 Dec 2018 4:35 PM by Dimir

Mura wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Dec 2018 4:15 PM
Dimir wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Dec 2018 3:11 PM
Another reason I hate switch: No point adding a skin or glow to my weapon because I'll carry 20 of them.

My friend, you miss the silver lining here. You have the potential to have 20 different skins and glows!

Maybe I can give my opponent a seizure with all the changing colors.