Roll back both xp nerfs please.

You need to roll back both xp nerfs please. Based on my testing solo xp is now terrible. Also pl xp is now terrible.

You did the nerf to xp for xp items making it one turn in per level. That was substantial.

Based on my soloing and attempting to pl, I feel like xp levels are now way too slow.

The increase in xp requirements which you did twice? Really bad and needs to be reversed.

Cap xp at 30 almost does not move the xp bar at all. You almost cannot tell.

If i'm wrong or if I'm an idiot. Sorry. But based on this idiot's observations -- please examine and address xp .

Thanks

Thx xp item nerf was sufficient, imo.

Thu 22 Nov 2018 2:46 PM by Renork

Grind....ala Uthgard style? That does not sound fun at all.

Thu 22 Nov 2018 4:13 PM by Magesty

Impressive how the direct dev response to these same complaints in a previous thread just went in one ear and out the other. I guess that probably happens a lot when there is nothing impeding that particular pathway.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=2952&p=18417#p18417

I’ve spent enough time reading these boards to have what I consider to be a good handle on your posting strategy:

1) Find anything that is bothering you.
2) Post about it in the form of a general question that is somewhat leading, but appears to be genuine.
3) Use that thread to rail and complain about perceived injustice.
4) Receive reasonable, but increasingly frustrated responses from devs or other players. Respond by restating your initial point, perhaps with some hyperbole sprinkled in, while generally ignoring what they are saying.
4a) Make references to “testing”.
5) Abandon thread.
6) Post a new topic directly complaining about whatever your new issue of the day is.
7) Use new thread to repost same anecdotal and hyperbolic arguments while never directly addressing anything but the weakest responses.
7a) Make references to “testing”.
8) Return to step 1.

Thu 22 Nov 2018 5:31 PM by Waygone

I do find it suspicious that these XP nerfs all come in after i50. While I understand tasks were introduced after i50, but without a number of players testing how can it be properly tested and adjusted of needed?

Thu 22 Nov 2018 5:42 PM by Doiri

Waygone wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Nov 2018 5:31 PM
I do find it suspicious that these XP nerfs all come in after i50. While I understand tasks were introduced after i50, but without a number of players testing how can it be properly tested and adjusted of needed?

they must be plotting something!

Thu 22 Nov 2018 5:51 PM by Magesty

Waygone wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Nov 2018 5:31 PM
I do find it suspicious that these XP nerfs all come in after i50. While I understand tasks were introduced after i50, but without a number of players testing how can it be properly tested and adjusted of needed?

A very valid question. I don’t know if suspicious is the right word, but I thought the same thing.

I would hazard to guess it is a matter of simple math. I’m guessing the devs have a good grasp on XP/leveling rates, and the numbers behind them.

For example the average group pulling reds and purples at an average rate earns X per hour at each level. Adjust for downtime finding groups, changing camps, general fucking around, account for the task/item bonuses and there you have it— a passable guess at what the leveling speed will be at each level.

Unfortunately for some “gamers” this isn’t a quest-based game like WoW. Taking advantage of every thing as a solo leveler (damage types, xp items, tasks, bonus zones, etc) will make all the difference between a fairly quick leveling experience and a slower one. If they are going to include these things in the game they can’t then balance the XP rate around players who refuse to utilize them.

Thu 22 Nov 2018 6:42 PM by relvinian

Magesty wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Nov 2018 4:13 PM
Impressive how the direct dev response to these same complaints in a previous thread just went in one ear and out the other. I guess that probably happens a lot when there is nothing impeding that particular pathway.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=2952&p=18417#p18417

I’ve spent enough time reading these boards to have what I consider to be a good handle on your posting strategy:

1) Find anything that is bothering you.
2) Post about it in the form of a general question that is somewhat leading, but appears to be genuine.
3) Use that thread to rail and complain about perceived injustice.
4) Receive reasonable, but increasingly frustrated responses from devs or other players. Respond by restating your initial point, perhaps with some hyperbole sprinkled in, while generally ignoring what they are saying.
4a) Make references to “testing”.
5) Abandon thread.
6) Post a new topic directly complaining about whatever your new issue of the day is.
7) Use new thread to repost same anecdotal and hyperbolic arguments while never directly addressing anything but the weakest responses.
7a) Make references to “testing”.
8) Return to step 1.

I have a theory of my own:
1. Relvinian spends his time in an attempt to help the game he loves.
2. People crap on him.
3. Later on Relvinian is proven right.

Thu 22 Nov 2018 6:53 PM by Kaziera

another way of victimizing yourself.......

Thu 22 Nov 2018 7:00 PM by Schamalow

It's funny because I think it was very easy to xp here maybe too easy xD.

@relvinian You complaint about solo exp and pl.

I don't like pl so I don't really care about pl xp.
I will talk about solo xp. Just a little observation. To be good at solo xp, you need a good solo class. If you try to solo xp with a healer, ofc it will be slow.

So I actually xp a friar and I personnaly think it's very fast.

Why?
You have free very good gears with ennemy's loot.
Money isn't an issues.
You got one rp at level 5 = free tireless
You can chain farm blue-yellow at low level without resting / up to yellow-orange at higher level
You earn some XP bonus per pve task = very powerfull bonus and you can manage to do multiple tasks with one mob
You have sometimes XP Item to help you = easy level when you farm them
You have eggs to boost XP if needed (I didn't use them yet)
From previous test, I already know that you can go 40-50 in about 10 hours with farm XP Item & Eegs on Albion.

And you have more bonuses when you grp. So I can let you imagine how fast you can xp on grp. (with a good grp ofc, not a grp who died all the time ^^)

So I can't find how you believe that the xp is slow. Which class do you used to solo xp?
Do you have play on other classic DAOC server? On this kind of server, the xp system is by far longer & harder than here.
What is your experience of a fast xp? Like on live who you just run & kill for three quests on bg? (Maybe it has changed because i didn't play live a long time ago)
Because to be honest, I think it's the fastest & easiest xp system I have seeing in a long time ago on DAOC (except live again)

Fri 23 Nov 2018 5:38 AM by Waygone

Schamalow wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Nov 2018 7:00 PM
It's funny because I think it was very easy to xp here maybe too easy xD.

@relvinian You complaint about solo exp and pl.

I don't like pl so I don't really care about pl xp.
I will talk about solo xp. Just a little observation. To be good at solo xp, you need a good solo class. If you try to solo xp with a healer, ofc it will be slow.

So I actually xp a friar and I personnaly think it's very fast.

Why?
You have free very good gears with ennemy's loot.
Money isn't an issues.
You got one rp at level 5 = free tireless
You can chain farm blue-yellow at low level without resting / up to yellow-orange at higher level
You earn some XP bonus per pve task = very powerfull bonus and you can manage to do multiple tasks with one mob
You have sometimes XP Item to help you = easy level when you farm them
You have eggs to boost XP if needed (I didn't use them yet)
From previous test, I already know that you can go 40-50 in about 10 hours with farm XP Item & Eegs on Albion.

And you have more bonuses when you grp. So I can let you imagine how fast you can xp on grp. (with a good grp ofc, not a grp who died all the time ^^)

So I can't find how you believe that the xp is slow. Which class do you used to solo xp?
Do you have play on other classic DAOC server? On this kind of server, the xp system is by far longer & harder than here.
What is your experience of a fast xp? Like on live who you just run & kill for three quests on bg? (Maybe it has changed because i didn't play live a long time ago)
Because to be honest, I think it's the fastest & easiest xp system I have seeing in a long time ago on DAOC (except live again)

So, you have tested the leveling rate since the nerfs, or is this prior to i50?
Just wanted to make sure since I found the leveling perfect prior to i50. I leveled about 6 characters to 50 in that span.

Fri 23 Nov 2018 5:42 AM by Waygone

Magesty wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Nov 2018 5:51 PM
Waygone wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Nov 2018 5:31 PM
I do find it suspicious that these XP nerfs all come in after i50. While I understand tasks were introduced after i50, but without a number of players testing how can it be properly tested and adjusted of needed?

A very valid question. I don’t know if suspicious is the right word, but I thought the same thing.

I would hazard to guess it is a matter of simple math. I’m guessing the devs have a good grasp on XP/leveling rates, and the numbers behind them.

For example the average group pulling reds and purples at an average rate earns X per hour at each level. Adjust for downtime finding groups, changing camps, general fucking around, account for the task/item bonuses and there you have it— a passable guess at what the leveling speed will be at each level.

Unfortunately for some “gamers” this isn’t a quest-based game like WoW. Taking advantage of every thing as a solo leveler (damage types, xp items, tasks, bonus zones, etc) will make all the difference between a fairly quick leveling experience and a slower one. If they are going to include these things in the game they can’t then balance the XP rate around players who refuse to utilize them.

Suspicious is not the word I should have used. I know the devs aren't trying to pull a fast one on us.😋
I just hope adequate testing is done for all playstyles prior to launch..
I will personally try it out tomorrow and make a report..

Fri 23 Nov 2018 1:21 PM by

Uthred

Sooooo, I tried it myself. I couldnt believe that solo xp is that bad.

First I was leveling from 1 to 5. it took me 18 mins.
[attachment=4]lvl5.JPG[/attachment]

Then i continued to level 8, which I reached after 44 mins.
[attachment=3]level8.JPG[/attachment]

Then I made a new char and wanted to test how long I would need to level from 16 to 17. Remembering that Relv was saying, that he needed like ~ 2hours at level 16 to level up. I was leveling in classic open world, without any help (no tinder, no endu pots, no dungeon bonus, no fz bonus). Basically I was leveling the slowest possible way bonuswise. It took me 35 mins (including equipping the char and training it).
[attachment=2]lvl16.JPG[/attachment]

Funny Sidenote: I didnt realized at first, that I was killing mobs, that dropped xp items. I had to kill 45 mobs to reach 9.95 bubs and they gave me 21 xp items and 986 eggs. I stopped at 9.95 bubs, gave 10 xp items to the NPC, dinged lvl 17 and had another 8.48 bubs.
[attachment=1]8.48bubs.JPG[/attachment]

After that i gave the eggs to the trainer, dinged to lvl 18 and had 1.63 bubs on this level.
[attachment=0]1.63bubs.JPG[/attachment]

So, in roundabout 40 mins I made it from lvl 16 to 17 solo, plus the extra level because of the xp items and eggs. Yes, I was playing a menta and not an infi like Relv did, so I was expecting to be faster, but 40 mins is a huge difference to 2 hours.

Now imagine how fast it would have been, if I would have been leveling in a fz dungeon (30% fz bonus and 20% dungeon bonus). The menta didnt have aoe-dot (gets it at lvl 17), so I had to kill each mob solo. This will even increase the levelspeed further more.

To sum it up, some classes will take longer to level solo than other classes. That is known and not a surprise at all, but if you really want to level those hard-to-level-solo-classes without a grp and in the slowest possible way, then it will take some time. But please dont complain about the level speed, as there are many different possibilities to make your pve-life easier. For example: dont level those toons solo (there is a reason why we put in the social grp-bonus) or dont level them as your first toon, but as a twink when you have some money to buy level-helpers like pots, tinders, xp items, gear and so on.

As I said in the other thread before: If you refuse to the many different bonuses that we are offering for pve, than there is nothing we can do for you.

Fri 23 Nov 2018 4:03 PM by relvinian

"
As I said in the other thread before: If you refuse to the many different bonuses that we are offering for pve, than there is nothing we can do for you. "

If you get all the bonuses and do everything a certain way, then I imagine it is tolerable to level here. I'm pretty sure the optimal group in the optimal environment will do quite well. However, when you go to the frontier solo, you will get killed A LOT. If you give up on that and go to a dungeon you will find it is EXTREMELY CAMPED.

If you go to xp item camps, I would well imagine if they are in normal areas they will be camped. If they are in frontier you will die A LOT.

I played a sight necro this morning for about an hour and played in Catacombs of Cordova this morning and frontier. And I would agree with you that if you have the right class and you play in the right areas that you can get acceptable xp gain, even solo, if you take advantage of frontier bonuses and dungeon bonuses.

If all those areas are camped or full of pks, and you go to the rest of the world, xp has been increased from the base daoc normal xp TWO SEPARATE TIMES.

Make it what you will. My opinion is that nobody will quit due to leveling an extra percentage quicker (whatever removing your two nerfs would be). But they may go to dungeons, find them camped. Go to frontiers and get killed by players a lot. Then go to a normal space and see their bar not move. Then log out. Sure they may be uninformed about all the tricks of the server, but BASE DAOC XP required to gain levels was INCREASED.

And in my humble opinion, it would be better to remove the double xp requirement change. And just leave it be. Who cares if an uber l337 player gets a toon leveled to 50 fast. Then they can work on crafters or make their next uber l337 toon to 50. You will keep the hardcore players if you make them play daoc on the metaphorical sun, naked, in a thong. They will exploit whatever meta there is and come back for more.

The lifeblood of servers are casuals and solo players-- in my opinion. That slogan about strength in diversity which is usually a little wrong, is never wrong when it comes to sales. The more diverse people you can get to use your product the better off you are. Removing the xp increase won't lose your market share of hardcore nerds living in their mom's basement. It will increase your market share of players with kids and jobs.

Edit: One more thing.

DAOC is already a bit elitist. You have people waiting to form perfect groups with perfect class selection. You have people saying if it isn't a cleric or det tank, we don't want you. Etc. Oh, you're an ice theurgist? Sorry we don't want you. If it isn't the perfect class for the perfect group, both in pvp, or pve, then they don't want you. There are just so many people that don't fit in those perfect categories due to temperament, real life situations, or availability of time to play. You want those people too. And even the elite ubernuber players, they want alts so they can cover their perfect groups with some depth.

It appears as though you have optimized one or two paths for leveling but if you do not follow those optimal paths you have actually made it more difficult to level.

Fri 23 Nov 2018 5:16 PM by Takii

Uhh ok but all of the issues you outline above are theoretical. The actual things you were complaining about having "tested" (with no actual numbers to back it up) have been pretty thoroughly disproven by the post above yours.

Fri 23 Nov 2018 5:53 PM by relvinian

Takii wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 5:16 PM
Uhh ok but all of the issues you outline above are theoretical. The actual things you were complaining about having "tested" (with no actual numbers to back it up) have been pretty thoroughly disproven by the post above yours.

Without eggs, tasks, frontier and dungeon bonuses, xp is slower than traditional daoc.

Eggs alone are not enough to make up for the change.

So again, without frontier and dungeons all you get are the tasks, and that about is not enough to make up for the loss, or at best only for the first ste of taks and you should find some other task to do or log out. This is based on my xp this morning. XP without bonuses of any kind in normal area is very very slow.

2 bubbles of xp per hour or so on sight necro at lvl 31 (tired of testing today I played 10 minutes and multiplied.)
Is that all the xp you will get? Nope. You can do specific things, go to specific places, and you will get more. But you have to do those things to get to acceptable xp. If you cant or don't want to find a group and frontier is full of pks and dungeons are camped you will experience this. If you don't know any better you may experience this and decide not to try the server.

Test it for yourself. Make a lvl 30 toon and go to a camp and start the clock. Play for 10 minutes and multiply your results for one hour and see what base xp looks like. Lyons, whatever.

Fri 23 Nov 2018 6:10 PM by Magesty

You don't have to be an uber leet player to find a decent group or solo semi-effectively. You basically just have to be a person with a partially functioning brain capable of making simple decisions.

You don't need to be a no-lifer "living in his mom's basement" to manage to play the game with a baseline level of competence.

You certainly don't need to be elitist to manage to play for a couple hours a few times a week.

What is this post even? How can you continue to complain about experience rates when Uthred took two hours of his time to effectively curb stomp your entire argument?

Unlike in politics, appealing to some amorphous lowest common denominator of barely functioning semi-humans doesn't work for game balance. Those types of people aren't average "casuals" of a nearly two decade old game-- in fact, I'd wager they are barely represented in the player population.

Fri 23 Nov 2018 6:22 PM by Seigmoraig

Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 6:10 PM
Unlike in politics, appealing to some amorphous lowest common denominator of barely functioning semi-humans doesn't work for game balance.

I lold because its true

Fri 23 Nov 2018 6:25 PM by Takii

If you ignore 50% of the xp sources in the game, you will indeed level slower. I think you've discovered something big here.

Fri 23 Nov 2018 7:31 PM by relvinian

If you think my argument was countered by someone on an empty server with an optimal class going to optimal camps, then you did not read my post.

How about the basic proposition that nobody every quit a game because xp gain was too fast but many quit because, right or wrong, they perceived it was too slow?

If you solo should you be punished for it? If camps are full should you be punished for it? If dungeons are full should you be punished for it? If some barrel shooter lvl 50 twink wtfpowns u over and over again how is that working out on your time xping?

Also, what about increasing base xp and then adding bonuses? How about at minimum leaving the xp alone and THEN adjusting from there?

Does that mean that huge swaths of daoc are extremely sub prime xp spots? So why are they there?

Fri 23 Nov 2018 7:36 PM by relvinian

Seigmoraig wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 6:22 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 6:10 PM
Unlike in politics, appealing to some amorphous lowest common denominator of barely functioning semi-humans doesn't work for game balance.

I lold because its true

You don't think barely functioning semi humans play free online games?

I do object to the semi human part as I believe everyone is intrinsically valuable.

But surely some people who struggle in real life must play online games. I solo, for example because I have a child was born 24 ounces at 25 weeks. She is autistic. Sometimes I must drop everything and go take care of her. It happens so often that I usually avoid grouping.

I have talked with numerous people ingame who shared their life experiences with me and, believe me, everyone struggles at times.

What about the guy working 10 hour shifts who wants to play for a couple hours here and there? What about the guy with a regular job, a wife and kid he wants to spend time with, and who wants to solo or doesn't have time to find a group or can't find it?

Fri 23 Nov 2018 7:41 PM by Seigmoraig

relvinian wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 7:36 PM
Seigmoraig wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 6:22 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 6:10 PM
Unlike in politics, appealing to some amorphous lowest common denominator of barely functioning semi-humans doesn't work for game balance.

I lold because its true

You don't think barely functioning semi humans play free online games?

I do object to the semi human part as I believe everyone is intrinsically valuable.

But surely some people who struggle in real life must play online games. I solo, for example because I have a child was born 24 ounces at 25 weeks. She is autistic. Sometimes I must drop everything and go take care of her. It happens so often that I usually avoid grouping.

I have talked with numerous people ingame who shared their life experiences with me and, believe me, everyone struggles at times.

What about the guy working 10 hour shifts who wants to play for a couple hours here and there? What about the guy with a regular job, a wife and kid he wants to spend time with, and who wants to solo or doesn't have time to find a group or can't find it?

I personally don't have anything against you or how you play or your opinions, I just thought that was a hilariously on point joke about trump supporters

P.S the song you link to in your sig is broken

Fri 23 Nov 2018 9:27 PM by Doiri

relvinian wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 7:31 PM
[...]

How about the basic proposition that nobody every quit a game because xp gain was too fast but many quit because, right or wrong, they perceived it was too slow?

If you solo should you be punished for it? If camps are full should you be punished for it? If dungeons are full should you be punished for it? If some barrel shooter lvl 50 twink wtfpowns u over and over again how is that working out on your time xping?

[...]

But surely some people who struggle in real life must play online games. I solo, for example because I have a child was born 24 ounces at 25 weeks. She is autistic. Sometimes I must drop everything and go take care of her. It happens so often that I usually avoid grouping.

[...]

What about the guy working 10 hour shifts who wants to play for a couple hours here and there? What about the guy with a regular job, a wife and kid he wants to spend time with, and who wants to solo or doesn't have time to find a group or can't find it?

sounds like a low-key proposal to keep i50

Fri 23 Nov 2018 11:45 PM by Takii

This is not DAoC 2. This is a classic DAOC server and it comes with everything that implies.

The guy who only has 3 hours a week to play this game and insists on soloing an infiltrator on this server when he knows full well that is a terrible solo class (unlike people back in 2002 who did not have the benefit of hindsight) has made a poor and entirely avoidable life choice.

Sat 24 Nov 2018 3:08 AM by Sepplord

Uthred wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 1:21 PM
Sooooo, I tried it myself. I couldnt believe that solo xp is that bad.

First I was leveling from 1 to 5. it took me 18 mins.
lvl5.JPG

Then i continued to level 8, which I reached after 44 mins.
level8.JPG

Then I made a new char and wanted to test how long I would need to level from 16 to 17. Remembering that Relv was saying, that he needed like ~ 2hours at level 16 to level up. I was leveling in classic open world, without any help (no tinder, no endu pots, no dungeon bonus, no fz bonus). Basically I was leveling the slowest possible way bonuswise. It took me 35 mins (including equipping the char and training it).
lvl16.JPG

Funny Sidenote: I didnt realized at first, that I was killing mobs, that dropped xp items. I had to kill 45 mobs to reach 9.95 bubs and they gave me 21 xp items and 986 eggs. I stopped at 9.95 bubs, gave 10 xp items to the NPC, dinged lvl 17 and had another 8.48 bubs.
8.48bubs.JPG

After that i gave the eggs to the trainer, dinged to lvl 18 and had 1.63 bubs on this level.
1.63bubs.JPG

So, in roundabout 40 mins I made it from lvl 16 to 17 solo, plus the extra level because of the xp items and eggs. Yes, I was playing a menta and not an infi like Relv did, so I was expecting to be faster, but 40 mins is a huge difference to 2 hours.

Now imagine how fast it would have been, if I would have been leveling in a fz dungeon (30% fz bonus and 20% dungeon bonus). The menta didnt have aoe-dot (gets it at lvl 17), so I had to kill each mob solo. This will even increase the levelspeed further more.

To sum it up, some classes will take longer to level solo than other classes. That is known and not a surprise at all, but if you really want to level those hard-to-level-solo-classes without a grp and in the slowest possible way, then it will take some time. But please dont complain about the level speed, as there are many different possibilities to make your pve-life easier. For example: dont level those toons solo (there is a reason why we put in the social grp-bonus) or dont level them as your first toon, but as a twink when you have some money to buy level-helpers like pots, tinders, xp items, gear and so on.

As I said in the other thread before: If you refuse to the many different bonuses that we are offering for pve, than there is nothing we can do for you.

I apprecciate you taking your time to investigate this "problem" (if it is one), but I must say when reading that I fear that I will have to know exactly where to go to get half decent XP. Are there sources how your XP items / Egg systems work? Have you considered casuals not researching and planning out every step and camp for every level?
It seems like your experience will be the one of a seasoned player leveling his third toon, and not the average players first impression on the server.

I really hope I am wrong though, and the ROG system does sound really great, so please pardon me if this comment seems ignorant to you.

If anyone has information where I can read up on things I would appreciate that (so far I only know about the thread with the spreadsheet for the Egg-items...and a few baritone bits on the wiki

Sat 24 Nov 2018 3:13 AM by relvinian

Takii wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 11:45 PM
This is not DAoC 2. This is a classic DAOC server and it comes with everything that implies.

The guy who only has 3 hours a week to play this game and insists on soloing an infiltrator on this server when he knows full well that is a terrible solo class (unlike people back in 2002 who did not have the benefit of hindsight) has made a poor and entirely avoidable life choice.

It's like you are virtue signaling for each other in some sort of ill advised group hug.

This is a beta. They increased BASE xp required twice which is needed to level. They put in lots of custom changes. We still have lots of time left to tweak things. Having a different opinion is what we call a good thing. Having a discussion, also called a good thing.

If someone plays three hours per week they are not going to get much out of an online game. But if you had a lvl 50 toon with good gear you could get something out of the end game playing an hour a day.

Why the hell would anyone argue for slower xp to 50? Not talking i50. There is a whole range between i50 and uthgard.

If they took the two xp increases out and restored base xp requirements to the same levels that all other daoc ever made were, is that bad?

If joe schmoe gets his 50 in 3 days instead of 5 who cares? Odds are he is gonna make another 50 and another. And a couple crafters.

But if you let the casual in your population will be more stable and remain higher.

Sat 24 Nov 2018 3:20 AM by relvinian

Optimal xp is found in several ways:

1. In rvr areas there is a bonus.
2. Mostly you want full groups because every class adds to a bonus-- 2 clerics is only 1 bonus but 8 different classes is full bonus.
3. If you can't find a group you can solo and get eggs which u turn in to trainers.
4. Personal tasks are also bonuses. kill 15 undead kill 25 animals, etc. Some places like dungeons u get two tasks at a time, whatever you are killing plus the dungeon critter task. Frontier you get rvr bs, frontier bs, regular task. In frontier dungeon in full group you would end up with class bonuses for the full group, plus rvr bonus, dungeon bonus, personal critter, etc.
5. Also you can do xp items, Different mobs drop xp items which you can turn in one total set of xp items (10 wolf peens or whatever) per level. After you made a turn in of one set you cant turn in another (different item set) set until you ding.

Now if you are in lyonesse, which is a huge area in alb-- u get personal tasks and you get eggs if solo but you don't get all the other nifty stuff. Meanwhile, they have increased the cost to attain each level twice from standard daoc. So that means in that area without rvr bonus or dungeon bonus, you get eggs solo, and you get class, etc. but really I question how good the xp is in say a normal area as compared to standard daoc.

You can absolutely level here on certain paths in a reasonable time. The best possible thing you can do is make friends and group. If you are a loner, don't make friends well, etc, then do the best you can.

Sat 24 Nov 2018 4:14 AM by cortexqc

the big problem with all test on 20 or 40mn is the pve task.creating other char and test again they make test broken... why?
Cause pve personnal task (reset on next char and first level are fast) they give good xp in the first 20 40 mn but each level are bigger to reach.
exemple the last day i tested a zerk lvl 40 full buffed pot in DF non stop farming 20mn.
when i say non stop is full chain like a machine no regen, 1 yellow each 15second.
i do around 60% that is really good (maybe too much in 20 mn)
But why ?
perfect conditions. good class. full buffed. alone in the best area. around 20% bonus realm +
40% underpopulated xp.
now focus on the 60% repartitions
in 20 mn i make 6 personnal task (3 X lvl 2 = killed 80 humanoid)
but if i continue i can only make the next level 3 in same time cause each level stack the in this case 25 (1) 50 (2) 75(3)
and if i continue more how many time to reach lvl 4 ?
so xp falling quickly and base xp + egg are a joke. on the 60% base+egg are a small part. (egg is 4 to 5%) and normal xp not much more...

my question is ? why so slow base xp and egg but pve personnal task so big?
since a fat solo class or group can anyway farm faster pve personnal task (chain yellow solo or orange in group) than other solo class.
and since the problem is solo xp (slow) vs group (too fast).
why add global boost like pve personnal task boosting group xp and nerf twice the total of xp needed to all players to balance this change cause groups xp too fast...
the more impacted player and the looser of this changes are solo player again...
the "realm pve task" are really good idea with permanent xp boost to realm.
but "daily pve personnal task"... why not deleted or cut daily personnal task and boost base xp + egg to have a more flat xp rate and solo boost??
this way you can balance and boost solo and nerf groups.

With the actual personnal task system the way i'm going to play on live is :
Make 3 to 6 chars same time.
play 20mn each chars each days rush first level personnal task
log out wait 24h
next day log each chars with task reset rush 20mn 2 level task log out.
rinse and repeat again.... really fun...

or play 2 hours the same char and see xp dropping down and begin to be boring...

Sat 24 Nov 2018 9:27 AM by

gruenesschaf

So what you're saying is is that it's bad that those who only have an hour or two at most per day get the most benefit of the personal / daily pve tasks and actually see progress each time they login regardless of them being in group or not.

If you have more time than that in a given session / per day there is no reason you're not grouping other than that you want to solo and if you actually want to solo for a prolonged amounted of time you'll have to live with xp being slower than in group unless you level exclusively at xp item spots.

The personal / daily pve tasks have exactly 3 purposes:
1) Act like not accumulating rest xp (via increasing requirements that reset daily)
2) Provide a gimmicky extra bonus while leveling at a specific spot
3) Encourage switching spots / make other spots a bit more viable due to there being other mob types

Sat 24 Nov 2018 10:42 AM by relvinian

I think since it is a beta the xp should be tweaked. This is still testing.

Melee toons are quite strong. It is possible for a melee toon to compete successfully with a caster here.

For example, a scout with pots can farm yellows one after another.

Even a sight necro might kill slower due to resists.

I think the discussion is worthwhile concerning experience because it is one of the most vital issues of a server.

I think the fastest xp would be a balanced group doing xp items. Particularly in the frontier or dungeons.

Farm xp items. Turn in set. Farm more. Ding Turn in another set.

I don't think the various nerfs on xp will slow down determined groups all that much. I think there will be hardcores getting 50 p.d.q.

But I think not knowing all the nuances that some casuals or beginners might struggle.

That is why I point out that what matters the most is getting the casuals and the solos. What was the original goal stated for time? I can't remember.

I think that you should be able to solo to 50 playing 2 hours per day in one month. 60 hours in game solo, should get you to 50 on one toon. That seems reasonable to me. That is like watching a 2 hour movie every day or studying a language every day for 2 hours. For someone who wants to balance life, job, family, etc, 2 hours a day playing an online game seems reasonable. So help those people get into the game. WHO CARES about how many toons some hardcore person makes in the same amount of time?

That is why I suggest removing the 2 xp changes. Take them out, and who really cares? What is the problem exactly that was addressed by increasing xp? Someone will get to 50 too soon? Someone will get to 50 too soon regardless.

I do think that some soft caps might be useful for awhile on launch-- universal df, no keeps being taken, no tasks-- for a set period of time so some hardcore types don't just dominate the universe and get unfair advantage on normal people. Cap max rr 5 for first 2 weeks or month etc

Sat 24 Nov 2018 11:54 AM by relvinian

I tested a friar, which is a beast btw, with 50 point heal procs, good gear and stats, and never running out of end due to end chant.

I played one hour at lvl 30 and got 5.6 bubbles of xp including personal tasks and eggs.

This class almost never stopped chaining mobs. Never stopped for end or health or mana.

This was in cornwall in and out of the dungeon.

Other classes who needed to sit for power, end, or health-- clearly would be slower. Friar is a machine.

Most of the real gains came from tasks, the eggs were not much. Had the dungeon been camped I would be a couple bubbles lower on xp I imagine.

XP included the following bonuses:

1. underpop bonus-- will we get this on launch? 11%

2. Realm task bonus-- will this exist when we launch? 15%

3. Realm score bonus-- will this exist when we launch? 33.87 %

Sat 24 Nov 2018 12:06 PM by

gruenesschaf

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Nov 2018 10:42 AM
I think that you should be able to solo to 50 playing 2 hours per day in one month. 60 hours in game solo, should get you to 50 on one toon. That seems reasonable to me. That is like watching a 2 hour movie every day or studying a language every day for 2 hours. For someone who wants to balance life, job, family, etc, 2 hours a day playing an online game seems reasonable. So help those people get into the game. WHO CARES about how many toons some hardcore person makes in the same amount of time?

That is exactly what the daily tasks are supposed to help with. If you do it either in the FZ or a dungeon you'll always get credit for at least 2 tasks with a single kill, if you then assume you kill 175 mobs in that time that means you will complete 8 tasks, with that you'll need about 20 hours (day 1-10) to 36, another 20 hours (day 11-20) from 36 to 44 and another 20 hours (day 21 - 30) from 44 to 50.

While it may be unlikely to always hit 175 mobs, it's equally unlikely that you never level at xp item spots, never level in DF and even more unlikely that you never group even once or never have another mob type near you to kill. In DF alone you'd get credit to 3 tasks with every kill and at least 2 mob types are easily accessible at almost every level (Demons and Humanoids).

In groups you get a lot more xp per kill as well as get those kills a lot faster, solo really is the slowest way to level and that's intentional, this is an MMO and grouping is heavily encouraged, however, we added the daily tasks to help those that only have a limited amount of time every day, that includes those that are forced to solo due their schedule or whatever.
What we do not want to encourage however is people intentionally soloing, if you have a lot of time to play every day and want to solo the whole time it will be the worst possible xp and you will easily need more than twice the intended /played time to 50.
The daily tasks make the first couple hours of play time every day a lot more valuable / effective than more hours, you will likely see the first 50s with /played times of around 36ish hours to 50 and at some point later see people with only 30 or even less hours /played to 50 because they played less per day and hence got to take more advantage of the tasks.

And don't misunderstand it, we are still looking for feedback wrt xp and will likely try to get a couple groups going some time in December to verify that but extended / exclusive solo play is intended to be rather bad in the higher levels.

Sat 24 Nov 2018 12:14 PM by Schamalow

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Nov 2018 10:42 AM
I think that you should be able to solo to 50 playing 2 hours per day in one month. 60 hours in game solo, should get you to 50 on one toon. That seems reasonable to me. That is like watching a 2 hour movie every day or studying a language every day for 2 hours. For someone who wants to balance life, job, family, etc, 2 hours a day playing an online game seems reasonable. So help those people get into the game. WHO CARES about how many toons some hardcore person makes in the same amount of time?

Actually, you can go up to 50 in 60 hours (2h per day) so what is your issues?

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Nov 2018 10:42 AM
That is why I suggest removing the 2 xp changes. Take them out, and who really cares? What is the problem exactly that was addressed by increasing xp? Someone will get to 50 too soon? Someone will get to 50 too soon regardless.

I think the xp is by far too easy and the xp grp bonus should be nerf.
You can be 50 in less than 1 week. That's maybe good for you but actually, on DAOC, I like the fact that to up 50, you should farm.
So don't think because you want xp faster than everyone wants it.

I enjoy when I take time on all dungeon like mithra/keltoi/tepok and not like 2 hours & bye bye because I up +5 level.
I enjoy the xp penalty (must be stronger on his serv) when you died. It force you to be focus and play well to not die.
I enjoy to go to some area & kill bosses < 50 for fun.
I enjoy doing quest & hope they will be more.
I enjoy bg.

So Yes, I enjoy the "early-game". There are a lot stuff to do & to go before 50.
A lot of people play for that and not only care about being 50.
It's to me one of the rare bad points of his server. So please, do not give more bonus xp...

Sat 24 Nov 2018 12:54 PM by

gruenesschaf

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Nov 2018 11:54 AM
1. underpop bonus-- will we get this on launch? 11%

Probably yes but it should hopefully be rather low, it's however possible that we will disable this for the first day(s). Unsure yet.

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Nov 2018 11:54 AM
2. Realm task bonus-- will this exist when we launch? 15%

This is 2 things, whenever a realm wide pve task completes everyone in that realm gets a 5% bonus for all kills for the next 24h + a permanent 1% bonus for the thing that task was covering (dungeon kills, frontier kills or mob type etc.). The requirements are dynamic based on how long the last completion took and will set the requirements to take 5 days to complete again. The initial completion will be set manually and probably rather low so that it is likely that a couple of them will complete on the first day or two already and thereby provide 10 - 25% extra kill xp for 24h.

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Nov 2018 11:54 AM
3. Realm score bonus-- will this exist when we launch? 33.87 %

Yes, it'll start with 33.33% for all realms.

Sat 24 Nov 2018 1:25 PM by relvinian

I'm asking the questions and spending my time testing. I'm reporting what I see in my testing.

I assume both the question and my testing have value, numerous personal attacks in this discussion notwithstanding.

If xp is fine, great. If it isn't then let's adjust it.

For example-- I made a lvl 40 friar and spent another hour testing xp today.

Running between dunters and clerks I got 3 bubbles xp after tasks and eggs PLUS 2 sets of 10 xp items with dunter heads and danoin poison.

Those camps may not be available due to farming, campers or pop. After 40 vs yellows the friar is a walking abattoir. Probably over tuned. Good God. But again really good gear with heal procs, etc. I did not use pots.

Sat 24 Nov 2018 7:05 PM by cortexqc

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Nov 2018 9:27 AM
So what you're saying is is that it's bad that those who only have an hour or two at most per day get the most benefit of the personal / daily pve tasks and actually see progress each time they login regardless of them being in group or not.

If you have more time than that in a given session / per day there is no reason you're not grouping other than that you want to solo and if you actually want to solo for a prolonged amounted of time you'll have to live with xp being slower than in group unless you level exclusively at xp item spots.

The personal / daily pve tasks have exactly 3 purposes:
1) Act like not accumulating rest xp (via increasing requirements that reset daily)
2) Provide a gimmicky extra bonus while leveling at a specific spot
3) Encourage switching spots / make other spots a bit more viable due to there being other mob types

i'm not saying that, i "think" bonus pve task available to solo/groups are not well balanced vs base xp+egg making basic solo xp very low even if changing spot.
and if you change spot you need to know different spot for your level. it's not very friendly to casual new player.

when i test and feedback about other player suggestions i see here i don't speak for me but for general purpose.
I'm going to play an OP solo class on live, not for this xp fast but just cause i love the class but i make test with other class cause i know if other player leave the game cause of leveling the 50 rvr gameplay can't be fun.

And yes i think like you ! if i play 2 or 3 hours/days a have time and chance to find a group but only if my play time are on high population hours.
i already face this situations on the start of the beta even when max player was around 800. depending on hours there is very rare group.

my suggestion is not give more global xp to solo but maybe reduce xp reward for personnal pve task impacting solo + groups and transfert the difference on basic + eggs rewards to make xp little more flat/balanced vs different time sessions instead of mega burst the first 20/40mn then drop critically.
other suggestion is if egg can make a unbalance advantage to 7 or 8 class op solo aoe class. you can make eggs exchange trainer limit per hours or per day. (or loot limit per hour? i don't know if possible)
to calculate this : play a normal medium xp char in normal situation and play 1 hour see how many mobs he can kill (eggs) test it at lvl 10 20 30 40 49 determine the quantity per level limit per hours or if you want a limit per day you can think about a reasonnable solo limit day (ex : someone soloing more than 3 hours per days is not normal) so make a daily egg limit of equal to 2 or 3 hours solo farming exchange limit.
this way you can control op class leveling with eggs.

i'm here to critical your feature just give feedback to balance them.
send me a MP if you want me to make specific test. i can give you some time and give you reports if this help the server community.

Mon 26 Nov 2018 4:25 PM by Kwall0311

I recommend trying to hard to solo classes the second time around ( if you mostly can only solo ). Get something group friendly and get 50 . You can start Alch and get to about 500-600 skill in about 2 hours only spending 1p . Probably a lot less if you sell back what you craft . Gives you access to full blue buffs/specs and endo/health regen.

And play your class smart. I just tried Shadowblade with full weapon spec and envenom (for evernating/str defbuff) at level 20, and soloed 20-23 in about 40 mins, chain pulling yellow/OJ with only downtime in reapplying poisons. Playing with the above method, I think it can be done in a reasonable amount of time as it currently is.

Mon 26 Nov 2018 5:46 PM by relvinian

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 4:25 PM
I recommend trying to hard to solo classes the second time around ( if you mostly can only solo ). Get something group friendly and get 50 . You can start Alch and get to about 500-600 skill in about 2 hours only spending 1p . Probably a lot less if you sell back what you craft . Gives you access to full blue buffs/specs and endo/health regen.

And play your class smart. I just tried Shadowblade with full weapon spec and envenom (for evernating/str defbuff) at level 20, and soloed 20-23 in about 40 mins, chain pulling yellow/OJ with only downtime in reapplying poisons. Playing with the above method, I think it can be done in a reasonable amount of time as it currently is.

Where did you solo? Frontier? DF? Dungeon?

It is what it is. If they leave xp the way it is would it hurt the server? Prolly not.

If they made xp faster by rolling back the nerfs would it hurt the server? NO.

Anyone who wants 50 bad enough will get it. Hardcore players are going to get it way faster than casuals.

Group players will get it faster than solo.

Casual solo players will get there eventually. Like a month if they are pretty dedicated.

In what part of any of those descriptions is slower xp better?

If they rolled the nerfs back-- in my opinion it would do zero harm and some good.

Mon 26 Nov 2018 5:58 PM by Kwall0311

relvinian wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 5:46 PM
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Nov 2018 4:25 PM
I recommend trying to hard to solo classes the second time around ( if you mostly can only solo ). Get something group friendly and get 50 . You can start Alch and get to about 500-600 skill in about 2 hours only spending 1p . Probably a lot less if you sell back what you craft . Gives you access to full blue buffs/specs and endo/health regen.

And play your class smart. I just tried Shadowblade with full weapon spec and envenom (for evernating/str defbuff) at level 20, and soloed 20-23 in about 40 mins, chain pulling yellow/OJ with only downtime in reapplying poisons. Playing with the above method, I think it can be done in a reasonable amount of time as it currently is.

Where did you solo? Frontier? DF? Dungeon?

It is what it is. If they leave xp the way it is would it hurt the server? Prolly not.

If they made xp faster by rolling back the nerfs would it hurt the server? NO.

Anyone who wants 50 bad enough will get it. Hardcore players are going to get it way faster than casuals.

Group players will get it faster than solo.

Casual solo players will get there eventually. Like a month if they are pretty dedicated.

In what part of any of those descriptions is slower xp better?

If they rolled the nerfs back-- in my opinion it would do zero harm and some good.

Did it solo in openworld SI . The Morvalt Swords/Schimitar Pelts + Eggs, think maybe 1-2 tasks of animal creatures/humanoids

Mon 26 Nov 2018 7:09 PM by relvinian

I'm continuing to test xp. Today I made a lvl 1 sight necro and leveled to 13 in 2.5 hours.

On an empty server in Mithra and frontier. I think once I get to 15 that 15-20 will go quick in DF. Will DF be available?

I also seem to be seeing blues counting for tasks, even at 13. I know they said that would be possible, did they do that to 20?

It's a welcome change.

Tue 27 Nov 2018 1:27 PM by relvinian

I'm still soloing a necro. I switched to painworking as I find it fun, sort of. I am often fighting 3-4 blues/yellows at same time. I mean 1-2 yellows, 4 yellows kills me.

I'm lvl 19 with 4 bubbles. I'm finding that eggs mean less, tasks take longer to complete, and xping itself is beginning to feel tedious. Just under 8 hours /played.

I did all the cool stuff like dungeons, df, frontier. Of course nobody is camping these camps. No pks are killing me.

The bonuses and perks seem to be less important but the two increases in base xp slow down the perks which were put in. Making this feel familiar to me, this slowish, tedious grind to solo. Some of my tasks are like-- kill 50 or 75 mobs for your "free" bubble. I turned in 1200 eggs and was not real impressed.

Tue 27 Nov 2018 2:49 PM by Kwall0311

Blues should count always. Df will be open to all three realms for the first 4 weeks.

Wed 28 Nov 2018 12:05 AM by relvinian

Switched back to sight

8 hours 35 minutes to level 20.

35 tinders dropped so clearly I was in frontier enough.

Fri 30 Nov 2018 6:03 PM by garrith

You devs are tone deaf. Honestly, 40 minutes to solo 1 level from 16-17 is shit. It's ridiculous. But wait, go do this or that and you can get it to 20 minutes (by the way, you didn't test for this nor provide data to support what that would be).

When you created i50, how many people spent 1 second xping?
There are 4 albs online right now xping from 1-49.
Guess what - NOBODY wants to xp.

It's almost 2019. Who the heck wants to spend 1 minute xping? We want to RvR.

It's like you freeshard guys don't get it. Over and Over and Over. Uthgard didn't get it. You don't get it.

Stop this insanity.

Fri 30 Nov 2018 6:12 PM by

Uthred

Instead of calling us tone deaf, you may should test xp yourself. Another good thing would be to have a look into the "XP Test" thread and to read the reports about xping there. But yeah, it is way easier to just call us names.

But again, just to enligthen you: Yes, if you want to level solo, then you will be way slower than you could easily be. It is up to you.

Fri 30 Nov 2018 6:15 PM by Aincrad

Devs have done great work and have listened to the community, as a whole, well. There has been plenty of data supported by the devs and they have done testing for it as well.

The XP as it is is great and should stay as is. 48h to 50 (which has been communicated is the goal from the beginning!!), is great

Fri 30 Nov 2018 6:20 PM by relvinian

I don't think the devs are tone deaf. There are two of them responding to two different posts about xp at the same time.

I think they do good work and lots of stuff like posting the patch notes is really nice.

That being said, If you don't chose to level solo but HAVE TO, then you really may not find the xp rate (without all the cool bonuses) prohibitive.

And to the other argument about this:

"It's almost 2019. Who the heck wants to spend 1 minute xping? We want to RvR.

It's like you freeshard guys don't get it. Over and Over and Over. Uthgard didn't get it. You don't get it."

YES! but NO!!

No instant 50. I think most don't mind xping to 50. But if doing it a certain way can be done in two days why should it take others a month? If hardcore and vet players get the advantage why increase the advantage by nerfing base xp ?

Fri 30 Nov 2018 6:21 PM by relvinian

Aincrad wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Nov 2018 6:15 PM
Devs have done great work and have listened to the community, as a whole, well. There has been plenty of data supported by the devs and they have done testing for it as well.

The XP as it is is great and should stay as is. 48h to 50 (which has been communicated is the goal from the beginning!!), is great

OK then make the base xp the default and roll back the nerfs. Then adjust the optimal group play to 48 hours. Or roll back the nerfs and lower the specific bonuses all around and REDUCE base xp by 20%

Fri 30 Nov 2018 6:50 PM by Doiri

garrith wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Nov 2018 6:03 PM
Guess what - NOBODY wants to xp.

It's almost 2019. Who the heck wants to spend 1 minute xping? We want to RvR.

Stop this insanity.

i want to xp.

bye.

Sat 1 Dec 2018 12:45 PM by Hector

The tests you are showing are results of SOLO xp. This is a social game, doesn't matter when you play, there will always be others online. Learn to hit the invite button. Stop complaining, xp rate is great with group bonuses, task completion, etc. Seriously, anybody who is solo xping is an antisocial person who should join at least a small man for the various bonuses.

Sat 1 Dec 2018 1:43 PM by Jabstar

How at this point with all the changes to cater to literally everyone, you can still complain is beyond me.
Leveling is so fast, even solo. (i've done a few chars to try it). Sure it wil be abit slower on live because of competition but thats part of the MMO-deal.
Less complaining more actual bug reporting.

Sat 1 Dec 2018 3:31 PM by relvinian

Whew. Thanks for those comments. I spent my whole life waiting for you to correct me out of thinking for myself.

I owe you big. Why didn't I just stay with flock? Go with the flow? Going with the flow worked out so well for society over the last 15 years.

By all means, just do whatever those who suppress discourse want. We don't need a beta. This isn't a testing period. Just ask the top 20 elite what they want and we can all just play that game.

Sat 1 Dec 2018 5:17 PM by Doiri

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Dec 2018 3:31 PM
Whew. Thanks for those comments. I spent my whole life waiting for you to correct me out of thinking for myself.

I owe you big. Why didn't I just stay with flock? Go with the flow? Going with the flow worked out so well for society over the last 15 years.

By all means, just do whatever those who suppress discourse want. We don't need a beta. This isn't a testing period. Just ask the top 20 elite what they want and we can all just play that game.

ehh ...

*makes a 360° turn and walks away*

Sat 1 Dec 2018 8:06 PM by

Uthred

Im going to close this thread now. I guess everything has been said.

Schaf already said some threads before, that yellow con mobs will count for solo now/soon, at least when the server goes live and we dont have any further plans to change the XP.

Our tests gave us the expected results (see XP test thread) and Im planning on some more tests. Check the other thread for upcoming infos about that.