How to solve the Emain problem

Make all kills in Emain worth 0 (zero) Realm Points. That should shift the action elsewhere.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 1:29 AM by Thinal

I doubt it. Perhaps in release this would work, but not i50.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 3:08 AM by gallaraider

Why does it matter where the action is? Its gonna be the same regardless of what zone it is

Sun 28 Oct 2018 3:44 AM by defiasbandit

Why do players here choose to 20v1? You see it all the time during i50. A zerg will run by and run across the map just to kill a single player.

Like what is the mentality here? Can anyone enlighten me.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 6:48 AM by Cadebrennus

I should have been more specific. Make all players worth zero realm points in Emain during beta. Right now the developers want people to test keep taking, relic raids, etc., not this constant camping of milegates in Emain.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 9:05 AM by Kaziera

For coordination you need a coordinator. And a purpose. At the moment we dont have both.

My suggestion: give ppls that participate in the relic testing a special title. Or a special armor skin. That goes over after the Launch. Noting gamebreaking but something to show for.

When the leaders find a purpose, things will happen.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 10:07 AM by vitu

As soon as people are caring about rps again (so end of i50, launch of the server) the action will shift with the tasks.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 2:31 PM by Ganaka

IMHO, the Emain problem is due to bad world building. The different realms are not physically connected. If Emain, Hadrians, and Odins were connected, by running, then there wouldn't need to be portal keeps to an opposing realm. Everyone would have to run to the 'intersection' of the different Realms to get to the opposing realm.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 5:10 PM by Thinal

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Oct 2018 6:48 AM
I should have been more specific. Make all players worth zero realm points in Emain during beta. Right now the developers want people to test keep taking, relic raids, etc., not this constant camping of milegates in Emain.

Seems that they're grownups and could post that themselves.

Of course, they can finally mention that patch notes have moved, only to have the new location STILL NOT UP TO DATE by at least two patches, so maybe they can't speak for themselves. I'm getting annoyed with important information not managing to be consolidated anywhere.

In any case, it would be nice to have the action somewhere a little fairer to all three realms. I can roll mid or alb and get back into action in seconds, or roll hib an take 10-20 minutes to get back into action. Whether that's moved to "normal" frontier action or Cathal Valley as someone suggested in another thread, I'm cool, but Emain is just too tilted as a location, and the other PK zones in the other realms would be just as bad, but to other realms.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 5:19 PM by Thinal

Ganaka wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Oct 2018 2:31 PM
IMHO, the Emain problem is due to bad world building. The different realms are not physically connected.

I think this is ultimately a zoning issue. The realms are in separate zones, and doing this would require sharing resources that right now can be siloed to different servers.

It's still bad design, but I think the proper design would have been to have frontiers as a separate zone, and all realms portal in to a single PK apiece, OR (my preference) allow people to portal to any keep in the (single) frontier that's owned by their realm, as well as a permanent PK apiece.

I've said before that frontiers are too big and I prefer BGs, but this is a separate issue. The combined frontier could be as big or small as was deemed suitable, and have as many or as few keeps as deemed necessary. This is just about where it is.

Also bear in mind that I never played live extensively and not since a similar timeframe as 1.65, so I don't know if this is exactly or not at all what they did in later iterations of the game.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 8:17 PM by relvinian

There needs to be a faster way to get to emain, hadrien's wall, and odins gate.

As a lazy solo I would look at tasks and if it was portable I would go, if not I would pve or log out.

If tasks are worth less, like now, I would ignore them and just run to amg in emain.

If I was a hib I would make an alb or mid.

Kind of what serverpop looked like earlier with 150 albs 130 mids and like 75 hibs

Mon 29 Oct 2018 2:35 AM by relvinian

80 albs 67 mids 38 hibs

Mon 29 Oct 2018 3:02 AM by defiasbandit

Keep War
[/b]
Holding an enemy keep awards a realmwide 10% RP bonus.

A realm must own all of their frontier keeps to receive the bonus for holding enemy keeps. This makes border keeps highly contested. (Odin's, Hadrian's, Emain)

Keep Commanders drop chests that include Claws, bounty points, feathers, and tinderboxes. These chests are the ones the Caravans carry to the keeps.

Players killed at or near keeps are worth 20% more RP.

Capturing a keep gives RP to participants. Scale the instant RP bonus based on the number of attackers/defenders in the keep or zone.

Earn Keep Points for holding enemy keeps.

Once one realm amasses a certain total amount of Keep points they are the Keep War winner.

Think of it like a keep vault that is filled as you hold enemy keeps

There could be an underdog bonus for capturing and holding keeps if one realm is super far behind in terms of total keep points.

Winning the Keep War grants the winning realm unique cosmetics, dyes , a special realmwide event, an rp bonus, and a commemoration statue in their Capital City.

1 week break after a realm is declared the victor.

The incentives have to be high. DAOC is about Realm v Realm and keep taking should be at the forefront.

Realmwide Announcements for keeps under attack and captured. This way players know where to find the action.

I think it is important that there is a winning realm in the Keep War. It can create realm pride and unite players on a realm to fight for everyone.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:43 AM by relvinian

Albion: 28 Midgard: 18 Hibernia: 3

Math skills weak. Is that 9 times more albs than hibs? 6 times more mids than hibs?

This is fine. Nothing to see here.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:47 AM by defiasbandit

Revilian.

Dark Age of Camelot is about fighting over Keeps and Relics. That is why you have large group sizes in this game, so you can take part in massive battles.

If you do not incentivize taking keeps then players will not do them. They will take a path of less resistance, like roaming Emain as an 8man and farming other players for RP.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 11:56 AM by Ombrix

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:47 AM
Revilian.

Dark Age of Camelot is about fighting over Keeps and Relics. That is why you have large group sizes in this game, so you can take part in massive battles.

If you do not incentivize taking keeps then players will not do them. They will take a path of less resistance, like roaming Emain as an 8man and farming other players for RP.

Defias at the start it’s was true. But not anymore since long years ago. 8mans don’t take keeps or whatever, they just farm less numbers 24/7. Who go fight in keep ? 3fgs guild etc. So here, reduced the group size will don’t change anything.

And what about ask in Region Chat like , let’s take DC , and lot of 4mans coming to take part of the war. 8mans is really not necessary. It’s necessary for the player who just stick and spreadheal with a firecamp.( and kill less numbers sure )

Mon 29 Oct 2018 12:05 PM by Thinal

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:47 AM
If you do not incentivize taking keeps then players will not do them. They will take a path of less resistance, like roaming Emain as an 8man and farming other players for RP.

Did you ever consider that maybe, just maybe, RPs aren't the goal, that we just want to facemelt other people, and RPs are just a mean to that end?

Action moves when the target moves. It's a catch-22, but people will move when people move. People will only take keeps over killing players if they're physically prevented from reaching the other players until they take the keep. The keep is a means to an end.

I'm getting sick of reading about "this is what the devs want" on the boards and in-game channels. First, the devs are people and can post what they want their own damn selves and don't need prophets. Second, what the devs want and what they get are not the same. Perhaps they have psychologists and economists in their midst, but most likely they understand code much better than they understand human behavior.

Don't blame individual molecules of gas that escape a pressurized container that's been punctured. I see plenty of people whine and lament about human nature, but using it as a cudgel to bash people instead of looking at underlying incentive structures. If the devs actually want behavior to change (and maybe they don't, because they can tell us their own damn selves if they do), then they're going to need to go a lot deeper than reward structures and start looking at barriers. I'd far rather facemelt someone than get even 500k rps for doing something else.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 1:07 PM by Sei

Who said emain was a problem ?

For sure since i50 ppl stop doing tasks, and the most obvious observation to this is that it is likely caused by the lack of incentive in doing it, cause ppl now dont especially want to RP farm, and because of the lack of adhesion to this system , probably cause not fun?

Ppl used to do tasks for RP farm purpose, i would yet to to see any single argument not in favor if this (based on Real observations)

Mon 29 Oct 2018 1:23 PM by relvinian

Tasks are worth less rps now than they used to be.

Just saying.

BTW, im not anti dev, im sure they will find a way to make this work.

Oh and

Albion: 41 Midgard: 39 Hibernia: 23

Sun 4 Nov 2018 12:23 AM by Sepplord

the "emain-problem" is imo only a problem because it causes the huge population imbalances as few people want to play hib so bad that they put up with the long runs

it exists mainly though because the other zones are too unfriendly to roam in...be it the amount of aggressive mobs that permanently add you, or the bad visibility, which makes a zone feel much more empty even if the same amount of players are in

imo, IF they want to "fix" something there, they need to remove most aggro mobs (make them neutral) from the other frontiers (and/or add more annoying aggro mobs to emain, but i dont think that would be a good idea).
Make it as easy to roam Odin's gate and Hadrian's Wall as it is to roam Emain.

Running from APK to AMG in Emain is almost a straight line with just a small camp of Aggro's that can be avoided on both sides without noticeable effect on traveltime.
Running from APK to AMG in Odin's is a shithole of badly visible spirits adding you, or a huge detour

And between the milegates the situation is similar. You have to actively try to get random adds in Emain, in Odin's you get them all the time unless you know exactly where to pass

Sun 4 Nov 2018 1:11 AM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 12:23 AM
the "emain-problem" is imo only a problem because it causes the huge population imbalances as few people want to play hib so bad that they put up with the long runs

it exists mainly though because the other zones are too unfriendly to roam in...be it the amount of aggressive mobs that permanently add you, or the bad visibility, which makes a zone feel much more empty even if the same amount of players are in

imo, IF they want to "fix" something there, they need to remove most aggro mobs (make them neutral) from the other frontiers (and/or add more annoying aggro mobs to emain, but i dont think that would be a good idea).
Make it as easy to roam Odin's gate and Hadrian's Wall as it is to roam Emain.

Running from APK to AMG in Emain is almost a straight line with just a small camp of Aggro's that can be avoided on both sides without noticeable effect on traveltime.
Running from APK to AMG in Odin's is a shithole of badly visible spirits adding you, or a huge detour

And between the milegates the situation is similar. You have to actively try to get random adds in Emain, in Odin's you get them all the time unless you know exactly where to pass

Then the Phoenix devs should add some real nasty aggro mobs in Emain. Problem solved!

Sun 4 Nov 2018 2:20 PM by Sepplord

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 1:11 AM
Then the Phoenix devs should add some real nasty aggro mobs in Emain. Problem solved!

I really feel like there are two people posting under your account....some of your remarks are very reasonable and thought through...

...and then you post something like this, proposing to make all zones shit instead of making all zones enjoyable...
(and it wasn't even a new idea, i already adressed that, so a oneliner repeating doesn't help at all)

Sun 4 Nov 2018 5:26 PM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 2:20 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 1:11 AM
Then the Phoenix devs should add some real nasty aggro mobs in Emain. Problem solved!

I really feel like there are two people posting under your account....some of your remarks are very reasonable and thought through...

...and then you post something like this, proposing to make all zones shit instead of making all zones enjoyable...
(and it wasn't even a new idea, i already adressed that, so a oneliner repeating doesn't help at all)

Uh oh they're on to us!

You're right, sometimes I put more thought into some posts than others, and sometimes I post with a bit of snark. In all seriousness though, the Devs should take a hard look at what funnels people into Emain and balance it versus the other frontiers. If it is aggro mobs then they should make sure the aggro is balanced well against other realms. If Emain is too easy to navigate (say for example, in comparison with the Pennine Mountains zone) then Emain should have MORE aggro mobs than Pennine in order to balance it out.

I personally like the unpredictability of certain zones and the variability of terrain (again, going to use Pennine here) because players can use terrain or be hindered by it for a more variable experience, rather than run across the same green lawn over and over for the same experience every time (Emain, I'm looking at you.)

Tue 6 Nov 2018 1:00 PM by PrinzValium

I think it is because its has always been emain where the fighting is and the high populated realms are back in action in a sec. Who cares about the hibs. There are enough albs and mid out there to fight with.
The only "fair" way to solve the problem is a kind of nf (where all three realms are connected) with the ability to port to an owned castle (with or without guardtowers).

Thu 8 Nov 2018 12:53 AM by Armsmancer

Since they cannot change the landscape the LoS problem remains a huge pain in the butt many will simply not deal with. Even on my hibs going to amg takes longer but I don't have to worry about dumb aggro, and even if all mobs were removed the Los is still annoying in mid/alb. We cannot make pennine not be pennine without going NF.

Removing the faster and more painless way of getting to action does not translate to those same people now will all go to odins/hadrians, if the above bothers them enough they will find something better to do, do not assume raising taxes 10% = 10% more $$ next year, some people won't contribute the exact same amount, and for the same reason, removing the easy access to faster pvp encounters does not funnel the same amount of players to different, more annoying lands.

Besides, some of us, especially casuals, like that in their list of options for the evening they can always go to a spot and have a high likelihood of some type of action. Tasking realm quests with a good enough incentive is the best thing so far said or implemented that shows it will get people out to odin's, but that's just because of the incentive.

Besides, it really isn't a "problem" people go to emain to begin with. Other games have hotspots that are popular for the exact same reasons emain is. There's no victim here.

Thu 8 Nov 2018 1:04 PM by Sepplord

Almost fully agree, but with this last part

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 12:53 AM
Besides, it really isn't a "problem" people go to emain to begin with. Other games have hotspots that are popular for the exact same reasons emain is. There's no victim here.

There is a victim, and it is hibernia

Thu 8 Nov 2018 4:31 PM by Waygone

If they 10X the amount of rvr task rps, I think more would actually do the tasks. Not going to lug my ass out to Hardians repeatedly for hours for a few hunderd rps.

You get a few consistently going out there for MEANINGFUL rp gain and you will see an avalanche of action in those directions

Thu 8 Nov 2018 6:31 PM by Armsmancer

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 1:04 PM
Almost fully agree, but with this last part

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 12:53 AM
Besides, it really isn't a "problem" people go to emain to begin with. Other games have hotspots that are popular for the exact same reasons emain is. There's no victim here.

There is a victim, and it is hibernia

What is the worst thing this victim is suffering from exactly, longer run time to action in their home realm with usually friendly keeps all around them on flat terrain with few mobs or trees? Oh boy hold the presses everyone someone call Oprah or Dr. Phil, show us on the realm map where the Norseman touched you.

Thu 8 Nov 2018 6:59 PM by defiasbandit

Emain only is bad for long term population health. If its just going to be about emain you might as well just add cathal valley.

RvR should be about fighting over keeps throughout all frontiers, not ganging up on lesser numbers in emain macha. I50 is a potential preview of how this server could end up if other zones and keeps are not incentivized more.
[list=][/list]

Thu 8 Nov 2018 8:51 PM by Exploder

It's too early to say if there is truly an "Emain problem". I50 isn't an indication of what players are going to do on live. Hopefully tasks will split up RvR into the other zones, but we won't know for sure until a month or so after release. I'd imagine it will because the rewards are much more significant at lower RR's.

It's sad that most players associate NF with ToA. It really improved upon a lot of the issues that plagued OF. This being one of them.

Thu 8 Nov 2018 9:41 PM by Sepplord

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 6:31 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 1:04 PM
Almost fully agree, but with this last part

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 12:53 AM
Besides, it really isn't a "problem" people go to emain to begin with. Other games have hotspots that are popular for the exact same reasons emain is. There's no victim here.

There is a victim, and it is hibernia

What is the worst thing this victim is suffering from exactly, longer run time to action in their home realm with usually friendly keeps all around them on flat terrain with few mobs or trees? Oh boy hold the presses everyone someone call Oprah or Dr. Phil, show us on the realm map where the Norseman touched you.

What a wonderful addition to the discussion, full of reasonable arguments. Guess that's your kind of reaction when you have no other arguments to support your claim.
You can try to downtalk the problem all you want, the population numbers aren't lying.

What really flabberghasts me is how you go from a reasonable comment, that i even acknowledged and agreed with, to such a derogatory and disrespecting comment just because i disagre with a single thing and mention hibernia being a victim of the emain-only-action.

Mon 12 Nov 2018 10:50 PM by Armsmancer

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 9:41 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 6:31 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 1:04 PM
Almost fully agree, but with this last part

There is a victim, and it is hibernia

What is the worst thing this victim is suffering from exactly, longer run time to action in their home realm with usually friendly keeps all around them on flat terrain with few mobs or trees? Oh boy hold the presses everyone someone call Oprah or Dr. Phil, show us on the realm map where the Norseman touched you.

What a wonderful addition to the discussion, full of reasonable arguments. Guess that's your kind of reaction when you have no other arguments to support your claim.
You can try to downtalk the problem all you want, the population numbers aren't lying.

What really flabberghasts me is how you go from a reasonable comment, that i even acknowledged and agreed with, to such a derogatory and disrespecting comment just because i disagre with a single thing and mention hibernia being a victim of the emain-only-action.

Translation : I don't want to answer how they are actual victims and would rather tone police you instead of backing up my argument.

You'll fit in nicely here, lots of like minded folks on these forums that respond this way to a direct question they refuse to answer and instead QQ about the way it was asked instead of actually answering the question. They don't bring this up and then go on and answer the question, they make several posts quoting the question I asked and refuse to address it. You'd make me look like an idiot if you laid out a strong case for the apparent victim here. Yet here we all stand patiently waiting a few days now for someone to tell us about the trials and tribulations that these poor victims suffer and all we get is this wailing and bellyaching about tone.

At best you said population numbers aren't lying. That isn't an argument to then go "therefore" or do anything with that. Population numbers on an i50 server that is deleting soon doesn't give you any info you can glean from to make any valid prediction with because your source like most other people's here : your buttocks.

I mean, what exactly can you or anyone confidently say about the i50 beta population = exactly what at launch or 3 months after, how about 8, or 2 years later? You've no idea better than anyone else out there. How many people played Hib at i50 but will play a different realm at launch? Are you saying its 0? How about 10-20? 50?

This is why I'm sarcastic so much because you have no way to back up your statement and the sarcasm exposes the fault, and instead of being a grown up and at least walking back your statement or adjust accordingly you're handing us all nothing of actual substance we can put our fingers on, just more gut feelings here on the forums, more doomsday predictions if the staff doesn't heed thy bidding and the other Harbingers of the Truth™ .

Please consider putting more points into your debate stat this one I consider gray killing.

Tue 13 Nov 2018 12:41 AM by Sepplord

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 10:50 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 9:41 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 6:31 PM
What is the worst thing this victim is suffering from exactly, longer run time to action in their home realm with usually friendly keeps all around them on flat terrain with few mobs or trees? Oh boy hold the presses everyone someone call Oprah or Dr. Phil, show us on the realm map where the Norseman touched you.

What a wonderful addition to the discussion, full of reasonable arguments. Guess that's your kind of reaction when you have no other arguments to support your claim.
You can try to downtalk the problem all you want, the population numbers aren't lying.

What really flabberghasts me is how you go from a reasonable comment, that i even acknowledged and agreed with, to such a derogatory and disrespecting comment just because i disagre with a single thing and mention hibernia being a victim of the emain-only-action.

Translation : I don't want to answer how they are actual victims and would rather tone police you instead of backing up my argument.

You'll fit in nicely here, lots of like minded folks on these forums that respond this way to a direct question they refuse to answer and instead QQ about the way it was asked instead of actually answering the question. They don't bring this up and then go on and answer the question, they make several posts quoting the question I asked and refuse to address it. You'd make me look like an idiot if you laid out a strong case for the apparent victim here. Yet here we all stand patiently waiting a few days now for someone to tell us about the trials and tribulations that these poor victims suffer and all we get is this wailing and bellyaching about tone.

At best you said population numbers aren't lying. That isn't an argument to then go "therefore" or do anything with that. Population numbers on an i50 server that is deleting soon doesn't give you any info you can glean from to make any valid prediction with because your source like most other people's here : your buttocks.

I mean, what exactly can you or anyone confidently say about the i50 beta population = exactly what at launch or 3 months after, how about 8, or 2 years later? You've no idea better than anyone else out there. How many people played Hib at i50 but will play a different realm at launch? Are you saying its 0? How about 10-20? 50?

This is why I'm sarcastic so much because you have no way to back up your statement and the sarcasm exposes the fault, and instead of being a grown up and at least walking back your statement or adjust accordingly you're handing us all nothing of actual substance we can put our fingers on, just more gut feelings here on the forums, more doomsday predictions if the staff doesn't heed thy bidding and the other Harbingers of the Truth™ .

Please consider putting more points into your debate stat this one I consider gray killing.

Oh boy hold the presses everyone someone call Oprah or Dr. Phil, show us on the realm map where the Norseman touched you.

Do you really believe thatexposes flaws? And warrants a decent answer?
...but yeah, we can play the game of who startet it or come back to the discussion

i had already made my argument, and you just dismissed it, without an argument yourself.
i took that as rethorical question, since you ranted about my answer directly after asking it.

Yes, Hibs are the victims of having a much longer traveltime to the action most of the time, because most of the time the action is emain (or are you trying to dismiss that also?)
You can say "it's not that bad" and that might be true if you are one of the premade 8man groups that goes for hours without dieing.
For everyone who has an average success rate (or even below) it is half time running, half time being there. And that is generous.

An average noobgrp from albion will have twice or even threetimes as much action and fights than the same group from hibernia.

It doesn't matter if they are running through areas with friendly keeps or not. They are still wasting much more time to get into an action point.

And yes, imo you can take clues from an instant50 serverphase. Ofcourse that doesn't mean that there will be no hibs, but i am quite sure that hibernia will be the underpopulated realm. The only thing changing that might be several premadegroups also thinking that and going there so they have more to fight.

Tue 13 Nov 2018 12:47 AM by defiasbandit

The solution is simple. You incentivize the frontiers so there is lots of action outside of Emain Macha. Adding a portal to DC is not happening nor should it.

Tue 13 Nov 2018 1:28 AM by Sepplord

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Nov 2018 12:47 AM
The solution is simple. You incentivize the frontiers so there is lots of action outside of Emain Macha. Adding a portal to DC is not happening nor should it.

Oh definitely, a portal to a keep is out of the question from my POV too...

we will have to see how the realmtasks work out, but even if they pull action away from emain, there will always be someone to kill in emain
there probably even was action in emain while cathal valley was open

i am unsure how to "fix" it, if it is even fixable within reason (aka without actively punishing people fighting there)

for me it's one of those things thats always been like that and without a huge map makeover will always stay like that. It doesn't ruin the game, it just keeps a few people from maining Hib