Change / Remove damage boost from lifetaps

Hello,

a few days ago, I posted something I considered a bug on the tracker: https://tracker.playphoenix.online/issues/75188862-2485-40e7-950e-f3bc27c04d93

It is about lifetaps doing much more damage than ordinary nukes. Considering the fast cast time of lifetaps (2.5 sec delve) vs slow cast times of spec nukes (2.8 sec delve), lifetaps do significantly more DPS than spec nukes. This leads to an odd situation where a body sorc would actually deal less damage if she used her spec nuke, so she is better off using her baseline lifetap instead, even if she went full body spec.

The response of gruenesschaf to my issue on the tracker was:

% return / 10 is added as damage % to lifetap."

Also, my issue was closed. I could understand this move if the goal was to emulate 1.65 perfectly, with all it's odds and glitches. However, I think this mechanic should still be changed, or even removed.

If I understood it correctly, this mechanic basically equals a permanent damage bonus for lifetaps. It would make sense (to some extent) if it was conditional on the fact that hitpoints actually have been transferred, so you would deal extra damage only if you have been missing hitpoints yourself and the lifetap actually stole hitpoints from your target. However, I had been nuking with full life on dummies, so there was definitely no life transferred during my experiments.

In general, spec nukes should always deal significantly more DPS than baseline nukes / lifetaps (considering same resistances). Anything else does not make sense. Hence, I think the lifetap damage boost should be removed entirely, and not even granted upon any special condition.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 5:26 PM by

gruenesschaf

Lifetap always had and even now on live still has this bonus to delve.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 6:06 PM by schreon

gruenesschaf wrote: Lifetap always had and even now on live still has this bonus to delve.

Okay. Is a change of that mechanic on Phoenix within the realms of possibility in the face of balancing issues, or is that out of the question?

Mon 29 Oct 2018 12:07 PM by Ombrix

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Oct 2018 5:26 PM
Lifetap always had and even now on live still has this bonus to delve.

They do, but the spec nuke value is increase btw 🙄

On live it’s definitly not possible to do more damage with a baseline nuke vs a spec nuke .

Mon 29 Oct 2018 12:12 PM by Thinal

Is this a sorcerer thing? Because my arboreal animists have always done far more damage with spec bombers than baseline lifetaps.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 12:18 PM by schreon

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 12:12 PM
Is this a sorcerer thing? Because my arboreal animists have always done far more damage with spec bombers than baseline lifetaps.

Keep in mind that the delve of Animist and Valewalker Lifetaps is much lower than the other lifetaps. Also, you may not compare the damage numbers directly. You have to divide them by the cast time. Lifetaps are much faster than spec nukes.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 1:03 PM by

gruenesschaf

You seem to forget that lifetap is considered a dual effect spell and hence has the higher resist rate.

Mon 29 Oct 2018 1:07 PM by

gruenesschaf

Ombrix wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 12:07 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Oct 2018 5:26 PM
Lifetap always had and even now on live still has this bonus to delve.

They do, but the spec nuke value is increase btw 🙄

On live it’s definitly not possible to do more damage with a baseline nuke vs a spec nuke .

It isn't possible here either to have higher per spell hits with a 179 delve lifetap than a 20x delve spec nuke but even on live sorc has higher dps with the lifetap than with the spec nuke if you ignore resists (full spell resists that is, not the damage reduction).

Mon 29 Oct 2018 8:32 PM by schreon

Okay, I did not pay attention to the resist rates, I am sorry.

At the dummy, the resist rate of the spec nuke is 10.00%, while the lifetap resist rate is 12.50%. Hence, according to my calculations assuming no cast speed bonus, the average DPS of the body sorc spec nuke is 157.5 considering resist rates, while that would be 155.4 for the baseline lifetap.

This still means that a baseline lifetap caster on Albion who specced something between 30-39 into body (depending on realm rank) does 98.7% of the damage per second as a body sorc who specced 45 into body.

This effectively is like giving every Albion body caster a free spec nuke.

This renders any other caster composition than body lifetappers on Albion inferior. Hence, the only thing you see currently apart from those setups currently is funny fire wizard groups with volcanic pillar. Also, Albion caster groups are way stronger than caster groups on the other realms, because each body caster nukes for spec line damage, plus they got superior pets and utility, plus they got superior range due to bolt range mezz and theurg pets.

I don't want to turn this thread into a "please nerf Albion caster groups" thing though. I just want to point out that Albion caster groups are already the strongest setup you can run currently, so discarding this insane lifetap mechanic should really be something to be considered. Even if things on live had been even worse (e.g. Ego told me on live the spec nukes with a level below 50 had awful resist rates. Here on Phoenix all spec nukes I tested had the same 10%, even the level 45 ones).

Mon 29 Oct 2018 9:12 PM by schreon

A small addition. Ego just tested Mentalist in RvR and got the same 12.5% resist rate versus a realm enemy (unlike the 10% versus the dummy). He sent me a screenshot:

If this remains as it is, the text above is partially invalid and lifetaps are still the best nukes in the game.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 4:15 AM by teiloh

Spec nukes are more mana efficient, body is the lowest tier resist, and slower/harder hitting casts do much more spike damage.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 7:25 AM by schreon

With spec nukes having lower level, they end up having the same resist rates versus RvR enemies as lifetaps (which are level 50 spells on Albion).

Tue 30 Oct 2018 3:47 PM by Zansobar

The SM spec lifetap is the one to focus on as it gets 9% more damage added to its base delve.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 4:03 PM by poisonclover

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 3:47 PM
The SM spec lifetap is the one to focus on as it gets 9% more damage added to its base delve.

Careful don't make to much sense in your posts. Seems to have the opposite effect.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 9:03 PM by schreon

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 3:47 PM
The SM spec lifetap is the one to focus on as it gets 9% more damage added to its base delve.

This is true.

However, at least the SM has to put a lot of points into Darkness in order to get the high level lifetap, unlike the Albion baseline lifetap.

The Hibernia Lifetaps are baseline too, but they are only level 45 (higher resist rates) and only do 164 delve, so those are quite weak in the first place and the lifetap bonus damage does not really matter.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 9:28 PM by Takii

You're asking to change core mechanics that have literally not changed in 17 years. Sorcs have always used lifetap for increased DPS at the cost of more power.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 7:12 AM by schreon

Takii wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 9:28 PM
You're asking to change core mechanics that have literally not changed in 17 years. Sorcs have always used lifetap for increased DPS at the cost of more power.

Yes, I am asking to change this. However, I consider it questionable to call every little detail in the game a "core mechanic".

You cannot re-balance a game without changing anything.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 11:28 AM by Takii

You also cannot rebalance a MMO with 45 classes on a forum. It takes weeks or months of actual live time before you can assess the impact of any balance changes. What you're complaining about here has never been a problem.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 8:11 PM by Dariussdars

schreon wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 9:12 PM
A small addition. Ego just tested Mentalist in RvR and got the same 12.5% resist rate versus a realm enemy (unlike the 10% versus the dummy). He sent me a screenshot:

If this remains as it is, the text above is partially invalid and lifetaps are still the best nukes in the game.

That nuke was obviously on someone with almost no resist, which isn't close to actual damage out in RvR.

Sat 3 Nov 2018 10:53 PM by Sepplord

I don't want to turn this thread into a "please nerf Albion caster groups" thing

that's exactly what you are doing though, or why would you suddenly start to mix boltrange mezz and theurg range into your arguments?
if you can't "outrange" a boltrange castmezz with speed6 and instant interrupts, or don't know what amnesia is, then you only undermine your credibility instead of strengthening your argument. If you want to start comparing overall "baseline" abilities, then we have a whole 'nother can of worms: baseline stuns for example, only 3 or 4 core classes for groupbuilding, etc....

realms are differnt. DEAL with it. That's DAoCs core.

That said, within the class of the sorc/kabba ofcourse specnukes shouldn't be completely useless....and they aren't

Lifetaps cost more mana/power compared to specnukes. They also frontload less damage.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 3:36 AM by Niix

What I hear here is buff sorc body spec nuke to 219 delve

Sun 3 Mar 2019 4:46 AM by Yint

schreon wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 9:12 PM
A small addition. Ego just tested Mentalist in RvR and got the same 12.5% resist rate versus a realm enemy (unlike the 10% versus the dummy). He sent me a screenshot:

If this remains as it is, the text above is partially invalid and lifetaps are still the best nukes in the game.

That is because mentalist spec nuke is level 45. With mastery of focus 2 it should be 10% resist rate.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 10:01 AM by Ceen

Menta spec nuke is not lvl 50 spell so what?
Guys if you didn't play live server or simple never cared about how daoc formulas work don't ask for custom changes.
It's all working as intended and on live it worked for years, probably because the forum mob had other topics to spread false information about.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 7:41 PM by Milchschnidde

a reduced mana cost for VW would be nice, since it is the only castable atack spell and you cant use a focus staff to reduce mana costs.