Assassin Style Changes - Revert/Adjustment - Solo Play

Started 28 Jun 2021
by Reklewt
in Suggestions
Hi Everyone,

As always, thank you for all the work you do for the server. Here is my point of view:

The style changes bring some needed balance to 8v8 and other assorted group play, which I can appreciate. However, for Assassins, especially in the realm of solo play, I think the changes have serious consequences and I think a partial or full revert of those changes (just to Assassins) would benefit the solo community.

Essentially, the problem lies in homogenization. Before the changes, Slash Infiltrator and Thrust Infiltrator were so different it was like playing a different class almost. Slash was all about damage type and shredding through people, while Thrust was about thrifty use of 3 different stuns. Both were very competitive (take a look at Mcnasty's comparison video for proof). Shadowblades were similarly versatile. Shadowzerkers relied on a 2 part evade stun, which was difficult to land, but when it landed, they had a very good win condition (3-part AB chain), while Critblade spec had good defense bonuses and was a little less of a "race to zero health".

Additionally, more side-styles for more classes becomes an issue in solo play with the ping variance on this server. It was already frustrating to fight Valewalkers (the most prominent side stunners) because you can literally track them the whole way with mouselook and still get hit with a sidestun. This is a reality of playing DAoC. However, this is basically the meta with all assassins having a side stun now. I really think this will negatively affect solo play.

Overall, I think the real issue is that these classes are no longer unique, and therefore are less interesting to play. Playing a Shadowblade was very, very different from playing an Infiltrator or a Nightshade, etc. Now, they are all very similar, and this not only creates a less interesting play experience, it also doesn't result in more balance in my observation.

Additionally, I think the VW and Friar changes (side stun) cause some real issues in 1v1, for the aforementioned reasons regarding issues with ping variance with our playerbase.

Thank you for your time. I appreciate your attention on my post and hope that we can have a civil discussion regarding the future of these style changes for assassins.
Mon 28 Jun 2021 8:50 PM by Mcnasty
I completely agree. Ever since these changes assassins have all felt like mirror images of one another (especially if you are CS).

I have never been interested in playing a class that can run through someone who is sticking to me and easily get a side stun; I now feel like I would have to use this method to get the CS side stun off and then later in the fight attempt to get the 2 chain evade stun off. This of course is in the instance of a 1v1 where a perf/bs2 is not used as an opener, which is common in assassin vs assassin fights.

I have not done extensive testing on all of these changes, but I will say that since these changes went into effect I have never been so bored while playing my infiltrator. There is nothing dynamic about any spec I have attempted, and CS seems severely nerfed. If I am 50CS going against a 50CS shadowblade or nightshade, it feels like I am fighting a mirror image of myself. I believe the point of these style changes was to make classes more unique from one another, and I feel it has done the direct opposite.
Mon 28 Jun 2021 10:06 PM by Noashakra
I agree with you on everything, but just saying, the VW always had a side stun/back stun.
Mon 28 Jun 2021 10:32 PM by Reklewt
Noashakra wrote:
Mon 28 Jun 2021 10:06 PM
I agree with you on everything, but just saying, the VW always had a side stun/back stun.

Yeah, sorry I wasn't very clear. Friar gets an easier stun to land on the side chain now, since it's not on the backend of a 3-part chain, deep in the Staff line. VWs always had those stuns, but now they can spam it easier and don't have to rely on a 3-parter to maximize damage on those procs. That's what I meant to say but I didn't really elaborate.
Tue 29 Jun 2021 8:53 PM by Validric
It looks like this current style change could very well be the end of solo assassins. Reverting back to old assassin styles might not be possible seeing that it would change and influence the dynamics of other classes also. For assassins in general the fat lady might have sung. There will be a few hardcore sneaks staying on and adapting to the mediocre play styles available but I think the server is going to be in trouble when the sneak community thins out. We play an important part in the general well being and health of our different realms. I sincerely hope the Devs can find a solution. But ultimately, the second law of thermodynamics will prevail...
Wed 30 Jun 2021 12:42 AM by soremir
A decline in the assassin population might end up being the only silver lining to this style changes adventure. I can't imagine the trouble that will be generated from players actually being able to use the docks again.
Wed 30 Jun 2021 1:51 AM by Mcnasty
The fact that the changes havent been reverted after the huge amount of complaints about these moronic style changes is ridiculous.

Quit trying to reinvent the wheel, GMs. This server was great when it was labeled as 'Classic DAoC'. Gets worse and worse.
Wed 30 Jun 2021 2:31 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Mcnasty wrote:
Wed 30 Jun 2021 1:51 AM
The fact that the changes havent been reverted after the huge amount of complaints about these moronic style changes is ridiculous.

More people like it than not. Get over it.
Wed 30 Jun 2021 2:58 AM by Mcnasty
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Wed 30 Jun 2021 2:31 AM
Mcnasty wrote:
Wed 30 Jun 2021 1:51 AM
The fact that the changes havent been reverted after the huge amount of complaints about these moronic style changes is ridiculous.

More people like it than not. Get over it.

Are you referring to people who like the group class changes...or assassin changes...Haven't heard anything positive about changes that have been done to assassins myself.
Wed 30 Jun 2021 3:01 AM by Nephamael
completely agree. Ever since these changes assassins have all felt like mirror images of one another (especially if you are CS).

I have never been interested in playing a class that can run through someone who is sticking to me and easily get a side stun; I now feel like I would have to use this method to get the CS side stun off and then later in the fight attempt to get the 2 chain evade stun off. This of course is in the instance of a 1v1 where a perf/bs2 is not used as an opener, which is common in assassin vs assassin fights.

I have not done extensive testing on all of these changes, but I will say that since these changes went into effect I have never been so bored while playing my infiltrator. There is nothing dynamic about any spec I have attempted, and CS seems severely nerfed. If I am 50CS going against a 50CS shadowblade or nightshade, it feels like I am fighting a mirror image of myself. I believe the point of these style changes was to make classes more unique from one another, and I feel it has done the direct opposite.

In fact i only agree immensely on the sidestun opener part.
That one has to have the stun on the 2nd style (best for all classes), so we don't get into all solo content becoming:
Sidestyle, followup Frontal/Anytime spam, basically a 2 button game, the total boredom. (even before the ping unfairness issue)

For everything else i disagree. - I had immense fun when i played 50 CD on my nightshade, a spec that was never viable and i think it is a great idea to make many specs viable, like 50 pierce, Axe, etc.
I think all those options need to be tweaked A LOT - and when they are balanced we will have a much more diverse assassin vs assassin game than before.

( i also miss having more stun options (thrust infi), but i fear the DEVs don't want that to return.)
- If gruenesschaf stays true to his word they will attempt to have at least 2 EQUALLY VIABLE reactionary chains per class to choose from to add flavor and skill ceiling.
Wed 30 Jun 2021 5:58 AM by Sepplord
Validric wrote:
Tue 29 Jun 2021 8:53 PM
I think the server is going to be in trouble when the sneak community thins out. We play an important part in the general well being and health of our different realms

Could you elaborate on that?
I don't think that sins are "killing the server" neither, but what important part do they play for realm health?

And doesn't a lower amount of sins imporve the gameplay for the remaining sins too? With low amount of sins more people run to docks solo, and those that do aren't on their toes as much as they are now where the question mostly isn't "WILL i get attacked from stealth" but more "Where is the attack going to happen"
Wed 30 Jun 2021 7:57 AM by evert
Nephamael wrote:
Wed 30 Jun 2021 3:01 AM
I think all those options need to be tweaked A LOT - and when they are balanced we will have a much more diverse assassin vs assassin game than before.

- If gruenesschaf stays true to his word they will attempt to have at least 2 EQUALLY VIABLE reactionary chains per class to choose from to add flavor and skill ceiling.

I don’t want to be rude but this is 100% wishful thinking, there is absolutely nothing to suggest there are any further changes of this magnitude coming, or any changes at all given the response to feedback so far. If we are lucky we will get minor nerfs to the hybrids that need it at some point before the server is dead.
Wed 30 Jun 2021 8:05 AM by Astaa
Feedback is good, but it has to go both ways. We have heard virtually nothing since these changes were put in, the only change being an early reduction in VW proc damage on conflag when most hybrids are off the chart in both utility and straight up damage output and need to be sorted urgently.
Wed 30 Jun 2021 8:55 AM by Blitze
I guess like most of the assassins on here, I am less worried about the overall damage of a couple of styles and more worried about the full playstyle homogenisation that this style change has granted. One reason for this happening is that the specc defining styles not being preserved (e.g. anytime snare on Polearm, longduration snare on Thrust)

Examples:
1. All assassins across the board SB/NS/Inf seem to now have very similar specs (except the OP 50 pierce style).
2. The Friars melee playstyle was previously great anytime/meh positionals with great snares and poor stuns.... And the VW playstyle was poor anytime/great positionals with poor snares and great stuns... Friars have been homogenized into VWs.
Thu 1 Jul 2021 2:34 AM by Nephamael
I don’t want to be rude but this is 100% wishful thinking, there is absolutely nothing to suggest there are any further changes of this magnitude coming, or any changes at all given the response to feedback so far. If we are lucky we will get minor nerfs to the hybrids that need it at some point before the server is dead.

I do agree, that there is an urgency in tuning up and down some outstanding styles, especially on +hit/+/-defense.

But lets face it, the Phoenix team is small and works very slow - they read a lot of feedback, but it often takes them many weeks to react. We will have to deal with balancing being a part of Phoenix for the nxt 3-6 months.
Sat 3 Jul 2021 6:12 PM by Reklewt
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Wed 30 Jun 2021 2:31 AM
Mcnasty wrote:
Wed 30 Jun 2021 1:51 AM
The fact that the changes havent been reverted after the huge amount of complaints about these moronic style changes is ridiculous.

More people like it than not. Get over it.

Maybe for group play these changes have benefits. For solo play, not only with assassins but with everything else, it is very imbalanced. Fights that used to be close are a blowout. Not to mention it's just not interesting because classes have been stripped of their signature styles, such as AB or dragonfang.

I've hit the point where I'm just not interested in investing more time in Phoenix. Unless there's a revert, I will plan to see y'all on the next server, and I can't wait for that day.
Sat 3 Jul 2021 6:17 PM by Reklewt
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 30 Jun 2021 5:58 AM
Validric wrote:
Tue 29 Jun 2021 8:53 PM
I think the server is going to be in trouble when the sneak community thins out. We play an important part in the general well being and health of our different realms

Could you elaborate on that?
I don't think that sins are "killing the server" neither, but what important part do they play for realm health?

And doesn't a lower amount of sins imporve the gameplay for the remaining sins too? With low amount of sins more people run to docks solo, and those that do aren't on their toes as much as they are now where the question mostly isn't "WILL i get attacked from stealth" but more "Where is the attack going to happen"

There are a lot of issues with solo play on this server. Most glaring is New Frontiers, in my opinion. Soloers are funneled to docks and bridges, cause that's the only place you're guarantee to find solos in transit, and those places are extremely dangerous and you get run over at least 5 times out of 10.

Solos are part of a food chain. If a predator kills off its food chain, it dies as well.

The problem here lies in that basically, assassins were once able to deal with the frustrations of soloing, because DAoC stealthers have a one-of-a-kind playstyle that you can't find anywhere else. But with stealth lore pots and changes that completely alter the way you play your character, there's a point where it's just not worth it anymore (imo).
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