Minstrels - Phoenix Freeshard

Its finally time to acknowledge the imbalance inherited with the new Minstrel rework. Red pets are ludicrous. What other class in the entirety of DAOC can use their own pets to break CC on themselves? This class is entirely too much. Can we get a nerf down to maybe yellow pet max? Or even better yet, take back the pet patch all together. It's time to get an active conversation going on how to balance this class. They have literally everything, even stealth!

Sat 26 Jun 2021 11:06 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Amazeball wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Jun 2021 10:08 PM
What other class in the entirety of DAOC can use their own pets to break CC on themselves?

Mentalist.

Sat 26 Jun 2021 11:54 PM by jonny290

red pets mean high realm rank. you would have probably died with a yellow pet on you too

Sat 26 Jun 2021 11:57 PM by Amazeball

Jonny920, whether or not I died is 100% not the point. But if you have to know, I didn't die.

So we as a community are 100% satisfied with minstrels and their current scheme? Maybe I'm the crazy one.

And Excretus... Yea we all worry about the solo Mentalist running around with speed 6, red pet, etc... Oh wait, no we don't

Sun 27 Jun 2021 12:29 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Amazeball wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Jun 2021 11:57 PM
And Excretus... Yea we all worry about the solo Mentalist running around with speed 6, red pet, etc... Oh wait, no we don't

That wasn't your question. Moving the goalposts is a bad way to try to make a point.

Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:12 AM by Amazeball

The goalposts remain the same. Minstrels are unbalanced. Though I may have been wrong in the fact that mentalists can break CC on themselves (which is broken in itself), it is in no way the same as minstrels doing so, mainly do to the minstrels' complete kit which prevents them from being killed easily (plate vs cloth, SoS, red pet, IP, etc). To even suggest minstrels should be able to break CC on themselves because another balanced class may be able to completely ignores the fact this is just one facet that makes a minstrels kit OP.

Sun 27 Jun 2021 6:31 AM by easytoremember

Minstrel shouldn't have a lv cap on what they can charm in the first place>>>
What they're able to charm ordinarily gets dictated by the difficulty of keeping the mob under control and how hard it bites them in the ass to be the one getting hit by it. They've already been deprived of purple pet and spamming charm. Yesterday it was dumb to think there needs to be a yellow pet limit, today it's dumb, and tomorrow it will still be dumb.

Sun 27 Jun 2021 7:05 AM by Adwaenyth

Minstrels already profit immensly from how the RNG on Phoenix works. The smoothed RNG values make it a lot easier to charm high level pets compared to live server since you get way fewer consecutive resists on the charm. That way it's also a lot easier to use the pet to free oneself from cc.

Add to that, that the flute mez mechanic is utterly broken by being a pulsing song (the only mez in DAoC that works that way) and that the charm is instant (Menta 3sec cast time) and costs no mana (small levels put a drain on menta higher levels on menta cost like crazy that renders them virtually unusable).

It's that subtle differences that make these abilities much stronger than those of other classes on Phoenix and much stronger than they were on live.

Sun 27 Jun 2021 7:26 AM by keen

Amazeball wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:12 AM
The goalposts remain the same. Minstrels are unbalanced. Though I may have been wrong in the fact that mentalists can break CC on themselves (which is broken in itself), it is in no way the same as minstrels doing so, mainly do to the minstrels' complete kit which prevents them from being killed easily (plate vs cloth, SoS, red pet, IP, etc). To even suggest minstrels should be able to break CC on themselves because another balanced class may be able to completely ignores the fact this is just one facet that makes a minstrels kit OP.

Menta charm is much better since it is not the nerfed version of phoenix but live behaviour.

Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:25 PM by Astaa

They are broken, everyone knows they are broken, but they remain broken.

That isn't going to change, for reasons.

Sun 27 Jun 2021 2:52 PM by gotwqqd

Just like the assassin players advocating for their class. No one wants to lose their op mechanics

Thu 1 Jul 2021 3:01 PM by warden50

I cannot agree more with you. Thank god I play on alb and I dont have to deal with this OP class. I remeber tho on hib during beta that I would litteraly die to the pet in a 1v1...

Fri 2 Jul 2021 5:26 AM by Furrow

I saw a mins rank 6 in DF with a red essence shredder as a pet.
Honestly this is clearly too much, this pet perma sprint and deal high damage (50% of my life use to kill the pet).
The worst is that once the pet is dead, the mins will find another one easily since it is an instant charm.

Outside of that you have a strong class with:
- decent defense with chain armor / IP / FA
- instant stun every 15s / almost instant mezz (since they can mezz while moving or use Moc)
- DD every 20sec / max speed / sos
- stealth and enough point to have decent weapon spec with best pet since red charm is only with 41 in instruments

This is by far the strongest solo class in ZF (Only in ZF thanks to the red pets)
I have no problem to lose vs skilled player, but the problem here is even a bad mins player is a serious threat.

And when we look in comparison at the similar pet class in Hib, mentalist need 3sec cast time to charm the pet, while for Mid, the hunter has 3sec as well and do not have access to the red charm spell.

I think the 3 class, mentalist / mins and hunter should be uniformed with:
- 3sec cast time to charm the pet
- access to the red pet but with 50 points in light magic/instruments/beastcraft
- make only specific pets available for each class in line with the realm background, such as hunter can only charm animals and insect, minstrel humanoid and mentalist plant and tree...

Fri 2 Jul 2021 6:16 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Furrow wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Jul 2021 5:26 AM
- stealth and enough point to have decent weapon spec withbest pet since red charm is only with 41 in instruments

If you don't know how the class works, please stop pretending you do.

Fri 2 Jul 2021 9:53 AM by Tommylad

Aw........did a Minstrel kill you? Oh dear, how sad, never mind. Mommy will stick a bandage over your wounded little pride and give you a cookie, All better now :-)

Fri 2 Jul 2021 10:07 AM by iridia

Furrow wrote: instant mezz (since they can mezz while moving or use Moc)

Furrow wrote: stealth and enough point to have decent weapon spec with best pet since red charm is only with 41 in instruments

This discussion is useless for all and misleading for new players that maybe are reading this disc to understand minstrels mechanics.
Furrow unfortunately you don't know what you're talking about.

Fri 2 Jul 2021 10:15 AM by Sepplord

Tommylad wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Jul 2021 9:53 AM
Aw........did a Minstrel kill you? Oh dear, how sad, never mind. Mommy will stick a bandage over your wounded little pride and give you a cookie, All better now :-)

You think you made them look like a crybaby, but all you are doing is distracting from that by being shifting the attention onto you.
And you are not looking good behaving like that

Fri 2 Jul 2021 11:35 AM by Tommylad

Somebody said "You think you made them look like a crybaby".............er .......don't need to make them lololol........and as for "shifting attention".......that is even funnier :-)

Fri 2 Jul 2021 12:32 PM by Furrow

iridia wrote:
Furrow wrote: instant mezz (since they can mezz while moving or use Moc)
Furrow wrote: stealth and enough point to have decent weapon spec with best pet since red charm is only with 41 in instruments
This discussion is useless for all and misleading for new players that maybe are reading this disc to understand minstrels mechanics.
Furrow unfortunately you don't know what you're talking about.

You are right I should say the best charm instead of best pet, sorry for that.
I did not play much my mins, since I do not have enough money to stuff him, but I am 35 stealth / 50 instrument / 27 weapons, that's why i said decent weapons spec...

Regarding instant mez yes it is not the case, but close to since you can mezz while moving and you have access to moc.

ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Furrow wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Jul 2021 5:26 AM
- stealth and enough point to have decent weapon spec withbest pet since red charm is only with 41 in instruments

If you don't know how the class works, please stop pretending you do.

I don't know well how the class works. My points of view is more from a Ranger.

Overall, what about the following idea? At the end a minstrel is here to make music to people. Sound more logic that he can charm only humanoid while hunter beast and mentalist tree and plants:
- 3sec cast time to charm the pet
- access to the red charm but with 50 points in light magic/instruments/beastcraft
- make only specific pets available for each class in line with the realm background, such as hunter can only charm animals and insect, minstrel humanoid and mentalist plant and tree...

Fri 2 Jul 2021 2:00 PM by evert

Furrow wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Jul 2021 12:32 PM
- access to the red charm but with 50 points in light magic/instruments/beastcraft

Big mentalist nerf, zero effect on minstrels

Fri 2 Jul 2021 5:49 PM by easytoremember

(Minstrel charm is not affected by Mastery of Focus. Minstrel charm resist rate depends entirely upon composite Instruments spec. 43+16 didn't give you purple pet much less red pet now. Threshold for purple pet was ~67)