How stupid would a warden+stealth group be?

I've toyed with the idea before, but I always saw dragging around the visible warden in a group with no CC causes or cures would be suicide. In the current RAs with as little as 5min purge and determination on the warden, it seems a little more doable.

The warden offers baseline buffs, red body resistance, 6-second PBTs, occasional twisted 1/2-stacking damage add, heals, rez, and ghetto speed. Rangers in particular can add decent self-buffs, interrupts, high damage table ranged damage, and decent melee damage, while nightshades offer burst damage, nukes, and poisons. Looks absolutely awesome versus an Alb stealth group or random commingled Mid stealthers. It's a question of how bad of a sitting duck it's gonna be against a visible group.

I'm probably gonna try to dust off a warden in Cathal and see if I can get any stealthers on board, but when I tried something similar in Caledonia, I didn't get any takers. We're just not used to grouping. I've been in stealth group before and it's annoying as hell just to get everybody moving in the same direction when we can't see each other. Group member map dots helped a lot, but it's not enough. It would be easier to follow the warden and stay visible until we're ready to engage, but it's a style of play that few seem comfortable trying.

Sun 11 Nov 2018 9:16 PM by Cadebrennus

Not only am I comfortable with running a Ranger with a Warden, my buddy Matt and I got it down to an art. The trick is to think more like a Visi than a Stealther, and be open to change tactics quickly as the situation changes. For reference;

https://youtu.be/nV-xOJ-n0A0

https://youtu.be/gYMzr5roNoU
(Skip to 1:48 and then 3:45 in this video, but watch the intro first

https://youtu.be/jTga15Be3fo

FYI videos are from live but the concept is the same.

Tue 20 Nov 2018 5:29 AM by Emeryc

Hey folks! First Phoenix post for me!

I played a Ranger for a long time on old live. We ran in small groups, usually 2-4 stealthers. We were always trying to work a visible into the group. My choice was ALWAYS a warden, precisely for the reasons you mentioned. If I ever get a chance to play, I'd be happy to give it a go with you.

Tue 20 Nov 2018 6:28 AM by Cadebrennus

Emeryc wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Nov 2018 5:29 AM
Hey folks! First Phoenix post for me!

I played a Ranger for a long time on old live. We ran in small groups, usually 2-4 stealthers. We were always trying to work a visible into the group. My choice was ALWAYS a warden, precisely for the reasons you mentioned. If I ever get a chance to play, I'd be happy to give it a go with you.

Hey Emeryc have you ever tried working Rangers into a Visi group, either 8man or smallman? It can be very effective Vs caster groups.

Tue 20 Nov 2018 3:25 PM by Emeryc

Hey Cadebrennus,

Yes, I ran in an 8 man on old Percy for a while. With focus fire on healers/casters from stealth and range, it was quite effective. We never ran consistently enough to perfect it. Not sure it could ever compete against an extend group.

I always wanted to run 3 or 4 rangers with bard/warden in keep takes/defenses and keep casters suppressed.

Tue 20 Nov 2018 3:30 PM by Seigmoraig

That sounds like a hilarious idea for a group set up, if you need some peeps for it by launch count me in !!

A wouldn't mind playing Warden but i'm not very experienced at driving a group

Tue 20 Nov 2018 5:35 PM by Cadebrennus

Emeryc wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Nov 2018 3:25 PM
Hey Cadebrennus,

Yes, I ran in an 8 man on old Percy for a while. With focus fire on healers/casters from stealth and range, it was quite effective. We never ran consistently enough to perfect it. Not sure it could ever compete against an extend group.

I always wanted to run 3 or 4 rangers with bard/warden in keep takes/defenses and keep casters suppressed.

A single good Archer can keep 3-4 casters interrupted. IMO if you were going for a serious interrupt group you would need 2 Rangers max and have the rest be a conventional setup. Only issues would be Nearsight and enemy tank groups. Best way to counter tank groups is to focus on peels using melee styles and by being a good /assister, but it's still not as effective as it is vs a Caster group. Because an Archer interrupter has to target hop so frequently it's a bad idea to be MA (main assist). Best to /assist your tank MA or your caster MA.

Tue 20 Nov 2018 5:36 PM by Cadebrennus

What are your in-game names? I'm on Cadebrennus of course.

Tue 20 Nov 2018 11:03 PM by Emeryc

So annoying... now I can't stop thinking about it! If you were going to be really devoted to the group dynamic, what kind of spec would be optimal? As anathema as this is to my idea of a Ranger, would you just forgo Pathfinding? Maybe: 45 recurve (Rapid Fire II) , 39 blades (Spectrum blade), CD 39 (Hurricane and Snow Shower, of course), 30 Stealth. Seems to me that PF would be redundant if your group had buffs.

OR... 45 bow, 34 blades (or pierce), 24 CD, 30 stealth and 36 PF for Speed Shout and Damage Add.

Thinal, I didn't mean to hijack the thread!

Wed 21 Nov 2018 2:47 AM by Cadebrennus

Emeryc wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Nov 2018 11:03 PM
So annoying... now I can't stop thinking about it! If you were going to be really devoted to the group dynamic, what kind of spec would be optimal? As anathema as this is to my idea of a Ranger, would you just forgo Pathfinding? Maybe: 45 recurve (Rapid Fire II) , 39 blades (Spectrum blade), CD 39 (Hurricane and Snow Shower, of course), 30 Stealth. Seems to me that PF would be redundant if your group had buffs.

OR... 45 bow, 34 blades (or pierce), 24 CD, 30 stealth and 36 PF for Speed Shout and Damage Add.

Thinal, I didn't mean to hijack the thread!

You can check out "The Drunken Ranger's Guide to Drunken Rangery" for some spec breakdowns

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2902

The spec I'm running in a Visi group is 10 Stealth, 50 Blades, 29 CD, 36 PF, 35 Archery. It's a good spec if you want to be a BM-lite with ranged interrupt and DPS capabilities. For the guys who are more Archery focused I would recommend 10 Stealth 39 Blades, 29 CD, 36 PF, 45 Archery. I wouldn't go lower than 39 Blades as it has an excellent ASR (attack speed reducer) at 39. Always stop Archery at 45 because there's no tangible benefit above 45.

Wed 21 Nov 2018 3:42 AM by Cadebrennus

I forgot to mention, here's a video from live showing exactly how the interrupter should be played. Note: lighting bolts are procs from my bow.

https://youtu.be/TGsUopwl-lY

Wed 21 Nov 2018 3:11 PM by Thinal

Emeryc wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Nov 2018 11:03 PM
So annoying... now I can't stop thinking about it! If you were going to be really devoted to the group dynamic, what kind of spec would be optimal? As anathema as this is to my idea of a Ranger, would you just forgo Pathfinding?

To me, the beauty of Pathfinding + Warden Nurture is that they're largely complementary. With just str/con charge items, each ranger can be "fully buffed" with more or less marginal differences from full base/spec group conc buffs, depending on actual PF spec. The damage add chant is supposed to stack at 1/2 effectiveness with the Pathfinding damage add. (I haven't tested this on Phoenix.) Endo would be pots, unfortunately, but still doable with the common tireless + LW RAs. The warden wouldn't even need these RAs, presuming he's more for healing than melee, as the second fatigue reduction buff rounds up so that one can permasprint with just pot endo. (Confirmed on Phoenix, at least for now...)

I had been more concerned with CC, but someone brought up facing tank groups, and that's a good question. It's okay to have some adversaries be scarier than others, but I'd hope to not insta-die every time a specific group type comes in clipping range. Against CC I had quicker purge and spreading out for ranged attacks at least; against tanks, especially shield tanks, we're fighting against better damage tables and defense, plus the whenever-the-hell-I-feel-like-it slams. Weapon spec's reduction of miss chance has made slam trivial to land, even though the style lacks +attack.

Wed 21 Nov 2018 6:41 PM by Emeryc

Sheesh! Played a bit last night... bow damage seems pitifully low, unless I'm missing something. Landing crits on chain wearers for 400! Was not fun!

Thu 22 Nov 2018 2:39 AM by Cadebrennus

Emeryc wrote: ↑
Wed 21 Nov 2018 6:41 PM
Sheesh! Played a bit last night... bow damage seems pitifully low, unless I'm missing something. Landing crits on chain wearers for 400! Was not fun!

Were you using thrust arrows?

Thu 22 Nov 2018 4:55 PM by Emeryc

Yes, of course. Is damage on those free arrows different?

Thu 22 Nov 2018 6:37 PM by Cadebrennus

Emeryc wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Nov 2018 4:55 PM
Yes, of course. Is damage on those free arrows different?

No it should be the same. If you suspect a difference then you can buy arrows and test them side by side with the free arrows

Sun 25 Nov 2018 6:51 AM by Emeryc

So, after playing a bit, I've respecced to 45 bow, 35 stealth, 44 Pierce, 24 CD and 7PF. PF is useless in this age of pots/charges.

It occurred to me, however... wouldn't a Hunter be better suited for the interrupter role? The pet plus a nice rear stun to peel... just a thought.

Sun 25 Nov 2018 7:46 AM by Cadebrennus

Emeryc wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Nov 2018 6:51 AM
So, after playing a bit, I've respecced to 45 bow, 35 stealth, 44 Pierce, 24 CD and 7PF. PF is useless in this age of pots/charges.

It occurred to me, however... wouldn't a Hunter be better suited for the interrupter role? The pet plus a nice rear stun to peel... just a thought.

All the chicken littles in the game will tell you how worthless Hunters are at everything. However I've done some testing recently and let's just say that they're not. Honestly all three Archers have a role in a group with visible characters. They do differ from each other in their roles due to their unique abilities. I completely disagree with your assertion that PF is worthless. For a detailed breakdown why I refer you to the Ranger Guide:

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=17745#p17745

However if that spec is working for you then continue using it. I would like to get more input from you when you log some more playtime with that spec. Feel free to leave a comment on the Guide thread once you feel that you've really got the hang of the spec.

Thu 29 Nov 2018 6:11 AM by Emeryc

I think you're probably right and I've respecced back to 36PF, On old live, the AF buff was broken, but it seems to work here. I actually use the Str, AF and DA buffs at 36 PF. I'm tempted to try 40 for the Dex/Quick but I'll stay at 36 for now. 45bow, 34Pierce, 29CD, 30 Stlth. Melee is still rough, but bow shots are decent. FAR more effective in duo/trio set up.

I am concerned with range on instas. Am I the only one?

Ready to run a Warden + Stealth with whomever would like to join! Look for Brielle the Ranger!

Mon 10 Dec 2018 6:09 PM by Thinal

Pathfinding is not worthless. I ran some tests last night on test dummies with this setup, brand new i50/rr5L9:
Shar, +15 STR +10 END (dex would be fine, but NOT quickness)
35 Steath
39 Blades
12 bow (autotrain)
PF / CD: tested at PF 50, 46, 40, 36, 30, 27, 21(23) with balance in CD
2.5 mainhand, 3.1 offhand (which is why no quickness... REALLY easy to go over speed cap)
i50 potions (not charges; was trying to simulate a pretty easy setup for release. STR/CON would likely change scaling, but not order of the test results. DEX/QUI might change order, but less of a priority with blades and near-cap weapon speed.)
Used the taunt style of either blades or CD, whichever was higher for that test.

I can post full numbers for anyone interested, but DPS was about 10% higher for full PF than for full CD, and scaled fairly smoothly between them.

For RAs, I got standard LW/tireless, then purge 2, ignore pain 4, leaving 15 points. As Pathfinding had worked out so well, I tried master of arcane 6, and it would do slightly better than STR except that it was raising quickness enough to go over speed cap. I don't have conclusive results of STR versus mastery of pain, as I haven't mapped out exactly how much a crit adds to the blow. Rough estimates seem to slightly favor MoP, but I want to confirm this. (It would be nice if it did, so better potential DPS versus more consistent DPS would be the choice between the two.)

Speed cap could be less of a concern with a 2.9 mainhand, but I'd want to do a new series of tests in that case. I would expect the scaling to be tighter but the order to remain the same, but I'd want to confirm that.

As for this thread's topic, a good part of the extra damage was in increased strength. With 50 PF, the strength self-buff would be better than the warden's conc buff, but the warden conc will be higher at lower PF. If you *knew* you were running regularly in a warden/bard smallman or in an 8-man, then pathfinding would probably be a poor investment. I would consider it likely though that you'll be self-buffs, pots, and charges almost always after release.

And of course, I don't attest to these results for other races, piercing, or a build with any effectiveness in archery. It would be worth testing a 'keen piercer with slightly slower weapons. I do find blades to be superior for a ranger, though, especially now that it has an off-evade stun for rogues. I tested a blades Shar because that's the setup I'm most likely to play, and I might not get around to other tests before i50 ends.

Thu 10 Jan 2019 5:22 AM by ragni

I'd listen to Emery..hes a legend.