Change Vanish - Phoenix Freeshard

There isn't anything more frustrating than taking a PA, fighting an assassin 1v1, winning, and then they vanish after you use purge and/or IP. I also play a SB and recognize the benefits of Vanish. The ability to PA inside a keep and escape guards for a kill is a neat part of the game and forces everyone to stay on their toes.

My suggestion: Vanish is only available if you have taken damage from 2+ sources in the past 20 seconds OR there are 4+ enemies in a 2000 unit radius.

This should allow the PA/Vanish tactic if you are following the BG and picking off stragglers. It should also allow you to escape adds if needed. It will prevent you from escaping a fair fight though.

Thu 17 Jun 2021 3:44 PM by Astaa

It's certainly jam packed full of cheese. Especially when the sin chooses to fight the target 9/10 times. Don't jump me if you dont want to fight me, quite happy to have a hugathon instead

working out the class of the enemy should be important before you jump them.

But yeah, make it so that it only works if there are more than 1 attacker within 1000 units, or more than 1 attacker on the user.

Thu 17 Jun 2021 11:48 PM by Jingo NZ

My idea:

Count vanish as a "little death". Award 50% rps to enemy when they vanish and count it as a 0.5 death on the herald.

This keeps the functionality but improves the experience for other players.

You can still get out if jail, but not for free!

Sun 20 Jun 2021 2:48 AM by bculpepper

Seems like every fight is a vanish. I have an additional suggestion - easy to code and solves several problems.

EVERY assassin that vanishes with < 20% health is using side strafe to get away. From personal experience you move so slow in stealth at low health that you will sit right on top of your opponent if you don't side-strafe. Since side-strafe at low health is banned anyway... just dont allow it....

Vanish is unavailable if you are below 20% health.

Sun 20 Jun 2021 12:59 PM by BPICKEREL

Having played both a stealther and visible character, vanish needs to be addressed. Raise the RA point cost, raise the timer (every 45 minutes) , make it only work when two or more opponents are in the area.

Sun 20 Jun 2021 1:05 PM by Blitze

Fix side strafe!!! Please

Only allow vanish when outnumbered... it’s the most Toxic RA for 1v1s

Sun 20 Jun 2021 3:08 PM by Runental

Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jun 2021 3:44 PM
It's certainly jam packed full of cheese. Especially when the sin chooses to fight the target 9/10 times. Don't jump me if you dont want to fight me, quite happy to have a hugathon instead working out the class of the enemy should be important before you jump them.

But yeah, make it so that it only works if there are more than 1 attacker within 1000 units, or more than 1 attacker on the user.

This.
7/10 fights vs Sins i dumb all RAs just for nothing. Worst pussy RA ever.

Sun 20 Jun 2021 6:26 PM by Noashakra

"Let me idisease you without immunity and moc root, and please please please, let me kite you to death without you having any counterplay. I want my easy rps."

Always rich coming from someone using the most "pussy" combo of class and build of the game.

Sun 20 Jun 2021 6:59 PM by Runental

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Jun 2021 6:26 PM
"Let me idisease you without immunity and moc root, and please please please, let me kite you to death without you having any counterplay. I want my easy rps."

Always rich coming from someone using the most "pussy" combo of class and build of the game.

🤦‍♂️ This Clown. You can't be serious anymore. Please open your own personal kite class hate thread, because this here, is the wrong one.
Don't forget to mention any Elds, Cabs, Scouts (especially Watika ♥️) and the Dozens of FOTM Shamans out there 🤦‍♂️

Sun 20 Jun 2021 7:46 PM by goodthymes

I think a happy medium can be reached by: if the sneak initiate the fight and use vanish, a 15 second delay kicks in.

Mon 21 Jun 2021 7:01 AM by inoeth

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Jun 2021 6:26 PM
"Let me idisease you without immunity and moc root, and please please please, let me kite you to death without you having any counterplay. I want my easy rps."

Always rich coming from someone using the most "pussy" combo of class and build of the game.

lol dont attack shamans if you cant kill them... but jumping one, realize that you cant kill -> vanish

thats just dumb

ot: vanish needs to be changed, higher cost, longer recast, get rid of superstealth

since stealth grps are a thing on all realms and as a solo you run into them quite frequently, there is normally a good chance to kill at least one but those ppl just vanish and let their friends do the job... thats stupid.
on live servers vanish was useless vs stelathers because of mos but here you have a really good chance to escape.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 12:47 AM by Irkeno

Disease kiting in a 1v1 environment is a degenerate gameplay tactic that basically requires nothing except

Step 1: Cast Disease
Step 2: Win, slowly.

If the disease class loses to a class like a tank or something without speed, its pretty embarassing as its their fault, the tank has NO counter, its all on the disease caster to fuck it up.

Charge solved this on live, as did the teleport PA among other things.

But if you're on a shammy and Dump Purge, Ichor and maybe even moc, don't be upset when an assasin vanishes on you. its tit for tat at most.

There was a good post somewhere about vanish being only usable after securing a kill or if hit by multiple opponents or some mathematical formula of x opponents larger than 2x your grp size so 2 for a solo or 4 for a duo or something.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 5:52 AM by keen

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 12:47 AM
Disease kiting in a 1v1 environment is a degenerate gameplay tactic that basically requires nothing except

Step 1: Cast Disease
Step 2: Win, slowly.

If the disease class loses to a class like a tank or something without speed, its pretty embarassing as its their fault, the tank has NO counter, its all on the disease caster to fuck it up.

Charge solved this on live, as did the teleport PA among other things.

But if you're on a shammy and Dump Purge, Ichor and maybe even moc, don't be upset when an assasin vanishes on you. its tit for tat at most.

There was a good post somewhere about vanish being only usable after securing a kill or if hit by multiple opponents or some mathematical formula of x opponents larger than 2x your grp size so 2 for a solo or 4 for a duo or something.

Dude you are an assassin, you decide to attack him. You can stick him down with garotte... Then if it fails you call it dump and vanish. Assassin players at it's best...

Tue 22 Jun 2021 8:22 AM by Lollie

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 12:47 AM
But if you're on a shammy and Dump Purge, Ichor and maybe even moc,

I think this is why people get so annoyed with vanish, if/when people start popping thier RA's to combat the assassin then they are basically screwed for the next 10mins+ while they wait for cool downs, the sin is still basically combat ready after 30s

Tue 22 Jun 2021 8:45 AM by Ceen

Vanish should be taken out of the game just like PD for Archers was never implemented.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:47 AM by Tommylad

Wah wah wah somebody killed me......not fair not fair not fair.......take out vanish, take out stealth, take out mezz, take out stun, take out dots, take out speed, take out groups of archers, take out all archers, take out, take out, take out..... anybody that kills me ........wah wah wah.......

Tue 22 Jun 2021 10:19 AM by Blitze

Tommylad wrote: Wah wah wah somebody killed me......not fair not fair not fair.......take out vanish, take out stealth, take out mezz, take out stun, take out dots, take out speed, take out groups of archers, take out all archers, take out, take out, take out..... anybody that kills me ........wah wah wah.......

This is exactly the opposite of what vanish is about.
People aren't moaning that vanish is killing them, vanish doesn't kill anyone directly.
Vanish is a fight cancel mechanic which stops the fight deciding a winner or a loser.
After the fight is cancelled by the stealth, the lingering disease and all the 8mans that reroute at clip range to ravage all solos; cause the vanish deaths.

People are moaning about the fact that in addition to assassins attacking completely on their own terms, they also get a fight cancel mechanic when they are losing.
I whole heartedly believe Vanish is a toxic mechanic, like if you were a coach of a sports team and you had the ability to cancel the match if your team started to lose.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 10:22 AM by Irkeno

keen wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 5:52 AM
Irkeno wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 12:47 AM
Disease kiting in a 1v1 environment is a degenerate gameplay tactic that basically requires nothing except

Step 1: Cast Disease
Step 2: Win, slowly.

If the disease class loses to a class like a tank or something without speed, its pretty embarassing as its their fault, the tank has NO counter, its all on the disease caster to fuck it up.

Charge solved this on live, as did the teleport PA among other things.

But if you're on a shammy and Dump Purge, Ichor and maybe even moc, don't be upset when an assasin vanishes on you. its tit for tat at most.

There was a good post somewhere about vanish being only usable after securing a kill or if hit by multiple opponents or some mathematical formula of x opponents larger than 2x your grp size so 2 for a solo or 4 for a duo or something.
Dude you are an assassin, you decide to attack him. You can stick him down with garotte... Then if it fails you call it dump and vanish. Assassin players at it's best...

Im not an assassin. I’ve played them yes but they’re far from mains. But i understand that If I dump vs one im inviting vanish to frustrate myself. It comes down to timer management.

Use 1 RA, make them vanish or kill them, I honestly dont even see them vanish that often. You still have 1 or 2 RAs left if they pop u again, can u get unlucky and get vanished on by 2 diff sins, maybe. But then u got 2 15min timers for the cost of 2 probably 10min ones.

Honestly, a lot of the time when I get vanished on I’m dumpstering the assassin so hard anyway theyre either easy to find or I’ve used very little.

From the assassin pov, you know what, its pretty fucking fun to watch a champ use purge IP ST Woc brainlessly and then you just vanish. *im not a champ, just an example.

Dude you’re not good for dumping all that shit to win 1 fight, so…you dont get to win 👍. Cya.

Once you understand that mindset and challenge yourself to dump less, it becomes easier to manage them.

Buuuuut once again, I did also post that there was a good suggestion to change the mechanic slightly on vanish but there need to be so many conditions on it it becomes a nightmare.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 10:28 AM by Irkeno

Lollie wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 8:22 AM
Irkeno wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 12:47 AM
But if you're on a shammy and Dump Purge, Ichor and maybe even moc,

I think this is why people get so annoyed with vanish, if/when people start popping thier RA's to combat the assassin then they are basically screwed for the next 10mins+ while they wait for cool downs, the sin is still basically combat ready after 30s

Sorry that the powerful timered buttons you think should get you a win by pressing them all at once have a counter.

Try not dumping all your actives in one go for a while, see if people vanish less on your or youre able to combat it more by challenging yourself to play better and use less RAs in a fight.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 10:38 AM by Bradekes

How about vanish purges all the active negative effects that the one vanishing has active? All dots/debuffs/disease the vanisher has on targets are cleared after the super stealth ends to atleast give some negative to the ability. Seems fair.

Maybe add a HoT to any target that had a negative effect from the vanisher make it like ranger run speed meaning it will last full hot duration unless taking dmg/combat.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 11:21 AM by Lollie

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 10:28 AM
Lollie wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 8:22 AM
Irkeno wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 12:47 AM
But if you're on a shammy and Dump Purge, Ichor and maybe even moc,

I think this is why people get so annoyed with vanish, if/when people start popping thier RA's to combat the assassin then they are basically screwed for the next 10mins+ while they wait for cool downs, the sin is still basically combat ready after 30s

Sorry that the powerful timered buttons you think should get you a win by pressing them all at once have a counter.

Try not dumping all your actives in one go for a while, see if people vanish less on your or youre able to combat it more by challenging yourself to play better and use less RAs in a fight.

So out of curiosity, using the shaman example you brought up, what could it do differently other than burning it's RA's?

Tue 22 Jun 2021 12:25 PM by WildWilbur

Lollie wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 11:21 AM
So out of curiosity, using the shaman example you brought up, what could it do differently other than burning it's RA's?

Dieing with honor! *woooosh* (vanished)

Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:09 PM by bculpepper

My point is this. The health of the server depends on the food chain. This server really is the last stand for DAOC. If it dies where do you go? And its the communities responsibility to maintain health. Let's say I'm playing my SB and I kill a low RR assassin but they have DOTs on me that will kill me. I could vanish and clear the DOTs but I won't. I want the low RR to get some sense of reward so they keep playing and don't group up and ruin the fun. Rebuffing and coming back out for me is not that big a deal. People need to get over it for the sake of the community.

Food Chain: Visible Solo --> Duo/SmallMan --> PUG 8-man --> GVG 8-man

Visible solos are going to die a lot in this scenario and we accept that. Its par for the course. What will kill the server is when visible solos just quit trying. It will cascade down the food chain. The reason people play is to feel the sense of reward when doing well. I'm RR6 and I'm finally about to kill the RR11 assassin who jumped me and then they vanish. Or I'm facing a 2v1 and I might kill one but again, vanish.

Examples:

RR11 Lone Enforcer. Vanish to a RR6 Skald: https://youtu.be/DxUpLsBjAdc
RR11 + RR8 Duo. Infiltrator vanishes: https://youtu.be/e3fxHCu_Yrg
RR5 + RR4. Nightshade vanishes: https://youtu.be/EbLub_AqHao

On a good night I may find 3 fights in 2 hours that are fun/fair. The rest is just running around. Last night I just gave up after 1.5 hours of dying without any reward. It gets old and there is no reason for it frankly.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:43 PM by Blitze

Spot on

Wed 23 Jun 2021 12:13 AM by Irkeno

Lollie wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 11:21 AM
Irkeno wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 10:28 AM
Try not dumping all your actives in one go

So out of curiosity, using the shaman example you brought up, what could it do differently other than burning it's RA's?

1. Movement or use of terrain to gap yourself from your opponent + diseasefart

(Sin is unlikely to inc with snare poison first hit. Wscon mh disease oh most common and oh not guaranteed swing) this buys you a small window of time to react.

2. Sure pick an RA. Time purge right and you’ll escape the snare and cure the disease and potentially gap your opponent. Leaves u with moc and ichor still. Alts of just ichor and just moc work the same.

Blah blah multiple iterations of theory crafting possible that we can rabbit hole down picking flaws in each others logic that u need to go out and experiment with.

But if u just go and faceroll 3 active RAs, dont QQ when an assassin uses one back. Its a double standard. To be clear, I actually support some suggestions of changes to vanish, but this kind of behaviour actually doesnt help the cause.

Bculpepper = Srabar? Looks like its you 😊! i agree those situations are shitty as are the hunter/archer/scout zergs or grps that just roll smaller numbers, but unfortunately no amount of game engineering will fix the server toxicity given the rewards it offers for /task and the red is dead mentality, which is basically the root issue.

More and more people choosing not to log on because of it

Wed 23 Jun 2021 5:10 AM by keen

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jun 2021 12:13 AM
Lollie wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 11:21 AM
Irkeno wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 10:28 AM
Try not dumping all your actives in one go

So out of curiosity, using the shaman example you brought up, what could it do differently other than burning it's RA's?

2. Sure pick an RA. Time purge right and you’ll escape the snare and cure the disease and potentially gap your opponent. Leaves u with moc and ichor still. Alts of just ichor and just moc work the same.

Don't make it look like as if there is any chance to win as a sham without dropping your ras.
If you don't the sin just stickes you down with disease and garotte.
"Time purge right and you’ll escape the snare and cure the disease and potentially gap your opponent."
Just not possible Vs garotte + disease.

Wed 23 Jun 2021 6:10 AM by Astaa

bculpepper wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:09 PM
My point is this. The health of the server depends on the food chain. This server really is the last stand for DAOC. If it dies where do you go? And its the communities responsibility to maintain health. Let's say I'm playing my SB and I kill a low RR assassin but they have DOTs on me that will kill me. I could vanish and clear the DOTs but I won't. I want the low RR to get some sense of reward so they keep playing and don't group up and ruin the fun. Rebuffing and coming back out for me is not that big a deal. People need to get over it for the sake of the community.

Food Chain: Visible Solo --> Duo/SmallMan --> PUG 8-man --> GVG 8-man

Visible solos are going to die a lot in this scenario and we accept that. Its par for the course. What will kill the server is when visible solos just quit trying. It will cascade down the food chain. The reason people play is to feel the sense of reward when doing well. I'm RR6 and I'm finally about to kill the RR11 assassin who jumped me and then they vanish. Or I'm facing a 2v1 and I might kill one but again, vanish.

Examples:

RR11 Lone Enforcer. Vanish to a RR6 Skald: https://youtu.be/DxUpLsBjAdc
RR11 + RR8 Duo. Infiltrator vanishes: https://youtu.be/e3fxHCu_Yrg
RR5 + RR4. Nightshade vanishes: https://youtu.be/EbLub_AqHao

On a good night I may find 3 fights in 2 hours that are fun/fair. The rest is just running around. Last night I just gave up after 1.5 hours of dying without any reward. It gets old and there is no reason for it frankly.

For some reason, yesterday was particularly bad. I tried before work and got run over by a FG albs, when there was just 150 players in the frontier, then a duo. Went off to work annoyed with DAOC. Last night it was just endless groups/small mans/adders/vanishers, I had 1 single fight vs a friar in maybe 5 hours total gameplay. I don't care if I die so long as I get an entertaining fight. I even had an RR11 reaver/mincer duo attack me straight after an SB vanished, absolutely pathetic and to show how bad these players are, the reaver had to both purge and IP. I just don't get it.

People that play to add really ought to have a look at themselves. They take entertainment from spoiling other people's entertainment, at best it's selfish, at worst It's just plain toxicity.

But, there is nowhere to go to solo, so I either join the BG on something else, afk in a keep and watch a film or just go and play something else entirely. The latter becoming more and more.

I just don't understand the desperate scramble for RPs, I see them as a means to improve your character to make you more competitive and to give yourself more options, but what use are they if you are just going to play to outnumber your opponents anyway?

Edit. And no, 1v1 arena or bowtowns are not my thing. It's a nice touch that an arena is offered every now and again and it's good to see things being tried but that doesn't take away from the fact that on this server in particular, for the most part solo playstyle is just a deadend on anything but a stealther.

As the population dwindles it just gets worse and worse making more and more people just give up.

Wed 23 Jun 2021 9:05 PM by bculpepper

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 10:28 AM
Bculpepper = Srabar? Looks like its you 😊! i agree those situations are shitty as are the hunter/archer/scout zergs or grps that just roll smaller numbers, but unfortunately no amount of game engineering will fix the server toxicity given the rewards it offers for /task and the red is dead mentality, which is basically the root issue.

More and more people choosing not to log on because of it

Yep that's me. I agree on the points you and others have made about the server recently. I'm not even interested in 'fair' fights necessarily - just fun ones. 2v1 can be fun given the right circumstances. 8v1 is never fun - for either side really. I tried to play again today for an hour and had 0 fun fights. Its not the population numbers... its the actual population itself. The specific request to change vanish is to at least help in this regard. There are so many other things that are discouraging and outside of the admins control when you play solo that at least the server admins could solve one of the frustrations.

Thu 24 Jun 2021 12:40 AM by CowwoC

bculpepper wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jun 2021 9:05 PM
Its not the population numbers... its the actual population itself.

It's both. Because of the low population the people are even more thirsty for realm points.

I mean Phoenix never really was a paradise for solos, but the downfall is noticeable at the behavior of the people. No matter where you go as solo, you get shredded by all and everything and 1v1 only happens if people gather for the forbidden bow duel on dc here and then. But to be honest, flags - even tho it's a good rp income for solos at least - it made things worse imho, because the coast guarding mentality shifts to everything else.

Side note: The rp farming 1v1 zone was trash, but i understand that those remaining people are now mad about how the 8v8 pseudo elite gets treated with sugar and candy, even tho the gvg command and the 8v8 events are exactly the same - rp farming. So to me it seems reasonable that those solos now add on everything because otherwise they have nothing to do and fights are rare anyway with low population and zerging tower and keeps can be very dull all day long if one side is dominating hard.

So ya, it's frustrating when you have only the option to zerg surf, doing flags or to go to dc bridge where you'll find people for sure - even if it's just a bunch of archer. Either way, the server is more an add fest than ever. If the population is not magically rising or people break their habits, i guess we all have to deal with that - or stop playing the game.

Removing or changing vanish won't help, it's just fighting a symptom not the cause. A healthy server is needed.