Thought from a pessimist - Phoenix Freeshard

I might be a pessimist, well I am a pessimist lets not deny facts

The following is from my point of view, and is highly biased...

The last weeks saw a lot of debate regarding stealther limit, and strong opposition to limiting in any way what people want to play. This limit was strongly opposed despite that this is BETA and Albion had a 50%+ stealth population at time. Even when i50 launched and we had 400+ pop in Frontier, the limit was still affecting people, which means 25%+ were playing stealthers.
I don't see stealthers as a problem, I see MANY stealthers as a problem. My view on stealthers are they are a kind of dimension-travelers, in that they can exist in a dimension where only other dimension travelers can interact with them, only when they enter "normal" dimension can normal characters (visible characters) interact with them.
And this is not a problem if they are; weak compared to visible characters unless they open with their from stealth move and/or there are few of them.
But assassins are in no way weak without PA, and stealthers are in no way few. Aagain, the first is my view, but the second is facts, that does not necesarily make them a problem because that is my definition of a problem.

So back to 25%+ stealthers, which I think are a problem because they are both strong and many, AND near invulnarable to interaction from visibles.
Despite this, people still complain about a 25% cap in BETA.
And that leads me to the end... that if people gets this worked up over staff limiting them in BETA, they will go bonkers in Live.
I see it as logic, that 25%+ stealthers is an issue and for me it's frustrating to have conversations with stealthers who group and gank soloers, and listen to their reason for being stealther that: "fg's ganked my solo visible". It just baffles me people can't see they are pissing their pants.
Any nerf, limit or buff to visibles, will be seen as an attack on stealthers way of wanting to play the game, and will result in massive outcry. And I don't think the staff wants this, because they're really trying to make a server with happy people and the vocal majority gets the vote.

Stealthers wont be hard to level here, or equip. Xp-items and general high xp bonuses makes sure of that, and feather system means you need 1 raid and then feather farm 1-2 days to have Top Tier items.

So... I personally think a stealthers will be numerous, and from what I've seen they will group up and grief solo/smallman, in the same way fg's do, only they will do so with the comfort of picking fights. And of course the xp ganking, where you will be xp'ing and eat a perf to the face, which for old timers is norm, but is a major turn-off for casuals.

So, yeah pessimist, but I personally lost interest in the project because I can't see Live being nothing but 8mans and stealth groups, with the occasional zerg fest.
QQ, sure, whine and cheese, sure, but I don't think I am the only one.
And there are sensible stealthers, with sensible arguments, but to me the majority are hypocrits who just wants ease-mode DaoC.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 8:46 AM by Druth

I should also add, that stealthers makes the world seem less populated.

Minor example, 2 people in Emain...:
1) Both are visible, they will see each other from well... visual range and can engage or run.
2) One stealther, one visible. The stealther will see the visible from far, but the visible can either assume it's empty and go somewhere else, or wait around and basically act as bait which will likely mean stealthers opens with high advantage. But only the stealther here can chose to engage.
3) Both stealthers, highly likely they wont see each other at all, and ends up with no engagement.

So when people stealth, they remove possibility of engagements happening, which means people will log off because they assume RvR is dead.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 8:50 AM by Hedien

Would have been nice to include some solutions ideas.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 8:57 AM by Druth

Hedien wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 8:50 AM
Would have been nice to include some solutions ideas.

I would still be onboard if there were solutions, but you can't have solutions without a constructive debate.
My point is that when people react that strongly to a change in BETA, because it affects how people wants to play, Live will be even worse if they touch stealthers.
I even managed to have a heated debate with a stealther who felt hastener tokens would nerf them, because people could get through an area faster and thus they would not be able to stop targets and kill them.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 9:10 AM by Druth

I will go as far as compare stealther issue for Phoenix, to Buff-bot issue for Mythic.
Both are popular and makes people play the game, which amounts to population, but both also drives people away from the game.

But how do you either balance it so people who likes them will continue playing, but also so you don't scare people away?
Do you drive away more people by removing it, or by keeping it? (I like stealth mechanic, just making extreme comparissons)

So you can say, the stronger stealthers are, the more people who likes stealthers will play here, but on the other hand it will also drive people away who does not like them. But the sum is very hard to calculate.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 9:51 AM by vitu

The chat and the forum have been unbearable the last days, people are crying in an unbelievable childish way.

Just look at the caravan thread: the stealth potion is so hard to get, you need to kill 10 caravans, they just drop 1! Claw for the whole group and you need 10 to get 1 potion with 5 charges with a duration of 1 minute.

In the thread people cry as if the stealth spec has been removed from the game. No one is investing this much time in farming stuff for this potion.

This community consists of adult people throwing a tantrum like a toddler every time something is changed to try to create a good playing experience for everyone.

Best thing is just to ignore this massive crying, accept that there are some unbelievable stupid people playing with you.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 11:48 AM by Thinal

Interesting combination of crying and smugness on this thread while people are marching away from this game. I hope a good number are just sitting out beta and waiting for release and haven't lost interest in the game entirely, but time will tell.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 12:15 PM by florin

As a long time stealther I’ll agree. The problem is accentuated on i50. Combining stealth, gear and non critical attack specs creates some beasts. I’ve seen solo shadowblades (they don’t solo often) take out friars without using PA. Paladins too. Fully buffed and temped they are attractive to play similar to skalds. There will be fewer on live but even then 4 stealthers vs 1 solo will happen. They have to kill someone right? We complain if they hit solos. We complain if they hit small man. We complain if they add to fg fights.

I think stealth lore is an interesting counter but I think it would be cool to have a stealth hunter enabled class - the hybrids.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 4:38 PM by Cadebrennus

This big divide between stealther and visible classes doesn't start in the frontier. It starts in the PvE zones.

The reason that stealthers don't know how to function in a visible group is that they don't have any practice doing so.

The reason that visible class players don't know how to properly utilize stealthers in their groups is because they've never had the experience of mixing the two.

I was a stealther player after I shelved my Merc due to radar on live. I left when TOA came out. I re-subbed and played my Ranger again when I returned from deployment (end of 2012), but I was more interested in running with a visible group again. I specced my Ranger to be more useful to a group and developed RvR tactics that better complemented the group. That meant playing differently than I had "as a stealther" and to think about the group's goals in RvR, rather than just my own goals. I did this for 4 years, and definitely got the playstyle down for live, as a stealth class working in a visible group. It took practice first in PvE, and then practice in RvR. It will take practice here on Phoenix as it is a different dynamic without TOA abilities and items as well as sans Champion levels. It can be done however. The other day I ran with a visi group from the guild and we ran into a Mid Caster group that outnumbered us by 1 or 2. After the fight a couple people asked in discord, "how did we survive that? How did we win?" I just responded with "you're welcome!" because I kept the casters interrupted most of the fight rather than worrying about killspam or pure DPS.

This is what it takes to find a better balance. Rather than segregate RvR into the "stealth game" and the "Visi game", try and integrate the two and see how it works. There are a lot of abilities spread amongst the stealther classes that can be an asset to the visible game. I'll leave you all with this short video from The Drunken Ranger.

https://youtu.be/TGsUopwl-lY

Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:04 PM by jelzinga_EU

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 4:38 PM
This big divide between stealther and visible classes doesn't start in the frontier. It starts in the PvE zones.

The reason that stealthers don't know how to function in a visible group is that they don't have any practice doing so.

I'm sorry but that is not true. A stealther can't function in a visible group because the classes are extremely poor in terms of (either) survivability (and/or) DPS in fg-fights. Combine that with the fact you can only PA once and you're left with the DPS of an unbuffed light-tank / caster without resist-debuffs and missing spec D/Q. I'm sorry but there is no other way around it. It has nothing to do with the fact "they don't know how to play" it is because stealthers are not a viable alternative.

Lots of people have played both visibles and stealthers, it is not like they suddenly "loose the knowledge on how to function in a visible group". They know the stealth-classes are extremely sub-par to visibles and decide not to be the fifth wheel on the car and either pick a more useful char or go play the stealther-game.

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 4:38 PM
The reason that visible class players don't know how to properly utilize stealthers in their groups is because they've never had the experience of mixing the two.

I was a stealther player after I shelved my Merc due to radar on live. I left when TOA came out. I re-subbed and played my Ranger again when I returned from deployment (end of 2012), but I was more interested in running with a visible group again. I specced my Ranger to be more useful to a group and developed RvR tactics that better complemented the group. That meant playing differently than I had "as a stealther" and to think about the group's goals in RvR, rather than just my own goals. I did this for 4 years, and definitely got the playstyle down for live, as a stealth class working in a visible group. It took practice first in PvE, and then practice in RvR. It will take practice here on Phoenix as it is a different dynamic without TOA abilities and items as well as sans Champion levels. It can be done however. The other day I ran with a visi group from the guild and we ran into a Mid Caster group that outnumbered us by 1 or 2. After the fight a couple people asked in discord, "how did we survive that? How did we win?" I just responded with "you're welcome!" because I kept the casters interrupted most of the fight rather than worrying about killspam or pure DPS.

This is what it takes to find a better balance. Rather than segregate RvR into the "stealth game" and the "Visi game", try and integrate the two and see how it works. There are a lot of abilities spread amongst the stealther classes that can be an asset to the visible game. I'll leave you all with this short video from The Drunken Ranger.

https://youtu.be/TGsUopwl-lY

I'm sorry but your movie shows nothing most people don't know and is in no way representative of stealthers on Phoenix. Your movie is taken after the archery-revamp which was an attempt from EA/BS to make stealthers more viable (utility-shots, access to MoC). That plan argueably failed on live and even then: It isn't even on Phoenix. Lots of classes would do a better job than your ranger in interrupting while adding a lot more utility/DPS.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:09 PM by Cramit845

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 4:38 PM
This big divide between stealther and visible classes doesn't start in the frontier. It starts in the PvE zones.

The reason that stealthers don't know how to function in a visible group is that they don't have any practice doing so.

The reason that visible class players don't know how to properly utilize stealthers in their groups is because they've never had the experience of mixing the two.

I can't agree with this post enough. On past Classic server shards, I've run groups and have invited stealthers as dps. In most instances, the group works out ok although seemingly dies sooner or I've had players outright quit the group because a stealther was invited. I realize, the game has been out for a long time (I played at beta/launch) and that many folks who come to play here or other classic servers know a lot about the game and how to do things. Which is great and helpful to the community.

However, with all this knowledge and experience that they bring, they also bring their own preconceptions and this is one of them. No stealthers in group otherwise your playing wrong or a whole host of others that people bring into the game. Only wanting focus pull groups or only willing to do certain camps at certain levels etc, etc. This is a community issue and I don't think it can be fixed per say but if folks would be a little more open minded, we could keep higher pop on the server and everyone would have more fun. However, I agree this is like herding cats in trying to change people's minds and no one wants their time wasted, but if a server only lasts a year, then I consider most of that time wasted anyway.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:13 PM by defiasbandit

The stealth problem particularly with Assassins is being dealt with. It is obvious they are an issue on phoenix due to many of the reasons you listed.

Stealth is just too powerful here, hopefully the stealth lore potions offer more counters.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:18 PM by jelzinga_EU

vitu wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 9:51 AM
The chat and the forum have been unbearable the last days, people are crying in an unbelievable childish way.

Just look at the caravan thread: the stealth potion is so hard to get, you need to kill 10 caravans, they just drop 1! Claw for the whole group and you need 10 to get 1 potion with 5 charges with a duration of 1 minute.

In the thread people cry as if the stealth spec has been removed from the game. No one is investing this much time in farming stuff for this potion.

This community consists of adult people throwing a tantrum like a toddler every time something is changed to try to create a good playing experience for everyone.

Best thing is just to ignore this massive crying, accept that there are some unbelievable stupid people playing with you.

So essentially a potion costs 10 claws which gives 10 charges, so overtime 1x Caravan-kill equals 1x Stealth-lore for 1 minute, enough to clear out popular spots. I'm not saying you're wrong, but saying nobody will invest time to get these potions is underestimating the hate of some people against stealthers and the level of grieving players are willing to put out.

I'm not even certain if and what I'm gonna play on Phoenix, but if I read the Discord-chat with quotes like "Stealthers are the cancer of this server" combined with personal attacks and insults I'm pretty sure those people will go out of their way to make the live of a stealther a living hell and grief them as much as possible. That isn't necessarily a bad thing (it is a PvP/RvR game after all) but it is not creating an envirionment where I feel a debate would do anything. Why would anyone discuss something with somebody who instantly goes in a mode with "are u retarded", "ur cancer to server" and what-not. Do you think there is any point discussing with people like that ?

And even then, if you look at the more civilized people: The fact they often talk about "the stealther issue" shows they're already biased into the discussion. While in reality more people get killed by being outnumbered by a FG than by being horribly outnumbered by stealthers. And I'm not saying there aren't stealthers who are discussing in a non-productive way, but both the implementation of the "stealther-cap", which was done horribly and coming as a big surprise didn't exactly help.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:21 PM by defiasbandit

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:18 PM
vitu wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 9:51 AM
The chat and the forum have been unbearable the last days, people are crying in an unbelievable childish way.

Just look at the caravan thread: the stealth potion is so hard to get, you need to kill 10 caravans, they just drop 1! Claw for the whole group and you need 10 to get 1 potion with 5 charges with a duration of 1 minute.

In the thread people cry as if the stealth spec has been removed from the game. No one is investing this much time in farming stuff for this potion.

This community consists of adult people throwing a tantrum like a toddler every time something is changed to try to create a good playing experience for everyone.

Best thing is just to ignore this massive crying, accept that there are some unbelievable stupid people playing with you.

So essentially a potion costs 10 claws which gives 10 charges, so overtime 1x Caravan-kill equals 1x Stealth-lore for 1 minute, enough to clear out popular spots. I'm not saying you're wrong, but saying nobody will invest time to get these potions is underestimating the hate of some people against stealthers and the level of grieving players are willing to put out.

I'm not even certain if and what I'm gonna play on Phoenix, but if I read the Discord-chat with quotes like "Stealthers are the cancer of this server" combined with personal attacks and insults I'm pretty sure those people will go out of their way to make the live of a stealther a living hell and grief them as much as possible. That isn't necessarily a bad thing (it is a PvP/RvR game after all) but it is not creating an envirionment where I feel a debate would do anything. Why would anyone discuss something with somebody who instantly goes in a mode with "are u retarded", "ur cancer to server" and what-not. Do you think there is any point discussing with people like that ?

And even then, if you look at the more civilized people: The fact they often talk about "the stealther issue" shows they're already biased into the discussion. While in reality more people get killed by being outnumbered by a FG than by being horribly outnumbered by stealthers. And I'm not saying there aren't stealthers who are discussing in a non-productive way, but both the implementation of the "stealther-cap", which was done horribly and coming as a big surprise didn't exactly help.

This game is all about unfair fights. That is the main reason players 8man or play stealthers. Initiate fights only when everything is stacked in your favor. That is what is wrong with DAOC. That is how most players choose to play in open world pvp games. Stealth potions at least provide a counter to the stealth game.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:59 PM by poisonclover

get ground target AE and blast up the Mgs. I cant tell you how many kills I get on a earth wizard at amg and a runemaster at mmg.

people are just so lazy to play a class that is a clear nuisance to the stealth community. and would rather sit and whine in /advice or on these forums.

I quickcaster spec bolt, Then VP and insta killed that sb and popped 3 other stealthers… and they got rolled by visables..

if you have an issue with stealthers play a class that has counters stop making devs put new ones on characters that don't need or deserve them.

they are called assasins because they assassinate their target and die 90% of the time right after taking out there target. Its their sole purpose get over it.

you could flat out HALF their damage right now, and they would still kill the same people whining about them being overpowered and doing to much dps. You cant buy talent and you cant teach stupid. remember that.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 6:19 PM by defiasbandit

poisonclover wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:59 PM
get ground target AE and blast up the Mgs. I cant tell you how many kills I get on a earth wizard at amg and a runemaster at mmg.

people are just so lazy to play a class that is a clear nuisance to the stealth community. and would rather sit and whine in /advice or on these forums.

I quickcaster spec bolt, Then VP and insta killed that sb and popped 3 other stealthers… and they got rolled by visables..

if you have an issue with stealthers play a class that has counters stop making devs put new ones on characters that don't need or deserve them.

they are called assasins because they assassinate their target and die 90% of the time right after taking out there target. Its their sole purpose get over it.

you could flat out HALF their damage right now, and they would still kill the same people whining about them being overpowered and doing to much dps. You cant buy talent and you cant teach stupid. remember that.

As Flexberry said, for most stealthers it is about EZMode. That is the prevailing reason players roll stealth classes.

During SI assassins could not level to 50, temp, and acquire raid weapons in one week. Stealthers have so many advantages here they did not used to have. Your earth wizard comment is ridiculous.

Go play your earth wizard in Emain. Stand there spamming GTAE. When you get hit by PA for 80% of your hp, go try to quick cast bolt.

Not only will you die before you even turn around, but even if you land both spells, you will discover the SB has 1700 hp and your spells didnt even do enough damage.

Why do you think there are so many stealthers on this server? They are a powerful class that you can temp and level in no time. All many of us are asking for is some counterplay. Stealth lore potions might offer that.

You think stealthers should just be able to stack and have undetectable stealth. I do not think archers are overtuned. I think Assassins are.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 6:44 PM by relvinian

I played an inf with 50 thrust visible when unable to stealth.

Running with a zerg I got 9 kills, 4 dbs, before I died. I was solo but adding/following zerg.

You can kill a tank without pa if their timed ras are down.

The problem with stealth is that all melee classes here hit too damn hard and the gear is too damn good.

Assassins are just melees, with a lot more utility which includes stealth, poisons, and ridiculous dps and defensive abilities.

I fought 5 moor liches on my inf at the same time 4 were yellow and one was orange. And killed them all with a little kiting and that 9 second stun

Archers can kill deep purple mobs with a little kiting and long enough time. Buffed scouts can kill yellows as fast as a necro and with as little down time.

VWS and other 2h users can destroy mobs endlessly.

At the same time casters get resisted a lot due to lack of mof in rvr. +skill acts as mof in pve but It should either be included in pvp the same or mof needs to be added.

Melee dmg needs to be tweaked down, not up. Casters need a bone. Pet class pets need their pets damage increased from the 5 year old asthmatic levels they are at.

And then porters to emain, snow, and hadriens, or horse routes or something.

Also this is a game which feeds on its players. Once up and running advertise it. It's free, we need new blood, guide for new players, new guilds, population is literally everything in daoc and the pop is low, as expected, since its beta.

High numbers of players will increase the possibilities in almost every area of the game and bring optimism

Mon 29 Oct 2018 6:55 PM by Ceen

This server gets more and more absurd every single day

Mon 29 Oct 2018 6:57 PM by Cadebrennus

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:04 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 4:38 PM
This big divide between stealther and visible classes doesn't start in the frontier. It starts in the PvE zones.

The reason that stealthers don't know how to function in a visible group is that they don't have any practice doing so.

I'm sorry but that is not true. A stealther can't function in a visible group because the classes are extremely poor in terms of (either) survivability (and/or) DPS in fg-fights. Combine that with the fact you can only PA once and you're left with the DPS of an unbuffed light-tank / caster without resist-debuffs and missing spec D/Q. I'm sorry but there is no other way around it. It has nothing to do with the fact "they don't know how to play" it is because stealthers are not a viable alternative.

Lots of people have played both visibles and stealthers, it is not like they suddenly "loose the knowledge on how to function in a visible group". They know the stealth-classes are extremely sub-par to visibles and decide not to be the fifth wheel on the car and either pick a more useful char or go play the stealther-game.

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 4:38 PM
The reason that visible class players don't know how to properly utilize stealthers in their groups is because they've never had the experience of mixing the two.

I was a stealther player after I shelved my Merc due to radar on live. I left when TOA came out. I re-subbed and played my Ranger again when I returned from deployment (end of 2012), but I was more interested in running with a visible group again. I specced my Ranger to be more useful to a group and developed RvR tactics that better complemented the group. That meant playing differently than I had "as a stealther" and to think about the group's goals in RvR, rather than just my own goals. I did this for 4 years, and definitely got the playstyle down for live, as a stealth class working in a visible group. It took practice first in PvE, and then practice in RvR. It will take practice here on Phoenix as it is a different dynamic without TOA abilities and items as well as sans Champion levels. It can be done however. The other day I ran with a visi group from the guild and we ran into a Mid Caster group that outnumbered us by 1 or 2. After the fight a couple people asked in discord, "how did we survive that? How did we win?" I just responded with "you're welcome!" because I kept the casters interrupted most of the fight rather than worrying about killspam or pure DPS.

This is what it takes to find a better balance. Rather than segregate RvR into the "stealth game" and the "Visi game", try and integrate the two and see how it works. There are a lot of abilities spread amongst the stealther classes that can be an asset to the visible game. I'll leave you all with this short video from The Drunken Ranger.

https://youtu.be/TGsUopwl-lY

I'm sorry but your movie shows nothing most people don't know and is in no way representative of stealthers on Phoenix. Your movie is taken after the archery-revamp which was an attempt from EA/BS to make stealthers more viable (utility-shots, access to MoC). That plan argueably failed on live and even then: It isn't even on Phoenix. Lots of classes would do a better job than your ranger in interrupting while adding a lot more utility/DPS.

The other day I was using Rapid Fire here on Phoenix to the same effect. Didn't you see that part in my post? Besides, the video was showing the primary job of an Archer in a group, without showing the other abilities.

Archers have other tools besides Archery. They are great ranged /assist DPS for casters or tank trains, they have weapon styles (and a shield) for peeling or controlling an /assist target.

Assassins have styles for the purposes of the above and they also have poisons. Poisons are great for control, DPS, and for putting disease on a target of the /assist train. They can also break off during a fight, re-stealth, and take out injured support or casters.

Sounds like a lot of utility to me.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 7:06 PM by defiasbandit

Good post Revilian. It is obvious that melee damage here is high. Just look at Assasssins. I do not know how much of this has to do with the easily accessible raid weapons. It was not like this during SI. Full temp and raid weapon Assassins around every corner? Gimme a break.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 10:53 AM by Gnarrg

Agreed stealthers just seem a bit too strong on here. They shouldn't be able to take down enemy melee chars as easily as they can now.

Non-stealth chars standing should have better stealth detection, so that there's a least a chance to see them before the PA.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 1:48 PM by poisonclover

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 6:19 PM
poisonclover wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 5:59 PM
get ground target AE and blast up the Mgs. I cant tell you how many kills I get on a earth wizard at amg and a runemaster at mmg.

people are just so lazy to play a class that is a clear nuisance to the stealth community. and would rather sit and whine in /advice or on these forums.

I quickcaster spec bolt, Then VP and insta killed that sb and popped 3 other stealthers… and they got rolled by visables..

if you have an issue with stealthers play a class that has counters stop making devs put new ones on characters that don't need or deserve them.

they are called assasins because they assassinate their target and die 90% of the time right after taking out there target. Its their sole purpose get over it.

you could flat out HALF their damage right now, and they would still kill the same people whining about them being overpowered and doing to much dps. You cant buy talent and you cant teach stupid. remember that.

As Flexberry said, for most stealthers it is about EZMode. That is the prevailing reason players roll stealth classes.

During SI assassins could not level to 50, temp, and acquire raid weapons in one week. Stealthers have so many advantages here they did not used to have. Your earth wizard comment is ridiculous.

Go play your earth wizard in Emain. Stand there spamming GTAE. When you get hit by PA for 80% of your hp, go try to quick cast bolt.

Not only will you die before you even turn around, but even if you land both spells, you will discover the SB has 1700 hp and your spells didnt even do enough damage.

Why do you think there are so many stealthers on this server? They are a powerful class that you can temp and level in no time. All many of us are asking for is some counterplay. Stealth lore potions might offer that.

You think stealthers should just be able to stack and have undetectable stealth. I do not think archers are overtuned. I think Assassins are.

You honestly have no idea how to play a wizard, and i do sit at the mile gates spamming gtae. Ask people, and have done it successfully for long periods of times. You just don't have a clue how to play the class. You're running around on a class not meant to be solo complaining about not being able to solo lol.. a stealth lore pot isn't going to get you anymore kills I hate to break it to you, its going to make me as a stealthier that was tired of killing you actually just kill you every time now in fear of being stealth lored. Cant wait to see what you bitch and moan about after you get a healthy supply of potions and still get ran over.

all of you people are getting Fully temptlated rr6 stealthers nerfed and the % of people actually going to be this high of a RR and fully templated when it launched is going to be so minute lol... Its asinine,

Most people who play stealthers do it because of available time, or not getting a group in rvr. and excel at a lot of other classes it really doesn't bother me if they nerf a class i love to play, because then ill just move on to the next, but i hate seeing everything and everyone against one class that cant do anything but grief play lol. its hilarious.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 4:36 PM by defiasbandit

The devs are fixing classes that are clearly overtuned. Assassins are overtuned here. Yes I know walking up and clicking PA for 80% of somebody's health requires insane skill. Main reason people play those classes is because they are easier to solo on as a visible. Maybe that isn't the case for you.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 10:03 PM by Tool73

Cant see Hunter overtuned here, but nerfed in many ways now. thought this would be 1.65 with some little random changes for comfort, not this. Seems some cry about to much solo kills for stealterh on forum, whats natural in my opinion, and they do changes. With stealth Lore pots, pure solo can`t get, cause 3 red/purple to kill for, this server is done for me!

Tue 30 Oct 2018 10:30 PM by phixion

Of course people don’t want to play visible, standing around LFG and then hoping the group isn’t terrible is just too much for some.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 11:20 PM by Cadebrennus

phixion wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 10:30 PM
Of course people don’t want to play visible, standing around LFG and then hoping the group isn’t terrible is just too much for some.

If people stopped standing around and waiting for the perfect group then maybe they would get groups going faster. Having classes in your group that are not the norm and aren't the "perfect class" can actually be fun because they change and enhance the group dynamic.

Just try it instead of standing around DL waiting for the perfect group.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 11:50 PM by phixion

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 11:20 PM
If people stopped standing around and waiting for the perfect group then maybe they would get groups going faster. Having classes in your group that are not the norm and aren't the "perfect class" can actually be fun because they change and enhance the group dynamic.

Just try it instead of standing around DL waiting for the perfect group.

I haven’t done that in years, when I log on to DAoC I want to play. I don’t want my play time to be dictated by others.

I agree that the perfect group mindset is a plague on the game and it’s part of the reason I always play stealthers.

Standing around waiting for people, only for them to log after the first death ain’t my idea of fun, it goes back to not relying on others for my fun.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 11:59 PM by defiasbandit

phixion wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 11:50 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 11:20 PM
If people stopped standing around and waiting for the perfect group then maybe they would get groups going faster. Having classes in your group that are not the norm and aren't the "perfect class" can actually be fun because they change and enhance the group dynamic.

Just try it instead of standing around DL waiting for the perfect group.

I haven’t done that in years, when I log on to DAoC I want to play. I don’t want my play time to be dictated by others.

I agree that the perfect group mindset is a plague on the game and it’s part of the reason I always play stealthers.

Standing around waiting for people, only for them to log after the first death ain’t my idea of fun, it goes back to not relying on others for my fun.

That has always been one of the biggest issues with this game. It is large reason why players left the game many years ago. You can attribute much of that to the group size, as well as players not using large groups to fight over objectives.

Thu 1 Nov 2018 12:21 AM by Thinal

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 11:20 PM
If people stopped standing around and waiting for the perfect group then maybe they would get groups going faster. Having classes in your group that are not the norm and aren't the "perfect class" can actually be fun because they change and enhance the group dynamic.

Just try it instead of standing around DL waiting for the perfect group.

Depends on what realm and where you're going. People in Hib who are grouping to not get immediately rolled in Emain don't want to be in a group that... immediately gets rolled in Emain. Some don't want to be blamed for getting the group rolled immediately, fairly or not. Some don't want to be the reason the group got rolled, blamed or not.

I'd love to play Hibbie visible support classes, but we ask WAY too much of them. Hibernia has a tight, tight meta with no easy, forgiving, or flexible-for-design-or-class roles. It's sad to see specific bards get openly trashed on public channels because they were apparently the ONLY reason some ubertastic player died.

I keep saying that predictable behavior is not a character flaw (short version) and you have to look at the underlying mechanics. Hibernia was kicking some freaking ass in i30, and has dwindled to near nothingness in i50. Caledonia was on equal footing; Emain is not.

Fri 2 Nov 2018 10:31 PM by Sepplord

playerbase has grown up and has tight scedules nowadays...
you either have a premade 8man, or you are out of luck if you want to get any meaningful playtime without dedicating at least 3hours in a single playsession

imo 8man groups are just not feasible anymore, and it is natural that in such an environment many will flock to a character that they can solo better on.
I would love to play visibles when the live-launch happens, i always preferred it over playing stealthers, but my group of friends is 5people, and rarely we are all on together.
5man groupcap will never happen on this server, but imo that is the only way that it will not be mostly 8man and stealthers

The other thing that shouldn't be forgotten is, that stealthers won't run around fullbuffed on launch. I don't know why they included fulllbuffs for the BETA when it won't be there on live, but they did, and it is skewing the picture

Tue 4 Dec 2018 7:43 AM by Ceen

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 10:31 PM
The other thing that shouldn't be forgotten is, that stealthers won't run around fullbuffed on launch. I don't know why they included fulllbuffs for the BETA when it won't be there on live, but they did, and it is skewing the picture

My ranger was fully buffed before i50 and so were some others, the rest was just click click eazy RP =)
Stealth wars is charge wars.

Tue 4 Dec 2018 4:38 PM by Horus

I play a stealther (archer class) for one reason..my current RL situation is such that I have to AFK often, log without much warning, or just do not have the long play windows to commit to a group. A stealth class offers me an option to play, otherwise I might not be able to viably.

I've said it before and I know I am in the minority, but if you want to help eliminate an over population of stealthers, eliminate all forms of buffs from potions and items.

All buffs should only come from buffing spec lines. ..and have no buffbots. No stat buff potions, no buff charges on items.

I know few agree...but it would def make stealthers not as much of a threat and would encourage other solo classes (like self buffers).

Tue 4 Dec 2018 7:03 PM by Skorra

Horus wrote: I know few agree...but it would def make stealthers not as much of a threat and would encourage other solo classes (like self buffers).

I play ranger and NS and I want buffs, I want it all and I want it now!
DAoC Group-Play sucks as hell. After every wipe at least 2 guys leave the group. Also the useless Voice-chat discussions.
I want buffs and go out! Not talking about your problems.

Stealth zergs? No problem, come Emain and bring your friends too, I will hit them and you too.
But I need Buffs, Charges and all the pretty stuff that makes Phoenix better than Uthgard.

Tue 4 Dec 2018 8:25 PM by Horus

Skorra wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Dec 2018 7:03 PM
Horus wrote: I know few agree...but it would def make stealthers not as much of a threat and would encourage other solo classes (like self buffers).

I play ranger and NS and I want buffs, I want it all and I want it now!
DAoC Group-Play sucks as hell. After every wipe at least 2 guys leave the group. Also the useless Voice-chat discussions.
I want buffs and go out! Not talking about your problems.

Stealth zergs? No problem, come Emain and bring your friends too, I will hit them and you too.
But I need Buffs, Charges and all the pretty stuff that makes Phoenix better than Uthgard.

On a Ranger you have a self buff spec line. The archer classes were balanced with that in mind. If you start making that line obsolete then you are essentially hurting the class. You should be agreeing with me!

Tue 4 Dec 2018 9:16 PM by chryso

My friar agrees with you completely.

Tue 4 Dec 2018 10:09 PM by Skorra

Horus wrote: On a Ranger you have a self buff spec line. The archer classes were balanced with that in mind. If you start making that line obsolete then you are essentially hurting the class. You should be agreeing with me!

Okay you convinced me. Delete buffs! I will create Healer and invite all the "Diehards" they won't go out solo anymore because they can get no buffs.
Then you can delete your Ranger, because your only enemies are french Pros, who have absolutly no life.

Mon 17 Dec 2018 7:44 AM by PurplePoloPlayer

20 years later and this debate is still raging. I can't wait to roll my Nightshade and start collecting tears. We'll have the rage flowing VNboards style in no time!!!

Wed 19 Dec 2018 9:09 PM by relvinian

The other solution to stealthers and pkers is anti pk guilds

Take 2-3 stealthers and watch your side pvp in the frontier.

Then when they surprise the pvpers, you can surprise them with a nice pa or crit shot or 3.

Sat 22 Dec 2018 4:27 AM by Emeryc

Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Dec 2018 4:38 PM
I play a stealther (archer class) for one reason..my current RL situation is such that I have to AFK often, log without much warning, or just do not have the long play windows to commit to a group. A stealth class offers me an option to play, otherwise I might not be able to viably.

I've said it before and I know I am in the minority, but if you want to help eliminate an over population of stealthers, eliminate all forms of buffs from potions and items.

All buffs should only come from buffing spec lines. ..and have no buffbots. No stat buff potions, no buff charges on items.

I know few agree...but it would def make stealthers not as much of a threat and would encourage other solo classes (like self buffers).

This. This. A thousand times, this!

A lot of you are talking about stealth and PA chains and poisons and blah, blah, blah... it's none of that. It's the buffs. Assassins and archers were fine on early live, if a bit annoying. Then everyone started using buff-bots and then Assassins and Rangers could straight up melee as well or better than any other toon. Then came pots and charges to try and even it all out and down the rabbit hole we went.

Keep buffs in groups and we aren't having this discussion.

Yes, I know that will never happen.

Mon 24 Dec 2018 2:32 PM by Zansobar

Emeryc wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Dec 2018 4:27 AM
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Dec 2018 4:38 PM
I play a stealther (archer class) for one reason..my current RL situation is such that I have to AFK often, log without much warning, or just do not have the long play windows to commit to a group. A stealth class offers me an option to play, otherwise I might not be able to viably.

I've said it before and I know I am in the minority, but if you want to help eliminate an over population of stealthers, eliminate all forms of buffs from potions and items.

All buffs should only come from buffing spec lines. ..and have no buffbots. No stat buff potions, no buff charges on items.

I know few agree...but it would def make stealthers not as much of a threat and would encourage other solo classes (like self buffers).

This. This. A thousand times, this!

A lot of you are talking about stealth and PA chains and poisons and blah, blah, blah... it's none of that. It's the buffs. Assassins and archers were fine on early live, if a bit annoying. Then everyone started using buff-bots and then Assassins and Rangers could straight up melee as well or better than any other toon. Then came pots and charges to try and even it all out and down the rabbit hole we went.

Keep buffs in groups and we aren't having this discussion.

Yes, I know that will never happen.

The game is already far too 8v8 heavy. Stealthers are about the only thing that mixes that up somewhat. Archers were balanced around the early buffbot times in the game (that where all those early patches that nerfed archer damage came from). On servers without buffbots Archers are really not playable as Archers, instead they have to be played as mellee toons, and even then its an uphill battle. Without archers, assassins are going to have fewer and fewer targets and most likely only the true diehards will stay playing them. That leaves us with visible group play only, which ultimately leads to 8v8 elitism and the death of the server.

What would really stir things up is if they limited the max group size to, say 4 players or so. Then you couldn't make optimal groups and would have to pick and choose what abilities you'd want and how much dps. Only problem is Bards would be extremely overpowered given the mix of critical abilities in one class (speed, mez, heals).

Mon 24 Dec 2018 3:01 PM by phixion

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Dec 2018 2:32 PM
What would really stir things up is if they limited the max group size to, say 4 players or so. Then you couldn't make optimal groups and would have to pick and choose what abilities you'd want and how much dps. Only problem is Bards would be extremely overpowered given the mix of critical abilities in one class (speed, mez, heals).

And then you would get 2 groups of 4 running together... lol

Thu 27 Dec 2018 2:41 AM by Emeryc

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Dec 2018 2:32 PM
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Dec 2018 4:27 AM
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Dec 2018 4:38 PM
I play a stealther (archer class) for one reason..my current RL situation is such that I have to AFK often, log without much warning, or just do not have the long play windows to commit to a group. A stealth class offers me an option to play, otherwise I might not be able to viably.

I've said it before and I know I am in the minority, but if you want to help eliminate an over population of stealthers, eliminate all forms of buffs from potions and items.

All buffs should only come from buffing spec lines. ..and have no buffbots. No stat buff potions, no buff charges on items.

I know few agree...but it would def make stealthers not as much of a threat and would encourage other solo classes (like self buffers).

This. This. A thousand times, this!

A lot of you are talking about stealth and PA chains and poisons and blah, blah, blah... it's none of that. It's the buffs. Assassins and archers were fine on early live, if a bit annoying. Then everyone started using buff-bots and then Assassins and Rangers could straight up melee as well or better than any other toon. Then came pots and charges to try and even it all out and down the rabbit hole we went.

Keep buffs in groups and we aren't having this discussion.

Yes, I know that will never happen.

The game is already far too 8v8 heavy. Stealthers are about the only thing that mixes that up somewhat. Archers were balanced around the early buffbot times in the game (that where all those early patches that nerfed archer damage came from). On servers without buffbots Archers are really not playable as Archers, instead they have to be played as mellee toons, and even then its an uphill battle. Without archers, assassins are going to have fewer and fewer targets and most likely only the true diehards will stay playing them. That leaves us with visible group play only, which ultimately leads to 8v8 elitism and the death of the server.

I totally agree. What would mitigate this AND stir things up is quite simple: remove all AoE buffs, buff pots and buff charges. Keep buffs to those in group and on a range. This would do several things:
-It would change the group meta by forcing groups to choose between top notch buffs OR better heals/crowd control to the group by Druids/Healers/Clerics.
-It would change the group meta by creating a need (or at least an option) to focus fire on the buffing toon to drop buffs.
-It would bring Endurance back into the game. Knowing how to manage styles so you don't run out of endurance was a large part of a good player on old live. (Yes, I'm aware of the other issues regarding Bards, etc. but these can be dealt with separately.)
-It would eliminate solos walking around with full buffs, thereby competing as if they were grouped.
-It would bring balance back to stealth classes, especially Assassins. (There is far more parity between an unbuffed Assassin and an unbuffed opponent than when both toons are fully buffed... and heaven knows a fully buffed Assassin will destroy nearly any other unbuffed toon with great regularity.)

-All of the above would bring Small Man back into the game with much more complexity.
-All of the above would bring stealthers back into the game because they can have an impact against other groups, rather than just leaching, which in turn will eliminate the "stealth war" that became so annoying.

Years ago, Mythic needed to keep the game interesting to players who felt the game had become stagnant. Players needed more complexity without more complications. ToA did the exact opposite... it made the game more complicated but less complex. Buffs, in the current state, do the same thing: make the game more complicated but less complex.

Thu 27 Dec 2018 5:03 AM by Cadebrennus

Emeryc wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Dec 2018 2:41 AM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Dec 2018 2:32 PM
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Dec 2018 4:27 AM
This. This. A thousand times, this!

A lot of you are talking about stealth and PA chains and poisons and blah, blah, blah... it's none of that. It's the buffs. Assassins and archers were fine on early live, if a bit annoying. Then everyone started using buff-bots and then Assassins and Rangers could straight up melee as well or better than any other toon. Then came pots and charges to try and even it all out and down the rabbit hole we went.

Keep buffs in groups and we aren't having this discussion.

Yes, I know that will never happen.

The game is already far too 8v8 heavy. Stealthers are about the only thing that mixes that up somewhat. Archers were balanced around the early buffbot times in the game (that where all those early patches that nerfed archer damage came from). On servers without buffbots Archers are really not playable as Archers, instead they have to be played as mellee toons, and even then its an uphill battle. Without archers, assassins are going to have fewer and fewer targets and most likely only the true diehards will stay playing them. That leaves us with visible group play only, which ultimately leads to 8v8 elitism and the death of the server.

I totally agree. What would mitigate this AND stir things up is quite simple: remove all AoE buffs, buff pots and buff charges. Keep buffs to those in group and on a range. This would do several things:
-It would change the group meta by forcing groups to choose between top notch buffs OR better heals/crowd control to the group by Druids/Healers/Clerics.
-It would change the group meta by creating a need (or at least an option) to focus fire on the buffing toon to drop buffs.
-It would bring Endurance back into the game. Knowing how to manage styles so you don't run out of endurance was a large part of a good player on old live. (Yes, I'm aware of the other issues regarding Bards, etc. but these can be dealt with separately.)
-It would eliminate solos walking around with full buffs, thereby competing as if they were grouped.
-It would bring balance back to stealth classes, especially Assassins. (There is far more parity between an unbuffed Assassin and an unbuffed opponent than when both toons are fully buffed... and heaven knows a fully buffed Assassin will destroy nearly any other unbuffed toon with great regularity.)

-All of the above would bring Small Man back into the game with much more complexity.
-All of the above would bring stealthers back into the game because they can have an impact against other groups, rather than just leaching, which in turn will eliminate the "stealth war" that became so annoying.

Years ago, Mythic needed to keep the game interesting to players who felt the game had become stagnant. Players needed more complexity without more complications. ToA did the exact opposite... it made the game more complicated but less complex. Buffs, in the current state, do the same thing: make the game more complicated but less complex.

This 100%. In addition the "melee fix" and "AF fix" are actually balanced to TOA standards and champion abilities, which is completely off for a server based on 1.65. I went over to Uth and did some testing and the damage is equal..... considering that my Ranger has 70 less strength
than on Phoenix and is 39+11 Blades @RR1 on Uth Vs here on Phoenix with 50+16 Blades and tested at RR6 (testing only Blades styles). The numbers are definitely way off on Phoenix now.

Thu 27 Dec 2018 5:52 AM by florin

this game would be 2x more enjoyable not having to manage buffs and charges and farming for them as a solo - and self buffs would actually mean something

Fri 28 Dec 2018 4:04 PM by Emeryc

florin wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Dec 2018 5:52 AM
this game would be 2x more enjoyable not having to manage buffs and charges and farming for them as a solo - and self buffs would actually mean something

That's exactly what I mean by "more complicated, less complex." A thousand tedious little things to manage, all of which reduce the gameplay to a tired routine of mashing the same 4 buttons.