Style Overhaul Attempt 2 - Phoenix Freeshard

We'll attempt another style overhaul, for now just the announcement to explain the goals and principles behind it.

Mandatory Goals:
Regardless of what else is decided, these are things that will happen as the current situation can more or less be called buggy.

Style requirements will be changed
The client automatically applies the requirement indicators based on the used style icon and we consider it very much desirable to have those indicators match the actual requirements, to keep consistency this will mean taking the live requirements and chains.

Style Chains
Streak avoidance makes 3+ chains even more difficult to hit than they should be. We consider the streak prevention to have greater value in general and therefore we will cap positional style chains at 2. That is pretty much the case for almost all style chains with the live requirements (and aside from consistency a big reason to go there).
This would leave us with 5 more chains that have 3 parts, after evade in cstrike, after evade and parry for svg and the pa and bs1 chain. Here we’ll probably go with making the 3rd style an alternative follow up for the opener with increased damage and/or alternative effects to reward speccing higher.

Switch to the more accurate style damage formula
This could reasonably be done without noticeable changes to the current damage at common spec levels. In technical terms, we will move away from the approximating single growth rate per style and towards the base value + per spec gain value per style.

Variance
Especially because of the formula switch we’ll disable melee variance again a couple days before the style overhaul actually happens and will keep it disabled, aka always set to 25, for some time to better evaluate the style values. After the evaluation phase variance will make a return, however, it will then be a limited form: instead of rng 0 – 50 it will only be rng 15-35 or 20 – 30.

Overhaul
Then we come to the actual overhaul and the guiding principles for it:

Ideally, for any given class choosing between weapon lines should come down to personal preferences with each line having something unique that’s nice to have but not mandatory.

Styles having class specific differences should be embraced, especially if it's either thematically fitting for the class or due to the class usually having an entirely different playstyle. However, there shouldn't be class specific differences just for the sake of having class specific differences.

While the overhaul will unquestionably have an impact on class balance, it's not the driving force for having one in the first place.

It might be worth it to at least evaluate some unusual mechanics to achieve the basic style / weapon line requirements. For group viability that would usually mean positional snares, ideally back positional. For solos that would usually mean reactive stun and/or haste debuff.
The evaluation would most likely take the form of short tests to get actual feedback.

To be perfectly clear, these extras - class specific style effects, having something unique per line or alternative mechanics to provide the basics - are just there to not have the lines end up as exact copies of one another that just allow you to wield a different cosmetic item called a weapon (or to hit a different resist type) but even that would be an improvement over the current state.

UPDATE:
Initial first phase available here: https://playphoenix.online/charplan/styles.html
Please ignore everything except for styles and their effects on that charplan, the other parts may or may not be up to date.
The initial phase should cover the mandatory goals while also doing some effort to make more lines usable for many classes. It's expected that there will be something will have been missed or just plain wrong. Please report such issues here in the thread.

UPDATE 2:
Overview for easier style comparisons: https://playphoenix.online/charplan/style_overview.html

Fri 14 May 2021 1:13 PM by Centenario

I think the easiest would be to show an example, I suggest starting with the taunt style and explaining clearly what you would do:
Q1: would the growth rate be the same for each realm?
Q2: would the to hit and defense modifiers and endo cost be standardized?
Q3: Mid being able to use these styles with 2-handers would that have any implication?
Q4: Level standardization? 29staff = 0.7 GR? 12(2hand) or 12(polearm)= 0.59 like lvl 8slash/crush/thrust styles

Already on alb we can see differences between crush/thrust/slash making the crush taunt style superior for instance tanking, just cause of superior to-hit bonus of 10
I also forgot the flexible weapon taunt style. Very Important, since reaver is like savage very bad when in front of the target 1v1. Boosting taunt style for them would have big implications for the class.

Already we have seen that giving mercenary backsnare has lowered the importance of armsman in caster groups:
Maybe boosting the anytime snare of armsman to longer duration than the mercenary would make him 100% more a valuable than a mercenary for peel.
Yet keeping mercenary viable for peels.
Mercenary being a +peel/slam/guard/++dps (dual bonus) role
While armsman a ++peel/slam/dps/stoic/DD role

Fri 14 May 2021 1:17 PM by

gruenesschaf

Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 1:13 PM
I think the easiest would be to show an example, I suggest starting with the taunt style and explaining clearly what you would do:
Q1: would the growth rate be the same for each realm?
- Mid being able to use these styles with 2-handers would that have any implication?
Q2: would the to hit and defense modifiers and endo cost be standardized?
- Mid being able to use these styles with 2-handers would that have any implication?

It seems reasonable to unify things that are conceptually already the same. That means it would make sense for taunt styles to have +hit, -defense and potentially lowish damage (compared to other anytimer/positionals). As far as the endurance cost go, it's possible that low endurance low damage might become a gimmick for one line and high endurance high damage a gimmick for another but it's also conceivable that the taunts will end up similar in cost.
However, given that taunt is very much a basic necessity for a weapon line it's also conceivable to be covered by an "alternative mechanic", if only for a test. Fundamentally we will come up with a hopefully sensible effect distribution in general and with a separate effect distribution that depends on alternative mechanics.

As far as 2h goes, there won't be any difference as using a 2h already has some implications on its own.

Fri 14 May 2021 1:24 PM by Noashakra

This seems reasonable as a foundation. Let's see what you are going to cook us.

Fri 14 May 2021 1:28 PM by evert

I didn't like it last time and I still don't like it, but at least you sound more reasonable this time. My advice would be to change as little as possible and to keep the current "calling card" of each line (ie hammer snares, thrust 2-part long snare, pole anytime snare... they are all snares aren't they).

Fri 14 May 2021 1:54 PM by Magesty

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 12:28 PM
Style Chains
Streak avoidance makes 3+ chains even more difficult to hit than they should be. We consider the streak prevention to have greater value in general and therefore we will cap positional style chains at 2. That is pretty much the case for almost all style chains with the live requirements (and aside from consistency a big reason to go there).
This would leave us with 5 more chains that have 3 parts, after evade in cstrike, after evade and parry for svg and the pa and bs1 chain. Here we’ll probably go with making the 3rd style an alternative follow up for the opener with increased damage and/or alternative effects to reward speccing higher.

I think you're missing a few multiple part chains...

Is streak avoidance the reason I can almost never land Cobra? How is streak avoidance coded, and couldn't you simply have it kick in at some point after say 3-4 hits?

What is the plan with Blizzard Blade? That is a three part chain and would certainly have a very large impact on balance if you start toying with it.

*EDIT
I just reread your post, and if I'm understanding this you're going to adopt the live server style requirements? Does this mean a total rework of Flexible and Scythe?

Fri 14 May 2021 2:02 PM by byron

Don't know how it will go but I would like to thank you to try to keep this game fresh with events and custom changes . I was not always agree with all the changes implemented but I prefer like this that having the same mechanics over and over forever, at least a test period should be accepted by all the players. Saying that, I hope that basic traits of each class will be still visible, for example a zerk is not a blademaster that is not a mercenary too. Every class on each realm have its pros and cons and for example the new back snare style of mercenary was not in this direction (one change I was not agree with).

Fri 14 May 2021 2:06 PM by NunchuckNunyas

These changes seem well thought out and reasonable. Not to mention very much needed for certain spec lines that are just not viable currently. Also, it's very tough to pull off a 4 style or even a 3 style chain in rvr/pvp so that will be great to have a reduction there! I appreciate the work that went into this and thank you for not giving up on getting these changes into production!

Fri 14 May 2021 2:08 PM by Lail

Simplify and unify, but try to keep unique mechanics for each weapon archetype. Sounds good, but surely not a simple task.!

However, I really like the slow and thoughful pace of realizing this monsterous project.
This is what i read between the lines: Announce - Tinker - Ask/Test - Modify - Implement.
Sounds great. Should prevent a second "Toy desaster" and will improove the game.

Thanks! <3 Looking forward to it.

Fri 14 May 2021 2:10 PM by

gruenesschaf

Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 1:54 PM
I just reread your post, and if I'm understanding this you're going to adopt the live server style requirements? Does this mean a total rework of Flexible and Scythe?

We are going to adopt the requirements and hence chains (except the mentioned remaining 3 part chains), however we're not going to take all effects as live has them. There will be some overlap however as live also did the "lines should have the basics" thing. For reaver / vw in particular the effect overlap with live will be very high. The most notable exception will be no front root for the vw and no armor effectiveness debuffs in general, the other live effects look reasonable for scythe and flex and are for the most part present in the current lines.

Fri 14 May 2021 2:12 PM by l00ri

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 12:28 PM
Style Chains
This would leave us with 5 more chains that have 3 parts, after evade in cstrike, after evade and parry for svg and the pa and bs1 chain. Here we’ll probably go with making the 3rd style an alternative follow up for the opener with increased damage and/or alternative effects to reward speccing higher.

Just from the top of my head:

- Valewalker after Evade (4Part)
- Valewalker after Parry (3Part)
- Alb Thrust after Evade (3Part)
- Reaver after Block (4 Part)
- Reaver after Parry (3Part)
- Celtic Dual after Evade (3Part)
- Hib Thrust after Evade (3Part)

Fri 14 May 2021 2:15 PM by Eckso

I was all for the style changes before, and am stoked to see you want to try again. Hopefully the community reacts a bit more maturely this time around. I think a soft roll into this with communication with the player base, testing, and further discussion is the way to go too.

Cheers
-Exo

Fri 14 May 2021 2:19 PM by

gruenesschaf

Lail wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 2:08 PM
This is what i read between the lines: Announce - Tinker - Ask/Test - Modify - Implement.

The actual process will most likely be to get it in a state where we have the style requirements and all lines have the basics / class iconic things and then release that to get people used to the new requirements. This first stage would pretty much cover all the mentioned mandatory goals but kind of by definition lack the line uniqueness.
The next stage would then be to add line uniqueness / flavor but that's the most likely part to receive negative responses and hence it is a real and acceptable if undesirable possibility to end up with pretty much the first stage result.

Fri 14 May 2021 2:23 PM by borodino1812

I hope you'll err on the side of caution, less is more type of approach. Instead of huge sweeping changes. However, some speclines need help at the moment.

Fri 14 May 2021 2:25 PM by Magesty

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 2:10 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 1:54 PM
I just reread your post, and if I'm understanding this you're going to adopt the live server style requirements? Does this mean a total rework of Flexible and Scythe?

We are going to adopt the requirements and hence chains (except the mentioned remaining 3 part chains), however we're not going to take all effects as live has them. There will be some overlap however as live also did the "lines should have the basics" thing. For reaver / vw in particular the effect overlap with live will be very high. The most notable exception will be no front root for the vw and no armor effectiveness debuffs in general, the other live effects look reasonable for scythe and flex and are for the most part present in the current lines.

This is awesome, and I'm super excited. Flexible desperately needs to have power shifted away from Levi.

I assume the same will go for Friar staff? Adding in some of the heals/DD procs?

I'm a little concerned about things like conflag @ 50 scythe-- will the procs generally be scaled down to be more in line with damage/HP values on Phoenix?

Also, I assume this does not mean adding a DD proc to Ragnarok for thanes? Although it looks like they have scaled that down to a reasonable level on live.

Fri 14 May 2021 2:34 PM by

gruenesschaf

Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 2:25 PM
I assume the same will go for Friar staff? Adding in some of the heals/DD procs?

How exactly supporter (warden, bard, friar) styles are going to be handled hasn't been discussed yet. It could go any of these ways
1) Nothing acknowledging that they are "special" hybrids, aka just the basics, kind of like now
2) Going all in on their hybrid status making a weapon focused spec weirdly viable (could include heal procs, could be other supportive stuff to incentivize higher weapon specs and actually hitting things)
3) Mostly the basics with some minor hybrid flavor effects

The most likely way it will go is to start with 1 as part of the general stage 1 thing, then test 2 and finally end up with 3.

Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 2:25 PM
Also, I assume this does not mean adding a DD proc to Ragnarok for thanes? Although it looks like they have scaled that down to a reasonable level on live.

Thane and champ are what I primarily had in mind for mentioning class specific effects, but just like in the supporter case above, those won't be part of the stage 1 effects. The basic reasoning here is the precedent set by reaver and vw, I cannot imagine that thane and champ would have received just melee lines if they were released at SI or later.

Fri 14 May 2021 2:45 PM by Nightcreeper

Just give Hybrid and ligttanks just a 5 sec Slam,
And give em all backsnares in the dw Lines.
Anf fix That sidestyles can easy land from front.
Maybe rethink the macroing help...

If all lf styledd so add some hp overcaps

Fri 14 May 2021 3:02 PM by exveer

Thank you for taking the time to explain it. I'm still pretty anti-style changes, but at least I can see why you'd want to do it, now, and I'll probably fall into the 'disagree and commit' camp. Trusting you!

Fri 14 May 2021 3:52 PM by Astaa

Genuinely interested in what you come up with.

I think Hib 1h blunt is a good start point for a well-rounded set of effects. But conversely, in short testing, it just doesn't seem viable atm. I spent about a year as blunt on live in TOA times and liked it quite a lot.

I also think that anything more than a 2 part chain is a bit of a waste of time, the chances of getting it all off are tiny in any real setting.

Could I also ask about the possibility of some sort of custom phoenix icon packs for any new/changed styles? Some are wonky already, but I fear with more custom changes it could make it worse. (I have no idea about the logistics of that)

Fri 14 May 2021 3:55 PM by Magesty

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 2:34 PM
The most likely way it will go is to start with 1 as part of the general stage 1 thing, then test 2 and finally end up with 3.

Awesome, this will really spruce up solo -> small man play. The small effects that don't have much impact on an 8v8 add a ton of flavor and interesting gameplay to smaller scale combat.

I hope you'll be considerate of DD proc values and class flavor when putting all of this together. None of the Live style changes were made in a vacuum the way they would be on Phoenix. I'm not trying to pretend like Live is anywhere near being the Pinnacle of Balance, but there were a lot more balance levers being pulled-- be it spell line changes, RAs, MLs, shield changes, etc.

Let's briefly compare how the potential style changes would affect Reavers & Vale Walkers each as an example.

One could argue that changing Flexible to what it is on live is close to a wash (assuming Cobra is just a DD instead of a much more flavorful LT). The anytime is better (15 end cost might be a problem, though) which is great against purge, but the positional damage is significantly worse and the utility isn't really improved. Many of the style changes were tied into a revamping of their spell lines and the power of the timered abilities they don't have access to on Phoenix. If Cobra were an LT it would be a minor improvement in solo play from where they are currently, but would be a horrific nerf to any sort of group play. The class would still be stuck with shit tier weapon skill and base stats, and receive little marked improvement in performance (especially relative to the other hybrids) to go along with it. Plus losing the range on Asp is a huge bummer.

Compare this to VWs who will go from having a 3 part side chain with a high value proc to having a two part side chain with a 198 value proc and a two part frontal chain with a 150 value proc. This will make them the de-facto best solo class, and it wont even be close. Their one "weakness", anytime damage, will be covered up, and their melee DPS output will increase by 150%+. On top of this they will have access to MoA, which doesn't exist on Live. Really concerning as someone who would then have to deal with a parade of unbeatable VWs in between all of the assassins. It's already hard enough to deal with side stun cheese on NA, now they will be able to just queue GR/side stun and proc on you no matter what.

Over all I think moving styles more towards what they are on Live is a great decision, but it has to be done with care and consideration. Toning down the proc values and focusing on class flavor will yield much healthier results. Outside of snares/utility I really hope 8v8 balance does not even enter the conversation for style design. We all know where that path leads.

*Edit- Another thing to consider is most of the reworked styles tie directly in to the slam changes and attempts to shift power towards reactionary/positional stuns. If slam stays in place a lot of styles, like Dual Shadows, will have stun effects that are relatively pointless.

Fri 14 May 2021 4:01 PM by Astaa

Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 3:55 PM
*Edit- Another thing to consider is most of the reworked styles tie directly in to the slam changes and attempts to shift power towards reactionary stuns. If slam stays in place a lot of styles, like Dual Shadows, will have stun effects that are relatively pointless.

Agree with this, I don't like slam, it's pretty cheesy, and I am not keen on short stuns (2 secs etc) they just seem to be a bit pointless and are often tied into key chains (off parry etc) and mess with stun timer management. I quite like Ultimate recovery as a style (Hib LW) but it's obviously extremely situational, 6 sec stun off enemy parry.

Selfishly I would like to see hib spear get some sort of boost, while I guess it's great for 8v8 it just feels under powered in 1v1 and frankly it's Hib's iconic class spec.

Fri 14 May 2021 4:26 PM by Noashakra

Really usefull for tanks to have stuns on reactionnary vs mages.

Fri 14 May 2021 4:51 PM by Nephamael

We'll attempt another style overhaul, for now just the announcement to explain the goals and principles behind it.

Great, it's about time!

Mandatory Goals:
Regardless of what else is decided, these are things that will happen as the current situation can more or less be called buggy.

Style requirements will be changed
The client automatically applies the requirement indicators based on the used style icon and we consider it very much desirable to have those indicators match the actual requirements, to keep consistency this will mean taking the live requirements and chains.

Q1: Will that change the time window one has to use a reactionary style?

Style Chains
Streak avoidance makes 3+ chains even more difficult to hit than they should be. We consider the streak prevention to have greater value in general and therefore we will cap positional style chains at 2. That is pretty much the case for almost all style chains with the live requirements (and aside from consistency a big reason to go there).
This would leave us with 5 more chains that have 3 parts, after evade in cstrike, after evade and parry for svg and the pa and bs1 chain. Here we’ll probably go with making the 3rd style an alternative follow up for the opener with increased damage and/or alternative effects to reward speccing higher.

Q2: Could we keep 3+ chains for reactionaries? - I personally find a lot of joy in trying to land the entire CS evade chain (50 cs spec ns), i think many others feel the same.

Q2a: (more of a suggestion) About the Positionals: I think making everything 2 chain would make it a lot easier to balance, even tho a bit of excitement and a lot of uniqueness would be collateral damage.
- An alternative approach: -Example: The unique BM 3 chain sidechain could have the growthrate of the first style increased to match the average growthrate of the merc sidechain 2 styles vs 2 styles, - then the 3rd style could stay as an extra, if you land it great, if not - not as bad as now.
- Same for the zerker 3 style backchain, where as the dd could be on the 2nd style, so the punishment for not landing the 3rd style would go, while the high growthrate of the 3rd style makes it still desireable to land it after the 2nd. (growthrates are in decent shape, could only be upped slightly to compensate for the lack of defense a zerker has)

Tanks and Offtanks are already pretty straight forward to play right now - taking away even more things to pay attention to would maybe push them from a bit binary to boring.

Switch to the more accurate style damage formula
This could reasonably be done without noticeable changes to the current damage at common spec levels. In technical terms, we will move away from the approximating single growth rate per style and towards the base value + per spec gain value per style.

Q3: Does that mean growthrates will be not visible to players anymore? Or will we still know how much dmg every single style does in comparison to another?

Or will growthrates stay and just the spec+bonus will affect the dmg after growthrate more significantly?

Variance
Especially because of the formula switch we’ll disable melee variance again a couple days before the style overhaul actually happens and will keep it disabled, aka always set to 25, for some time to better evaluate the style values. After the evaluation phase variance will make a return, however, it will then be a limited form: instead of rng 0 – 50 it will only be rng 15-35 or 20 – 30.

cool

Overhaul
Then we come to the actual overhaul and the guiding principles for it:

Ideally, for any given class choosing between weapon lines should come down to personal preferences with each line having something unique that’s nice to have but not mandatory.

Q4: Are you planning a conservative overhaul, mostly keeping styles and just reworking unused/useless styles and changing growthrates/to hit/defense/snare duration, or is it gonna be a total rework from scratch?

Styles having class specific differences should be embraced, especially if it's either thematically fitting for the class or due to the class usually having an entirely different playstyle. However, there shouldn't be class specific differences just for the sake of having class specific differences.

Nice, so scout and warden will get awesome high weapon spec styles yes?

I think this is a great idea (just needs to be not 2 wild, so people don't have to learn what a hundred new styles do before being able to play competitive).

While the overhaul will unquestionably have an impact on class balance, it's not the driving force for having one in the first place.

cool

It might be worth it to at least evaluate some unusual mechanics to achieve the basic style / weapon line requirements. For group viability that would usually mean positional snares, ideally back positional. For solos that would usually mean reactive stun and/or haste debuff.
The evaluation would most likely take the form of short tests to get actual feedback.

It would be totally awesome to see viable snares or different payoffs for every weapon spec.

It would be totally awesome to see at least 2 different reactionary chains per weapon spec - example: alb 2h only has a after parry, but no after evade or block style = pretty boring to play - would be awesome if you add something there (= more fun)!

To be perfectly clear, these extras - class specific style effects, having something unique per line or alternative mechanics to provide the basics - are just there to not have the lines end up as exact copies of one another that just allow you to wield a different cosmetic item called a weapon (or to hit a different resist type) but even that would be an improvement over the current state.

Yes to uniqueness!

- I am very happy you do this finally and hope the community will have the patience to go through the weeks or months it takes to balance it with a positive mindset. -

Fri 14 May 2021 5:11 PM by Elesdee

I heavily recommend to TEST all this in SANDBOX environment without having impact on the "real" ingame world.

+ Listen to experienced players opinions, but not only to beginners participating with loud voices, but without a clue of the game dynamics and the impact of specific changes.

Peace

Fri 14 May 2021 5:17 PM by Magesty

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 4:51 PM
- I am very happy you do this finally and hope the community will have the patience to go through the weeks or months it takes to balance it with a positive mindset. -

Personally, I can't wait to try to read through the borderline incoherent rage posts these changes are going to bring. The clear and consistent communication only satiates the players that have a fully functioning frontal lobe.

It's probably going to net me more entertainment than the actual gameplay improvements if we are being honest.

The Bans forum is basically going to be a live feed.

Fri 14 May 2021 5:30 PM by easytoremember

Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 5:17 PM
Personally, I can't wait to try to read through the borderline incoherent rage posts these changes are going to bring. The clear and consistent communication only satiates the players that have a fully functioning frontal lobe.

"I am satiated by clear and consistent communication [with no consequence to what is being clearly and consistently communicated]."
You, yes you, are the reason the world sucks.
How they react will depend entirely on what ends up being proposed. The manner of presentation is only a pleasant or crude wrapping paper, and being placated or infuriated solely by the packaging is the mark of a lemming.

Fri 14 May 2021 5:56 PM by

gruenesschaf

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 4:51 PM
Q1: Will that change the time window one has to use a reactionary style?

No. This is just to bring the style indicators, like the side / back or reactional blip thingie in line with the actual requirements.

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 4:51 PM
Q2: Could we keep 3+ chains for reactionaries? - I personally find a lot of joy in trying to land the entire CS evade chain (50 cs spec ns), i think many others feel the same.

Q2a: (more of a suggestion) About the Positionals: I think making everything 2 chain would make it a lot easier to balance, even tho a bit of excitement and a lot of uniqueness would be collateral damage.
- An alternative approach: -Example: The unique BM 3 chain sidechain could have the growthrate of the first style increased to match the average growthrate of the merc sidechain 2 styles vs 2 styles, - then the 3rd style could stay as an extra, if you land it great, if not - not as bad as now.
- Same for the zerker 3 style backchain, where as the dd could be on the 2nd style, so the punishment for not landing the 3rd style would go, while the high growthrate of the 3rd style makes it still desireable to land it after the 2nd. (growthrates are in decent shape, could only be upped slightly to compensate for the lack of defense a zerker has)

3+ chains are kind of unusable in rvr settings as it stands, keeping them would not really provide any value. Given that as well as wanting the style requirement indicator to match it's easier to just take the style set / requirements as live has them as a whole with the mentioned adjustment to the 5 remaining outlier.

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 4:51 PM
Q3: Does that mean growthrates will be not visible to players anymore? Or will we still know how much dmg every single style does in comparison to another?

Or will growthrates stay and just the spec+bonus will affect the dmg after growthrate more significantly?

Instead of growth rates the base and per spec values as well as a comparison value will be on the char planner. The comparison value will pretty much represent the style base value + gain per spec point at 65 spec which is about as indicative as the growth rate comparison is right now when it comes to damage.

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 4:51 PM
Q4: Are you planning a conservative overhaul, mostly keeping styles and just reworking unused/useless styles and changing growthrates/to hit/defense/snare duration, or is it gonna be a total rework from scratch?

The initial release / stage 1 will be very conservative when it comes to the kinds of effects applied by styles. This will also be about as boring as the current styles are as it represents the lines without class based flavoring / line uniqueness. The following stages will see an introduction of class based flavoring / line uniqueness for a few classes / lines at a time. Some of those effects are potentially even experimental and will raise some eyebrows and, in case we're low on tears, some will be over the top just to have tested them for a day. Who knows, maybe the pet procs make a come back, they were received really well :p

Fri 14 May 2021 6:30 PM by Magesty

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 5:30 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 5:17 PM
Personally, I can't wait to try to read through the borderline incoherent rage posts these changes are going to bring. The clear and consistent communication only satiates the players that have a fully functioning frontal lobe.
"I am satiated by clear and consistent communication [with no consequence to what is being clearly and consistently communicated]."
You, yes you, are the reason the world sucks.
How they react will depend entirely on what ends up being proposed. The manner of presentation is only a pleasant or crude wrapping paper, and being placated or infuriated solely by the packaging is the mark of a lemming.

A mature person who disagrees with the changes will express that in a reasonable manner that to some extent matches the quality of the "wrapping" being provided. I can see why you interpreted what I said the way you did. My intention was to convey emotional satiation, not necessarily blind agreement. If the changes are delivered with open communication and reasonable justification, that should make a significant difference in how a person responds.

Consider the net difference in player response to a slow introduction of mechanics accompanied by written explanation and these type of Q+A style threads compared to simply implementing the changes suddenly with little to no communication. Very different wrapping, yet a significantly more emotionally-driven and angry response would be expected from the latter strategy-- even from "reasonable" adults. So, yes, the wrapping does matter, because it allows you as a consumer to acquire perspective. If you truly don't think the wrapping matters, I assume you are a person who goes through the life carrying "strong" opinions that are actually weakly reinforced because you have never taken the time to interact with and consider the merits of opposing ideas.

Coherent and well thought out debate is certainly not what I was talking about with my post.

If you've seen my other posts it should be pretty clear that I have no issues disagreeing with the development team, and frankly, I think they have made some pretty obvious mistakes, but I do acknowledge the actual nature of the service that is being provided and my relation to it. They are putting their personal time in to provide a product that I am consuming for free, and otherwise wouldn't have access to. This version of DAoC simply did not exist between the closing of the classic servers and the creation of Phoenix. Ultimately if they decide to implement a change I disagree with I have no realistic recourse outside of communication or quitting. It shouldn't really be a matter of emotion, but for some man-children it is, and I cannot wait to see the stream of consciousness word vomit they deliver.

Fri 14 May 2021 6:46 PM by Astaa

Can we not make another thread just descend into petty insults please

Fri 14 May 2021 6:52 PM by Magesty

Astaa wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 6:46 PM
Can we not make another thread just descend into petty insults please

Good call. Back to important questions:

Will Leviathan be given the updated graphic and accompanying WHUMP sound effect? I have been asking for this since beta.

Fri 14 May 2021 6:59 PM by Hattrick

The only thing I'm going to add here (and I already know that just saying this is going to make some people howl) is that I feel the 60% snare on melee styles is too powerful to be put on anytime or rear positional styles which are laughably easy to land. 60% is considerably stronger than casted snares which are between 35-50%. I'm ok with melee having a stronger snare, since they have to get in melee range to use it. What I'm not ok with is the fact that once they hit you with it, any idiot can just /stick and spam the style over and over and you are helpless to get away from them without help. Maybe consider putting 60% snares only on side positionals so the melee player has to at least put forth a modicum of effort to maintain the snare and put weaker versions on the easier to land rear positional and, of course, any-timers?

Regarding Midgard specifically, the rear positional snare is why when people ask in /advice in Midgard what weapon to spec, 99% of the replies to that person will say hammer. That rear snare style is the only reason they say hammer. As long as hammer remains the only weapon line in Mid with an easily landed 60% snare (sword has one but it's the 2nd part of a side style chain, /boggle at that), it will remain the only weapon most Midgard melees will use. That's why I said above that the 60% snare is too powerful. When one thing is the sole reason almost all players spec something, it's pretty safe to say it's too powerful.

Finally on this topic, please consider moving the snare style for the Savage's hand to hand line to someplace else. Right now it is assigned to an on evade style which is pretty much worthless as someone that is actively hitting you obviously doesn't need to be snared.

Fri 14 May 2021 7:00 PM by Malte2502

What i would really like to see is giving assassins access to higher bleed caps as their signature style thingy.
The main stealthers atm are not viable without poison, and poison is mit viable without high viper.
To achieve the goal of viability in weapon specs that situation hast to be taken into account.

Fri 14 May 2021 7:09 PM by Kwall0311

Malte2502 wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 7:00 PM
What i would really like to see is giving assassins access to higher bleed caps as their signature style thingy.
The main stealthers atm are not viable without poison, and poison is mit viable without high viper.
To achieve the goal of viability in weapon specs that situation hast to be taken into account.

Fri 14 May 2021 7:17 PM by easytoremember

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 6:59 PM
The only thing I'm going to add here (and I already know that just saying this is going to make some people howl) is that I feel the 60% snare on melee styles is too powerful to be put on anytime or rear positional styles which are laughably easy to land. 60% is considerably stronger than casted snares which are between 35-50%. I'm ok with melee having a stronger snare, since they have to get in melee range to use it. What I'm not ok with is the fact that once they hit you with it, any idiot can just /stick and spam the style over and over and you are helpless to get away from them without help. Maybe consider putting 60% snares only on side positionals so the melee player has to at least put forth a modicum of effort to maintain the snare and put weaker versions on the easier to land rear positional and, of course, any-timers?

Playing around with the duration lets you turn it into something cool: 60% snare with only 3-5 second duration. Dedicating your hits to one target lets you severely hinder them but using it once and moving on is of less impact than the standard snare.
Such a short duration makes it possible to in turn peel the peeler from this higher value snare even if you amp it higher than 60%.

Before someone gets ahead of themself I'm just suggesting as a potential unique or high/alternative style to stick somewhere, not a replacement for conventional snare which seems to be being placed in every line. If it is just too strong to permit a high value spammable snare on a tank tack it onto a Reaver's non-flex line.

Fri 14 May 2021 7:50 PM by Saroi

Malte2502 wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 7:00 PM
What i would really like to see is giving assassins access to higher bleed caps as their signature style thingy.
The main stealthers atm are not viable without poison, and poison is mit viable without high viper.
To achieve the goal of viability in weapon specs that situation hast to be taken into account.

Not sure what you are talking about. Since the dot buff, stealthers have been giving great tools to bypass armor. Because dots do more damage than before, there are enough sins who do not run viper anymore. Higher bleed cap is not needed, sins have enough tools to bypass armor. THere should actually be a nerf to dot, bringing it down to its original state or atleast lower the consistant damage, making the ticks from 50-60 to somewhat 40-45ish.

Fri 14 May 2021 8:03 PM by Saroi

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 12:28 PM
Style requirements will be changed
The client automatically applies the requirement indicators based on the used style icon and we consider it very much desirable to have those indicators match the actual requirements, to keep consistency this will mean taking the live requirements and chains.

Those this mean everyone gets the live styles or are you in some way just giving a portion to people. Like will Celtic Dual for Hibs get a decent anytimer?

Are you also going to seperate Sins and Lighttanks? Atm Both Inf(Until Dual Shadows nerf they had the same bleed) and SB have gotten the same damage on their styles as Merc/Berserker but Nightshade/Ranger did not.
SB also gotten dd proc on Aurora Borealis. On live, they have ASR. Will Inf/SB both get the benefits of their Lighttank version again?

Will CS from live also be here? This would lean hardly towards Sins strafing like crazy cause of the Pincer/Leaper damage combo which in my opinion is a bad playstyle and the reason I do not like Sins on live anymore. Only good side would be, that it could make 2h be usable again as a SB. Pincer 1h and then 2h Leaper.

Fri 14 May 2021 8:32 PM by jckelley87

Back snare or stun for axe/sword in Mid please. Would love to use something other than Hammer.

Fri 14 May 2021 9:11 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Please, please, PLEASE stick to your guns and ignore the vocal minority this time...

Fri 14 May 2021 9:16 PM by Nephamael

3+ chains are kind of unusable in rvr settings as it stands, keeping them would not really provide any value. Given that as well as wanting the style requirement indicator to match it's easier to just take the style set / requirements as live has them as a whole with the mentioned adjustment to the 5 remaining outlier.

First of all thanks for the clarification and fast answers!

Now - while i see all other things you plan very positive i am very unsure about the 3+ style chains.

1) anytimers
I agree on all anytime chains going down to 2 styles. There is no question, landing 3 anytimes in a row is only happening in a melee vs caster 1v1 and nowhere else. (and those are veeeeery rare nowadays)

2) positionals
I agree all positionals should be balanced around 2 styles, as hitting the 3rd style is very unreliable - BUT it still happens every now and then.
And if you hit it, its a very nice feeling + the extra burst of the 3rd style (hello BM/zerk) is rly awesome and can sometimes bring a target down, that you didn't expect to drop without it.
So i suggest keeping the option to land a 3rd chain, but removing the necessity. (moving the interesting effect to the 2nd style and balancing dps around 2 styles - the 3rd style then being a uniqueness to the classes who have it).

3) reactionaries
Reactionaries are almost exclusively used in 1v1s or very small scale smallmen fights.
Therefore i strongly recommend keeping all reactionary style chains at 3+ - if those go it will make all melee 1v1s so much more boring to play. (even tho you rarely land the 3rd+ style you can still do it every now and then).

- Now however maybe i am wrong and it would be more exciting to have interesting effects by 2 different style chains instead - but i think it will be not easy to make 2 options equally viable with different effects. If this option exists now already it usually means one of the 2 options is superior and the other one is a completely unused combo. - If you can pull that one off, so it actually is viable to use 2 different style chains per reactionary it would be exciting, no doubt.

Fri 14 May 2021 9:16 PM by Astaa

I think any reactive style changes should be based on solo, positionals on 8man, would make sense. Any times should be kept to a minimum. If people wanted to roll their face around a few buttons they would roll casters.

Fri 14 May 2021 9:33 PM by gotwqqd

I’d like to keep the 3&4 long chains some of the hybrid classes have(reaver, VW ) or any for that matter.
What I’d like to see is allowing the player to skip any of the intermediate styles in the chain and go right to 3rd or 4th.

You must always start the chain with style 1 but on a three chain style you can omit style 2 and go right to style 3.

On 4 style chains you can omit 2 &3 and go right to 4th.
Go from style 2 to Style 4. Or skip style 2 and use 3 & 4.

This of course would require a complete change of the damage and/or effects of each style. Warranting the chance of missing an intermediate style on full chain execution and then not getting complete benefits.
This can be done with building a DD for the final style.
Where if you simply went from 1-4 it would be minimal. Whereas if you used all 4 styles it could be multiplicative and possibly have some other effects

Fri 14 May 2021 9:36 PM by Centenario

Maybe dev could create a google sheet with all style current on the left with growth/pre-req/bonusA/bonusD/followup/level and on the right side the new style or decision to remove and then on a third part the commentary for the decision. Its a bit of work, we could start class by class. Collaborative work.

Why?
- To have a little of an alpha for people and to discuss things before they get put into beta.
- To see the reasoning behind each decision (passion)
- To be able to have a larger pool of ideas to make a better decision (Populations with larger gene pools are more likely to survive)

Fri 14 May 2021 9:41 PM by soremir

Honestly, sounds great! Very excited for this. It will do a lot to keep the game fresh.

Do you have any idea of what the timeline is like for this? (as I am looking forward to it)

Fri 14 May 2021 10:06 PM by Saroi

Are there also plans to up Axe/Sword from Thane to be on the same damage table as Hammer? IIRC on the first style overhault that was planned.

Sat 15 May 2021 4:50 AM by Leafus

Saroi wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 10:06 PM
Are there also plans to up Axe/Sword from Thane to be on the same damage table as Hammer? IIRC on the first style overhault that was planned.

I echo this suggestion. No reason to have sword and axe on a lower table than hammer.

Sat 15 May 2021 5:12 AM by easytoremember

Leafus wrote: ↑
Sat 15 May 2021 4:50 AM
Saroi wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 10:06 PM
Are there also plans to up Axe/Sword from Thane to be on the same damage table as Hammer? IIRC on the first style overhault that was planned.

I echo this suggestion. No reason to have sword and axe on a lower table than hammer.

I think the class specializing in hammer reflects Thor's Mjollnir. Only thing that sucks is you wouldn't know about the damage difference without being told it's there, and on that point I don't like that you can't see the difference in damage among different classes using the same style in the delve of that style because the damage table is a hidden value. If there was a means of displaying the fact that hammer's table is higher on Thane than his other weapons it should stay that way.

Sat 15 May 2021 5:59 AM by mytummies

gruenesschaf wrote: Mandatory Goals:
Regardless of what else is decided, these are things that will happen as the current situation can more or less be called buggy.

i can't agree that it is buggy based on the arguments.

gruenesschaf wrote: Switch to the more accurate style damage formula
This could reasonably be done without noticeable changes to the current damage at common spec levels. In technical terms, we will move away from the approximating single growth rate per style and towards the base value + per spec gain value per style.

i don't believe that there has been testing here if it's claimed as less accurate. phoenix was given our code that we developed based on stringent and rigorous testing. it's accurate to within about 1-2% of retail damage in RvR. from the work we did, the theorized formulas on the wiki did not produce airtight results and can only attempt to give damage based on recent styles. these two problems make it impossible to fit it into recreating daoc or daoc from another era.

one would have to find a way to reproduce about 0% variance from retail daoc in melee systems for greater accuracy. at the same time, there's a proposed infinitely inaccurate, total custom revamp of class styles. i don't know how i am supposed to piece these two things together because they seem like opposing views.

gruenesschaf wrote: Variance
Especially because of the formula switch we’ll disable melee variance again a couple days before the style overhaul actually happens and will keep it disabled, aka always set to 25, for some time to better evaluate the style values. After the evaluation phase variance will make a return, however, it will then be a limited form: instead of rng 0 – 50 it will only be rng 15-35 or 20 – 30.

the 0-50 rng is accurate to retail.

gruenesschaf wrote: Overhaul
Then we come to the actual overhaul and the guiding principles for it:

It might be worth it to at least evaluate some unusual mechanics to achieve the basic style / weapon line requirements. For group viability that would usually mean positional snares, ideally back positional. For solos that would usually mean reactive stun and/or haste debuff.
The evaluation would most likely take the form of short tests to get actual feedback.

i am left wondering: is this classified as bug fixing or is it a subjective redesign of class styles?

i see them as two different things that should be packaged separately, otherwise it leads to confusion or obfuscates one from the other. one is purported to fix buggy game systems, which i argued against above. the other is for total custom design of class styles, for which their brokenness is purely subjective. altogether, developers should be careful they do not alienate players by falling into an increasingly homogenized, modern-era/customized daoc when the server's draw is as a classic experience.

Sat 15 May 2021 6:27 AM by

gruenesschaf

mytummies wrote: ↑
Sat 15 May 2021 5:59 AM
i don't believe that there has been testing here if it's claimed as less accurate. phoenix was given our code that we developed based on stringent and rigorous testing. it's accurate to within about 1-2% of retail damage in RvR. from the work we did, the theorized formulas on the wiki did not produce airtight results and can only attempt to give damage based on recent styles. these two problems make it impossible to fit it into recreating daoc or daoc from another era.

Not sure what code you're talking about, did it maybe get lost in translation and you mean you were part of those that did the growth rate testing that were pusblished e.g . https://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/realm_style_growths.html ?
Anyways, as for the accuracy: PA, Backstab and the "new" starter styles that deal the same low damage pretty much regardless of weapon spec, including at level 1, are kind of proof that a single growth rate per style ain't it. A growth rate, which in the end is basically a multiplier on the base damage, could never explain the fixed value of the starter style or the stealth opener scaling behavior.
However, back then the starter styles didn't exist making for the most part only the stealth opener the outlier and given that they actually have / had a special mechanic, ignoring the swing speed, it was entirely understandable to just accept that those use an entirely different formula thereby not undermining the growth rate theory. Further, given the way they actually used base and per spec values, except for the mentioned outlier, most styles are actually be representable as a single growth rate and be accurate for the common specs.

mytummies wrote: ↑
Sat 15 May 2021 5:59 AM
the 0-50 rng is accurate to retail.

There was no claim to the contrary.

mytummies wrote: ↑
Sat 15 May 2021 5:59 AM
i see them as two different things that should be packaged separately, otherwise it leads to confusion or obfuscates one from the other. one is purported to fix buggy game systems, which i argued against above. the other is for total custom design of class styles, for which their brokenness is purely subjective. altogether, developers should be careful they do not alienate players by falling into an increasingly homogenized, modern-era/customized daoc when the server's draw is as a classic experience.

The initial release will for the most part only deal with the mandatory goals as well as making comparable style lines usable via providing the basics. While that kind of by definition means the lines will become closer to one another / more the same, there isn't much lost compared to the current state in which there is only a single reasonably usable line for most classes as the other lines just don't have the basics / are objectively worse.
The next releases will then add line uniqueness and/via class specific things, given that much of that didn't exist in 1.65 except for the si classes and to a lesser extent assassin dw compared to light tank dw, it will appear custom.
However, the precedent is set with reaver / vw, even at the si release state, and at least the other hybrids not having thematically fitting style dd effects, e. g. thane / skald, seems just a result of the time when a class was released and not the core concept of hybrids just not having magical stuff on their styles.

Sat 15 May 2021 7:14 AM by Tulpa

What would this look like for champs?
Style with energy damage?
Style with energy debuff?

Sat 15 May 2021 7:19 AM by evert

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 15 May 2021 6:27 AM
skald

:eyes emoji:

Other than that I don’t really like where this is going, I would strongly advise you to leave as much as possible “as-is”. I don’t think it’s true that there is only one line per realm that’s useful or whatever, and I like the variety in having a better anytime in one line, better stuns in another, etc. Obviously some lines need fixing but nothing wrong with many others.

Sat 15 May 2021 7:41 AM by

gruenesschaf

evert wrote: ↑
Sat 15 May 2021 7:19 AM
Other than that I don’t really like where this is going, I would strongly advise you to leave as much as possible “as-is”. I don’t think it’s true that there is only one line per realm that’s useful or whatever, and I like the variety in having a better anytime in one line, better stuns in another, etc. Obviously some lines need fixing but nothing wrong with many others.

As is evidenced especially by the wild variety in midgard.

Anyways, the initial release will be for the most part a rather conservative upgrade, obviously with the effects shuffled around to account for the new requirements / chain and some updates to the effects like duration / bleed strength etc.
This would be an acceptable end result but it would at the same time be somewhat sad to keep to only the boring effects, especially for the hybrids, and with the lines pretty much being the same with only superficial differences.
We expect push back to some of the tests that are going to happen to find line uniqueness / class specific abilities but will, with the initial release, have a usable if a bit boring baseline to fall back to after each failed experiment.

Basically the experiments have the goal to push thematically fitting class specific effects as far as a majority is comfortable with to give actual line uniqueness, at least between different classes. Examples of where it is done well are the reaver and vw. Svgs show weird alternative ideas for non magical classes, however, it seems reasonable if the full / light tanks are limited to the basic effects. Given the vw/reaver precedent, this lack of effects can't imo really be called reasonable for the classic hybrids though.

Sat 15 May 2021 7:42 AM by byron

Saroi wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 10:06 PM
Are there also plans to up Axe/Sword from Thane to be on the same damage table as Hammer? IIRC on the first style overhault that was planned.

I like the idea that hammer is powerfull than Axe/Sword on Thanes since hammer is the symbol of Thor. The problem on that is that hammer styles has no special effects for Thanes a part maybe some little more damage at least for now.

Sat 15 May 2021 7:46 AM by

gruenesschaf

byron wrote: ↑
Sat 15 May 2021 7:42 AM
I like the idea that hammer is powerfull than Axe/Sword on Thanes since hammer is the symbol of Thor. The problem on that is that hammer styles has no special effects for Thanes a part maybe some little more damage at least for now.

Thane is a pretty big outlier with that though. There is however no real consistency, you have the VW with a single weapon line but at the same time have the reaver with a unique line where the others are just utterly useless.
One could argue that it should be similar for the thane but afaik it's the only class where the "nudge" towards a certain line is done via a different damage table value and not via access to / effects on the styles.

Sat 15 May 2021 7:49 AM by Blitze

1. I hope they fix the huge disparity between axe, sword n hammer.

Hammer has best anytime (low end), best sidestyle (snare), best backstyle (snare) & and best parry reactive chain (7s stun)

2. Don’t turn valewalkers into cakewalkers:
E.g. blizzard blade would need a Dmg nerf If it were to go to a 2part chain (same applies to Cobra in reaver block chain) And if reavers/VWs both still have awesome positionals they shouldnt have awesome anytimes too... ie don’t add conflag to anytime chain.

3. Boosting melee Warden, Bard n Friar. All classes now perform well as healers (Friars have had many buffs here). But this style review is a good way to help them have alternative melee specs. I am NOT saying give them the healstyles from live!
- going from friars 3part sidechain stun to a 2part will help. But also their excommunicate lvl 50 style needs a long look at.
- Warden(&Bard) need a better whole melee package and importantly more damage. This maybe time to give wardens shield without the extra skill points.
Or use my suggestion of giving warden & Friar Parry guard (Works same as shield guard but doesn’t stack with it)!

Sat 15 May 2021 7:59 AM by evert

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 15 May 2021 7:41 AM
As is evidenced especially by the wild variety in midgard.

Well as I said some lines need help, but it would be shame to mess too much with eg slash/thrust on a minstrel, both of which are viable and have their own strengths. But I will await further information, it’s certainly possible to do some updating well.

Sat 15 May 2021 5:18 PM by ExcretusMaximus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 15 May 2021 7:41 AM
We expect push back

Just do it.

Screw the crybabies who are averse to any change, no matter what it is or if it's for the good of the game or not. "Whaaaa, this is a classic server!" isn't an argument when it was never a classic server. Stop capitulating to the 20% of the server who do nothing but cry and threaten to leave if you make even the smallest of changes, please.

Sat 15 May 2021 6:14 PM by Hattrick

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sat 15 May 2021 5:18 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 15 May 2021 7:41 AM
We expect push back

Just do it.

Screw the crybabies who are averse to any change, no matter what it is or if it's for the good of the game or not. "Whaaaa, this is a classic server!" isn't an argument when it was never a classic server. Stop capitulating to the 20% of the server who do nothing but cry and threaten to leave if you make even the smallest of changes, please.

If you really think the people that went off about toy thing were "20% of the server", you truly live in a fantasy world.

Sat 15 May 2021 6:33 PM by Nephamael

3. Boosting melee Warden, Bard n Friar. All classes now perform well as healers (Friars have had many buffs here). But this style review is a good way to help them have alternative melee specs. I am NOT saying give them the healstyles from live!

Gruenesschaf explained earlier:

How exactly supporter (warden, bard, friar) styles are going to be handled hasn't been discussed yet. It could go any of these ways
1) Nothing acknowledging that they are "special" hybrids, aka just the basics, kind of like now
2) Going all in on their hybrid status making a weapon focused spec weirdly viable (could include heal procs, could be other supportive stuff to incentivize higher weapon specs and actually hitting things)
3) Mostly the basics with some minor hybrid flavor effects

The most likely way it will go is to start with 1 as part of the general stage 1 thing, then test 2 and finally end up with 3.

Number 2: making a weapon focused spec weirdly viable sounds exactly what we have been waiting and asking for, for a long time!
Can't wait to test it on my warden!

If the weapon+buff spec then ends up as 3) viable and well balanced it would be the dream and bring more flavor not just to solo, but also to gvg with melee friars wardens and maybe even bards being a viable option for some wild comps.

Sun 16 May 2021 3:35 AM by Lioucis

I just hope this means my zerker gets access to a side stun longer than 2 seconds in the hammer line, and no longer forced to spec hammer for snares....

Sun 16 May 2021 10:55 AM by Islandsbrygge

So many possibilities. I am looking forward to these changes. Go GO dev team

But it also scares me how the so called elites wants to be the ones dictating things - cause they know best, and by that will be able to balance things for the greater good.

Riiight.

Talking about the fear of cakewalkers. Sure when I play hib my Vw is not a cakewalker, its me being a cake eater - as I have a hard time getting groups in rvr. I bring my BM and I am invited. - Live Vw are a different class its a shadow of itself here on Phoenix. But sure elites with their rank 10+ would avoid not having cake carving through a Vw.

I hope you solve the issue with hitting side skills in 1v1 - fully agree with that point as other also has stated.

Sun 16 May 2021 11:08 AM by Irkeno

Islandsbrygge wrote: ↑
Sun 16 May 2021 10:55 AM
I hope you solve the issue with hitting side skills in 1v1 - fully agree with that point as other also has stated.

Movement is a skill element of the game. Like it or not. If you reject it /face is your friend.

Otherwise this quote from gruenes is phenomenally accurate

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 3:43 PM
That's why strafing to get positionals is still a thing here and has not been removed. In tab target mmos the strategical / tactical elements (cooldown management, positioning, target choice etc.) are what matter and aside from that individual, actual "gameplay skill" should start and end with movement, not who can pull up the most ingame windows and click things the fastest.

I still entirely reject the idea of clunky and weird user input being something that should be in any way expected or even rewarded, that is the sole reason why switch exists.

Mon 17 May 2021 6:58 AM by inoeth

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Sun 16 May 2021 11:08 AM
Islandsbrygge wrote: ↑
Sun 16 May 2021 10:55 AM
I hope you solve the issue with hitting side skills in 1v1 - fully agree with that point as other also has stated.

Movement is a skill element of the game. Like it or not. If you reject it /face is your friend.

Otherwise this quote from gruenes is phenomenally accurate

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 3:43 PM
That's why strafing to get positionals is still a thing here and has not been removed. In tab target mmos the strategical / tactical elements (cooldown management, positioning, target choice etc.) are what matter and aside from that individual, actual "gameplay skill" should start and end with movement, not who can pull up the most ingame windows and click things the fastest.

I still entirely reject the idea of clunky and weird user input being something that should be in any way expected or even rewarded, that is the sole reason why switch exists.

yes, but in other mmos you can not run through targets. thats what makes strafing in daoc an abusive game mechanic and not a skilled movement thing....
you know when back styles like leviathan are used like any timers something is off

Mon 17 May 2021 10:40 AM by Irkeno

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 17 May 2021 6:58 AM
yes, but in other mmos you can not run through targets. thats what makes strafing in daoc an abusive game mechanic and not a skilled movement thing....
you know when back styles like leviathan are used like any timers something is off

You never mastered movement or fought many rogues in WoW either I guess.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 3:43 PM
That's why strafing to get positionals is still a thing here and has not been removed. individual, actual "gameplay skill" should start and end with movement,

...if you’re just /sticking and not counterstrafing, the problem lies with you. Backstyles are the easiest to counter strafe and protect yourself against. Little bit of backwards movement and a slow curve to either side make it next to impossible. It’s also one of the essential tools to being a good melee hunter to try to land that backstun.

Mon 17 May 2021 11:54 AM by Blitze

Avoiding back styles is very possible on Phoenix, sometimes it takes a tad of endurance for a sprint.

Avoiding side styles in 1v1 is impossible here... no amount of backpedaling, Sprinting or /face(ing) will save you.

Mon 17 May 2021 4:10 PM by inoeth

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Mon 17 May 2021 10:40 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 17 May 2021 6:58 AM
yes, but in other mmos you can not run through targets. thats what makes strafing in daoc an abusive game mechanic and not a skilled movement thing....
you know when back styles like leviathan are used like any timers something is off

You never mastered movement or fought many rogues in WoW either I guess.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 3:43 PM
That's why strafing to get positionals is still a thing here and has not been removed. individual, actual "gameplay skill" should start and end with movement,

...if you’re just /sticking and not counterstrafing, the problem lies with you. Backstyles are the easiest to counter strafe and protect yourself against. Little bit of backwards movement and a slow curve to either side make it next to impossible. It’s also one of the essential tools to being a good melee hunter to try to land that backstun.

i guess you have never fought ppl like smoover... counterstrafe impossible

"sticking" lol do we reallly talk about that?

anyway, the mechanics are undoubtly very poor and i belive that the original coders did not consider this being abused this heavily.

Mon 17 May 2021 6:06 PM by Irkeno

inoeth wrote: i guess you have never fought ppl like smoover... counterstrafe impossible

Fought him plenty. He has good movement but definitely not impossible to stop. His reavers a good fight as is his sb but nothing I ever felt ‘cheated’ by. Very possible to stop the rears being automatic if you use your own movement.

Tue 18 May 2021 8:10 AM by Centenario

Please study warden case, where you can go 48-49 buff and 40-42 heal and still get a side snare of 15 seconds with 10 in blade.
The Friar can go 48 buff 41 heal and 18 staff to get the 19sec snare. But why would the friar be in 1500 range, when he cannot cast offensive/control spell and he has no bubble.

The Paladin's first viable snare is @21slash for 12sec snare.

I would say it's normal that the Paladin has a better snare than warden or friar. He can also get backsnare at 39 2handed, but that would be with slow weapon, not worth it, if somebody breaks your snare and you are also snared, you will easily loose the snared target.

Maybe then make all side snare available at 21 weapon and of the same duration (12sec), then a better version if you invest more points: a back snare 29 weapon for 15-23 seconds. Except for flavor lines like polearm/celtic spear/spear/2-hand that would get fancy styles. At least standardize the basic weaponlines and nerf a little the hib blade snare.

Tue 18 May 2021 8:18 AM by Centenario

Please study blademaster case, where the side-stun chain of 3-style with very high growth rate is a little OP.
Please try to have left-axe (zerk) dualwield(merc) and celtic dual(bm) be equivalent, then create class specific fancyness, but start from the same base.

I see nowadays that BM is almost standard for hib smallman and 8man where its good for both stun/peel/dps.
Maybe some extra incentives for rawtanks to make them more valuable is in order.

Tue 18 May 2021 8:20 AM by Centenario

Please advise when you will get rid of baseline stun for hib casters, it has implication in the balance of styles.
Example, its normal than BM/arms/champ are more trouble with physical stun or lower growth rate if magic stun is available on 4/8 group members and castable on the assist.

Tue 18 May 2021 9:08 AM by DJ2000

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 8:20 AM
Please advise when you will get rid of baseline stun for hib casters, it has implication in the balance of styles.
Example, its normal than BM/arms/champ are more trouble with physical stun or lower growth rate if magic stun is available on 4/8 group members and castable on the assist.

I just went to google search and typed in "hib caster stun".

I clicked on the 4th entry: https://www.ignboards.com/threads/hibernia-baseline-stun-end-the-insanity.452392731/

From 2002. Different time, different patch, same complaint. There are others from roughly the same time, but i just randomly clicked this one for no particular reason.

In all honesty. No need to get personal or anything.
What makes you think, that a "fruitless complaint" since 2002, would be considered 2021?

If the PM function wouldn't be broken I would have sent this as a PM, but no can do.
Here is my advice to you, with no ill intentions:
Take a break.

Tue 18 May 2021 9:18 AM by Centenario

Im just saying that if its not planned to remove it or standardize it to all realm's caster, then we have to consider some nerfs from the base for hib melees.

Tue 18 May 2021 9:54 AM by Astaa

Sure, if we can take away other realms utility too.

Tell you what, give everyone cloth armour, a stick and no abilities and all just pile in.

*Idea for an event! Make everyone a Luri and we have at least 1 GM on board.

Tue 18 May 2021 10:17 AM by

Uthred

Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 9:54 AM
*Idea for an event! Make everyone a Luri and we have at least 1 GM on board.

He is into Trolls now.

Tue 18 May 2021 10:44 AM by Bradekes

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 8:10 AM
Please study warden case, where you can go 48-49 buff and 40-42 heal and still get a side snare of 15 seconds with 10 in blade.
The Friar can go 48 buff 41 heal and 18 staff to get the 19sec snare. But why would the friar be in 1500 range, when he cannot cast offensive/control spell and he has no bubble.

A friar would go into melee because they get evade 5 which is greater mitigation to purple bubble. In this case warden/friar would be equally warranted to be in melee range.

Tue 18 May 2021 11:48 AM by easytoremember

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 9:08 AM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 8:20 AM
Please advise when you will get rid of baseline stun for hib casters, it has implication in the balance of styles.
Example, its normal than BM/arms/champ are more trouble with physical stun or lower growth rate if magic stun is available on 4/8 group members and castable on the assist.

I just went to google search and typed in "hib caster stun".

I clicked on the 4th entry: https://www.ignboards.com/threads/hibernia-baseline-stun-end-the-insanity.452392731/

From 2002. Different time, different patch, same complaint. There are others from roughly the same time, but i just randomly clicked this one for no particular reason.

In all honesty. No need to get personal or anything.
What makes you think, that a "fruitless complaint" since 2002, would be considered 2021?

If the PM function wouldn't be broken I would have sent this as a PM, but no can do.
Here is my advice to you, with no ill intentions:
Take a break.

dunno you people seem to love taking fruitless complaints of yesteryear and making them ripe with nothing more than "it's currentyear this change is long past due" and wahlah

Tue 18 May 2021 11:53 AM by Centenario

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 10:44 AM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 8:10 AM
Please study warden case, where you can go 48-49 buff and 40-42 heal and still get a side snare of 15 seconds with 10 in blade.
The Friar can go 48 buff 41 heal and 18 staff to get the 19sec snare. But why would the friar be in 1500 range, when he cannot cast offensive/control spell and he has no bubble.

A friar would go into melee because they get evade 5 which is greater mitigation to purple bubble. In this case warden/friar would be equally warranted to be in melee range.

We are talking about a main healer role. Your job is to cast spells. The snare is only if you or your teamates didnt manage to replace correctly.
I would accept my warden to be closer to tanks than a friar, cause at least a warden is running bubble (1250 range).
I wouldnt accept my friar to be close to tanks, he should be between 2k and 1500 maximum, closer to 2krange, while sorc/cabalist should be 1500-2k closer to 1500 range, cause the friar is casting heals at 2k range.

Tue 18 May 2021 12:13 PM by DJ2000

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 11:48 AM
dunno you people seem to love taking fruitless complaints of yesteryear and making them ripe with nothing more than "it's currentyear this change is long past due" and wahlah

? ? ?

Tue 18 May 2021 1:50 PM by gotwqqd

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 11:53 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 10:44 AM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 8:10 AM
Please study warden case, where you can go 48-49 buff and 40-42 heal and still get a side snare of 15 seconds with 10 in blade.
The Friar can go 48 buff 41 heal and 18 staff to get the 19sec snare. But why would the friar be in 1500 range, when he cannot cast offensive/control spell and he has no bubble.

A friar would go into melee because they get evade 5 which is greater mitigation to purple bubble. In this case warden/friar would be equally warranted to be in melee range.

We are talking about a main healer role. Your job is to cast spells. The snare is only if you or your teamates didnt manage to replace correctly.
I would accept my warden to be closer to tanks than a friar, cause at least a warden is running bubble (1250 range).
I wouldnt accept my friar to be close to tanks, he should be between 2k and 1500 maximum, closer to 2krange, while sorc/cabalist should be 1500-2k closer to 1500 range, cause the friar is casting heals at 2k range.

I’d expect a warden to be closer to a “tank” than a friar, but I expect a friar to be in close combat more than the warden.

Tue 18 May 2021 4:49 PM by Astaa

The world warden literally means guard. A warden should have defensive abilities, such as shield spec.

Tue 18 May 2021 10:30 PM by Hattrick

Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 4:49 PM
The world warden literally means guard. A warden should have defensive abilities, such as shield spec.

I wouldn't mind if wardens got shield spec, provided friars got their melee capabilities they had at release back. The devolution of the friar into nothing more than a 2nd rate healing class is sad.

Wed 19 May 2021 2:47 AM by Bradekes

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 10:30 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 18 May 2021 4:49 PM
The world warden literally means guard. A warden should have defensive abilities, such as shield spec.

I wouldn't mind if wardens got shield spec, provided friars got their melee capabilities they had at release back. The devolution of the friar into nothing more than a 2nd rate healing class is sad.

Everyone always says don't compare warden with friar when asking for buff to warden but if warden had even one melee oriented buff in this server friar would forget about all the love they've gotten here and scream for balance lol.

Wed 19 May 2021 3:02 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Hibernia doesn't need more buffs, they're already dominating the server.

Wed 19 May 2021 6:06 AM by Astaa

That's not via class balance though, that is through player activity. Albion has 1 leader that doesn't seem to play very often, Mid has 1 leader that half the realm refuses to follow, Hib has 3-4 main leaders and plenty that pick up when they aren't around.

Add to all that the sheer amount of relic tourists around.

Wed 19 May 2021 9:06 AM by inoeth

ppl always tend to believe that wardens would get it all if they had shield spec, but if they had, tehy would not be able to spec nurt and regrow to a high lvl.
they need to decide shield+nurt or shield+regrow or nurt+regrow and none of these specs can be considered OP.
but
with a shield spec wardens would be able to viable in a solo scenario just like friars have they choice to be either a healer or melee dps

still with 1.8 spec points ofc adding a spec line without increased spec points is stupid

Wed 19 May 2021 11:11 AM by Saroi

On Phoenix Warden has 1.5 spec points. If they would get shield and 1.8 spec points than you can get heal still high enough. With 42 shield, 45 Nurt and 10 in blades would be 35 heal. If you go 35 Shield for Sidestun, you can have 42 in Heal for red spec heal and 3 sec NS heal.

ofc if they get shield and still have 1.5 spec points it would look different.

Wed 19 May 2021 12:57 PM by inoeth

Saroi wrote: ↑
Wed 19 May 2021 11:11 AM
On Phoenix Warden has 1.5 spec points. If they would get shield and 1.8 spec points than you can get heal still high enough. With 42 shield, 45 Nurt and 10 in blades would be 35 heal. If you go 35 Shield for Sidestun, you can have 42 in Heal for red spec heal and 3 sec NS heal.

ofc if they get shield and still have 1.5 spec points it would look different.

you are right there would still a high heal spec but NS heal and slam would not work togehter
maybe a conclusion would be to increase spec points to just 1.7 or even 1.6 not sure here

Wed 19 May 2021 1:27 PM by Bradekes

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 19 May 2021 3:02 AM
Hibernia doesn't need more buffs, they're already dominating the server.

Most players that enjoy warden play expected this to have been done at launch and not expecting to be practically begging devs to give Warden some combat based buffs seeings they were so quick to give friar love from the beginning.

I do understand your point though, hib casters been getting all the love which I think may not have been as big of a request. They managed to keep the enchanting line useless while buffing enchanters though which is weird.

Wed 19 May 2021 2:14 PM by Centenario

The friar should get buffed as a utility caster, not a melee spot.
Amnesia or root or instas.

If you want him to go melee like a warden, then you need to run 2 clerics and 1 friar, and give pulsing bubble to the friar. To switch a theurg with a cleric.

Wed 19 May 2021 3:46 PM by byron

Saroi wrote: ↑
Wed 19 May 2021 11:11 AM
On Phoenix Warden has 1.5 spec points. If they would get shield and 1.8 spec points than you can get heal still high enough. With 42 shield, 45 Nurt and 10 in blades would be 35 heal. If you go 35 Shield for Sidestun, you can have 42 in Heal for red spec heal and 3 sec NS heal.

ofc if they get shield and still have 1.5 spec points it would look different.

Also a shaman can't spec 40 mending to have faster NS cure because he has to have higher aug for buffs and resists, a Thane needs to have low weapon skill point if he choose to have higher shield and SC ...It is a choice, if every class need to have available all the utility in all the lines together they would need to increase spec points for level for a lot of classes. If a runemaster wants the PBT he needs to spec suppression so he choose to go for utility and not for damage. Why warden should be different ?

Wed 19 May 2021 5:49 PM by Blitze

Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 19 May 2021 2:14 PM
The friar should get buffed as a utility caster, not a melee spot.
Amnesia or root or instas.

If you want him to go melee like a warden, then you need to run 2 clerics and 1 friar, and give pulsing bubble to the friar. To switch a theurg with a cleric.

No need to steal stuff from other classes... Also I’d hate Friar If it became a rooting/amnesia casting bard-lite.

I think friars as an option on the assist train would be lovely, atm they don’t do enough damage as an individual obviously and they shouldnt cos they are not a Merc/Reav! However, they also don’t provide enough passive defence with the lil heal procs to warrant an assist train spot.
The Staff Healstyles helped this (But this might be going to far)

I would suggest:
1. Allow their HoT to be castable when moving would help the 34/34/45 friars.
2. Give Friars a group version of their self absorb Buff (adjust the values to what seems sensible)
3. Make Friars self haste a group spell (2min reuse 38% haste)

————
Wardens could also get this 2min reuse group haste.

Wed 19 May 2021 6:30 PM by inoeth

Blitze wrote: ↑
Wed 19 May 2021 5:49 PM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 19 May 2021 2:14 PM
The friar should get buffed as a utility caster, not a melee spot.
Amnesia or root or instas.

If you want him to go melee like a warden, then you need to run 2 clerics and 1 friar, and give pulsing bubble to the friar. To switch a theurg with a cleric.

No need to steal stuff from other classes... Also I’d hate Friar If it became a rooting/amnesia casting bard-lite.

I think friars as an option on the assist train would be lovely, atm they don’t do enough damage as an individual obviously and they shouldnt cos they are not a Merc/Reav! However, they also don’t provide enough passive defence with the lil heal procs to warrant an assist train spot.
The Staff Healstyles helped this (But this might be going to far)

I would suggest:
1. Allow their HoT to be castable when moving would help the 34/34/45 friars.
2. Give Friars a group version of their self absorb Buff (adjust the values to what seems sensible)
3. Make Friars self haste a group spell (2min reuse 38% haste)

————
Wardens could also get this 2min reuse group haste.

would rather give that haste to palas than friars tbh. friars alrdy have their spot as a second healer, palas still struggle.
i dont think friars need anything atm, they are good as a supporter in grps and are really nasty as solo.
pala ist really strong solo but lacks grp utility. cele maybe as a grp insta but not affecting the pala himself?!
warden is ok-good as grp but gimped as solo.

Wed 19 May 2021 7:03 PM by Beeblebrox

Aren't we getting off topic with the talk of giving this or that ability to Frair/Warden/Palidin, etc? The topic is melee styles isn't it?

Perhaps we should be posting in the suggestion forum instead.

Wed 19 May 2021 8:25 PM by inoeth

Beeblebrox wrote: ↑
Wed 19 May 2021 7:03 PM
Aren't we getting off topic with the talk of giving this or that ability to Frair/Warden/Palidin, etc? The topic is melee styles isn't it?

Perhaps we should be posting in the suggestion forum instead.

well giving wardens shieldspec is kind of related isnt it?
but you are right, it was not exactly about styles recently for the most part.

on topic: give hunters an anytime ASR(chain) and increase spear back style stun to 7s

Wed 19 May 2021 8:34 PM by Magesty

Personally, I want to hear about more ways the server can be transformed into a schizo-dystopian 8v8 hellscape.

Maybe if we gave Paladins speed 6...?

Seriously though, let’s focus on the real conversation: updating the leviathan visual/sound effects.

Wed 19 May 2021 10:54 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Astaa wrote: ↑
Wed 19 May 2021 6:06 AM
That's not via class balance though, that is through player activity.

Doesn't matter what the reasons are, basic design philosophy says you don't buff those in power.

Sun 23 May 2021 4:12 AM by

gruenesschaf

Starting on Monday the 24th the variance will be disabled / set to 25. Later that day or on Tuesday the initial version / new baseline of the styles will be published in some form to allow some scrutiny and/or feedback. The actual implementation of the styles would follow at the end of the week.

Please note that this new baseline is pretty much just there to cover the mandatory goals and thereby represents just a straight up upgrade from the current styles to allow for the new style requirements. The existing effect types will be retained for the most part, that means VW, Reaver and Savage will retain their more interesting effects whereas the other classes will keep to their more basic effects.
On top of this new baseline some experiments will be run over the following weeks. The goal would be to end up with class specific style effects for at least the hybrid classes, similar to what is already the case for vw/reaver/svg and for the non hybrid classes the goal would be to give the lines some identity if there isn't one already in the baseline.
For the damage hybrids (thane, skald, paladin, champion) this should be rather straight forward, especially in case of thane, but for the support hybrids like warden and friar it will most likely take a couple iterations, same and maybe even more so for the bard.
For the supporter hybrids the basic question pretty much is what does a full weapon spec mean, is it all to further their support capabilities (e. g. heal procs, group beneficial stuff) or does a full weapon spec mostly mean solo / damage capabilities at the cost of their support viability.

Sun 23 May 2021 7:45 AM by Astaa

Looking forward to it!

How will you manage spec lines that are shared though? LW for example, Hero/champ. Would they essentially become 2 separate lines?

Sun 23 May 2021 10:49 AM by DJ2000

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 4:12 AM
Starting on Monday the 24th the variance will be disabled / set to 25. Later that day or on Tuesday the initial version / new baseline of the styles will be published in some form to allow some scrutiny and/or feedback. The actual implementation of the styles would follow at the end of the week.
Please note that this new baseline is pretty much just there to cover the mandatory goals and thereby represents just a straight up upgrade from the current styles to allow for the new style requirements. The existing effect types will be retained for the most part, that means VW, Reaver and Savage will retain their more interesting effects whereas the other classes will keep to their more basic effects.

*thumps up*

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 4:12 AM
On top of this new baseline some experiments will be run over the following weeks. The goal would be to end up with class specific style effects for at least the hybrid classes, similar to what is already the case for vw/reaver/svg and for the non hybrid classes the goal would be to give the lines some identity if there isn't one already in the baseline.

*slightly worried, but thumps up*

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 4:12 AM
For the damage hybrids (thane, skald, paladin, champion) this should be rather straight forward, especially in case of thane, ...

Will result in a 1v1 hierarchy shift among the melee's. ok.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 4:12 AM
... but for the support hybrids like warden and friar it will most likely take a couple iterations, same and maybe even more so for the bard.

Warden, Friar and Bard.
... Warden, ... Friar ...and Bard
oh snap.
i'm shivering already lol

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 4:12 AM
For the supporter hybrids the basic question pretty much is what does a full weapon spec mean, is it all to further their support capabilities (e. g. heal procs, group beneficial stuff) or does a full weapon spec mostly mean solo / damage capabilities at the cost of their support viability.

Yep, thats what its coming down to.
Which pretty much means: (imho)
39 and above = the more crazy stuff Solo/Damage and support
29 - 39 = the complete basic stuff with a hint of solo/damage and support utility
1 - 29 = most basic stuff.

btw, this is just a guess. iam not asking or requesting them to make it like this.

EDIT:
i really do hope that the old Taunt/de-taunt styles get reworked into some kind of buff/stance and make room for more interesting stuff to add; or at least be put as your first 2 starting ones to make room for the important stuff later on in that line.

Sun 23 May 2021 10:49 AM by Centenario

I have been working on the style overhaul, and made a google sheet, to be able to compare the data and verify that the system (growth rate/hit bonus/etc...) works correctly and is balanced for each style.
Implications for special lines (DW/2H/LA/etc...) need to be studied but it is almost good for the basic weapon lines. (see metadata sheet)

If you are interested to contribute or have a look please check this link:
=Google Sheet Style Overhaul v2=

At the moment only filled out and prototyped for Alb Thrust, crush, slash.

Maybe its a little late and Gruene has already decided.
I didnt wan't to put it out before it was at least 50% done, but I didnt spend enough time on it (12 hours at least for just the first 2 alb lines, the beginning and the formula is the hardest part)

Sun 23 May 2021 1:54 PM by

gruenesschaf

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 10:49 AM
i really do hope that the old Taunt/de-taunt styles get reworked into some kind of buff/stance and make room for more interesting stuff to add; or at least be put as your first 2 starting ones to make room for the important stuff later on in that line.

Experiments like that will come at the very end when we're mostly "happy" with the lines. I personally think different methods to get the positional snares / taunts / similar and thereby opening up those styles for other, maybe even situational, effects could be very much useful but that is a rather obvious departure from the normal melee / style gameplay and hence there should at least be a really solid / usable base to fall back to after a day or two of testing.

Sun 23 May 2021 1:59 PM by evert

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 4:12 AM
but for the support hybrids like warden and friar it will most likely take a couple iterations, same and maybe even more so for the bard.
For the supporter hybrids the basic question pretty much is what does a full weapon spec mean, is it all to further their support capabilities (e. g. heal procs, group beneficial stuff) or does a full weapon spec mostly mean solo / damage capabilities at the cost of their support viability.

Seems like there is something missing here, where is the mid support hybrid? Maybe you can take this opportunity to add that, the weapon lines even come ready with all the procs and stuff

Sun 23 May 2021 2:37 PM by DJ2000

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 1:54 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 10:49 AM
i really do hope that the old Taunt/de-taunt styles get reworked into some kind of buff/stance and make room for more interesting stuff to add; or at least be put as your first 2 starting ones to make room for the important stuff later on in that line.

Experiments like that will come at the very end when we're mostly "happy" with the lines. I personally think different methods to get the positional snares / taunts / similar and thereby opening up those styles for other, maybe even situational, effects could be very much useful but that is a rather obvious departure from the normal melee / style gameplay and hence there should at least be a really solid / usable base to fall back to after a day or two of testing.

For sure, that stuff is for phase 3 "code-name:Silent Hill". %&$ will get crazy/scary.
Prolly better to not mention too much about it currently.

This initial start is phase 1 aka "Normal Hill".

Mon 24 May 2021 1:49 PM by Sagz

evert wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 1:59 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 4:12 AM
but for the support hybrids like warden and friar it will most likely take a couple iterations, same and maybe even more so for the bard.
For the supporter hybrids the basic question pretty much is what does a full weapon spec mean, is it all to further their support capabilities (e. g. heal procs, group beneficial stuff) or does a full weapon spec mostly mean solo / damage capabilities at the cost of their support viability.

Seems like there is something missing here, where is the mid support hybrid? Maybe you can take this opportunity to add that, the weapon lines even come ready with all the procs and stuff

I agree, the Valkyrie filled that spot, now you would heave to remove a lot of the stuff as far as cone aoe shear etc, but realistically, Mid has the least amount of classes as it is, 1 more wouldn't hurt or be game breaking.

Mon 24 May 2021 4:48 PM by Reklewt

It's my personal opinion that removing melee variance, as well as removing some of the variance in hitting 3-part chains (chance to miss) by changing it to 2 is a bad move for the game. I play a shadowblade, and I've played shadowzerker spec (with a beautiful 3-part back chain) as well as the critblade spec with a 3-part evade chain and 3-part PA chain. 3-part chains are one of the most rewarding parts of this game. I don't feel like removing them will be a positive change.

I do believe that certain lines need some help, but I think that this could be done in a way that exacerbates their strengths in a positive way. For example, Sword on Mid, with Ragnarok, should be a VERY hard-hitting line (but not necessarily a good snaring line), but it just isn't. The growth rate isn't very good and I can't really pinpoint what it is, but 2handers feel pretty weak on Mid in general. I remember 2handed Sword Berserkers absolutely thrashing stuff back in the day (this may have been right after ToA released, admittedly, it was a long time ago)... Anyways, my point is, I am in favor of making some positive changes to spec lines but I don't think 3-part chains should be the target.

Mon 24 May 2021 10:19 PM by Astaa

Sagz wrote: ↑
Mon 24 May 2021 1:49 PM
evert wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 1:59 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 4:12 AM
but for the support hybrids like warden and friar it will most likely take a couple iterations, same and maybe even more so for the bard.
For the supporter hybrids the basic question pretty much is what does a full weapon spec mean, is it all to further their support capabilities (e. g. heal procs, group beneficial stuff) or does a full weapon spec mostly mean solo / damage capabilities at the cost of their support viability.

Seems like there is something missing here, where is the mid support hybrid? Maybe you can take this opportunity to add that, the weapon lines even come ready with all the procs and stuff

I agree, the Valkyrie filled that spot, now you would heave to remove a lot of the stuff as far as cone aoe shear etc, but realistically, Mid has the least amount of classes as it is, 1 more wouldn't hurt or be game breaking.

I genuinely think they should make an exception for Mid and allow valks, with a few tweeks.

Mon 24 May 2021 11:53 PM by

gruenesschaf

Initial first phase available here: https://playphoenix.online/charplan/styles.html
Please ignore everything except for styles and their effects on that charplan, the other parts may or may not be up to date.
The initial phase should cover the mandatory goals while also doing some effort to make more lines usable for many classes. It's expected that something will have been missed or just be plain wrong. Please report such issues here in the thread.

Tue 25 May 2021 12:41 AM by Cruella

Took only like 1 minute to see the first "changes". Like ...albion dual wield lvl50 frontstyle gone and armsman losing anytime snare. jesus fugn christ.... here we go again.

ops:

Tue 25 May 2021 12:47 AM by Kwall0311

Cruella wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 12:41 AM
...albion dual wield lvl50 frontstyle gone and armsman losing anytime snare.

Looks like Infs still get Dual shadows frontal, just switches for merc.

Tue 25 May 2021 12:48 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Cruella wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 12:41 AM
Took only like 1 minute to see the first "changes". Like ...albion dual wield lvl50 frontstyle gone and armsman losing anytime snare. jesus fugn christ.... here we go again. ops:

They said they were getting rid of anytime snares for all realms and equalizing snare durations based on swing speed months ago, quit your bitching.

Tue 25 May 2021 12:54 AM by Centenario

How about getting hero form on armsman, then?
The zerk sidestun combo looks OP.
Hunter sword spec looks superior to spear.
Celtic spear got a nice upgrade.
Polearm seems trash
Scout slash could be good.
Thrust spec meh
Lots of bleeds everywhere.

These are first impressions, quickly on the phone.

Tue 25 May 2021 1:36 AM by Akhilio

Just a question, how is Blades and Pierce not superior to Slash and Thrust in almost every way? Better versions of ASR accessible with styles that do more dmg (blade 39 anytime style line) (Dragonspider gets the 8 sec stun 6 trained levels sooner, and functionally is slightly better than Dragonfang including the defense penalty)?

Bleeds look similar so that's fine.

Thrust got gutted with removal of 2 sec stun and 1 tap stuns, despite being limited by 3.9 speed weapons.

That's at first glance, correct me if I'm wrong.

Tue 25 May 2021 2:09 AM by Magesty

I hope to see some changes to Polearm and Dual Wield. These styles are a direct nerf to those two weapon lines.

Losing Defender's Rage and Dual Shadows while hybrids receive across the board buffs to all of their lines is... unfortunate. Especially considering heavy tanks have not received any of the buffs they had on live.

The absurd access to combat speed debuffs in so many lines is unhealthy. This isn't ToA with buff bots. Combat speed debuffs in general need to be kept at a reasonable distribution and value. If those aren't either scaled back or balanced out with other effects the lines that don't have comparable access to them are going to be unusable in solo play. A 20%+ debuff is extremely powerful and needs to be treated as such.

I'm guessing these DD proc values aren't going to see the server?

Given the nature of cheesing side positionals in this game I had hoped to not see those becoming preeminent. It appears a conscious choice is being made to make that a cornerstone of melee combat. I don't think this is particularly fun, and I'd prefer not to have to abuse it, but I can do it. A lot of people that might otherwise enjoy soloing might not be able to say the same and will essentially be cut out from being able to compete on all but a limited number of classes. All while having to endure players easily side stunning/chaining off of them.

I feel like these styles are pretty close to straight copied over from live, which is an understandable starting point, but changes made over time on the official servers were not made in a vacuum, and I hope that these are thoroughly scoped out and adjusted to better fit in with the current ruleset and meta.

Tue 25 May 2021 2:11 AM by SgtGator

Looks like Shadowzerker is getting gutted, losing 34% ASR in Axe line (made a 2 part 30% AND 50 spec) and 50 CS evade chain is gonna be a must, but that will cause low LA spec so MH gonna be like 90-95% max OH 75% tops on dmg.

Tue 25 May 2021 2:45 AM by lurker

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 24 May 2021 11:53 PM
Initial first phase available here: https://playphoenix.online/charplan/styles.html
Please ignore everything except for styles and their effects on that charplan, the other parts may or may not be up to date.
The initial phase should cover the mandatory goals while also doing some effort to make more lines usable for many classes. It's expected that something will have been missed or just be plain wrong. Please report such issues here in the thread.

I took 15 mins to take a look over a few classes I have or know well. There are some interesting changes here and I'm sure as you progress you will Ballance and tweak things. I can broadly get on board with it.

My main concern is funding this... I have atleast two toons that will need skill and race respec along with template changes. 😰 Big cost being the race respects.

Even then I'm worried any skill respects might be a waste during the testing period if you roll back some changes.

Tue 25 May 2021 3:08 AM by boridi

Thane Hammer line -
Are Frost Hammer, Lambast, and Mjolnir's Fury supposed to have no effects?

Tue 25 May 2021 3:16 AM by Drunkstains

Looks terrible. Just let us play the damn game. Don't need events every weekend. Don't need unnecessary changes. Just. Let. Us. Play.

Tue 25 May 2021 3:20 AM by Tulpa

You're going to break hib large weapon styles this is absolutely ridiculous.

What happened to starting slow guys.

You're just going to turn the world upside down again and everyone's going to scream and lose their s***.

Tue 25 May 2021 3:33 AM by easytoremember

is Wild Cat's damage like PA/BS where it's unrelated to 1h/2h?

Tue 25 May 2021 3:57 AM by Ardri

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 24 May 2021 11:53 PM
Initial first phase available here: https://playphoenix.online/charplan/styles.html
Please ignore everything except for styles and their effects on that charplan, the other parts may or may not be up to date.
The initial phase should cover the mandatory goals while also doing some effort to make more lines usable for many classes. It's expected that something will have been missed or just be plain wrong. Please report such issues here in the thread.

Most changes seem okay to be honest. My 2c below.

Thane got nothing and arguably had it's snares nerfed. Please give dd style love. Most other melee classes were buffed and some given free snares with no spec costs (savage/reaver etc). Overall though, it just seems like another tank buff. Casters going to need something soon.

Tue 25 May 2021 4:23 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Ardri wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 3:57 AM
Casters going to need something soon.

You mean like the six months of buffs they've gotten in the last ... six months?

Tue 25 May 2021 4:38 AM by SB1999

I'm ok with most things, but one really stands out.

Blunt for Blademaster:

LvL 50 style-
Anytime
222-at 74 !?!
10 sec stun!?!

It has pre 1.65 Berserker growth on an anytime style (the closest other anytime is 160 at 74)..... WITH a 10 sec stun....on an anytime... no chain ....who is proofing this?! That is OP in any universe, including the pipedream universe...

I can see 6 sec stun on a chain for a 50 anytime chain or with a 180 at 74 anytime for a 50 style, no stun , but what's proposed is actually imbalancing as hell and you wont see another type of Blademaster other than Blunt, why would you?

I mean if you want Superman, you just made him.

Tue 25 May 2021 4:46 AM by ExcretusMaximus

SB1999 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 4:38 AM
I mean if you want Superman, you just made him.

Meh, they give up any semblance of shield spec to get it.

The damage could probably be lower, but I don't really see the problem with the stun component, and before someone says it, no I do not play Hibernia.

Tue 25 May 2021 5:13 AM by bculpepper

I play mostly Skald and SB. I have a RR5 Inf as well I don't play as much right now so my perspective is looking at those lines.

1) Skald looks interesting. Not sure why there are after block styles on sword - could those be moved to after parry or maybe after evade.
2) Assassins - On paper, Ripper looks way overpowered. AFAIK it looks like the hardest hitting style off-evade there is. It was always a big style but currently at the end of a 4-part chain frankly if you got hit with ripper you already took the first 3 of the chain and you were going down anyway. Now its the 2nd part of a chain and it has a massive damage in addition to a 20 to-hit and a 10 defense bonus?
3) Infiltrator - You added a lot of high damage styles in the high spec areas but of the 3 assassins the infs are going to have access to them much easier. Ripper is the best example. A RR10 inf will have 50 CS and 45 DW. They will hit like crazy. These styles come from live where the spec point difference between infs and ns/sb is only 3.5% more points. On phoenix the infs have 14% more spec points to spend. You need to reduce the inf spec points if you keep ripper where it is.

Edit:
**I Just noticed that live has ripper at the end of the 3-part chain and you made it at the end of the 2-part chain and kept the damage the same as live? If you think you hear complaints about assassins being OP now - wait till this goes in....

Tue 25 May 2021 5:18 AM by SB1999

Its not that they lose shield spec..... It's that they don't have to shield spec or would ever want to with this option, A a longer stun with a to hit bonus with better damage on an anytime style. You have a 50/50/28 spec with a longer stun than one with a 42 shield spec. Most only spec shield to get the stun, as a light tank you usually wants to just use both weapons, its more damage. How many light tanks you see with a 50 weapon, 42 shield, 39 parry spec?.. the only reason you spec shield past engage is slam for a light tank.. I just don't see how someone doesn't see that as broken as hell to have an anytime 10 sec stun on a dual wielding class.

Hell, I kinda hope it stays, I'll roll a bluntmaster immediately, i'm ready for my Superman cape...

That still doesn't mean it isn't broken as hell....

Tue 25 May 2021 5:24 AM by evert

I really don’t get it. Thought you would do some minor changes instead of completely gutting lines.

Let’s take minstrel for example, no more thrust 2-part snare, instead you get the exact same asr from the side AND as a 2-part. Great planning there. Slash now the kite spec for some reason (with the custom changes here the bleed-kite minstrel is gonna be funny) and also the only line in the game without an asr. Maybe you got something mixed up there?

Really don’t know why these changes are necessary, will just change from one spec being preferred to another. Giving everyone asr isn’t the answer, and removing core things like pole anytime snare is just silly.

Edit: and what on earth is the reasoning for changing thanes from having side and back snare in hammer to having side and back snare in axe? Just to mess with people and make then retemplate for no real reason? So you can point to all the axe thanes and say “look we fixed axe!”?

Tue 25 May 2021 6:21 AM by Saroi

SB1999 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 4:38 AM
I'm ok with most things, but one really stands out.

Blunt for Blademaster:

LvL 50 style-
Anytime
222-at 74 !?!
10 sec stun!?!

It has pre 1.65 Berserker growth on an anytime style (the closest other anytime is 160 at 74)..... WITH a 10 sec stun....on an anytime... no chain ....who is proofing this?! That is OP in any universe, including the pipedream universe...

I can see 6 sec stun on a chain for a 50 anytime chain or with a 180 at 74 anytime for a 50 style, no stun , but what's proposed is actually imbalancing as hell and you wont see another type of Blademaster other than Blunt, why would you?

I mean if you want Superman, you just made him.

I think it is a mistake or something. The Style is supposed to be a followup from the lv 39 after parry. Or atleast on live it is like they. Probably forget that when they made the charplaner.

Tue 25 May 2021 6:36 AM by Saroi

1, PA has higher dmg and a strong bleed. Will the damage/bleed be reduced? Or hopefully will you revert the ridiculous buff, that enervating hits before PA? Seeing that PA does more damage now, I see no reason this buff stays in. The main targets like cloth or other vulnerable targets will take more damage now then the poison does. Looking at tanks, PA hits somewhat 300 dmg + enervating losing like 600 HP. So after this buff, Sins will most definitely reduce the HP over 1k right at the beginning on Tanks.

2, The live styles have high bleeds. Basically 2 styles and you are on bleed cap. Will the bleed stacking be removed? This is just stupid for pure tanks, because as it is now, already so much damage is caused by other stuff then weapon and it all bypasses the advantage you supposed to have in better armor.

3, Since melees are doing more damage now. Will the Dot buff that happened back then for it to be more consistent but also higher than before be lowered or reverted? This again is something like point 2, making so much damage bypass any armor and making every normal DD or LT proc pretty much useless, because their damage never comes close to that of the dots.

I personally think style changes is a good idea, especially about decent anytimers(Have 50 CD NS or Two hand Pala which have such shit anytimers atm). But as listed above, higher damage styles should be looked at with some changes/buffs you already made in the game.

Tue 25 May 2021 6:56 AM by Noashakra

Yeah now a two part chain with the first style with no hit bonus snares for 20s when the side snare slash slow for 14s. It makes no sense.
You got rid of the 2s/6s/9s stuns of the infiltrator... Why? I don't get it...

Tue 25 May 2021 7:08 AM by borodino1812

Must admit I would have thought that Thanes would get a DD proc style. The changes seem rather radical apart from that. Going to need some tweaking.

Tue 25 May 2021 7:20 AM by Astaa

I certainly like the look of what you have done with CS and LW for hero, slightly disappointed that LW reactives from enemy parry and block are removed but that's pretty minor. Lots of options on style use now too.

Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Edit, and people complaining about having to re-template. Why would you not have a capped, weaponless template in the first place?

Edit, edit...and casters complaining, haha, good one, you have had endless boosts for months, tanks turn now.

Tue 25 May 2021 7:43 AM by Astaa

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 12:54 AM
How about getting hero form on armsman, then?

Plate on a hero then too please.

Not all realms are the same.

Tue 25 May 2021 7:48 AM by evert

Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 7:20 AM
Edit, and people complaining about having to re-template. Why would you not have a capped, weaponless template in the first place?

Tue 25 May 2021 7:50 AM by Astaa

evert wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 7:48 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 7:20 AM
Edit, and people complaining about having to re-template. Why would you not have a capped, weaponless template in the first place?

But why? If you sinking that much plat into a template then you should only ever do it once and capping +all melee is basic.

Tue 25 May 2021 8:36 AM by evert

Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 7:50 AM
evert wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 7:48 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 7:20 AM
Edit, and people complaining about having to re-template. Why would you not have a capped, weaponless template in the first place?

But why? If you sinking that much plat into a template then you should only ever do it once and capping +all melee is basic.

Maybe people don’t plan their templates around hypothetical future style changes?

And the difference between a full weaponless thane temp and one with, say, fixed dragonstorm/crafted LT 2h is not trivial.

Tue 25 May 2021 8:37 AM by Noashakra

evert wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 8:36 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 7:50 AM
evert wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 7:48 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 7:20 AM
Edit, and people complaining about having to re-template. Why would you not have a capped, weaponless template in the first place?

But why? If you sinking that much plat into a template then you should only ever do it once and capping +all melee is basic.

Maybe people don’t plan their templates around hypothetical future style changes?

And maybe people don't want to farm 70+plats when they have a job and a family

Tue 25 May 2021 8:48 AM by Astaa

I am well aware of how much templates cost and I also work, look after a house and family etc. Point stands, buy cheap, buy twice.

Then there is waaa, only 1 spec line is viable, then waaa you made other spec lines viable. Bizarre.

Maybe I am reading it wrong?

Conquer
Level29
To Hit Bonus10
Defense Bonus-15
RequirementPositional: Back
Damage per Level 300
Damage at 29 100
Damage at 65 208
Damage at 74 235
Endurance5
Hindered
Level50
Damage TypeNatural
Duration 19s
Range 500
TargetEnemy
TypeSnare
Value60

With side style second part in chain, a stun.

Tue 25 May 2021 9:40 AM by Irkeno

Vw frontal snare seems to be in?

Assassin groups will get stronger with the positional stuns.

Ratfang 2s stun gone on inf.

I understood you were considering keeping iconic armsman styles, which seems to have been missed currently?

Reaver side chain does less dmg than rear despite being 2 part and no lifeleech. No point using this chain over levi.

Tue 25 May 2021 10:10 AM by byron

noob question : lvl 74 damage means that you need to have the weapon skill at 74 ? RR14 ? And if you have, for example , 69 in total weapon skill: do you will do more damage versus 65 weapon skill or it will be the same ?

EDIT: I like the idea that melee snares are quite nerfed with these changes for duration, effect and positional styles... it will quite change the game. But these changes imho need to be balanced with other aspects of the game so : please nerf the inifinite kiting thanks to endu potions. At least for groups formed with more than 4 people.

Tue 25 May 2021 10:14 AM by Zonartica

When the patch will comes ?

Tue 25 May 2021 10:52 AM by Saroi

byron wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:10 AM
noob question : lvl 74 damage means that you need to have the weapon skill at 74 ? RR14 ? And if you have, for example , 69 in total weapon skill: do you will do more damage versus 65 weapon skill or it will be the same ?

That is just an example for the damage with 74. There are 3 Different levels shown. The damage when you get it, then 65 and 74. You also see damage per level. So yes, 69 will do more damage than 65

Tue 25 May 2021 11:15 AM by byron

Saroi wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:52 AM
That is just an example for the damage with 74. There are 3 Different levels shown. The damage when you get it, then 65 and 74. You also see damage per level. So yes, 69 will do more damage than 65

Thanks mate

I thought they were fixed values.

Tue 25 May 2021 12:21 PM by Tashkent

It's probably just missing in the charplan, but there is no mid spear front chain with asr and bleed.

Tue 25 May 2021 12:28 PM by Tyrlaan

Anybody else notice all snares are still at 60%? Live has them at 40% with those (many more) new snare styles.

For Comparison: http://www.excidio.net/charplaner/

It´s gonna be even more ridiculous with all the melee snares, especially from those (self-)peeling 1.5x hybrids (Bards, Wardens, Minstrels, Friars) who themselves don´t need or want to get into close combat to be useful. On live people can at least counter some with snare reactives (those who don´t have snares of their own) or Charge, Grapple and many other abilities... ironically all these snares make melee even less useful because you spend most of your time crawling trying to get somewhere. Heck if you don´t want Charge, make some ability to reduce/ignore melee CC at least for all tanks (and I mean tanks, not Friars, Wardens and the like who pretty much have the best of both worlds already with Determination, melee snare styles and 1.0x spell lines on a 1.5x class).

Mercs without front style DS and without a back snare... while Reavers get a back and side snare (and a DD proc anytime) in Flex. Don´t get me wrong, I like the Reaver changes (also making Levi Spirit), would love to see something similar for Thanes (VWs are crazy with those high DD procs 2nd in a 360° positional arc and a AE melee snare style) but looks like many of these style lines are still "under construction"? Zerks and Savages still need some form of anytime (or front) stun, so much better in the other realms to have climbers who can Slam/instant stun so people don´t jump off or use a door to be safe.

Tue 25 May 2021 12:28 PM by DJ2000

I did a small round-up of the first attempt for Hibernia (the enemies i was facing the most), and it seems it's a bit changed from back then: https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/26586-style-changes?page=14#p146143

So i might do another one, and write down my initial thoughts.

Bard:
Blades: Snares: 34 back (19 sec.); 10 side (14sec.)
Block: -
Parry: -
Evade: 4 ASR (16%) - 12 BLEED (13); 21 BLEED (20) - 25 ASR (26%); at 29 a single style with a 6sec. stun, the only stun in the entire line.
Anytime: 2-chain with an ASR (30%) on follow-up (18 - 39) + nice anytime at 44 (will be hard to go for spec-wise)
Back: 34 SNARE (19 sec.) - 50 BLEED (32); highest damage chain, but the 50 followup is far outside the reach a Bard could ever go for
Front: -
Side: 10 SNARE (14 sec.) - 15 ASR (20%); might be the only 2 styles a bard could ever have ...or needs.
*
SOLO: Going higher than 39 Blades for a solo minded Bard will be tough; while going lower would put the next best ASR on a evade followup, which is unlikely to be ever used, or on the sidechain being 10 snare - 15 ASR, which seems the better option, but would result in rather weak melee line again for the bard, due to low spec, and would also narrow the playstyle to basicaly 1 way to play.

Blunt:
Snares: 25 back (20 sec.); on a 10 - 21 side followup (15 sec.)
34 Anytime with +10 toHit/def seems rather strong
After evade stun (3 sec.) at 4, which is the only available stun; and an after Enemy evade chain with nice dmg, but that is rather useless unless the bard feels confident to fight someone with low health without his side-chain kite shenanigans
*In fact, if a bard would ever solo. Blunt is the weapon line of choice. 34 Blunt gets all u can ever need, after 39 is the after parry chain .... and the bard has no parry.
Strong anytimer + easy sidechain access providing Snare+ASR does help out the Bard tremendously, if they ever dare to run solo. All of it with 34 Blunt and the fact that all important styles have +10 toHit is kinda nice.

Blademaster:
Blades:
mostly same as Bard.

Blunt:
Snares: 25 back (20 sec.); on a 10 - 21 side followup (15 sec.); 39 after parry (15 sec.)
Like last time the 50 anytime stun (10 sec.) sticks out the most, other than that there is also a 34 anytime which is lower damage but does additionally provide +10 def
Other stuns are at 4 (3 sec.) that could possibly be used as bait in a 1v1.
*Side chain being 10 ASR (20%) into a 21 SNARE is the only ASR access for the BM with Blunt, so expect them to "dance".
Blunt provides no after block, which usually is the stand-in for the stuns in the line.
Overall, if it weren't for the 10 sec anytime STUN (which is also the highest damage style in the line), blunt is actually weaker when compared to Blades. But, if you like to spam 1 button after /stick, this is your way to go.

Pierce:
Snares: 21 side (15 sec.)
The strongest anytime chain 34 (+10 toHit/Def) into 50 ASR (30%; +15toHit,+5Def) being the bread and butter of the line
with the after block, back chain and front chain ALL being useless as they not only provide a weaker on ASR as a followup, but doing less Dmg too.
The after evade providing 25 - 44 STUN (8 sec.)
* Pierce is a trong line, even though half of it is rather utterly pointless. The 2-chain anytimer + evade 2-chain is all you want, and if a snare is needed it available with the 21 side. This is a go big or go home line. Go 50 or nothin'.

CD:
Snares: 21 back (4 sec.); at 39 of 3-chain side chain 18-29-39 (23 sec.)
The anytimer at 34 is rather lackluster compared to the basic lines, so kinda useless.
Back chain 21 - 50 being a very short (4sec.) snare leading into a (7 sec.) Stun will most likely never be utilized.
Side chain is the dmg/cc all around package 18 STUN (5 sec.) - 29 bleeding - 39 SNARE (23 sec.)
after parry 25 - 44 STUN (7 sec.) being the other access to a stun
after evade 4 - 12 ASR (21%) and the front chain 8 ASR (16%) - 10 bleed are the only 2 sources for an ASR in this line.
*the side chain being the stand-out in this line with the rest being rather lackluster in comparison.
Blades and Blunt providing the much better and longer duration back snares, blades having no after evade chain for whatever reason it still also provides a strong 30% ASR. Pierce being a bit of an outlier as its strong on its own, as the lack of a back snare is somewhat compensated with the high-powered anytime chain also providing 30% ASR.
For 1v1 u prolly can go blades or pierce, for general play blunt seems the better option when meshed with the CD toolkit.

Champion:
blades:
also mostly same as bard, but it has a 21 - 29 STUN (6 sec.) block chain, does anyone even care?

Blunt:
Snares: 25 back (20 sec.); on a 10 - 21 side followup (15 sec.)
mostly same as BM, but it does not have the anytimer stun, as its worked into a 39 - 50 STUN (10 sec.) after parry chain

Pierce:
Snares: 21 side (15 sec.); 12 back (12 sec.)
Mostly the same as for the BM, but it does have a back snare now 12 SNARE (12 sec.) into 18 ASR (21%)
And the anytime 2-chain followup is now a 34% ASR (instead of 30%)

LW:
Snares: 25 back (15 sec.); 15 side (12 sec.)
anyimer on 34 is worse than the front 2-chain opener, so it's useless.
front chain is 21 - 39 is "ok". it doesn't provide ASR, but the champ doesn't really need it on his styles anyway. The lower 10-18 ASR (20%) is forgettable.
The former 50 back stun "Annihilation" is now a followup to the back snare with reduced duration 25 - 50 STUN (7 sec.)
The second chain that is relevant for the champ is the higher after parry chain 29 ASR (26%) into 44 STUN (7 sec.), with the lower 4-12 STUN (4 sec.) being barely even noteworthy.
*usability is actually a bit up to the former toolkit thanks to the added back+side snares, but it does not provide any longer "1v1 dancers" the ability to abuse the 9 sec back stun, or in conjunction with a ST due to time needed to swing stwice; and also the ability to 1 button spam the back side in melee chain is no longer viable. It seems lower overall damage when compared to former 50 back spam, but the new 2-chain back and front now both provide "good enough" damage in grp play. As a solo this is a bit less viable.

Hero:
blades:
same as Champ

Blunt:
same as Champ

Pierce:
same as Champ

LW:
almost same as Champ, but the back chain 25 - 50 is a 9 sec stun (instead 7 sec)

CS:
Snares: 21 Back (15 sec.); 44 side (23 sec.)
Anytimer 34 is actually almost worse than the front 2-chain opener 6 ASR (16%) - 15. If not for the ASR, the front is kinda useless.
the side 2-chain opener providing 18 ASR (21%) - 25 STUN (6 sec.) rather "easy" access to an ASR for you dancing (1v1) folk out there; The higher(highest) dmg chain being the 44 SNARE (23 sec.) - 50 Bleed which will be the Grp spec, but it can also be abused in 1v1 obv. with the right dance moves, as this will be the higher tier shield/CS swappers play as an anytimer.
After evade 4 - 12 STUN (5 sec.) .. exists, but that's about it. (shield line for stun)
after parry 29 - 39 ASR (26%) is the other 2-chain of any value in 1v1
*1v1 - side 18 ASR + 44 SNARE (23 sec.) -50 for dancers. back 21 snare.
grp - back 21 + side 44 SNARE (23 sec.) -50. not much difference in spec.
Overall the LW is more geared towards 1v1, but min/max'ers will get more out of CS in both 1v1 or grp play.

Nightshade:
blades:
Evade: 25 ASR (26%) - 29 STUN (6 sec.)
Anytime: 18 (+10 toHit/-10 Def) - 39 ASR (30%; +10 toHit/Def) ; 44 (+10 toHit) mediocre damage
Back: 34 - 50 bleed is the highest damage chain (but is second fiddle to the CD chain)
Side: 10 SNARE (14 sec.) - 15 ASR (20%) with low damage
*being the best damage type, the utility is kinda low. the 18-39 anytimer + 25-29 side chain being prolly the only thing that's generally useful.

Pierce:
Evade: 29 ASR (26%) - 44 STUN (8 sec.)
Anytime: 34 (+10 toHit/Def) - 50 ASR (30%; +15 toHit, 5+ Def) the highest damage chain (evade being comparable)
Back/front: useless
Side: 21 SNARE (15 sec.) - 39 bleed
*unless you go 50 pierce, this line is not even remotely comparable to Blades.

Celtic Dual:
Evade: 25 - 44 STUN (7 sec.)
Anytime: 34 (+10 toHit)
Back: 21 SNARE (4 sec.) - 50 ASR (34%) the highest damage chain (side 2-chain is comparable)
front: useless
Side: 18 STUN (5 sec.) - 29 Bleed; the 39 SNARE (23 sec.) being the better "anytimer" and combined with poisons(snare/disease) a free-out-jail-out card vs melee.
*Swing chance and positionals. The true damage is not here, its in CS. That CD puts the damage right into the utility styles is kinda weird though.

Critical Strike:
Evade: 12 - 50 Big damage; technically there is also 25, but both 25 and 50 are followup to the 12 opener
Anytime: 18 SNARE (7 sec.) - 45 the damage not being bad, 18 garrote still providing spammable anytime snare.
Back (non stealth): 44 STUN (6 sec.)
side (non stealth): 8 STUN (4 sec.) - 29; this is the 2nd highest damage 2-chain after the 12-50 evade one
PA/BS: unchanged
*Big damage on the evade and side chains, outclassing the other lines. added stuns to the back/side do open up windows for dancers.
Don't ever expect a clean fight anymore. dancing and jumping all over.
AFAICT = not much changed. blades still the line to go. but higher CS does provide benefits again.

Ranger:
blades:
same as NS

Blunt:
same as NS

Pierce:
same as NS

Celtic Dual:
Evade: 25-33 OR 25-44 ; 33 STUN (4 sec.) has higher damage than the 44 STUN (7 sec.)
Anytime: 34 (+10 toHit) mediocre when compared to the front chain
Back: 21 SNARE (19 sec.) - 50 ASR (26%) the highest damage chain (evade 25-33 is comparable)
front: 35 SNARE (15 sec.; +15 toHit) - 39 ASR (34%; +10 toHit, +5 Def); this is the go-to hybrid/melee Ranger spec. it's alive with this.
side: 18 STUN (5 sec.) - 29 bleed; can be used as an opener as hybrid/melee; or again as escape as sniper
*Ranger, unlike the NS, seems to be better as pierce spec on paper, as the pierce-Cd kit meshes better than blades-CD. Problem being that pierce demands high spec which would be viable as melee only, while blades can be uses hybrid/melee and still provide the better damage type.

Valewalker:
Scythe:
Front: 34 AOE SNARE (10 sec.) - 50 DD 150; this is the highest damage chain.
Side: 10 STUN (5 sec.) - 29 AOE DD 198,9; this is the 2nd highest
back: 12 SNARE (12 sec.)+ 18doesntmatter; 39 STUN (8 sec.) - 43 DD 125,9
*other styles exist but they dont matter, besides the anti-arrow 25 anytimer
...so all hybrid going to by like this?

Warden:
tbd
*the style overhaul stone shaper/forest protector in the blades/blunt line is not really worked out yet

Overall:
the hib side seems to have recieved a lot of ups for some classes, the champion and hero being the ones being more or less +/- same.
Ranger and valewalker benefit the most, followed by the NS (assassins in general), bard actually recieving something....albeit being not that much though.
Again, i never played the patch DaoC introduced the most of these style changes so i am kinda curious.
This is just the first draft of the overhaul. stuff will be added or taken out in the following weeks, so dont flip out immediatly after seeing something not to your liking.
i'll look over mid and alb later.

Tue 25 May 2021 12:29 PM by Ardri

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 4:23 AM
Ardri wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 3:57 AM
Casters going to need something soon.

You mean like the six months of buffs they've gotten in the last ... six months?

You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. Not worth the time.

Tue 25 May 2021 1:10 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Ardri wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 12:29 PM
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. Not worth the time.

The server is dominated by casters, try to tell me otherwise so we can all laugh at you.

Tue 25 May 2021 1:11 PM by lurker

I bought this up on discord, but thought it would be worth mentioning here.

There may be other examples of this sort of thing but i just want to take minstrel as an example.

Historically minstrels have chosen between 2 specs... 44 thrust for the snare, or slash/stealth. Because of this saracen was chosen as the goto-race for the snare minstrel spec to maximise weapon skill on the thrust line as well as to some degree increase demezz speed.

Now with the proposed changes the slash minstrel becomes the stronger snaring spec with its side/rear snare combo Vs the thrusts rear only. As such anybody who made the choice to be a Saracen specifically to be a snare minstrel has lost out.

It would make sense to me that in cases like this the original themes are maintained.

Thrust Minstrel should still be the stronger snare spec - with rear/side snares one of which could be level 44.
Slash Minstrel should be the stronger damage/bleed/spec/etc.

This way we avoid to the most extent the requirement to respec race, skill and redo templates. Which seems like it should be a desirable goal that can be achieved (in this case) with a minor tweak to proposed changes. Take that side snare and put it at 44 thrust.

Otherwise we are going to have an awful lot of expense and effort that could be easily avoided and would encourage acceptance of the new styles.

I know its min/max but as it stands I expect every thrust minstrel will have to respec to slash and highlander to feel optimal again.

Tue 25 May 2021 1:41 PM by mhuff13

How will these changes affect assassins speccing into their mainhand? Will mainhand spec (thrust, slash, axe, ect) have any effect if only using CS styles?

Edit: is there a weaponskill or hit component that factors into speccing a weapon that you are wielding?

Tue 25 May 2021 2:00 PM by Tyrlaan

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 1:10 PM
Ardri wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 12:29 PM
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. Not worth the time.

The server is dominated by casters, try to tell me otherwise so we can all laugh at you.

Well 1st of all it was you who wrote casters got buffed last 6 months when in reality only Hib casters got buffed (and Mid casters to some extent, it was more a change of the meta), Alb casters got nerfed. So he was right, you were wrong. Which is probably why you didn´t include the stuff he answered to and why you´re talking about something else instead.

2nd all those snares are not going to make people want to play melee - not pure melee anyway. Maybe hybrids (most notably Reaver and VW with these revised weapon lines, I suppose we´ll see more to come to Thanes and Champs) for all those DD procs.

Tue 25 May 2021 2:01 PM by Magesty

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 9:40 AM
Reaver side chain does less dmg than rear despite being 2 part and no lifeleech. No point using this chain over levi.

Reaver side chain will be the go to for stun immune targets. This chain is going to see a ton of use in solo and small man play.

Outside of occasionally triggering the parry dehaste and str debuffing, Reaver combat is going to consist of spamming Taipan backed up with Constrictor while trying to abuse side arc. This pattern of play is going to be the case for most classes with the redesign as it currently stands.

Tue 25 May 2021 2:12 PM by inoeth

reaver and VW got a proper upgrade to their style procs but thane did not how do you justify that?
i mean anytimers on thane do some more dmg now thats cool but reaver got the 45dmg proc anytimer now on top of his already very strong back style

Tue 25 May 2021 2:13 PM by inoeth

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 2:01 PM
Irkeno wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 9:40 AM
Reaver side chain does less dmg than rear despite being 2 part and no lifeleech. No point using this chain over levi.

Reaver side chain will be the go to for stun immune targets. This chain is going to see a ton of use in solo and small man play.

Outside of occasionally triggering the parry dehaste and str debuffing, Reaver combat is going to consist of spamming Taipan backed up with Constrictor while trying to abuse side arc. This pattern of play is going to be the case for most classes with the redesign as it currently stands.

yes sadly that will be the case

Tue 25 May 2021 2:14 PM by Magesty

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 2:12 PM
reaver and VW got a proper upgrade to their style procs but thane did not how do you justify that?
i mean anytimers on thane do some more dmg now thats cool but reaver got the 45dmg proc anytimer now on top of his already very strong back style

Devs have stated a number of times that the OG hybrids will receive style flavor in later iterations.

This includes Thanes.

Tue 25 May 2021 2:20 PM by Egonek

Paladin.

I think the biggest change is now the

1h Crush bach/side peel. Realy fine. BUT WE DONT HAVE autotrain here^^

is there any reason why only slash has Autotrain??

Tue 25 May 2021 2:31 PM by mhuff13

Saroi wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:52 AM
byron wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:10 AM
noob question : lvl 74 damage means that you need to have the weapon skill at 74 ? RR14 ? And if you have, for example , 69 in total weapon skill: do you will do more damage versus 65 weapon skill or it will be the same ?

That is just an example for the damage with 74. There are 3 Different levels shown. The damage when you get it, then 65 and 74. You also see damage per level. So yes, 69 will do more damage than 65

What exactly does the damage per level mean though? Those are the numbers that don't make any sense to me.

Tue 25 May 2021 2:34 PM by skipari

mhuff13 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 2:31 PM
Saroi wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:52 AM
byron wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:10 AM
noob question : lvl 74 damage means that you need to have the weapon skill at 74 ? RR14 ? And if you have, for example , 69 in total weapon skill: do you will do more damage versus 65 weapon skill or it will be the same ?

That is just an example for the damage with 74. There are 3 Different levels shown. The damage when you get it, then 65 and 74. You also see damage per level. So yes, 69 will do more damage than 65

What exactly does the damage per level mean though? Those are the numbers that don't make any sense to me.

those got wrong imported, you can just divide them by 100, so it is a value from 0-4 actually.

Tue 25 May 2021 2:34 PM by borodino1812

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 2:12 PM
reaver and VW got a proper upgrade to their style procs but thane did not how do you justify that?
i mean anytimers on thane do some more dmg now thats cool but reaver got the 45dmg proc anytimer now on top of his already very strong back style

It surprised me that the Thane was not given a style proc. That would have fitted the class very well.

Tue 25 May 2021 2:39 PM by inoeth

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 2:14 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 2:12 PM
reaver and VW got a proper upgrade to their style procs but thane did not how do you justify that?
i mean anytimers on thane do some more dmg now thats cool but reaver got the 45dmg proc anytimer now on top of his already very strong back style

Devs have stated a number of times that the OG hybrids will receive style flavor in later iterations.

This includes Thanes.

didnt read the whole thread so thx for clarification!

Tue 25 May 2021 2:44 PM by DJ2000

Armsmen:
Crush:
Snares: 25 back (15 sec.); 34 Side (19 sec.)
anytimer 8-15 STUN (4 sec.) still provides uses in lower levels, the 21 anytime is mediocre at best
while the front 18 can provide nice bleeding in lower levels, it is rather useless later on
The side chain being the better part of the crush line, 34 SNARE (19 sec.) into 50 ASR (30%)
As much as i would like to call the after parry 12 ASR (18%) - 39 negligible. it is the only option (next to the back 4 16% ASR) if you don't have 50 Crush.
The after block 29-44 STUN (8 sec.) has at least decent damage, if anyone would care.
*Crush does provide back and side snare, but it is overall rather lackluster.

Slash:
Snares: 21 side (14 sec.); 39 back (19 sec.)
Slash anytimer are a Mess! using an opener at 6 with followups on 15 and 25 being with the same effect seems like a waste. That the2-chain 8 (taunt) - 44 is a thing is also bewildering. On the other hand the 29 (+15 toHit) is a decent anytimer all on its own.
The back chain 39 SNARE (19 sec.) - 50 ASR (34%) seems rather low damage when compared to other 2-chains, especially considering the lvl of these styles being 39 and 50.
front chain 4 ASR (16%)- 10 grants easy access to a ASR even at lower levels, but with the caveat being low damage.
Leaves the after block chain 18 ASR (21%) - 34 STUN (6 sec.), and funnily enough, this being the highest damage chain slash has to offer.
*if it werent for the 29 anytimer and the "basic back and side snares, slash would be utterly pointless to any and everyone except maybe a scout. The biggest offenders being the 15, 25 and 44 anytimers-followups. These better be reworked into something more useful.

Thrust:
Snares: 29 back (15 sec.)
Anytimer 34 is slightly worse than the slash one. The "best" 2-chain being 18 (detaunt) - 44 ASR (30%).... why? this is sad.
it is sad as there is no point to go for the 44 ASR, apart from being a bad 2-chain, because there is the side 39 ASR (30%). this is more accessible than the 2-chain anytimer with a detaunt in it, and higher damage too.
But of course there is no side snare.
The after parry with 4 ASR (16%) - 10 STUN (5 sec.) seems ok, especially for lower levels.
Followed by 2 after-block chains 15 ASR (20%) - 21 and the highest damage chain for thrust 25 bleed - 50 STUN (8 sec.)
*seems a bit unclear to me why an armsman would choose this line, as the style-Lines in other cases have class specific alterations geared towards the corresponding class, but its not the case here for the armsman. It does show promise for other alb classes (i haven't seen them yet), but this IS the spec line for the armsman, and not any other class.

Polearm:
Snares: 25 back (15 sec.); 4 side (11 sec.); 18 side (11 sec.); 39 side (15 sec.)
anytimers 8 - 15 ASR (20%) and a mediocre 34.
the back 2-chain 25 SNARE (15 sec.) into a 44 STUN (9 sec.) has good damage
The side chains.....what happened here? Why are they 3 chains all starting with a snare? This could have been easily reworked like some other styles, that use 1 opener with snare and then several followups to the same opener. Seriously, what's the point of making them all start with a different snare style? Well that being said there is 4 SNARE - 21 ASR (21%); then 18 SNARE - 26 STUN (6 sec.) and the biggest damage chain in the line 39 SNARE - 50 Bleed.
After parry 10 ASR (16%) - 44 bleed with decent damage exists as well.
*This is a HARD step down from the previous kit. There is no way that this can stay as is. Decluttering the side chains is a must. But for what its worth, this is currently just a perma snare line in grp play. i can barely see anyone taking out his polearm in a 1v1.

Two Handed:
Snares: 39 back (23 sec.); 15 side (14 sec.)
anytimers are 12 ASR (18%) which is kinda usefull and another mediocre 34 anytimer
back chain 39 SNARE (23 sec.) into 50 STUN (7 sec.) is the highest damage chain closely followed by...
side chain 15 SNARE (14 sec.) into 44 STUN (9 sec.). Not much changes so far.
front chain 4 ASR (16%) - 10 for lower levels, and 21 - 29 bleed; being better than the 34 anytimer, but really not that great on its own.
The after parry 18 - 25 ASR (26%) has decent damage comparatively.
*Barely anything changed here.

Friar:
Staff:
Evade: 25 - 44 high damage
Parry: 8 ASR (20%) - 39 STUN (8 sec.) decent
Anytimer: 34 - 50 DD 75; slightly lower damage than the evade chain
Back: 18 SNARE (27 Sec.); almost doubled the duration from former 15 sec.?
Side: 15 STUN (5 sec.) - 29 DD 175; the biggest damage chain
*This is a hard upgrade from the previous Staff line. It lost the side snare in favor for a big damage stun chain at 29. Seems a bit dubious to me to put the big chain so early into the line. I guess you can put the Friars on the Dancer list from now on.

Infiltrator:
Slash:
Evade: 18 ASR (21%) - 34 STUN (6 sec.)
Anytimer: 29 (+15 toHit) the only noteworthy, yet rather low damage
Back: 39 - 50 ASR (30%); highest damage chain...that pales in comparison to the lines
Front: useless
Side: 21 SNARE (14 sec.)

Thrust:
Evade: 4 ASR (16%) - 10 STUN (4 Sec.); and 25 bleed - 50 STUN (8 sec.); the 21-25 is forgettable
Anytimer: 34 (+10 toHit/ +5 Def) also low damage; 18 (Detaunt) - 44 ASR (30%) ...again, this is sad. Yes, i know its better than the snare from before, but why is it still a detaunt chain?
Back: 29 decent damage, usefull? maybe not
Side: 39 ASR (30%); as long as this exists there is no reason to go for the 18-44 anytimer debacle.

Dual Wield:
Evade: 25 - 44 STUN (8 sec.); decent damage, but worse than both slash and thrust evade
Anytimer: 34 (+10 toHit); worse than both slash/Thrust.
Back: 21 decent damage, usefull? nope
Front: 6 ASR (16%) - 12 bleed; and the 50 bleed that is the highest damage style+ spammable
Side: 29 SNARE (12 sec.) - 39 ASR (26%); better than slash side, but worse than Thrust and CS.
*if not going for the lvl 50 style, style bonus and the +swing chance, DW is getting more and more useless the lower you go. the fact that almost every chain ends in a tun is not helping too.

Critical Strike:
Evade: 12 - 50 Big damage; technically there is also 25, but both 25 and 50 are followup to the 12 opener
Anytime: 18 SNARE (7 sec.) - 45 the damage not being bad, 18 garrote still providing spammable anytime snare.
Back (non stealth): 44 STUN (6 sec.)
side (non stealth): 8 STUN (4 sec.) - 29; this is the 2nd highest damage 2-chain after the 12-50 evade one (beside PA(BS)
PA/BS: unchanged
*Big damage on the evade and side chains, outclassing the other lines. added stuns to the back/side do open up windows for dancers.
Don't ever expect a clean fight anymore. dancing and jumping all over.
Same as with the other assassins, you simply take the the better damage type, as the CS styles are superior to the other lines.

Mercenary:
Crush:
almost same as Armsman, the after block 2-chain for the armsman were changed into after parry for the same effects.
Back snare is now lvl 4 Snare (20 sec.) into 10 Stun (3 sec.), the back snare from 25 was removed

Slash:
almost same as Armsman, the back snare at 39 was removed and the followup at 50 is now a 30% ASR (instead of 34%).
no after parry

Thrust:
almost same as Armsman, the after block 2-chain for the armsman were changed into after parry for the same effects.
the 29 back snare was removed. This line has no longer any Snares.

Dual Wield:
Evade: 4 - 10 STUN (4 sec.); its there...
Parry: 25 - 44 STUN (8 sec.) decent damage
Anytimer: 34 mediocre damage
Back: 26 ASR (26%) - 50 STUN (8 sec.) the 2nd highest damage chain after the side 3-chain
Front: 6 ASR (16%) - 12; it's there...
Side: 15 SNARE (12 sec.) - 29 bleed - 39 STUN (5 sec)
*Merc lost all back snare. No back snare DW, Slash/Crush/Thrust. DW is reduced to the back chain into a stun, and the side chain into a stun. ... and the evade chain into a stun....and the parry chain into a stun.
thrust being the easiest line to access a 30% ASR (39 side), but other than that its terrible.
Feels like 1 step forward and 2 steps back for the Merc.

Minstrel:
Slash:
Snares: 39 back (19 sec.); 21 side (14 sec.)
same as Armsman

Pierce:
Snares: 29 back (15 sec.)
Almost same as Armsman, the after block 4 ASR - 10 chain is now an after-evade chain 4 ASR - 10; for the same effect
* i see no point to go for Thrust as a minstrel. A single 2-chain after block might be fine, but why have two of them?
Slash might not offer an after evade, but in the end its still Slash > Thrust.

Paladin:
Slash:
same as armsman

Crush:
same as armsman

Thrust:
almost same as arman; the after parry 4 ASR - 10 STUN is changed into an after block; the Paladin has now 3 different after block chains.
4 ASR (16%) - 10 STUN (5 sec.); and 15 ASR (20%) - 21; and the last 25 Bleed - 50 STUN (8 sec.)
*Not that it matters much, but why no after parry?

Two Handed:
same as Armsman
*The Paladin profits mostly thanks to the slash/crush changes (snares), other than that Two hand did not receive all that many changes.

Reaver:
Slash:
same as armsman

Crush:
same as armsman

Thrust:
same as armsman

Flex:
After Block: 10 - 15 STUN (5 sec.)
After Parry: 15 ASR (22%) - 39 STUN (8 sec.)
Anytimer: 25 Str Debuff 30%; and 34 DD 45,3
Back: 21 SNARE (19 sec.) - 50 DD 153,2; this is the highest damage chain.
Side: 18 Lt 60; 29 SNARE (23 sec.) - 44 DD 130; 2nmd highest damage chain
*Yes, the reaver lost the former easier Levi burst. but he does get nmow pretty high damage chains combined with a snare as back and side positionals. While the former weakness of the flex line, the weak anytimers, is now further strenghtend with a unique str debuff and a DD on an anytimer.
Overall mabye less efficient, but way more versatile now. if the str debuff was necessary is questionable. Reaver been no strangers to dancing, so not much going to change now.

Scout:
Slash:
Block: 18 ASR (21%) - 34 STUN (6 sec.); ASR is fine as the scout was lacking any ASR before
Anytimer: 29 (+15 toHit) the only noteworthy, yet rather low damage
Back: 39 - 50 ASR (30%); highest damage chain..not going be able to pulll it off without being able to dance.
Front: 4 ASR (16%) - 10 bleed; its there...
Side: 21 SNARE (14 sec.)

Thrust:
Block: 15 ASR (20%) - 21; the opener ASR is usefull; 25 bleed - 50 STUN (8 sec.); again good opener. the stun seems a bit wasted on a lvl 50 after block.
Evade: 4 ASR (16%) - 10 STUN (4 sec.); its there...
Anytimer: 34 (+10 toHit/ +5 Def); low damage; 18 (Detaunt) - 44 ASR (30%) ...why...
Back: 29 decent damage, usefull? maybe not, unless you can dance
Side: 39 ASR (30%); as long as this exists there is no reason to go for the 18-44 anytimer debacle.
* Is this overall better for the Scout than the former version? yes. But it still feels not quite there yet. Still hope for further adjustments.

Overall:
Albion is a mixed back. While you have friar and reaver on one side being on the winning side, the armsman for example seems to get bad end of the stick.
Overall it seems that the approach to the Slash/Crush/Thrust was less intricately resolved by this change. seems a bit more of copy-pasta than i would have liked to see. Way less class specific changes it seemed. The Taunt and detaunt chains annoy me the most, they could have been handled much better, and i do hope they still will be addressed. Well, unless they are considered "sacred" for whatever reason and will not be touched any further...

Tue 25 May 2021 2:45 PM by gotwqqd

Doesn’t seem like minor changes to some styles to bring in line with other classes.
It’s more akin to a complete overhaul.

Tue 25 May 2021 2:45 PM by borodino1812

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 2:14 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 2:12 PM
reaver and VW got a proper upgrade to their style procs but thane did not how do you justify that?
i mean anytimers on thane do some more dmg now thats cool but reaver got the 45dmg proc anytimer now on top of his already very strong back style

Devs have stated a number of times that the OG hybrids will receive style flavor in later iterations.

This includes Thanes.

Thanks for that clarification, that makes sense.

Tue 25 May 2021 2:52 PM by Egonek

Reaver:

Flex: Level 44 "Cobra" is not more a lifeleech? is this correct?

Tue 25 May 2021 2:57 PM by NeoMatrix

Random side thing; after leveling a warrior to 50 in Mid; the long delay before you get taunt in Hammers is suuuuuper annoying when you are trying to tank early on and feels like a clerical error. Can we get taunt/detaunt switched (in terms of when they unlock) as part of this change?

Tue 25 May 2021 3:01 PM by Sepplord

weren't durations supposed to be normalized depending on positional/chain-# ?
Aka first in chain anytimer shorter than a sidestyle, shorter than a backstyle...etc... ?

Looking at Skald
hammers:
Backsnare 19s
Sidesnare 15s

Axe:
Backsnare 12s
Sidesnare 19s

It is not (or not only) stylelevel neither...if you look at other classes (for example bard)

So what is the logic behind these values? What determines snare-length?

It doesn't seem to be consistent either way. I was under the impression that it is (among other things) supposed to streamline the style availability and potency between all classes depending on their difficulty to land. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
So individual balancing is being thrown in too? If that is the case, why not throw up all nerfed classes/buffed classes instead of making that discussion impossible without checking back and forth every class in two different charplaners to see what actually changed

Tue 25 May 2021 3:09 PM by gotwqqd

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 3:01 PM
weren't durations supposed to be normalized depending on positional/chain-# ?
Aka first in chain anytimer shorter than a sidestyle, shorter than a backstyle...etc... ?

Looking at Skald
hammers:
Backsnare 19s
Sidesnare 15s

Axe:
Backsnare 12s
Sidesnare 19s

It is not (or not only) stylelevel neither...if you look at other classes (for example bard)

So what is the logic behind these values? What determines snare-length?

It doesn't seem to be consistent either way. I was under the impression that it is (among other things) supposed to streamline the style availability and potency between all classes depending on their difficulty to land. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
So individual balancing is being thrown in too? If that is the case, why not throw up all nerfed classes/buffed classes instead of making that discussion impossible without checking back and forth every class in two different charplaners to see what actually changed

I would say this shouldn’t necessarily be the case.
Dependent on class effects should possibly be longer.
And some classes “core job” warrant an easier time landing longer effects

Tue 25 May 2021 3:12 PM by Tyrlaan

Egonek wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 2:20 PM
Paladin.

I think the biggest change is now the

1h Crush bach/side peel. Realy fine. BUT WE DONT HAVE autotrain here^^

is there any reason why only slash has Autotrain??

Pretty sure Paladins are gonna lose out on this style review again. That´s because they don´t gain the stuff offensive hybrids with a spell line get (some useful offensive RA each, more ranged abilities and their styles pimped with extra DD procs) while gaining little for their lack of dps when compared to other defensive/healing hybrids like Friars/Wardens (some useful offensive RA each, on top of spell lines and being granted the group stuff Paladins get RA-wise, VR, AotG etc.). And there´s talk of improving Friar/Warden/Bard melee lines because some people expect to be able to solo too (for the giggles) on classes which easily get groups already...

Savages are in the same boat. Originally a SI hybrid, they don´t bring another hybrid offensive RA to their realm and just another weapon line with melee effects (not the DD procs Reavers and VWs got). With Zerks getting all those positional stuns (or stun follow-ups) and the Aurora Borealis DD proc moving to the much easier to apply side chain, I have yet to see why people would want to play Savages. They are not even good soloers where at least many other hybrids/tanks find their niche.

I guess the stronger, more played classes just have a stronger lobby. I wrote earlier, I like the Reaver flex changes (careful about those easy to apply side chains though). But I also don´t feel like Reavers (or VWs or assassins) are the classes who foremost need buffs in form of a style review. And if everybody´s to get all kinds of snares and stuns over their weapon lines (except the Merc though I suppose the removal of the back snare was an oversight), there´s still some classes which come out ahead and others who don´t.

Tue 25 May 2021 3:14 PM by Egonek

Merc: only side peel?
Berserker: side + back peel
Blademaster: side + back peel

its this correct?

Tue 25 May 2021 3:22 PM by Sepplord

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 3:09 PM
I would say this shouldn’t necessarily be the case.
Dependent on class effects should possibly be longer.
And some classes “core job” warrant an easier time landing longer effects

yeah, but is an axe skalds job that different from a hammerskalds job?
Imo it doesn't make sense that one time the backsnare is longer and the other time sidesnare is longer

And in that scenario, why would a bard whos mainjob surely isn't peeling have a longer sidesnare at than an axe-skalds backsnare?

currently the "logic" behind some adjustments seem all over the place, but i doubt they had no system and just randomly did stuff (no sarcasm at all, seriously). So it would be intresting to read about the intentions and ways they decided on the changes.
Maybe some things are just a bug or axesnares got mixed up and should have switched values...etc...

Without knowing where the changes are coming from it is hard to spot an honest mistake from a debatable designdecision

Tue 25 May 2021 3:23 PM by byron

The zerk on paper has some ups and some downs : now this class has stuns (improvement, maybe too many stuns now) but it lost its peeling ability (downside with other light tanks but it could be good since every class type will have a more defined role). What I consider a little nerf is the DD moved on the side style since in a RvR environment usually the main targets run away (casters, supports). So it will be more difficult to land especially when the target will have stun immunity. Also the frontal chain and the parry chain in the LA line are quite weak. But I'm curious to test all the changes to evaluate them better, so keep going !

Tue 25 May 2021 3:33 PM by Sagz

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 4:46 AM
SB1999 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 4:38 AM
I mean if you want Superman, you just made him.

Meh, they give up any semblance of shield spec to get it.

The damage could probably be lower, but I don't really see the problem with the stun component, and before someone says it, no I do not play Hibernia.

Well really not needed if you are not main peeler and guard not needed, and still can stun and snare, without switching weaps in an emergency

Tue 25 May 2021 3:34 PM by Egonek

Friar styls:

Why all the heavy endu costs?? because endu reduce? you see the irony?

he will go so fast ooe.

Tue 25 May 2021 3:46 PM by Magesty

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 3:12 PM
Pretty sure Paladins are gonna lose out on this style review again. That´s because they don´t gain the stuff offensive hybrids with a spell line get (some useful offensive RA each, more ranged abilities and their styles pimped with extra DD procs)

Paladins, along with the other "damage" hybrids will be receiving additional style flavor/procs as the later iterations of the overhaul roll out.

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 3:12 PM
And there´s talk of improving Friar/Warden/Bard melee lines because some people expect to be able to solo too (for the giggles) on classes which easily get groups already...

There is a fairly large contingent of players who solo/duo, and if custom styles are implemented properly they will serve to bolster the class availability for that play style while not affecting the "support" role of these classes in 8v8. Ideally performing well on Warden/Friar in solo play will require a different spec than in group play.

Tue 25 May 2021 3:47 PM by Tyrlaan

Sagz wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 3:33 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 4:46 AM
SB1999 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 4:38 AM
I mean if you want Superman, you just made him.

Meh, they give up any semblance of shield spec to get it.

The damage could probably be lower, but I don't really see the problem with the stun component, and before someone says it, no I do not play Hibernia.

Well really not needed if you are not main peeler and guard not needed, and still can stun and snare, without switching weaps in an emergency

It´s probably an error anyway. If you look at the Blunt line for most other classes, it´s off Parry there. There´s plenty of similar errors, with damage delving differently for different classes. Sometimes the Blunt/Pierce 34 anytime is 230 max damage (much higher than many other styles, even 2H styles, positionals or 2nd in chain) but for BMs it´s much lower. For Minstrels Amethyst Slash has the same 230 max damage but for Mercs it is lower.

Tue 25 May 2021 4:01 PM by nAAs

Asked to post.

Pin has been missed for reavers/champs. Unbreakable snare 6sec. Understand that the shield line is already quite custom, but it's a unique style for reavers/champs that brings up their value in groups and makes up for not having stoicism. Quite important addition/omission imo.

Tue 25 May 2021 4:10 PM by Tyrlaan

Uhh I´d rather keep 9sec Slam than get Pin. Also Shield has enough use already for Reavers and Champs.

Tue 25 May 2021 5:03 PM by Adwaenyth

I doubt a back positional 8s stun is a good idea in a CS spec... unless you want to enforce lag induced stunning and adding...

/edit: Also what kind of logic is it that puts the after evade stun at lvl 29 in the Blades spec and at lvl 44 in the Piercing and Celtic Dual spec?

Tue 25 May 2021 5:54 PM by Yokahu

This overhaul feels like a nerf to the SB 50 Left Axe spec. All other weapon lines have better dmg outputs. Even Doublefrost does less than any of the other anytime style options. The frontal style chain isn’t bad, but good luck landing that with everyone fishing for side styles.

I think it’s time SB learn how to hit with the side of their weapons to do blunt damage.

Tue 25 May 2021 6:20 PM by bculpepper

This patch will make assassins OP.

You have moved over the styles from live CS without considering the spec point allocations that live has because Poison needs full 50 spec and Stealth can vary based on how you want to use it - but needs 50 stealth (to get Blur on live).

On Phoenix, Poison and Stealth only need composite 50 - letting assassins spend more points on weapon lines. A RR10 Infiltrator will have 50CS/45DW on phoenix compared to 50CS/8DW on live or 50CS/41DW on live depending on if they want Blur. Considering that everyone on live has 50% more HPs due to CL/MLs - giving these high damage styles to assassins on phoenix with no trade-off is going to be bad.

Tue 25 May 2021 6:38 PM by SgtGator

CS line will make Infils insane, but NS/SB have far fewer spec points here. Hurts SB little more than NS i'd say as well. At rr12, the most a 50 CS SB can deal mainhand is gonna be about 95% and OH is around 75%. Equal rr NS can get OH swing chance to 77% and Infil can hit 86% at 100% dmg MH/OH. And like others have said LA line was gutted for SB.

Also ALL HP was increased here a while back.

SB's 30-34% ASR were placed out of reach as well.

Tue 25 May 2021 7:18 PM by DJ2000

Beserker:
Axe:
Snares: 39 side (19 sec.)
Anytimer is still the 10 ASR (21%) nice to have; but additionally there is now a 29 (+10 toHit) with higher damage than the 10 ASR; nothing out of the ordinary, but its there
Front chain is gone (29 is anytimer) and the other part is now in the side chain 39 SNARE - 50 ASR (30%) which is now the highest damage chain available.
Back chain 15 - 44 STUN (5 sec.) is only slightly lower damage wise 2nd
*the former side 34% ASR is gone which was the axe line vip dancer style, but the 10 ASR remains for subspec if needed.
*It still lacks the back snare, but it has now decent damage in side/back chains, that does require higher axe spec.

Hammer:
Snares: 12 side (15 sec.)
anytimer 15 - 25 ASR (26%) has now a bit lower value; and a mediocre 32 anytimer (+10 toHit) was added
back chain 29 - 44 for no effect but the highest damage hammer chain
side chain 12 SNARE - 18 STUN (5 sec.) with decent Damage does seem a bit lackluster.
Parry chains 4 ASR (16%) - 8 STUN (4 sec.); then 21 ASR (21%) - 34 STUN (7 sec.); and finally 39 ASR (30%) - 50 bleed which also is the 2nd highest damage chain
*Parry chains were plenty before, and are still around. but unlike before where the chains were actually different in nature. These seem a bit samey to me. Also: No back snare anymore.

Sword:
Snares: on a after-parry followup 21-29 (15 sec.)
anytimer 34 has (+10 toHit) and is comparable to the other lines.
Back positional trademark style 50 "ragnarok" lost the ASR component, but went up in damage as exchange.
the former side chain is now a front chain 8 ASR (20%) - 15 bleed.
* this line is completely head scratching to me. Unlike the Axe line where the after-block was dropped, the Sword line actually went up from 2 styles to 4 styles...on a class that has no shield no less. Furthermore, the lack of snares puts the Sword-Line into a niche use case.

Left Axe:
Snares: 29 back (4 sec.); a front followup 4-21 (19 sec.)
anytimer 34 (+10 to Hit) like other hammer/axe/sword ... but there is still the LA mechanic. So this is preferable to all others.
New Back chain 29 SNARE (4 sec.) - 44 STUN (7 sec.); old aurora chain is gone
New Front chain 4 ASR (16%) - 21 SNARE (19 sec.); the ASR is fine, but the SNARE seems kinda weird on a front chain, still 2nd highest damage chain after the...
new side chain 25 STUN (5 sec.) - 50 DD 95; this is the new aurora chain, which is also the highest damage chain
After parry 8 ASR (20%) - 15 bleed; and after evade 18 - 39 STUN (7 sec.); round up the LA lineup. both with decent damage.
* Well, Berserkers power is basically all in LA, now more than ever. The aurora side chain is also easier to access, with the right dancing shoes, than the former back chain, a back snare was added as a back chain. Question is: Did the current changes drop the hammer from its pedestral? no. The weakest chain, being the back positional, is the strongest in the hammer line, when compared to the rest. Which is the only exception to use any other chain besides the ones from LA if any at all.

Hunter:
Sword:
Evade: 10 - 18 STUN (5 sec.); there are also 4-39 STUN (7 sec.) and 25-44, but they hardly seem worth the investment, even though the 25-44 is one of the highest damage chains sword has to offer.
Anytime: 34 (+10 toHit); ...nothing special but it's there.
Back: 50 SNARE (23 sec.); single hardest hitting style...still seems not worth it, why a snare on a 50 back positional for a hunter?
Front: 8 ASR (20%) - 15 bleed; better in every regard than the 34 anytimer
Side: 29 SNARE (15 sec.)
* i am not entirely sure that this is an improvement for the Hunter. It is different though, that i can say.

Spear:
Evade: 18 ASR (21%) - 29 Bleed; decent damage but kinda unfavorable to use if not for the ASR.
Anytime: 6 (Taunt) - 15 SNARE (14 sec.); this is unchanged; 10 - 25 ASR (21%); this is new, but there is still the slightly upgraded 34 anytime with decent damage at least
Back: 39 STUN (7 sec.) - 44 bleed; slightly upgraded stun duration and added bleed effect on followup, this is the highest damage chain
Side: 21 SNARE (19 sec.) - 50 bleed; 2nd highest chain but going 50 on spear seems unlikely,
*No contest, spear still light-years ahead of sword for a Hunter. Not that much changed, key style chains upgraded for spear even. Back chain was every hunters' goal, this did not change, but there is now an option to dance for a side chain.

Savage:
Axe:
same as Berserker

Hammer:
almost same as Berserker; the after-parry 21 ASR (21%) - 34 STUN (7sec.) is a rather decent Evade chain for the Savage

Sword:
almost same as Berserker; the 4 after-block styles are now split into ...
a rather decent 4 ASR (16%) - 39 STUN (7 sec.) after Evade,
and a semi-usefull 10 - 18 STUN (5 sec.) after Parry

H2H:
Evade: 2-chain 21 - 25 or 50; remains a high damage chain, but has an Melee/PBAoE component on part 25 (4 additional targets) and 50 (5 additional targets) now.
Parry: 2-chain that works similar 4 - 10 or 34; the part 10 hitting 1 additional target, while part 34 has not that multitarget effect, but still hitting hard
Anytimer: 12 ASR (24%); received an upgrade; 29 tbd which effect will be applied
Back: 8 STUN (4 sec.) - 18; is unchanged
Side: 39 SNARE (15 sec.) - 44 STUN (9 sec.); did also receive an upgrade inform of a SNARE on the opener.
*I am not sure why the multitarget effects were added on a evade/parry chain. Would have rather seen them on a positional, but regardless, H2H did get an upgrade overall...for now at least.

shadowblade:
Sword:
Evade: 10 - 18 STUN (5 sec.); 4 - 39 STUN (7 sec.); the only noteworthy, the 25 - 44 bleed being rather useless for the investment
Anytimer: 34 (+10 toHit); ...nothing special but it's there.
Back: 50 no effect but hard hitting but just as out of reach spec wise
Front: 8 ASR (20%) - 15 bleed; seems fine
Side: 29 SNARE (15 sec.); yep
*Sword positional got a bit switched around, not much lost...not much gained

Axe:
Evade: 21 ASR (22%); this received an upgrade with an ASR effect; 25 bleed- 34 STUN (6 sec.) this is unchanged
Anytimer: 10 ASR (21%) - 18 bleed; this was changed to a bleed on the followup; 29 (+10 toHit) generic mediocre anytimer
Back: 15 - 44 STUN (5 sec.); ...meh
Side: 39 SNARE (19 sec.) - 50 ASR (30%); nice...but a bit out of reach skill wise
*Looks to me like an overall loss with these changes, when compared to the former version

Left Axe:
Evade: 8 ASR (20%) - 15 bleed; a slight upgrade; 18 - 29 STUN (7 sec.); made more accessible by lowering the followup to 29 from 39
Anytimer: 6 - 12 ASR (21%); changed from snare to ASR; 36 got the endurance cost down, toHit up; in line with other anytimer
Back: 39 - 44 bleed; Aurora chain is gone; still the highest damage chain, but not by much (kinda comparable to evade 28-29 and side 25-50)
Front: 4 ASR (16%) - 21 SNARE (19 sec.);the ASR is fine, so is the SNARE if needed
Side: 25 STUN (5 sec.) - 50 ASR (26%); no aurora. nope. its gone. still high damage chain though

Critical Strike:
Evade: 12 - 50 Big damage; technically there is also 25, but both 25 and 50 are followup to the 12 opener
Anytime: 18 SNARE (7 sec.) - 45 the damage not being bad, 18 garrote still providing spammable anytime snare.
Back (non stealth): 44 STUN (6 sec.)
side (non stealth): 8 STUN (4 sec.) - 29; this is the 2nd highest damage 2-chain after the 12-50 evade one
PA/BS: unchanged
*hmmm, SB lost some Damage in the LA line. Something that gave the SB some advantage if your dancing skills were good. Well, its gone, the CS line is the new go-to anyway, which doesn't leverage the LA mechanic.

Skald:
Axe:
Snares: 15 back (12 sec.); 39 side (19 sec.)
mostly the same as Berserker, the 21 ASR (22%) - 34 STUN (6 sec.) after-evade is an after-parry for the Skald

Hammer:
Snares: 29 back (19 sec.); 12 side (15 sec.)
mostly the same as Berserker, the side chain has a new followup to the 12 SNARE at 48 which makes it the 2nd hardest hitting 2-chain for the skald, after the back chain

Sword:
Snares: 50 back (23 sec.)
mostly the same as Berserker, but the 50 back style is a SNARE now, and the after-parry followup is a ASR now; 21-29 ASR (21%)
*The skald might be the first class in Midgard that can almost go for a Sword spec now. yay? Still has all the back/side snares in the other weapon lines.

Thane:
Axe:
Snares: 15 back (12 sec.); 39 side (19 sec.)
Block: 25 has decent damage but +0 toHit
Parry: 21 ASR (22%) - 34 STUN (6 sec.)
Anytimer: 10 ASR (21%) - 18 bleed; 29 (+10 toHit) generic mediocre anytimer
Back: 15 SNARE (12 sec.) - 44; highest damage chain
Side: 39 SNARE (19 sec.) - 50; 2nd highest damage chain
*inferior to the sword line

Hammer:
Snares: 29 back (19 sec.)
Block: 21 ASR (21%) - 34 STUN (7 sec.)
Parry: 4 ASR (16%) - 8 STUN (4 sec.); 39 - 50; for no effect but high damage (effects might be added later)
Anytimer: 32 (+10 toHit) decent damage
Back: 29 SNARE (19 sec.) - 44; ties with 39-50 after-parry for highest damage
Side: 12 - 18 STUN (5 sec.); mediocre damage for a positional
*weaker that before the change

Sword:
Snares: 39 back (15 sec.); 18 side (9 sec.)
Block: 25 - 44 bleed; decent damage
Parry: 21 bleed - 29 ASR (21%); also decent damage
Anytimer: 34 (+10 toHit) decent damage
Back: 39 SNARE (15 sec.) - 50; decent samage
Front: 8 ASR (20%) - 15 bleed; ASR is fine, but the damage is rather low
Side: 18 SNARE (9 sec.)
*Thane with a Sword ?!? unclear if the damage table changes, but this doesnt look all that bad.
Additionally, hybrid style/effects not in yet.

Warrior:
Axe:
Snares: 15 back (12 sec.); 39 side (19 sec.)
Block: 21 ASR (22%) - 34 STUN (6 sec.); decent damage
Evade: 25 bleed; ....its there
Parry: 4 ASR (16%) - 8; ...useless
Anytimer: 10 ASR (21%) - 18 bleed; 29 (+10 toHit) generic mediocre anytimer
Back: 15 SNARE (12 sec.) - 44 STUN (5 sec.); 2nd highest damage chain
Side: 39 SNARE (19 sec.) - 50 ASR (30%); highest damage chain

Hammer:
Snares: 29 back (19 sec.); 12 side (15 sec.)
Block: 21 ASR (21%) - 34 STUN (7 sec.); decent damage
Parry: 4 ASR (16%) - 8 STUN (4 sec.); 39 ASR (30%) - 50 Bleed; high damage
Anytimer: 10 - 25 ASR (26%);rather low damage; 32 (+10 toHit) generic mediocre anytimer
Back: 29 SNARE (19 sec.) - 44; ties with 39-50 after-parry for highest damage
Side: 12 SNARE (15 sec.) - 18 STUN (5 sec.); mediocre damage for a positional

Sword:
Snares: 50 back (23 sec.);
Block: 4 ASR (16%); opener; - 18 STUN (5 sec.); - 39 STUN (8 sec.); rather low damage
Evade: 25 - 44 bleed; its there...even decent damage...oh well...
Parry: 21 bleed - 29 ASR (21%); decent damage
Anytimer: 34 (+10 toHit) generic mediocre anytimer
Back: 50 SNARE (23 sec.); single hardest hitting style
Front: 8 ASR (20%) - 15 bleed; ASR is fine, but the damage is rather low
*All Lines seem improved, feels like it matters not much for a warrior.

Overall:
I am not sure what to call this change for midgard. A lot of hit and miss...but then again its just the first draft that will be adjusted anyway. ... meh
It does feel like mostly slight improvements, or a "maybe" option to spec differently, while some do get a hit to their kit like the SB, or the berserk gettin 4 styled dedicated to block reactionaries.... i guess we'll see how this pans out.

Tue 25 May 2021 7:28 PM by Magesty

bculpepper wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 6:20 PM
This patch will make assassins OP.

You have moved over the styles from live CS without considering the spec point allocations that live has because Poison needs full 50 spec and Stealth can vary based on how you want to use it - but needs 50 stealth (to get Blur on live).

On Phoenix, Poison and Stealth only need composite 50 - letting assassins spend more points on weapon lines. A RR10 Infiltrator will have 50CS/45DW on phoenix compared to 50CS/8DW on live or 50CS/41DW on live depending on if they want Blur. Considering that everyone on live has 50% more HPs due to CL/MLs - giving these high damage styles to assassins on phoenix with no trade-off is going to be bad.

Fully agreed. There are so many reasons these style lines are the way that they are on live-- well over a decade and a half of power creep/shift in all gameplay systems.

This is a great starting point, but it would be pretty unimpressive if there aren't fairly significant changes as they move forward.

Tue 25 May 2021 8:01 PM by inoeth

i just saw: blademaster lvl 50 blunt style, anytime, high dmg aaaand 10s stun ... whaaaat?
also lvl 39 CD style with 23s snare... omg
going to lvl a blademaster now trololol

Tue 25 May 2021 8:03 PM by jonny290

extremely boring and overnormalized vis style lines but a 6 second cs backstun?

I look forward to returning to my Phoenix melee classes when these changes are reverted. Watching thread with interest.

Tue 25 May 2021 8:04 PM by Tulpa

LW champ loses:

Target Parries Stun Style (great to start the ST stun stun chain)
2nd Part 34% CS debuff (huge and important advantage btw)

Target Blocks Bleed style (its small but it really adds up against defensive classes like a reaver with lots of shield).

Third part of parry chain (which I seem to land enough) that hits like a truck.

Any time CS (combat speed) debuff (before you say I have an insta for that, I try and conserve power and don't use it all the time).

Annihilation opening rear stun style, This is what made LW style great and you just toss it in the trash? This is the only reason give up shield for LW 50....

Frontal snare (very useful for people who just stick/face when I want to kite to get a heal off for First aid).

side snare is now worse
lower CS debuff values over all and no any time to save power.

GAINS what?

rear snare and slightly better bleeds?

Sigh.... i'll just go roll a reaver in alb i guess....

They have everything now by the looks of it. Don't even need to spec 50 to slam and chain a proc style its just a side style now. Spam DD any time till reaver is at 1/2 health, slam and spam LT side style and repeat...

a 2nd part parry stun that is 5 levels lower but 15% longer than the champs...

good grief guys come on.

Tue 25 May 2021 8:25 PM by Tulpa

Hibernia LW styles were fine as is... perhaps make a rear snare at in the 20's or 30's and add a bleed as a 2nd part to that if you want to help it, but what this looks like to me is a huge nerf.

Leave the rest alone.

EDIT: if you insist on these changes put a frontal snare back in please in stead of a useless 20% cs debuff that we have off other chains or via insta's

Tue 25 May 2021 8:29 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 7:28 PM
This is a great starting point, but it would be pretty unimpressive if there aren't fairly significant changes as they move forward.

Gee, I sure do agree with you! I wonder how they feel? Alas, we'll probably never know. After all, there's no way they've already said multiple times that this is just a starting point and there are at least two more iterations on the way. Nope, never said it. This is clearly the only change being considered.

Tue 25 May 2021 8:38 PM by Tulpa

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 8:29 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 7:28 PM
This is a great starting point, but it would be pretty unimpressive if there aren't fairly significant changes as they move forward.

Gee, I sure do agree with you! I wonder how they feel? Alas, we'll probably never know. After all, there's no way they've already said multiple times that this is just a starting point and there are at least two more iterations on the way. Nope, never said it. This is clearly the only change being considered.

I think a lot of us recognize this but at the same time think this is so far in the wrong direction if we don't speak loudly now they will make further changes heading this way.... which is the last thing I want see, and I think a lot of people agree...

What we wanted: tweak a few things to make some lines that sucked more viable

What we are getting: Breaking things that didn't need fixing

Tue 25 May 2021 8:43 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 8:38 PM
I think a lot of us recognize this but at the same time think this is so far in the wrong direction if we don't speak loudly now they will make further changes heading this way.... which is the last thing I want see, and I think a lot of people agree...

What we wanted: tweak a few things to make some lines that sucked more viable

What we are getting: Breaking things that didn't need fixing

This is the same argument the whining minority made last time, which got it canceled.

You see some things on paper, assume the worst, and kick and scream like toddlers until you get your way, never once considering how the rest of the player base feels.

If they give in to you again, I personally know a lot of people who are done; they're tired of the devs announcing shit and rolling it back without any attempt to actually implement it.

Tue 25 May 2021 9:08 PM by Noashakra

Stop saying it was a minority all the time, people were overwhelmingly against the last change.
I also know people who will stop with thoses changes too (armsmans for example).

The VW changes are bonkers again for example, it'll be the best tank from far imo, and it doesn't need that.

Tue 25 May 2021 9:35 PM by Tulpa

[/quote]

This is the same argument the whining minority made last time, which got it canceled.

You see some things on paper, assume the worst, and kick and scream like toddlers until you get your way, never once considering how the rest of the player base feels.

If they give in to you again, I personally know a lot of people who are done; they're tired of the devs announcing shit and rolling it back without any attempt to actually implement it.
[/quote]

Maybe the DEV's should announce smaller changes then? Maybe fix the broken things and leave others well enough alone?

I'd like to hear from someone (anyone? anyone? Bueller?) who was asking for changes to LW champ styles? LW was good enough as is when they added the side snare. I have not heard one let alone a bunch of hero's and champ's lamenting lack of rear snare so hard that its worth blowing up the only (IMHO) viable weapon spec for champs.

Hero's at least can go Celtic Spear now that looks interesting, but champs are taking it on the chin with these LW changes.

Each skill line has its good and bad, LW Champ can't really spec shield and be viable, so you play hard on the positional and reactionary stuns to make the most of an ST. Or you go easy mode and get slam and suffer with less DPS. Now they have taken away the only opening style stun from the class that is not a shield stun.

Its a massive change to playability.

It is telling that you have to resort to ad hominem attacks calling us toddlers rather than explaining how the current round of changes makes sense when we question things. Make some sense of the LW changes for me would you? Who asked for them, why remove any originality from the line (target blocks/parry's), and break the whole line just to add a rear snare?

Tue 25 May 2021 9:35 PM by Astaa

Try it out, then decide. This is not the final plan.

It would be better if it went in sooner rather than later to give time before the next levelling event.

Tue 25 May 2021 9:36 PM by Magesty

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 8:29 PM
Gee, I sure do agree with you! I wonder how they feel? Alas, we'll probably never know. After all, there's no way they've already said multiple times that this is just a starting point and there are at least two more iterations on the way. Nope, never said it. This is clearly the only change being considered.

Oh look, a shitty comment before you flush yourself back down the pipes for a bit. Gee, what a stinky surprise! Yuck LOL! Looking forward to seeing you take a jab at someone else in a few pages once this exchange has blown over without a response. What's the saying? If you can't be good be consistent...? Something like that.

My primary issues with the changes as they currently stand are two fold: The effects as they stand on base weapon lines are too powerful and the distribution of power to side chains is too high. Obviously there are other issues like the straight up nerfs to polearm and DW for mercs, but I have faith that those will be ironed out.

Now, on to why I am expressing the kind of concern I am expressing. Please see the quote from GS earlier in this thread below:

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 5:56 PM
The initial release / stage 1 will be very conservative when it comes to the kinds of effects applied by styles. This will also be about as boring as the current styles are as it represents the lines without class based flavoring / line uniqueness. The following stages will see an introduction of class based flavoring / line uniqueness for a few classes / lines at a time. Some of those effects are potentially even experimental and will raise some eyebrows and, in case we're low on tears, some will be over the top just to have tested them for a day. Who knows, maybe the pet procs make a come back, they were received really well :p

So these style effects are conservative. The proliferation of 20%+ attack speed debuffs is conservative. The enormous amount of stuns are conservative. The concern I'm expressing derives directly from reading what has been communicated by GS in this thread. While "basic", these are extremely powerful effects and all indications are that this is just a jumping off point. Where I'd like to see a decrease in overall power, especially when it comes to atk speed debuffs, it would seem that this is just the beginning. Now, perhaps there is a world in which 30% ASRs are balanced out with some sort of creative abilities to flesh out other lines, but I'm less than optimistic as this would be extremely difficult for even an experienced design team to manage. And honestly, why would you want to set the bar that high?

These are live styles that have been informed by countless changes over decades. Even if we are pretending that Live is some paragon of balance, dropping these styles naked and screaming into Phoenix out of context isn't a sound approach, even in a "phase one".

So we've got extremely powerful styles that are going to match, at the very least, the ordering that is on live. I get that this creates an aesthetically pleasing experience, but many of those style chains are directly tied to the slam changes, and a design philosophy that shifted from the type of gameplay we have here on Phoenix to one that is more focused on reactionary and positional stuns. Why would the basic effects remain the same across the board if slam isn't going to change? What value do many of these lines have to offer when people are just going to be weapon swapping and slamming?

I think there is a lot more to be said about the direction this appears to be taking if this is a starting point with the intention to move forward, and it is also very possible that in two weeks this will all be moot. The intention with this release was to receive feedback and I'm attempting to provide some.

Tue 25 May 2021 9:36 PM by gotwqqd

Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 8:38 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 8:29 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 7:28 PM
This is a great starting point, but it would be pretty unimpressive if there aren't fairly significant changes as they move forward.

Gee, I sure do agree with you! I wonder how they feel? Alas, we'll probably never know. After all, there's no way they've already said multiple times that this is just a starting point and there are at least two more iterations on the way. Nope, never said it. This is clearly the only change being considered.

I think a lot of us recognize this but at the same time think this is so far in the wrong direction if we don't speak loudly now they will make further changes heading this way.... which is the last thing I want see, and I think a lot of people agree...

What we wanted: tweak a few things to make some lines that sucked more viable

What we are getting: Breaking things that didn't need fixing

Is this thread compiled or a continuation of the last “attempt” at style changes?
It seems pretty much the exact same approach that resulted in mass condemnation and pulling the plug.
Why are we filling the tub with filthy water again

Tue 25 May 2021 9:37 PM by Tulpa

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 9:08 PM
Stop saying it was a minority all the time, people were overwhelmingly against the last change.
I also know people who will stop with thoses changes too (armsmans for example).

The VW changes are bonkers again for example, it'll be the best tank from far imo, and it doesn't need that.

No doubt VW styles needed a tiny tweak because of the streak prevention code, but not necessarily on mass like its being done.

Armsman loose the hit by style bleeds on pole arm which is again a gutting of a nice bit of theme from a style line. Replaced with what? luke warm bland nothing.

Tue 25 May 2021 9:44 PM by Nheryn

Please dear gms, don't destroy hero spear.. Always had a stun on parry, but you want removed it for put it on a second style ...... of evade ...? 10% chance of evade (when is not less...) , so second style maybe i will have 2 % chance to put a stun seriously ?
All others melee, even a friar, will be able to stun easy with the stun on the parry/block chain, why not for spear too ? Hero spear isnt a fufu class with a lot of evade, so why do this ?

Please, remove my moose than my stun, i would prefer it. For solo with your style change, spear hero cant work, only for grp.

Tue 25 May 2021 9:54 PM by bculpepper

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 9:36 PM
So we've got extremely powerful styles that are going to match, at the very least, the ordering that is on live. I get that this creates an aesthetically pleasing experience, but many of those style chains are directly tied to the slam changes, and a design philosophy that shifted from the type of gameplay we have here on Phoenix to one that is more focused on reactionary and positional stuns. Why would the basic effects remain the same across the board if slam isn't going to change? What value do many of these lines have to offer when people are just going to be weapon swapping and slamming?

This is spot on. Certainly for any 1v1 the shift will be to dancing around and trying to land positional styles. Any 2v1 encounter where you maybe could defeat the odds will become much harder as the add will be hitting you with high damage/stun positional styles that you can't really prevent.

Tue 25 May 2021 10:05 PM by Tulpa

[/quote]Is this thread compiled or a continuation of the last “attempt” at style changes?
It seems pretty much the exact same approach that resulted in mass condemnation and pulling the plug.
Why are we filling the tub with filthy water again
[/quote]

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result....

Tue 25 May 2021 10:08 PM by nAAs

Asp is implemented/written wrong.

Should be 20% def bonus. This is one of the key ways reavers defense/gameplay works it's built on outlast and adding missrate is a key part of that. removing this may feel minor to tweaking styles but it's really not

Tue 25 May 2021 10:14 PM by DJ2000

Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:05 PM
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result....

Life of a visi solo.
Embrace it.

Tue 25 May 2021 10:40 PM by Hattrick

Alright, I had to take a minute to calm down before typing this so I didn't rage too badly. I just got done leveling a paladin to 50 and I was going to spec 50 thrust, foregoing having a decent spec in 2H, just to get Dragonfang. I just spent 20k feathers on a thruster last night too. These initial changes basically have scuttled that plan completely.

Can you please explain why you decided to nerf the bejeezus out of Dragonfang for pallies? I mean you had changed it to work off of block, a great change since paladins cannot evade. But now you decide to instead make it the 2nd part of chain off of block AND nerfed the duration from 9s to 8s? Meanwhile I'm looking over at BMs with a 10 second anytime stun in Blunt. I'm sorry, but no, I'm not buying that and I want my 20k feathers back if this goes live like this (kidding, but not kidding.) I see the change is the same for mercs so if you were trying to nerf mercs by making it harder for them to land Dragonfang, whatever. I don't agree with that either, but nerfing Dragonfang for paladins makes zero sense and it's completely unnecessary. I STRONGLY urge you to reconsider that.

Now that I covered my biggest beef, let me get to my other major complaint with what you did with the Thrust line, or in this case, didn't do. You didn't change Wyvernfang to chain off of something other than the freakin' detaunt style. I don't know that there is another style in the game that chains off of a detaunt. Detaunts get no style bonus and hence aren't of use in RvR. Change it to chain off of Liontooth instead, which you changed to a new anytimer.

As it stands right now, if these changes aren't adjusted, I can't see any reason to spec Thrust over Slash or Crush as a paladin. Dragonfang gave the line something different, a 9s stun you could use without having to resort to using a slow shield attack. With these changes though, I can't see any reason why I should stay Thrust on my paladin. All 3 lines have the same 2 part block chain ending with a stun but only Thrust requires maxing the line out at 50 points. Crush's stun style only requires speccing to 44 and Slash only 34 (albeit with only a 6s stun) which means you don't have to forego having a decent spec level in 2H weapons to obtain that off block chain. As far as bleeds go, Slash definitely appears to have superior bleed styles to Thrust and Crush seems to also. All 3 lines have a rear snare, so that's a wash and of course the fact remains that the slowest Thrust weapons are faster than the other two lines. Not digging it so far guys.

Tue 25 May 2021 10:46 PM by Tulpa

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:14 PM
Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:05 PM
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result....
Life of a visi solo.
Embrace it.

oh i have embraced the pain don't you worry about me... visi solo is suffering

Tue 25 May 2021 10:48 PM by Magesty

Paladins’ styles will be getting additional flavor.

Tue 25 May 2021 10:52 PM by Tulpa

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:48 PM
Paladins’ styles will be getting additional flavor.

yeah but what if you don't like surströmming flavored styles?

Tue 25 May 2021 11:08 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:52 PM
yeah but what if you don't like surströmming flavored styles?

Bitch and moan until you get the entire project scuttled, it's what you're going to do anyway.

Wed 26 May 2021 1:56 AM by Oddy1979

Give Thanes DD Styles pls.

Hib has the VW and Alb the Reaver.

Wed 26 May 2021 2:06 AM by easytoremember

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 11:08 PM
Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:52 PM
yeah but what if you don't like surströmming flavored styles?

Bitch and moan until you get the entire project scuttled, it's what you're going to do anyway.

They're not thin-skinned schoolgirls like you seem to believe, calm down

Oddy1979 wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 1:56 AM
Give Thanes DD Styles pls.

Hib has the VW and Alb the Reaver.

consider that Thane DD will likely be Energy damage and their having a Energy Debuff proc will make it hit harder

Wed 26 May 2021 2:15 AM by Tulpa

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 11:08 PM
Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:52 PM
yeah but what if you don't like surströmming flavored styles?

Bitch and moan until you get the entire project scuttled, it's what you're going to do anyway.

I have stated the problems I see, and have received no arguments in favour of them, just empty platitudes from people that are crying that we are speaking against this.

How about you pony up some actual arguments for said changes, specifically those to Hib LW which is the issues I outlined.

Until you have something of value to add I say "good day to you sir"

Wed 26 May 2021 4:53 AM by goten9033

Pierce spec level 25 has always been evade stun and bow we’re going to move it to 44? For what no ranger will spec that. Especially when blades gets it at 29.

Wed 26 May 2021 6:48 AM by Zonartica

The style level 44 is in the right place, ranger don't need it with all snare.
And ranger blades > pierces with debuff DQ, proc haste galla and bonus on stealthers

Wed 26 May 2021 7:02 AM by Ceen

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:40 PM
Alright, I had to take a minute to calm down before typing this so I didn't rage too badly. I just got done leveling a paladin to 50 and I was going to spec 50 thrust, foregoing having a decent spec in 2H, just to get Dragonfang. I just spent 20k feathers on a thruster last night too.

So why you do that right before the style change in the first place?

Wed 26 May 2021 7:05 AM by Noashakra

Zonartica wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 6:48 AM
The style level 44 is in the right place, ranger don't need it with all snare.
And ranger blades > pierces with debuff DQ, proc haste galla and bonus on stealthers

The aim of those changes was to make every spec viable. At the moment it's not really the case.

Wed 26 May 2021 7:15 AM by keen

Why is garotte still anytime snare?
Regarding the live char planner it should not have any hindered effect anymore.

Wed 26 May 2021 8:06 AM by evert

The more I think about this the worse it is. There really doesn't seem to be any thought behind it, just copy-pasting live styles that are totally inappropriate for this patch level, with completely random arrangements of stuff and no justification provided for anything. Every single time you make changes you get told its too much, too big, not thought through, and then you come back with another try at the same. I'm tired of having to post on the forums every 3 weeks to try to stop you from doing crazy things. You say you want to be conservative but this is anything but.

I just don't understand why you have to mess with existing lines and remove the things that made them special. I mean if you want you can move wizard pbae to fire and nukes to ice, that will "shake things up" but why are you so keen to mess with things that have been part of classic daoc for 20 years and work just fine (I specifically posted about minstrel slash/thrust since its such a perfect example of two completely viable lines, and of course you had to overhaul the whole thing)? What's been given as reasons is "some lines are unviable" (fine, then FIX THOSE LINES, somehow it worked with merc backsnare and LW sidesnare and... but it's impossible to fix axe for some reason), "we want the icons to match the styles" (lol), and "we want to add some effects to hybrids" (then add them, don't get why this requires changing everything).

There are obviously really serious individual issues that, to me, show that you've now spent close to a year working on your new styles and haven't actually done much thinking (great design team behind the 200-dmg bleed cap and the artifacts

) - can you please provide literally any justification, just a sentence each that shows you thought for 10 seconds about it, for 2 separate anytime chains with bleeds in slash, for the mid class with the big hammers that peels losing the snare in hammer, for off-evade stun in celtic spear, etc, etc, etc? But on top of that there are massive systemic issues that can't be fixed with tweaking and will completely change various metas, not conservative at all - all the bleeds with the custom bleed changes here, all the ASRs with no corresponding TOA bonuses, the positionals in CS, etc; and again no vision or justification given (since you just copy-pasted from live, lol).

I don't understand why you keep pushing big, not-fully-thought-through changes when there are huge amounts of issues where everyone would be happy for you to make a small change. Remember when everyone asked for merc backsnare for AGES and you wanted to redo all the styles instead? And then you put in the backsnare and it turned out to be a good idea, really easy to do, everyone is happy? Do more of that.

It's your server and you can do what you want, but I'm not gonna bother posting on the forum about every change anymore since you clearly don't get it.

Wed 26 May 2021 8:24 AM by Astaa

It's the first phase... more flavour will be added later.

I'm hardly a big fan of some recent changes but we need to give them a chance to try things out, people losing their shit over stuff just makes them stop changing things, and many things do need changing.

Give them a chance, try them out in the real world, come up with alternatives, suggestions, comments etc later.

From a 1v1 POV and purely from a hero perspective, more bleeds is good, seeing as they took away the LW side bleed in favour of another snare not so long ago, does a hero really need 2 positional snares and a positional stun, that's front side and back covered, that's on top of 1h blade snare and slam. The only bleed on LW atm is off enemy block.

I agree that sometimes changes are extreme and could perhaps be more subtle but sometimes, from a design point of view that is a good way of trying something out, and then dialling it back.

It's the server we play on, they don't have the resources for a test server and even if they did, who would use it? Edit, I am sure they have an internal testing platform but that can only give you so much feedback, especially in a game that caters for so many playstyles.

Wed 26 May 2021 8:32 AM by byron

I would suggest to calm down and wait the final version, this is a good opportunity to have a "fresh" game also for melee classes. Many of us are old Daoc players, do you remember that on every expansion a lot of things changed ?
Things can be optimized and fixed, we saw in the past that every change on this server was not final but the discussion between players and GMs is open. I'm lazy and I have not checked all the styles of all the classes but at the moment I see 2 major aspects that maybe can be watched at first :
1) I know that "old" hybrids will be looked into phase 2 but at the moment VMs and Reavers are too Op against Thanes and Champs for example (and maybe also against other melee classes). Maybe bring all the changes for all the hybrid together would be a good idea (it doesn't matter if they will be implemented on Phase 1 or Phase 2).
2) Light tanks : some styles need to be reviewed imho, all the classes has some styles to be reviewed (sword block chain on a zerk is quite impossible to use for example

) but blademaster seems ahead against other light tanks (long snare on the side and 50 blunt style... the shield spec is not necessary anymore for them so they will have also point to spec 50 weapon) while Savage seems a little behind since one of the major advantage they had (positional stun styles) now are shared with others light tanks.

Wed 26 May 2021 8:42 AM by Centenario

Please @Gruene tell us what is the schedule for adoption of the "new base"

I was quite surprised and didn't expect this base to be ready before September.

Usually in game dev you'd have a alpha build, then beta build then a release.

Is there a technical alpha test taking place and when? How easy is it to make the changes/revert them?
Will there be a beta release into the live phoenix server and when? How long till we consider beta to be the "new base", 2 month of testing, 2 weeks?
During beta how can players influence the "new base" to be released?

Can you explain the GR to Damage formula so we can double check your values quickly?

Wed 26 May 2021 8:48 AM by Kaldoris

Haven't read all the changes in details, but sure some classe with 25 long style chains could need some love.
As for myself it will be hard work but still think too that it could be a renew in melee classes. Crossing fingers for some VW love.

BTW with so much hate and love, I would suggest not to bring that on live to try it out, but rather as some mini events during, dunno 2days, a night during weekend, in the letter event zone, where you can create a lvl 50 char, that just lives for 2 days and gets deleted afterward. So you can test, tweak, add things, cancel things, without messing with the whole server balance. And you can repeat the test some days later

If you only focus on the forum comments you'll never get to something.

Wed 26 May 2021 9:10 AM by Blitze

My requirements for a successful style review would fall somewhere between the live styles and here!

For example I would like to build around the definitive styles of each spec . E.g. the hammer snares or pole anytime snare, or amethyst slash.

Wed 26 May 2021 9:29 AM by evert

Blitze wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 9:10 AM
My requirements for a successful style review would fall somewhere between the live styles and here!

For example I would like to build around the definitive styles of each spec . E.g. the hammer snares or pole anytime snare, or amethyst slash.

I would settle for a style review that shows any sign of actual thought and planning, instead of one with four after-block styles on a class that can't use shields. But maybe instead of complaining and doing paper daoc, I should wait to see how it is ingame. Maybe those styles will magically be useful - can't possibly tell without several weeks of messing up the server for testing.

Wed 26 May 2021 10:03 AM by Hattrick

Ceen wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 7:02 AM
Hattrick wrote: ↑
Tue 25 May 2021 10:40 PM
Alright, I had to take a minute to calm down before typing this so I didn't rage too badly. I just got done leveling a paladin to 50 and I was going to spec 50 thrust, foregoing having a decent spec in 2H, just to get Dragonfang. I just spent 20k feathers on a thruster last night too.
So why you do that right before the style change in the first place?

Because when I read the stated goals for this overhaul, never in a million years did I think they would put such a heavy nerf on Dragonfang. Here's what Gruen said:

Ideally, for any given class choosing between weapon lines should come down to personal preferences with each line having something unique that’s nice to have but not mandatory.

Now regarding paladins and Thrust spec, I'm absolutely in the minority in speccing Thrust. Most people spec Slash or Crush because the STR only lines will get you higher WS in the end, especially on say a Highlander. Given what they said, I didn't see any nerfs incoming for Thrust, especially not a savage gutting of the level 50 style. I mean why fix something that isn't broken? My expectations for the overhaul were that they would fix ridiculous stuff like Wyvernfang chaining off of the detaunt style. IMHO, it would have been ultra conservative of me to take a wait and see position on this because there was just nothing in the stated goals to indicate they were going to make speccing 50 Thrust worthless.

I'm hardly a big fan of some recent changes but we need to give them a chance to try things out, people losing their shit over stuff just makes them stop changing things, and many things do need changing.

Give them a chance, try them out in the real world, come up with alternatives, suggestions, comments etc later.

I don't really agree with you. If they didn't want feedback, why post the changes before implementation? They are obviously looking for feedback, something that they didn't do with the 'toy' fiasco, so good on them for that. I've been around the gaming world for a long time now and I have found it's easier to get things changed when they are still in the drawing board/testing phase than it is once they have been fully implemented into the game. Again, IMHO, now is the time to voice concerns, complaints, what have you.

Wed 26 May 2021 11:04 AM by Irkeno

Dual Shadows is Back to 26 bleed for infil? Needs nerfing back to its current phx value?

Wed 26 May 2021 11:10 AM by byron

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 10:03 AM
I don't really agree with you. If they didn't want feedback, why post the changes before implementation? They are obviously looking for feedback, something that they didn't do with the 'toy' fiasco, so good on them for that. I've been around the gaming world for a long time now and I have found it's easier to get things changed when they are still in the drawing board/testing phase than it is once they have been fully implemented into the game. Again, IMHO, now is the time to voice concerns, complaints, what have you.

Don't want to be the paladin of GMs (also because paladin is a class of another realm

I provided negative feedbacks too for changes or some mechanism on Phoenix) but this is a freeshard, it is not a server where you are paying for playing. So you can understand the difference about resources that they (we) can afford and they not and the different way the changes can be implemented. I think it will not kill anyone if we'll try all the styles for a week and then try to give an honest feedback about them.
Then the players feedback is important but it can't be the only way to decide if a change will be implemented or not since every player will for sure defend or ask more stuff for the class/realm he plays the most, it is human but it is not impartial.

Wed 26 May 2021 11:17 AM by goten9033

Diamondback stun should stay at 25 and not be touched no reason for it.

Wed 26 May 2021 11:51 AM by Hattrick

byron wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 11:10 AM
Hattrick wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 10:03 AM
I don't really agree with you. If they didn't want feedback, why post the changes before implementation? They are obviously looking for feedback, something that they didn't do with the 'toy' fiasco, so good on them for that. I've been around the gaming world for a long time now and I have found it's easier to get things changed when they are still in the drawing board/testing phase than it is once they have been fully implemented into the game. Again, IMHO, now is the time to voice concerns, complaints, what have you.

Don't want to be the paladin of GMs (also because paladin is a class of another realm I provided negative feedbacks too for changes or some mechanism on Phoenix) but this is a freeshard, it is not a server where you are paying for playing. So you can understand the difference about resources that they (we) can afford and they not and the different way the changes can be implemented. I think it will not kill anyone if we'll try all the styles for a week and then try to give an honest feedback about them.
Then the players feedback is important but it can't be the only way to decide if a change will be implemented or not since every player will for sure defend or ask more stuff for the class/realm he plays the most, it is human but it is not impartial.

I get where you're coming from and I understand it's a freeshard. That said, the time I invest playing here is worth far more to me than the paltry $12 to $15 a month I used to pay for a subscription to this game when Mythic ran it. Also, free or no, if they make changes that drive all their players away, the server will end up a 24/7 ghost town like Uthgard is now.

That said, I would say think logically about this. If they didn't want feedback on these changes (good, bad or indifferent) before they implemented them, they wouldn't have announced them prior to implementing them. Logic dictates they want the feedback and we should provide it. If they can't handle people disagreeing with them, they picked the wrong hobby.

Wed 26 May 2021 12:07 PM by Saroi

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 10:03 AM
Now regarding paladins and Thrust spec, I'm absolutely in the minority in speccing Thrust. Most people spec Slash or Crush because the STR only lines will get you higher WS in the end, especially on say a Highlander. Given what they said, I didn't see any nerfs incoming for Thrust, especially not a savage gutting of the level 50 style. I mean why fix something that isn't broken? My expectations for the overhaul were that they would fix ridiculous stuff like Wyvernfang chaining off of the detaunt style. IMHO, it would have been ultra conservative of me to take a wait and see position on this because there was just nothing in the stated goals to indicate they were going to make speccing 50 Thrust worthless.

Playing Paladin myself, 50 Thrust is already worthless.

Most don't spec slash or crush because of the Str, it is simple because of the 2h. Crush has a slow 2h dot with a decent anytimer(And followup stun) if you have 1h. Slash has the big benefit of Apo with the 200 abla, riposte and amethyst as styles for 1h.

If you go 1h/shield, then thrust is better but not for Dragonfang. The sole purpose is the d/q debuff thruster, combined with your 34% asr side style(Slash has no asr and crush a 18% after parry). You got a 2part bleed anytime and a backstyle bleed to cap bleedstacking to compensate missing damage. 50 in Thrust would make you lose so much parry and definitely not worth it.

With style changes you still have the 2part anytime bleed, backstyle bleed is missing though. ASR got a slight nerf to 30% but wyvernfang got a 30% asr too. You got a good anytimer now with a low defense bonus as soon as bleeds are stacked. Thrust keeps the advantage of having easier access to strong ASR.

Looking at the Two Hand line on Albion. Hammer and especially LW are far superior for solo play. Style changes will close that gap a bit, allthough Hammer and LW will get their strong asr directly of parry style while two hand has it as a followup. But atleast I won't have to run around with a crap 0,41 gr anytimer anymore. Rile(taunt) does a bit more damage atm but it has medium defense penalty. Looking at Fury (after parry) with high defense penalty. This would just mean that the enemy will never miss with atleast low to hit attack. So that is not an option. Both style also just have a low to hit bonus while on LW/Hammer theirs have medium to hit.

Wed 26 May 2021 12:14 PM by nono31

I play stealthers , 3 realms

So , no more Shadowzerker / thrust stun spec infi ? ( 3 directs stuns (2/6/9 sec) became 1 on 2nd part chain at 50 spec ? lol )

All go 50 CS for 45 and 50 styles ? that sad

Wed 26 May 2021 12:24 PM by byron

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 11:51 AM
I get where you're coming from and I understand it's a freeshard. That said, the time I invest playing here is worth far more to me than the paltry $12 to $15 a month I used to pay for a subscription to this game when Mythic ran it. Also, free or no, if they make changes that drive all their players away, the server will end up a 24/7 ghost town like Uthgard is now.

That said, I would say think logically about this. If they didn't want feedback on these changes (good, bad or indifferent) before they implemented them, they wouldn't have announced them prior to implementing them. Logic dictates they want the feedback and we should provide it. If they can't handle people disagreeing with them, they picked the wrong hobby.

Don't know if you read all my post. About feedbacks : for sure they want the feedback of the player but I think that the feedbacks need to be mitigated. If all players say : "guys this weapon line of this class sucks because it misses ...." or "this style is too OP compared to similar classes of other realms..." , I'm sure they will look into them (as for toys, they were canceled as the majority of the feedbacks were negative) but other feedbacks are maybe not so impartial because they are specific for that player and class that maybe every player would like to be stronger, this type of feedback is not so impartial because it looks only on personal perspective of the played class or the playstyle (duels, 8vs8, zerg, etc..).
I would not like to loose this occasion to have something fresh only because arsman players will loose anytime snare for example (they will have back and side on pole). As I wrote before I've not checked all the styles but for sure something need to be tweaked but I'm available also to try these styles on live for a while if this can help to tweak all the styles better, don't see any drama here.

ps: then, to have a complete overview of all the changes, I would like to have an idea of the damage comparison between actual style and the new ones. Effects are not everything.

Wed 26 May 2021 1:35 PM by gotwqqd

I think they missed the opportunity to change 4-5 styles in each line(class specific), along with a mechanic that reduces the penalty for long chains due to the system implemented to make them viable.

Wed 26 May 2021 2:09 PM by hachetay

Let see how it goes live and how the “flavors” will look like.
Funny how people are always afraid of changes. Fear of the unknown.
Embrace it, getting out of the comfort zone can be exciting sometimes. Moreover the devs do these modifications while asking for feedbacks, this means we will hopefully be able to help in the process that’s looks like trail and error.

Wed 26 May 2021 2:15 PM by Peppar

plz dont change dual shadow the 50 style in dw line ..also alb crush Contusions reduced to 4 sec from 6 sec as a merc crush spec i see my options reduced while bm gets improvements in 10 sec blunt parry stun also a parry stun in cd also they have side stun before, also zerks gets side stun+parry stun,,

Wed 26 May 2021 2:35 PM by Thaloria

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 12:28 PM
Style requirements will be changed
The client automatically applies the requirement indicators based on the used style icon and we consider it very much desirable to have those indicators match the actual requirements, to keep consistency this will mean taking the live requirements and chains.

May you be more specific what the actual benefit from moving to the live styles and chains is?
Is it something that makes maintaining the code-base easier or directly impacts the in-game experience (like it gets harder to strafe a positional in)?

Wed 26 May 2021 2:55 PM by Magesty

When this thread first came out, and I was discussing these changes with a friend I told him I didn't think we'd see an updated list for at least two months. My logic being it would probably take two to three weeks for the devs to work through each realm's styles and create a baseline style set for phase 1. Given the fairly vague nature of the announcement this seemed like a reasonable conclusion, assuming a relatively low amount of average time per day put to the task and an existing framework already being borrowed from live. I thought the approach would include laying out each line and making sure that they fit well into the existing server ruleset and were balanced comparatively. Obviously, with the idea of a phase one being the absolute most basic starting point, you're still going to have some holes to cover up, but the process of building up style lines by adding power/flavor is much easier when the base is strong, consistent, and already suits the server ruleset. It seemed clear, after reading through this thread, that something similar to that approach that would be taken.

Instead, we got copy/pasted styles from live within two weeks with little alteration. So now the baseline being worked from is made to fit a game that has undergone some 15+ years of changes. It's like taking a heavily formatted Word document that someone else made for a specific purpose and then trying to force your content into it. Try as you might every additional word or image you add dislocates something further down the line. In an attempt to save time and leverage existing material you've actually just created a monster that takes no end of jiggering to get right. The wiser decision, even though it may not seem to be at the time, is to forgo utilizing the existing material in its entirety and instead just use it as a guide while creating your own document. It may seem like more work at the beginning, but it is far more efficient in the long run. You can spend more time focusing on what you're trying to create, the vision you have, rather than going back and fixing formatting issues.

Perhaps not the best analogy, but I'm not nearly worldly enough to come up with something better. Personally, I'm still optimistic about the style changes, and I hope we see them come to fruition in some form, but this starting point just seems to be... careless.

Wed 26 May 2021 4:33 PM by inoeth

Magesty wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 2:55 PM
When this thread first came out, and I was discussing these changes with a friend I told him I didn't think we'd see an updated list for at least two months. My logic being it would probably take two to three weeks for the devs to work through each realm's styles and create a baseline style set for phase 1. Given the fairly vague nature of the announcement this seemed like a reasonable conclusion, assuming a relatively low amount of average time per day put to the task and an existing framework already being borrowed from live. I thought the approach would include laying out each line and making sure that they fit well into the existing server ruleset and were balanced comparatively. Obviously, with the idea of a phase one being the absolute most basic starting point, you're still going to have some holes to cover up, but the process of building up style lines by adding power/flavor is much easier when the base is strong, consistent, and already suits the server ruleset. It seemed clear, after reading through this thread, that something similar to that approach that would be taken.

Instead, we got copy/pasted styles from live within two weeks with little alteration. So now the baseline being worked from is made to fit a game that has undergone some 15+ years of changes. It's like taking a heavily formatted Word document that someone else made for a specific purpose and then trying to force your content into it. Try as you might every additional word or image you add dislocates something further down the line. In an attempt to save time and leverage existing material you've actually just created a monster that takes no end of jiggering to get right. The wiser decision, even though it may not seem to be at the time, is to forgo utilizing the existing material in its entirety and instead just use it as a guide while creating your own document. It may seem like more work at the beginning, but it is far more efficient in the long run. You can spend more time focusing on what you're trying to create, the vision you have, rather than going back and fixing formatting issues.

Perhaps not the best analogy, but I'm not nearly worldly enough to come up with something better. Personally, I'm still optimistic about the style changes, and I hope we see them come to fruition in some form, but this starting point just seems to be... careless.

gruenesschaf and uthred are german guys, you know german efficiency n stuff

Wed 26 May 2021 4:44 PM by Egonek

Albion Paladin/arms TANKS as peeler.

I see a big disadvantage for albs.

If you want have 1h back and side peel you need to spec crush or slash

Slash
lvl 39 back peel (i dont understand why the peel style is on this high lvl)
lvl 21 side peel

Crush (no Autotrain)
lvl 24 back peel
lvl 34 back peel
i think nobody want go crush. 1. slow 2h weapons. and no autotrain.

if you want go for slash and you want do max dmg with 2H you need to spec:

Arms:
39 slash
50 2H
42 slam
13 parry

For Paladin its soooo bad.. realy i CRY with all Paladins:
39 slash
50 2H
42 slam
42 songs
2 PARRY!!

between midgard you lose so much defence as guarder/peeler its amazing how unbalanced this is.

Midgard:
50 Weapon (full DPS 1h + 2H)
50 Schield (max GUARD)
31 Parry

Warrior has 26 more spec points in defence + CAP damage with 1H.

the Difference is MUUUCH to high here. of you use Dashing Defence the warrior is so much better vs. Dualwilder as albion.

I am frustrated...

normaly you can drop some points in 1H in albion if you get higher RR to get the +52 1H to do still cap dmg with 2H.
And then you have some points more for defence.

but now you cant.

Some Changes on this patch are realy nice like the 4s back peel for zerker/BM/mercs ahh sry mercs you lose your back peel again
But some changes incomprehensible like this.

Wed 26 May 2021 5:37 PM by Centenario

@Egonek
great feedback, its obviously needs a lot of rework to be a good "base".

Wed 26 May 2021 5:48 PM by Drawo99

when does this change come on the server?

Wed 26 May 2021 5:50 PM by Saroi

Egonek wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 4:44 PM
For Paladin its soooo bad.. realy i CRY with all Paladins:

Please cry for yourself and let my Paladin out of this. My Pala wants this style change.

Wed 26 May 2021 5:51 PM by Saroi

Drawo99 wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 5:48 PM
when does this change come on the server?

according to what Grün wrote at the start, it should be by the end of this week.

Wed 26 May 2021 11:55 PM by Jodocus_Quak

I dont understand the need to change the styles, when they have been tried and tested over a long time and nobody has complained about them. What I see is not that the styles arent working, but overzealous devs who want change for the sake of change, because they feel the HAVE to always work on something (doing nothing is no option).

I recall that Uthgard2 died, because those devs never wanted to deviate from the 1.65 patch, even when the community asked for quality of life changes (aging daoc community cant committ to their gaming time from younger days). Maybe it will break this server, maybe not. But if a new freeshard somehow comes along or a daoc classic server (old frontiers with core daoc feeling and some quality of life changes) and phoenix pop really declines, ppl may point to these changes as a key reason.

Thu 27 May 2021 12:23 AM by gotwqqd

Jodocus_Quak wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 11:55 PM
I dont understand the need to change the styles, when they have been tried and tested over a long time and nobody has complained about them. What I see is not that the styles arent working, but overzealous devs who want change for the sake of change, because they feel the HAVE to always work on something (doing nothing is no option).

I recall that Uthgard2 died, because those devs never wanted to deviate from the 1.65 patch, even when the community asked for quality of life changes (aging daoc community cant committ to their gaming time from younger days). Maybe it will break this server, maybe not. But if a new freeshard somehow comes along or a daoc classic server (old frontiers with core daoc feeling and some quality of life changes) and phoenix pop really declines, ppl may point to these changes as a key reason.

Not true
There are many lines that are inferior as they aren’t an option
There are styles that make zero sense where they are placed or for the class that can spec
There are also the long chains that are broken due to the system implemented to reduce streaks
I don’t think the devs are doing for the sake of doing
They seem to think building off of lives complete overhaul is better than changing 4-6 styles per line

Thu 27 May 2021 1:35 AM by Jingo NZ

Some positive feedback, looks like the hunter spear styles include a number of modest but genuine improvements.

Extra 2 sec on rear stun allows this to be a signature move.

Side opening snare is good to have over the 2 step anytime snare (although to hit bonus is low which is a
problem for the fights hunters get into with debuffs).

And the improvement to the 34 anytime style is a good staple for the class.

ASR on 2part anytime as well as evade reaction provides some flexibility. Good job. (Apart from low to hit on both snare styles).

Thu 27 May 2021 3:19 AM by bigb21281994

making levi a style chain would be the worst thing this server has ever done

Thu 27 May 2021 3:40 AM by Tulpa

bigb21281994 wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 3:19 AM
making levi a style chain would be the worst thing this server has ever done

As a champ who fights a lot of Reavers and complains about it being OP'd you might assume i'd support the change.

But you'd be wrong, I also think its a silly thing to do... similarly to make the hib LW rear stun a chain style.

Ruins class making features for what I can only figure is "just because".

Thu 27 May 2021 6:22 AM by Sepplord

Egonek wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 4:44 PM
Albion Paladin/arms TANKS as peeler.

I see a big disadvantage for albs.

If you want have 1h back and side peel you need to spec crush or slash

Slash
lvl 39 back peel (i dont understand why the peel style is on this high lvl)
lvl 21 side peel

Crush (no Autotrain)
lvl 24 back peel
lvl 34 back peel
i think nobody want go crush. 1. slow 2h weapons. and no autotrain.

if you want go for slash and you want do max dmg with 2H you need to spec:

Arms:
39 slash
50 2H
42 slam
13 parry

For Paladin its soooo bad.. realy i CRY with all Paladins:
39 slash
50 2H
42 slam
42 songs
2 PARRY!!

between midgard you lose so much defence as guarder/peeler its amazing how unbalanced this is.

Midgard:
50 Weapon (full DPS 1h + 2H)
50 Schield (max GUARD)
31 Parry

Warrior has 26 more spec points in defence + CAP damage with 1H.

the Difference is MUUUCH to high here. of you use Dashing Defence the warrior is so much better vs. Dualwilder as albion.

I am frustrated...

normaly you can drop some points in 1H in albion if you get higher RR to get the +52 1H to do still cap dmg with 2H.
And then you have some points more for defence.

but now you cant.

Some Changes on this patch are realy nice like the 4s back peel for zerker/BM/mercs ahh sry mercs you lose your back peel again
But some changes incomprehensible like this.

So, let me check if i got this correctly

Midgard, who has forever had really long back and sidesnares in one weaponline gets those snares nerfed, while Paladin is getting multiple different options for positional and anytimer-chain snares.

And that somehow is a disadvantage for Albion and Paladins?

Was that your argument? Or am i missing something?

Thu 27 May 2021 7:18 AM by easytoremember

Egonek wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 4:44 PM
Albion Paladin/arms TANKS as peeler.

I see a big disadvantage for albs.

If you want have 1h back and side peel you need to spec crush or slash

Slash
lvl 39 back peel (i dont understand why the peel style is on this high lvl)
lvl 21 side peel

Crush (no Autotrain)
lvl 24 back peel
lvl 34 back peel
i think nobody want go crush. 1. slow 2h weapons. and no autotrain.

if you want go for slash and you want do max dmg with 2H you need to spec:

Arms:
39 slash
50 2H
42 slam
13 parry

For Paladin its soooo bad.. realy i CRY with all Paladins:
39 slash
50 2H
42 slam
42 songs
2 PARRY!!

between midgard you lose so much defence as guarder/peeler its amazing how unbalanced this is.

Midgard:
50 Weapon (full DPS 1h + 2H)
50 Schield (max GUARD)
31 Parry

Warrior has 26 more spec points in defence + CAP damage with 1H.

A bit unrelated to the styles but why do you expect to be able to sink points into max 2h, comp damage type, get slam, go deep chants, and then throw points into parry?
You're a Paladin, not a Warrior, not an Armsman. Getting high or cap 2h damage should come with sacrifice, be it foregoing parry in favor of slam, foregoing slam in favor of parry, or cutting back 2h to boost parry a bit, because you're the bulkiest physical bulk running around with plate and AF chants (and resists if you're an AHK monkey).

Thu 27 May 2021 7:27 AM by inoeth

was really wondering why any pala should spec 50 2h too

and why 39 slash? compo is enough! you get the snares in 2h spec, yes i know slow weapon is not optimal for snaring but you gotta sacrifice somewhere....

Thu 27 May 2021 7:37 AM by Noashakra

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 7:27 AM
was really wondering why any pala should spec 50 2h too
and why 39 slash? compo is enough! you get the snares in 2h spec, yes i know slow weapon is not optimal for snaring but you gotta sacrifice somewhere....

2H slash is 4.4.
My paladin is 44 2h to have a bit more in parry.
Comparing paladins with chants with a warrior is not really smart yeah...

Thu 27 May 2021 8:20 AM by byron

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 7:37 AM
Comparing paladins with chants with a warrior is not really smart yeah...

yeah, it is like complaining that Thanes can't go 50 weapon, 42 shield and 50 SC . Speaking of hybrids, I bet that we'll see soon a lot of VWs in the frontier :p

Thu 27 May 2021 8:38 AM by SlowMo

Can we get Dummies which allow reactionary Styles for testing purposes?

And maybe the opportunity for temporary free skill respecs when this update hits?

Thu 27 May 2021 9:23 AM by Hattrick

bigb21281994 wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 3:19 AM
making levi a style chain would be the worst thing this server has ever done

Leviathan requirement is still only rear positional. Do you know something the rest of us don't or are you just muddying the water unnecessarily?

Thu 27 May 2021 9:29 AM by DJ2000

Bard:

Blades: Snares: 34-"Revenging Blade" back (19 sec.); 10-"Glowing Blade" side (14sec.)

Block: -
*
no shield spec, but can wear a shield.

Parry: -
*
no parry spec

Evade: 4 ASR (16%) - 12 BLEED (13); 21 BLEED (20) - 25 ASR (26%); at 29 a single style with a 6sec. stun,
*
Base Evade 2; the possibility to evade is rather LOW.
In the best case would be to use the 29-"Dancing Blade" 6-sec Stun with the +15 toHit.
Next best case would be the 4-12 chain, as the opener has ASR on it.
There is no hope to land 21-25 Chain early in a fight for the 26%-ASR on the followup.

Anytime: 18 - 39 ASR (30%): nice anytime at 44 (+10 toHit)
*
44-"Prismatic Blade" is a good Anytime with +10 toHit and low endu cost and fairly decent damage for an anytime style
The 18-39 chain is not good. Only reason to use it would be to apply the 30%-ASR on the followup; other than that its low damage and high endu cost just to apply the ASR once.

Back: 34 SNARE (19 sec.) - 50 BLEED (32); highest damage chain
*
The chain itself is fine on paper, but its far beyond any Blades spec a Bard could go for;
so if anything the opener 34-"Revenging Blade" would/could be fine on its own; yet even that is questionable for a Bard

Front: -

Side: 10 SNARE (14 sec.) - 15 ASR (20%);
*
Unfortunately, this chain might be the only 2 styles a bard could ever have ...or even needs.
This side-chain is far superior to the 18-39 anytimer chain. More damage, lower endu cos and, slightly better +toHit.
The ASR might be lower value, but that doesn't matter as the usability and damage of both styles far outweighs the lower ASR value.
Combine all that with the fact that the opener is a SNARE. This pretty much means that Bards are stuck to (ab)use this side-chain over and over.

Noteworthy takeaways for Blades:
+ Evade 6sec Stun at 29
+ SNARE-ASR Side chain at 10-15
~ Decent 44 Anytimer, to high spec
~ 39 SNARE Back
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blunt: Snares: 25-"Back Crush" back (15 sec.); on followup 10 - 21-"Unstoppable Force" side (19 sec.)

Block: -
*
no shield spec, but can wear a shield.

Parry: 39 ASR (30%) - 50 STUN (10 sec.)
*
no parry spec
...why the strongest chain of the entire Blunt spec is on a after-parry reactionary for a class that has NO parry is beyond me.
The mere fact that it has a very high spec requirement to even fulfill, would have made it very costly for a Bard to go for.
Maybe switch to after-enemy-parry/block ? To an Front/anytime chain? Whatever the case, this has to change.

Evade: 4 STUN (3 sec.) - 12 BLEED (13)
*
Base Evade 2; the possibility to evade is rather LOW.
Knowing that, the opener 4-"Bruiser" with a 3 sec. stun seems rather useful to use the short stun for a positional.
The followup on the other hand is completely forgettable and a waste of the 3sec stun the opener presents.

Anytime: No chains, just 2 single styles. the lackluster 18 and the pretty decent 34 (+10 toHit/Def)
*
Not much available here, but among it is the really good 34-"Mauler", which is not only better than the 44-Blades anytimer, but also earlier available.
The other one can simply be ignored as is, maybe switch it to something more useful?

Back: 25 SNARE (15 sec.) - 44 (no effect)
*
Back snare at 25 is rather easy to attain. The 25-44 chain itself is a bit lackluster though.
Damage wise it's behind the 34 anytimer, so not many incentives to go for the 44 followup, which does have a +20 toHit, but that's hardly worth the cost.

Front: -

Side: 10 ASR (20%) - 21 SNARE (19 sec.)
*
This almost as strong as the Blades counterpart, albeit a bit higher cost.
If werent for the more powerful 34 anytimer in the Blunt line, this would also be the go-to chain for a Bard.

After Enemy Evade: 15 ASR (22%) - 29 BLEED (20)
*
Apart from the non-accessible parry chain, this is the highest damage chain Blunt can offer.
For those Bards that feel comfortable enough to not be stuck in a kite-run playstyle, this chain offers alternatives.

Noteworthy takeaways for Blunt:
+ good Anytimer at 34
+ Back snare at 25
+ ASR-SNARE Side chain at 10-21
+ 3sec. Stun as early as 4
+ After-Enemy-Evade chain at 15-29
- Parry chain on a class with NO parry
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solo Bard:
You want at least 9 Regrowth for the cures
You want at least 43 Nurture for the Speed
You want at least 29 Music for the single instant-Mezz (depends on Weapon spec)
You can put a maximum of 39 in any of the 2 weapon lines.

(if you forgo the entire music line, then you can push a weapon line to 49. But to hit 50, u need to lose the cures as well.)

Conclusion?
1. Viable Blades specs
10 for the Side Snare ; which leaves you with 29/34/37/44/47 Music <------- General Bard spec.
15 for the Side chain ; which leaves you with 29/34/37/44 Music <------- solo kite-run/small/8man spec.
29 for the Evade Stun ; which leaves you with 29/34/37 Music <------- solo kite-run/small/8man spec.
34 for the Back Snare ; which leaves you with 29/34 Music <------- solo kite-run/small spec.
Going any lower or even higher to 39-50 is questionable at best.

2. Viable Blunt specs
21 for Side Chain, Evade stun, Enemy-evade ASR ; which leaves you with 29/34/37/44 Music <------- solo kite-run/small spec.
25 for back Snare ; which leaves you with 29/34/37 Music <------- solo kite-run/small/8man spec.
34 for Anytimer ; which leaves you with 29/34 Music <------- solo 1v1/kite-run/small spec.
Going any lower or even higher is not only questionable, but actually not an option.

3. ???
15 Blades + 34 Blunt + 29 Music + 43 Nurture + 9 Regrowth
10 Blades + 34 Blunt + 29 Music + 43 Nurture + 17 Regrowth
15 Blades + 25 Blunt + 37 Music + 43 Nurture + 14 Regrowth <------- paper DaoC
29 Blades + 25 Blunt + 29 Music + 43 Nurture + 11 Regrowth <------- paper DaoC at its best

4. If staying for a 1v1, go Blunt. Otherwise, the Bard is still stuck at/to kite-run as solo, ...if solo were an option. And no, it's not.
For Kite-run the Blades spec is preferable, just as it was before the change.

5. Long story short: Nothing really changed for the Bard.

Thu 27 May 2021 9:57 AM by Astaa

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 8:38 AM
Can we get Dummies which allow reactionary Styles for testing purposes?

Loads at boat drop offs

Thu 27 May 2021 9:57 AM by Ceen

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 9:29 AM
5. Long story short: Nothing really changed for the Bard.

5. Long story short: No one really cares about Solo Bard.

Thu 27 May 2021 10:00 AM by DJ2000

Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 9:57 AM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 9:29 AM
5. Long story short: Nothing really changed for the Bard.
5. Long story short: No one really cares about Solo Bard.

True Story.

Thu 27 May 2021 10:32 AM by Bradekes

I think this is a great starting point! The only problems I see are some inconsistencies with growthrates where some classes have lower level styles with same requirements as their level 50 style that have higher growth rates, which should never be. Other than that and some things I assume to be entry error mistakes (level 50 blunt style on bm for examp) I would be very tempted to start playing again!

Thu 27 May 2021 2:38 PM by soremir

I for one am excited for this. While Im not super stoked for everything in here, I do think changing up the styles is great. We have been having the same melee fights for years now. Something new and different and giving us something else new to learn is a good thing.

I will say that my only real concern here is that reading through these sets of styles, my impression is that they are all very similar. Hit a side style or a reactionary for a stun. Everyone has a similar Attack Speed debuff. Even the values are similar, so hit an evade reactionary for 1.5X damage over the anytimer etc (or whatever it is). The style tools are moved around a bit in specs, but generally everyone is getting a similar toolset with a couple of exceptions. I know that is the point of Phase 1 of this, but I cant help but think that we are just bringing a lot of these classes so much closer together, where one of the great thing about DAOC is the exact opposite (the massive asymmetry in what classes can and cannot do). I know the flavor parts of Phase 2 & 3 will change this for some classes, but I dont really like the idea of an Armsman being a warrior with plate, and Hero being an Armsman with moose etc.

Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 PM by gotwqqd

What’s wilth the over emphasis on needing to overcome game mechanics and land side style for the best effects/damage.

Thu 27 May 2021 4:45 PM by Bradekes

Can we make all level 1 styles have half the growth rate of the lvl 2 style and half the bleed effect? It seems so pointless to make a level 2 style for every weapon line instead of having a semi useful level 1 style lol.. or would level 1 toons be too OP with such tools lol.

Also maybe make a lot of the level 50 styles worth it as I see a lot of worthless level 50 styles when compared to lower level styles with similar or the exact same requirements. If you don't want to just add extra growthrate maybe have some level 50 styles have two effects like weaponspeed debuff and a second effect of bleed on same style to give some benefit to spending those extra skill points

Thu 27 May 2021 5:47 PM by Islandsbrygge

I don't see growth rates resembles live date. But again dev did not ask us to evaluate that part. So hopefully this part still needs update.

Fri 28 May 2021 11:57 AM by

gruenesschaf

The actual implementation will be delayed by a bit. Updates to the styles will be published on the weekend, either as an update to the styles charplanner or some page specifically made for the styles.

Among other things the next style preview will include some changes to reactive requirements to better fit the classes and their lack of certain defensives, reshuffle some attack debuff values and either make the thane lines more similar to the warrior one or add a handful of dd procs (as was originally intended for a later iteration after going live), infi dual shadows will also have the reduced bleed effect again.

Fri 28 May 2021 12:24 PM by Sepplord

i understand why you can't mention every single class/line that will get changes, but since you mentioned a few high-concern issues, could you tell us impatient people if the current BM lvl50 crush-style is an error or being reworked or if it is intended because that spec has less snare options?

Fri 28 May 2021 12:46 PM by byron

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 11:57 AM
The actual implementation will be delayed by a bit. Updates to the styles will be published on the weekend, either as an update to the styles charplanner or some page specifically made for the styles.

Among other things the next style preview will include some changes to reactive requirements to better fit the classes and their lack of certain defensives, reshuffle some attack debuff values and either make the thane lines more similar to the warrior one or add a handful of dd procs (as was originally intended for a later iteration after going live), infi dual shadows will also have the reduced bleed effect again.

Nice ! Thanks for the work you are doing, I'm very curious to check the new version over the weekend

Fri 28 May 2021 1:21 PM by

gruenesschaf

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 12:24 PM
i understand why you can't mention every single class/line that will get changes, but since you mentioned a few high-concern issues, could you tell us impatient people if the current BM lvl50 crush-style is an error or being reworked or if it is intended because that spec has less snare options?

Should be a reactive follow up like for the other blunt user

Fri 28 May 2021 1:26 PM by Kwall0311

Alb thrust should keep 34% on side ASR. Scouts already are among the worst of melee, and their counterparts now have 34% asr, 20 bleed, and frontal snare all in only 39 CD spec (ranger).

Fri 28 May 2021 2:08 PM by borodino1812

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 1:21 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 12:24 PM
i understand why you can't mention every single class/line that will get changes, but since you mentioned a few high-concern issues, could you tell us impatient people if the current BM lvl50 crush-style is an error or being reworked or if it is intended because that spec has less snare options?

Should be a reactive follow up like for the other blunt user

Most of the anytime snares have gone, but CS 18 - Garrote - still has an anytime snare. Is the intention to keep this as at present?

Fri 28 May 2021 3:42 PM by nono31

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 1:26 PM
Alb thrust should keep 34% on side ASR. Scouts already are among the worst of melee, and their counterparts now have 34% asr, 20 bleed, and frontal snare all in only 39 CD spec (ranger).

Scouts stun and perma root with shield, they dont need To go melee...
The shield root is up from 10s To 14s...

Fri 28 May 2021 4:03 PM by Kwall0311

nono31 wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 3:42 PM
Scouts stun and perma root with shield, they dont need To go melee...

You obviously dont play the game if you stay this lol.

Fri 28 May 2021 4:07 PM by Egonek

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 6:22 AM
Egonek wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 4:44 PM
Albion Paladin/arms TANKS as peeler.

I see a big disadvantage for albs.

If you want have 1h back and side peel you need to spec crush or slash

Slash
lvl 39 back peel (i dont understand why the peel style is on this high lvl)
lvl 21 side peel

Crush (no Autotrain)
lvl 24 back peel
lvl 34 back peel
i think nobody want go crush. 1. slow 2h weapons. and no autotrain.

if you want go for slash and you want do max dmg with 2H you need to spec:

Arms:
39 slash
50 2H
42 slam
13 parry

For Paladin its soooo bad.. realy i CRY with all Paladins:
39 slash
50 2H
42 slam
42 songs
2 PARRY!!

between midgard you lose so much defence as guarder/peeler its amazing how unbalanced this is.

Midgard:
50 Weapon (full DPS 1h + 2H)
50 Schield (max GUARD)
31 Parry

Warrior has 26 more spec points in defence + CAP damage with 1H.

the Difference is MUUUCH to high here. of you use Dashing Defence the warrior is so much better vs. Dualwilder as albion.

I am frustrated...

normaly you can drop some points in 1H in albion if you get higher RR to get the +52 1H to do still cap dmg with 2H.
And then you have some points more for defence.

but now you cant.

Some Changes on this patch are realy nice like the 4s back peel for zerker/BM/mercs ahh sry mercs you lose your back peel again
But some changes incomprehensible like this.

So, let me check if i got this correctly

Midgard, who has forever had really long back and sidesnares in one weaponline gets those snares nerfed, while Paladin is getting multiple different options for positional and anytimer-chain snares.

And that somehow is a disadvantage for Albion and Paladins?
Was that your argument? Or am i missing something?

1. YES!
2. nerf for Paladin and BIGGGGG nerf for Armsman.
3. MIDGARD get NERFED!?!? you mean WARRIOR??
- His BACKPEEL has now a 10% hit chance. before 0% (LOVE)
- He can spec NOW AXE for side + back peel (LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
where is here your nerf on midgard??
4. paladin/arms are now more FAR away from the UTILITY as warrior!!

Fri 28 May 2021 4:07 PM by Noashakra

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 11:57 AM
The actual implementation will be delayed by a bit. Updates to the styles will be published on the weekend, either as an update to the styles charplanner or some page specifically made for the styles.

Among other things the next style preview will include some changes to reactive requirements to better fit the classes and their lack of certain defensives, reshuffle some attack debuff values and either make the thane lines more similar to the warrior one or add a handful of dd procs (as was originally intended for a later iteration after going live), infi dual shadows will also have the reduced bleed effect again.

Nice

Fri 28 May 2021 4:20 PM by Egonek

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 7:18 AM
Egonek wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 4:44 PM
Albion Paladin/arms TANKS as peeler.

I see a big disadvantage for albs.

If you want have 1h back and side peel you need to spec crush or slash

Slash
lvl 39 back peel (i dont understand why the peel style is on this high lvl)
lvl 21 side peel

Crush (no Autotrain)
lvl 24 back peel
lvl 34 back peel
i think nobody want go crush. 1. slow 2h weapons. and no autotrain.

if you want go for slash and you want do max dmg with 2H you need to spec:

Arms:
39 slash
50 2H
42 slam
13 parry

For Paladin its soooo bad.. realy i CRY with all Paladins:
39 slash
50 2H
42 slam
42 songs
2 PARRY!!

between midgard you lose so much defence as guarder/peeler its amazing how unbalanced this is.

Midgard:
50 Weapon (full DPS 1h + 2H)
50 Schield (max GUARD)
31 Parry

Warrior has 26 more spec points in defence + CAP damage with 1H.
A bit unrelated to the styles but why do you expect to be able to sink points into max 2h, comp damage type, get slam, go deep chants, and then throw points into parry?
You're a Paladin, not a Warrior, not an Armsman. Getting high or cap 2h damage should come with sacrifice, be it foregoing parry in favor of slam, foregoing slam in favor of parry, or cutting back 2h to boost parry a bit, because you're the bulkiest physical bulk running around with plate and AF chants (and resists if you're an AHK monkey).

I think you dont understand.

A PALADIN have to SPEC songs for ENDU!!!!!

All tanks in Midgard get it for free from sham... and you has ALWAYS a sham in grp....

Other example.
what all other hybrids get in his hybrid spec....
Thane=
1. instant DD 1500 range
2. Strong quick cast DD
3. nice AOE cast DD
4. instant PBAOE DD
5. s/c BUFF
6. damage add
7. melee resist debuff.

VW=
1. Lifeleech
2. self MHB
3. HUGEEEEEE absorb buff.
4. HOLY SHIT DISEASE proc!!!
5. self HASTE BUFF
6. Instant snare 1500 range
7. instant dot 1500 range to rupt.

Paladin
1. STRONG ENDU!!!!!!!!!!!
2. useless resist.
3. TAUNT shot YEAH!!!
4. useless heal song.
5. dmg add.
6. a bit better Spec af Aura..

And you want say me that the that the utility are good?

its one of the worst lines (yes smite is more worst!). but you need to spec it for endu..

Fri 28 May 2021 4:28 PM by Egonek

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 27 May 2021 7:27 AM
was really wondering why any pala should spec 50 2h too
and why 39 slash? compo is enough! you get the snares in 2h spec, yes i know slow weapon is not optimal for snaring but you gotta sacrifice somewhere....

lol?
I think you are one from the 2H pro peeler...

For example.. IF a zeker stick a caster from your grp.

1. You set guard on the caster
2. You try to peel the zeker with 1h and guard the caster.
3. Because THAT you spec 39 slash! for the back peel WHO cost 15 ENDU!!! because that you need SPEC 42 songs for red endu... otherwice you are in 10s OOE not like the warrior
4. YES as paladin and Armsman you need to sacrifice somethink. as Warrior NOT! nothink.

Fri 28 May 2021 4:55 PM by skipari

Egonek wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 4:20 PM
I think you dont understand.

A PALADIN have to SPEC songs for ENDU!!!!!

All tanks in Midgard get it for free from sham... and you has ALWAYS a sham in grp....

A sham has an awful endu range, not even to mention that the sham is an additional char. Also if a sham dies he has to rebuff the whole shit again, a pala can just start his chants again and everyone in 2k range has red endu again.

Egonek wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 4:20 PM
Paladin
1. STRONG ENDU!!!!!!!!!!!
2. useless resist.
3. TAUNT shot YEAH!!!
4. useless heal song.
5. dmg add.
6. a bit better Spec af Aura..

And you want say me that the that the utility are good?

its one of the worst lines (yes smite is more worst!). but you need to spec it for endu..

The combo resists aren't useless, they stack with buffed resists. It is basically AOM5 for free, for the full group. More or less the same with the SpecAF Chant, it doesn't stack, but it has also far higher value then the buffed ones from cleric and provides another ~10% more melee damage reduction.

You also forgot to mention that the pala has every 60s a 24% instant groupheal in a 8men.

All in all, if i could switch my warrior for a paladin in a mid melee group, i would not even think a second about it and use the paladin instead. Main reason why nobody really uses them is endu3 pots for everyone and the friar reduction.

Fri 28 May 2021 7:50 PM by nono31

This replys show something important

Alb players are the best for crying

Just sacrifice your plate armor ? paladin songs ?

Fri 28 May 2021 7:52 PM by nono31

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 4:03 PM
nono31 wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 3:42 PM
Scouts stun and perma root with shield, they dont need To go melee...

You obviously dont play the game if you stay this lol.

Mate , if you don't know /want to quite , just play an other toon .

Fri 28 May 2021 9:24 PM by drhmphoenix

I like the idea of changes and looking forward to something fresh.

Reading this thread, it seems like a lot of lines have iconic flavor already, moreso than I even realized. Armsman snare, slash/thrust stuff people have mentioned for Minstrels, champ styles off opponent and annihilation, dual shadows on merc, doublefrost, etc... I think it would be cool on the second pass to make sure those things can still exist for those classes. It takes care of the flavor (less work) you're looking for while also mixing in some change.

Also feel like there's a lot of similarity across realms, for example on light tanks the dual wielding lines look an awful lot alike. Maybe that's intentional but a little boring. Differences make DAOC great imo, but of course any differences make balance (and complaints) harder for you guys making the changes.

Fri 28 May 2021 9:57 PM by Nephamael

Found some things you might wanna have another look at - looking forward to giving another feedback after the next adjustments!

Alb

Flex/Reaver
reaver flex sidesnare 1 style +15 to hit bonus 23s!!!!! snare seems very excessive if you compare it to any other snares

counteroffer: 15s?!

the backsnare of flex is also very long at 19s and both styles have high dmg (200 per level back, 300 per level side) - flex usually swings at swing cap, so i'd suggest 12-15s for the backsnare (reaver should probably not peel better than arms and merc, right?)

Polearm

Sidesnare Poleaxe at 15s is 2 short, i suggest 19s

3 sidechains seem no use, i suggest removing defenders cross and disabler chain and make them a after enemy styles or after block or after evade chain.

Crippling blow and Mangle need higher dmg, i suggest 200 and 300 per level - Crippling Blow needs a longer snare, i suggest 15s

I suggest letting the old class theme anytime snare return as a 4s duration snare.

2Handed

The backsnare at 23s is 2 long, i suggest 15s.
The sidesnare at 14s is 2 short, i suggest 19s.

The 2nd frontal chain seems useless (bone splitter, bone breaker) - i suggest making it a after block, after evade or after enemy styles or after enemy blocks/parries chain.

Slash

19s backsnare seems pretty long, maybe it should be more like 15s

Enrage + Saphire Slash anytime chain does less dmg than Amethyst Slash (39), even tho saphire slash is lvl44

Uppercut, Opal Slash and Cleave are all completely useless, i suggest transfering those into reactionaries.

The lvl50 backstyle followup Diamond Slash should have higher dmg, probably at least 300 per level.

Crush

19s sidesnare seems 2 long for a cap swing speed 1h peel, i suggest 15s

Devastate (50) (2nd part sidechain) should have higher dmg, probably at least 300 per level

Thrust

Lunge (2nd part after block) needs higher dmg, at least 300 per level

Liontooth (34) anytimer has 300 dmg per level, most other anytimers are adjusted to max 200, i recommend putting it to 200 or fitting it into a chain
(if a 1 style anytimer does more dmg than reactionaries or positionals it makes the other styles useless for dps!)

Tranquilize (18) Wyvernfang (44) anytime chain needs higher dmg - i suggest 400 or 500 for wyvernfang, as Tranquilize is a detaunt with +0 to hit and no dmg

As thrust has no sidesnare maybe the backsnare should be longer at 16 or 17 seconds? Or it could have a sidesnare and the asr debuff on a followup
(else slash and crush are the new viable and thrust a pure solo spec, all thrust specced people will cry all day if they want to 8v8, lots of templates would have to be
redone... not cool )

There are lots of useless anytimers (Sever, Puncture, Bloody Dance), that can go into reactionaries and one can build a 2nd style of the side opener.

Dual Wield

Merc needs a backsnare to stay viable in 8v8.

Reflection could have a asr debuff for Infi.

Hib

Blade

19s backsnare is 2 long, i suggest 14 or 15s

Sidesnare could go from 14s to 15s

Prismatic Blade (44) anytimer has 300 dmg per level, while most other anytimers are adjusted to 200 - i suggest putting it to 200 or putting it into a chain (Followup to taunting blade? and giving it a bleed?!).

Bard could use a after enemy evade/parry/block/styles or something creative as after your own DD instead of 3 different after evade styles (Bard has evade 2 ^^ - that does not hapen all too often).

Blunt
blunt 2 style sidesnare at 19s duration should probably be upped (especially considering the opener has only +5 to hit and the 2nd style +10)

counteroffer 23s? (even with 27s it would probably still be unused as its a 2 part chain)

Force of might should be included into a chain, else it remains a completely useless style - it could be an opener for Mauler.

Mauler alone has the same problem as the other 300 dmg anytimers, having higher dmg than positionals renders the other styles useless (for dps)!

The after enemy evade chain is awesome! More of that to more style lines in all realms!!!

Piercing

Asps Bite poses the same problem as the other 300 dmg per level anytimers, so dmg needs to be adjusted so positionals/reactionaries do more than a anytimer.

Wyverns Bite should probably have higher dmg, as it is a lvl50 style.

The backsnare at 12s should probably go up to 15s, it only has +5 to hit as well and should probably have at least 200 dmg per level.

Celtic spear (hero)

The few solo celtic spear heroes rly love that after parry stun to get purge out of the way.

Could we get a 2nd after parry chain with a stun opener and a bleed or attack speed debuff followup? = 2 viable after parry chains
Or maybe you can put the stun opener on the 1st instead of the 2nd after evade style, changing the effects of Entrap and Hunters Largess (but evade is not so reliable for a hero, so i think it should better be a 2nd after parry chain).

As much as i would love to see my hero be the new warrior i have to admit, 23s sidesnare is 2 long and needs to go down to 19 or 20s, the dmg is high enough for the 44 style!

Eagle talon (34) anytimer used to be a class theme, now it seems very useless, it could become the after parry stun, if the taunt gets +10/+0 and the same dmg as eagle talon (200 per level)

Hunter's Gift (2nd sidestyle) should go to 400 dmg per level to have 2 viable sidechains (else 1 will be unused).

Large Weapons

The sidesnare should probably be longer, at 15s+.

Hibernian Force/ Obliteration (Frontal 10/18) could have their effects exchanged or the asr debuff increased to make it a viable alternative to the 39 chain. (noone specs lower than 39 LW so both chains need to be equally viable)

Celtic Dual (BM/NS)

Backsnare has a 4s duration, i guess that was a typo and is meant to be 14s?

solar flare sidesnare has a 23s duration, that's 2 long, i suggest 15s

Ranger should probably have the backsnare reduced from 19s to 15s.

VW Scythe

Winters Scythe needs an effect like asr debuff or bleed

Do you really want to give vw the frontal aoesnare style? How about single target or making the aoe last 5s instead of 10s?

Mid

Hand 2 Hand (svg)
tribal rage and tribal assault (after parry svg h2h) should probably get higher to hit bonus, at least +10 for both

Left Axe

solar flare backsnare also sais 4s duration? what about 14s?

ravager and atrophy anytimer need a higher to hit bonus and more dmg on ravager, i suggest 200 dmg per level for ravager and +10 to hit for both styles

doubler and scathing blade (frontal chain) could have their effects exchanged and the asr debuff increased to 21+%?!

Hammer

Conquer needs to keep a backsnare for zerkers and svg, else it will be rendered a useless spec for those who have it for the snare reason.

Axe

19s sidesnare seems pretty long, how about 17s?
Raider (after evade) needs +10 or more to hit bonus

Sword

Very interesting concept, will a 23s backsnare with uber dmg but no sidesnare make warriors play sword?! We shall see!

Assault (10) 2nd after block needs dmg (300) and a effect to be viable, bleed?!
Baldurs Fury to 300 dmg per level

Valkyries Shield/Midnight Sun after block combo needs +to hit bonus on Valkyries Shield or much higher dmg on Midnight sun (400 or 500).

----------------------------
Overall i am still positively looking forward to the style changes and hope some bigger problems can be removed asap.

But i have to say, the proposed changes to critical strike look very horrifying to me.

Nightshade / Infiltrator / Shadowblade = Critical Strike

After Evade needs to have at least 2 viable chains with 2 styles each.

I think the best bet for the PA chain is keeping it as it is right now: PA, CD, SS = a 3 style chain you land on most targets. Even if purged the styles high dmg and bleed on SS are still worth landing them most times. - A new chain with 2 optional followups could have the same third style for both followups, if you want to move forward addressing the assassin vs slamtank matchup (the only one we open with backstab).

Garotte Achilles Heel is a class theme, i would prefer to keep it as it is - at least the followup needs to be at max 39 cs spec, so low RR nightshades with their low specpoints can reach it.

My go at the after evade chains and CS rework:

Out of Stealth Front:
PA, CD, SS (as before) (3 chain)
PA, new alternative lvl34 style with a bleed instead of a stun, SS (3 chain)

Out of Stealth Back:
Backstab II, Thigh Cut
(the low lvl chain is mostly unused, only a few LA SBs at low RR use it, maybe keep the opener Backstab I and remove the 2 followups)

Anytime:
Garotte, AH (as before)

After Evade:
Hamstering (asr debuff), Leaper (bleed or stun) (2chain)
Rib Separation (bleed), Ripper (high dmg and bleed or stun, if leaper has stun = Ripper has no stun or vice versa) (2chain)

As not everyone can get to 50 CS i suggest keeping Rib Separation high enough dmg to make it worth using (without followup) after one landed the Hamstering Leaper combo once. - Or moving the followup to 44 cs.

I don't oppose adding side/back positionals, even tho i already fear the stun straving show.

Whatever you do, i beg you to add at least 1 more 2 style after evade chain, so CS does not become a super boring spec.

Fri 28 May 2021 11:15 PM by Hattrick

Hammer

Conquer needs to keep a backsnare for zerkers and svg, else it will be rendered a useless spec for those who have it for the snare reason.

In other words, everybody

To add to what you said in a serious way though, Dragonfang needs its duration moved back to 9 seconds. I also think it should go back to just being off evade for the classes capable of evading and off block for pallies and armsmen. However, it seems to be an overarching goal of this update to get rid of long duration stuns except for chains. If that's the case, so be it, but it shouldn't lose duration.

The stun in the Diamondback chain didn't lose duration, it gained 3 seconds of duration. So yeah, both Dragonspider and Dragonfang are 8 seconds now, but Dragonfang is a level 50 style and Dragonspider is only 44. The level 50 style should be better than the level 44 style as it takes a huge spec point investment to get. You have to give a lot of other stuff up to get that style so please don't double nerf it.

Sat 29 May 2021 5:00 AM by

gruenesschaf

Page where it should be easier to see the styles and their effects: https://playphoenix.online/charplan/style_overview.html
This should include most of the mentioned updates except for the haste debuff reshuffling.

We'll think about some more things to gather feedback on a class by class basis. For example we don't exactly care how thane hammer compares to warrior hammer but we very much care how warrior sword and warrior hammer compares.
Further, unless other circumstances make a comparison unreasonable there will be an eye on the differences between realm mirror classes like infi/sb/ns and to a slightly lesser extent zerk/bm/merc. Other comparisons might fall a bit flat though, e. g. arms vs hero works but including the warrior is a bit more difficult given the mid 1h/2h mechanic.

Sat 29 May 2021 5:46 AM by Magesty

Do you have any specific gameplay goals with the style changes?

It seems that this is moving in the direction of reducing the power of the traditional DW/heavy fighters in favor of buffing up hybrids (and even assassins to a lesser extent). It also appears there is a conscious attempt to increase the amount of side arc abuse.

Is this an intended outcome, or is this starting point not the best indication of how this will look in the future?

Sat 29 May 2021 6:10 AM by evert

Lol I’m done. Why anyone would bother making any suggestions, or thinking you will adjust things based on suggestions, is beyond me.

Sat 29 May 2021 6:19 AM by

gruenesschaf

Magesty wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 5:46 AM
Do you have any specific gameplay goals with the style changes?

It seems that this is moving in the direction of reducing the power of the traditional DW/heavy fighters in favor of buffing up hybrids (and even assassins to a lesser extent). It also appears there is a conscious attempt to increase the amount of side arc abuse.

Is this an intended outcome, or is this starting point not the best indication of how this will look in the future?

Aside from covering the mandatory goals, the purpose of the style change is that every class ends up with sensible lines in the end. While there is a thought to reduce the stickyness of certain tanks, that's kind of a more finer tuning phase which would happen nowish.
Up until now the focus really was just on the mandatory goals, getting a workflow going that allows easy edits to many styles at the same time and fixing some oversights / import issues.

Now that it should look mostly usable for most classes, we'll try to gather feedback on a class by class basis to fix more potential issues / make the available lines competitive so that each class actually has a choice (ideally not only a cosmetic one but even that would be preferable over not having any choice at all).
The result of that would be a usable baseline which would go live.

The next steps then would be to run some experiments to figure out how it plays / what works / what we want from each class. One experiment there includes a reduction of the side arc and removing the both targets moving range bonus leaving only the both standing still and either moving ranges.

Sat 29 May 2021 6:23 AM by

gruenesschaf

evert wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 6:10 AM
Lol I’m done. Why anyone would bother making any suggestions, or thinking you will adjust things based on suggestions, is beyond me.

If you ignore all changes made based on the suggestions so far that's a reasonable conclusion.

Sat 29 May 2021 7:27 AM by Saroi

gruenesschaf wrote: Page where it should be easier to see the styles and their effects: https://playphoenix.online/charplan/style_overview.html
This should include most of the mentioned updates except for the haste debuff reshuffling.

After going through the new styles there, Thane DD procs feel a bit too strong in my opinion. They should be lowered to half atleast, they will already hit hard since you buffed the energy resist debuff. The way it looks now it feels like they will hit for 2h damage.

Another point I am asking myself, why does Thane have higher damage than others on some styles? Anytimers have like 50 more damage than the others. For example comminute 32 hammers shows by 194, and for all others it is 146. Warrior/Hunter Ragnarok are lower than others. Is it because of the snare on Ragnarok?

I personally do not understand this, especially in form of anytimers. Warrior should be the class with the highest one, simple because he is the strongest melee.

Sat 29 May 2021 7:30 AM by Noashakra

Still don't understand why thrust ministrel has 2 hast debuffs, side and on the detaunt chain and only the back peel. This will make 100% of the ministels slash spec.

You still didn't give back the 2s/6s/9s stun for the inf, I don't understand why you did this. It was the signature of the infiltrator.

What's the point of having 2x 4s stuns (on in a two styles).You made the slash and thrust line useless for infiltrators.

In CS line, you changed some styles to be 2 different followup, but there is not point to use both, one is clearly better than the others.

The VW is still a monster.

It make no sense to me. You broke some things that didn't need to be broken. I don't understand the logic.

Sat 29 May 2021 7:36 AM by Astaa

Can you sticky any changes to the start of the thread please?

Sat 29 May 2021 8:00 AM by ExcretusMaximus

evert wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 6:10 AM
Lol I’m done. Why anyone would bother making any suggestions, or thinking you will adjust things based on suggestions, is beyond me.

Translation: "They didn't do what I demanded, therefore they suck and hate the player base as a whole."

Sat 29 May 2021 8:02 AM by Kaldoris

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 6:23 AM
evert wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 6:10 AM
Lol I’m done. Why anyone would bother making any suggestions, or thinking you will adjust things based on suggestions, is beyond me.

If you ignore all changes made based on the suggestions so far that's a reasonable conclusion.

Why so much hate everytime to try to malke things move a bit.... I'm so much casual, and in 3 mins already found changes made since first post, matching other players suggestions...

Just know that there are still some players looking forward for those changes

Sat 29 May 2021 8:08 AM by Noashakra

Kaldoris wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 8:02 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 6:23 AM
evert wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 6:10 AM
Lol I’m done. Why anyone would bother making any suggestions, or thinking you will adjust things based on suggestions, is beyond me.

If you ignore all changes made based on the suggestions so far that's a reasonable conclusion.

Why so much hate everytime to try to malke things move a bit.... I'm so much casual, and in 3 mins already found changes made since first post, matching other players suggestions...

Just know that there are still some players looking forward for those changes

Because it's the same story again. Same thing during the last change. Everyone said the VW was too OP, and now it's the same (back stun back snare OP 2 chains with proc from back and side). It's so obvious, how can it get a green light, it's baffling to me.

Sat 29 May 2021 8:47 AM by

gruenesschaf

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 8:08 AM
Because it's the same story again. Same thing during the last change. Everyone said the VW was too OP, and now it's the same (back stun back snare OP 2 chains with proc from back and side). It's so obvious, how can it get a green light, it's baffling to me.

None of the dd procs are on opener, scythe as 2h weapon has a certain minimum delay. Compare what that means to levi and you should realize that, at least the dd procs, are apparently not that impactful as you might think.

Simply due to the swing delay you're looking at 25 - 50% slower swings and on top of that it's on the second hit.
Say you're on a stunned target for about 6s:
Reaver 1.5s swing delay -> Levi, Levi, Levi, Levi, Levi = 5x 153 delve dd ~= 750 delve dd
VW 2.25s swing delay -> Opener, Follow, Opener, Follow = 2x 198 delve dd ~= 400 delve dd

Sat 29 May 2021 9:02 AM by Noashakra

With a 3.5 and your self haste 34%, you cap weapon speed
IF you go with a 5.5 weapon, (vs 3.0 for the reaver) you achieve 2.26 without RA full buffs with 70 quick for a celt for 238 quickness full buffed.

It's the whole kit that is OP, it has everything.

Sat 29 May 2021 9:08 AM by

gruenesschaf

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 9:02 AM
With a 3.5 and your self haste 34%, you cap weapon speed
IF you go with a 5.5 weapon, you achieve 2.26 without RA full buffs with 70 quick for a celt (vs 3.0 for the reaver).

It's the whole kit that is OP, it has everything.

The reaver only has a 9s slam and the self haste won't be active for the whole time. Regardless, vw will still end up dealing less damage with the style procs, given that it's on the follow ups only it's effectively half the listed delve, in practice even less due to miss.
Given that the levi based reaver existed since pretty much forever and the vw procs result in noticeably less effective dd damage I don't really see it as an issue, certainly not on a scale like you apparently see it.

As for the OP kit, you mean like the reaver then which also has everything? Every class with access to shield spec will pretty much have "everything" as part of the style overhaul is to have all lines usable which by definition means all lines must have a positional snare at least, add shield spec to that and you have a 9s stun.

Sat 29 May 2021 9:17 AM by evert

Good to know that reaver is the baseline for melee hybrids. Finishing blow will be a 198dd on skald too, right? That seems about right given we don’t even have a direct stun.

Sat 29 May 2021 9:20 AM by Noashakra

You don't take the context of 8vs8.
It's obvious to a lot of people that the VW is too OP. It was already the core of hib tanker. You just increase its DPS.
I don't undertand why everyone should have a snare. The VW had a magic snare to compensate.
Before you could kite a VW without its assist, now it's a lot harder.

Sat 29 May 2021 9:20 AM by ExcretusMaximus

evert wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 9:17 AM
Good to know that reaver is the baseline for melee hybrids. Finishing blow will be a 198dd on skald too, right? That seems about right given we don’t even have a direct stun.

Are you really so dense as to not realize he's comparing style procs to style procs, not hybrid class to hybrid class? Or is it just a disingenuous argument because you didn't get what you wanted?

Sat 29 May 2021 9:20 AM by

gruenesschaf

evert wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 9:17 AM
Good to know that reaver is the baseline for melee hybrids. Finishing blow will be a 198dd on skald too, right? That seems about right given we don’t even have a direct stun.

Yeah when comparing 2 melee hybrids that are and have always been somewhat proc based it's pretty wild to take the other one for comparison.

Sat 29 May 2021 9:24 AM by evert

I assume other melee classes are getting something to compensate for the 1/3rd increase in vw dps. I know you wanted to give other hybrids procs too so I’m excited to see what cool stuff I get, never mind balance.

Sat 29 May 2021 10:20 AM by Jodocus_Quak

The core idea of the style changes, that every class/realm should have the same or similar styles, is the opposite of what is so great about DAoC: The asymmetry of classes, abilities, weaponlines etc. I think its great for Midgard that only hammer has a Backsnare, but does a bit less dmg. I find it great that axe has ASR on an anytimer and other lines dont have that. I find it great tha LA has Auroa Borealis with a unique DD. I find it great that axe and LA only have the after evade stun in a follow up style compared to the other realms.

What you guys are doing is leveling the differences and thus voiding the core idea of what is so great about DAoC.

Another thing to contemplate: Mythic had an entire team of devs and months of testing to come up with the styles and balance them for RvR. I think they did a great job: RvR is still somewhat balanced having in mind the asymmetry as a core design idea. I find quite interesting that one (!) German guy thinks he can do a better job, has a better understanding than the actual devs had.

Styles are at the core of RvR. They influence everything: Balance, specs, templates etc. Completely changing the styles is not a minor tweak. I think that the one German dev did a good job with many minor tweaks, but with this goal of completely changing the styles, he can easily break the server; and once ppl are gone, they wont come back easily.

Sat 29 May 2021 10:21 AM by Tashkent

hunter:

please change lancer/lunging thrust to a front chain with dehaste on 1st/bleed on 2nd to be more in line with the counterparts.
make razors edge a snare (like ragnarok/revenging blade/black widow/back slash/pierce) like the back snares of the counterparts, hunter is at a disadvantage.
make perforate a short duration side stun like the counterparts. re-stunning after purge/immunities wins the fights, hunter is at a disadvantage with a backstun vs slam/sidestuns.

Jodocus_Quak wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 10:20 AM
What you guys are doing is leveling the differences and thus voiding the core idea of what is so great about DAoC.

different styles is not the core idea of what is so great about daoc, it's rather 3 faction rvr.

Sat 29 May 2021 10:56 AM by Noashakra

Tashkent wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 10:21 AM
different styles is not the core idea of what is so great about daoc, it's rather 3 faction rvr.

Go play wow with mirror classes.
There are no point in having 3 realms if they are the same.
The big plus of dark age, it's that each realm has its own flavor.

Sat 29 May 2021 11:00 AM by linktheverb

What's up with the anytime stealth style Wildblade in hunter shadowblade sword? Why is that there?

Sat 29 May 2021 11:44 AM by DJ2000

I already saw that you did reshuffle them, so I'm thankful for that, but may i suggest some further changes to the taunt/detaunt styles and weapon lines in general?

Most Weapon lines (not all) have the same level/progression pattern, being:
1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 18, 21, 25, 29, 34, 39, 44, 50. = 16 Styles in total.
Take out the taunt/detaunt, and you have room for 14 Styles per line.
Take out the starting styles, and you end up at only 12 Styles-slots that you have available.

Now take into account that every line is supposed to have a BASE of Reactionaries, Positionals and Anytimers; and most of the time each of those being a 2-chain.
1x (or 2x) Anytimer, 2x Side, 2x Front and 2x Back = 7 (8) Styles gone out of the 12 available.
That leaves us with another 4 or 5 available to fill out with reactionaries, If the class has access to them, which leaves barely any room (or none at all) to add anything else.
Those also being 2-chain for the most part basically means most, if not all, Weapon lines will/do look the same.

That is especially true for Heavy/Light tanks as they (need to) have access to (usually) all forms of reactionary/positional.
Reactionaries having priority to be a 2-chain means, that sometimes a positional or an anytimer will maybe just a 1-part; with some Weapon lines even having some kind of heavy emphasis on a certain aspect (Positional, Reactionary), that makes it even harder.
Sometimes there are variations with an opener having 2 followups to circumvent some stuff, but space is limited unless you want to put additional styles into the line (example: Warden).

I really don't want to turn this into some wall of text and include all sorts of numbers/styles/effects and such...my suggestion is this:
Get rid of the starting styles and make Taunt/detaunt always, in every line, the styles 1 and 2. To simply have 2 more spaces for more wiggle-room to fit in the BASE stuff and maybe even have some room to add more interesting stuff (flavor) in the line as well (ex.: after-enemy-Block/parry/evade/style/etc.).

Sat 29 May 2021 12:41 PM by Zolda

i feel you did here the inverse of what you want really optain

you want nerf the back peel on light tank to give back more sense to the others classes but this change make the end of all others melee classes,

the most clearly it's on mid, put the back peel in left axe, add 10% bonus hit and 15% bonus def, able the zerk to win +37% dps vs scale hib and +28% dps vs chain alb when he spam the back peel, in comparaison the advantage of savage gr seems disapear. Add dps why not, if you want, but here it's more problematic for the stun, adding too much stun capacity on zerk where its was the only thing missing and forced to play with another class for slam, generaly a warrior, will make all others mid melee useless (and what about this bonus style on the side stun ? :p)

on hib i cant understand what the sense of removing supernova 34% debuff hast for a direct style 23s peel ? its not here suppose to be the role of a hero ?

on alb too, remove the possibility to front peel with armsman its rough, he dont deserve it they will loose another advantage compare to merc

the new (useless) stun in celtic dual and dual wield, are just here to justifie your choice to buff zerk (and up 5 sec from 4 sec side stun is a nerf for bm), but its a huge loss to remove the debuff 34% hast on them, specially on merc who lost this debuff hast to put a completly useless stun 5 sec side on the lvl 39 style

you decide also to remove a lot of 2 sec stun, but they are more used and more useful than you expect, and some stun on block/parry/evade are delete too, specialy on light tank, where you can benifit a better bonus to hit than slam & numb, that reduce a bit the gameplay (but honestly all this last things are no really important)

to want linearise all look boring to me, but its a personnal opinion, you decide to make same bonus on all taunt, but when you have different taunt on the same class, that become a choice from the player to use one of them

still completly personnal, but i am agree with the nerf of back peel, remove all of them could be interessing too! but for me there are too much change here that will trouble for sure many different gameplay style from some players

Sat 29 May 2021 1:26 PM by Hattrick

What are you guys thinking with the paladin thrust line? You have 3 off block chains and none off parry. Even the armsman thrust spec has one of those off block chains that is off parry instead. I've already made my thoughts clear about the senseless double nerf to Dragonfang so I won't get into that again here, other than to say I see you haven't made any changes to it.

If the goal was to make all the weapon lines roughly the same viability, you failed hard with thrust spec for Alb tanks. I doubt any paladins will choose thrust over the other choices and I don't think many armsmen will either.

edit: and what the hell is up with Amethyst Slash? It's listed as the highest damage style in all 3 lines (with the exception of Pierce for mercs) and it's an anytimer? That doesn't seem right.

Sat 29 May 2021 1:56 PM by Kaldoris

Just to say, reaver got levi as second in chain, oh no you're taking out the core of the class. Reaver gets levi levi levi spam back. I'm OK with it.

But why so much hate on VW ? It's one on the least played class. The only post in forum about it are: I'm 50 no-one wants me what do I do : answer get friends or reroll... let it have some love, at least a little :p

Sat 29 May 2021 2:26 PM by Tyrlaan

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 9:08 AM
As for the OP kit, you mean like the reaver then which also has everything? Every class with access to shield spec will pretty much have "everything" as part of the style overhaul is to have all lines usable which by definition means all lines must have a positional snare at least, add shield spec to that and you have a 9s stun.

TBH this is really going overboard with the hybrid/tank balance.

With all the extra damage added to hybrids by DD procs (which - like those stacking DoTs - are much more powerful than on live due to no MagicHBs, no CL self resist buffs, no other abilities to bypass melee resists and defenses like elemental weapons and many more reasons) they shouldn´t get the snares. Not even positional.

If every tank/hybrid can peel ( "must have a positional snare at least" ) and hybrids can also nuke or DD proc dps you into the ground too, why even play a melee who will spend most time snared (i.e. not dealing damage) and not even dealing as much damage as hybrids when actually getting into melee range? If the hybrids are to deal so much damage with their styles, they should be the ones prone to be kept away from the enemy by being peeled (e.g. by real tanks).

Tanks are already at the bottom of /serverinfo unlike hybrids who all have at least a niche in solo/smallman with some quite useful running with the BG for their RAs (TWF, ST) or AE hammers.

Also the snares you´re handing out like candy are still 60% where live has them at 40% (but also Grapple, Bodyguard, Charge, snare reactives ...)

Sat 29 May 2021 2:30 PM by BPICKEREL

Jodocus_Quak wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 10:20 AM
The core idea of the style changes, that every class/realm should have the same or similar styles, is the opposite of what is so great about DAoC: The asymmetry of classes, abilities, weaponlines etc. I think its great for Midgard that only hammer has a Backsnare, but does a bit less dmg. I find it great that axe has ASR on an anytimer and other lines dont have that. I find it great tha LA has Auroa Borealis with a unique DD. I find it great that axe and LA only have the after evade stun in a follow up style compared to the other realms.

What you guys are doing is leveling the differences and thus voiding the core idea of what is so great about DAoC.

Another thing to contemplate: Mythic had an entire team of devs and months of testing to come up with the styles and balance them for RvR. I think they did a great job: RvR is still somewhat balanced having in mind the asymmetry as a core design idea. I find quite interesting that one (!) German guy thinks he can do a better job, has a better understanding than the actual devs had.

Styles are at the core of RvR. They influence everything: Balance, specs, templates etc. Completely changing the styles is not a minor tweak. I think that the one German dev did a good job with many minor tweaks, but with this goal of completely changing the styles, he can easily break the server; and once ppl are gone, they wont come back easily.

This. We do not need or want all classes to be the same, that’s what makes the game great. Each class is unique and has advantages and disadvantages. Please put the proposed changes out to a vote before implementing or population could suffer. I’m not spending hours redoing my characters.

Sat 29 May 2021 2:59 PM by Noashakra

Kaldoris wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 1:56 PM
Just to say, reaver got levi as second in chain, oh no you're taking out the core of the class. Reaver gets levi levi levi spam back. I'm OK with it.

But why so much hate on VW ? It's one on the least played class. The only post in forum about it are: I'm 50 no-one wants me what do I do : answer get friends or reroll... let it have some love, at least a little :p

I have a VW 6L+ full stuff weaponless, don't assume things...
I am objective about the class. in 8vs8, hib tanker is in a good place. Now it'll be crazy strong.

Sat 29 May 2021 3:08 PM by lurker

Eugh. This is all madness to be honest.

Minor tweaks to make some style lines viable - fine we were all on board for that.

Minor tweaks to make the style positional icons match up in game - fine, I don't think anybody cared that much, but fine.

But what's proposed here is so far beyond that and so totally not classic.

I already k ow a few people who have stopped playing until this is finalised. They may well not be back.

Just feels like another step on the road to a live-like and distancing phoneox further from it's classic roots.

I certainly won't be playing again of I have to race respec some classes, redoo templates etc. That was literally one of the key promises of this server - nothings gonna change that drastically to force people to do that. I don't have the plats or time to farm them to bother.

I just want to play after weeks of events and changes and now this.wewere all having fun previously this wasn't needed.

/Rant off.

Sat 29 May 2021 3:18 PM by Leafus

I agree.

I’ll never forget Mythics infamous quote: you will never not be in control of your toon. Lol ok how about standing around?

What I am seeing are stuns after stuns and what will happen is melee in the middle all stunning each other standing around mezzed rooted or stunned and the team with the most nukers in the back burning down the center wins.

We really want people standing around stunned or mezzed an entire fight? That’s fun? Both sides just motionless on a screen? Too many stuns for too long. Let’s have action as a source of fun. Fights and swinging swords and axes and hammers. Nukers nuking.

Sat 29 May 2021 4:05 PM by easytoremember

There's a lot of very recognizable, signatory styles here and there that should be left intact between lv, name, and requirement imo. You already seem to be keeping them (levi, garrote, decaying rage) and then there are others that've been Live'd (crippling blow, dragonfang) where they were very line-defining.

Leafus wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 3:18 PM
I’ll never forget Mythics infamous quote: you will never not be in control of your toon.

zephyr

Sat 29 May 2021 4:14 PM by evert

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 9:20 AM
evert wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 9:17 AM
Good to know that reaver is the baseline for melee hybrids. Finishing blow will be a 198dd on skald too, right? That seems about right given we don’t even have a direct stun.

Yeah when comparing 2 melee hybrids that are and have always been somewhat proc based it's pretty wild to take the other one for comparison.

I would say they are known for their procs and the corresponding lack of utility in their styles. But sure give reaver a longer snare than skald, and keep levi, and an anytime dd proc. And vws clearly need both more damage AND more utility.

Sat 29 May 2021 4:48 PM by Tyrlaan

evert wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 4:14 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 9:20 AM
evert wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 9:17 AM
Good to know that reaver is the baseline for melee hybrids. Finishing blow will be a 198dd on skald too, right? That seems about right given we don’t even have a direct stun.

Yeah when comparing 2 melee hybrids that are and have always been somewhat proc based it's pretty wild to take the other one for comparison.

I would say they are known for their procs and the corresponding lack of utility in their styles. But sure give reaver a longer snare than skald, and keep levi, and an anytime dd proc. And vws clearly need both more damage AND more utility.

That. It´s either more DD procs or peels/stuns. If Reavers can backup everything with a DD proc anytimer, they shouldn´t get any peels.

VWs are a beast now, not only their side dps increased further (by reducing the chain by 1 style) even though they were not really known for lack of proc dps but also the same high (AE) DD procs added to back and front positional styles with stuns and AE snare leading into them. On a class that can nuke when rooted, has instant snare/rupt and AE root (Ichor). So they pretty much have all the CC and damage they want wrapped into the same chains which they gonna spam (while fishing for the side stun opener). And as if this wasn´t enough, they gained a back snare too.

I wonder what they wanna give to (light) tanks so that they still can hold their own with this madness. Yes Reavers had Levi and VWs had Blizzard Blade but it looks like these token high dps positionals are somewhat the new benchmark for every other offensive hybrid style chain now?

Sat 29 May 2021 4:52 PM by gotwqqd

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 6:19 AM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 5:46 AM
Do you have any specific gameplay goals with the style changes?

It seems that this is moving in the direction of reducing the power of the traditional DW/heavy fighters in favor of buffing up hybrids (and even assassins to a lesser extent). It also appears there is a conscious attempt to increase the amount of side arc abuse.

Is this an intended outcome, or is this starting point not the best indication of how this will look in the future?

Aside from covering the mandatory goals, the purpose of the style change is that every class ends up with sensible lines in the end. While there is a thought to reduce the stickyness of certain tanks, that's kind of a more finer tuning phase which would happen nowish.
Up until now the focus really was just on the mandatory goals, getting a workflow going that allows easy edits to many styles at the same time and fixing some oversights / import issues.

Now that it should look mostly usable for most classes, we'll try to gather feedback on a class by class basis to fix more potential issues / make the available lines competitive so that each class actually has a choice (ideally not only a cosmetic one but even that would be preferable over not having any choice at all).
The result of that would be a usable baseline which would go live.

The next steps then would be to run some experiments to figure out how it plays / what works / what we want from each class. One experiment there includes a reduction of the side arc and removing the both targets moving range bonus leaving only the both standing still and either moving ranges.

Reducing side arc just gives the twitchers an even greater edge….unless of course if it prevents getting it off from inside and front of avatar

Sat 29 May 2021 4:58 PM by gotwqqd

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 9:08 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 9:02 AM
With a 3.5 and your self haste 34%, you cap weapon speed
IF you go with a 5.5 weapon, you achieve 2.26 without RA full buffs with 70 quick for a celt (vs 3.0 for the reaver).

It's the whole kit that is OP, it has everything.

The reaver only has a 9s slam and the self haste won't be active for the whole time. Regardless, vw will still end up dealing less damage with the style procs, given that it's on the follow ups only it's effectively half the listed delve, in practice even less due to miss.
Given that the levi based reaver existed since pretty much forever and the vw procs result in noticeably less effective dd damage I don't really see it as an issue, certainly not on a scale like you apparently see it.

As for the OP kit, you mean like the reaver then which also has everything? Every class with access to shield spec will pretty much have "everything" as part of the style overhaul is to have all lines usable which by definition means all lines must have a positional snare at least, add shield spec to that and you have a 9s stun.

What about the fact that VW has a ranged DD and snare
Not to mention other utility that outshines the reavers

Sat 29 May 2021 5:03 PM by gotwqqd

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 2:26 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 9:08 AM
As for the OP kit, you mean like the reaver then which also has everything? Every class with access to shield spec will pretty much have "everything" as part of the style overhaul is to have all lines usable which by definition means all lines must have a positional snare at least, add shield spec to that and you have a 9s stun.

TBH this is really going overboard with the hybrid/tank balance.

With all the extra damage added to hybrids by DD procs (which - like those stacking DoTs - are much more powerful than on live due to no MagicHBs, no CL self resist buffs, no other abilities to bypass melee resists and defenses like elemental weapons and many more reasons) they shouldn´t get the snares. Not even positional.

If every tank/hybrid can peel ( "must have a positional snare at least" ) and hybrids can also nuke or DD proc dps you into the ground too, why even play a melee who will spend most time snared (i.e. not dealing damage) and not even dealing as much damage as hybrids when actually getting into melee range? If the hybrids are to deal so much damage with their styles, they should be the ones prone to be kept away from the enemy by being peeled (e.g. by real tanks).

Tanks are already at the bottom of /serverinfo unlike hybrids who all have at least a niche in solo/smallman with some quite useful running with the BG for their RAs (TWF, ST) or AE hammers.

Also the snares you´re handing out like candy are still 60% where live has them at 40% (but also Grapple, Bodyguard, Charge, snare reactives ...)

Completely agree….it’s like styles are being “balanced” with no consideration to the other abilities a class might have

Sat 29 May 2021 5:06 PM by gotwqqd

lurker wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 3:08 PM
Eugh. This is all madness to be honest.

Minor tweaks to make some style lines viable - fine we were all on board for that.

Minor tweaks to make the style positional icons match up in game - fine, I don't think anybody cared that much, but fine.

But what's proposed here is so far beyond that and so totally not classic.

I already k ow a few people who have stopped playing until this is finalised. They may well not be back.

Just feels like another step on the road to a live-like and distancing phoneox further from it's classic roots.

I certainly won't be playing again of I have to race respec some classes, redoo templates etc. That was literally one of the key promises of this server - nothings gonna change that drastically to force people to do that. I don't have the plats or time to farm them to bother.

I just want to play after weeks of events and changes and now this.wewere all having fun previously this wasn't needed.

/Rant off.

Agree
I was hoping to see 4-6 changes to styles per class line.
Maybe some help for the issue with streaks for the 3/4 length chains due to the mechanics used for hit/miss

Sat 29 May 2021 5:07 PM by gotwqqd

Leafus wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 3:18 PM
I agree.

I’ll never forget Mythics infamous quote: you will never not be in control of your toon. Lol ok how about standing around?

What I am seeing are stuns after stuns and what will happen is melee in the middle all stunning each other standing around mezzed rooted or stunned and the team with the most nukers in the back burning down the center wins.

We really want people standing around stunned or mezzed an entire fight? That’s fun? Both sides just motionless on a screen? Too many stuns for too long. Let’s have action as a source of fun. Fights and swinging swords and axes and hammers. Nukers nuking.

I’d love to see immunity granted on CC resisted.

Sat 29 May 2021 6:22 PM by Sethor

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 5:07 PM
Leafus wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 3:18 PM
I agree.

I’ll never forget Mythics infamous quote: you will never not be in control of your toon. Lol ok how about standing around?

What I am seeing are stuns after stuns and what will happen is melee in the middle all stunning each other standing around mezzed rooted or stunned and the team with the most nukers in the back burning down the center wins.

We really want people standing around stunned or mezzed an entire fight? That’s fun? Both sides just motionless on a screen? Too many stuns for too long. Let’s have action as a source of fun. Fights and swinging swords and axes and hammers. Nukers nuking.
I’d love to see immunity granted on CC resisted.

One of the reasons why DAoC remained paramount for RvR MMOs for almost 20 years is its class diversity and distinctive play style of those classes in a multi-layered tactical combat situation. Or to put it simply, skill, ability use and situational awareness matter from start to end of a fight. Crowd Control is one of those layers and even though it is powerful, there's plenty of ways to counter it. Purge can be skilled to a point at which it is available every 5 minutes to any class. Tanks and Off-tanks may reduce the effect of any crowd control effect by 75%. Your suggestion would lead to harmonization in a severity that potentially takes away the soul of DAoC, and I think the same about the style overhaul.

Sat 29 May 2021 6:46 PM by bculpepper

Thanks for the updates since the previous round. I can see several positive changes. It sounded from your post that you are most interested in comparing different lines from the same class to one another and will be looking at the mirror classes (assassins) and I think I have some decent experience with the classes and can share my thoughts.

My main characters are a RR11 SB, RR6 Skald, and RR5 Infiltrator. Playstyle is almost 100% solo.

Skald
Overall, it looks much better to me than the previous round. I see where the off-block styles have moved to off-parry which is good. There are only a couple of areas I would point out:

Axe: Valkyrie Shield off-parry does not have a to-hit bonus. Every other off-parry on every other line does. Instead, it has a +10 defense. Comparing to the other styles I think maybe this was an oversight and the +10 should have been on the to-hit and a 0 on defense.
Sword: The only rear snare is at 50 weapon spec. That spec is not possible for a Skald so in essence sword becomes not viable for any skald. There should be some rear snare at a spec 44 or lower.

Assassin
Every assassin is going to spec 52 composite weapon and then use styles from CS or LA/DW/CD. The only styles from the primary line are for a ASR or occasional stun. Therefore, I’m only looking at CS vs LA/DW/CD and don’t really care so much about the primary line.

I’m guessing you guys haven’t done a lot of balancing here yet because I see a lot of problems. As an overall theme the concept of a shadowzerker (50 LA spec) just isn’t viable anymore. I really hate that as it is a great flavor of the class. It was the only spec that could get you into darkspire and removing the 3-part rear chain with DD proc just guts that spec. I really don’t see a spec outside of 50CS as the changes/improvements to the CS line completely outshine LA. This is also true for CD and to a lesser extend DW. Basically, everybody is going to spec 50CS.

Critical Strike: Everything about Ripper is HUGE. +20 to-hit. +10 defense. 5 endurance. The highest damage style in the game from what I could see.
Critical Strike: Garrote / Deaths Door is so much better than Doublefrost. Currently Garrote / Achilles Heel are only slightly better than Doublefrost and depending on LA spec Doublefrost could be better. With the new styles using LA for anytime isn't worth it and it will require everyone to go high CS.

Dual Wield styles for Infiltrator are much better than Left Axe styles for SB. In addition, the extra spec points for Infiltrators means they are going to have access to a lot more styles at higher levels than SB or NS.

(DW) Level 21 Penumbra does 207 and (LA) Level 39 Snowsquall does 198. Can’t see the reasoning here. Higher spec styles should do more damage than lower spec styles in the same positional.
LA: The frontal combo of Doubler/Scathing bleed doesn’t come close to Dual Shadows. There is no need for haste debuff or snare on those styles – add a bleed to one or both styles. I get that Dual Shadows is 50 spec and should have more damage, but this is pretty drastic and Infiltrators having the points to get Dual Shadows should play into the calculation here.
LA: Aurora Borealis would be so much better where it is today. It’s the essence of what makes a shadowzerker spec. BSII->Snowsquall->IcyBrillance->AuroraBorealis. Without this combo you can’t do a spec that doesn’t include PA->CD
Assuming Aurora Borealis stays where it is, the damage is terrible. (LA)Level 50 Aurora does 195 while (DW)level 39 Shadow’s Rain does 208? Is it missing a DD proc? All the other level 50 styles do huge damage or have huge effects but Aurora Borealis is very weak.

Edit: After some further looking - a good starting point would be to take LA from Berserker and copy it to SB. The LA styles Aurora Borealis/Snowsquall/IcyBrillance for Berserker are way more in line with the DualWield styles for Infiltrator

Sat 29 May 2021 7:19 PM by Saroi

bculpepper wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 6:46 PM
(DW) Level 21 Penumbra does 207 and (LA) Level 39 Snowsquall does 198. Can’t see the reasoning here. Higher spec styles should do more damage than lower spec styles in the same positional.
LA: The frontal combo of Doubler/Scathing bleed doesn’t come close to Dual Shadows. There is no need for haste debuff or snare on those styles – add a bleed to one or both styles. I get that Dual Shadows is 50 spec and should have more damage, but this is pretty drastic and Infiltrators having the points to get Dual Shadows should play into the calculation here.
LA: Aurora Borealis would be so much better where it is today. It’s the essence of what makes a shadowzerker spec. BSII->Snowsquall->IcyBrillance->AuroraBorealis. Without this combo you can’t do a spec that doesn’t include PA->CD
Assuming Aurora Borealis stays where it is, the damage is terrible. (LA)Level 50 Aurora does 195 while (DW)level 39 Shadow’s Rain does 208? Is it missing a DD proc? All the other level 50 styles do huge damage or have huge effects but Aurora Borealis is very weak.

Edit: After some further looking - a good starting point would be to take LA from Berserker and copy it to SB. The LA styles Aurora Borealis/Snowsquall/IcyBrillance for Berserker are way more in line with the DualWield styles for Infiltrator

What you mean more in line with Inf? Berserker damage on styles like Aurora is way over it and would be way too much for SB. THe reason It feels weak on SB is because atm SB LA is way too overpowered. From all the Sins it is the only one that has gotten the Light Tanks buffs in it's Dual line(Inf Dual Shadows Bleed got nerfed so that Lighttank buff is not in anymore) and now it will be taken away with the style changes. Something that should have been done long time ago.

And if you compare some styles than maybe compare them all? Aurora does less damage than Shadow's rain, but Decaying rage as the first style is at 210 dmg, with HIGH defense bonus, while flank is at 162 dmg and medium defense bonus. So a combined attack from SB will do more damage.

Sat 29 May 2021 7:26 PM by easytoremember

bculpepper wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 6:46 PM
(DW) Level 21 Penumbra does 207 and (LA) Level 39 Snowsquall does 198. Can’t see the reasoning here. Higher spec styles should do more damage than lower spec styles in the same positional.

Why?
If they're styles in the same line, sure, mostly. I could see a higher level one being weaker in exchange for no defense penalty for example or having some nasty follow-up.
If they're in different lines or classes entirely there's no obligation to make them the same scaling.

In the first place MH/LH damage for LA is different from DW and DW from CD, Slash/Thrust/Crush to Blades/Pierce/Blunt to Sword/Axe/Hammer, and even more so the various 2H and irregulars (flex,h2h).

Sat 29 May 2021 7:39 PM by Nephamael

While there is a thought to reduce the stickyness of certain tanks, that's kind of a more finer tuning phase which would happen nowish.

I regard this topic from a pure 8v8 perspective, where classic offtanks = zerker, bm, (merc) are struggling the most to fulfill their promise of stickyness already.

Zerker struggles the most followed by BM and then Merc.

Reasons: Zerker has a 100% offhand swingrate and currently the highest mainhand missrate (conquer)= whenever the mainhand misses and the offhand hits the zerker breaks his own snare = if the zerker is snared the target escapes

BM has had endu struggles on top of self snare break and only a 12s backsnare

Merc also has the 12s snare but no enduproblems (friar grp endu reduction)

So i suggest not mirroring the 3 classes for what you try to achieve.

My suggestion if you rly want to go the short snare path and risk even a bigger shift from classic offtanks to reavers/arms/thanes/warr/skald/hero/champ/vw:

Zerk: 12s backsnare

BM: 8s backsnare

Merc: 5s backsnare

All 3 snares will feel very short and all 3 classes will not be able to stay on target for a prolonged time, if they are snared.

Sat 29 May 2021 7:45 PM by Nephamael

A few other people already mentioned it.

I would love to see class theme/signature styles to remain intact.

This does especially include after evade short stuns for infi.

LA being a viable spec for SB.

After evade 5s stun for NS at a reachable spec in pierce (NS has very low specpoints and can never reach 44 pierce below RR13). lvl25 is a very good place for this stun to be.

I would welcome to see at least 2 different duration stun options for all 3 assassins, as playing with short and long stuns is much fun in a 1v1 and can sometimes catch an opponent offguard.

Sat 29 May 2021 7:50 PM by Nephamael

Get rid of the starting styles and make Taunt/detaunt always, in every line, the styles 1 and 2.

YES !!! YES !!! YES !!!!

This will free up styles for interesting reactionaries!

Sat 29 May 2021 8:45 PM by soremir

It is hard to ignore that VW is a monster in this iteration, especially when you consider that they will all go 50 weap, and then have spells, ichor, and (eye roll) MoC Lifetap as well.

Sat 29 May 2021 9:12 PM by Leafus

What is or will be the role of the light tank then? If hybrids like the VW are going to be even more awesome, what is the vision for the light tank? Serious question.

Sat 29 May 2021 9:22 PM by Jodocus_Quak

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 7:45 PM
A few other people already mentioned it.

I would love to see class theme/signature styles to remain intact.

This does especially include after evade short stuns for infi.

LA being a viable spec for SB.

After evade 5s stun for NS at a reachable spec in pierce (NS has very low specpoints and can never reach 44 pierce below RR13). lvl25 is a very good place for this stun to be.

I would welcome to see at least 2 different duration stun options for all 3 assassins, as playing with short and long stuns is much fun in a 1v1 and can sometimes catch an opponent offguard.

I actually like the idea of a short and long stun for stealther rvr. The short stun (1 sec = 6 sec immunity) should be on an anytimer to draw purge from inexperienced or lazy players or as a stop in key situations. The long stun should be on an after evade style, so ppl can understand, when its long and short, if they pay attention to logs or animation. That brings a new skill layer to the game.

Sat 29 May 2021 11:59 PM by aaron

There are so many bad changes in there I couldn't possibly list them all. This is one of the worst proposed changes I've seen on this server, I guess 2nd to only the proposed TOA changes, which I made this forum account to say you should not implement.

I only post this now simply to say that these style changes are so bad that I don't think you should even consider trying to salvage them, and simply do not implement any of them. They will simply make the game worse in every single way. Absolutely horrible ideas all around and should be scrapped.

Sun 30 May 2021 1:53 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Since we're adding styles, can large shield users get Shield Swipe added, please?

There really isn't a reason to not have it that I can see.

Sun 30 May 2021 5:53 AM by Magesty

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 9:08 AM
The reaver only has a 9s slam and the self haste won't be active for the whole time. Regardless, vw will still end up dealing less damage with the style procs, given that it's on the follow ups only it's effectively half the listed delve, in practice even less due to miss.
Given that the levi based reaver existed since pretty much forever and the vw procs result in noticeably less effective dd damage I don't really see it as an issue, certainly not on a scale like you apparently see it.

As for the OP kit, you mean like the reaver then which also has everything? Every class with access to shield spec will pretty much have "everything" as part of the style overhaul is to have all lines usable which by definition means all lines must have a positional snare at least, add shield spec to that and you have a 9s stun.

The issue that I have with the VW styles as they currently stand stems from that fact that you are taking a class that already performs well and effectively buffing it to the gills with additional damage along with a frontal snare. It's a little concerning that you aren't even acknowledging what a difference changing the side chain to two styles and handing out a frontal snare/proc chain does to a VW's actual damage output across the board, especially in solo and small man situations. On top of the massively increased damage using side/frontal spam, they also get a free melee snare as an additional tool to kite.

Comparing the class to a Reaver as a means of dismissal is a red flag to me. Flexible is not a well designed line. The Reaver, in total, is not very well designed. Slam & Leviathan are extremely oppressive mechanics, and there is a reason Reavers have not only a weaker Levi on Live, but also a gimped slam. I'm disappointed to see Leviathan remaining at such a high delve value. Also, let's not pretend that VWs and Reavers have comparable kits. The Valewalker is able to play a kite game that the Reaver simply cannot. Things like this have to be considered when comparing classes for the sake of balance-- not just raw damage output.

Sun 30 May 2021 11:09 AM by Renork

Aren’t VWs still one of the most underplayed classes or did something change?

Sun 30 May 2021 12:16 PM by Blitze

Underplayed yes, underpowered no.

Selfishly I am concerned that the Friars Staff style Revamp is giving them the same melee playstyle as the VW.. I don’t want to play a strafelag sidestyle stunner

Sun 30 May 2021 2:08 PM by Bradekes

I just wonder if Warden styles are going to have their live effect. If not they're just adding uselessly high endo styles to Warden that really aren't worth getting. There's nothing in the description besides 50 endo and 1 decent growth rate style with no effect.

Sun 30 May 2021 2:13 PM by P173

Could you please add a to hit bonus to the h2h backstyle followup (Clan's Might (18) )?Seems to be the only positional followup with no to hit bonus and atm its nearly unusable due to the high miss rate.

Sun 30 May 2021 3:57 PM by Forlornhope

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 30 May 2021 1:53 AM
Since we're adding styles, can large shield users get Shield Swipe added, please?

There really isn't a reason to not have it that I can see.

I'd be cool with Warr/arms/hero getting it, but I really don't think reavers need shield swipe.

Edit: although now that I think about it, I actually don't even remember what level shield you get that at. It's been over a decade since I played any version of this game with shield swipe. So I can't even remember if specing for it's a viable option on a reaver.

Sun 30 May 2021 4:24 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sun 30 May 2021 3:57 PM
Edit: although now that I think about it, I actually don't even remember what level shield you get that at. It's been over a decade since I played any version of this game with shield swipe. So I can't even remember if specing for it's a viable option on a reaver.

It was 41 on Live, but that doesn't mean it has to be that low here.

Sun 30 May 2021 4:59 PM by Renork

Blitze wrote: ↑
Sun 30 May 2021 12:16 PM
Underplayed yes, underpowered no.

Selfishly I am concerned that the Friars Staff style Revamp is giving them the same melee playstyle as the VW.. I don’t want to play a strafelag sidestyle stunner

Oh I agree, they are not underpowered but crybabies here making it sound like they are one of the best classes in the game and we know that’s not remotely close to being true, come on. If the style procs are going to be added, then they just need to scale down the DD portion.

Sun 30 May 2021 5:08 PM by Islandsbrygge

Yes dont fall into the trap of the cry babies. They want to keep their position on top of the food chain.

Sun 30 May 2021 6:15 PM by Nephamael

Aren’t VWs still one of the most underplayed classes or did something change?

Yes, VWs on Phoenix have a few major problems making them undesireable to play:

1) no cast disease 1a) no inst pbaoe disease
2) they require det9+purge3+ichor2 before you can even think about going dps for 8v8 - and tbh imo baod3 as well = the RR requirement for getting started in 8v8 is more excessive than even for a primary healer or peeltank
3) disease proc is 15% (20% if allin aboreal) and 30s duration = very unrealiable

Underplayed yes, underpowered no.

Selfishly I am concerned that the Friars Staff style Revamp is giving them the same melee playstyle as the VW.. I don’t want to play a strafelag sidestyle stunner

A main problem of balancing VW without giving him at least the cast disease to be more of a hybrid than just a offtank without a shield is the solo content, where he can be played as a hybrid more reliably than in 8v8.
I kinda can't see a way for VW to not be underpowered at low RR and overpowered at high RR for 8v8 with having access to Ichor and Baod.
And i can't see a way for VW to be not op in a 1v1 scenario if properly balanced for 8v8 without cast disease.

Sun 30 May 2021 7:15 PM by Nephamael

My Armsman style change overhaul #2:

Armsman Pole:

Anytime:

-Deflect (6) = Detaunt [untouched]

-Distract (12) = Taunt [untouched]

-Crippling Blow (18) = 4s snare, Followup: Mangle (29) = asr debuff 21% [Class theme/signature move with adjusted snare duration]

Positional Back:

-Phalanx (25) 15s snare, Followup: Defenders Revenge (44) 9s Stun [untouched]

Positional Side:

-Defenders Cross (4) [208dmg] 15s snare, Followup: Disabler (21) [222dmg] 6s Stun
-Poleaxe (39) 19s snare, Followup: Defenders Aegis (50) bleed [untouched besides snare increase]

Reactionary After Parry:

-Defenders Faith (8) [198dmg] 5s stun, Followup: Defenders Courage (15) [240dmg] asr debuff 30%
-Executioner (10), Followup: Defenders Advance (48) [+10/+15] bleed [untouched except for +5 more to hit on Defenders Advance]

Reactionary After Enemy Style:

-Defenders Rage (34) [185dmg] 20 bleed 20s

or: -Impale (2) [185 dmg] [+10/+5] 16% asr debuff, Followup: Defenders Rage (34) [240dmg] 20 bleed 20s

Sun 30 May 2021 9:25 PM by Nephamael

Armsman Twohanded #2

With Twohanded i am mostly happy, it just lacks a 2nd and maybe 3rd reactionary chain.

Anytimer:

-Rile (6) Taunt

-Pacify (8) Detaunt

Positional Back:

-Doubler (39) 19s snare, Followup: Sun and Moon (50) 7s stun [23s backsnare seems a bit over the top, 19s should do]

Positional Side:

-Onslaught (15) 14s snare, Followup: Two Moons (44) 9s stun [untouched - if the 2h theme should be long backsnare shorter sidesnare this can stay, else the snare durations could be exchanged]

Positional Front:

-Bone Bruiser [151dmg] 18% asr debuff

-Bone Splitter (21) 12s snare, Followup: Bone Breaker (25) bleed [added snare to opener]

Reactionary After Parry:

-Double Back (4) [198dmg] 18% asr debuff, Followup: Two Fists (10) [240dmg] 5s stun
-Fury (18) bleed, Followup: Recenter (25) [240dmg] 30% asr debuff [upped followup dmg and asr debuff, else untouched]

Reactionary Enemy Parries:

- Obfuscate (34) [185dmg] 24% asr debuff

Reactionary Enemy Blocks:

- Half Moon (2) [185dmg] [+10/+0] 20 bleed 20s

Sun 30 May 2021 10:37 PM by Noashakra

Islandsbrygge wrote: ↑
Sun 30 May 2021 5:08 PM
Yes dont fall into the trap of the cry babies. They want to keep their position on top of the food chain.

I play on the 3 realms and I have one VW and seeing objective problems with its power creep in the 8vs8 balance is not being a cry baby.
It was already the main DPS in hib tanker (a setup that was in a good place for 8vs8 since the warden up), and they just increase the power of its main DPS source, plus giving it a back and front sare.
Maybe you should use your brain before calling others cry babies.

Mon 31 May 2021 8:36 AM by Sepplord

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sun 30 May 2021 6:15 PM
Yes, VWs on Phoenix have a few major problems making them undesireable to play:

1) no cast disease 1a) no inst pbaoe disease
2) they require det9+purge3+ichor2 before you can even think about going dps for 8v8 - and tbh imo baod3 as well = the RR requirement for getting started in 8v8 is more excessive than even for a primary healer or peeltank
3) disease proc is 15% (20% if allin aboreal) and 30s duration = very unrealiable

Serious question, but what am i missing about the desease points?
Other melee DPS classes don't offer those tools neither, so why is a disadvantage that valewalker "only" has a desease-proc?
Similarly the RA-"issue"....every single meele in the game needs det9+purge before getting alternatives, and most don't have as many options as a valewalker when rooted/snared. Having strong active options besides dmg passives afterwards is a downside instead of an upside?

Mon 31 May 2021 8:47 AM by Noashakra

I would add that people spec ichor 1, no point in having the 2
And yeah my warrior also have to spec with dashing and barricade.
It's a choice to spec baod instead of passive RA.

Mon 31 May 2021 9:35 AM by Astaa

Can we get 24 hours free respec to try out these changes?

Mon 31 May 2021 9:53 AM by DJ2000

Another suggestion on how to use style space.

Let's take an example of things i like:
Warrior - Sword - After Block:
it has 1 opener ; Frost Cut (lvl4) ; and 3 follow-ups : Assault (lvl10), Baldur's Fury (lvl18) and Niord's Fury (lvl39).
A reactionary chain that has a very interesting tool-kit aspect to it, where the player can decide which style/effect to apply after the opener. Short-stun/Long-stun/etc.
The incentive being to spec further down the line to open up access and to expand the options for the reactionary-chain.

Now an example of something i don't like:
Armsman - Polearm - Side:
There are 3x 2-part side chains at various levels.
Defender's Cross (lvl4) - Disabler (lvl21)
Snare 11sec into ASR 21%

Crippling Blow (lvl18) - Mangle (lvl29)
Snare 11sec into Stun 6sec

Poleaxe (lvl39) - Defender's Aegis (lvl50)
Snare 15sec. into Bleed 32

The incentive is to spec further down the line, to get "better" chains. But this feels like wasted style space. You always start any chain with a Snare. Yes, some aspects may differ like the endu cost or base damage values etc. unlike in the Warrior-example above, the problem here is that the lower Styles, or complete chains even, can become obsolete. The lower-Lvl opener in the above Warrior example will never become obsolete. Instead, it will become "stronger" as new options can/will be unlocked for it.

To me, the warrior-Sword approach is the "better way" to do things, than the Armsman-Polearm approach. Its more interesting as a gameplay mechanic for a Player, higher value as styles will never become obsolete, and it saves Style spaces that can be used in better/different ways as it is here.

Mon 31 May 2021 10:44 AM by SlowMo

Althoug I totally agree in revamping those lines to be more equal an usable, I see a big fat strafe festival comin, more then it already is.
Some may call it skill, some mechanics abuse... doesnt matter, it was never my playstyle.

And I have a hard time believing that it was intentional at first place.
Let´s see where this is going.

Mon 31 May 2021 11:02 AM by DJ2000

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Mon 31 May 2021 10:44 AM
Althoug I totally agree in revamping those lines to be more equal an usable, I see a big fat strafe festival comin, more then it already is.
Some may call it skill, some mechanics abuse... doesnt matter, it was never my playstyle.

You are not the only one feeling like that.
It may or may not be changed in the future, but as of now, it is intended by the Devs as a form of "movement skill".
There are certainly positive aspects, as there are negatives, to the "Dance".
But regardless how anyone feels about it, it's here and been here for a while now, and we'll have to wait and see how the near future unfolds.

Mon 31 May 2021 11:28 AM by byron

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 31 May 2021 11:02 AM
You are not the only one feeling like that.
It may or may not be changed in the future, but as of now, it is intended by the Devs as a form of "movement skill".
There are certainly positive aspects, as there are negatives, to the "Dance".
But regardless how anyone feels about it, it's here and been here for a while now, and we'll have to wait and see how the near future unfolds.

It depends if the difficult to land a style will be rewarded with damage or not. According from what I read the side arc will be reduced too in the next phase so in the future will be harder to land side styles for example. But ,if this will be truth, these styles should do more damage than now as reward .

Mon 31 May 2021 2:03 PM by DJ2000

byron wrote: ↑
Mon 31 May 2021 11:28 AM
It depends if the difficult to land a style will be rewarded with damage or not. According from what I read the side arc will be reduced too in the next phase so in the future will be harder to land side styles for example. But ,if this will be truth, these styles should do more damage than now as reward .

That's your way of evaluating if it's ok or not. Don't be sad if the Dev's way is different from yours.
But anyway, all in testing atm. Nothing set in stone.
I'll say it again, we'll have to wait and see how the near future unfolds.

Mon 31 May 2021 2:43 PM by byron

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 31 May 2021 2:03 PM
That's your way of evaluating if it's ok or not. Don't be sad if the Dev's way is different from yours.
But anyway, all in testing atm. Nothing set in stone.
I'll say it again, we'll have to wait and see how the near future unfolds.

yeah for sure, we are to discuss and share opinions and ideas. I'm positive about the changes and I'm confident also that maybe something will need to be tuned in a later stage. I see it as an occasion to have something new to try. But I think we have an occasion too to contribute to fix as many styles as possible befire these styles will go live

I'm only sad that discord channels to discuss the styles changes are not so populated atm indeed.

Mon 31 May 2021 7:01 PM by Nephamael

Hero Celtic Spear Style by Style revamp:

Anytimer:

-Forest Spear (10) [+10/+0] Taunt [adjusted to hit rate to match Eagle Talon to free a style]

-Hunters Barb (8) Detaunt [untouched]

Positional Back:

-Tracking Spear (21) 15s snare [untouched]

Positional Side:

-Javelin (18) [240dmg] 21% asr debuff, Followup: Hunters Gift (25) [240dmg] 6s stun [adjusted dmg to stay viable]
-Dragon Talon (44) 20s snare, Followup: Cuchulains Revenge (50) bleed [tuned snare down to 20s, else untouched]

Positional Front:

-Hunters Boon (6) [144dmg] 16% asr debuff, Followup: Hunters Lance (15) bleed [adjusted opener dmg to better match other frontals across all realms, else untouched]

Reactionary after Evade:

-Entrap (4) [208dmg] bleed, Followup: Hunters Largess (12) [240dmg] 5s stun [adjusted dmg to match other reactionaries]

Reactionary after Parry:

-Hawks Talon (29) [+10/+5] bleed, Followup: Wyverns Talon (39) 30% asr debuff [adjusted the +hitrate to match current after parry and increased asr debuff on followup]
-Eagle Talon (34) [208dmg] 5s stun
Or: -Hunters Spear (2) [208dmg] [+10/+5] 5s stun, Followup: Eagle Talon (34) [240dmg] 20 bleed 20s

Mon 31 May 2021 8:42 PM by jonny290

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 31 May 2021 11:02 AM
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Mon 31 May 2021 10:44 AM
Althoug I totally agree in revamping those lines to be more equal an usable, I see a big fat strafe festival comin,
You are not the only one feeling like that.
It may or may not be changed in the future, but as of now, it is intended by the Devs as a form of "movement skill".

That's one of my big problems with a lot of these changes. We're encouraging cheesy movement to land styles*, but you still get banned if you strafe at low health. It seems inconsistent.

*Sorry but if you're inside another char's model , facing them, and 1 unit to the right you shouldn't be able to land a side chain. Watch any VW video and be amazed at what they're allowed to do.

Mon 31 May 2021 9:51 PM by whitewolf253

Overall I like the direction and idea of the changes. It's pretty lame how 99% of midgard uses hammer simply because it's the only line with viable RvR styles. It'll be nice being able to spec sword or axe if you want and not losing all utility. Also nice to see a lot more utility for certain classes. Just glancing over the list and the it looks like we'll see a lot of this line or that line based on how much spec it's getting.

Will damage tables for each class still exist or are they going away with the new styles?

Mon 31 May 2021 10:35 PM by Nephamael

Hero LW Style by Style Revamp:

Anytimer:

-Hibernian Might (1) Taunt [130dmg] [+10/-10] [had to salvage lvl1 and 2 styles to free enough styles, this could be done for other classes too]
-Celtic Might (2) [0dmg] [+0+/15] Detaunt [had to salvage lvl1 and 2 styles to free enough styles]

Positional Back:

-Gigantic Blow (25) 15s snare [untouched]
-Annihilation (50) [255dmg] 9s stun [now an opener, tuned dmg down a bit to match what a lvl50 dmg opener should do - compare to Ragnarök]

Positional Side:

-Domination (15) 12s snare, Followup: Demolish (34) [240dmg] 20 bleed 20s

Positional Front:

-Fontal Assault (21) 12s slow, Followup: Shatter (39) [240dmg] 20 bleed 20s [added snare to opener, lowered followup dmg to get closer to other frontals]
-Obliteration (18) [141dmg] 18% asr debuff

Reactionary After Parry:

-Hibernian Rage (4) 4s stun, Followup: Hibernian Vigor (12) [240dmg] 30% asr debuff [moved stun to opener, moved asr debuff from UR to Hibernian Vigor, increased followup dmg to stay viable]
-Ultimate Recovery (29) 20 bleed 20s, Followup: Devastate (44) [240dmg] 7s stun [opener gets bleed, followup dmg increased]

Reactionary After Enemy Parry:

-Hibernian Wrath (8) [185dmg] [10+/-5] 6s stun, Followup: Hibernian Force (10) [185dmg] [+10/+15] 30% asr debuff 20s

Reactionary After Enemy Block:

-Celtic Fury (6) [185dmg] [+10/+5] 20 bleed 20s

Mon 31 May 2021 10:42 PM by ExcretusMaximus

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 30 May 2021 1:53 AM
Since we're adding styles, can large shield users get Shield Swipe added, please?

There really isn't a reason to not have it that I can see.

Visibility bump.

Tue 1 Jun 2021 5:46 AM by Centenario

Please explain what shield swipe is?
I personally don't want live DAoC, its like a slither.io arena of worms each bigger than the other.

Tue 1 Jun 2021 6:09 AM by inoeth

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 5:46 AM
Please explain what shield swipe is?
I personally don't want live DAoC, its like a slither.io arena of worms each bigger than the other.

you dont want what you dont know? well thats sounds really human xD

Tue 1 Jun 2021 6:27 AM by Centenario

I left it when it went to hell in 2003
Catacomb skins, ewww
ML, yuk
Artefact powers, lul
1v1 viable on any class, omg
2 bars of buff on a non-buff class, haha
The worst was the rework of the dungeons and the scalable areas.... Ruining world exp and knowledge

Tue 1 Jun 2021 7:06 AM by easytoremember

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 5:46 AM
Please explain what shield swipe is?
I personally don't want live DAoC, its like a slither.io arena of worms each bigger than the other.

I might be mixing it up with a CL style but I remember the shield style with a growthrate comparable to most weapon anytimers which allows someone invested into shield to hit pretty hard with their shield and land shield procs. It didn't have a stun or any effect on it.

Tue 1 Jun 2021 7:11 AM by inoeth

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 6:27 AM
I left it when it went to hell in 2003
Catacomb skins, ewww
ML, yuk
Artefact powers, lul
1v1 viable on any class, omg
2 bars of buff on a non-buff class, haha
The worst was the rework of the dungeons and the scalable areas.... Ruining world exp and knowledge

sounds like you would like it on uthgard...

i really loved all that stuff, it made me stay on daoc rather than leave to wow

and btw shield swipe is an aoe style hitting up to 16 targets, still wonder why ppl cant google that themself these times...

Tue 1 Jun 2021 7:40 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 5:46 AM
Please explain what shield swipe is?

A very small AE that deals what is essentially detaunt damage but allow tanks to actually tank for a group instead of being forced to do nothing but bounce around to each ten times.

It would also help peel tanks kill Theurg pets instead of forcing casters to do it.

Tue 1 Jun 2021 7:42 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 6:27 AM
I left it when it went to hell in 2003
Catacomb skins, ewww
ML, yuk
Artefact powers, lul
1v1 viable on any class, omg
2 bars of buff on a non-buff class, haha
The worst was the rework of the dungeons and the scalable areas.... Ruining world exp and knowledge

None of that stuff existed in 2003 except ML's for a whopping two months.

Tue 1 Jun 2021 10:41 AM by Centenario

im describing "hell" w/e

Tue 1 Jun 2021 2:58 PM by Komaf

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 7:40 AM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 5:46 AM
Please explain what shield swipe is?

A very small AE that deals what is essentially detaunt damage but allow tanks to actually tank for a group instead of being forced to do nothing but bounce around to each ten times.

It would also help peel tanks kill Theurg pets instead of forcing casters to do it.

One of the few things I loved about the Toa'ish / Champ Level stuff that affected DaoC was that aoe shout main tanks had. Basically a WoW inspired aoe tank taunt. So, the shield swipe is awesome as well. Whichever is easier for devs would make it fine - so long as it worked ;p

Tue 1 Jun 2021 4:08 PM by Magesty

Komaf wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 2:58 PM
One of the few things I loved about the Toa'ish / Champ Level stuff that affected DaoC was that aoe shout main tanks had. Basically a WoW inspired aoe tank taunt. So, the shield swipe is awesome as well. Whichever is easier for devs would make it fine - so long as it worked ;p

The cone taunt shout came along with the heavy tank changes shortly after the Classic servers were released. This included the castable group absorption buff, health pool increases, resistance increases, a pbae demezz shout, fury, climbing spikes, and possibly a weapon skill buff-- not positive I'm remembering that last one correctly.

You know, a bunch of things that aren't present on Phoenix, but have been taken into account when "balancing" style lines like Polearm on live.

Wed 2 Jun 2021 12:44 AM by Tyrlaan

Shield Swipe i.e. a PBAE style (applying procs and such) would be pretty overpowered on Phoenix. Rush some crowded space like a tower/keep lordroom/roof with heavy tanks and spam a style to AE rupt everybody? You can use a AE DD proc weapon for a chance to do that if you want. Other than that AE damage should remain magic - if you wanna be able to clear pets quickly, include a class that can do that - yes that might mean you still need to run a squishie of some sort.

Wed 2 Jun 2021 1:20 AM by Nephamael

The 2 new Warden high dmg styles are a funny idea, but they won't work because Warden on Phoenix does not have the spec points to have any endu reduction, while having high weapon and nurt spec.

Example1: 49 nurt allows 44 weapon (= 4 points left for parry, no healing)

Example2: 49 nurt 40 weapon 12 heal (=20% endu reduction) 13 parry = parry is still a lot 2 low for any soloing or surviving being focused in 8v8 (miles away from vw or friar survivability)

Example3: 45 nurt allows for 48 weapon or 44 weapon and 19 parry / 40 weapon 23 parry 13 heal (already not viable for 8v8 because of mid spirit train)

Even with Example3 parry is still uncomfortably low and with 20% endu reduction there would be no way you could use 2 75 Endu cost styles in 1 fight, basically you can use that style once and then you will run out of endu and have to use your pot for endu.

-----------------------------

I recommend: putting the enducost of the "high" dmg blade and blunt style to somewhere between 15 and 30 endu, so they can be used 2 or 3 times in a fight.

Wed 2 Jun 2021 2:56 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 12:44 AM
Shield Swipe i.e. a PBAE style (applying procs and such) would be pretty overpowered on Phoenix. Rush some crowded space like a tower/keep lordroom/roof with heavy tanks and spam a style to AE rupt everybody?

If people are literally standing on top of each other like mouth breathing morons, they deserve to be beaten into the floor. The AE on Shield Swipe is tiny, unless it received a significant buff.

Wed 2 Jun 2021 3:03 AM by boridi

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 12:44 AM
Shield Swipe i.e. a PBAE style (applying procs and such) would be pretty overpowered on Phoenix. Rush some crowded space like a tower/keep lordroom/roof with heavy tanks and spam a style to AE rupt everybody? You can use a AE DD proc weapon for a chance to do that if you want. Other than that AE damage should remain magic - if you wanna be able to clear pets quickly, include a class that can do that - yes that might mean you still need to run a squishie of some sort.

Yes, it would be awful if hero/arms/warr could do something in a keep. Let's give staff styles to mentalists instead!

Wed 2 Jun 2021 3:59 AM by Tyrlaan

boridi wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 3:03 AM
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 12:44 AM
Shield Swipe i.e. a PBAE style (applying procs and such) would be pretty overpowered on Phoenix. Rush some crowded space like a tower/keep lordroom/roof with heavy tanks and spam a style to AE rupt everybody? You can use a AE DD proc weapon for a chance to do that if you want. Other than that AE damage should remain magic - if you wanna be able to clear pets quickly, include a class that can do that - yes that might mean you still need to run a squishie of some sort.

Yes, it would be awful if hero/arms/warr could do something in a keep. Let's give staff styles to mentalists instead!

If they are at a point where they can do shield styles they can do something already? Like deliver Slams to reduce enemy damage output for a push? Tanks and a couple hybrids are boring while doors are closed, not when they are open, so your argument doesn´t hold water. And yes, it makes a difference if the ones running up to rupt or distract the backline/defenders or drop the AoEs have 2000 hps or 4000 hps.

People standing on top of each other in chokepoints to defend, that´s kind of the point of PBAE. No they don´t "deserve" to have yet another couple classes to get easy ways to AE rupt them as easily as with a style that can be spammed (while they have to blow MoC to do anything). We don´t need Banelord and anytime PBAE styles here. Want AoE, play a squishie. Want easy pet clear, include a squishie. After all, your enemy included a squishie too to have PBAE or pet spam in the first place.

Wed 2 Jun 2021 5:14 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 3:59 AM
People standing on top of each other in chokepoints to defend, that´s kind of the point of PBAE. No they don´t "deserve" to have yet another couple classes to get easy ways to AE rupt them as easily as with a style that can be spammed (while they have to blow MoC to do anything).

Oh, is this the part where we pretend every lord push isn't dominated by TWF and Negative Maelstrom? Or where we pretend Shield Swipe can be used more than two or three times before being out of endurance? Or is it the part where we pretend that tanks are hard to kill when they charge a lord room against 30 people and there are only 5 of them because the support stays below where they can't be interrupted? I'm confused as to which bullshit paper DAoC scenario we're entertaining.

Wed 2 Jun 2021 6:21 AM by easytoremember

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 5:14 AM
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 3:59 AM
People standing on top of each other in chokepoints to defend, that´s kind of the point of PBAE. No they don´t "deserve" to have yet another couple classes to get easy ways to AE rupt them as easily as with a style that can be spammed (while they have to blow MoC to do anything).

Oh, is this the part where we pretend every lord push isn't dominated by TWF and Negative Maelstrom? Or where we pretend Shield Swipe can be used more than two or three times before being out of endurance? Or is it the part where we pretend that tanks are hard to kill when they charge a lord room against 30 people and there are only 5 of them because the support stays below where they can't be interrupted? I'm confused as to which bullshit paper DAoC scenario we're entertaining.

*stands on stairs*
*jumps*
*le shield swipe*
all the bombers just got rupted

Wed 2 Jun 2021 6:54 AM by Tyrlaan

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 5:14 AM
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 3:59 AM
People standing on top of each other in chokepoints to defend, that´s kind of the point of PBAE. No they don´t "deserve" to have yet another couple classes to get easy ways to AE rupt them as easily as with a style that can be spammed (while they have to blow MoC to do anything).

Oh, is this the part where we pretend every lord push isn't dominated by TWF and Negative Maelstrom? Or where we pretend Shield Swipe can be used more than two or three times before being out of endurance? Or is it the part where we pretend that tanks are hard to kill when they charge a lord room against 30 people and there are only 5 of them because the support stays below where they can't be interrupted? I'm confused as to which bullshit paper DAoC scenario we're entertaining.

So because there´s ways to AoE rupt you want more? TWF and NM placement (even if under SoS) still exposes somebody who doesn´t have heavy tank HPs and durability (in fact TWF and NM are the effects where you notice the difference between tank and squishie hp bars the most). They also have reuse timer. They can be amnesia´d too.

I can fully see why you want Shield Swipe and I´m still telling you it would be completely unbalanced on Phoenix. We don´t have brittle guards here, we don´t have bodyguard or grapple here to control tanks, we have way less AoE here (and not on every class for a reason), we also can´t raze towers or walls to turn keep/tower fights into open field (to reduce the chokepoints and avoid AoE).

Allowing heavy tanks to spam a style to PBAE damage/rupt, to clear BT on multiple targets at once, to clear pets faster than they can be casted by a squishie (who can be interrupted too unless using MoC) may make heavy tanks (or full tank groups) happy but nobody else.

I mean it´s pretty obvious that you´re confused. What would be the counter to a heavy tank just hitting one to hit them all, clear BT on all, rupt all, deal damage (+ procs, make it a DoT or the Mid shield AE DD proc while we are at it) to all? Guard on everybody? Now add a couple more heavy tanks doing the same...

Wed 2 Jun 2021 8:00 AM by DJ2000

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 1:20 AM
The 2 new Warden high dmg styles are a funny idea

The Warden is currently one of the bigger Puzzles that needs to be solved.
The additional Styles in the Blades and Blunt line may be listed in the rework, but they are basically just blank copies atm, and i doubt they get in as they are right now.
I would even go so far and would remove them entirely, as i don't feel like there is really a "need" to add more styles into the Line.

For example, this is how the Warden Blades line could look like:
- non-trainable defensive Traits get no chains.
- Taunt/detaunt are 1 and 2

This is how i would start out, by giving all positionals and reactionaries an opener:
Parry: 10
Block: 12
Anytimer:
Back: 6
Front: 8
Side: 4

Then give all of them a followup, except the after Block, and an anytimer to complete the kit:
Parry: 10 - 25
Block: 12
Anytimer: 29
Back: 6 - 18
Front: 8 - 21
Side: 4 - 15

With this the Wardens kit is basically complete. Now, with 4 open style spots remaining (34, 39, 44, 50), it's time to add unique/power/flavour to all those that want to spec deeper into the weapon line:
After Enemy Evade: 34
After Enemy Block: 39
Parry: 10 - 25
Block: 12
Anytimer: 29 - 50
Back: 6 - 18
Front: 8 - 21/ -44
Side: 4 - 15
Added After-Enemy-Evade/Block at 34 and 39.
The 44 is an alternative Front followup to the lvl8 opener
50 is a followup to the anytimer.
(The last 2 (44, 50) could be something entirely else, this is just an example)

This took me less than 5 min to write up, and i see no "dire need" to add those extra "Stone shaper/Temper/Breaker" in there (, unless you want to Force Solo into a specific spec).

Wed 2 Jun 2021 8:54 AM by inoeth

how about giving the warden a unique style effect like increased block% or parry% ?
i can also imagine something like a style that consumes 90% endurance but granting a specific target a shot melee immunity or something like that, similar to body guard but not permanent.
or generally speaking how about giving the warden some abilities from the battlemaster ML tree, i think that was the point when warden actually got an interesing class on live and it also synergized well with the endu reduction buff.

that way you can be either a heal based warden or a melee based warden

Wed 2 Jun 2021 9:07 AM by keen

Reaver ASR debuff should be after block not parry imo. ATM it's also after block.

Wed 2 Jun 2021 10:34 AM by DJ2000

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 8:54 AM
1. how about giving the warden a unique style effect like increased block% or parry% ?
2. i can also imagine something like a style that consumes 90% endurance but granting a specific target a shot melee immunity or something like that, similar to body guard but not permanent.
3. or generally speaking how about giving the warden some abilities from the battlemaster ML tree, i think that was the point when warden actually got an interesing class on live and it also synergized well with the endu reduction buff.

4. that way you can be either a heal based warden or a melee based warden

1. Putting them on anytimer i assume? Any examples as to how you imagine this to be implemented or function?
2. uhm...you mean attacking a friendly target to grant him immunity? I am not sure if i fully understand your intent.
3. The thing with BM Styles was the fact that the Warden didn't need to invest any points into the weapon line for it. Here on Phoenix he would have to sacrifice the regrowth spec for it, which also contains the endu reduction Buff to make those Styles viable in a meaningful way. I am not even mentioning the effects of the styles themselves and their impact on the game as a whole, just looking at the accessibility part of it the warden would have to deal with.
4. That's what most people should/could agree on to be the goal for the Warden, but also the Friar.

Wed 2 Jun 2021 11:25 AM by inoeth

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 10:34 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 8:54 AM
1. how about giving the warden a unique style effect like increased block% or parry% ?
2. i can also imagine something like a style that consumes 90% endurance but granting a specific target a shot melee immunity or something like that, similar to body guard but not permanent.
3. or generally speaking how about giving the warden some abilities from the battlemaster ML tree, i think that was the point when warden actually got an interesing class on live and it also synergized well with the endu reduction buff.

4. that way you can be either a heal based warden or a melee based warden

1. Putting them on anytimer i assume? Any examples as to how you imagine this to be implemented or function?
2. uhm...you mean attacking a friendly target to grant him immunity? I am not sure if i fully understand your intent.
3. The thing with BM Styles was the fact that the Warden didn't need to invest any points into the weapon line for it. Here on Phoenix he would have to sacrifice the regrowth spec for it, which also contains the endu reduction Buff to make those Styles viable in a meaningful way. I am not even mentioning the effects of the styles themselves and their impact on the game as a whole, just looking at the accessibility part of it the warden would have to deal with.
4. That's what most people should/could agree on to be the goal for the Warden, but also the Friar.

1. no not nessecarily, could also be a reactionary
2. i thought of a target that is being focused and the warden runs to it, hitting an enemy and granting body guard like this. was that understandable? you mabye have to set a "protect"-similar thing onto you guard target, not sure here but the goal is to be activly in melee fight to be able to body guard to prevent any other action while doing it because body guard would obviously very strong. it also only lasts for maybe 5s and has a recast of 1min or so... i did not fully develop my thoughts on this.
3. at some point the endu reduction was moved to the nurture line. imo the styles did not have a very high impact on the game, maybe in small scale but not in bigger fights, but thats fine since warden is atm very weak in 1v1 situations. also i thought of picking just a few of the BM styles, not all.
4. friars are already at a good state and will also get a very nice bump if the style procs come for them, even though i think that they will be even more op in 1v1

Wed 2 Jun 2021 2:41 PM by Blitze

"Friars are already at a good state and will also get a very nice bump if the style procs come for them, even though i think that they will be even more op in 1v1"

If this is the current iteration of Friar style change

https://playphoenix.online/charplan/styles.html?class=Friar&level=50&realmRank=30&view=skills&s21=18&s25=16&s41=35&s49=50

Then all I see is a nerf in the Friar's two best style areas 1. anytime and 2. snares... and then a buff wrt. to positional damage. Additionally, the positional damage follows on from a sidestun, the prime exploited style here on Phoenix.

So I would say these changes diminish melee Friars in every scenario except group PvE and strafelag exploiting in 1v1s.

The saddest thing is this just turns Friars playstyle to be almost identical to the VW

Wed 2 Jun 2021 3:28 PM by DJ2000

I think the heavy emphasis to implement the Side Chain as the "big damage chain" by the Devs for pretty much every weapon line, is parts to several reasons.
One reason may be, that they want to push/advocate the dynamic/movement based Melee Combat, even in 1v1. Where "movement skill" is key to unlock your potential.
Something that some in the committee/gruenes/Forum/others "like to see", as it was part of the(ir) WoW Arena history. A combination of coordination/timing/tactics/etc. (=being constantly active) to diminish the static and numbers crunching experience, which usually a MMORPG offers.
(I am just assuming here, so don't jump to any funny conclusions.)

If i could have a say in it (which i don't, lol).
I would rather put the emphasis on the Back Chain, to keep the 8man aspect to go for a positional etc.., but also to not devalue positionals as a whole and some other aspects of melee combat.
Let me try to further explain what i mean with one example in a 1v1 situation.
- A short duration stun currently is first and foremost just a purge bait. The effect is still there if it's not purged, but It's actually not meant to accomplish anything else beside that, as the side chain is easy enough to pull off without a stun.
- But in an environment where a side chain can not be freely (ab)used (or you want to go for the Back chain), a short/medium stun would be now way more worth than it was before, as it allows a player to go for a positional that he otherwise would have not been able to use in a 1v1. So it's not only just "bait".

Wed 2 Jun 2021 5:12 PM by Magesty

DJ2000 wrote: I think the heavy emphasis to implement the Side Chain as the "big damage chain" by the Devs for pretty much every weapon line, is parts to several reasons.

I think the heavy emphasis is because the list was almost entirely copy/pasted over from Live. If Live had an emphasis on back styles or frontal styles we would be seeing that instead.

There have been countless posts about the gameplay implications of these styles and the extent of the response we have gotten is that they might try to change some mechanical things to decrease the ease with which side positionals are landed. While it contradicts their stated goals, this type of dev response gives me the impression that the nature of these styles is much more set in stone than we were initially led to believe-- because why would changing mechanics come into the conversation when it would be far easier to just adjust the styles?

Wed 2 Jun 2021 5:19 PM by ulf

go ! do changements !

Wed 2 Jun 2021 5:35 PM by Nephamael

how about giving the warden a unique style effect like increased block% or parry% ?

A fantastic idea!

Warden could get a +blockchance style in high weapon spec (39 or 44) to compensate the lack of available shieldspec and give the after block chain a reason to exist!

(while i know every warden loves to use the after block stun chain it is at a 5%-10% blockchance depending on enemy very low chance to land)

Wed 2 Jun 2021 5:37 PM by DJ2000

@Magesty

Correct me if i am wrong, but the Friar and Reaver versions were not copy&pasted from live. So the intent should be pretty obvious by looking at those 2.

But i am basically agreeing with you.

Let's see how this unfolds.
Barely past the start yet.

Wed 2 Jun 2021 5:44 PM by brandonb

Assassin
Every assassin is going to spec 52 composite weapon and then use styles from CS or LA/DW/CD. The only styles from the primary line are for a ASR or occasional stun. Therefore, I’m only looking at CS vs LA/DW/CD and don’t really care so much about the primary line.

I’m guessing you guys haven’t done a lot of balancing here yet because I see a lot of problems. As an overall theme the concept of a shadowzerker (50 LA spec) just isn’t viable anymore. I really hate that as it is a great flavor of the class. It was the only spec that could get you into darkspire and removing the 3-part rear chain with DD proc just guts that spec. I really don’t see a spec outside of 50CS as the changes/improvements to the CS line completely outshine LA. This is also true for CD and to a lesser extend DW. Basically, everybody is going to spec 50CS.

Critical Strike: Everything about Ripper is HUGE. +20 to-hit. +10 defense. 5 endurance. The highest damage style in the game from what I could see.
Critical Strike: Garrote / Deaths Door is so much better than Doublefrost. Currently Garrote / Achilles Heel are only slightly better than Doublefrost and depending on LA spec Doublefrost could be better. With the new styles using LA for anytime isn't worth it and it will require everyone to go high CS.

Dual Wield styles for Infiltrator are much better than Left Axe styles for SB. In addition, the extra spec points for Infiltrators means they are going to have access to a lot more styles at higher levels than SB or NS.

(DW) Level 21 Penumbra does 207 and (LA) Level 39 Snowsquall does 198. Can’t see the reasoning here. Higher spec styles should do more damage than lower spec styles in the same positional.
LA: The frontal combo of Doubler/Scathing bleed doesn’t come close to Dual Shadows. There is no need for haste debuff or snare on those styles – add a bleed to one or both styles. I get that Dual Shadows is 50 spec and should have more damage, but this is pretty drastic and Infiltrators having the points to get Dual Shadows should play into the calculation here.
LA: Aurora Borealis would be so much better where it is today. It’s the essence of what makes a shadowzerker spec. BSII->Snowsquall->IcyBrillance->AuroraBorealis. Without this combo you can’t do a spec that doesn’t include PA->CD
Assuming Aurora Borealis stays where it is, the damage is terrible. (LA)Level 50 Aurora does 195 while (DW)level 39 Shadow’s Rain does 208? Is it missing a DD proc? All the other level 50 styles do huge damage or have huge effects but Aurora Borealis is very weak.

Edit: After some further looking - a good starting point would be to take LA from Berserker and copy it to SB. The LA styles Aurora Borealis/Snowsquall/IcyBrillance for Berserker are way more in line with the DualWield styles for Infiltrator

^^
Good input IMO.

Wed 2 Jun 2021 7:13 PM by Magesty

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 5:37 PM
@Magesty

Correct me if i am wrong, but the Friar and Reaver versions were not copy&pasted from live. So the intent should be pretty obvious by looking at those 2.

But i am basically agreeing with you.

Let's see how this unfolds.
Barely past the start yet.

That’s why I said almost entirely! I thought the Reaver line was almost exactly the same with an increased levi proc, and the Friar was only missing some of the healing procs? I’ve been relying on the Excidio char planner, which I think is more up to date than other options for Live styles. My point is that there doesn’t appear to be enough of a break from Live design to really draw conclusions about intent as laziness (or “efficiency” as some have put it) simply can’t be ruled out just yet.

But yeah, I think we are mostly in agreement in this thread. I’m hopeful for a good outcome, as this server is the bomb. I just wish I could be sitting comfortably in my optimism.

Thu 3 Jun 2021 12:54 AM by gotwqqd

Magesty wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Jun 2021 5:12 PM
DJ2000 wrote: I think the heavy emphasis to implement the Side Chain as the "big damage chain" by the Devs for pretty much every weapon line, is parts to several reasons.

I think the heavy emphasis is because the list was almost entirely copy/pasted over from Live. If Live had an emphasis on back styles or frontal styles we would be seeing that instead.

There have been countless posts about the gameplay implications of these styles and the extent of the response we have gotten is that they might try to change some mechanical things to decrease the ease with which side positionals are landed. While it contradicts their stated goals, this type of dev response gives me the impression that the nature of these styles is much more set in stone than we were initially led to believe-- because why would changing mechanics come into the conversation when it would be far easier to just adjust the styles?

It’s going to give an even bigger advantage to twitchier players who can land the side chains without actually being on the side

Thu 3 Jun 2021 4:01 AM by Leafus

Why the emphasis for ALL classes on side chains? Melee DPS and light tanks should be chasing. Hence back styles. And by the way. To land the side chain….won’t that pretty much mean your target is already slammed stunned or mezzed? You’re gonna land it on a moving sprinting target? All to land a lousy DD proc that your eldrtich wizard and runemast can triple the damage in one cast? Stand aside melee you’re lousy side DD is getting in the way of my debuffed nuke.

Thu 3 Jun 2021 4:59 AM by ExcretusMaximus

The focus on side styles is because the devs think gameplay skill should start and end with you being able to move correctly and pull off what most people would consider "exploits" to land side styles in a 1v1 fight.

Want proof?

Grue so much as says so in this post: https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/29332-no-swapping-in-weapons-from-your-inventoy-in-a-fight-and-poisons-become-instant-spells-with-a-shared-cooldown-timer?page=2#p161163

Thu 3 Jun 2021 5:11 AM by gotwqqd

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Jun 2021 4:59 AM
The focus on side styles is because the devs think gameplay skill should start and end with you being able to move correctly and pull off what most people would consider "exploits" to land side styles in a 1v1 fight.

Want proof?

Grue so much as says so in this post: https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/29332-no-swapping-in-weapons-from-your-inventoy-in-a-fight-and-poisons-become-instant-spells-with-a-shared-cooldown-timer?page=2#p161163

Start and end…huh

I’d think it may be choosing the right tactical sequences or responses moreover than minor movements

Thu 3 Jun 2021 5:27 AM by ExcretusMaximus

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Jun 2021 5:11 AM
I’d think it may be choosing the right tactical sequences or responses moreover than minor movements

I don't disagree, I'm just offering up an answer to a question people have been asking.

Personally, I don't see the "skill" in exploiting laggy net code and wonky hitboxes, but apparently that's the direction we're being steered in.

Thu 3 Jun 2021 6:09 AM by easytoremember

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Jun 2021 5:27 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Jun 2021 5:11 AM
I’d think it may be choosing the right tactical sequences or responses moreover than minor movements

I don't disagree, I'm just offering up an answer to a question people have been asking.

Personally, I don't see the "skill" in exploiting laggy net code and wonky hitboxes, but apparently that's the direction we're being steered in.

Three things people overlook is 1) their hitting you with a sidestyle succesfully means your Evade/Parry/Block got ignored by a target you were facing and 2) the receiving party has their style queue reset by 'Target is not in view' and 3) you can't queue styles when your target isn't visible so your swing is going to be unstyled unless you sheathe weapons- which also means your swing timer just got artificially lengthened

Thu 3 Jun 2021 6:19 AM by Sepplord

Leafus wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Jun 2021 4:01 AM
Why the emphasis for ALL classes on side chains? Melee DPS and light tanks should be chasing. Hence back styles. And by the way. To land the side chain….won’t that pretty much mean your target is already slammed stunned or mezzed? You’re gonna land it on a moving sprinting target? All to land a lousy DD proc that your eldrtich wizard and runemast can triple the damage in one cast? Stand aside melee you’re lousy side DD is getting in the way of my debuffed nuke.

So you think additional melee dmg per swing in the amount of 33% of dmg per cast of a caster is something melees would forego?

That's basically a free caster additionally in the group when three people are attacking, far from lousy (just using your own numbers...)

Thu 3 Jun 2021 9:19 AM by DJ2000

Don't just condemn the whole thing about "movement skill".
Everything has good and bad parts about it.

Furthermore, this is not even a new thing or a crazy idea or anything.
Other examples of "movement skill" is your typical run-through as a melee when being confronted by a caster using his QC. Don't remember anyone bringing that up as abusive.
Or the times a /stick Melee get lead off a cliff/wall/tower to fall to his death or to low HP, people even call that an "outplay".
Those 2 examples are also "movement skill". It can literally be anything and everything.

It can range from people calling it "smart", all the way to the point of "abuse".
The people that would call one thing "abuse", could be called by other people "smart" too.
There is no clear line that can be drawn, as people/experience/knowledge/beliefs are different.
People calling something "smart", usually means that it is something they not only can fully understand, but can also replicate and make it their own.
On the other hand, people calling something an "abuse", usually means that it is something they do not fully understand and/or cannot replicate themselves; or maybe don't want to.

The first time you fall to your death because you were /stick to a fleeing enemy jumping off a cliff. You realize what happened and either be aware to not let it happen again or do it yourself to someone else next time.
The first time you see a Melee doin' the run-through while you QC CC them, you realize what happened and do it yourself next time as a Melee.
It's called: Learning from experience.

But where do you draw the line. When is it "smart" and when is it "abuse of the net code"?

If you learned how to do apply a side chain out of movement/stick/face/whatever, then it is the same way "Game knowledge/movement skill" as the run-through or other things.
This is where it gets muddy. If some people draw the line before the side chain and others behind it.
The saying goes, "Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."

What is right and wrong? Who can decide?
The answer is easy, It's the Devs.

Thu 3 Jun 2021 10:22 AM by Noashakra

Rocket jumping is an "exploit" that you needed to master if you want to be a good Quake player.
I don't understand why straffing should be seen as bad.

Thu 3 Jun 2021 10:27 AM by evert

I agree that strafe/run-through aren't exploits, but I just want to point out that run-through to avoid QC doesn't work on Phoenix, and plenty of people called it abuse on live.

Thu 3 Jun 2021 10:53 AM by Blitze

if you are being hit by positional backstyles in a 1v1, you are not being attentive enough (or dont have the endurance to briefly sprint backwards) AND the opponent knows how to get it off.
However, there is absolutely no way to avoid getting hit by a sidestyle in a 1v1, regardless of anything, sprinting back or /face wont help.

And i also really don't want more classes (especially my beloved friar) turned into strafe-lag-sidestylers.

Thu 3 Jun 2021 11:49 AM by Sepplord

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Jun 2021 9:19 AM
Other examples of "movement skill" is your typical run-through as a melee when being confronted by a caster using his QC. Don't remember anyone bringing that up as abusive.

Afaik that is fixed on phoenix, and it's probably a good thing, but that is the reason you don't hear about it
If it were possible i am sure there would be TONS of threads how quickcast and MOC are borderline useless

And yes, i believe it is pretty similar to sidestyling targets in front of you. But i also agree with your conclusion, the devs decide what they consider an exploit. Currently they drew the line in between lagabuse to cancel enemy casts, and lagabuse to backstyle a facing target.

Thu 3 Jun 2021 2:51 PM by hopzx

I haven't read the whole thread, but they really are fucking over Nightshades with these changes.

Blades/Thrust have to spec much higher in weapon than ever to get an evade stun, and its now a 2 part.

For thrust, you have to spec 44!

Thu 3 Jun 2021 9:00 PM by Saroi

Blitze wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Jun 2021 10:53 AM
if you are being hit by positional backstyles in a 1v1, you are not being attentive enough (or dont have the endurance to briefly sprint backwards) AND the opponent knows how to get it off.
However, there is absolutely no way to avoid getting hit by a sidestyle in a 1v1, regardless of anything, sprinting back or /face wont help.

And i also really don't want more classes (especially my beloved friar) turned into strafe-lag-sidestylers.

What do you mean turn into? Friar already is. If you don't sidestrafe then that is up to you. I have encountert Friars the last few weeks with my Warrior and most of them always try to sidestrafe like crazy to land the side chain.

Only difference will be that it will be a lot stronger now from Friars with the stun and DD proc.

Fri 4 Jun 2021 3:36 AM by Nephamael

I haven't read the whole thread, but they really are fucking over Nightshades with these changes.

Blades/Thrust have to spec much higher in weapon than ever to get an evade stun, and its now a 2 part.

For thrust, you have to spec 44!

I am sure this will get fixed, right now you would need to be RR13 to spec 44 pierce and 50 cs while getting 24 cd ^^.

Fri 4 Jun 2021 4:20 AM by gotwqqd

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 3:36 AM
I haven't read the whole thread, but they really are fucking over Nightshades with these changes.

Blades/Thrust have to spec much higher in weapon than ever to get an evade stun, and its now a 2 part.

For thrust, you have to spec 44!

I am sure this will get fixed, right now you would need to be RR13 to spec 44 pierce and 50 cs while getting 24 cd ^^.

What is there to balance the nuke and instant DD ns have?
And what is supposed to be justification for infil 2.5?

Fri 4 Jun 2021 5:53 AM by ExcretusMaximus

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 4:20 AM
And what is supposed to be justification for infil 2.5?

Shadowblade extra hitpoints and Nightshade magic.

I'm not saying that they're all equally balanced, but you asked what the justification was "supposed" to be.

Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:28 AM by Hangel

SB more than hp have always the 100% to hit with LH, ns have magic... and infi have more spec point from Daoc born... but they are think with different style.
But I will drop spec point if you put 100% to hit to LH to infi

Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:34 AM by MeatBicycle

Hangel wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:28 AM
SB more than hp have always the 100% to hit with LH, ns have magic... and infi have more spec point from Daoc born... but they are think with different style.
But I will drop spec point if you put 100% to hit to LH to infi

For the fact that the offhand always hits the mainhand also does less damage

Fri 4 Jun 2021 11:13 AM by inoeth

MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:34 AM
Hangel wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:28 AM
SB more than hp have always the 100% to hit with LH, ns have magic... and infi have more spec point from Daoc born... but they are think with different style.
But I will drop spec point if you put 100% to hit to LH to infi

For the fact that the offhand always hits the mainhand also does less damage

and the increased hp is a joke tbh

Fri 4 Jun 2021 12:24 PM by easytoremember

MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:34 AM
Hangel wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:28 AM
SB more than hp have always the 100% to hit with LH, ns have magic... and infi have more spec point from Daoc born... but they are think with different style.
But I will drop spec point if you put 100% to hit to LH to infi

For the fact that the offhand always hits the mainhand also does less damage

Isn't 50 LA mainhand 105 or 120% damage? Low LA penalizes your damage sure and high LA enhances it.

Fri 4 Jun 2021 1:28 PM by CowwoC

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 12:24 PM
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:34 AM
Hangel wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:28 AM
SB more than hp have always the 100% to hit with LH, ns have magic... and infi have more spec point from Daoc born... but they are think with different style.
But I will drop spec point if you put 100% to hit to LH to infi

For the fact that the offhand always hits the mainhand also does less damage
Isn't 50 LA mainhand 105 or 120% damage? Low LA penalizes your damage sure and high LA enhances it.

Nobody will spec high into LA with the planned changes, because full CS will be the way to go. Means Shadowzerker will be erased, so no "advantage" here for SBs.

Fri 4 Jun 2021 2:04 PM by Hangel

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 12:24 PM
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:34 AM
Hangel wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:28 AM
SB more than hp have always the 100% to hit with LH, ns have magic... and infi have more spec point from Daoc born... but they are think with different style.
But I will drop spec point if you put 100% to hit to LH to infi

For the fact that the offhand always hits the mainhand also does less damage
Isn't 50 LA mainhand 105 or 120% damage? Low LA penalizes your damage sure and high LA enhances it.

Exactly increase LA increase the damage... 50 LA for sb only increase the damage

Fri 4 Jun 2021 3:59 PM by Astaa

Can't you just spec viper 5 and vanish like every other sin?

Fri 4 Jun 2021 4:53 PM by inoeth

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 12:24 PM
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:34 AM
Hangel wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:28 AM
SB more than hp have always the 100% to hit with LH, ns have magic... and infi have more spec point from Daoc born... but they are think with different style.
But I will drop spec point if you put 100% to hit to LH to infi

For the fact that the offhand always hits the mainhand also does less damage
Isn't 50 LA mainhand 105 or 120% damage? Low LA penalizes your damage sure and high LA enhances it.

no!
with rr13 you reach 101,6% MH and 89,8% OH
with old RA however you where able to reach 101,8% with both hands at rr13

would be really sad if you couldnt chose to be a shadowzerker though, i do that on my sb and really like it!

on the daoc charplaner there is a version of the LA line that must be somewhere betwene the old one and the one thats currently on live servers. i like that one! @gruenesschaf/uthred consider this! at least this version is still viable to go all in and you dont lose the LA signature move doublefrost!

Fri 4 Jun 2021 7:35 PM by Marneux

Any ETA when is being implemented on server?

Fri 4 Jun 2021 7:54 PM by inoeth

Marneux wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 7:35 PM
Any ETA when is being implemented on server?

or maybe more realistic: when will there be the next iteration?

Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:12 PM by Nephamael

Nobody will spec high into LA with the planned changes, because full CS will be the way to go. Means Shadowzerker will be erased, so no "advantage" here for SBs.

Let's not overreact, i am sure the DEVs want to keep pierce NS, thrust infi and shadowzerker intact and are working hard on making it all work out

Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:35 PM by Egonek

BIG Difference between 1h Damage for the realms

Highest 1h Position dmg by realm (NO DPS CLASSES):

Albion:
Minstrel: lvl 50 Slash: 208
Paladin: lvl 50 slash/crush: 208
Arms: lvl 50 slash/crush: 208

Hibernia:
Champion: lvl 50 Blade 242
Hero: lvl 50 Blade 242

Midgard:
Skald: lvl 44 AXE 310, lvl 50 AXE 316, lvl 15 Sword 286, lvl 50 Sword 291, Hammer 44 310, lvl 48 hammer 314
Warrior: lvl 44 AXE 310, lvl 50 AXE 316, lvl 44 Hammer 310, lvl 15 Sword 286, lvl 50 Sword 291
Thane: lvl 44 AXE 270, lvl 15 Sword 286

Why we have here this BIG difference? And dont forget DPS on Midgard with cele...

Or i understand that wrong??

Sat 5 Jun 2021 7:23 AM by Saroi

Egonek wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jun 2021 10:35 PM
BIG Difference between 1h Damage for the realms

Highest 1h Position dmg by realm (NO DPS CLASSES):

Albion:
Minstrel: lvl 50 Slash: 208
Paladin: lvl 50 slash/crush: 208
Arms: lvl 50 slash/crush: 208

Hibernia:
Champion: lvl 50 Blade 242
Hero: lvl 50 Blade 242

Midgard:
Skald: lvl 44 AXE 310, lvl 50 AXE 316, lvl 15 Sword 286, lvl 50 Sword 291, Hammer 44 310, lvl 48 hammer 314
Warrior: lvl 44 AXE 310, lvl 50 AXE 316, lvl 44 Hammer 310, lvl 15 Sword 286, lvl 50 Sword 291
Thane: lvl 44 AXE 270, lvl 15 Sword 286

Why we have here this BIG difference? And dont forget DPS on Midgard with cele...

Or i understand that wrong??

You are using the numbers of the older charplaner with rr14 and not the newer from the excel table or whatever that was. But let us take it for comparison what you wrote.

For Mid, because they have 1h and 2h in the same line. If you check 2h and Pole on Alb you will find 310/316 damage too.

And what do you mean by highest possible damage? Why do you write for Alb just the level 50 styles, and then for example on Mid lv 44 styles? Why don't you write about uhhmm let us say Amethyst slash? 230 damage, you get it very early at 29? Warrior hammer anytime is 164 and axe is 160? Amethyst is pretty much best or one of the best anytimers atm and stays that way. But as for the 50 ALb style, in slash for example you get the highest possible asr with 34%. Mid is losing its 34%, reducing it to 30%.

Sat 5 Jun 2021 6:52 PM by Saroi

Looking into some styles, I hope there will be some things considered.

1, Some styles have very good defense bonus, especially the anytimer Pierce, Blunt on Hib and Frontstyle on Valewalker. Since we don't have the hit bonus that certain weapons have on live, those defense bonus would be exceptional powerful, especially on spamable anytimers. They should either be reduced to low bonus or completely removed.

2, As for the Fulltanks, they don't really have any buffs here from live. No extra hitpoints(they are like the same then Lighttanks), no resists etc. Because of that, I think they should have higher damage or the extra resists/HP to compensate. Especially Warrior has the lowest on all styles I have seen so far. Thane got the better anytimer from all Vikings, some side or backstyles have higher damage for others like Berserkers, neither of styles is one time were Warrior is on the upper hand(Or I missed one).

On Hib Hero and Champ are pretty much the same except of the lv 50 style on LW, were hero has a bit more damage. Armsman and Paladin 2h are the same. This would also have to be checked, because here on Phoenix you gave Pala 2.5 spec points and a damage table of 21

Sat 5 Jun 2021 6:53 PM by Jodocus_Quak

I for one have been playing less and less, since I understood that Grünesschaf wanted to destroy shadowzerker, a spec I have been playing since RR1 with my SB. I think Grünesschaf is convinced he can do a better job than Mark Jacobs. The only thing that can stop him, imo, is a population drop to under 1k user or even 900 max. Only ppl voting with their feet may convince him that Mark actually did well.

Sat 5 Jun 2021 8:20 PM by Saroi

Jodocus_Quak wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Jun 2021 6:53 PM
I for one have been playing less and less, since I understood that Grünesschaf wanted to destroy shadowzerker, a spec I have been playing since RR1 with my SB. I think Grünesschaf is convinced he can do a better job than Mark Jacobs. The only thing that can stop him, imo, is a population drop to under 1k user or even 900 max. Only ppl voting with their feet may convince him that Mark actually did well.

Shadowzerk won't be destroyed but they lose their Lighttank privileges, which was a Phoenix only buff making Shadowzerk pretty much overbuffed and SB players have been used to this.

Shadowzerk is still playable with getting tools in 2part chains. Icy will have a strong bleed for easy bleed cap and they will receive their sidestun now. It will just be that CS will be probably stronger so it will be reversed to the situation now that cs is playable and Shadowzerk stronger.

Sun 6 Jun 2021 1:13 AM by CowwoC

Saroi wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Jun 2021 8:20 PM
Jodocus_Quak wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Jun 2021 6:53 PM
I for one have been playing less and less, since I understood that Grünesschaf wanted to destroy shadowzerker, a spec I have been playing since RR1 with my SB. I think Grünesschaf is convinced he can do a better job than Mark Jacobs. The only thing that can stop him, imo, is a population drop to under 1k user or even 900 max. Only ppl voting with their feet may convince him that Mark actually did well.

Shadowzerk won't be destroyed but they lose their Lighttank privileges, which was a Phoenix only buff making Shadowzerk pretty much overbuffed and SB players have been used to this.

Shadowzerk is still playable with getting tools in 2part chains. Icy will have a strong bleed for easy bleed cap and they will receive their sidestun now. It will just be that CS will be probably stronger so it will be reversed to the situation now that cs is playable and Shadowzerk stronger.

Have you actually seen the new CS styles? There is no way around it, it's simply too strong and if you don't spec into CS but LA instead, you simply gimp yourself. The current situation is more "choose your preferred play style". Btw it's not just SB's who will be affected, on other classes you can see a similar things going on, where specs will outshine everything else. Devs will work on it i have no doubt, but so far this has to be mentioned if you don't want that everyone runs the same spec, even tho that niche specs are kinda rare now anyway. Having the option to spec something different without being total gimp is still a good thing to keep imho and if I'm not wrong the overhaul was intended to actually open up more options to spec. /shrug

Sun 6 Jun 2021 9:53 AM by Saroi

CowwoC wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Jun 2021 1:13 AM
Have you actually seen the new CS styles? There is no way around it, it's simply too strong and if you don't spec into CS but LA instead, you simply gimp yourself. The current situation is more "choose your preferred play style". Btw it's not just SB's who will be affected, on other classes you can see a similar things going on, where specs will outshine everything else. Devs will work on it i have no doubt, but so far this has to be mentioned if you don't want that everyone runs the same spec, even tho that niche specs are kinda rare now anyway. Having the option to spec something different without being total gimp is still a good thing to keep imho and if I'm not wrong the overhaul was intended to actually open up more options to spec. /shrug

Ofc I have seen them. And they are from live so I have played with them. They are strong but also missing effects from live or they would be even more stronger. ANd like I said, just because they are stronger doesn't mean Shadowzerker is dead. For Shadowzerker being dead would mean LA useless, which as far as I can see is not the case. You got some good styles with 2part Backchain. Icy got a 26 bleed, 2x and you reach bleed cap. Decaying rage gives sidestun now and the style also has high defense bonus.

CS Style do have high damage but they also lose a big part of to hit or defense. Like Garotte only low to hit(-5% hit), Doublefrost gains +5% to hit. Hamstring has no defense bonus anymore(So enemy has a 10% more chance to hit you). It loses it's bleed and gets a weak asr(which I would call nerf) and looks like it will also loses damage because atm, it does more damage than Pincer and Creeping death but with style changes it will do less.

In CS with Leaper and Ripper being very high damage this could lead to SB's equipping 2h for this style to do devastating damage, which is pretty much the go on live. So for some parts 2h SB's could have a comeback and you are not just tied to 1h and have some of the SB advantages.

So yeah you can still play Shadowzerk, go cs with 1h or 1h/2h switch. I see different options indeed.

Mon 7 Jun 2021 3:16 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Is there an ETA on this? Last word on deployment was that it would happen last week.

Mon 7 Jun 2021 3:34 PM by Blitze

I am hoping for the Devs to have another look over the styles so that the original spirit of the lines is kept.. i.e. they stay good at what they were already good at.
e.g.
Pole anytime snare
Slash good anytime
Friar-Staff good anytime
Hammer positional snares
Thrust long duration snare
VW & Reav & Svg -- great positionals with poor anytimes.

Mon 7 Jun 2021 5:54 PM by brandonb

May have already been discussed, I haven't looked over all 43 pages sorry. Is Aurora Borealis proc taken away from the SB but still there for the zerker an oversight or intended? If intended how come? Curious why it's valid to put 2 part chain for that with proc for zerker but not SB? Thanks

Mon 7 Jun 2021 8:58 PM by Bradekes

brandonb wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Jun 2021 5:54 PM
May have already been discussed, I haven't looked over all 43 pages sorry. Is Aurora Borealis proc taken away from the SB but still there for the zerker an oversight or intended? If intended how come? Curious why it's valid to put 2 part chain for that with proc for zerker but not SB? Thanks

Same reason all DW lines for all Assassin have lower growthrates and different effects. It wouldn't be fair for SB to have identical lines as they did have when the other assassins have lite versions of their respective DW lines

Though I don't think infiltrator lvl 50 style is fair tbh should be a follow up with that GR seeings it has higher GR than sb lvl 50 side hit follow up and is just a frontal.

Tue 8 Jun 2021 10:14 AM by inoeth

just took a look again on infiltrator, looking forward to the changes! 50 dw 34 slash 34 thrust spec incoming fuck off CS ;D
infiltrator will be what the SB is atm just stronger lol

Tue 8 Jun 2021 12:55 PM by gotwqqd

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Jun 2021 10:14 AM
just took a look again on infiltrator, looking forward to the changes! 50 dw 34 slash 34 thrust spec incoming fuck off CS ;D
infiltrator will be what the SB is atm just stronger lol

RR7
33 st/env
35 sl/thr
50 dw
15 cs. BS2 chain

RR10
30 st/env
32 sl/thr/cs or adjust down for perf chain
50 dw

Tue 8 Jun 2021 9:41 PM by

Uthred

From Discord #general

On thursday we'll publish the next style update, the result is pretty much the baseline with which we'll go live. There will be another shorter feedback cycle, we hope to get it live early next week.
This update includes some revision on our part and incorporates quite a bit of feedback.

Please note that this represents the new baseline, pretty much just covering the mandatory goals while also attempting to give most classes an actual choice, at least for the basic lines.
Giving lines more uniquenes, more hybrid flavor and similar things will come on a line by line basis over the following weeks.

Wed 9 Jun 2021 8:14 AM by SlowMo

Will there be Free Respecs for testing purposes available?

Is it possible to get Dummys which allow reactionary style testing?

Wed 9 Jun 2021 9:09 AM by Astaa

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jun 2021 8:14 AM
Is it possible to get Dummys which allow reactionary style testing?

Asked before, was a no. Or at least, maybe a good idea, sort of, then forgotten about.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/27503-new-target-dummies#p150510

Wed 9 Jun 2021 3:37 PM by MacesB

Are the upcoming style changes planned to be dropped before the 1v1 arena event on the 18th?

Also: Thanks for keeping it fresh!

Wed 9 Jun 2021 5:13 PM by Bradekes

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jun 2021 8:14 AM
Will there be Free Respecs for testing purposes available?

Is it possible to get Dummys which allow reactionary style testing?

Would be awesome to have 3 dummies for reactionary. One gives you a debuff that actually buffs your evade to 100% for 10s reoccurring, then a different dummy for Parry, and one for block. That way you could consistently get the desired styles without having to really focus.

Wed 9 Jun 2021 6:33 PM by CowwoC

At this point - why isn't there a small test zone with some dummies/ mobs in it where you can test specs for your skills and ra's without spendig stones for it? Is it really needed that people have to depend on respec stones if they simply want to test another spec or check if something is actually worth it to spec into? Would it be broken to enable unlimited respecs in such zone if you still would need stones in all other zones and the respec from the testing zone does not transfer over?

Wed 9 Jun 2021 7:58 PM by

Uthred

Keep calm guys, no one has to pay anything during the testing phase.

As said multiple times before, during the testing phase you will have unlimited skill respecs and we will hand out these wonderful gloves, that will cap any template so that you dont have to build a new template for testing.

Wed 9 Jun 2021 8:32 PM by Magesty

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jun 2021 7:58 PM
Keep calm guys

wonderful gloves

Wow, VW only gloves.

What a surprise.

Vale confirmed devs' golden child. What else is Hib going to get?

Wed 9 Jun 2021 8:48 PM by nono31

Magesty wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jun 2021 8:32 PM
Wow, VW only gloves.

What a surprise.

Vale confirmed devs' golden child. What else is Hib going to get?

It is just an example ...... All classes will have it.

Just breathe mate .....

Wed 9 Jun 2021 9:07 PM by Astaa

nono31 wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jun 2021 8:48 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jun 2021 8:32 PM
Wow, VW only gloves.

What a surprise.

Vale confirmed devs' golden child. What else is Hib going to get?

It is just an example ...... All classes will have it.

Just breathe mate .....

I personally didn't think he needed to add a satire tag, but obviously he did

Wed 9 Jun 2021 9:25 PM by Tashkent

Astaa wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jun 2021 9:07 PM
nono31 wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jun 2021 8:48 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jun 2021 8:32 PM
Wow, VW only gloves.

What a surprise.

Vale confirmed devs' golden child. What else is Hib going to get?

It is just an example ...... All classes will have it.

Just breathe mate .....

I personally didn't think he needed to add a satire tag, but obviously he did

Irony on the interwebs is a dangerous endeavour.

Wed 9 Jun 2021 9:40 PM by easytoremember

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Jun 2021 7:58 PM
Keep calm guys

wonderful gloves

lucky for me my paladin already wears a dress

Wed 9 Jun 2021 9:51 PM by nono31

I didn't get it , my bad lol

Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:35 PM by

Uthred

After the first round of feedback we did more than 300 (mostly) minor changes regarding growth rates, snare durations, damage, etc. We also put in some general rules for Snares and Attack Speed Reductions.

Snares:
Depending on the class, there is now a max duration length for snares.

Full Tanks: 19 sec
Light Tanks: 11 sec
Any other class: 16 sec

If a style line has multiple snares in it, only one style will have the max length, the other will have a reduced length.

Exeptions:
Backsnare for the 3 light tanks (Merc, BM and Zerk) is always 4 sec max, same for Garotte which also has a snare duration of 4 secs. Plus there are very few follow-up reactive snare styles, those got an additional 3 sec added to the class-depending duration.

Attack Speed Reduction:
The duration of ASR is now either 30sec, 21sec or 16 sec depending on the level of the style and/or if it is a reactive or positional style.

You can find the reworked Style Changes here:

https://playphoenix.online/charplan/style_overview_2021-06-10.html

Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:52 PM by Saroi

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:35 PM
Attack Speed Reduction:
The duration of ASR is now either 30sec, 21sec or 16 sec depending on the level of the style and/or if it is a reactive or positional style.

You can find the reworked Style Changes here:

https://playphoenix.online/charplan/style_overview_2021-06-10.html

Are you sure it is the duration? In the charplaner all are 20 seconds. The % of ASR is 30, 21 or 16%

Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:11 PM by Rov

God please do not give valewalker and rangers a frontal snare 🙄

Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:30 PM by evert

You took 2 weeks, didn’t listen to anything that was suggested, and somehow made things worse. Good luck with the server.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:30 PM by DJ2000

Reduced damage values for BS2 (from 1430 to 1340 (typo?)) and PA ( from 1826 to 1602 ), combined with the reduced attack range ... interesting choice.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:33 PM by Saroi

I don't really understand the changes you made for Thane. You are already giving Thane DD procs. Now followup from back hammer(Sledgehammer) gets a damage buff of 42. Being only a little lower than Warrior/Skald but gets the 110 DD proc. Side followup (Demolish) even gets a Bonus of 96 damage, making it way stronger than that of the Warrior/Skald. All this with Thane already having the higher damage on Anytimers, while at the same time you are lowering backstyle on Warrior. Thane will hit very hard, especially with the 40% Energy debuff(From self) or 45% from SM.

I don't see in anyway how Warrior should compete now with a Thane. Thane is far superior.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:35 PM by Saroi

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:30 PM
Reduced damage values for BS2 (from 1430 to 1340 (typo?)) and PA ( from 1826 to 1602 ), combined with the reduced attack range ... interesting choice.

That is something that is needed and that was discussed in the overhaul #1. THe styles are from Live and the PA/Backstab 2 there does more damage than it does now. But here on this server, Enervating poison hits before PA/Backstab, so you lose HP from poison and then get damage. Me as a Warrior is getting 1k damage loss from this.

With the higher damage on PA/Backstab 2 would be even worse and probably in oneshotting casters.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:51 PM by Sethor

Would it be possible that you feature a side-by-side comparison in the styles overview? (https://playphoenix.online/charplan/style_overview_2021-06-10.html)

Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:52 PM by CowwoC

Sethor wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:51 PM
Would it be possible that you feature a side-by-side comparison in the styles overview? (https://playphoenix.online/charplan/style_overview_2021-06-10.html)

Agree, is hard to read and to compare if you have to scroll all day long.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 7:27 PM by DJ2000

Copy and paste them into their own excel sheet (sheet1 and sheet2)
Highlight differences between 2 sheets with conditional formatting

In the worksheet where you want to highlight differences, select all used cells. For this, click the upper left cell of the used range, usually A1, and press Ctrl + Shift + End to extend the selection to the last used cell.

On the Home tab, in the Styles group, click Conditional Formatting > New rule, and pick "Use a formula to determine which cells to fomrat" (this is ussually the last/bottom one) and create a rule with the following formula:

=A1<>Sheet2!A1

Where Sheet2 is the name of the other sheet you are comparing.

As the result, the cells with different values will get highlighted with the selected color.

ezpz

you can make it even fancier, but this should do the trick.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 7:33 PM by Noashakra

So cool you didn't listen and now thrust is a dead line for ministrels.
No change to the VW.
You just changed minor things. I thought you were going to listen to the feedbacks when you postponed...

Thu 10 Jun 2021 8:02 PM by Nephamael

So far the biggest problem with the style changes i see is:

It is a big alb melee buff, as both arms and minst can now peel at cap swingspeed with slash or crush (arms) at 19s/16s (side+followup rear) duration with the same specs they had before.

Where as mid lost some vs the old conquer and hib has to sacrifice parry (hero)/nurture or heal(warden/bard) to reach the same and can not do it with the former viable specs.

So are you planning to upp Warden and Bard specpoints then, or is it simply a intended alb buff - seems weired to me after the last 3 8v8 arenas have been basically alb vs alb with 10% others?

Thu 10 Jun 2021 8:50 PM by borodino1812

Poor Warden....

Thu 10 Jun 2021 8:51 PM by Blitze

Please don’t change Friar staff to the same lag strafe stun playstyle as the VW, please, please, please!.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 8:54 PM by Ceen

As usual a whine fest after a blue post.
Same procedure as every year James.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 9:00 PM by Magesty

Some of the bigger things I was hoping to see change with this iteration have not been touched. I'm happy to see an effort is being made to curtail side style abuse, but there are a few other problems with these changes that are still in place. The core of which I will touch on below:

I'm just going to ignore the fact that, for the umpteenth time, Live has a lot of changes that account for the power distribution we see in the current style lines. This current set, while improved, are not that far from where they started. A class like the Armsman, for example, losing Defender's Rage and not having the benefit of all of the heavy tank changes and a comparatively more powerful slam to make up for it is just laughable. They are going to be reduced to a fraction of their power in solo play, and for what?

What indeed... The only conclusion I can draw that makes sense of these lines in totality is that a conscious decision has been made to balance around stoicism and the impact it has on class selection in 8v8. Classes without stoicism are being given a lot more design space for powerful styles. Just as it was on Live for years, this is poor implementation. Why balance around something like stoicism instead of either removing it or giving it to all melees. Disposing of it in some way allows you to properly balance style lines compared to one another, and thus have them be appropriately powered for all play styles, rather than taking into account something that only increases a class's power in one aspect of the game.

I don't know what else to say that I haven't said already. This is largely more of the same. Vales are going to be flat out busted in solo play, and I just can't see a justification for it out outside of a narrow focus on 8v8 gameplay and the ever looming presence of stoicism.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 9:01 PM by Noashakra

Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 8:54 PM
As usual a whine fest after a blue post.
Same procedure as every year James.

The usual boot lickers are out too

Thu 10 Jun 2021 9:06 PM by Ceen

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 9:01 PM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 8:54 PM
As usual a whine fest after a blue post.
Same procedure as every year James.

The usual boot lickers are out too

For the records I would have sticked to the old styles but still enjoying the QQ.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 9:19 PM by Noashakra

Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 9:06 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 9:01 PM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 8:54 PM
As usual a whine fest after a blue post.
Same procedure as every year James.

The usual boot lickers are out too
For the records I would have sticked to the old styles but still enjoying the QQ.

Most of us are trying to give feedbacks to obvious problems.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 11:32 PM by Hattrick

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 7:33 PM
So cool you didn't listen and now thrust is a dead line for ministrels.
No change to the VW.
You just changed minor things. I thought you were going to listen to the feedbacks when you postponed...

Not sure what you're talking about. Thrust looks like the superior line for minstrels to me. It has an off evade style chain while slash does not. The rear snare is reachable for minsts at 29 points while the slash one is not (barring speccing less than 25 stealth, thus giving up climb) at 39 points. The highest damage anytime style, Liontooth, is almost as high damage as Slash's Amethyst Slash and has a small defense bonus as well whereas Amy Slash does not.

The only thing I see in Slash that appeals to me over Thrust is the frontal chain with ASR style followed up by a decent bleed. Everything else leans in favor of Thrust. Please tell me what your beef is with this because I'm not seeing it.

Thu 10 Jun 2021 11:59 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 11:32 PM
Please tell me what your beef is with this because I'm not seeing it.

My guess: Losing an anytime 27s snare.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 12:20 AM by Hattrick

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 11:59 PM
Hattrick wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 11:32 PM
Please tell me what your beef is with this because I'm not seeing it.

My guess: Losing an anytime 27s snare.

From what? Wyvernfang? If that's what you're referring to, it's not an anytime. It's the 2nd part of a chain that starts with an anytime. That's not a meaningless distinction. It also requires basically punting on stealth completely to get your weapon spec that high. Hardly devastating unless you only 8v8 and are fine with having basically zero stealth and even then, I wouldn't call it devastating as you receive a 16s back snare which you didn't have before.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 3:24 AM by Tulpa

Large Weapons is now a joke. Massive nerf all around. In exchange fore a few bleeds and a rear snare.

This is a link to the comparison to old styles.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H11UtKfssLkZjMTmHo79G7Bg5itW488s_goViRr9QSI/edit?usp=sharing

https://photos.app.goo.gl/35JpytkdSed1Mh7y6

Look some of the other changes are good, i'll give the devs' that. But there are a large number of problems.

The player base that uses LW put alot of effort into addressing this and how to fix it. None of this was taken into account, and no response was given as to why is has to be the way its layed out now.

I have not heard anyone who is really happy with the new LW styles. Most i have heard is people in general support for the change.

I am in support of alot of what is being changed, i think it has added utility to alot of classes where it was not before.

Thing is all LW needed was a rear snare. It did not need to be stripped of everything that made it a fun style to play.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 5:01 AM by Reklewt

To start off, I want to say that I respect the work that's gone into this and I appreciate it.

Philosophically, these changes are really hard to get on board with, for me. For example, my two favorite characters to play are my shadowblade and my hero; both of which are having their archetypal, iconic styles taken away. For the SB, Aurora Borealis chain is gone (this was important for lower rank SBs at this patch level as shadowzerker is basically the only viable spec until you are higher rr). For hero, I run Large Weapon and annihilation is the best part of playing that class.

Furthermore, as it has been said before, VWs will be busted beyond belief because of side style abuse, especially in 1v1s, with these changes.

This last part is just preference, but I think that landing a 3-parter is one of the really rewarding feelings this game offers, and taking those away doesn't feel like a step in the right direction.

Again, I appreciate the work being done here, we just disagree on how to address the game. Also, I will agree with some people here who have mentioned that these changes seem mostly aimed at 8v8 balance, because that's the most prohibitive playstyle (snare lines). I don't feel like this is the right move for the other people on the server.

Thanks for all that you do.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:11 AM by Buorhann

Saroi wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:33 PM
I don't really understand the changes you made for Thane. You are already giving Thane DD procs. Now followup from back hammer(Sledgehammer) gets a damage buff of 42. Being only a little lower than Warrior/Skald but gets the 110 DD proc. Side followup (Demolish) even gets a Bonus of 96 damage, making it way stronger than that of the Warrior/Skald. All this with Thane already having the higher damage on Anytimers, while at the same time you are lowering backstyle on Warrior. Thane will hit very hard, especially with the 40% Energy debuff(From self) or 45% from SM.

I don't see in anyway how Warrior should compete now with a Thane. Thane is far superior.

I haven't really checked into the style changes yet, but keep in mind that the Thane is still on the Seer table. They will hit less in terms of raw damage than the other melee classes in Midgard. The Energy debuff is also a proc, it's not always a guarantee.

This is something that has plagued Paladins, Champions, and Thanes (And to an extent, Wardens) on Live. Giving the Thanes DD procs make sense, but hopefully it's not too much.

(Also keep in mind that Thanes have the lowest of hit points of the melee classes too due to said Seer table)

There are definite pros and cons between the melee classes I'd say in Midgard. My only concern is how the Zerks work out, otherwise just go with Savages.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:39 AM by Ahashver

Its my second post here, sry for my bad english:

Im not sure, if any posts ore suggestions will change your mind ... but : such a lot of work ... for what ?

1. Weapon lines closer to the live server - with a lost of iconic styles and really class difference
2. New melee chararacters with the impossibility to balance all this changes correctly (in some weeks ... ?? ).

Why this actionism ? Sry but sometimes is less more .... same like the toa - toys some month ago.
Well, you have done such a lot of cool things (SI - server !, events, feather, etc) .... but this is not helpful for a better game in my opinion.

Thx and good luck

Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:46 AM by Noashakra

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 11:32 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 7:33 PM
So cool you didn't listen and now thrust is a dead line for ministrels.
No change to the VW.
You just changed minor things. I thought you were going to listen to the feedbacks when you postponed...

Not sure what you're talking about. Thrust looks like the superior line for minstrels to me. It has an off evade style chain while slash does not. The rear snare is reachable for minsts at 29 points while the slash one is not (barring speccing less than 25 stealth, thus giving up climb) at 39 points. The highest damage anytime style, Liontooth, is almost as high damage as Slash's Amethyst Slash and has a small defense bonus as well whereas Amy Slash does not.

The only thing I see in Slash that appeals to me over Thrust is the frontal chain with ASR style followed up by a decent bleed. Everything else leans in favor of Thrust. Please tell me what your beef is with this because I'm not seeing it.

Ministrel in groups will all have 39 in weapons. Atm, the only reason to play thrust is the anytime 2 parts snare and you need 44. Only a handful of ministel have a lot of stealth to play in the stealth zerg.
Slash gives you 2 snares, rear and back, when thrust has only back.
Evade chain, for ministel who has evade 2, great !
Thrust is just dead. So much for "the aim of those changes are to make every lines viable".
They completly killed some weapon lines like LW on hib and thrust on alb.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:41 AM by Hattrick

I wasn't going to reply to this as you seem quite locked in on your mindset, but I figured I'd try to counterpoint anyway.

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:46 AM
Ministrel in groups will all have 39 in weapons. Atm, the only reason to play thrust is the anytime 2 parts snare and you need 44.
So you're saying that right now, there's only one reason to play thrust? That sounds to me like it's already not a viable option if you feel there's only one reason to do it.

Only a handful of ministel have a lot of stealth to play in the stealth zerg.
25 stealth is not "a lot", but it's what you need to climb walls. The ability to climb walls and harass enemy casters is useful in sieges if you're going to run with the BG. That limits you to 37 weapon at best (assuming 50 instrument spec.) Is having climb essential? Nope, but it does make your character more versatile and arguably helpful in sieges instead of just a ram rider.

Slash gives you 2 snares, rear and back, when thrust has only back.
So? Assuming we aren't talking about 1v1 fights, if you can get to the target's side, chances are you can get to their back too. If we are talking about 1v1 fights, thrust has a 30% ASR for its sidestyle (assuming you have 39+ weapon spec). That's better than having snare on both positionals IMO.

Evade chain, for ministel who has evade 2, great !
Slash's only reactionary chain is off block. Do you have more chance to block, or evade?

Thrust is just dead. So much for "the aim of those changes are to make every lines viable".
They completly killed some weapon lines like LW on hib and thrust on alb.
Tell you what, instead of making general statements like this, why don't you tell me what you think is better about Slash now. Please argue for Slash, and not against Thrust.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:50 AM by Tyrlaan

At this point I think they just want to see certain classes buffed by live styles. Cui bono and all that. It doesn´t make any sense otherwise. 2nd attempt at it too.

If they wanted other lines to see use (i.e. Mid Sword/Axe getting snares) they could just have changed them like they did when they added a back snare to Mercs/DW. If they wanted hybrids to get procs, they could have added them. There´s precedent, there have been small changes to styles. That´s little changes which can see small adjustments later on. Without buffing specs and classes which don´t need it. Without removing iconic styles. But instead we get this whole package which just breaks styles for so many builds and buffs a few classes, requiring many more adjustments later on because it basically changes everything for everyone at once. That doesn´t even allow for proper evaluation because all parameters change at once (and that´s before the shift in population in various aspects of RvR we´ll see due to the changes).

No I don´t buy that to make styles match icons is the motivation behind opening this box of pandora. We´ve done well with using the styles we know and didn´t care much about what icon it had. Heck there´s so many ability icons on Phoenix which don´t match the ability. My Crit Shot and Rapid Shot have basic Attack icons and yet I´d rather have it this way than the other way around, with proper icons and doing unstyled melee attacks.

Also it doesn´t accomplish what it promises: more diversity in builds. In fact, it just changes the meta - but there´s gonna be a new meta, a new best spec, nevertheless. Example Flex: live actually had a couple Slash Reavers to get Slam and 50 SR. Phoenix had a couple speccing Slash for the 21 side snare, while clunky, a viable build, with a trade-off. But these changes make Flex the only line to spec for damage/snares and Slash/Crush/Thrust obsolete. What Sword/Axe are in Mid these days.

And much like other changes, these changes are without any regard to balance between classes (why even play a light tank if you can be a hybrid for more damage, ranged damage/rupts and better RAs).

GL with the server.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:30 AM by Noashakra

Lmao, either in 1vs1 or 8vs8, having a side snare and a back snare to peel is vastly supérior to just a backsnare. in a lot of situation, especially when you kite, you run next to a target or arrive on his flank, and you donc want to change your position to back snare and lose time and momentum.

At the moment you have the choice between = side snare 12s and damage (slash) vs anytime 2 style snare 27 and atk speed debuff (thrust)
So it's a question of "do I want the easy to use positional and deal more damage, or the hard to use but long snare and utility of the side atk speed debuff"
Now there is no question slash is 100% the go to spec.

Ministel climbing wall is super situational, it's not a merc (shield and hp). Also, thrust is a line that can be used by paladins and armsman who don't spec in stealth.

I am not locked in my mindset, it's you who have no idea about the subject.

Again, all those changes where brought by the dev with the premise of "some lines are not used at the moment, we make those changes because almost nobody uses sword or axe on mid on tanks"
And they failed at this as far as I can see, they made some spec way better than others... CS > LW, Slash > Thrust, 2H > polearms etc.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:57 AM by Hattrick

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:30 AM
Lmao, either in 1vs1 or 8vs8, having a side snare and a back snare to peel is vastly supérior to just a backsnare. in a lot of situation, especially when you kite, you run next to a target or arrive on his flank, and you donc want to change your position to back snare and lose time and momentum.

I'm sure you have more time on a minstrel than I do as I am just hitting mid 40s on mine. That said, I have plenty of time on other melee characters. I know when you're peeling, you are generally going to be chasing somebody that is chasing one of your casters/healers who are usually already kiting them. That means you are already in a chase position (ie: behind them.) Even if you come at them from the side, it's easy to get to their back. If they have already reached their intended target, again, it is easy to get to their back. You act like that is some kind of impossible task and it isn't. The only hard part about landing back styles in that situation is the narrow cone, not getting in position.

Ministel climbing wall is super situational, it's not a merc (shield and hp).

I wouldn't call it "super" situational and I know minstrels aren't mercs. Obviously you're not going to spearhead a wall climb. I also know though that the more people you can get on the wall, the more likely you are to drive the enemy defenders off of it, so every body that can climb is useful in overwhelming the enemy defense.

Also, thrust is a line that can be used by paladins and armsman who don't spec in stealth.

Now you're moving the goal posts and bringing other classes into this. For the record, I've already railed in this very thread about how they borked Thrust for pallies. I just don't see the same issues for Minstrels as the lines are different for the two classes.

I am not locked in my mindset, it's you who have no idea about the subject.

Me disagreeing with you does not mean I have no idea about the subject. Again I would ask you to defend your position on this without resorting to ad hominem arguments. I mean you kind of did in your first sentence, but from there you just went back to a rant. You're already stated you think having 2 positional snare styles is superior. That's your preference so I won't argue about that, but tell me what else is in Slash that you think makes it completely outshine Thrust (for minstrels only) because I'm frankly not seeing it.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 12:07 PM by Noashakra

I'm sure you have more time on a minstrel than I do as I am just hitting mid 40s on mine. That said, I have plenty of time on other melee characters. I know when you're peeling, you are generally going to be chasing somebody that is chasing one of your casters/healers who are usually already kiting them. That means you are already in a chase position (ie: behind them.) Even if you come at them from the side, it's easy to get to their back. If they have already reached their intended target, again, it is easy to get to their back. You act like that is some kind of impossible task and it isn't. The only hard part about landing back styles in that situation is the narrow cone, not getting in position.

You don't always push, you also back and kite yourself, especially when you are a mage group. Also competent targets will try to show you their side to make you miss your peel. So you are wrong.
Did you ever play 8vs8 8vsX to make statements like this?

Fri 11 Jun 2021 12:30 PM by Hattrick

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jun 2021 12:07 PM
I'm sure you have more time on a minstrel than I do as I am just hitting mid 40s on mine. That said, I have plenty of time on other melee characters. I know when you're peeling, you are generally going to be chasing somebody that is chasing one of your casters/healers who are usually already kiting them. That means you are already in a chase position (ie: behind them.) Even if you come at them from the side, it's easy to get to their back. If they have already reached their intended target, again, it is easy to get to their back. You act like that is some kind of impossible task and it isn't. The only hard part about landing back styles in that situation is the narrow cone, not getting in position.

You don't always push, you also back and kite yourself, especially when you are a mage group. Also competent targets will try to show you their side to make you miss your peel. So you are wrong.
Did you ever play 8vs8 8vsX to make statements like this?

I run mainly in BG or solo on all my characters. That's what I mainly do, but not all I have done. I do think I have come to the crux of our disconnect though, and it's what I kind of suspected all along by your responses.

I'm guessing you mainly 8v8 and you don't think Thrust is useful for that with these changes. That would be fine, except your original post that I replied to said "thrust is dead now for minstrels" with no qualifier that you were talking about 8v8. Lots of minstrels solo, lots run with the BG, some do a bit of everything. For them, I still say Thrust is not dead, it's a completely viable choice.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 12:49 PM by evert

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jun 2021 12:30 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jun 2021 12:07 PM
I'm sure you have more time on a minstrel than I do as I am just hitting mid 40s on mine. That said, I have plenty of time on other melee characters. I know when you're peeling, you are generally going to be chasing somebody that is chasing one of your casters/healers who are usually already kiting them. That means you are already in a chase position (ie: behind them.) Even if you come at them from the side, it's easy to get to their back. If they have already reached their intended target, again, it is easy to get to their back. You act like that is some kind of impossible task and it isn't. The only hard part about landing back styles in that situation is the narrow cone, not getting in position.

You don't always push, you also back and kite yourself, especially when you are a mage group. Also competent targets will try to show you their side to make you miss your peel. So you are wrong.
Did you ever play 8vs8 8vsX to make statements like this?

I run mainly in BG or solo on all my characters. That's what I mainly do, but not all I have done. I do think I have come to the crux of our disconnect though, and it's what I kind of suspected all along by your responses.

I'm guessing you mainly 8v8 and you don't think Thrust is useful for that with these changes. That would be fine, except your original post that I replied to said "thrust is dead now for minstrels" with no qualifier that you were talking about 8v8. Lots of minstrels solo, lots run with the BG, some do a bit of everything. For them, I still say Thrust is not dead, it's a completely viable choice.

Ok, slash will be way better in any 1vX scenario because of the ability to actually use the snare(s) and a better anytimer. If you actually played a minstrel you would know that evade styles (lol) are irrelevant (and its not even a good evade style). Zerg you can spec whatever you want it doesn't make any difference.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 12:50 PM by Noashakra

I play solo AND in group.
I have 2 lone enforcers. Minstrel solo have to kite to DD and manage the mez/pet, to regen life and use FA2. If you stay in melee, you are dead. So again, having two snares to use, rear+back up side, increase drastically your chances to success (because good/decent players will not stand and /stick you, good luck trying to rear snare someone trying to side style you) and make slash the 100% go to spec.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 5:35 PM by Nephamael

--------only relevant for solo/smallmen(/zerg)----------

The following lines lack at least 1 more reactional style: (in order of appearance on the new style chart)

- Slash (after parry/block)

- Polearm (after parry)

- Two Handed (after parry)

- Sword (after parry for: Berserker/Warrior)

- Piercing (after parry for: BM/Hero/Champ)

- Celtic Spear (after parry)

------------------------------

The following lines lack at least 1 more viable reactional style:

- Critical Strike (Achilles Heel (25) needs an effect: stun or asr)

- Flexible (Kingsnake (4) needs an effect: asr or much higher bleed to be viable)

- Axe (Skald Thym's Strength (8) needs an effect: strong bleed)

(the reason is more fun, by more options of the most common defense line)

Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:54 PM by Ceen

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:30 AM
Lmao, either in 1vs1 or 8vs8, having a side snare and a back snare to peel is vastly supérior to just a backsnare. in a lot of situation, especially when you kite, you run next to a target or arrive on his flank, and you donc want to change your position to back snare and lose time and momentum.

At the moment you have the choice between = side snare 12s and damage (slash) vs anytime 2 style snare 27 and atk speed debuff (thrust)
So it's a question of "do I want the easy to use positional and deal more damage, or the hard to use but long snare and utility of the side atk speed debuff"
Now there is no question slash is 100% the go to spec.

Ministel climbing wall is super situational, it's not a merc (shield and hp). Also, thrust is a line that can be used by paladins and armsman who don't spec in stealth.

I am not locked in my mindset, it's you who have no idea about the subject.

Again, all those changes where brought by the dev with the premise of "some lines are not used at the moment, we make those changes because almost nobody uses sword or axe on mid on tanks"
And they failed at this as far as I can see, they made some spec way better than others... CS > LW, Slash > Thrust, 2H > polearms etc.

You can keep climb walls if you spec 29 thrust 21 slash

Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:06 PM by urinolja

Where is patch for Starter?
This snare patch makes more huge gap between Elite vs Starter grp
A good peeler in fg make many melees walking all time in battle.
but now all melees will get snare??
Dying after cant do anything and Dying after do something is big different for action
Plz do Somting for Starter not Elite GVG ballance.
Remove snare from this game or exist only side style like old merc.
Starter makes grp for fun and make them enjoy the fg fighting for action

Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:40 PM by Astaa

I see Mincers being mentioned, they are already super broken outside of 8v8. The argument has been done to death and we are where we are. Nothing will ever change.

Edit, and actually it's a strange kind of broken where they are stupidly OP solo and boring as hell in a zerg.

...and I get that the best way of balancing the game is via 8v8 as it is a constant, but minor changes would improve the game for far more people than the GvG clique, it's not as if Alb 8 mans are struggling.

If someone suggested a new class that has the same armour as a heavy tank, stealth, climb walls, speed, 2 forms of CC (3 with what might as well be anytime melee snare), 2 instant interrupts/DDs, a red con pet and a melee line you would laugh at them.

But it is what it is.

Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:42 PM by Tulpa

Ok so I’m told I am too negative so I stepped out of the forums and channels and took along look at where all the other classes are at, and spent a fair amount of time writing this so please bear with me. It's long but there are some positives.

Minstrels/Bards/Skalds (Well done here)
Bards much improved removing block styles and making evade styles in place. Very very nice

Skald, similar to bard, is in a much better place now with all styles looking usable.

Minstrels I bow to the feedback in the channels and forums, slash is the new thrust for minstrels it seems perhaps this needs a tweak to make both lines viable if that is the purpose of the changes.

Hybrid Tanks (Well done) Dev’s you got a lot of things right, class defining flavour maintained, useful styles, and better chains; hybrids are now in an amazing place and will require only a slight bit of tweaking in terms of DPS, and snare duration (which is oddly better than the light tank classes). Snares duration and DPS tweaks perhaps.

Light tanks (Well done) are also in a good spot although I think it's odd that hybrids have better snares than light tanks. Generally all lines have some good utility, and are well balanced. No class lost its flavour. Berserker was fixed a lot (good work), can't wait to see all the axes out there. Snare duration and ensuring Berk stays at top tier damage due to lack of defence will be important.

Main Tanks (Mostly okay) Nothing is unplayable however LW and Pole Arms have lost a lot of their former flavour (which could have been kept with effort similar to the reaver/VW/savage lines), and a significant amount of utility was given up in place of a rear snare in both pole/lw.

Warrior seems to be in a good place. Sword seems light on snare but it's also higher in DPS so that is a tradeoff. Hammer gets more stuns than axe but less damage/snares. But all three are playable. Good work, nice balance, people can make decisions to play any of the three and be viable.

Armsman The class defining style Polearm gains rear snare at a much lower level in place of the anytime snare. .I think this is a decent trade, but it also loses the hit by style reaction which is what made this style line cool to play. Polearm does get an additional side positional 2nd part stun. 1h and shield are all playable with a large number of points to spare (for crossbow fun) even after 42slam and 28 in parry to hit parry cap with minimal MoParry. 2h has not changed much and retains any time ASR although it is reduced by 2%.

Hero - High defence 1h styles with shield all look ok, and seem to be lackluster on dps which is expected for 1h lines. Celtic Spear lost its parry stun which it needs returned to be equally playable to either 1h or LW (even if its a 2nd part style), its might be short dps on back style chain. (Could put a big ASR on the evade and put stun on parry again). Large weapon loses both reactionary Target Parry/Blocks styles. The one opening positional stun it had is replaced by a 2nd part stun off the rear snare. It has also lost the anytime asr that was another high utility style, along with the front snare replaced by the rear snare (right after the front arc was increased and back arc shrunk, this is an even trade rear is easier to use /stick and spam). LW used to have 2 ways to stun when peeling (target parry’s and annihilation) now it has just one and it's off a 2nd part chain requiring rear (now narrower) positional. The addition of the rear snare and upping some bleeds are not worth the reduced overall utility lost with the deletion of anytime ASR, opening stun, target parrys and blocks style. (Also a big play style and feel change but that is subjective).

Off Tanks

Thane is ok. Axe looks geared toward 2h as the block style is weak and the stun is off parry (see this going 50SC, 44 axe, 23shield, 29 parry), Hammer is defensive with more stuns likely sticks with higher shield spec, and Sword is more DPS and snares could play either high or low shield depending on group or solo. All three playable with 2h’d options for higher DPS.

Paladins are complex. It looks reasonable and could be played without having to /switch 2h/shield now for snares which as a super defensive off tank class makes great sense. It also has access to good 2h DPS if it wants. 2h keeps its anytime asr at 2% reduction and otherwise has similar utility to old styles with both rear and side 2nd part stuns retained.

Champs (1h and shield spec all have decently balanced utility now (but why evade on piece and not block styles when champs get evade 1). Large weapons historically the mainstay style line for champs has been hurt by the changes, in terms of utility. See the hero for some of the Large weapon issues. Add to that a reduction in the 2nd part stun (now 2s shorter at only 7s for champs with a lower delve 260 vs 280 [Typo? or more nerf?] but still at LV 50 spec), and the fact they don’t get the skill points to spec shield for positional opening stuns without giving up either a lot of DPS, or a lot of Valor, another class defining feature, and they are left at the bottom of the off tank pile.

Champs don’t get options like other classes, its 1h or LW not both. They can’t pick axe, sword, or hammer and also pick up a 2h version for dps, nor can we do the same for thrust, slash or crush each with its own little benefits, and unlike Hero’s they don’t have celtic spear as an option. To do DPS the champ must spec LW, and that means not specing a 1h in Hib unlike Mid, and unlike Alb (Pali) we don’t get the extra .5 points. With LW we get one set of styles that has been significantly affected by the changes..

Comparisons between classes are being frowned upon but what other metric is to be used? If the dev’s want to share the logic used to determine these changes as a starting point of discussion it would go a long way. Until then defaulting to what players have been doing for 2 decades is not unreasonable.

Paladin can spec for full 2h dps (39 plus 50 2h) with 49 chants and 31 parry, or massive defence with stuns in weapon line and slam with 50 crush 42shield 27 parry and 49 chants.

Thane can be defensive 50 storm 35 shield 44 hammer 12 parry or full offence 50sc 50axe 27parry, 10 shield for guard 2, engage and numb to bait a purge. Thanes also get the use of 1h and 2h in the same line meaning if they choose to pull out a shield they lose much less dps than champions when they do the same.

Champ LW was always a compromise, it gave up a lot of utility (all the wonderful stuns in shield (slam and side/rear stun and short bait stuns) to get the one single opening rear positional stun at 50. If a champion wants more stuns they sacrifice a lot, either in Valor or DPS (less LW spec) or some of both and likely nearly all parry (if they go for slam), giving up defence while in 2h mode. A class should not need /switch to be viable but this seems where champs are heading now. (Unless it's an assassin I guess then swap away on those poisons).

If the dev’s think champs are overpowered I implore them to find another way to adjust it other than taking away what makes Large Weapon champs great. Be gentle, add rear snare and bump some bleeds, take frontal snare, and any time asr away perhaps, but don’t make the wholesale change proposed. Nerf something elsen, keep annihilation at 50 rear stun but reduce duration, do something other than what is proposed here.

Sat 12 Jun 2021 3:36 AM by Nephamael

Let's face it, with the current changes, even if tweaked, there is more than before, but still close to 0 room for champs in 8v8.

Reasons: Champ's won't be able to 1h cap swing speed peel from 2 positionals + spec enough LW for dmg. - Their dmg in 8v8 has always been much inferior to all other melee options, especially hero and they have less HP.

So they will be balanced for 1v1/smallmen/zerg. - If they are balanced for those contents they could rly use a lot of emphasis on melee brawl abilities = more reactionaries (after enemy parry/block/evade or even a 3rd after parry option) [1h champ never was and never will be truly viable for those contents (i tested this personally), so it has to be LW, to be looked at]

Other than Tulpa i personally think Champion doesn't look all that bad, compared to other classes with this overhaul - some more reactionaries, at best class-signature ones of the classic content, is all it needs.

Sat 12 Jun 2021 7:50 AM by Ceen

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sat 12 Jun 2021 3:36 AM
Let's face it, with the current changes, even if tweaked, there is more than before, but still close to 0 room for champs in 8v8.

Reasons: Champ's won't be able to 1h cap swing speed peel from 2 positionals + spec enough LW for dmg. - Their dmg in 8v8 has always been much inferior to all other melee options, especially hero and they have less HP.

Ehm spec 10 blades 12 pierce and you got both?
Or 21 pierce spec?

Sat 12 Jun 2021 8:57 AM by Tulpa

Ceen wrote: ↑
Sat 12 Jun 2021 7:50 AM
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sat 12 Jun 2021 3:36 AM
Let's face it, with the current changes, even if tweaked, there is more than before, but still close to 0 room for champs in 8v8.

Reasons: Champ's won't be able to 1h cap swing speed peel from 2 positionals + spec enough LW for dmg. - Their dmg in 8v8 has always been much inferior to all other melee options, especially hero and they have less HP.
Ehm spec 10 blades 12 pierce and you got both?
Or 21 pierce spec?

and now your gimped with not enough points for critical LW styles and or valor and or defence. There is literally no room for a spec like that. Champs have 0 spare points.

I'll be hard pressed to cap swing with the CC breaking 4.0 aoe LW sword and that's at RR9L3... talk about useless.... (good for points in the zerg though LOL).

this whole change was to make more classes useable and they have really done a number on the champ... No one who plays champ for real needed a rear snare.... side was enough we have skills.... If we got an 8v8 group it was cause we are an exemplary player or very high RR or both. This will not change one bit and frankly I don't think most champs even care about 8v8. We all made these toons knowing they were not viable for Meta Groups.

Its just a class crushing nerf to try and fit it into 8v8 that won't work, and at the same time will ruin the class feel.

People can say it is not all day long, but until someone shows me how its not a Massive Nerf its just words. Give me some counter points to the above trades offs as I laid it out. There is nothing fair in the trade offs at the end.

Even the follow up stun is nerfed to 7 seconds and less DPS than the hero, and we are already on a lower table.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright their frail deeds might have danced, and you, my Champion, there on the sad height, curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray. I will not going to gently into that good night and I will rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Sat 12 Jun 2021 10:10 AM by DJ2000

Stop your melodrama.

This is a work in progress.
You can't judge a cake if it wasn't even in the oven. Champion flavour-changes are not even "in" yet.

Give feedback on the current revision and wait till a later stage.

Sat 12 Jun 2021 11:02 AM by Tashkent

Lancer could do with a small bleed like similar styles on the counterparts. What is the reasoning behind the low style damage of spear styles vs sword styles?

Sat 12 Jun 2021 11:16 AM by Jodocus_Quak

This reminds me of Uthgard2: Everybody saw the train going off the cliff, nobody acted and just moved on. It was an unnecessary end back then as it is now. In the case of Uthgard2, it was not adding quality of life changes for busy ppl who couldnt play games like they used to 15 years ago. The Uthgard2 devs wanted their "pure" DAoC.

In the case at hand, its basically creating a new game by turning everything upside down, when ppl still play DAoC, because they like the system that was created by Mythic Entertainment back in the day. The quality of life changes here are great and added aspects that Uthgard2 were missing. In this regard, Phoenix was the next stage that Uthgard2 wasnt able to reach. But these style changes go way way beyond making DAoC ready for 2021.

I havent logged in in over a week and reactivated my WoW account for TBC. Once ppl are gone, they wont come back easily.

Sat 12 Jun 2021 11:54 AM by Noashakra

I also have a question, will we have a race/stat respec? Because some of my toons have race/stats for thrust.
Thrust was the reason I took sarasin and invested 10 in dex. Do you have the intention to provide that?

Sat 12 Jun 2021 12:10 PM by monkeygodbob

Couldn't just leave defenders rage alone?

Two handed is by far the superior choice in every aspect now, if you want to solo it is the only choice.

Sat 12 Jun 2021 12:50 PM by Xrystofer

There's a huge disparity between Celtic spear and other similar styles.

Tracking spear 173

Phalanx 195 -> Defender's Revenge 274 9 sec Stun
Glacial Movement 195 -> Tyr's Fury 310 Haste Debuff, 30%
Doubler 208 -> Sun and Moon 310 7 sec stun
Onslaught 195 -> Two Moons 274 9 sec stun

Most classes get some nice utility as a back or side snare follow-up, either stun or haste debuff. Hero gets bleeding. The only redeeming value of Celtic spear is that the side style has a growth rate of 239. However, giving up decent back snare damage, utility (in the form of a stun or Haste Debuff), and a decent follow-up is not worth the trade-off.

My suggestion is:

Tracking spear 195 -> Follow up 274 haste debuff 30%
Dragon Talon 208 -> Cuchulain's Revenge 310 Bleeding, 32

Black Widow also needs to have its damage increased from 89 to 150.

Black Widow 151 -> Sidewinder 195 haste debuff

Sat 12 Jun 2021 2:33 PM by lurker

Currently need race respecs and new templates/weapons for so many different toons. This is going to prohibitively expensive for me time wise to farm for it all.

QQ I know. Serves me right for committing to thrust/Saracen on so many toons.

Sat 12 Jun 2021 6:06 PM by Tulpa

Hib Pierce styles for classes with only Evade I (champ/hero) should be off parry instead, like was done with Alb thrust for merc/arms/pali styles.
No other weapon line on a class with Evade I has the critical stun style locked behind evade.

Yes some other classes have evade styles and only Evade I, but they are just added damage not as critical as stun.

Sat 12 Jun 2021 8:48 PM by Nephamael

Hib Pierce styles for classes with only Evade I (champ/hero) should be off parry instead, like was done with Alb thrust for merc/arms/pali styles.
No other weapon line on a class with Evade I has the critical stun style locked behind evade.

Yes some other classes have evade styles and only Evade I, but they are just added damage not as critical as stun.

Celtic Spear has the same issue with the followup stun sitting in the evade chain.
It would be awesome to move that to a alternative after parry followup. (or just remove the after evade followup and put it as the 2nd option after parry followup)

Sun 13 Jun 2021 6:12 AM by Tyrlaan

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sat 12 Jun 2021 10:10 AM
Stop your melodrama.

This is a work in progress.
You can't judge a cake if it wasn't even in the oven. Champion flavour-changes are not even "in" yet.

Give feedback on the current revision and wait till a later stage.

Most of the time, if changes move to a wrong direction from the start it would have been better to not change at all. Walking down a wrong way, you´ll have to return AND walk the other way.

I work with what´s on the table. Promises don´t persuade me. I´m not clinging to hope that in some future some of the mistakes made now (!) are corrected. Because then it would have been better to not make them at all, and who´s to tell if future doesn´t hold just more of the same.

This is turning the game upside down, it is shaking the very essence of what constitutes melee classes and why people picked some of them to play. It´s like shuffling spell lines people got used to. Cui bono? Pay attention to what´s in the first version and not re-considered even after feedback and you know why these changes are made in the first place

I´m pretty sure I´ll not be the only one to notice and draw conclusions. People have fine senses for who´s to come out as a winner and who´s not with these changes.

Sun 13 Jun 2021 12:46 PM by DJ2000

There are changes i don't like either. i did point them out and gave out my feedback, for example the Polearms changes, and even suggested changes to the line or the approach (among other things) as well.

Everyone can judge the Devs every decision. Everyone is free to like them or not. Furthermore, everyone can call out things he likes or dislikes.
But at a certain point you have to accept some things:
1. This is not your/mine vision of DaoC. QQ about everything that doesn't fit in your/mine version is pointless.
2. Nonsensical QQ over the same things over and over again will achieve the exact opposite of the intent. It gets ignored after a while.
3. Calling doom upon the server after every change (OF/RA/etc.) gets tiresome after a while. Actually, it has no meaning anyway, as the server was never meant to last forever anyway.
4. If the direction of a server isn't to your liking, then there are always the options to leave, or to compromise and stay. You don't have to accept everything, but you have to accept that you can't change any- or everything.
5. In the first place, the Devs didn't create/open this server to amuse me/you/anyone beside themselves. It was an entirely intrinsic motivation to do so. Players are needed to keep the Server alive, yes. And the joy of having players playing your creation is certainly a thing, but it is not their ulterior motive or Goal, but a condition to keep their work/passion relevant to continue their commitment.
6. Eventually Time, Work, Passion, Motivation, Investment, Expenditures will be a factor. Until then, enjoy your stay or choose to do not. It's up to everyone to decide for themselves.

This, is a style overhaul. They laid out the approach. They announced the desired/possible goal/outcome.
There are windows for player feedback provided by them. There will be several revisions, and also a backup/fallback, if things don't work out. It is not an overnight change.

Is this change really needed or not? Who is to decide? Are you the one to decide if it is? Maybe it doesn't matter who can decide or if it is even needed or not?
Maybe they are doing it for fun? Because they are curious? They are plain just interested in doing it from a technical standpoint? Maybe they are bored with the current status? Or maybe they just don't like how it is currently?
Over 1000s of reasons why someone wants to change/build/cut/plant/wreck something that belongs to them. But the most relevant one is this: Because they can.

Whatever, feel free to be Doom Apostle Nr. 2164.

Sun 13 Jun 2021 11:57 PM by Tyrlaan

"Because they can" is neither a good reason nor a good argument. Look at this thread, basically everybody seems to have issues with the style changes to many classes. And all you´re telling me is suck it up or that this is just part 1 of many more to come. In reality, this change to everything, opening this can of worms, breaking so many styles people got used to or which are iconic to a class, is what is creating the need for many more changes in the first place. So: Why? I question the motivation why somebody would so vehemently try to change all styles at once/introduce live styles even risking the health of the server.

Everything you listed are non-arguments. Of course it´s their server (and will stay their server much like Live, Genesis or Uthgard still are the servers of their respective admins), of course they can do whatever they want (that doesn´t mean they have to), of course I can choose to stay or leave. But that´s all unobjective and no argument in this discussion.

And I´ll leave it at that:

https://unixgeek.com/phoenix.html

Check the graph or scroll down to server population health.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:55 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Quit whining and accept it, or leave.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 2:09 AM by Nephamael

In reality, this change to everything, opening this can of worms, breaking so many styles people got used to or which are iconic to a class, is what is creating the need for many more changes in the first place. So: Why?

In fact a style overhaul was needed for several speclines, to make them viable for 8v8 or at all. (Examples: Sword, Axe, Blunt, LW, CD)

The major inherent problem of the current overhaul is deleting tons of

iconic

styles, mostly for solo/small players.

Now instead of joining the Doomsayers there is still a huge opening right now, to simply fix it, by adding every possible

iconic

style back into the overhaul.

I believe this can be done, without altering the obvious aims of the overhaul (no 1 style reactionary or positional stuns, more variety of positionals).

There are tons of styles noone will ever use that can become the classic

iconic

styles that fit into the new concept.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:20 AM by Tyrlaan

There are tons of styles noone ever used that could have become the styles with the effects missing in certain style lines. While barely changing the styles people did use.

There, fixed it for you.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:26 AM by Ceen

I was happy with the old styles. If you play midgard you play hammer. Whats the deal to be forced in one working spec line?
Will be the same ish with the new styles anyway.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:30 AM by Frug

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Sun 13 Jun 2021 11:57 PM
And I´ll leave it at that:

https://unixgeek.com/phoenix.html

Check the graph or scroll down to server population health.

I'm the author of that site, and just so everyone knows that's a graph of the linear regression of population of the last 30 days. I've been pondering making it longer term since with the "player driven special events" thing happening periodically the "health" graph feels too sensitive (to me) to those events; both the population spikes when they happen, and the reversion to the mean decay when they're over.

Too, it's summer in the northern hemisphere. MMORPGs tend to have a summer slump.

Not saying anything you mentioned isn't true, just trying to provide context.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:48 AM by evert

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:55 AM
Quit whining and accept it, or leave.

Stop giving feedback in the feedback thread! It's bad!

You would be defending the GMs with this same tired line if they decided to go to patch 1.26 and start charging money, don't know what you get out of it.

Anyway I don't have any interest in playtesting pointless unbalanced changes, especially given the amazing responses to all the feedback given

, so I will be taking your advice.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:53 AM by inoeth

evert wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:48 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:55 AM
Quit whining and accept it, or leave.

Stop giving feedback in the feedback thread! It's bad!

You would be defending the GMs with this same tired line if they decided to go to patch 1.26 and start charging money, don't know what you get out of it.

Anyway I don't have any interest in playtesting pointless unbalanced changes, especially given the amazing responses to all the feedback given , so I will be taking your advice.

can i have your stuff?

Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:56 AM by evert

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:53 AM
evert wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:48 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:55 AM
Quit whining and accept it, or leave.

Stop giving feedback in the feedback thread! It's bad!

You would be defending the GMs with this same tired line if they decided to go to patch 1.26 and start charging money, don't know what you get out of it.

Anyway I don't have any interest in playtesting pointless unbalanced changes, especially given the amazing responses to all the feedback given , so I will be taking your advice.

can i have your stuff?

No, I might come back in 6 months once beta 2 is over.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:58 AM by Sepplord

have we really come full cycle back to the "why" argument?
I must say i have been quite dissapointed often with changes in the past and how they changed what i liked, but lets be realistic. Appealing ONLY to the current population will mean the server will die.

I always snorted at the notion that the server has to attract new players. Lol...new players in a twenty year old game... But the thing is, if there is no influx of new players, then the server has no chance. And something like style-icons showing wrong conditions for styles is something that a new player might dislike and paint the whole server in the wrong picture (if they can't even fix some icons, how good will other stuff in endgame be done?).

For established players having fun the style overhaul will not be then end of times. period.
If you quit because of a stylechange not going the way you want, then you are on the verge of quitting anyways and are just looking for a final straw. If not now, you will be gone in a few weeks/months anyways

Staff is putting in immense work to rework the new-player experience. The Wiki is being built, the styles are getting "fixed", PvE is getting revamped. All is pointing towards an organized effort to make the server survive long term.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 3:12 PM by Noashakra

evert wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:48 AM
Stop giving feedback in the feedback thread! It's bad!

You would be defending the GMs with this same tired line if they decided to go to patch 1.26 and start charging money, don't know what you get out of it.

Anyway I don't have any interest in playtesting pointless unbalanced changes, especially given the amazing responses to all the feedback given , so I will be taking your advice.

It's whining only when the others do it

Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:23 PM by whitewolf253

I for one like what I see. I personally liked when Live updated the styles and enjoyed the extra flavor it brought to anemic classes of the time (like the Thane). Midgard was in bad shape and it was garbage that 99% of players were forced into running hammer if they wanted to be worth anything in a fight. Sure it'll be expensive but I started buying new MP weapons 2 weeks ago in prep for what was coming. Currently run a hammer skald, he won't be hammer anymore. Currently have a hammer warrior, he won't be hammer anymore, my hammer/la zerker is dropping the hammer too. My thane is keeping the hammer, but I'm trying some vastly different specs on him now. On my Hunter I'm super torn between spear and sword at this point (and I think that is a good thing). On midgard I'm not seeing any reason for doom and gloom, I see a lot of positive changes.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:35 PM by Reklewt

whitewolf253 wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:23 PM
I for one like what I see. I personally liked when Live updated the styles and enjoyed the extra flavor it brought to anemic classes of the time (like the Thane). Midgard was in bad shape and it was garbage that 99% of players were forced into running hammer if they wanted to be worth anything in a fight. Sure it'll be expensive but I started buying new MP weapons 2 weeks ago in prep for what was coming. Currently run a hammer skald, he won't be hammer anymore. Currently have a hammer warrior, he won't be hammer anymore, my hammer/la zerker is dropping the hammer too. My thane is keeping the hammer, but I'm trying some vastly different specs on him now. On my Hunter I'm super torn between spear and sword at this point (and I think that is a good thing). On midgard I'm not seeing any reason for doom and gloom, I see a lot of positive changes.

I agree that Midgard's changes are looking good. I'm not a fan of Large Weapon and Celtic Spear changes on Hib, and I'm really sad to see 3-part chains go, especially AB on Shadowblade. Not only is it an equalizer for low RR Shadowblades, it's also just an iconic part of the Shadowblade that makes it unique, especially considering that 2H is not viable on this server for them.

I think some changes can be good. I think that, naturally, this is just going to create a new meta. Maybe it will be slightly more tolerant to spec variance, but probably not by a large margin. For me, losing iconic styles that make some of my melee classes fun (looking at you, Annihilation) it's really tough to be excited about these changes.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 7:42 PM by whitewolf253

One thing that will be nice is going out into combat and seeing a plethora of weapons hardly ever seen. Maybe the meta will shift to warriors with a specific weapon, while a skald takes this other one most of the time. To me that is still adding flavor as at least it's not all of the exact same thing. Another thing I think a lot of people are missing is the different damage tables for the various classes still remain (I'm pretty sure anyways). I'm sure it's going to take some fine tuning, that's part of the process.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:47 PM by Forlornhope

I'll be running a 39 blunt/38 nurt/33 reg/16 parry warden once this goes live, I am excited to see if it will actually make a battle warden viable in some way. I'm going blunt because the 6 second stun in blades is off of the block follow up, and since I can't spec shield or MoB I feel like I won't ever get that off.

Tbh I feel like the changes they're doing to warden would balance them out with what we currently have and make them viable now.. With the other stuff they're releasing with the style changes I have a feeling it's still going to fall short in most situations without blowing basically all active RA's in a 1v1 against pretty much anyone who's not limited to using a 2h weapon.

Will be running Galla dex/qui debuff mace/a galla heal mace/and an MP lt'er for sure. Not sure about getting a DA proc weapon or using a charge from my bag. I'll need a dd charge for a rupt so I'll probably end up running a DA weapon as well.

Mon 14 Jun 2021 10:13 PM by Bradekes

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:47 PM
I'll be running a 39 blunt/38 nurt/33 reg/16 parry warden once this goes live, I am excited to see if it will actually make a battle warden viable in some way. I'm going blunt because the 6 second stun in blades is off of the block follow up, and since I can't spec shield or MoB I feel like I won't ever get that off.

Tbh I feel like the changes they're doing to warden would balance them out with what we currently have and make them viable now.. With the other stuff they're releasing with the style changes I have a feeling it's still going to fall short in most situations without blowing basically all active RA's in a 1v1 against pretty much anyone who's not limited to using a 2h weapon.

Will be running Galla dex/qui debuff mace/a galla heal mace/and an MP lt'er for sure. Not sure about getting a DA proc weapon or using a charge from my bag. I'll need a dd charge for a rupt so I'll probably end up running a DA weapon as well.

I wouldn't go blunt. The high delve style has 50endo use and -5 to hit it looks really bad. Blades might be worth with spectrum blade lvl 44.

Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:28 AM by Tulpa

Reklewt wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:35 PM
I agree that Midgard's changes are looking good. I'm not a fan of Large Weapon and Celtic Spear changes on Hib, and I'm really sad to see 3-part chains go, especially AB on Shadowblade. Not only is it an equalizer for low RR Shadowblades, it's also just an iconic part of the Shadowblade that makes it unique, especially considering that 2H is not viable on this server for them.

I think some changes can be good. I think that, naturally, this is just going to create a new meta. Maybe it will be slightly more tolerant to spec variance, but probably not by a large margin. For me, losing iconic styles that make some of my melee classes fun (looking at you, Annihilation) it's really tough to be excited about these changes.

Midguard is in a great place now.

Hib LW and spear as proposed are still very broken.

#1 problem with LW is the removal of reactional (target parry/block) in favour of too many redundant styles. Who needs 2 front openers and 2 parry openers? Just make the two follow ups options off the one and give back the flavour styles.

#2 Make annihilation its own style not a follow up. The argument against this is that its too OP is silly, but the VW retains both of theirs (doesn't even trade one of them for the 2 snares its given) and Friar gets given one!

Spear 100% needs parry reaction stun, I just looked and did they up the damage on some spear styles?

Alb polearms no reason to take it over 2h now...

Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:29 AM by Tulpa

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Jun 2021 10:13 PM
I wouldn't go blunt. The high delve style has 50endo use and -5 to hit it looks really bad. Blades might be worth with spectrum blade lvl 44.

Yeah but wardens have access to an endo proc hammer and a regen chant for endo. TWIST IT BABY...

Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:56 AM by Bradekes

Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:29 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Jun 2021 10:13 PM
I wouldn't go blunt. The high delve style has 50endo use and -5 to hit it looks really bad. Blades might be worth with spectrum blade lvl 44.

Yeah but wardens have access to an endo proc hammer and a regen chant for endo. TWIST IT BABY...

Most of the new styles have crazy defense + meaning a -to hit will really be bad. Sword has a much better +hit style with higher growth rate. Warden needs dd proc weapon to really take advantage of their high swing speed vs extra endo.

Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:14 AM by Tulpa

My plan for warden is to DA, DOT, DOT, Life tap, and then endo hammer if I low on endo.

Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:36 AM by Bradekes

Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:14 AM
My plan for warden is to DA, DOT, DOT, Life tap, and then endo hammer if I low on endo.

Yeah I guess so. The anytime on blunt is better I guess. Blades has haste debuff which I think is way better as reducing attack speed of enemy makes your bubble more effective.

Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:35 AM by Forlornhope

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:36 AM
Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:14 AM
My plan for warden is to DA, DOT, DOT, Life tap, and then endo hammer if I low on endo.

Yeah I guess so. The anytime on blunt is better I guess. Blades has haste debuff which I think is way better as reducing attack speed of enemy makes your bubble more effective.

There's a 30% ASR off the level 39 blunt parry style and a lower one at level 15 if you only want to go 32 blunt

Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:46 AM by Forlornhope

Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:14 AM
My plan for warden is to DA, DOT, DOT, Life tap, and then endo hammer if I low on endo.

This is a good plan, I didn't realize there was that endo hammer so thanks for that. I think that the dex/qui debuff+ASR style's going to be crucial for making that pbt as effective as possible against anything that can use dual wield/1h weapons to at. After that, it's pretty much going to be trial and error to find the best weapon rotation possible.

I can honestly see things like end costs being some of the things they'd adjust early on, so that end hammer may not even be necessary, since blunt's the best option to go to get a decent anytime chain without specing 44 blade. Will comment back here and let you know the procs/combos I've found to work and against what targets. Happy hunting

Tue 15 Jun 2021 7:38 AM by Ceen

I agree its really important to focus the balance on 1vs1 warden.

Tue 15 Jun 2021 7:41 AM by labra

I'm still pondering wether blade or blunt is best for warden. I wait until devs tell more about special styles is those lines. On live there are strong proc on them that could be op here. Let's see is the style remains as if (no proc) or if devs add some procs.

Same for the friar staff line, most of procs aren't here (yet?)

Tue 15 Jun 2021 8:24 AM by inoeth

labra wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 7:41 AM
I'm still pondering wether blade or blunt is best for warden. I wait until devs tell more about special styles is those lines. On live there are strong proc on them that could be op here. Let's see is the style remains as if (no proc) or if devs add some procs.

Same for the friar staff line, most of procs aren't here (yet?)

i doubt these procs will come, those were mainly the reason because the first attemt to style overhaul was canceled... too many ppl bitched about hibernia being op then.

it is indeed a really hard decision here, blunt got the high dmg anytimer in lower lvl but blade got the dq debuff which is essential, also blades offers after block bleed and a 6s stun follow up
so personally i would go for 44 blades 45 nurt 19 parry, on paper that looks pretty tanky and somewhat good dmg

Tue 15 Jun 2021 8:25 AM by Irkeno

Ceen wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 7:38 AM
I agree its really important to focus the balance on 1vs1 warden.

😂 Occasionally i’ve thought you were a chump with some of your PoVs but this is funny and under appreciated, gg 👍

Tue 15 Jun 2021 9:56 AM by labra

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 8:24 AM
i doubt these procs will come, those were mainly the reason because the first attemt to style overhaul was canceled... too many ppl bitched about hibernia being op then.

it is indeed a really hard decision here, blunt got the high dmg anytimer in lower lvl but blade got the dq debuff which is essential, also blades offers after block bleed and a 6s stun follow up
so personally i would go for 44 blades 45 nurt 19 parry, on paper that looks pretty tanky and somewhat good dmg

I doubt too but there could be let's say a small heal proc (or small hot) on blunt and a dd or a debuff on the blade one.
That's not really the place to discuss specs but I agree 44 blade is nice but maybe a better Regrowth pour get some end reduction

Tue 15 Jun 2021 11:53 AM by inoeth

labra wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 9:56 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 8:24 AM
i doubt these procs will come, those were mainly the reason because the first attemt to style overhaul was canceled... too many ppl bitched about hibernia being op then.

it is indeed a really hard decision here, blunt got the high dmg anytimer in lower lvl but blade got the dq debuff which is essential, also blades offers after block bleed and a 6s stun follow up
so personally i would go for 44 blades 45 nurt 19 parry, on paper that looks pretty tanky and somewhat good dmg

I doubt too but there could be let's say a small heal proc (or small hot) on blunt and a dd or a debuff on the blade one.
That's not really the place to discuss specs but I agree 44 blade is nice but maybe a better Regrowth pour get some end reduction

tbh i dont see the point of endu reduction since everyone has perma endu 4 ... maybe if you can spam it or the value is something like 50%+
but lets see what dev are going to do with the "place holder" styles, mabye blunt actually outperforms at some point

Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:23 PM by Forlornhope

Ceen wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 7:38 AM
I agree its really important to focus the balance on 1vs1 warden.

Considering the point of the style changes is to make other lines and things viable, I think talking about making warden something other than a resist/secondary heal/snare bot is a perfectly reasonable thing to discuss and expect out of these changes.

Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:44 PM by Forlornhope

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 8:24 AM
labra wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Jun 2021 7:41 AM
I'm still pondering wether blade or blunt is best for warden. I wait until devs tell more about special styles is those lines. On live there are strong proc on them that could be op here. Let's see is the style remains as if (no proc) or if devs add some procs.

Same for the friar staff line, most of procs aren't here (yet?)

i doubt these procs will come, those were mainly the reason because the first attemt to style overhaul was canceled... too many ppl bitched about hibernia being op then.

it is indeed a really hard decision here, blunt got the high dmg anytimer in lower lvl but blade got the dq debuff which is essential, also blades offers after block bleed and a 6s stun follow up
so personally i would go for 44 blades 45 nurt 19 parry, on paper that looks pretty tanky and somewhat good dmg

Well Blunt's also got a dex/qui debuff gala weapon. And that six second block style does look good on paper. But then you've got to think, it's a block style followup on a class that can't train in shield or mastery of blocking. So the odds of actually getting that style off are nowhere near as high as people are thinking. Now, if they were to switch that to parry chain and lower the good anytimer in blade then I think it would be the way to go.

I'm just going to try blunt first, all I need to do to switch back to blade if that ends up being the way is re sc one piece of armor, so I'm cool being a guinea pig tbh

Tue 15 Jun 2021 5:42 PM by Bradekes

IMO the endo use is way too high for the special warden only styles. The endo use on live is 50 and 75 because they have effects that buff dmg and lower target ABS. The endo use should be halved here or more in line with friar styles that actually get DD and are only 15 & 20 endo use. Friar also gets their endo reduction spell in enhancement vs regrowth on warden, though warden reduction is higher. No one will use the new warden styles I doubt other than to test the dmg it does and be disappointed lol.

Prismatic Blade has 230delve vs 184+420 on the high dmg chain. So double prismatic 460 vs combined 604 dmg from two styles. Where the prismatic costs 10 endo for 2 styles the two specials cost 125 endo combined? How's that for a trade off lol? OOE after two swings isn't worth that extra dmg lol.

Wed 16 Jun 2021 8:03 PM by Cymosxl

Once again the same question?
Why....

Wed 16 Jun 2021 9:24 PM by Magesty

Cymosxl wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jun 2021 8:03 PM
Once again the same question?
Why....

1) Style icon positional “carrots” and I’m guessing reactionary indicators now match up to what the style actually does

2) Some style lines were useless and the hope is a revamp will make all of them interesting/worth using

3) This is essentially step one so more class flavor will be introduced as the implementation progresses. Theoretically this will make the game more enjoyable.

I think the motivation for the changes is pretty reasonable, and as we have already seen a nerf to conflag it just might be headed in the right direction.

Wed 16 Jun 2021 10:27 PM by nono31

Hi
For savages:
If we want to spec 2H now we don't have any back snare.

No more parry / evade buff styles in h2h ?

thx

Thu 17 Jun 2021 2:06 AM by stewbeedoo

Crit Strikes seems to have taken a nerf here - you have to spec 45 in order to have a follow-up from anytime Garotte?

Thu 17 Jun 2021 3:46 AM by ExcretusMaximus

nono31 wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jun 2021 10:27 PM
If we want to spec 2H now we don't have any back snare.

Damn...

I'm glad I don't play Midgard anymore, I'd be super pissed that they made an already niche spec worthless.

Thu 17 Jun 2021 6:10 AM by Astaa

Magesty wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jun 2021 9:24 PM
Cymosxl wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Jun 2021 8:03 PM
Once again the same question?
Why....

1) Style icon positional “carrots” and I’m guessing reactionary indicators now match up to what the style actually does

2) Some style lines were useless and the hope is a revamp will make all of them interesting/worth using

3) This is essentially step one so more class flavor will be introduced as the implementation progresses. Theoretically this will make the game more enjoyable.

I think the motivation for the changes is pretty reasonable, and as we have already seen a nerf to conflag it just might be headed in the right direction.

This, which is why people need to give reasoned feedback, not just throw their toys out of the pram.

Thu 17 Jun 2021 7:20 AM by Soulstice

hello! hibernia blunt was the only weapon to have a reactive over parry haste debuf 30% which now I see passed to blades which already has anytime chain hjaste debuf, side snare and another reactive on parry. Now blunt doesn t have anything valuable and is worst than before.
If a goal was to make all weapons valuable will need to put again the parry reactive in blunt and add some more features to it instead to take out. it was barely usable now it s just not worth at all.

Thu 17 Jun 2021 2:24 PM by Forlornhope

Soulstice wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jun 2021 7:20 AM
hello! hibernia blunt was the only weapon to have a reactive over parry haste debuf 30% which now I see passed to blades which already has anytime chain hjaste debuf, side snare and another reactive on parry. Now blunt doesn t have anything valuable and is worst than before.
If a goal was to make all weapons valuable will need to put again the parry reactive in blunt and add some more features to it instead to take out. it was barely usable now it s just not worth at all.

Not sure about other classes, but I know my warden's still got the 30% asr on the level 39 parry style. Or it did yesterday when I was home, at work right now lol.

Thu 17 Jun 2021 4:37 PM by Cymosxl

Side and back chain on hammer Midgard totally crap

Thu 17 Jun 2021 4:46 PM by Cymosxl

Only reason I think is to create timesink for the player's for building new templates

Thu 17 Jun 2021 9:41 PM by Wakanidoo

Savage testing on dummy lvl50;
Damages before style changes:
Wild Call (MH, OH, triple, quad): 94, 47, 50, none
Kelgor's Fist 113, 47, 50, none --> Kelgor's Wrath 124, 47, 50, none
Clan's Call 110, 47, 50 none --> Clan's Might 124, 47, 50, none

Damages a
Damages after style changes:
Wild Call (MH, OH, triple, quad): 82, 47, 50, none
Kelgor's Fist 115, 47, 50, none --> Kelgor's Wrath 129, 47, 50, none
Clan's Call 111, 47, 50, 47* --> Clan's Might 125, 47, 50, none

After Parry/Evade styles not tested, impossible to test reactives on dummies (before changes).

* quad hit happens only 1 time in about 100 tests

So the anytime Wild Call losing 13% damage, its, again., a nerf of a Mid class. And notice ALL other anytimes are useless.
Not speaking of the stupids hit +x targets, Savage lose HP when using its own buffs, how can this savage fight against x targets ?
Not really noticable changes on others styles.

Thu 17 Jun 2021 11:36 PM by Bradekes

Wakanidoo wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Jun 2021 9:41 PM
Savage testing on dummy lvl50;
Damages before style changes:
Wild Call (MH, OH, triple, quad): 94, 47, 50, none
Kelgor's Fist 113, 47, 50, none --> Kelgor's Wrath 124, 47, 50, none
Clan's Call 110, 47, 50 none --> Clan's Might 124, 47, 50, none

Damages a
Damages after style changes:
Wild Call (MH, OH, triple, quad): 82, 47, 50, none
Kelgor's Fist 115, 47, 50, none --> Kelgor's Wrath 129, 47, 50, none
Clan's Call 111, 47, 50, 47* --> Clan's Might 125, 47, 50, none

After Parry/Evade styles not tested, impossible to test reactives on dummies (before changes).

* quad hit happens only 1 time in about 100 tests

So the anytime Wild Call losing 13% damage, its, again., a nerf of a Mid class. And notice ALL other anytimes are useless.
Not speaking of the stupids hit +x targets, Savage lose HP when using its own buffs, how can this savage fight against x targets ?
Not really noticable changes on others styles.

Except it got a great buff to to-hit which probably makes up for it also damage variance also got removed from this update Might account for the dmg difference

Fri 18 Jun 2021 12:28 AM by Bry

Please give friars side snare back. THe side stun is lame. Put the side snare back. If you want a side stun, add it later on in the line higher up but leave the side snare at a lower level.

Bards and wardens can still self peel but friars now can't.

Thanks for listening.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:24 AM by Hattrick

I have a question on these damage delves. How are those figured? I just did a little testing on my h2h savage before trying some other weapons. I only did the side chain of Kelgor's Fist > Kelgor's Wrath. The delves listed for those styles at 65 skill are 280 and 346 respectively. That's a roughly 19% difference in damage between the two styles. My character has 44+14 h2h spec. My actual damage numbers (with combined forces) on the level 50 dummy are:

Kelgor's Fist: 119 damage
Kelgor's Wrath: 131 damage

Those are main hand only as it's the only attack that gets the style bonus. First off, that's only a 10% difference between the two styles instead of the 19% difference in the delve damage numbers, but what is more depressing is the difference between the delve number and the actual damage number. Granted, I'm not at 65 skill, but at 58, I'm not exactly miles away from it either and I'm doing well below the listed delve number, about 58% lower on Kelgor's Fist for example. Even factoring for the 26% resists, that still wouldn't be even close to the delve number. With 0% resists, my Kelgor's Fist would hit for 160 or 43% lower than the delve value.

That just doesn't seem right to me. I did similar tests with my minstrel at 44+13 thrust last night with Liontooth and I was hitting for 92 on a style that delves for 195 at 65 skill. That means without resists, I would have hit for 124 which is 37% lower than the 195 delve value. It seems if I have 1 less composite skill, I should be further from the delve value on the minstrel than I am on the savage.

Finally, I tested the minstrel at 37 thrust and 44 thrust and there was only a difference of 4 points (88 vs. 92) in the damage on Liontooth. Given that, I have a hard time believing that even if you could reach 65 composite skill that you would be close to the listed delve value unless the increase is exponential and it doesn't appear to be. Hoping someone in charge can shed some light on this.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 3:14 AM by Forlornhope

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:24 AM
I have a question on these damage delves. How are those figured? I just did a little testing on my h2h savage before trying some other weapons. I only did the side chain of Kelgor's Fist > Kelgor's Wrath. The delves listed for those styles at 65 skill are 280 and 346 respectively. That's a roughly 19% difference in damage between the two styles. My character has 44+14 h2h spec. My actual damage numbers (with combined forces) on the level 50 dummy are:

Kelgor's Fist: 119 damage
Kelgor's Wrath: 131 damage

Those are main hand only as it's the only attack that gets the style bonus. First off, that's only a 10% difference between the two styles instead of the 19% difference in the delve damage numbers, but what is more depressing is the difference between the delve number and the actual damage number. Granted, I'm not at 65 skill, but at 58, I'm not exactly miles away from it either and I'm doing well below the listed delve number, about 58% lower on Kelgor's Fist for example. Even factoring for the 26% resists, that still wouldn't be even close to the delve number. With 0% resists, my Kelgor's Fist would hit for 160 or 43% lower than the delve value.

That just doesn't seem right to me. I did similar tests with my minstrel at 44+13 thrust last night with Liontooth and I was hitting for 92 on a style that delves for 195 at 65 skill. That means without resists, I would have hit for 124 which is 37% lower than the 195 delve value. It seems if I have 1 less composite skill, I should be further from the delve value on the minstrel than I am on the savage.

Finally, I tested the minstrel at 37 thrust and 44 thrust and there was only a difference of 4 points (88 vs. 92) in the damage on Liontooth. Given that, I have a hard time believing that even if you could reach 65 composite skill that you would be close to the listed delve value unless the increase is exponential and it doesn't appear to be. Hoping someone in charge can shed some light on this.

Maybe the delves listed on the styles are before resists are factored in? The test dummies do have capped resists. Only thing I can think of.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 8:12 AM by Adwaenyth

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:24 AM
I have a question on these damage delves. How are those figured? I just did a little testing on my h2h savage before trying some other weapons. I only did the side chain of Kelgor's Fist > Kelgor's Wrath. The delves listed for those styles at 65 skill are 280 and 346 respectively. That's a roughly 19% difference in damage between the two styles. My character has 44+14 h2h spec. My actual damage numbers (with combined forces) on the level 50 dummy are:

Kelgor's Fist: 119 damage
Kelgor's Wrath: 131 damage

Those are main hand only as it's the only attack that gets the style bonus. First off, that's only a 10% difference between the two styles instead of the 19% difference in the delve damage numbers, but what is more depressing is the difference between the delve number and the actual damage number. Granted, I'm not at 65 skill, but at 58, I'm not exactly miles away from it either and I'm doing well below the listed delve number, about 58% lower on Kelgor's Fist for example. Even factoring for the 26% resists, that still wouldn't be even close to the delve number. With 0% resists, my Kelgor's Fist would hit for 160 or 43% lower than the delve value.

The base weapon damage is part of that damage value and makes up about half (depending on style bonus) of what your actual damage is. The other about half is your style bonus. So your deduction about the bonus being 19% more is in line with that.

Also the listed value is no absolute damage value. It is a factor in the damage calculation that gets then computed with the actual weapon damage, weapon speed and weapon skill of your character. Thus it is misleading when you do not know about that.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 8:42 AM by skipari

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:24 AM
I have a question on these damage delves. How are those figured? I just did a little testing on my h2h savage before trying some other weapons. I only did the side chain of Kelgor's Fist > Kelgor's Wrath. The delves listed for those styles at 65 skill are 280 and 346 respectively. That's a roughly 19% difference in damage between the two styles. My character has 44+14 h2h spec. My actual damage numbers (with combined forces) on the level 50 dummy are:

Kelgor's Fist: 119 damage
Kelgor's Wrath: 131 damage

Those are main hand only as it's the only attack that gets the style bonus. First off, that's only a 10% difference between the two styles instead of the 19% difference in the delve damage numbers, but what is more depressing is the difference between the delve number and the actual damage number. Granted, I'm not at 65 skill, but at 58, I'm not exactly miles away from it either and I'm doing well below the listed delve number, about 58% lower on Kelgor's Fist for example. Even factoring for the 26% resists, that still wouldn't be even close to the delve number. With 0% resists, my Kelgor's Fist would hit for 160 or 43% lower than the delve value.

That just doesn't seem right to me. I did similar tests with my minstrel at 44+13 thrust last night with Liontooth and I was hitting for 92 on a style that delves for 195 at 65 skill. That means without resists, I would have hit for 124 which is 37% lower than the 195 delve value. It seems if I have 1 less composite skill, I should be further from the delve value on the minstrel than I am on the savage.

Finally, I tested the minstrel at 37 thrust and 44 thrust and there was only a difference of 4 points (88 vs. 92) in the damage on Liontooth. Given that, I have a hard time believing that even if you could reach 65 composite skill that you would be close to the listed delve value unless the increase is exponential and it doesn't appear to be. Hoping someone in charge can shed some light on this.

i tried to explain how the damage is calculated in a different thread yesterday, https://forum.playphoenix.online/realm/rvr/29708-style-changes

Fri 18 Jun 2021 9:43 AM by Hattrick

skipari wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 8:42 AM
i tried to explain how the damage is calculated in a different thread yesterday, https://forum.playphoenix.online/realm/rvr/29708-style-changes

I just went and read that and it makes sense, but after reading it, I still question why my minstrel was only doing 4 points more with Liontooth at 44 spec than he was at 37 spec. If the increase in style bonus is 5 damage per spec point, it seems he should have been doing much more at 44 spec rather than just a paltry 4 points.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 9:49 AM by skipari

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 9:43 AM
skipari wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 8:42 AM
i tried to explain how the damage is calculated in a different thread yesterday, https://forum.playphoenix.online/realm/rvr/29708-style-changes

I just went and read that and it makes sense, but after reading it, I still question why my minstrel was only doing 4 points more with Liontooth at 44 spec than he was at 37 spec. If the increase in style bonus is 5 damage per spec point, it seems he should have been doing much more at 44 spec rather than just a paltry 4 points.

If you give me your weaponspeed, qui/haste, combined spec, damagemod etc i can try to figure it out. But general speaking without details 5 damage per points just means a increase of 0.5 damage per specpoint multiplied by your weaponspeed multiplied by the damagemodifier. In example if we talk here about a low damagemod of lets say just 1.0 and a 1.5 weaponspeed it would be 5.25 extra damage per style for those mentioned 7 points difference in spec.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:13 AM by l00ri

Someone should take a look at the Axe or Left Axe Line for Shadowblades. We need a similiar Style-Chain like the 34-50 Pierce-Chain in Hib. The def and to-hit Bonus + 30 % ASR Debuff on the Anytime-Chain is pretty broken right now. This would be very much appreciated by I guess every SB out there.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:31 AM by Sepplord

l00ri wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:13 AM
The def and to-hit Bonus + 30 % ASR Debuff on the Anytime-Chain is pretty broken right now.

Wwouldn't it make more sense to change something that is broken, instead of giving it to more classes?

Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:41 AM by l00ri

I dont think so, if you spec 50 Points into a Line you should get something out of it. I'm not against the Styles, but it should be somewhat possible for every Assassin to have a good Chain like that imo.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:41 AM by Bradekes

l00ri wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:13 AM
Someone should take a look at the Axe or Left Axe Line for Shadowblades. We need a similiar Style-Chain like the 34-50 Pierce-Chain in Hib. The def and to-hit Bonus + 30 % ASR Debuff on the Anytime-Chain is pretty broken right now. This would be very much appreciated by I guess every SB out there.

Midgard doesn't have an awesome anytime chain because their weapon can also be 2h. The closest you get is the frontal chain in sword which actually looks pretty good and is comparable to the 50 pierce chain. Also how many sneaks are going to run 50 pierce on hib? Lol

That side chain on axe 50 looks crazy strong anyways.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:44 AM by l00ri

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:41 AM
l00ri wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:13 AM
Someone should take a look at the Axe or Left Axe Line for Shadowblades. We need a similiar Style-Chain like the 34-50 Pierce-Chain in Hib. The def and to-hit Bonus + 30 % ASR Debuff on the Anytime-Chain is pretty broken right now. This would be very much appreciated by I guess every SB out there.

Midgard doesn't have an awesome anytime chain because their weapon can also be 2h. The closest you get is the frontal chain in sword which actually looks pretty good and is comparable to the 50 pierce chain. Also how many sneaks are going to run 50 pierce on hib? Lol

Pierce Chain does more Damage, has a better ASR Debuff, WAY better to-hit + def Bonuses (the best part about it) and its "anytime". So no, its not comparable.
Wait until the word spreads, there are already NS running 50 Pierce, Ambermoon for example. Its not even close anymore, just cant compete with 25-30% Miss-Chance and no def-Bonus yourself.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:34 AM by DJ2000

I did a little roundup at an earlier stage where i called out, that you should go 50 pierce, and no less, when going pierce at all.
It plays like the LA build, with low CS,
In fact, both NS and Infi have now a "SB LA"-like build, while only the NS has it based on the main damage type line.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:37 AM by inoeth

why does whirling spear now only has 179 delve? i am pretty sure it was 222 before ....

why do you hate hunters?

Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:59 AM by Bradekes

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:34 AM
I did a little roundup at an earlier stage where i called out, that you should go 50 pierce, and no less, when going pierce at all.
It plays like the LA build, with low CS,
In fact, both NS and Infi have now a "SB LA"-like build, while only the NS has it based on the main damage type line.

50 pierce is no where near 50 LA build. NS only get the dual wield haste effect when OH swings w/MH. I guess with new styles it does have its advantages. It's nice though that there are new options with the new style changes. Maybe def bonuses could be adjusted on stealth classes.

Also if you notice ALL 2h specs have medium dmg anytime styles. Only 1h lines have good anytime dmg mod.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 12:04 PM by DJ2000

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:59 AM
50 pierce is no where near 50 LA build. NS only get the dual wield haste effect when OH swings w/MH. I guess with new styles it does have its advantages. It's nice though that there are new options with the new style changes. Maybe def bonuses could be adjusted on stealth classes.

Also if you notice ALL 2h specs have medium dmg anytime styles. Only 1h lines have good anytime dmg mod.

Tell me when i did say anything to the contrary.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 12:21 PM by l00ri

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:59 AM
50 pierce is no where near 50 LA build.

Thats true, right now its way better than LA Builds.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 12:29 PM by Bradekes

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 12:04 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:59 AM
50 pierce is no where near 50 LA build. NS only get the dual wield haste effect when OH swings w/MH. I guess with new styles it does have its advantages. It's nice though that there are new options with the new style changes. Maybe def bonuses could be adjusted on stealth classes.

Also if you notice ALL 2h specs have medium dmg anytime styles. Only 1h lines have good anytime dmg mod.
Tell me when i did say anything to the contrary.

You implied 50 pierce is better than other builds for NS if you go pierce at all. I'm just not convinced that's true exactly but if the +10 and +5 def is that strong maybe? The 2h thing wasn't directed to you

Fri 18 Jun 2021 12:40 PM by Ogos

A word here from a low RR H2H savage.

These changes have cost the savage quite a bit of defense. My usual anytime opener was an evade boost. And the third in the parry chain was a boost to parry. These are both gone and I'm getting hit a lot more (mostly PvE but RvR too).

And because I have no way to boost parry and evade I also get less use out of my parry and evade styles so offense suffers as well.

There is a new attack speed debuff anytimer which is ok but doesn't make up for what is taken away.

Side and rear attacks were decent before and still are quite good but the overall effect is a nerf to a class that's not exactly a gamebreaker to start with.

I am wondering why this is happening at all. I am unclear on what the need was for such sweeping changes.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 12:41 PM by DJ2000

No, i did not.

Just as you quoted yourself:
"...you should go 50 pierce, and no less, when going pierce at all. "

If you have an opinion on the matter, feel free to post it.
But, If you read something wrong, then just admit it.

Otherwise, this is just wasting both of our times.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 12:59 PM by Hattrick

Ogos wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 12:40 PM
A word here from a low RR H2H savage.

These changes have cost the savage quite a bit of defense. My usual anytime opener was an evade boost. And the third in the parry chain was a boost to parry. These are both gone and I'm getting hit a lot more (mostly PvE but RvR too).

And because I have no way to boost parry and evade I also get less use out of my parry and evade styles so offense suffers as well.

There is a new attack speed debuff anytimer which is ok but doesn't make up for what is taken away.

Side and rear attacks were decent before and still are quite good but the overall effect is a nerf to a class that's not exactly a gamebreaker to start with.

I am wondering why this is happening at all. I am unclear on what the need was for such sweeping changes.

Your Savagery parry and evade buffs are far superior to the anytime ones in the style lines, even at only 39 Savagery and yeah, I'm aware the unicorn 3 part parry chain buff is slightly better. I'm pretty sure those were only put in to help lower level savages anyway. That's why the 2 anytime styles with those buffs are relatively low spec.

Personally, the only time I ever used them was when I was doing solo pve and even then, that was only to give myself a little more time before having to sit to regen health. Losing them is not a big deal IMHO.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 1:16 PM by Bradekes

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 12:41 PM
No, i did not.

Just as you quoted yourself:
"...you should go 50 pierce, and no less, when going pierce at all. "

If you have an opinion on the matter, feel free to post it.
But, If you read something wrong, then just admit it.

Otherwise, this is just wasting both of our times.

I don't think I read it wrong. Maybe you worded it poorly. If you were calling out that you confirmed that going 50 pierce wasn't a good idea or if it was would of been helpful?

Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:02 PM by DJ2000

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 1:16 PM
I don't think I read it wrong. Maybe you worded it poorly. If you were calling out that you confirmed that going 50 pierce wasn't a good idea or if it was would of been helpful?

Sure, be like that.

"...you should go 50 pierce, and no less, when going pierce at all. " = When/If going Pierce, go 50.
That's what stands there. Nothing else.

Unless you have something to contribute, i'm done with these petty attempts.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:05 PM by inoeth

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:37 AM
why does whirling spear now only has 179 delve? i am pretty sure it was 222 before ....

why do you hate hunters?

i mean you give dd proc on conflagration but think 222 on hunter anytimer is too strong? come on!

Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:22 PM by skipari

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:05 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:37 AM
why does whirling spear now only has 179 delve? i am pretty sure it was 222 before ....

why do you hate hunters?

i mean you give dd proc on conflagration but think 222 on hunter anytimer is too strong? come on!

he does talk about the "Damage at 65" entry which is 179, whirling spear has no proc

Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:30 PM by inoeth

skipari wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:22 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:05 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:37 AM
why does whirling spear now only has 179 delve? i am pretty sure it was 222 before ....

why do you hate hunters?

i mean you give dd proc on conflagration but think 222 on hunter anytimer is too strong? come on!

he does talk about the "Damage at 65" entry which is 179, whirling spear has no proc

i know what "he" said because that was me too lol
still you misread what i said..
i was talking about whirling spear being 222 at 65 in the test charplaner and now its only 179
while VWs get a dd proc on basicly an anytime chain.... which is ridicolous!

Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:36 PM by skipari

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:30 PM
skipari wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:22 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:05 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:37 AM
why does whirling spear now only has 179 delve? i am pretty sure it was 222 before ....

why do you hate hunters?

i mean you give dd proc on conflagration but think 222 on hunter anytimer is too strong? come on!

he does talk about the "Damage at 65" entry which is 179, whirling spear has no proc

i know what "he" said because that was me too lol
still you misread what i said..
i was talking about whirling spear being 222 at 65 in the test charplaner and now its only 179
while VWs get a dd proc on basicly an anytime chain.... which is ridicolous!

yeh, looks like i should read the names sometimes.

and well, nearly all anytimers got reduced in value with some exceptions in the 40+ spec area. For solo gameplay conflag chain can be seen somewhat as anytimer, and yeh i agree that it odd at least. But ignoring the vw frontchain the reduction is reasonable and inline with the other anytimer class adjustments basically.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:39 PM by Tashkent

skipari wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:36 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:30 PM
skipari wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:22 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:05 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:37 AM
why does whirling spear now only has 179 delve? i am pretty sure it was 222 before ....

why do you hate hunters?

i mean you give dd proc on conflagration but think 222 on hunter anytimer is too strong? come on!

he does talk about the "Damage at 65" entry which is 179, whirling spear has no proc

i know what "he" said because that was me too lol
still you misread what i said..
i was talking about whirling spear being 222 at 65 in the test charplaner and now its only 179
while VWs get a dd proc on basicly an anytime chain.... which is ridicolous!

yeh, looks like i should read the names sometimes.

and well, nearly all anytimers got reduced in value with some exceptions in the 40+ spec area. For solo gameplay conflag chain can be seen somewhat as anytimer, and yeh i agree that it odd at least. But ignoring the vw frontchain the reduction is reasonable and inline with the other anytimer class adjustments basically.

Then dish out one of those juicy front chains for spear too.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:50 PM by Bradekes

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:02 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 1:16 PM
I don't think I read it wrong. Maybe you worded it poorly. If you were calling out that you confirmed that going 50 pierce wasn't a good idea or if it was would of been helpful?

Sure, be like that.

"...you should go 50 pierce, and no less, when going pierce at all. " = When/If going Pierce, go 50.
That's what stands there. Nothing else.

Unless you have something to contribute, i'm done with these petty attempts.

So I didn't read your statement wrong? You're implying exactly what I said. I subjectively disagree with that statement as a NS loses out on a lot of dps by lacking higher cs & CD IMO. If 50 pierce is worth it, why?

Fri 18 Jun 2021 3:08 PM by inoeth

skipari wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:36 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:30 PM
skipari wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:22 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:05 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:37 AM
why does whirling spear now only has 179 delve? i am pretty sure it was 222 before ....

why do you hate hunters?

i mean you give dd proc on conflagration but think 222 on hunter anytimer is too strong? come on!

he does talk about the "Damage at 65" entry which is 179, whirling spear has no proc

i know what "he" said because that was me too lol
still you misread what i said..
i was talking about whirling spear being 222 at 65 in the test charplaner and now its only 179
while VWs get a dd proc on basicly an anytime chain.... which is ridicolous!

yeh, looks like i should read the names sometimes.

and well, nearly all anytimers got reduced in value with some exceptions in the 40+ spec area. For solo gameplay conflag chain can be seen somewhat as anytimer, and yeh i agree that it odd at least. But ignoring the vw frontchain the reduction is reasonable and inline with the other anytimer class adjustments basically.

not exactly for example reaver anytimer has now 15 to hit and 45 dd proc on it... which is far superior than before (taunt with 0,58 GR medium bonus?)

i mean the hunter anytimer got a little better now, has medium to hit which was low before but there could also be something done with the dmg imo

Fri 18 Jun 2021 3:15 PM by skipari

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 3:08 PM
skipari wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:36 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:30 PM
skipari wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:22 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 2:05 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:37 AM
why does whirling spear now only has 179 delve? i am pretty sure it was 222 before ....

why do you hate hunters?

i mean you give dd proc on conflagration but think 222 on hunter anytimer is too strong? come on!

he does talk about the "Damage at 65" entry which is 179, whirling spear has no proc

i know what "he" said because that was me too lol
still you misread what i said..
i was talking about whirling spear being 222 at 65 in the test charplaner and now its only 179
while VWs get a dd proc on basicly an anytime chain.... which is ridicolous!

yeh, looks like i should read the names sometimes.

and well, nearly all anytimers got reduced in value with some exceptions in the 40+ spec area. For solo gameplay conflag chain can be seen somewhat as anytimer, and yeh i agree that it odd at least. But ignoring the vw frontchain the reduction is reasonable and inline with the other anytimer class adjustments basically.

not exactly for example reaver anytimer has now 15 to hit and 45 dd proc on it... which is far superior than before (taunt with 0,58 GR medium bonus?)

i mean the hunter anytimer got a little better now, has medium to hit which was low before but there could also be something done with the dmg imo

actually correct, but i'm tired to tell people that reaver/vw/friar is overtuned currently so i started to fully ignore them on all my considerations i guess.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 4:15 PM by inoeth

also NS with 50 pierce wtf this needs to be adjusted: anytime combo with high dmg medium to high to hit aaand 30% ASR

its really unfair when some classes have to stand in front of the target to get their combo off and others just have it anytime and keep you from performing your fronts with walk throughs

Fri 18 Jun 2021 5:28 PM by l00ri

Thats what I said two pages earlier. It's just too strong, this needs to be fixed asap before everyone is 50 pierce.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:26 PM by nono31

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 4:15 PM
also NS with 50 pierce wtf this needs to be adjusted: anytime combo with high dmg medium to high to hit aaand 30% ASR

its really unfair when some classes have to stand in front of the target to get their combo off and others just have it anytime and keep you from performing your fronts with walk throughs

This combo hit harder than garrotte / death's door if charplan is correct .

Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:42 PM by Bradekes

nono31 wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:26 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 4:15 PM
also NS with 50 pierce wtf this needs to be adjusted: anytime combo with high dmg medium to high to hit aaand 30% ASR

its really unfair when some classes have to stand in front of the target to get their combo off and others just have it anytime and keep you from performing your fronts with walk throughs

This combo hit harder than garrotte / death's door if charplan is correct .

NS lvl 34+50 pierce anytime combo 150+314=464
Effects- lvl34:None lvl50:30%asr

Infy lvl 50 DW frontal 242+242=484
Effects- lvl50: 13bleed

SB lvl 8+15 sword frontal combo 156+286=442
Effects- lvl8:21%asr lvl15: 13 bleed

Really isn't that big a deal with the amount of investment involved.

SB also get 0.5%dmg with 2h sword per point in sword which is added bonus I think evens out as NS doesn't really have the spec points to get much from 50pierce

Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:45 PM by ExcretusMaximus

You're ignoring the bonuses to hit and defense and just looking at damage and effect.

Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:48 PM by Bradekes

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:45 PM
You're ignoring the bonuses to hit and defense and just looking at damage and effect.

True and these guys are just looking at the styles and not considering what NS loses by speccing 50pierce

Sat 19 Jun 2021 6:33 AM by nono31

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:42 PM
NS lvl 34+50 pierce anytime combo 150+314=464
Effects- lvl34:None lvl50:30%asr

Infy lvl 50 DW frontal 242+242=484
Effects- lvl50: 13bleed

SB lvl 8+15 sword frontal combo 156+286=442
Effects- lvl8:21%asr lvl15: 13 bleed

Really isn't that big a deal with the amount of investment involved.

SB also get 0.5%dmg with 2h sword per point in sword which is added bonus I think evens out as NS doesn't really have the spec points to get much from 50pierce

Someone can tell me where to read the 2H bonus on midgard phoenix please ?

Sat 19 Jun 2021 6:39 AM by skipari

nono31 wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Jun 2021 6:33 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:42 PM
NS lvl 34+50 pierce anytime combo 150+314=464
Effects- lvl34:None lvl50:30%asr

Infy lvl 50 DW frontal 242+242=484
Effects- lvl50: 13bleed

SB lvl 8+15 sword frontal combo 156+286=442
Effects- lvl8:21%asr lvl15: 13 bleed

Really isn't that big a deal with the amount of investment involved.

SB also get 0.5%dmg with 2h sword per point in sword which is added bonus I think evens out as NS doesn't really have the spec points to get much from 50pierce

Someone can tell me where to read the 2H bonus on midgard phoenix please ?

some is here https://forum.playphoenix.online/server/wiki-pages/29344-physical-damage-mechanics

but in summary your unstyled damage gets modified by * 1.10 + (0.005 * 2h_spec)

Sat 19 Jun 2021 11:06 AM by Noashakra

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:45 PM
You're ignoring the bonuses to hit and defense and just looking at damage and effect.

I played against it, it's unbeatable. Who care if you do medium/low damage if you opponent is missing 1 hit out of 3.

Sat 19 Jun 2021 3:26 PM by Magesty

ASR is not a fun mechanic. No reason it should be so prolific across so many lines, reach such high values, or last for so long. They should only be accessible off of side/back positionals or reactionaries and the duration should only be such that an average opponent misses one or two swings.

If they have to be attached to anytime/frontals it should be 10-15% value at most.

Sat 19 Jun 2021 3:44 PM by Astaa

Even as a reactive, it is very effective.

Mon 21 Jun 2021 12:29 PM by Saroi

Seeing the new styles for a few days now I think overall it has been a good change but there are still some points that I think needs to be changed.

Anytimers: A lot of classes already gain an upgrade if their Anytimer now has none defense bonus while before it had a medium penalty. Now some have a low or even medium defense bonus. THis make a 20% hit/miss difference, which is actually huge. So all low or medium to hit bonus should be completely removed. This is something that should only be on reaction or side/back positionals.

VW Front needs its high defense bonus completely removed. 15% higher miss for enemy is just insane with the new damage or kite potential. The snare should get lowered to either 4 seconds or completely removed.

Reaver anytimer has a high to hit. It should be lowered to either low or medium to hit.

The SI Hybrids strength is about their positionals but now they have pretty much one of the best anytimers too which just makes them really strong.

DD Style proccs: The damage is really high. Taken 1:1 from live, other classes are missing a lot of different buffs or the overall extra resist buffs etc. to make up for it. The damage overall should be lowered to something like 1/2 or 1/3.

Since you once made a change with snare being tied to base weapon speed, a change for procs to base weaponspeed would also be an idea. Reavers are just using a 3.0 Flex and VW going 3.5 crafted or if they are lucky/rich to get the 3.0 Scythe from the SI dungeon. Levi 200 damage should only be accessable with a 4.2 flex and VW dd proc (like side hitting for 300 damage) with a 5.5/5.7 Scythe. Same goes ofc for Thane or Friars.

ASR: The numbers on ASR also seems a bit off for me. For example Hammer, Blade or LW get the 30% ASR on a after parry style. 2h on Albion has it on a followup, which is harder to land and should be higher because of that.

Mon 21 Jun 2021 3:39 PM by Bry

Give friars side snare back at level 15. move the side stun somewhere else.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 4:00 PM by Jerry

Playing a 6L6 merc thrust hitting for 135-145 main and 40-54 off hand damage vs enemies week to thrust is this supposed to hit so soft??? It seems very very low compared to what the other classes are hitting back in comparison. Even when being hit by crush vs chain they are still doing 50-100 damage on average more. swing vs swing....

Tue 22 Jun 2021 4:14 PM by Bradekes

Jerry wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 4:00 PM
Playing a 6L6 merc thrust hitting for 135-145 main and 40-54 off hand damage vs enemies week to thrust is this supposed to hit so soft??? It seems very very low compared to what the other classes are hitting back in comparison. Even when being hit by crush vs chain they are still doing 50-100 damage on average more. swing vs swing....

Just curious to your speeds on MH & OH weapons and what race/class you're fighting with 50 to 100 more dmg with crush dmg.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 4:48 PM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 4:14 PM
Jerry wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 4:00 PM
Playing a 6L6 merc thrust hitting for 135-145 main and 40-54 off hand damage vs enemies week to thrust is this supposed to hit so soft??? It seems very very low compared to what the other classes are hitting back in comparison. Even when being hit by crush vs chain they are still doing 50-100 damage on average more. swing vs swing....

Just curious to your speeds on MH & OH weapons and what race/class you're fighting with 50 to 100 more dmg with crush dmg.

also which styles? positionals are really strong for mercs

Tue 22 Jun 2021 6:05 PM by Saroi

Jerry wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 4:00 PM
Playing a 6L6 merc thrust hitting for 135-145 main and 40-54 off hand damage vs enemies week to thrust is this supposed to hit so soft??? It seems very very low compared to what the other classes are hitting back in comparison. Even when being hit by crush vs chain they are still doing 50-100 damage on average more. swing vs swing....

In some sort yes. It depends what you are using. Anytimer are weak on Lighttanks. Some classes have around 200 dmg on Anytimers, while Merc is like 130-140. Makes a good difference.

But other styles are strong. Had a Merc hit me in the 1v1 event on my Warrior for 275 Mainhand with Sidechain.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 6:32 PM by Saroi

This is also something that needs a look at. Anytimers with about 200 damage on 65 need to be lowered to 130-140ish like the others. I mean those Anytimers do more damage than any other style. Testing with Paladin Amethyst slash, it hits more than any Side, Back or after block. Only other style you need is ASR and then just anytimer anytimer anytimer. Such high damage on Anytimers pretty much takes a big portion of higher damage table away. Testing on a Thane and Warrior, Warrior did 30 more damage with 2h.

Pretty much same what every Hib melee does now. Just frustrating fighting them with medium def bonus, high asr as followup. They hit it and then just spam the anytimer for the 25% miss. In case of Champ and Hero they have 195 damage on it. Making them hit almost 180-200 damage with a 1h.

Nightshade? 50 Piercing!
Ranger? 50 Piercing!
Champ? 50 Piercing!
Hero? 50 Piercing!
50 Piercing? 50 Piercing!

Tue 22 Jun 2021 7:28 PM by Bradekes

Saroi wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 6:32 PM
This is also something that needs a look at. Anytimers with about 200 damage on 65 need to be lowered to 130-140ish like the others. I mean those Anytimers do more damage than any other style. Testing with Paladin Amethyst slash, it hits more than any Side, Back or after block. Only other style you need is ASR and then just anytimer anytimer anytimer. Such high damage on Anytimers pretty much takes a big portion of higher damage table away. Testing on a Thane and Warrior, Warrior did 30 more damage with 2h.

Pretty much same what every Hib melee does now. Just frustrating fighting them with medium def bonus, high asr as followup. They hit it and then just spam the anytimer for the 25% miss. In case of Champ and Hero they have 195 damage on it. Making them hit almost 180-200 damage with a 1h.

Nightshade? 50 Piercing!
Ranger? 50 Piercing!
Champ? 50 Piercing!
Hero? 50 Piercing!
50 Piercing? 50 Piercing!

Alb frontal Slash styles have same thing.. decent dmg but very high defense and good to hit with ASR but instead of 50 they're at 4 & 10 lol.. this hib pierce complaint is getting stale

Tue 22 Jun 2021 8:19 PM by Saroi

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 7:28 PM
Alb frontal Slash styles have same thing.. decent dmg but very high defense and good to hit with ASR but instead of 50 they're at 4 & 10 lol.. this hib pierce complaint is getting stale

Yeah it really is stale when everyone specs it. Even the classes that usually go LW(2h) are going 1h pierce because you gain so much more.

Where do you see high defense on Alb Front slash? The defense is medium just like that of the pierce but pierce can be hit in all directions and pierce damage is much higher. Are you thinking about VW Front? Because that has High defense.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 8:53 PM by Magesty

Bradekes wrote: Alb frontal Slash styles have same thing.. decent dmg but very high defense and good to hit with ASR but instead of 50 they're at 4 & 10 lol.. this hib pierce complaint is getting stale

Dang you actually are a Hib Humper.

The Hib Pierce chain is objectively better. The only the Alb slash chain has going for it is 5 total defensive bonus more across the two styles.

The Hib chain is an anytime, has a significantly higher debuff value, and far more damage. The level of the style is moot if it offers not only significantly increased damage and consistency compared to the Alb chain, but also more value than other Hib lines that would otherwise be specced.

I've been saying it throughout this whole thread. 30% ASRs are anti fun and way too powerful. If implemented at all they should be low duration and hard to pull off. Certainly not on an anytime chain in a base weapon line.

Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:55 PM by Bradekes

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 8:53 PM
Bradekes wrote: Alb frontal Slash styles have same thing.. decent dmg but very high defense and good to hit with ASR but instead of 50 they're at 4 & 10 lol.. this hib pierce complaint is getting stale

Dang you actually are a Hib Humper.

The Hib Pierce chain is objectively better. The only the Alb slash chain has going for it is 5 total defensive bonus more across the two styles.

The Hib chain is an anytime, has a significantly higher debuff value, and far more damage. The level of the style is moot if it offers not only significantly increased damage and consistency compared to the Alb chain, but also more value than other Hib lines that would otherwise be specced.

I've been saying it throughout this whole thread. 30% ASRs are anti fun and way too powerful. If implemented at all they should be low duration and hard to pull off. Certainly not on an anytime chain in a base weapon line.

Wow.. so you think I'm claiming that a lvl 4 & 10 style are the exact same as a 34 & 50 chain? Really!? The amount invested from alb to have a similar defensively equal style chain is a lot less investment than hib.. that is my point. I HOPE a lvl 50 style would be better than a lvl 10, but you want to nerf it to a style that's lvl 10 or make it worse... that's the problem.

If the style lines are to have some uniqueness about them then you shouldn't advocate for everything that's different to be nerfed. Especially because you think all hib is gunna spec pierce now, hib pierce always had very high growth rates except now they have a good lvl 50 follow up ur jealous of.

The frontal on the lvl 4 slash is 16% asr which is higher than the yellow lvl 36 champion debuff is that fair? The level 10 slash follow up has 5 more defense bonus than hib level 50 pierce is that fair?

Wed 23 Jun 2021 8:06 AM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:55 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 8:53 PM
Bradekes wrote: Alb frontal Slash styles have same thing.. decent dmg but very high defense and good to hit with ASR but instead of 50 they're at 4 & 10 lol.. this hib pierce complaint is getting stale

Dang you actually are a Hib Humper.

The Hib Pierce chain is objectively better. The only the Alb slash chain has going for it is 5 total defensive bonus more across the two styles.

The Hib chain is an anytime, has a significantly higher debuff value, and far more damage. The level of the style is moot if it offers not only significantly increased damage and consistency compared to the Alb chain, but also more value than other Hib lines that would otherwise be specced.

I've been saying it throughout this whole thread. 30% ASRs are anti fun and way too powerful. If implemented at all they should be low duration and hard to pull off. Certainly not on an anytime chain in a base weapon line.

Wow.. so you think I'm claiming that a lvl 4 & 10 style are the exact same as a 34 & 50 chain? Really!? The amount invested from alb to have a similar defensively equal style chain is a lot less investment than hib.. that is my point. I HOPE a lvl 50 style would be better than a lvl 10, but you want to nerf it to a style that's lvl 10 or make it worse... that's the problem.

If the style lines are to have some uniqueness about them then you shouldn't advocate for everything that's different to be nerfed. Especially because you think all hib is gunna spec pierce now, hib pierce always had very high growth rates except now they have a good lvl 50 follow up ur jealous of.

The frontal on the lvl 4 slash is 16% asr which is higher than the yellow lvl 36 champion debuff is that fair? The level 10 slash follow up has 5 more defense bonus than hib level 50 pierce is that fair?

phew who cares if a style is lvl 4 or 34 tbh? what counts in the end is the endgame spec and what it offers and clearly piercing is by far the strongest weapon spec through all realms now because of these two styles. i mean they have everything, good dmg, very good to hit, very good def bonus and asr. there are only two chains that are similar good and that is the celtic dual front chain for rangers and VW front chain. all hib.

now calling ppl jealous when point that out is a bit awkward tbh

Wed 23 Jun 2021 12:09 PM by Magesty

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:55 PM
Wow.. so you think I'm claiming that a lvl 4 & 10 style are the exact same as a 34 & 50 chain?

When you leverage something as evidence to dismiss an argument in that manner the assumption is that you are making, at the very least, an exceptionally strong comparison.

If lil Johnny is complaining about his sister’s apples and his mom says, “you have your own apples lil Johnny. Your complaining is getting stale.” The mom’s implication is that lil Johnnies apples are similar enough to his sister’s that his complaints are easily dismissed.

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:55 PM
Really!? The amount invested from alb to have a similar defensively equal style chain is a lot less investment than hib.. that is my point. I HOPE a lvl 50 style would be better than a lvl 10, but you want to nerf it to a style that's lvl 10 or make it worse... that's the problem.

I didn’t indicate one way or the other what I thought the style should be changed to. Only that ASRs need to be reconsidered in general. See, this is an actual example of putting words into someone’s mouth.

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:55 PM
If the style lines are to have some uniqueness about them then you shouldn't advocate for everything that's different to be nerfed. Especially because you think all hib is gunna spec pierce now, hib pierce always had very high growth rates except now they have a good lvl 50 follow up ur jealous of.

Flavor is one thing, power level is another. If they release Paladin’s updated style lines and they have an anytime with a 100 value heal/DD proc people giving feedback that they think it is too powerful aren’t necessarily advocating for homogenization or removal of any unique qualities from the line.

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:55 PM
The frontal on the lvl 4 slash is 16% asr which is higher than the yellow lvl 36 champion debuff is that fair? The level 10 slash follow up has 5 more defense bonus than hib level 50 pierce is that fair?

I think looking at spell debuffs and comparing them to melee haste debuffs is actually a pretty good example of why I have an issue with ASRs existing on any time and frontal chains.

The fundamental issue with your approach is that you assume other forum members have an obsession with a particular realm like you do. This assumption informs every argument you make as well as your impression of others’ motives. Instead of attempting an objective discussion of mechanics, each thread is perceived as a battleground wherein players are trying to wrest power from the other realms while preserving their own.

This isn’t geopolitics. It’s a twenty year old MMORPG.

Wed 23 Jun 2021 1:51 PM by Sepplord

on a side note, does little jimmies cousing from the north also have apples to compare?
the last few pages seem to have been a back and forth between alb and hib, how does mid fit into the equation?

i only have mediocre overview over all classes/styles and i don't play melee myself.
So far (from reading the forum) it seems to be a pretty well recieved update, besides a few complaints that VW is overtuned and missing class-flavor

So is it pretty ok, and realm-differences are mostly only relevant in min/max edge cases of 1vs1 scenarios?

Wed 23 Jun 2021 1:59 PM by Bradekes

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jun 2021 1:51 PM
on a side note, does little jimmies cousing from the north also have apples to compare?
the last few pages seem to have been a back and forth between alb and hib, how does mid fit into the equation?

i only have mediocre overview over all classes/styles and i don't play melee myself.
So far (from reading the forum) it seems to be a pretty well recieved update, besides a few complaints that VW is overtuned and missing class-flavor

So is it pretty ok, and realm-differences are mostly only relevant in min/max edge cases of 1vs1 scenarios?

Yeah mid kinda got the shaft on anytime styles. Axe does have a low level 21asr anytime. Swords also has good frontal with 21asr and good growth follow up. The problem is they don't have any good defense or to hit comparatively. The reason their growthrates are lower is two hand use as all 2h lines don't have good anytime styles on any realm and I guess to balance mid got kinda the short stick though I think their anytime should have an inbeyween anytime like 180dmg to compensate.

Wed 23 Jun 2021 2:26 PM by Bradekes

Magesty wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Jun 2021 12:09 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:55 PM
Wow.. so you think I'm claiming that a lvl 4 & 10 style are the exact same as a 34 & 50 chain?

1. When you leverage something as evidence to dismiss an argument in that manner the assumption is that you are making, at the very least, an exceptionally strong comparison.

If lil Johnny is complaining about his sister’s apples and his mom says, “you have your own apples lil Johnny. Your complaining is getting stale.” The mom’s implication is that lil Johnnies apples are similar enough to his sister’s that his complaints are easily dismissed.

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:55 PM
Really!? The amount invested from alb to have a similar defensively equal style chain is a lot less investment than hib.. that is my point. I HOPE a lvl 50 style would be better than a lvl 10, but you want to nerf it to a style that's lvl 10 or make it worse... that's the problem.

2. I didn’t indicate one way or the other what I thought the style should be changed to. Only that ASRs need to be reconsidered in general. See, this is an actual example of putting words into someone’s mouth.

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:55 PM
If the style lines are to have some uniqueness about them then you shouldn't advocate for everything that's different to be nerfed. Especially because you think all hib is gunna spec pierce now, hib pierce always had very high growth rates except now they have a good lvl 50 follow up ur jealous of.

3. Flavor is one thing, power level is another. If they release Paladin’s updated style lines and they have an anytime with a 100 value heal/DD proc people giving feedback that they think it is too powerful aren’t necessarily advocating for homogenization or removal of any unique qualities from the line.

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jun 2021 9:55 PM
The frontal on the lvl 4 slash is 16% asr which is higher than the yellow lvl 36 champion debuff is that fair? The level 10 slash follow up has 5 more defense bonus than hib level 50 pierce is that fair?

4. I think looking at spell debuffs and comparing them to melee haste debuffs is actually a pretty good example of why I have an issue with ASRs existing on any time and frontal chains.

The fundamental issue with your approach is that you assume other forum members have an obsession with a particular realm like you do. This assumption informs every argument you make as well as your impression of others’ motives. Instead of attempting an objective discussion of mechanics, each thread is perceived as a battleground wherein players are trying to wrest power from the other realms while preserving their own.

This isn’t geopolitics. It’s a twenty year old MMORPG.

1. I'm not using the example to dismiss anything. I'm giving a comparable example showing hib 50 pierce style isn't that unique as the biggest complaint from others on this style chain is the defense bonus and close second was the ASR. I don't know if you know but blades has ALWAYS hadl 30% asr anytime follow up at lvl 39 and no ones complaining there.

2. You saying it's too strong obviously means you want it nerfed, correct? I'm pointing out similar styles and showing that they really aren't that far off what you're complaining about and at much lower levels. I understand you're maybe advocating for all anytime/frontal asr to be reduced and I don't have much of a problem with that. Others have been focusing just on this style in this thread so maybe I'm not only speaking specifically to you?

3. I agree with you here. Maybe my defense of this chain has come off too strong but only because people are obviously going overboard with how strong they are making it seem saying it's "unbeatable" lol.. ridiculous.... I won't say it shouldn't be toned down but if it gets to the point that it's useless then I think it would be a shame.

4. In general I don't have a problem with it. Maybe it should have lower % delves I would be okay with that. 30% is high but acting like 30% is unwarranted on a 50 style with current asr% of other styles is just a bad argument seeing there are lvl 8/10 frontal/anytimes on other realms with 21%asr non-followup...

I also don't exactly have an obsession with hib but I think the lack of love given at the beginning of the server to hob classes vs the other two realms just brought my defensiveness up from the beginning. Now they have buffed hib, in mostly ways no one asked for, I'm still disappointed but I can't say that there's no hib love anymore at the very least. This style changed helped most melee classes on all realms, but I can see a bit of how it favored hib a bit more than the others in general but not specifically and not by a lot.

Wed 23 Jun 2021 2:57 PM by Dunga

Saroi wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:35 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:30 PM
Reduced damage values for BS2 (from 1430 to 1340 (typo?)) and PA ( from 1826 to 1602 ), combined with the reduced attack range ... interesting choice.

That is something that is needed and that was discussed in the overhaul #1. THe styles are from Live and the PA/Backstab 2 there does more damage than it does now. But here on this server, Enervating poison hits before PA/Backstab, so you lose HP from poison and then get damage. Me as a Warrior is getting 1k damage loss from this.

With the higher damage on PA/Backstab 2 would be even worse and probably in oneshotting casters.

hi,
i highlighted the part i want to know more about and hope someone can help me

Does enervating still only count befor pa/bs or does also the new stealth styles from sword, pierce, thrust (the one at lvl3 wich has to be performed while stealthed) come into play?

ty

Wed 23 Jun 2021 5:20 PM by PoisonClovers

critical strike styles need more attention then just negating the chains. the line is all but useless basically with this rework.

Thu 24 Jun 2021 2:44 PM by Abattoir

Greeting a 404 on the style overview link.

Any help?

Thu 24 Jun 2021 3:09 PM by Sepplord

Abattoir wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jun 2021 2:44 PM
Greeting a 404 on the style overview link.

Any help?

just use the "normal" charplaner now

since the change is live now, the normal charplaner is showing the new styles, and the provisional planner doesn't work anymore

Fri 25 Jun 2021 6:18 AM by Ceen

Again we end up that the loudest cry babies aka "solo" players argue about ASR values or after enemy parries mechanic no one cares about.

Fri 25 Jun 2021 6:55 AM by Noashakra

Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jun 2021 6:18 AM
Again we end up that the loudest cry babies aka "solo" players argue about ASR values or after enemy parries mechanic no one cares about.

How does that affect you in anyway, we all know you are a 2 buttons spammer.
Why being a cry baby yourself about it when it doesn't affect you.
Let the good player who want complexity in their gameplay give their opinions about those changes, it's the aime of this thread. You can go away now.

Fri 25 Jun 2021 7:42 AM by Astaa

Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jun 2021 6:18 AM
Again we end up that the loudest cry babies aka "solo" players argue about ASR values or after enemy parries mechanic no one cares about.

Maybe we should all just anytime spam like the zergers. 2 buttons for every class. Keep it simple.

Fri 25 Jun 2021 8:34 AM by Ceen

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jun 2021 6:55 AM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jun 2021 6:18 AM
Again we end up that the loudest cry babies aka "solo" players argue about ASR values or after enemy parries mechanic no one cares about.

Why being a cry baby yourself about it when it doesn't affect you.

If ten people make as much noise as 100 staff might listen to them and that's not in my interest.
Styles have to be balanced for group not for some solo snow flakes.
So they should focus on snares and stun styles not the useless toys you are asking for.

Fri 25 Jun 2021 8:48 AM by Noashakra

Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jun 2021 8:34 AM
If ten people make as much noise as 100 staff might listen to them and that's not in my interest.
Styles have to be balanced for group not for some solo snow flakes.
So they should focus on snares and stun styles not the useless toys you are asking for.

Parry style are not used in group/bg by the majority of the players, Why the fuck does it bother you? The biggest impact if for solo, something you do anyway.
And it's exactly what you try to do, make noise alone for 100 LMAO.

Anyway it's the style feedback, and they give feedback about styles, you can stfu now. Dev will decide what's important for them or not, they don't need you for that.

Fri 25 Jun 2021 9:43 AM by Tyrlaan

Just got to respec a couple of my Alb characters yesterday and things I noticed:

With the loss of the anytime snare and other special styles, Polearm just looks like another Twohanded spec. Side and rear snares leading into stuns. Which is a pattern also seen on LW (by making Annihilation 2nd in chain after a snare) and the dualwield specs (DW/CD/LA), though the later you can combine with 1h style lines so you usually have a choice of a direct side/rear snare or stun. Polearm and Twohanded still restrict to and require to spec for one damage type and for their restriction, they gain less damage than LW while gaining nothing over LW.

Slash lost its Amethyst/Diamond Slash chain and gained nothing for it.
Thrust kept the chain off a no-damage detaunt but removed the snare - WTF.
Crush is solid I guess, I only ever used it for the taunt/stun combo while levelling. It has the same damage on its side chain as Hib has on its Pierce anytimer chain.

Fri 25 Jun 2021 10:27 AM by Blitze

From my Albion perspective:

Polearm losing anytime snare
Thrust losing long duration snare
Friar Staff losing good anytime taunt

All of the above were spec defining styles and losing them has taking some of the soul out the specclines.

Fri 25 Jun 2021 10:29 AM by boridi

Blitze wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jun 2021 10:27 AM
From my Albion perspective:

Polearm losing anytime snare
Thrust losing long duration snare
Slash losing Amethyst
Friar Staff losing good anytime taunt

All of the above were spec defining styles and losing them has taking some of the soul out the specclines.

Friars are shedding a lot of tears over their taunt while spamming their blizzard blade-equivalent

Fri 25 Jun 2021 10:32 AM by Blitze

Yea, i did not pick a Friar so i could play like a VW

Fri 25 Jun 2021 11:11 AM by Tyrlaan

He has a point though. I respecced my Friar to 49 Enh, 33 Rej, 29 Staff (gotta use the free respecs, eh) and even by staying a Rej Friar, I would be able to spam that BB proc. Way too early in the staff line IMO and should be reserved for Staff Friars. That means it would have to be lvl 39+ (since the former 45 Enh, 34 Rej, 34 Staff was still mostly a Rej Friar with 34 staff for combined 51+ and the 2nd snare).

OTOH Friars lost their low evade stun chain and anytime ASR. Dunno why, really. They even made fun while levelling.

In general Staff and Flex seem to be winners. The other Alb style lines lost all their appeal to me.

Fri 25 Jun 2021 12:55 PM by Blitze

Kinda

Friars have lost
Anytime ASR,
sidesnare
evadesnare
evadestun
most importantly their good anytime taunt.

Instead they now have
Anytime combo u need to lose red self buffs for
Parry ASR
Parry stun
Sidestun
Side DPS

its not much of a net-win aside from the sidestyle high DPS proc, which the specc is now completely built around... like a bloody VW

Sat 26 Jun 2021 7:28 AM by labra

my friar syles feels for now

After Evade (lvl 25 & 44 styles)
lvl 44 style should get an incentive to spec this high. The lvl 29 proc should be fine there as it would be a second style from an evade opening chain.

After Parry (lvl 8 & 39 styles)
fine, the level 39 stun will require a bit of luck and/or parry investment.

Anytimer
lvl 1 style: the bleed effect is 13dmg. I agree it's something futile at lvl 50 rvr but at low level I feel it quite imbalanced. I'd align the bleed effect to others styles bleed level (like 4dmg).

level 34 & 50 chain
getting to lvl50 style require too much sacrifice. I doubt many friars will get it.
I have no solution to suggest.

Positional: Back (lvl 18 style)
Fine

Positional: Side (lvl 15 & 29 styles)
remove the dd proc from lvl 29 style and put it at lvl 44
maybe replace it by a moderate ASR

Edit: the level 29 proc is way too high. I'd cut it in half at least

Sun 27 Jun 2021 6:28 PM by Kaldoris

I like those constructive comments on friar. Changes from whining posts

Little question here, does the recent changes in melee distances affected asp style from reaver too ? Cause without it this style is pointless and it seemed to me that I couldn't use it like before, always too far away.

Sun 27 Jun 2021 6:55 PM by Forlornhope

Kaldoris wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Jun 2021 6:28 PM
I like those constructive comments on friar. Changes from whining posts

Little question here, does the recent changes in melee distances affected asp style from reaver too ? Cause without it this style is pointless and it seemed to me that I couldn't use it like before, always too far away.

Pretty sure asp, and its long range has been removed. I'm pretty sure it's a rear snare now?

Sun 27 Jun 2021 9:52 PM by Leafus

You guys really intended reactive and side styles to be able to 1 or 2 shot people not including procs? Seriously? I’m totally fine if you just say “yep” that’s a legitimate answer. Lag draggers and run through and nostromos all required. That’s cool.

Sun 27 Jun 2021 10:00 PM by Kaldoris

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Jun 2021 6:55 PM
Kaldoris wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Jun 2021 6:28 PM
I like those constructive comments on friar. Changes from whining posts

Little question here, does the recent changes in melee distances affected asp style from reaver too ? Cause without it this style is pointless and it seemed to me that I couldn't use it like before, always too far away.

Pretty sure asp, and its long range has been removed. I'm pretty sure it's a rear snare now?

Oh my goodness, youre right Asp has become a detaunt... explains a lot. What a noob i am

next time I'll read better before juste putting an old known icon in my qbar.

Tue 29 Jun 2021 6:19 AM by inoeth

is there any ETA on the next iteration?

Tue 29 Jun 2021 5:11 PM by nono31

Can DW for infi got a ASR on evade like CD or LA ?

Can you move hibernia piercing combo 34/50 ASR 30% on a detaunt chain or side chain like other realms ?
Can you consider this combo damages are highter than CS garrote/death door ?

Wed 30 Jun 2021 2:47 PM by Greenangel

Why was bleed removed from level 29 thrust style Pierce on Mercnary there is not many Thrust mercs out there for this to make huge differnce in most combat situations dont get that.

Also why do some duelwield syles seem slower is it just due new animations or something to do with new Melee range.
I noticed no slow down speed on my thrust styles .

But to me the rear duewield styles seem very slow or little buggy on my targets in rvr where on test dummys i notice they seem fine

Wed 30 Jun 2021 3:47 PM by Ceen

I wonder if there would have been the same outcry if the style review would have been the other way around inventing the old styles.
People would have complained that armsman has best snare and class x gets this which no one else gets and that they can not play like this.

Thu 1 Jul 2021 2:38 AM by Nephamael

I wonder if there would have been the same outcry if the style review would have been the other way around inventing the old styles.
People would have complained that armsman has best snare and class x gets this which no one else gets and that they can not play like this.

I think most players expected a "classic" approach with an innovative touch.

So far classic elements have been removed from most classes completely, which is a big problem for a server, that has a playerbase that loves convenient immensely
qol-improved, well balanced classic DaoC, as Phoenix created it pre style overhaul.

Thu 1 Jul 2021 7:18 AM by Sepplord

classic daoc is long gone on phoenix, and staff has multiple times said that classic 1.65 was only a starting point

There have been so many changes, globally impacting everyone and individual changes to classes, the server did not have many similarities with classic anymore long before the style changes (and that's okay imo). I am surpised that someone would assume the style-change to take a classic approach, when the announcement pretty much stated what they will use as starting point and then tweak a bit...

RvR-tasks, NewFrontier, no buffbots, streak-protection, shroomcaps, multi-debuffs, poison application, LOS-PBAE, TWF-adjustments, NS-heals, newRAs, i could go on and on for quite some time listing big changes, and i haven't even started thinking about individual class changes

I don't believe the "that's not classic"-argument has much weight anymore.
If someone quits NOW because of "the game isn't classic enough anymore" i would assume they were lying to themselves. Either about the reason to quit now, or about how classic the server still was before the style changes

Thu 1 Jul 2021 7:42 AM by Ceen

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Jul 2021 7:18 AM
RvR-tasks, NewFrontier, no buffbots, streak-protection, shroomcaps, multi-debuffs, poison application, LOS-PBAE, TWF-adjustments, NS-heals, newRAs, i could go on and on for quite some time listing big changes, and i haven't even started thinking about individual class changes

Well at least for me the mile stones for not playing anything like classic daoc anymore are combined debuffs / base line nukes and style changes.
The other stuff was already used on Uthgard or just a minor customization.

Fri 2 Jul 2021 9:07 AM by Astaa

It has never been billed as a classic server, they just used 1.65 as a base.

Sat 3 Jul 2021 4:01 AM by Nephamael

I don't believe the "that's not classic"-argument has much weight anymore.
If someone quits NOW because of "the game isn't classic enough anymore" i would assume they were lying to themselves. Either about the reason to quit now, or about how classic the server still was before the style changes

After-enemy-block/parry is coming back, the world is saved, all is good

If we see similar changes to other classes, bringing back some "classic" flavor i am very positive about the future.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 2:04 AM by Nephamael

I thought it would be fixed fast but wasn't so far, so i'll point at it:

Right now there are some anytimers that are better than positionals and reactionaries.

The style-foodchain as it should be imho:

from low to high dmg:

(lowest)
-Anytime
-Frontal
-Anytime Followup
-Frontal Followup
-Positional (side/back)
-Reactionary
-Reactionary/Positional (side/back) Followup
(highest)

On top of that all reactionary openers should have neutral or positive defense bonuses, as you just "defended" a blow = better defense and they are the hardest requirement.

Fri 9 Jul 2021 1:40 AM by SB1999

Please make VW front snare, part 2 of a 2 part chain, i can live with that, but currently being repeatedly and constantly snared, kited and nuked down at will and not being able to do anything about it is just silly, I have RA parry 6 and there is still no way to defend it.

and the 150 delve proc 50 style thats for 300 is equally silly on a front chain, but ill pick my battles with just stick with the snare

Fri 9 Jul 2021 8:24 AM by Blitze

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 2:04 AM
I thought it would be fixed fast but wasn't so far, so i'll point at it:

Right now there are some anytimers that are better than positionals and reactionaries.

The style-foodchain as it should be imho:

from low to high dmg:

(lowest)
-Anytime
-Frontal
-Anytime Followup
-Frontal Followup
-Positional (side/back)
-Reactionary
-Reactionary/Positional (side/back) Followup
(highest)

On top of that all reactionary openers should have neutral or positive defense bonuses, as you just "defended" a blow = better defense and they are the hardest requirement.

I've come to realise that i do not agree with a universal style-foodchain at all... I liked that Reavers had great Backstyle and VWs a great side-chain, both of which at the cost of having poor anytimes/frontals. I liked that Friar had a great anytime at the cost of good positionals.. etc....

Sat 10 Jul 2021 2:40 AM by Nephamael

I've come to realise that i do not agree with a universal style-foodchain at all... I liked that Reavers had great Backstyle and VWs a great side-chain, both of which at the cost of having poor anytimes/frontals. I liked that Friar had a great anytime at the cost of good positionals.. etc....

Special styles that break the general rule are totally ok and add uniqueness and flavor, the general rule should be true for all classes that have no such unique styles tho.

And right now that general rule is completely broken for a lot of characters, often favoring a playstyle of pressing exactly 1 button = the anytimer.

Sat 10 Jul 2021 6:14 AM by averok83

Remove the backsnare style on friars killed the solo roaming friars Life.

Atm no nway for a friar to avoid opponents to escape from the combat to survive, take distance , kite and kill you Easy.

Classes that become hard or unkillable for a friar :

Wardens using twf , could Easy kite you , heal and return to combat full Life or leave the combat.
Champions using snare style could kite use First Aid and rerurn to combat so in case they could have 3 Life bar.
Skalds could Easy mezz and snare you and get out of combat use First Aid and return to fight or kill you with kite DD , and if you finally reach them , they could snare you again and leave.
Shadowblades or Nightsgades , using disease , could get out of combat Easy w/o use vanish.
Shamans ( lol ) become unckillable at all , they use pbaoe disease and if you reach them w/o a snare style, they kite you for ethernity and dot , root you till death.
Bonedancers with casting snare Pets , could Easy kite you and mono-button LT you to death.
Enchanters with sbarre pet , same of bonedancers ..
Eldritch , could Easy do a stare DD on you and kite you , no way whev you are in melee to avoid the escape..
VW could snare with the cast , kite and drain you too.

The side style snare could be good in group as rej spec , for peel ppls.
But in train assist or for the solo Life , remove the backsnare broken the friar too much.

The other changes done could be ok, Just Need to test them.

Atm the real big problem Is the snare style , this impact too much in fights mechanics.

Averox

Sat 10 Jul 2021 8:50 AM by MeatBicycle

averok83 wrote: ↑
Sat 10 Jul 2021 6:14 AM
Remove the backsnare style on friars killed the solo roaming friars Life.

Atm no nway for a friar to avoid opponents to escape from the combat to survive, take distance , kite and kill you Easy.

Classes that become hard or unkillable for a friar :

Wardens using twf , could Easy kite you , heal and return to combat full Life or leave the combat.
Champions using snare style could kite use First Aid and rerurn to combat so in case they could have 3 Life bar.
Skalds could Easy mezz and snare you and get out of combat use First Aid and return to fight or kill you with kite DD , and if you finally reach them , they could snare you again and leave.
Shadowblades or Nightsgades , using disease , could get out of combat Easy w/o use vanish.
Shamans ( lol ) become unckillable at all , they use pbaoe disease and if you reach them w/o a snare style, they kite you for ethernity and dot , root you till death.
Bonedancers with casting snare Pets , could Easy kite you and mono-button LT you to death.
Enchanters with sbarre pet , same of bonedancers ..
Eldritch , could Easy do a stare DD on you and kite you , no way whev you are in melee to avoid the escape..
VW could snare with the cast , kite and drain you too.

The side style snare could be good in group as rej spec , for peel ppls.
But in train assist or for the solo Life , remove the backsnare broken the friar too much.

The other changes done could be ok, Just Need to test them.

Atm the real big problem Is the snare style , this impact too much in fights mechanics.

Averox

It's the same with many other classes, even with a backsnare. Especially ranged vs melee without range rupt has always been easy to kite. For example minstrels with cast pet or scout with the stupid shield root/snare. It's just not balanced to 1on1 and apparently not wanted to be.

Sat 10 Jul 2021 10:04 AM by Blitze

Yea just soloed a bit and the loss of the Friar backsnare lost me two fights. Shaman & Ranger.

The DD and stun on the evade chain over side chain is a good change.

Swapping out the healproc buff for heals on backstyle chain is better for PvE but worse for solo & probably worse for 8man RvR (and I only ran the lvl 16 buff as a solo), could be better for 2-5man.

Needing 50staff for a decent anytime chain is still very meh.

—I’m running 50staff 35enhance 22parry 11rejuv atm.

Sat 10 Jul 2021 7:39 PM by Nephamael

Yea just soloed a bit and the loss of the Friar backsnare lost me two fights. Shaman & Ranger.

The DD and stun on the evade chain over side chain is a good change.

Swapping out the healproc buff for heals on backstyle chain is better for PvE but worse for solo & probably worse for 8man RvR (and I only ran the lvl 16 buff as a solo), could be better for 2-5man.

Needing 50staff for a decent anytime chain is still very meh.

—I’m running 50staff 35enhance 22parry 11rejuv atm.

Could we just put the spreadheal on the Backstyle Followup and make it bigger value, while keeping the opener a snare?

Same for Warden pls.

Would be the only way for both classes to be viable as weapon/nurt/enhance for 8v8.

Sun 11 Jul 2021 5:08 AM by averok83

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sat 10 Jul 2021 7:39 PM
Yea just soloed a bit and the loss of the Friar backsnare lost me two fights. Shaman & Ranger.

The DD and stun on the evade chain over side chain is a good change.

Swapping out the healproc buff for heals on backstyle chain is better for PvE but worse for solo & probably worse for 8man RvR (and I only ran the lvl 16 buff as a solo), could be better for 2-5man.

Needing 50staff for a decent anytime chain is still very meh.

—I’m running 50staff 35enhance 22parry 11rejuv atm.

Could we just put the spreadheal on the Backstyle Followup and make it bigger value, while keeping the opener a snare?

Same for Warden pls.

Would be the only way for both classes to be viable as weapon/nurt/enhance for 8v8.

Totally Agree.

Thu 15 Jul 2021 9:30 AM by evert

So any reason thanes don't get the after-enemy-X styles? Should be restricted to either LW or CS and pole, or given to thanes too (and arguably skalds but I can see why not).

Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:15 AM by inoeth

evert wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Jul 2021 9:30 AM
So any reason thanes don't get the after-enemy-X styles? Should be restricted to either LW or CS and pole, or given to thanes too (and arguably skalds but I can see why not).

hammer time! seal clubber! (is that politically correct?) lul those style names

Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:02 AM by

gruenesschaf

evert wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Jul 2021 9:30 AM
So any reason thanes don't get the after-enemy-X styles? Should be restricted to either LW or CS and pole, or given to thanes too (and arguably skalds but I can see why not).

Reasoning is that thanes kind of have their thematically fitting toys via the style dds already. Compare that to pala or champ who are largely physical with just supporting bling bling.

Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:19 AM by evert

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:02 AM
evert wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Jul 2021 9:30 AM
So any reason thanes don't get the after-enemy-X styles? Should be restricted to either LW or CS and pole, or given to thanes too (and arguably skalds but I can see why not).

Reasoning is that thanes kind of have their thematically fitting toys via the style dds already. Compare that to pala or champ who are largely physical with just supporting bling bling.

And skalds? Poor Midgard, not enough hybrids, no healing hybrids, even the thane procs are way worse than vw/reaver.

Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:30 AM by Astaa

Sure, give skalds the new styles and take away their speed and CC.

My lord!

Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:39 AM by evert

Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:30 AM
Sure, give skalds the new styles and take away their speed and CC.

My lord!

And take away end from pallies and snare and debuffs from champs, amirite? Or it’s only hib and alb classes that are allowed to have abilities?

Im 100% fine with these styles as a heavy tank ability, but giving them to an extra class on two realms and not the third is just ??????

Thu 15 Jul 2021 5:31 PM by Steelcurtain28

The new styles Today are cool and all BUT I wish my follow up's for if they block, evade, parry was an ASR and not a 9-sec stun

9 sec is pointless for a follow-up on those if all tanks on alb have a slam. Mid gets a 30% asr but not alb? Least make the follow-up useful for alb two hand and Polearm. The bleed is nice but a 9-sec stun for a follow-up on if the block or evade is pointless JS.

Thu 15 Jul 2021 5:33 PM by Steelcurtain28

evert wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:39 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:30 AM
Sure, give skalds the new styles and take away their speed and CC.

My lord!

And take away end from pallies and snare and debuffs from champs, amirite? Or it’s only hib and alb classes that are allowed to have abilities?

Im 100% fine with these styles as a heavy tank ability, but giving them to an extra class on two realms and not the third is just ??????

Come on don't hate on the pally we already don't get love at all we are like wardens the black sheep of daoc

Thu 15 Jul 2021 5:57 PM by Bradekes

Steelcurtain28 wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Jul 2021 5:33 PM
evert wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:39 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:30 AM
Sure, give skalds the new styles and take away their speed and CC.

My lord!

And take away end from pallies and snare and debuffs from champs, amirite? Or it’s only hib and alb classes that are allowed to have abilities?

Im 100% fine with these styles as a heavy tank ability, but giving them to an extra class on two realms and not the third is just ??????

Come on don't hate on the pally we already don't get love at all we are like wardens the black sheep of daoc

Pallies have got a lot. No joke.