Please end i50 - Phoenix Freeshard

It's killing ALL classic freeshards, because it's killing the concept. We get to see what the logical conclusion of 1.65 is, and it ain't pretty.

This is why MMOs hand out tiny, tiny dollops of progress. I always thought it was to bleed subscriptions, but now I see it's just that the emperor has no clothes. The end game is NOT worth hundreds of hours of normal play to get here.

Please either go straight to release where we can pretend this didn't happen and go back to grinding, or reset the beta so we can face this problem head on and find a solution for it... but while not burning out the little fun left in this game in the meantime, because THAT problem is gonna take longer than a day or two to solve.

"But OMG I like where things are" -- of course you do. This is a vote-with-your-feet scenario, and the majority of people who don't leave will always prefer the existing mechanic. It's a question of who it didn't attract. I'd say Uthgard was looking better right now, but as I started this post, you've killed any hope of going back there and pretending that its end game could possibly be any better. So, two birds.

Fri 26 Oct 2018 8:11 PM by imissswg

I was thinking the same thing. I've been logging in less and less since i50. Port to Emain/zerg/die/rinse/repeat.

Fri 26 Oct 2018 8:12 PM by Ninefingers

About as accurate a summation of MMO gaming as i have ever read. Having the same level of experience as the poster (around 20 years) i have to actually agree. None theless, when it DOES release i'll be here to enjoy my progress until that inevitable day when i too realise the emperor has no clothes (again), and look for the next MMO to restart the cycle with!

Fri 26 Oct 2018 8:29 PM by defiasbandit

i50 exposes a lot of the failures of DAOC. Lack of speed, 8 player group size, no end goal or purpose to RvR.

Which is why you create a win condition. So there is a winning realm. Have seasons. Have resets. Have a system that is constantly rewarding its playerbase. Have a system with defined objectives and zones and player progression.

DAOC does little to none of these things. Just endless running in circles around Emain farming RP. It has been this way for over 15 years.

Fri 26 Oct 2018 9:40 PM by Jax

People will progress through to 50.
People will progress through with template.
People will try to earn realm points.
People will get consumed by 8 mans.
People will get frustrated with their lack of progression.
People will get bored of going to Emain to fight.
People will get tired of one realm holding the relics.
People will get tired of needing Speed 6 or Stealth to have any hope of not getting stomped.
People will stop logging on.

This is the history of Uthgard. Don't repeat it.

Fri 26 Oct 2018 9:45 PM by Bigga

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 8:29 PM
i50 exposes a lot of the failures of DAOC. Lack of speed, 8 player group size, no end goal or purpose to RvR.

Which is why you create a win condition. So there is a winning realm. Have seasons. Have resets. Have a system that is constantly rewarding its playerbase. Have a system with defined objectives and zones and player progression.

DAOC does little to none of these things. Just endless running in circles around Emain farming RP. It has been this way for over 15 years.

exactly this is the reason why i dont play that often anymore. my first thoughts were: omfg nice, a classic server with qol features ..... but even now on friday WEEKEND .... i dont log ... cuz i get farmed by 8 mans and i dont want play 8 man or forced to play zerg..... i want solo / smally .... but i have only 1 option: stealther ..... but boring as hell ..... so i prefer to dont log and getting mad

Fri 26 Oct 2018 11:18 PM by Takii

I'm confused. You all seem to understand that this server is in beta, yet you're complaining like i50 is the intended final form of the server?

The goal of i50 isn't to make the server more fun. Just stop playing and come back on launch if you're not having fun.

Fri 26 Oct 2018 11:24 PM by defiasbandit

Jax wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 9:40 PM
People will progress through to 50.
People will progress through with template.
People will try to earn realm points.
People will get consumed by 8 mans.
People will get frustrated with their lack of progression.
People will get bored of going to Emain to fight.
People will get tired of one realm holding the relics.
People will get tired of needing Speed 6 or Stealth to have any hope of not getting stomped.
People will stop logging on.

This is the history of Uthgard. Don't repeat it.

I don't know why more individuals do not understand this.

Fri 26 Oct 2018 11:50 PM by Waygone

I can't imagine this merry-go-round of i50 rvr accomplishing anything regarding testing purposes except players realizing end-game has little in the way of excitement as it is now. I, personally am having some fun but it is monotonous to say the least.
If the devs can't incentivize keep takes or tasks I can't see things changing whatsoever. The good thing is, with things going as is, an announcement regarding wipe/launch should be nearing. (100% speculation)

Sat 27 Oct 2018 2:47 AM by Redattack

Honestly, I'm having a blast with i50 so far. I'm fairly new here and haven't played before i50, but personally I'm having a great time. I'm debating whether or not to stay once i50 is over, because I hate PvE grinding more than anything, but so far during the event I've been having a blast in Emain. Action is constant and quick to access, and the nostalgia factor is great. I get that it might get boring and monotonous after a while, but I feel like if there was some more incentive for keep/relic takes, that could easily be avoided. Ultimately this is the end result once everyone hits 50 and gets temped, the only way to really change that imo is to provide incentive to actually do something else.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 4:49 AM by Dariussdars

Takii wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 11:18 PM
I'm confused. You all seem to understand that this server is in beta, yet you're complaining like i50 is the intended final form of the server?

The goal of i50 isn't to make the server more fun. Just stop playing and come back on launch if you're not having fun.

I50 is a glimpse into the future, once most players hit 50 for real. 8 mans go out of their way to destroy anything that moves, whether it is a solo visi, a solo stealther, or a duo. Most players get sick of getting insta killed the minute they step out in the frontier.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 7:56 AM by Ninefingers

The best and worst things about daoc are actually the same thing. The fact that RVR is not in anyway limited or forced in terms of its number or scope. At it's best this produces natural, balanced conflict that colours the thinking of many of us about the halcyon days of our gaming lives. At it's worst it created completely imbalanced fights that pitch elite *neckbeard* gamers against casual pug's or 8man's v solo or zergs v 8man.

The most difficult thing for any game designer is to produce a system that has open sandbox RVR but where players CHOOSE to participate in fights that are more or less balanced. There is a reason that WoW and the like went for ranked arena PVP, it balances PVP in an artifical way so that developers don't have this heady problem. Add to this the fact that human nature is always to take the easiest route to a goal , and you have the hardest conundrum possible.

So how could this be achieved, to somehow make players CHOOSE to participate in more balanced fights?

1) have a huge difference in the amount of RP's for players of different realm ranks. Kill a RR1 or 2 on a RR6+ = say 10% normal RP amount. You want to reward players engaging others of similar realm rank so they will CHOOSE to fight in areas that have similarly experienced players, this might lead to player made 'zones' i.e 'dont go to odins, thats the RR6+ battlezone, newbs tend to fight in HW which is rr2+

2) Scale the amount of RP's gained for a kill based on the % of your realm in an area relative the other realms, i.e. for every 1% your realm outpopulates the next highest realm in the area you lose 5% RP on kills. This will force people to look at the pop in an area and move elsewhere if pop of their realm is too high.

3) Have a large variety of tasks/objectives that all give RP. This will mean that there area always options to gain RP that casual players can gain without running into one of the experienced teams, they cant be everywhere at once. Make sure they are geographically diverse. This RP gain needs to be meaningful, you should be able to gain at least 5k an hour from these activities to make them worthwhile. Have the optimal RP gain being for 8 people, and above this the amount of RP's scales down to avoid zergs simply RP tasking from one point the next. The idea is that a casual PUG can take an objective, and that there are say at least 10 objectives available at any given time (above and beyond keeptakes)

Sat 27 Oct 2018 8:31 AM by Sei

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 11:24 PM
Jax wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 9:40 PM
People will progress through to 50.
People will progress through with template.
People will try to earn realm points.
People will get consumed by 8 mans.
People will get frustrated with their lack of progression.
People will get bored of going to Emain to fight.
People will get tired of one realm holding the relics.
People will get tired of needing Speed 6 or Stealth to have any hope of not getting stomped.
People will stop logging on.

This is the history of Uthgard. Don't repeat it.

I don't know why more individuals do not understand this.

Well it s daoc.

The only counter measure i Can find to this is putting Season with changes /New content

Sat 27 Oct 2018 9:47 AM by defiasbandit

Ninefingers wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Oct 2018 7:56 AM
The best and worst things about daoc are actually the same thing. The fact that RVR is not in anyway limited or forced in terms of its number or scope. At it's best this produces natural, balanced conflict that colours the thinking of many of us about the halcyon days of our gaming lives. At it's worst it created completely imbalanced fights that pitch elite *neckbeard* gamers against casual pug's or 8man's v solo or zergs v 8man.

The most difficult thing for any game designer is to produce a system that has open sandbox RVR but where players CHOOSE to participate in fights that are more or less balanced. There is a reason that WoW and the like went for ranked arena PVP, it balances PVP in an artifical way so that developers don't have this heady problem. Add to this the fact that human nature is always to take the easiest route to a goal , and you have the hardest conundrum possible.

So how could this be achieved, to somehow make players CHOOSE to participate in more balanced fights?

1) have a huge difference in the amount of RP's for players of different realm ranks. Kill a RR1 or 2 on a RR6+ = say 10% normal RP amount. You want to reward players engaging others of similar realm rank so they will CHOOSE to fight in areas that have similarly experienced players, this might lead to player made 'zones' i.e 'dont go to odins, thats the RR6+ battlezone, newbs tend to fight in HW which is rr2+

2) Scale the amount of RP's gained for a kill based on the % of your realm in an area relative the other realms, i.e. for every 1% your realm outpopulates the next highest realm in the area you lose 5% RP on kills. This will force people to look at the pop in an area and move elsewhere if pop of their realm is too high.

3) Have a large variety of tasks/objectives that all give RP. This will mean that there area always options to gain RP that casual players can gain without running into one of the experienced teams, they cant be everywhere at once. Make sure they are geographically diverse. This RP gain needs to be meaningful, you should be able to gain at least 5k an hour from these activities to make them worthwhile. Have the optimal RP gain being for 8 people, and above this the amount of RP's scales down to avoid zergs simply RP tasking from one point the next. The idea is that a casual PUG can take an objective, and that there are say at least 10 objectives available at any given time (above and beyond keeptakes)

How does any of that stop players from 8v2ing.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 10:16 AM by Joc

It doesn't

Sat 27 Oct 2018 11:41 AM by

gruenesschaf

I50 is not representative of how it will be later. In i50 nobody cares about their progress, nobody cares about keeps or relics.

Before i50 keep / domination / zone tasks gave 3k rp at rr 1 - 3 and scaled down by rr and people were following the tasks, now at the start of the i50 together with the general kill rp reduction this was reduced to 1.5k, we also thought that maybe the reward was too little and hence nobody does it so yesterday tasks were made to scale with time too -> the longer a task is going on the more it's worth, now a non emain task is at 17.5k participation rp and still nobody is doing it and people are still in emain.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 11:58 AM by Thinal

Takii wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 11:18 PM
I'm confused. You all seem to understand that this server is in beta, yet you're complaining like i50 is the intended final form of the server?

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Oct 2018 11:41 AM
I50 is not representative of how it will be later.

The problem isn't that this is in any way release + 1 week mechanics. This is indeed a warped version of the game.

The problem is that the release version of this game will always be *worse* than this, and slowly approach this over time. What we're looking at right now is actually best-case scenario. When it's not-this, it'll be less-than-this, not more-than-this, because all of the not-this time will be cutting bait: levelling, levelling alts and farmers, grinding tradeskills, grinding cash and trade items, building the perfect template.

That's the stuff many of us thought we hated, but it turns out it was the only thing keeping the game going.

If people aren't taking keeps, setting foot out of Emain, or rolling non-stealthers now, is there going to be the slightest increase in incentive to do these things when the RvR population zeroes out for release and slowly builds back up to what it is now over time? People might be more desperate for RPs in that environment, but we have an unfiltered view now that those RPs are character progression and a means to an end. i50 is the end, except it will be with far fewer people.

This is worse than reading the last chapter of the book first. This is reading the last chapter of a massive epic series and discovering that it really wasn't that good.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 12:14 PM by

gruenesschaf

How is any of that new? What do you think why there has never been an i50 shard with longterm success? Without any attachment to characters the progress is meaningless and you're left with just fighting for the sake of fighting which is great fun for a time but for many people gets super boring really quick. WIth instant rr5l9 and hence without influx of new / weak characters you also never see the despised power disparity of new vs old characters in action but it's one of the defining things in daoc how that dynamic plays out.

Players always try to find the way of least resistence to do what they want to do, while progress still meant something that meant following the most efficient way to achieve progress -> tasks, now with only fighting for the sake of fighting the most efficient way to achieve that is to stay in emain.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 2:41 PM by Thinal

I'm no DAoC freeshard historian, so I neither know nor give a flying fuck how many i50s have been done before. Zero, millions, not a damn bit of difference to my concern.

I'm glad you're enjoying this. It would be sad if nobody did. Please bear in mind though that you keep talking about the path of least resistance, but I'm talking about the final destination. People behaving differently from being emotionally invested in their avatars is just part of the progression that I and others have discussed here, the progression that's been stripped and laid bare.

I'm blaming the players for nothing. It's like blaming individual molecules of gas that escape from a pressurized container that's been punctured. This comes down to core underlying mechanics, partly original DAoC devs, partly Phoenix devs, and partly MMOs in general. But mostly the original framework of 1.65.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 3:02 PM by Tyton

I don't know if any thread has hurt my brain more than this one lol.

This is the i50 phase of beta. Why would they just "end" it? Beta doesn't exist for the sole purpose of us having fun, it's testing. Maybe DAoC does have some late game issues re: RvR (but every game has something endgame wise to complain about). On a real server (not beta) there's plenty more to do than just roll Emain. If you don't like DAoC, why come here. If you do and think it's fixable, make a well thought out suggestion besides "end i50."

Sat 27 Oct 2018 3:19 PM by kedelin

Thinal wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Oct 2018 11:58 AM
Takii wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 11:18 PM
I'm confused. You all seem to understand that this server is in beta, yet you're complaining like i50 is the intended final form of the server?

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Oct 2018 11:41 AM
I50 is not representative of how it will be later.

The problem isn't that this is in any way release + 1 week mechanics. This is indeed a warped version of the game.

The problem is that the release version of this game will always be *worse* than this, and slowly approach this over time. What we're looking at right now is actually best-case scenario. When it's not-this, it'll be less-than-this, not more-than-this, because all of the not-this time will be cutting bait: levelling, levelling alts and farmers, grinding tradeskills, grinding cash and trade items, building the perfect template.

That's the stuff many of us thought we hated, but it turns out it was the only thing keeping the game going.

If people aren't taking keeps, setting foot out of Emain, or rolling non-stealthers now, is there going to be the slightest increase in incentive to do these things when the RvR population zeroes out for release and slowly builds back up to what it is now over time? People might be more desperate for RPs in that environment, but we have an unfiltered view now that those RPs are character progression and a means to an end. i50 is the end, except it will be with far fewer people.

This is worse than reading the last chapter of the book first. This is reading the last chapter of a massive epic series and discovering that it really wasn't that good.

I my self have made and tested 20 toons in i50 just to see what I wanna play... and yes there is no realm pride or anyone wanna take keeps because they have no emotional attachment to the char they are playing or the realm.... it does change when someone spends 60hours in game on one toon just to get ready to rvr...

Right now most people just run out and die solo to zergs cause they are to lazy to form a group and run out... even if it's a small man you can run with the rest of the groups and actually have heals and speed and a chance at winning...

Last night there were 4fgm and 3fga at any all night but my hib group still got some fights.. and we just didn't go to the mile gate and feed the zerg

Sat 27 Oct 2018 3:33 PM by Dominus

I think many who have posted don't understand the beta's purpose at this point in time. I'm confident the devs are reviewing data on class damage / balance etc. If you aren't in the "beta mindset", I would suggest you that you come back after the game goes live.

Keep in mind none of the staff hold a paid position. It's a thankless job and I for one am fatigued reading the hum drum posts of late. I'm sure it grates on them as well.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 9:33 PM by Thinal

kedelin wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Oct 2018 3:19 PM
Right now most people just run out and die solo to zergs cause they are to lazy to form a group and run out...

There is no such thing as "laziness" in how one participates in leisure activity.

Activities that are widespread and predictable aren't character flaws. If you want them "fixed", you need to look at the underlying incentive structures.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 10:04 PM by Armsmancer

I stopped playing when i50 dropped. I did a lot of testing here and hope it contributes to the end product, but whatever drives me to play isn't entertaining with i50 for several reasons I won't go in to.

I do have a feeling in the back of my mind they don't understand how cool everyone would be with launching something soon and clearly state it is a work in progress and patches will come, I mean that is what it will be anyway as far as we all know, always patches needed. The server has been mostly great besides like the daily LD's and reboots, they had a great server setting that was clearly popular and many would play even if they had to wait for some patches later. I just bought a new video game RDR2 and multiplayer isn't even out for like a month or two but we all know it is coming and it is very popular, there is stuff to do in the mean time and everyone is happy.

From start of this to now the only thing I can see that really needs put in first are relics. I'd hope relics were in and fixed then they would work on extra stuff that came later like caravans etc. I know certain people work on certain things but the guy coding caravan's I'd probably have also doing guard pathing or whatever is holding up relic keeps from working normally. This is a full assumption but it is what is in my mind about it - even without relics I had a blast on beta even knowing the fuse was lit on how long I'd have what I worked for before it got wiped.

I'm not in charge of this though and if I was Vivien/team they are doing all the work I just get to play their vision at their pleasure.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 10:12 PM by

gruenesschaf

The main reason why we don't just release "now" and do patches later is that many of the staff actually want to play on release, many on the staff haven't really played at all and while obviously in the first couple days hot fixes will happen and also some constant bug fixing will be going on, new feature development will likely stop entirely until a couple weeks after launch.

That's also why you see features, like caravans, or events before "fixing everything" because once most things that have an impact are fixed it'll be release.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 11:24 PM by Cider

People making so many assumptions and even moaning about DAOC end game RVR in general? Does not make much sense to me TBH. This is NOT a true representation of how it will actually be, and no it is also not the "best case scenario" therefore worse on full release. This is just how people behave when almost everything is given to them without requiring effort.

What this is, is a demonstration that giving people stuff for free with no effort on their part leads to frivolous and abnormal behaviour. This has also been magnified further here by a reduction of rewards and therefore reduction of possible progression, giving people even less incentive to care or put effort into it, and also amplified even further by this being a beta with a wipe coming. This has all manifested itself here with people taking the path of least resistance, which is porting to emain for quick action (even if its "poorer" quality with a noticeable reduced hib presence due to their distance disadvantage) while completely ignoring the great (IMO) task system we have in place here.

IMO the real problem was giving RR 5l9 for free + reducing possible progression in a reasonable time frame (especially because its a beta). I think i50 + wiped RPS with a vastly increased reward system (both tasks and for kills+keeps) would have been better as I believe people would be following the tasks more, and not just this emain BG we are seeing ATM. It too late for the RPS wipe now though, however I still think a large increase in rewards, and therefore (faster) progression in a reasonable time frame for beta could work to change things for the better. A reduction for just porting to emain for fights could help the current situation too, but I think this will be hard to implement without having other possible negative affects.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 5:31 PM by Ninefingers

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Oct 2018 10:04 PM
I do have a feeling in the back of my mind they don't understand how cool everyone would be with launching something soon and clearly state it is a work in progress and patches will come, I mean that is what it will be anyway as far as we all know, always patches needed. The server has been mostly great besides like the daily LD's and reboots, they had a great server setting that was clearly popular and many would play even if they had to wait for some patches later. I just bought a new video game RDR2 and multiplayer isn't even out for like a month or two but we all know it is coming and it is very popular, there is stuff to do in the mean time and everyone is happy.

Sadly, this just isn't true, people would NOT be cool with releasing something that was full of flaws and needed patching. Free product or not, if you launch like that people will walk away. The origins server had great promise, but was completely wrecked by a bad launch that was not stable, it was essentially over before it even got going. Never underestimate people's expectations from a free product.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 6:35 PM by gallaraider

The biggest challenge I see the server having is the server cap, I am interested in seeing how that will be handled. It was the biggest problem in the beginning for Uthgard and Origins.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 9:15 PM by Thinal

Ninefingers wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Oct 2018 5:31 PM
Sadly, this just isn't true, people would NOT be cool with releasing something that was full of flaws and needed patching.

I can certainly see your point here, but many of the more vexing bugs in this category were well-known before i50 and certainly didn't need the added pressure of i50 to get them fixed. I had pretty much presumed that those bugs had already been glossed over with the presumption that there are workarounds that will suffice until they are maybe someday possibly fixed.

We don't want an unplayably buggy product, but we don't expect perfection, either. Don't let Perfect be the enemy of Good. The game as it stands is missing some key mechanics, but the ones that exist, buggy as some are, are largely playable.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 9:48 PM by vadox

The more stuff you introduce now, the more potential bugs you'll find when server goes live. Things like caravans and multitude of tasks and options are not needed now and can be put in later if there is a need for it. Making the server - a theme park at the get-go is not the way to go.

You have one server with stubborn to the bone team that created a torture park because they played the game 20 years ago and have nostalgia that overrides current demographics' needs to sustain population and on the other hand, here, a theme-park is being assembled with lollipops and almost i50 and feathers and skins and who knows what.

The right way is a balance at first and then introduction of new material to sustain/gain population.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 11:23 PM by relvinian

The game mechanics are just mechanics.

What we need to do is tell better stories. People are meta gaming. But there will be some who immerse themselves and tell stories. And more players will change the paradigm. Many people will do things which do not fit what has happened so far and entire new worlds of possibilities will open up.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 11:32 PM by Ganaka

My biggest fear is that they begin the server with XP and RP "exploits" in place that allow people to boat race to high RR and camp the portal keeps preventing people from leveling in the frontier.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 12:15 AM by defiasbandit

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Oct 2018 11:23 PM
The game mechanics are just mechanics.

What we need to do is tell better stories. People are meta gaming. But there will be some who immerse themselves and tell stories. And more players will change the paradigm. Many people will do things which do not fit what has happened so far and entire new worlds of possibilities will open up.

I never get tired of Revilian and storytelling.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 7:07 AM by Muschen

This is so true, i played more when didnt know how 50 rvr really was. I lvled 4 toons from 40-50 just to switch at 50 thinking the next character would be more fun. Now i have tried so many and none are really that fun for a casual soloist, atleast if MOC isnt up. I have realized that this game isnt really for me and how i like to play. I will probably try to solo a character to 50 at launch anyway because im stupid, and if i get to 50 i will have to get a template somehow. But with this xp nerf i will get bored before i get there for sure. Anyone up for Thidranki brawl?

Mon 29 Oct 2018 2:08 PM by inoeth

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 8:29 PM
i50 exposes a lot of the failures of DAOC. Lack of speed, 8 player group size, no end goal or purpose to RvR.

Which is why you create a win condition. So there is a winning realm. Have seasons. Have resets. Have a system that is constantly rewarding its playerbase. Have a system with defined objectives and zones and player progression.

DAOC does little to none of these things. Just endless running in circles around Emain farming RP. It has been this way for over 15 years.

no reason to rvr? lol that the most stupid thing i ever heard about daoc, have ou actually ever played daoc before? is rr10 no goal? why did mythic even expand that to rr14?

Mon 29 Oct 2018 2:42 PM by romulus

Muschen wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 7:07 AM
Anyone up for Thidranki brawl?

BGs are dead atm. I got a few guildies to run Thid, Aber, and Cale and capture the keeps, but we never saw a single enemy realmer. When I heard that i50 was going to enable /level X, I was sure that the BGs would pick up again once the Emain bloodbath subsided. So far, that hasn't happened.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 1:04 PM by Gnarrg

A lot of good points on here, and I agree with the "emperor with no clothes" notion. Ultimately after you've leveled your char to 50, templated, ran your rounds in Emain getting to RR5 or whatever you think you "need" for your character to be viable... there is nothing much to do, nothing to surprise you, no content to look forward to.
i50 illustrates that point really well, you can just create your favorite char and test how it would be to have him at 5l8.

I love many aspects of this server, and the devs have done a great job. What I think we need in late-game are events that create elements of chaos that form a really strong motivation for players to participate and attempt something, even if most fail. This can be implemented months after the server goes live, but it should be the main focus of devs and the community at large at some point. Not a static, predictable, boring 8v8 server but alive with ever more changes coming.

One solution to this could be events: Not just slight re balancing events that give Realm X an advantage, or you have to capture a keep, these are ultimately meaningless. Really crazy, creative events that let you experience the game in a completely new way. Let's just imagine the following:

Event TOTAL WAR: For some reason (insert RP story here) all the border guards are severely weakened, their level has been reduced to lvl60. You can now attack and take down doors, and raid the enemy core zones for 1-2 days. Border guards spawn at the capital and run back to the border keep every 15 minutes or so, so the keep can never be taken, just temporarily overrun.

Event REALM TRAITOR: There could be a really difficult challenge where you can become a traitor to your realm and transfer your character to another realm. No trainers, weapons or anything are available to you, but you will respawn in your new realm and fight alongside Hibs/Mids/Albs. This should obviously be limited to very few people and come with disadvantages, but it could be something really fun for hardcore players.

Event MAGIC WINDS For some reason (insert RP story here) the winds of magic are really strong for 1-2 days, and all casters can charm a number of mobs to support them in the frontier zones. Or all characters with high empathy/piety have stealth detection for a while.

Now these are just some crazy ideas, but I think having new content every once in a while that people really look forward to can be a strong incentive to stay engaged. Anything that doesn't change is dead, and I really hope Phoenix doesn't go down that path.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 2:10 PM by poisonclover

i50 free rr6 free raid weapons free templates... are just getting classes nerfed or things added to the game to just make them unplayable. ( stealth lore)

I love more then anything that people are pooling and trying to get things nerfed never once logging them on or understanding how to play them or even what the downside to playing them is.

i50 needs to end, It has stopped me from testing and playing all different classes because its not going to get anything fixed its just going to appease the few over the masses.

This server has such high hopes and the more patch notes I see and read the more of a turn off it becomes. because the things that need addressing are just skipped over or not even talked about.

DO NOT ADD SPEED TO MORE CLASSES. ALBION IS THE ONLY REALM THAT HAS A SPEED CLASS THAT WOULD RATHER SOLO THEN GROUP. DONT PUNISH BARDS AND SKALDS. ( in hind site I believe this is the cause of all the devs vs stealthers and they will continue to side step and make it to where minstrels wont even bother with stealth just to try to fix this issue, nothing else makes sense of what is going on right now)

Hastener speed while is great in some instances, It really just Recycles people as fast as possible to the point where I was killing people at mmg and getting was killed recently messages. Its bad enough as it is having everyone running around with some kind of speed. now everyone gets to run around with speed and stealth lore. go figure.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 2:14 PM by poisonclover

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 2:08 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 8:29 PM
i50 exposes a lot of the failures of DAOC. Lack of speed, 8 player group size, no end goal or purpose to RvR.

Which is why you create a win condition. So there is a winning realm. Have seasons. Have resets. Have a system that is constantly rewarding its playerbase. Have a system with defined objectives and zones and player progression.

DAOC does little to none of these things. Just endless running in circles around Emain farming RP. It has been this way for over 15 years.

no reason to rvr? lol that the most stupid thing i ever heard about daoc, have ou actually ever played daoc before? is rr10 no goal? why did mythic even expand that to rr14?

I don't think he's ever achieved rr5. I've played with him, I've killed him and I've observed him. And I've listened to him in /advice for hours.
Clueless...

Daoc Does not need seasons, Daoc does not need resets. It needs people to remember what the game was and is about. And play that or don't.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 7:57 PM by defiasbandit

poisonclover wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 2:14 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 2:08 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 8:29 PM
i50 exposes a lot of the failures of DAOC. Lack of speed, 8 player group size, no end goal or purpose to RvR.

Which is why you create a win condition. So there is a winning realm. Have seasons. Have resets. Have a system that is constantly rewarding its playerbase. Have a system with defined objectives and zones and player progression.

DAOC does little to none of these things. Just endless running in circles around Emain farming RP. It has been this way for over 15 years.

no reason to rvr? lol that the most stupid thing i ever heard about daoc, have ou actually ever played daoc before? is rr10 no goal? why did mythic even expand that to rr14?

I don't think he's ever achieved rr5. I've played with him, I've killed him and I've observed him. And I've listened to him in /advice for hours.
Clueless...

Daoc Does not need seasons, Daoc does not need resets. It needs people to remember what the game was and is about. And play that or don't.

What is the game about? It is about taking keeps and relics while PvPing against enemy realms, not camping Emain MMG in stealth.

If you want to play on a Classic server and farm low RR players on a high RR stealther then try Uthgard. I hear the population is thriving.

This is Phoenix where the goal is to imrpove on th3 original DAOC in order to create a stable long term server.

Emain Battleground with 8 mans circling the zone slaughtering lesser numbers, while overtuned Assassins kill strays running along the road. That is not what we need.

P.S. I reached RR5 before i50 arrived.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 9:32 PM by Takii

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 7:57 PM
This is Phoenix where the goal is to imrpove on th3 original DAOC in order to create a stable long term server.

The problem is your definition of "improve" is vastly different than many people's, and involves changes to core aspects of the game that many people interested in this server do not want to see changed, because they are a large part of the reason why they're interested in Phoenix rather than Live.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 10:06 PM by defiasbandit

Takii wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 9:32 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 7:57 PM
This is Phoenix where the goal is to imrpove on th3 original DAOC in order to create a stable long term server.

The problem is your definition of "improve" is vastly different than many people's, and involves changes to core aspects of the game that many people interested in this server do not want to see changed, because they are a large part of the reason why they're interested in Phoenix rather than Live.

What changes?

Fighting over keeps? That was the purpose of the game.

You said it yourself DAOC RvR is a shallow RP farm. That is why you started this thread. The point of this server is to not duplicate the same mistakes other DAOC classic shards have made.

What does ending i50 solve? I50 provides a glimpse of Mythic's failure with Classic daoc.

We going to pretend that 1/3 of the server population was playing stealthers with full temps and raid weapons back during SI?

Tue 30 Oct 2018 11:34 PM by Cadebrennus

Broadsword's current failure with live is sweeping changes (nerfs, buffs, etc) in order to benefit an inner circle of players and developers at the expense of most of the playerbase.

Let's hope that the Phoenix developers do not walk down that same doomed road.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 12:34 AM by Cramit845

A lot of great discussion in here.

Honestly, I have gotten bored of the i50 so far as well. However, I do enjoy pve and rvr, so not really having 1 without the other makes it hard for me, admittedly. However, I do think that i50 does show case the issues many folks of the community have with the game, not necessarily the game has. The game was made to be played over a long period of time as mentioned before. It wasn't designed to be blasted through to get to the end game and sit there.

However, with a freeshard that will go on seemingly forever, something must be done. I think its either got to be custom content or custom mechanics to find that sweet spot but the devs certainly need to find a balance to keep as many people playing as possible. Once the people go, the server stagnates into nothingness. How much custom content/mechanics is right? Some folks come for 1.65, some for pvp, crafting, rvr and a whole host of other reasons.

How do we satisfy the greatest amount of players?

I have no clue. I know Im in the minority with my view points but even among the heavy RvR folks it doesn't seem to be very cut and dry. I think the devs should focus on getting the bugs knocked out and worry about the end-game moving on till later. I get the devs want to play and I hope they are able to do that in a ethical way. We shall see, but I think right now, focus on the bugs and if that means needing the community to assist, then direct the community.

What do I mean by direct the community?

Schedule tests. Require all users logged on to participate otherwise they get logged off. Would this be unpopular? Probably. However the folks that do want to help, and i would imagine most would if it meant a release date being announced sooner, would be there to do what needs to be done.

I would just suggest that the devs take a moment when considering what custom content/mechanics to implement and why. Sure having teleporters every where is handy but does it add anything or just water it down? That's just an example and one I would imagine most of the community would want to stay but I think it gets a bit murkier when you get to other mechanics like end game pvp/rvr.

I realize watering down pve to almost live levels makes folks happy cause they get to rvr/pvp sooner but is that better for the game or worse if they just get bored and leave? I don't have any answers but I hope these are things considered by the devs as well as players when discussing this.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 3:09 AM by kmark101

Cramit845 wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Oct 2018 12:34 AM
I realize watering down pve to almost live levels makes folks happy cause they get to rvr/pvp sooner but is that better for the game or worse if they just get bored and leave? I don't have any answers but I hope these are things considered by the devs as well as players when discussing this.

I'm sure there is a sweet spot between getting to max level in a day and grinding mindlessly for 3 months.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 3:11 PM by poisonclover

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 7:57 PM
poisonclover wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 2:14 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 2:08 PM
no reason to rvr? lol that the most stupid thing i ever heard about daoc, have ou actually ever played daoc before? is rr10 no goal? why did mythic even expand that to rr14?

I don't think he's ever achieved rr5. I've played with him, I've killed him and I've observed him. And I've listened to him in /advice for hours.
Clueless...

Daoc Does not need seasons, Daoc does not need resets. It needs people to remember what the game was and is about. And play that or don't.

What is the game about? It is about taking keeps and relics while PvPing against enemy realms, not camping Emain MMG in stealth.

If you want to play on a Classic server and farm low RR players on a high RR stealther then try Uthgard. I hear the population is thriving.

This is Phoenix where the goal is to imrpove on th3 original DAOC in order to create a stable long term server.

Emain Battleground with 8 mans circling the zone slaughtering lesser numbers, while overtuned Assassins kill strays running along the road. That is not what we need.

P.S. I reached RR5 before i50 arrived.

Now your back peddling, you have been pushing for DF being a stealthier playground which entails ganking low level and RR players, but Emain and milegates are all of the sudden an issue? lol..

Wed 31 Oct 2018 7:11 PM by relvinian

I think some questions are worth answering from the end of this i50

Today for example the same task in odins gate for 12 hours. It never advanced and people just played games in emain all day.

At some point the tasks need to advance on their own, in my opinion.

Also, task are now sort of worthless so nobody does them. But will that be the case on live

Whatever happens, I think devs need to be able to tweak all this stuff on the fly.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 7:50 PM by Dominus

i50 ends January 12, 2018.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 8:31 PM by Turtle006

Dominus wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Oct 2018 7:50 PM
i50 ends January 12, 2018.

To be pedantic, it will end sometime before then.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 8:36 PM by defiasbandit

Rest in peace i50 population.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 8:44 PM by Anaethema

OP got their wish. Now can you wish for me to win the lottery? Kthx!

Wed 31 Oct 2018 10:15 PM by Draygon

I agree i50 killed much if the fun of the server. It has driven more players away than it brought in, and most won't come back until the live release. The release date of live being after the new year is far to far away too. Something needs to be done between now and then or there will be no one left playing before live.

The beta was a great thing it fixed many many bugs but quite honestly the server is in a state that could easily be wiped and go live tomorrow and then could do weekly patches, like most games do these days.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 10:25 PM by relvinian

The devs said the reason they want to fix more stuff is because they want to play as well.

If they constantly fix stuff they can't play.

I don't think running around emain for 2 months will be fun.

Thu 1 Nov 2018 12:08 AM by Thinal

Dominus wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Oct 2018 7:50 PM
i50 ends January 12, 2018.

Release might begin then, but I'd say i50 is pretty dead already.

Mon 5 Nov 2018 1:22 PM by relvinian

i50 needs to end and server needs to be closed. WAY before Jan 12

Mon 5 Nov 2018 3:32 PM by Anaethema

I was hoping they would go live before Christmas break since most players will have quite a few days off for the holidays, but I guess they have more work to do than I thought.

Mon 5 Nov 2018 4:41 PM by Tydowen

relvinian wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Nov 2018 1:22 PM
i50 needs to end and server needs to be closed. WAY before Jan 12

I was hoping they would go live before Christmas break since most players will have quite a few days off for the holidays, but I guess they have more work to do than I thought.

I guess it's not gonna change anything but +1 to these. Better release early as the game is already fine.

Mon 5 Nov 2018 6:58 PM by Sysk

They wont release early due bro the fact they are still working on stuff.

I haven't seen any post saying hey guys we finished all the bugs reports.

Now if any they come out and say this they might just work on cleaning stuff up and it would release

Mon 5 Nov 2018 7:45 PM by Sepplord

Anaethema wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Nov 2018 3:32 PM
I was hoping they would go live before Christmas break since most players will have quite a few days off for the holidays, but I guess they have more work to do than I thought.

Me and my friends always have a traditional smallmen LAN party between cristmas and newyears eve... the news that the server will be down then is a little bit frustrating, but i believe they (devs/staff/etc) also want to have a holiday break....and i can understand that fully.