Melee Mechanic Changes

Started 10 Jun 2021
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes

Either shortly before or together with the release of the new style baseline (ETA early next week) a few changes to general melee mechanics will happen:

  • thane damage table values for non-hammer weapons will be increased by 1 to match the hammer level, this is the only class with a "built in" weapon line preference like that
  • the side arc will be reduced
  • melee range will be changed from a 3 tier system to a 2 tier system
  • stealth style range bonus will removed

Side Arc details:

Patch 1.62 reduced the back arc from 90° to 60° and increased the side arc from 90° to 105°, this change will revert the side arc to 90° and increase the front arc to 120°. That means we will end up with:

Position Before After
Front 90° 120°
Side (Left) 105° 90°
Back 60° 60°
Side (Right) 105° 90°

Melee Range Details:

Right now there are 3 different ranges

  1. Neither attacker nor target are moving, this results in the base attack range, 128 locs total
  2. Attacker OR target are moving, this results in a small range bonus, 32 locs, 160 locs total
  3. Attacker AND target are moving, this results in an sizable range bonus, 96 locs, 224 locs total

The third case will be removed, meaning if either or both are moving a small range bonus, 48 locs, will be in effect, 176 locs total.

Additionally, the current bonus range for stealth styles will be removed. Every PA / Backstab that was accompanied by a "target too far away" message for the offhand was an example where the stealth style bonus range allowed the style to hit, this bonus was 32 locs.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:17 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Am I reading this wrong, or do the range calculation changes mean melee is being nerfed? Kiting just got a whole lot easier, regardless.
Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:18 PM by gruenesschaf
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:17 PM
Am I reading this wrong, or do the range calculation changes mean melee is being nerfed? Kiting just got a whole lot easier, regardless.

Technically yes, in practice however it kind of just reduces the "wtf he hit me from a million miles away" moments.
Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:29 PM by Nephamael
I agree with all of this.

The only thing i am worried about is the range reduction on stealth openers, that might actually hurt assassins with high ping/lag and might have to be reverted.

On the side arc i think it might even be useful to reduce it further, but after some live testing
Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:34 PM by Astaa
Knee jerk reaction is that I'm not keen on the rear range reduction, will have to see it in practice though. Everything else sounds good.
Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:55 PM by bculpepper
I think side-arc reduction and rear reduction are good.

Playing a shadowblade in the US I can tell you its going to make it very difficult if you reduce the stealth range for openers. What I do now in order to land a backstab is let a target run through and /stick as they do. I have had MANY times the BS fail to land because even when they are in front of me on my screen and I am clearly directly behind the lag causes it to fail. So I have learned to /stick and make sure they get a little distance before I hit BS. Same goes for PA - I hit it very early on a target running toward me because on server side they may already be passed. This is amplified with anyone on speed (everybody running to a dock is on hastener speed)

I know its impossible for you see given your lag vs mine, but I would say maybe half of my stealth openers result in the 'target to far' on the offhand and if this change is going to make that opener not land at all... ugh. Very bad. I can't see the reasoning either... I can't say I have ever seen or heard anyone complain about this.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:15 AM by Sepplord
I like the changes to the arc's, especially with the stylechanges increasing the focus on positionals reworking the arcs is a good thing as both reworks go hand in hand

Range-nerf sounds hefty though...
You say it "just reduces the "wtf he hit me from a million miles away" moments" but aren't both targets moving most of the time? And in that situation it is a flat 22%-range nerf.
I fear there will just be more "wtf i can't hit them despite being close enough" moments instead.

But well, maybe with the style-rework kitegroups would be fucked and the 22% rangenerf for melee is important to keep both groupstyles viable.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 2:03 PM by gruenesschaf
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:15 AM
I like the changes to the arc's, especially with the stylechanges increasing the focus on positionals reworking the arcs is a good thing as both reworks go hand in hand

Range-nerf sounds hefty though...
You say it "just reduces the "wtf he hit me from a million miles away" moments" but aren't both targets moving most of the time? And in that situation it is a flat 22%-range nerf.
I fear there will just be more "wtf i can't hit them despite being close enough" moments instead.

But well, maybe with the style-rework kitegroups would be fucked and the 22% rangenerf for melee is important to keep both groupstyles viable.

If it turns out the 48 aren't enough it could be changed to 64, the most important aspect to remove the wtf feeling is to reduce the number of tiers, ideally there wouldn't be any and melee range would just be but with latency and everything, giving some leeway in case of movement seems to be a reasonable concept.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 2:13 PM by Noashakra
Let's see how it works. I don't see people complaining yet, proof that people don't complain for everything if it's reasonable
Sat 12 Jun 2021 2:30 AM by boridi
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jun 2021 2:13 PM
Let's see how it works. I don't see people complaining yet, proof that people don't complain for everything if it's reasonable

I don't like the stealth opener change
Sat 12 Jun 2021 6:02 AM by Reklewt
bculpepper wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:55 PM
I think side-arc reduction and rear reduction are good.

Playing a shadowblade in the US I can tell you its going to make it very difficult if you reduce the stealth range for openers. What I do now in order to land a backstab is let a target run through and /stick as they do. I have had MANY times the BS fail to land because even when they are in front of me on my screen and I am clearly directly behind the lag causes it to fail. So I have learned to /stick and make sure they get a little distance before I hit BS. Same goes for PA - I hit it very early on a target running toward me because on server side they may already be passed. This is amplified with anyone on speed (everybody running to a dock is on hastener speed)

I know its impossible for you see given your lag vs mine, but I would say maybe half of my stealth openers result in the 'target to far' on the offhand and if this change is going to make that opener not land at all... ugh. Very bad. I can't see the reasoning either... I can't say I have ever seen or heard anyone complain about this.

Agreed dude. Couldn't have said it better. Winning the opener battle is already hard enough on NA ping. This will make it rough.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 1:50 PM by Loko
The Arc changes seem like a very good idea.

For the melee ranges, the changes seem a bit drastic. How about considering keeping 3 ranges but narrowing the difference between 2 and 3. For example:
1) Neither attacker nor target are moving, this results in the base attack range, 128 locs total => unchanged
2) Attacker OR target are moving, this results in a small range bonus, 32 locs, 160 locs total => 48 locs, 176 total
3) Attacker AND target are moving, this results in an sizable range bonus, 96 locs, 224 locs total => 64 locs, 192 locs total

Why not just release those ahead of everything else? Doing too much in one big bang makes it hard to determine if positive/negative impacts are due to one change or another.

The change to the stealth ranges seem like a bad idea. What is the goal of this change? Is it just to nerf stealthers with bad ping or make them rely less on stealth openers in the CS line? Are people complaining about stealth attack ranges? This seems like an odd change, so it would be good to understand the reasoning behind it.
Sun 13 Jun 2021 11:05 AM by Siouxsie
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:06 PM
- the side arc will be reduced

Oh my.. all those annoying rangers doing side stun cheeze will have it so much harder.
Sun 13 Jun 2021 12:31 PM by Bry
Thank you on all points here. Especially the stealther range bonuses. There have been so many times a pa/bs has landed that has been entirely questionable. I have a clip of being PAd when the assassin was completely at a side and out of melee range. Makes sense now seeing the secret bonus range they have.
Sun 13 Jun 2021 7:13 PM by Irkeno
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 13 Jun 2021 11:05 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:06 PM
- the side arc will be reduced

Oh my.. all those annoying rangers doing side stun cheeze will have it so much harder.

Promise not to cry when you still get sidestunned now? 😂
Wed 16 Jun 2021 4:01 PM by boridi
One vote for reverting the stealth opener nerf!
Thu 24 Jun 2021 4:10 AM by SgtGator
As others have stated, these need tweaked or reverted. This is basically a buff to all EU players. At no point should two assassins meet face to face, you hit PA and get "out of range" and auto atk that gets evaded and proceed to eat the PA instead.
Thu 24 Jun 2021 5:52 AM by easytoremember
SgtGator wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 4:10 AM
As others have stated, these need tweaked or reverted. This is basically a buff to all EU players. At no point should two assassins meet face to face, you hit PA and get "out of range" and auto atk that gets evaded and proceed to eat the PA instead.
I'm told latency has no consequence for being able to land styles get gud l2p dont cry
rest assured certified pros have reached consensus on the
matter
Thu 24 Jun 2021 6:00 AM by Noashakra
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 5:52 AM
SgtGator wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 4:10 AM
As others have stated, these need tweaked or reverted. This is basically a buff to all EU players. At no point should two assassins meet face to face, you hit PA and get "out of range" and auto atk that gets evaded and proceed to eat the PA instead.
I'm told latency has no consequence for being able to land styles get gud l2p dont cry
rest assured certified pros have reached consensus on the
matter

Battle to PA first =/= eat a PA and stick+slam lmao, keep your head in the sand, it's what you are good at...
In the first case, latency plays a big part for two players with the same relfex because one see the other first and can land the opener, in the second case, you have to react, not act first, and you have more than a second to do that (1.3s/1.4s at least) so latency isn't an issue.
So yeah, git gut! No excuse in the second case.
Thu 24 Jun 2021 5:22 PM by easytoremember
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 6:00 AM
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 5:52 AM
SgtGator wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 4:10 AM
As others have stated, these need tweaked or reverted. This is basically a buff to all EU players. At no point should two assassins meet face to face, you hit PA and get "out of range" and auto atk that gets evaded and proceed to eat the PA instead.
I'm told latency has no consequence for being able to land styles get gud l2p dont cry
rest assured certified pros have reached consensus on the
matter

Battle to PA first =/= eat a PA and stick+slam lmao, keep your head in the sand, it's what you are good at...
In the first case, latency plays a big part for two players with the same relfex because one see the other first and can land the opener, in the second case, you have to react, not act first, and you have more than a second to do that (1.3s/1.4s at least) so latency isn't an issue.
So yeah, git gut! No excuse in the second case.
Both are identical:
Style fails because the server decides you are out of melee range
Style fails because the server decides you are facing the wrong direction

You didn't even read the post I responded to btw
Thu 24 Jun 2021 7:43 PM by Noashakra
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 5:22 PM
Both are identical:
Style fails because the server decides you are out of melee range
Style fails because the server decides you are facing the wrong direction

You didn't even read the post I responded to btw

No it's not the same and I read the post. PA vs PA, the first one to land the PA forbids the other to PA. So latency is a big deal in this situation, because if two players with the same reaction time try to PA and press the key at the same time, latency will play a role in who will land the PA first.
PA vs Slam, even if you target is not in view at the start, there are 1.5 to 1.8s (depending on the swing speed) for you to stick/face + slam to avoid CD.
crap internet latency : 100ms, above that, it's close to unplayable and in that case you should not play
average human reaction time : 250ms
You still have more than one second to react to the PA and land your stun. If you can't, maybe gaming isn't for you.

So either you have bad reflexes, or you have an internet connection from the 90s, but in both cases, if you can't land a slam between a PA and a CD, it's your own fault and you should stop saying it's impossible to react to a PA.

proof :
https://ibb.co/3hqdCXj
I had the time to stick, land my style, prepare the next style and parried the CD, all of this in less than 1.5/1.7s (I don't know the swing speed of this guy).
Thu 24 Jun 2021 8:28 PM by WildWilbur
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 7:43 PM
PA vs PA, the first one to land the PA forbids the other to PA.

Well, no! I once met a rr4 NS on BB on my rr8 SB and we both hit our PAs. I saw his animation and the damage he did to me (a lot) but I had the better swing time (nearly cap) so my CD hit first. Was quiet hilarious to be honest...

And was the only time in all the years that that happened to me
Thu 24 Jun 2021 9:57 PM by easytoremember
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 7:43 PM
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 5:22 PM
Both are identical:
Style fails because the server decides you are out of melee range
Style fails because the server decides you are facing the wrong direction

You didn't even read the post I responded to btw
No it's not the same and I read the post. PA vs PA, the first one to land the PA forbids the other to PA. So latency is a big deal in this situation, because if two players with the same reaction time try to PA and press the key at the same time, latency will play a role in who will land the PA first.
PA vs Slam, even if you target is not in view at the start, there are 1.5 to 1.8s (depending on the swing speed) for you to stick/face + slam to avoid CD.
crap internet latency : 100ms, above that, it's close to unplayable and in that case you should not play
average human reaction time : 250ms.
You've clearly not read the post. The matter is range on PA/BS; you cannot use PA as early as normal because the server treats you as being too far from your target while the opponent with lower latency has already pressed his. The previous range prevented most instances of this because it nearly matched the range the stealthers see one another when moving. And in the same you cannot use slam as early as normal because the server has not accepted you've turned around. Both hinge upon latency.
This also introduces the increased likelihood of the high ping being slammed immediately upon PA because to get into the reduced range means longer time in front of the target.
Fri 25 Jun 2021 1:25 AM by boridi
Several instances in the event where I was /stuck to an enemy, style queued, but I get "too far away to attack" and swing unstyled instead. Big nerf for Americans
Fri 25 Jun 2021 6:35 AM by Noashakra
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 9:57 PM
You've clearly not read the post. The matter is range on PA/BS; you cannot use PA as early as normal because the server treats you as being too far from your target while the opponent with lower latency has already pressed his. The previous range prevented most instances of this because it nearly matched the range the stealthers see one another when moving. And in the same you cannot use slam as early as normal because the server has not accepted you've turned around. Both hinge upon latency.
This also introduces the increased likelihood of the high ping being slammed immediately upon PA because to get into the reduced range means longer time in front of the target.

It's exactly what I said slam is not the same as PA, you have 1.5s to stick, and slam in range. Also PA had a huge range bonus that slam never had.
Eullogie is slaming

Several instances
Yeah it might happen sometimes, but I was told it was IMPOSSIBLE to REACT, between PA and CD, and you don't even have the time to face to parry block, and then slam, which is factually a lie.

Example of someone reacting and slamming before a second swing who is also american :
https://youtu.be/r3vlPmmKrpw?t=998

Explain to me why Eullogie, who plays paladin and is an american, replied this when I asked him :
https://ibb.co/NWddLXs

it's time to look inward.
Fri 25 Jun 2021 7:48 AM by easytoremember
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jun 2021 6:35 AM
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 9:57 PM
You've clearly not read the post. The matter is range on PA/BS; you cannot use PA as early as normal because the server treats you as being too far from your target while the opponent with lower latency has already pressed his. The previous range prevented most instances of this because it nearly matched the range the stealthers see one another when moving. And in the same you cannot use slam as early as normal because the server has not accepted you've turned around. Both hinge upon latency.
This also introduces the increased likelihood of the high ping being slammed immediately upon PA because to get into the reduced range means longer time in front of the target.

It's exactly what I said slam is not the same as PA, you have 1.5s to stick, and slam in range. Also PA had a huge range bonus that slam never had.
Eullogie is slaming
They removed the range bonus, again read the post. You don't have to be stealthed to use slam

It must be nice living in a world where everybody has less or the same ping as you
Fri 25 Jun 2021 8:09 AM by Noashakra
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jun 2021 7:48 AM
They removed the range bonus, again read the post. You don't have to be stealthed to use slam

It must be nice living in a world where everybody has less or the same ping as you

25/06/21
https://ibb.co/NWddLXs
Deny is a hell of a thing

It's funny how the narative changed from "it's physicaly impossible to react, you don't have enough time" (even before the range change) to now "it's a latency issue" lamo (it's not otherwise Eullogie, living in the US, would have the same problem).
Fri 25 Jun 2021 10:15 AM by boridi
I wasn't talking about reacting after PA and before CD, which isn't the topic. I'm talking about the new melee range issues (topic of the thread)
Fri 25 Jun 2021 11:14 AM by Noashakra
boridi wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jun 2021 10:15 AM
I wasn't talking about reacting after PA and before CD, which isn't the topic. I'm talking about the new melee range issues (topic of the thread)

I know but some people don't undertand the difference between the two. If you tried to slam BEFORE the PA it would be an issue.
Fri 25 Jun 2021 4:36 PM by easytoremember
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jun 2021 8:09 AM
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jun 2021 7:48 AM
They removed the range bonus, again read the post. You don't have to be stealthed to use slam

It must be nice living in a world where everybody has less or the same ping as you
It's funny how the narative changed from "it's physicaly impossible to react, you don't have enough time" (even before the range change) to now "it's a latency issue" lamo (it's not otherwise Eullogie, living in the US, would have the same problem).
It's always been an issue of lag. Feel free to point out where I have ever said this made assassins overpowered. Thankfully every NA player has a Eullogie(tm) provider and this problem has been resolved. Thank you Eullogie. 'Murrican treasure.

Yet you still miss the point that the range reduction affects when high pinger is able to Pa compared to low pinger. Previously it was a large enough range that by the timer the lower is positioned to PA he is also in range on the high's screen. With the range reduction this more often not the case, hence:

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 5:52 AM
SgtGator wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 4:10 AM
As others have stated, these need tweaked or reverted. This is basically a buff to all EU players. At no point should two assassins meet face to face, you hit PA and get "out of range" and auto atk that gets evaded and proceed to eat the PA instead.
I'm told latency has no consequence for being able to land styles get gud l2p dont cry
rest assured certified pros have reached consensus on the
matter
It did suck for OH to be out of range on stealth opener but seems to be necessary to keep
Sat 26 Jun 2021 9:49 PM by boridi
https://streamable.com/nrzvb5

At 0:09, I am /stuck to the target and right on top of him. I have enough end to perform the queued style (since I was able to queue the styles and I'm not sprinting), but I get "not in view" and swing unstyled. I even scrolled up in the combat log since I was surprised.

At 0:21, I am still /stuck and right on top of him. Have evade styled queued with anytime backup. Again I have enough endurance since I can queue the styles and I'm not sprinting. I evade so I should perform the evade style. Get "not in view" again and swing unstyled. I'm scrolling back down in the combat log as it happens, but hopefully it's clear.

Had ~10 million rps on melee characters before the change to melee range, and never saw this happen unless lag was really bad. Happens frequently now.
Mon 28 Jun 2021 6:18 AM by Sepplord
if the message is "not in view" the issue doesn't come from the range reduction though does it?
Wouldn't that be an issue of "target is too far away" or something along those lines?

(sorry, haven't played melee in a long time, just trying to clarify)
Tue 29 Jun 2021 12:10 AM by boridi
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Jun 2021 6:18 AM
if the message is "not in view" the issue doesn't come from the range reduction though does it?
Wouldn't that be an issue of "target is too far away" or something along those lines?

(sorry, haven't played melee in a long time, just trying to clarify)

Maybe... but the target is clearly in view
Tue 29 Jun 2021 6:16 AM by Sepplord
yes, there is something odd going on there

maybe that dude was lagging, by chance or on purpose
Mon 12 Jul 2021 5:08 PM by Nephamael
After live testing and gathering feedback i suggest to give back round about 30% of the lost range to melees.

It was 2 far before, but it is 2 short now. Sometimes people you are stuck to and styling lag out of range at same movement speed, that should not happen.

1) Neither attacker nor target are moving, this results in the base attack range, 128 locs total
2) Attacker OR target are moving, this results in a small range bonus, 32 locs, 160 locs total
3) Attacker AND target are moving, this results in an sizable range bonus, 96 locs, 224 locs total

The third case will be removed, meaning if either or both are moving a small range bonus, 48 locs, will be in effect, 176 locs total.
Additionally the current bonus range for stealth styles will be removed, every PA / Backstab that also had a target too far away message for the offhand was an example where the stealth style bonus range allowed the style to hit, this bonus was 32 locs.

I think a range of somewhere between 190 and 200 should be optimal for moving targets.
Mon 12 Jul 2021 6:11 PM by Magesty
I’m inclined to agree with Nephamael. I’m not particularly mechanically gifted or well practiced and side styles seem just as easy to pull off as they were before. I went from not abusing side styles in a decade to being able pull them off pretty consistently in a matter of a few nights. Not sure the change did anything at all if a player of my caliber can do that.

The trade off is it’s nearly impossible to back snare fleeing opponents unless you are literally up their ass. I’ve had a couple of situations where I’ve been almost on top of an opponent and had to spam my back style button in the hopes that I’ll flicker into range at some point for it to trigger. Maybe that is an NA thing, but I doubt it.
Mon 12 Jul 2021 6:35 PM by Tulpa


Mon 12 Jul 2021 6:39 PM by Tulpa
both possitions are stationary here so movement is not an issue... this is the same /loc in both pictures just one unit of rotation difference mean i can't land a styled hit
Wed 14 Jul 2021 10:36 PM by Noashakra
Yes you can't counter peel people who are clearly in range. This need to be look into.
Wed 14 Jul 2021 11:16 PM by easytoremember
During the event there were a few times where I was stuck onto enemy running from me but I remained out of melee range anytime they were sprinting away. Even when they turned sharply, doing a full U in one case, I was unable to swing despite having been doing so up until the point they started running. Because I was sprinting to these targets prior it is not an issue of hitting sprint too late.
This topic is locked and you can't reply.

Return to Planned Changes or the latest topics