Grouped Archery Nerf/Assist Nerf

We need to talk about the promenance of Archer groups assisting things down. Latching on to all all types of combat with devastating effects and very little counterplay.

It's a completely un-engaging playstyle with very little counterplay that detracts from all types of rvr experience that needs solving. It's causing frustrations from ruining GvG, exploiting in zergs making it feel like theres little point in siegeing a keep for example because of the archer issues (I appreciate you're already experimenting with LOS checks to combat this), or to smallman/solo play where 5 archers shooting you is a deathsentence, of course a full group is much the same but dodging 5/6 invisible people from adding your fight is far harder than hiding from a full group you can see coming.

It was previously mentioned that a 2nd test reducing 'group archery damage' or similar would be looked in to but it seems nothing has been done about it. Is it time to take a look at, because every realm now has 1, if not several very prominent groups doing this, not providing fun fights or enriching the gameplay experience, rather just making it irritating for many, causing many to quit, and generally increasing frustration at how much of a nonsense it is.

Thu 27 May 2021 4:37 PM by inoeth

return to the normal formulas prior all the changes, we didnt have that problem there.... that whole change was a mistake

Thu 27 May 2021 4:47 PM by Kwall0311

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 4:37 PM
return to the normal formulas prior all the changes, we didnt have that problem there.... that whole change was a mistake

This will accomplish nothing, that ship has sailed, the damage is already done. Even if they did less damage it would still be very effective. Targeting on a lurikeen model that is stacked inside multiple others is nearly impossible, especially when they have a rather massive range advantage from elevation. Just too rewarding of a playstyle. I dont think those groups are getting so many rps/deathblows a week because they are good players. They found and exploit to the game and its very effective.

Thu 27 May 2021 5:26 PM by Arkeon

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 4:30 PM
We need to talk about the promenance of Archer groups assisting things down. Latching on to all all types of combat with devastating effects and very little counterplay.

gt assist on can be a good start

Thu 27 May 2021 5:52 PM by inoeth

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 4:47 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 4:37 PM
return to the normal formulas prior all the changes, we didnt have that problem there.... that whole change was a mistake

This will accomplish nothing, that ship has sailed, the damage is already done. Even if they did less damage it would still be very effective. Targeting on a lurikeen model that is stacked inside multiple others is nearly impossible, especially when they have a rather massive range advantage from elevation. Just too rewarding of a playstyle. I dont think those groups are getting so many rps/deathblows a week because they are good players. They found and exploit to the game and its very effective.

well i said it from the beginning: archery is fine as it is, dont touch it. but nobody listened to me ;(

Thu 27 May 2021 7:21 PM by Jingo NZ

Suggestion:
After you are hit by an arrow, you are immune to further arrow damage for the next 1.0 second.

Thu 27 May 2021 8:40 PM by Nephamael

Isn't a 7 archer assist much weaker in dps than any 3 caster assist?

Sure the range is strong in zergfights but that's about it.

I'd recommend to give all melee characters climb walls instead to make keepfights more exciting and more balanced between ranged and melee characters.

Thu 27 May 2021 10:26 PM by Irkeno

Jingo NZ wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 7:21 PM
Suggestion:
After you are hit by an arrow, you are immune to further arrow damage for the next 1.0 second.

Almost to this extent. As Gruenes called it hib “blap” was nerfed by giving more hp etc because it was a problem. I think nerfing this blap ability from archers would be good too.

If target is not being attacked dmg increased to encourage solo viability but stacking arrow or arrows in to combat miss/do minimal damage.

Fri 28 May 2021 12:06 AM by gotwqqd

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 8:40 PM
Isn't a 7 archer assist much weaker in dps than any 3 caster assist?

Sure the range is strong in zergfights but that's about it.

I'd recommend to give all melee characters climb walls instead to make keepfights more exciting and more balanced between ranged and melee characters.

Stealth….

I’d be all for some timed immunity. As long as my solo archer damage is increased to some reasonable level and can’t give immunity to own shots

Fri 28 May 2021 12:55 AM by daytonchambers

7 players assisting on one target should kill that target. The melee gank bus does it, caster debuff trains do it. Constantly.

Never have I been run over by a FG and said " well, at least they weren't archers, cause that would be unfair!" My toon is still just as dead.

P.S. 7 archers vs a group of 7 and the archers will lose ten times out of ten.

Fri 28 May 2021 6:32 AM by Astaa

The problem is at keeps, the answer is to give heavy tanks some sort of aoe group buff that blocks, or partially blocks arrows for other group members, which would encourage better group play and give heavies more to do at keeps other than sit in a ram.

People would still run around like headless chickens, out of healer/tank range etc but these would be the typical fodder that dies all the time anyway.

And to be fair, tanks already have the ability to stop interrupts from GTAOE but nobody takes them

Fri 28 May 2021 9:09 AM by Irkeno

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 12:55 AM
P.S. 7 archers vs a group of 7 and the archers will lose ten times out of ten.

Exactly but they just stealth and avoid a group like that and pick on lesser numbers. Not even hitting a 5man until that 5man is in combat. Causing people to stop playing because there is no counter to 7 archers adding and very little way to prevent it.

Fri 28 May 2021 9:13 AM by Ceen

Let's talk about the source of those huntards, the leveling the playing field event.
Just prohibit stealthers inside the playing field event or the situation will become worse and worse.
Second step make MoS work like it is supposed to be as I said since beta.
Third step delete all stealthers created in previous events.

Fri 28 May 2021 10:08 AM by Tommylad

LOL......The anti-archer Phoenix Whinery still goin strong. Just grow a pair and go hunt down the archers. Mommy can always put a bandage on your little soldier wounds.

Fri 28 May 2021 11:11 AM by Babajaga

Wtb more archers adding groups.
It's still the easiest class to counter around. Complainers are lmao

Fri 28 May 2021 11:56 AM by Ceen

Tommylad wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 10:08 AM
LOL......The anti-archer Phoenix Whinery still goin strong. Just grow a pair and go hunt down the archers. Mommy can always put a bandage on your little soldier wounds.

Give us MoS and we will be happy to do so.

Fri 28 May 2021 12:03 PM by Sepplord

Personally archers aren't a huge issue for me when i play and i can't really gauge how much of an issue it really is.

That said though, i really can't understand a few comments:

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 12:55 AM
Never have I been run over by a FG and said " well, at least they weren't archers, cause that would be unfair!" My toon is still just as dead.

Next time you manage to run away from a fullgroup, consider if that had been possible if they were invisible.

Tommylad wrote: Just grow a pair and go hunt down the archers.

Would love to do that. I'll just invite someone with truesight and flush out their camping spot....oh wait wrong RA-patch. Okay, got it now, i'll invite a MOS9 stealther and flush out their camping spot... ... ...

Nephamael wrote: Isn't a 7 archer assist much weaker in dps than any 3 caster assist?

I am sure, if casters were invisible and only unstealthed after damage has been done, there would be similar complaints.

Imo, the main problem is stealth and how it works in DAoC. It has always been a very controversial issue, and i defended it for quite a bit myself, because it isn't an issue in solo stealthplay. The ability to "blap" someone from invisibility is just bad gamedesign. And there is no actual counterplay to that. There is counterplay against it having an impact on a whole siege, but that doesn't help the person dead on the floor out of nowhere much.

I am also not a fan of dmg immunity, because when to archers happen to shoot the same target by pure chance, then why would their dmg be reduced? And imo the issue isn't the damage the issue is stealth.

Random ideas that plopped into my mind, that could reduce the issue of insta-blap from stealth, while not impacting solo/duo archers out in the open:
How about increasing the unstealth chance when you knock an arrow, depending on people in group and/or people in close vicinity and/or location (keep/tower/bridge/open field)

That would still leave archers with an advantage vs casters (they can still position and target people in stealth), but it would open them up to being ruppted/CCed while they aim (similar to a caster that is casting)

Fri 28 May 2021 12:40 PM by Noleran

Archers need very sticky assist and that hits hard on any flexible on them in zergfights. Any assist in the game is extrem strong, that is the key. And not only in daoc.... In WARhammer Age of Reckoning there you go same way - hard assist. There are extra addons implented (Enemy) to work better with assist.
Key against assist is like always counterplay in daoc. And there are so much tools you can use:
-Nearsight, best tool against Archer - Runemaster, Wizzards and Cabas always out in zergfights, many!
-Climber and melee engagement
-Gtaoe are awesome (no line of sight needed!) And there is never a Fulltank in Grp no negate that gtaoe.
-DPS pressure with Catas, Pallintone, Trebuchet
-We are on Phoenix, there are best aoe RAs implented like TWF, Static Tempest, Maelstrom, Ichor....
-Cassic rupt, anything that resets like aoe nukes or if range needed Nearsight spam rupt. (clever MoC1 = gg)

I just can say use that tools. The problem is more simple, not many use the options and only half afk sticky on zerglead and hitting after tab targeting own AOE to leech.
Play clever like the Archer assist and organzie your combat in Discord/Teamspek.

There is a 100% reason you never see a Archer in 8vs8 or in strong smallmen settings. They are limited and can easy be handeled > See above

Fri 28 May 2021 1:24 PM by Irkeno

No one is saying they're good individually or a good candidate for grouping to fight even numbers. Their power comes from advantageous range and ability to shoot from stealth and add easily with little counter.

Look how few times Power rangers die each week and the RPs they earn. They're not exactly 'good players' but they're basically taking advantage of broken mechanics and styles which cannot be countered to profit. Or hunter groups that meatball around in 7/8 large groups to fight solos/smalls just by blowing Ip4 to make it like fighting a tarpit, much of the time avoiding incing even a 2v5 directly in favour of waiting to add. It's not good gameplay or anything of the sort.

But that's kinda the problem with it, that it's clearly incredibly viable for many groups doing this, which is a pretty big shame because instead of creating more diverse fun fights these setups are basically just designed to ruin fights. It's exactly the issue that this on paper is not a good setup but so many groups are running it because it's one thats easy to hide away with and only engage in fights they can add on or pick on smaller numbers and basically just make the general gameplay experience worse due to their presence. Which is both incredibly dull and makes people quit the game. Since this is a small community game, toxic playstyles like this arent helpful.

It's hard to do but a buff to them individually but a nerf to the strength of seeing them in large groups shooting individual targets is probably the way to go.

Fri 28 May 2021 1:24 PM by Ceen

Noleran wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 12:40 PM
There is a 100% reason you never see a Archer in 8vs8 or in strong smallmen settings. They are limited and can easy be handeled > See above

I see archers in small man and fg all day long camping docks and flags.

Fri 28 May 2021 1:28 PM by Irkeno

Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 1:24 PM
Noleran wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 12:40 PM
There is a 100% reason you never see a Archer in 8vs8 or in strong smallmen settings. They are limited and can easy be handeled > See above

I see archers in small man and fg all day long camping docks and flags.

popping SL pots in groups to find solos. Yes another topic though.

Fri 28 May 2021 1:41 PM by inoeth

its really a shame, i mean archers are not even bad or weak classes (execpt scouts somehow) but ppl refuse to master them, instead just grp up and one-button play them...
pathetic!

Fri 28 May 2021 1:54 PM by Irkeno

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 1:41 PM
its really a shame, i mean archers are not even bad or weak classes (execpt scouts somehow) but ppl refuse to master them, instead just grp up and one-button play them...
pathetic!

Yuva does it well.

With style changes ranger/hunter become stronger in melee after the style change but could still probably do with a boost, and these playstyles become even more viable to play in these large balls adding fights if this doesnt get addressed.

Fri 28 May 2021 1:59 PM by Tommylad

And the whining goes on. Somebody mentioned MoS .....yep you need it....Mastery of Sense. Hey little noobies, you know where archers usually hang out....oh wait you are noobies. Well play the game a bit more and you will know where to find em. Anyway, when it comes to Mastery of Whining you are doin OK :-)

Fri 28 May 2021 3:15 PM by inoeth

Tommylad wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 1:59 PM
And the whining goes on. Somebody mentioned MoS .....yep you need it....Mastery of Sense. Hey little noobies, you know where archers usually hang out....oh wait you are noobies. Well play the game a bit more and you will know where to find em. Anyway, when it comes to Mastery of Whining you are doin OK :-)

so getting shot by 8 rangers and instantly die is a l2p issue and we are all noobs?

phew cant find words for this kind of nonsense really...

Fri 28 May 2021 3:27 PM by Noleran

8 Rangers would be nice. But not really a sustain and practice without any support.
Normally you need always Druid, Bard and sometimes a Warden.
Spec buffs nice, the heals are straight needed and nearsight cure.

I dont know a Grp that straightly runs 8 rangers and all assist....

Fri 28 May 2021 3:29 PM by inoeth

Noleran wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 3:27 PM
8 Rangers would be nice. But not really a sustain and practice without any support.
Normally you need always Druid, Bard and sometimes a Warden.
Spec buffs nice, the heals are straight needed and nearsight cure.

I dont know a Grp that straightly runs 8 rangers and all assist....

is that some kind of excuse?

weird

Fri 28 May 2021 3:34 PM by Noleran

inoeth wrote:
Noleran wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 3:27 PM
8 Rangers would be nice. But not really a sustain and practice without any support.
Normally you need always Druid, Bard and sometimes a Warden.
Spec buffs nice, the heals are straight needed and nearsight cure.

I dont know a Grp that straightly runs 8 rangers and all assist....

is that some kind of excuse?

weird

Erm, no? Its just a fact and thats how it is on Phoenix. Why I should excuse something?
Dont get the question....

Fri 28 May 2021 4:42 PM by Tommylad

LOL it just gets funnier. All this whining because you died. The Devs have made sure archers can't kill or make it difficult when solo and you wonder why archers group up. So now it's .....wah wah wah .....not fair they are grouping and I died,,,,tell em to stop it .....not fair......nerf it nerf it lololol. Well carry on whining, it's great entertainment.

Fri 28 May 2021 5:10 PM by finyan

Guys i have really good News for you.
You are not longer forced to play a Game that kills you. You will not meet a PR out there. And if u all don't log in, these PR wont have targets to shoot down.
Please yourself

Fri 28 May 2021 5:46 PM by Noleran

Tommylad wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 4:42 PM
The Devs have made sure archers can't kill or make it difficult when solo and you wonder why archers group up.

That!

Fri 28 May 2021 6:29 PM by Noashakra

Don't lie to yourself, it's a mix of not being able to kill solo for some people, but also having a gameplay appealing to scubs looking for easy rps with no effort.

Fri 28 May 2021 7:03 PM by Irkeno

Tommylad wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 4:42 PM
LOL it just gets funnier. All this whining because you died. The Devs have made sure archers can't kill or make it difficult when solo and you wonder why archers group up. So now it's .....wah wah wah .....not fair they are grouping and I died,,,,tell em to stop it .....not fair......nerf it nerf it lololol. Well carry on whining, it's great entertainment.

finyan wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 5:10 PM
Guys i have really good News for you.
You are not longer forced to play a Game that kills you. You will not meet a PR out there. And if u all don't log in, these PR wont have targets to shoot down.
Please yourself

Love these POVs "Lets kill a game we all love (and probably the last iteration of the game for many) by being toxic supporting a gameplay style which values winning simply by having greater numbers as opposed to any semblance of skill"

Fri 28 May 2021 8:17 PM by Tashkent

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 7:03 PM
Tommylad wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 4:42 PM
LOL it just gets funnier. All this whining because you died. The Devs have made sure archers can't kill or make it difficult when solo and you wonder why archers group up. So now it's .....wah wah wah .....not fair they are grouping and I died,,,,tell em to stop it .....not fair......nerf it nerf it lololol. Well carry on whining, it's great entertainment.

finyan wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 5:10 PM
Guys i have really good News for you.
You are not longer forced to play a Game that kills you. You will not meet a PR out there. And if u all don't log in, these PR wont have targets to shoot down.
Please yourself

Love these POVs "Lets kill a game we all love (and probably the last iteration of the game for many) by being toxic supporting a gameplay style which values winning simply by having greater numbers as opposed to any semblance of skill"

I'm always amazed that those povs still exist in a decades old game where everyone of us has seen and achieved everything. Red is dead is such a short sighted premise and people should have understood by now that we play together even as enemies. Or else servers die.

Fri 28 May 2021 10:04 PM by Leafus

Power Rangers

Last 48 hours

4650 Kills

0 deaths

That is either:

1) exploit of a bug
2) somewhere you are not reachable or targetable
3) you used a god mode cheat code

There is no other possible explanation and this needs seriously looking into by the devs/GM. If you see those stats and don’t see anything wrong, you’re a member of that guild. Or a hib.

Fri 28 May 2021 10:13 PM by daytonchambers

Leafus wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 10:04 PM
Power Rangers

Last 48 hours

4650 Kills

0 deaths

That is either:

1) exploit of a bug
2) somewhere you are not reachable or targetable
3) you used a god mode cheat code

There is no other possible explanation and this needs seriously looking j to. If you see those stats and don’t see anything wrong, you’re a member of that guild. Period.

Here's an explanation: zerg busting.

I can spam through a wall of casters on rapidfire tagging each one of them to interrupt and break a siege. If said casters die shortly later to the counter-push after they get neutered via interrupt then I get credit for a kill despite having only done a slight bit of damage to each target.

Fri 28 May 2021 10:22 PM by Leafus

Yes but even your precious mentalists who dot their way at 20/tick to RR347 die every so often. These guys don’t die. Why? Not targetable. That’s why.

Fri 28 May 2021 10:24 PM by Ceen

Leafus wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 10:22 PM
Yes but even your precious mentalists who dot their way at 20/tick to RR347 die every so often. These guys don’t die. Why? Not targetable. That’s why.

They are targetable I joined the zerg tonight and could mezz / rupt them all the time. Still exploded three times in < 1 sec

The mentalist has to dot in 1.5 k range while he is an easy kill. They sit on the stairs behind the outer wall and only aoe bolt mezz and a 200 iq gtaoe wiz/rm can rupt them while they have 3-4 healers in their back.
If door two opens they sos4 away simple as that you simple can not die using this strategy =)
They just mastered keep defense no exploid needed.

Fri 28 May 2021 10:31 PM by Leafus

In 20 years of DAOC 15 geniuses spring forth and come up with a new way to defend a keep? I don’t buy that at all

Fri 28 May 2021 11:04 PM by Tashkent

Leafus wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 10:04 PM
Power Rangers

Last 48 hours

4650 Kills

0 deaths

That is either:

1) exploit of a bug
2) somewhere you are not reachable or targetable
3) you used a god mode cheat code

There is no other possible explanation and this needs seriously looking into by the devs/GM. If you see those stats and don’t see anything wrong, you’re a member of that guild. Or a hib.

15 rps/kill...

Fri 28 May 2021 11:13 PM by Ceen

Leafus wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 10:31 PM
In 20 years of DAOC 15 geniuses spring forth and come up with a new way to defend a keep? I don’t buy that at all

Last I checked phoenix NF is like two years.
Its not that hard to do either. SoS DI etc is always up and you have all the zerglings as your buffer since you have 700 logs more range than the usual caster. And they do not defend they farm RP.
Rumors say that Roadri coached them.

Sat 29 May 2021 2:20 AM by Irkeno

Honestly power rangers are a special breed of stupid, but theyve set up to fight that way in keeps, and thats up to them. They mostly stick to keeps so less of a problem for broader gameplay.

but its the general prominence of these groups whos objective is basically just griefing. If a mechanic to reduce effectiveness of arrows on someone in combat or someone who has recently been shot is put in place these will probably disperse and youll have more people enjoying more different aspects of the game. Unfortunately doing nothing will just spawn more of these groups, and then youre left with nothing.

Sat 29 May 2021 7:40 AM by Jingo NZ

Also, once the devs put in arrow dmg immunity for 1.0 sec after betting hit, they can up bow dmg/utility again.

Sat 29 May 2021 12:24 PM by MagicaeFungos

Jingo NZ wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 7:40 AM
Also, once the devs put in arrow dmg immunity for 1.0 sec after betting hit, they can up bow dmg/utility again.

Are they also putting nuke immunity for 1.0 after being hit to avoid getting debuff nuke train to the ground?

Should also do that to tank trains too while at it..

Sat 29 May 2021 4:48 PM by gotwqqd

MagicaeFungos wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 12:24 PM
Jingo NZ wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 7:40 AM
Also, once the devs put in arrow dmg immunity for 1.0 sec after betting hit, they can up bow dmg/utility again.

Are they also putting nuke immunity for 1.0 after being hit to avoid getting debuff nuke train to the ground?

Should also do that to tank trains too while at it..

STEALTH!!!!

Tue 1 Jun 2021 6:51 AM by Adwaenyth

Alternatively reduce bow range to 1500. Remove elevation bonus.

Tue 1 Jun 2021 7:40 AM by Tashkent

Adwaenyth wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 6:51 AM
Alternatively reduce bow range to 1500. Remove elevation bonus.

Actually a pretty nice idea, reduce range for every group member by 200 or so.

Tue 1 Jun 2021 10:33 AM by inoeth

Tashkent wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 7:40 AM
Adwaenyth wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 6:51 AM
Alternatively reduce bow range to 1500. Remove elevation bonus.
Actually a pretty nice idea, reduce range for every group member by 200 or so.

or increased missrate per grp member. an array of archers tends to volley anyway, that would give it another rpg touch ;D