Scouts - Phoenix Freeshard

Dear Phoenix team.

I think you are doing a fantastic job at maintaining balance between the different classes across the board.

However, I think that you need to look into the Scout class, I have been playing scout solo for the last 5-6 months, and I LOVE the class, it is however the underdog en 8 out of 10 fights.

Any other stealther, can kill you as a scout, Rangers melee you down, and while you slam/stop/run they will turn and shoot at you before you get a chance to load your bow.

I am not saying that scout is unplayable, but your sole target is pretty much casters, and some of the heavy fighters where you can kite them.

My post here is just a request to beef them up in someway, remove the nerf on bow damage for example, or add something for them melee wise that will make them viable.

Scout pretty much only have one spec that you can run, and that's 50 bow, 45 shield, 35 stealth 15 weapon.

If you go less bow, you nerf your bow damage, you need the shield to maintain a chance of blocking and stopping the enemy from pounding you, as your melee damage is so bad its just really not worth it.

Please, help out the scouts, do something for them to make ppl want to play this wonderful class. '

/K

Tue 27 Apr 2021 9:13 AM by Astaa

If only they had some sort of melee snare that has zero immunity.

Tue 27 Apr 2021 9:33 AM by Klasker

Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Apr 2021 9:13 AM
If only they had some sort of melee snare that has zero immunity.

Absolutly, and that works great on 2-3 classes, except by the time you have run out of range, turn and shoot you can pop 2-3 shots as rapid fire, and they are on you again. and by the time you attempt to do it again, you are out of end.

Tue 27 Apr 2021 9:42 AM by Blitze

Archers are really really hard to balance. The Devs have tried many times... but the major issue is that their playstyle is best suited to two things...
1) /assisting and insta killing solos as part of a group of archers.
2) adding small fights

—— & both of these play styles are widely hated by everyone.

So Phoenix tried balancing them to be good at 1v1 with more Bow damage. This made them better and they got a few more kills, especially rangers. However, it also made the group of archers playstyle even more oppressive/toxic. Hence, the outcry and nerf.

Basically, Archers need some changes/buffs that improve the class without adding to the two toxic play styles (mentioned above).

I don’t play archers much so don’t have many suggestions. Here’s some

1. Remove AF buff from buffpotions and possibly give scout self AF in shield line.
2. Increase melee damage of high melee specs!
3. Lower arrow damage when shooting a target in melee combat*
4. Lower arrow damage if /assist shooting*
5. After 3&4 maybe Buff archery damage.
6. Try adding trip/snare/debuff/pbaoe/dot arrows

*e.g. when someone is shot by an arrow or meleed they get a 1.5s (or whatevers sensible) buff called flinching, this lowers archery dmg by 75%.

Tue 27 Apr 2021 11:39 AM by Klasker

Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Apr 2021 9:42 AM
Archers are really really hard to balance. The Devs have tried many times... but the major issue is that their playstyle is best suited to two things...
1) /assisting and insta killing solos as part of a group of archers.
2) adding small fights

—— & both of these play styles are widely hated by everyone.

So Phoenix tried balancing them to be good at 1v1 with more Bow damage. This made them better and they got a few more kills, especially rangers. However, it also made the group of archers playstyle even more oppressive/toxic. Hence, the outcry and nerf.

Basically, Archers need some changes/buffs that improve the class without adding to the two toxic play styles (mentioned above).

I don’t play archers much so don’t have many suggestions. Here’s some

1. Remove AF buff from buffpotions and possibly give scout self AF in shield line.
2. Increase melee damage of high melee specs!
3. Lower arrow damage when in shooting a target in melee combat*
4. Lower arrow damage if /assist shooting*
5. After 3&4 maybe Buff archery damage.
6. Try adding trip/snare/debuff/pbaoe/dot arrows

*e.g. when someone is shot by an arrow or meleed they get a 1.5s (or whatevers sensible) buff called flinching, this lowers archery dmg by 75%.

That is some great suggestions, I just think something should be done, and I understand that it is very difficult to balance.

I particular like your suggestion on the flinching buff, that would make it harder for the 8 man ranger parties, tbh. I've never meet one of those groups on alb.

Tue 27 Apr 2021 5:09 PM by Symptomettes

There is tons of problems atm that make scout the underdog by far :

First and the biggest problem of all : the variance damage... Rng is killing the class tbh. We are a kiting class, it takes already age to kill someone and this variance is a real nightmare most of the fight... It's not a problem when you play in group or in an assist train of scout (that litteraly doesn't exist on alb). So i'm still asking why gm did that change to us ?! I'm playing 50+20 bow and having a normal shot to a 5L nuker without relic for 64 damage+64 damage absorb (-50% cause of bt) is a real joke... So rng make me hit for 256 (3.1 sec for 64 damage !). Archer class are supposed to have some spike damage but then cause of that most of the time it doesn't. We just have to pray when you see someone inc to get lucky in your dice rolls ! Seriously, it's already hard enough to kill someone without getting add and still you need to have rng on your side. At least when variance wasn't there you knew from the begining if killing someone was possible. Now it's totaly random.

I understand that melee grp (GvG elitist) need spike damage, but remoove it from archery damage... It has never been a thing on DAOC ! It's like nukers, the more points you put in it, the less variance you get. And it should work like that too. It would be even more beneficial vs archer zerg since it will reduce the chance to get a oneshot on assist. And i really like the idea given on this topic about a buff that reduce all incoming arrows for 1.4sec for 75% after being hit by an arrow (not 1.5 or it will brake the cap point of rapidfire of 1.5). You can pretty much add anything for all archers class after that since it will kill the archers zerg.

Second : We lack melee but gm give us a great tool at 45 shield : a root/snare. I totaly agree 14 second was OP. 10 seems a bit low now. But i don't mind we can still kite most of the time. The real bitch is the endu cost. If you nerf the duration, at least change the endu cost... Seems totaly fair ?! Since we already got 15% miss on this skill + the avoidance of your target (block / parry / evade or even a bt), we have to cheese straf to hit with it. When i see some other class being totaly brainless in comparaison, reduce endu cost to 25% or even 20 doesn't seem like a game changer at all.

Thrid : Melee damage... Damage table totaly suck for scout, we can just check the 2,3 videos people have posted recently and it will show that without IP 4 / purge it's nearly impossible to kill anything at all. We litteraly have the worst damage from all the toons that have a melee line spec (same as warden and bard maybe but it's not their job). And still, people are playing it cause they love their toon. I won't mind trading my 50 bow to 35 if melee was worth anything. But unfortunately it doesn't.

Scout is not supposed to be played melee. But giving something to us in archery spec to make us a bit more viable in melee wouldn't be a bad idea... I will talk about that later.

Fourth : We lack selfbuff... Haters gonna say : YEAH but you don't have to spend points into Pathfinding or Beastcraft. Ofc we don't have to spend spec points into it, but how much realm points we need to spend to get what rangers have with selfbuff and imbah lurry racial stats ?! Just to compensate the d/q buff we need to spend at least 20 points ra points and we are not even close to what they have in dex and quick.... Doesn't seem legit at all to me when scout is like the worst archers from all. Just to get 1.5 rapid fire : 20 ra points waste ! Nice... 5 ra points to get that for rangers with the right distribution of starting points and the right race. Hunters doesn't need anything to get that with the 5.0 max bow (btw this should be changed too, allowing them to have at least a 5.2. But since they have way better melee damage and pet, 5.0 doesn't feel that bad ?). Let's be real here, scout only got his bow to make damage. Spending 20 points (quick 5 / moarchery 5) to get the same cap speed than others is what we can call a "FUCKING JOKE".

This exemple is for anyone playing scout with a 5.5 bow. So if you don't want to spend that much ra points to get cap, we can still play with a faster one. But then you nerf the maximum damage you can do... Another exemple of how broke we are atm vs others.

And i don't even talk about the self speed that allow hunt and ranger to run away... Yeah but you can root snare. Vs a sin you are dead even before you can land your root sometimes (when i mean dead, fight over cause you can't kite anymore or run away). But i will not beg for that !

Fifth : Overall realm utility... Keep fights, useless. Damage is so bad that it's not even worth hiting someone in a group. The only kill you can get is by targeting people who doesn't seem to be 50 yet. Seriously what's the point in that ? I'm not playing keeps fight cause of this, it's litteraly a waste of time and energy. If i want to kill some people that are not 50 i can go to a relic dock tbh (and most players don't xp in frontiers anymore). If you want to play keep fight as an archer : roll ranger since you get self buff and by that way better overall damage. You can just skip the melee line like power rangers do. We would need a cleric and a theur/wiz to get what they have in one spec line (except base dex). Most of the clerics community will never allow a scout to be in his grp... If by chance i'm pulling someone from Power rangers from that post : scout is the underdog 95% of the time... Try to play scout in a keep fight and land more than two arrows without mooving (vs mid and hib it's nearly impossible without getting stun and insta kill).

Scouts are underpop from a longtime now and don't have their place in keepfights...

GvG fight ? Not even close to get a grp. Except if you want to troll...

Small man stealth ? Seriously just go full shield + melee spec it would be ten times better than hiting with your bow... Your inf and mins with a guard will be way happier than having someone hiting for 250 / 500 on normal shot cause of this rng. And it's super easy to counter an archer.

Solo ? One fight every 15 minutes except if you are high rank and know your class perfectly. And even like that, rng will probably kill you.

Sixth : Small shield... I know dual get a 25% bonus hitrate vs shield user. So we are like the easiest kill a sin can have. Snare, disease dead. Or pray god to have IP4 / purge up everytime. And the sin community is growing bigger with age cause people are tired of the zerg fights or the elitist gvg... And still, there is nothing done for us. We don't even represent 1/7 of the stealth players on prime time (thanks minstrels and rangers for that). If you think that all archers are on the same pedestal, we are not ! Hunter got pet + two hand. Ranger got dual wield + great melee line spec + best self buffs. We got what ? Low 1H damage + small shield ?! Just to get 40% blockrate with 320 dex and 65 shield i need mastery of block 7 vs a dual wielder... And i will probably never win in melee with this anyway...

Give D/Q buff + Spec AF will not change much in melee but will allow scout to get a bit more punch and will maybe allow him to survive one more swing (or two) and maybe compensate a bit more in melee if people need more time to kill us (=more swing for us too). At the moment we have the best avoidance from the three archery class but we are the easiest one to kill during a stun since we have the worst AF. I don't count anymore how many times i was killed on a 7 sec stun from creeping death.

So now what do we need to do or say to get something from the gm community ? I understand that you probably don't care about the solo community. But scouts would be beneficial in keep fights if they were on the same level as rangers or hunters... Giving self D/Q + spec AF buff would allow to get more melee damage if thrust spec and less damage taken from melee damage. And if bow damage is way too much with that buff, you can just nerf us again... But since ranger damage seems legit to you, why not giving the same tool for scout ? Or put the self buffs in archery spec like live ?! You don't want to do anything for us in melee like it was ask numerous time already on forum and discord, but you can probably do something for archery then ? It will not change that much anyway our overall damage and we will still be under ranger cause we don't have the add damage buff...

I rest my case. Thanks and keep the great work you are doing for allowing us to play on Phoenix.

Watika.

Tue 27 Apr 2021 6:36 PM by evert

^^This guy knows what he’s talking about. Buff scouts (never thought I would say that).

Tue 27 Apr 2021 8:07 PM by Symptomettes

evert wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Apr 2021 6:36 PM
^^This guy knows what he’s talking about. Buff scouts (never thought I would say that).

/Kiss !

Play your minstrel

Tue 27 Apr 2021 8:36 PM by DJ2000

How does a Scout intend to cast anything if they don't even have Mana?

Or maybe you are going for Savage-Like selfbuffs?

Tue 27 Apr 2021 9:04 PM by gotwqqd

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Apr 2021 8:36 PM
How does a Scout intend to cast anything if they don't even have Mana?

Or maybe you are going for Savage-Like selfbuffs?

You could give them an ability that boosts combi pot gains to the level desired

Tue 27 Apr 2021 9:09 PM by Centenario

The slow weapon bonus is 0.94+0.03*SPD
In my opinion it should be 0.94+0.59*SPD
Two hand bonus should be the usual 1.10+spec/200
Only scout should have access to 5.5 SPD
Hib and Mid should be maxed at 5.2
Make 1.4 arrow damage immunity work.
Make penetration arrow a shot type like it used to be:
75-50-25% damage reduction; 100% burst bubble shot
Bring back armor type resists to classic rates.
Make armor absorb count as a physical damage reduction: not only as an AF hit/miss metric.

Tue 27 Apr 2021 9:12 PM by easytoremember

Raise the damage pulled from longbow spec and lower the damage pulled from dex on scout. The investment to cut drawtime justifies the higher damage and running cleric buffs does not push them over the top.
No self buffs

Wed 28 Apr 2021 9:51 AM by Jingo NZ

Some utility would be a good way to buff scout/hunter/ranger without tipping the fine balance of stealth and range dmg. Some options below:

Prevent flight mode (like rapid fire)
Toggle = arrows do -50% dmg but will snare enemies if you hit them in rear 180 arc (no immunity like melee snares)

Magic damage ability
Converts your physical damage into spririt/fire
10 sec duration 1 min cooldown

Pet kill ability
Your dmg to rvr pets is increased by 50% for 10 sec (shares same cooldown as above)

Survival skills
Cure self/friendly target of all poisons
350 range
5min cooldown

High level melee spec debuff styles
Weaponskill/con debuff style at high melee spec

Scout could also get 100% guarantee to block next hit
1min cooldown

Wed 28 Apr 2021 10:12 AM by Jingo NZ

Could also give some abilities that can only be used if you've been out of stealth for over 60 sec.

Wed 28 Apr 2021 4:55 PM by coufourier

Entièrement d'accord avec vous , je suis janclode scout 9 L ,j'ai déjà fait des demandes de ce style , jamais de réponse ...ce n'est plus le scout de 2002 , mais j'aime ....Solo c'est impossible de jouer hormis Leech
j'espère que l'on nous écoute.
cordialement
Janclode

Wed 28 Apr 2021 5:00 PM by Siouxsie

Is this an actual 'Ask the Team' post or a 'Suggestions' post?
The suggestions posted here are stupid, but Watika has a point.

Remove the Scout snare ability and get rid of Spec AF buff in the combi pots.
That will sort things out.

Wed 28 Apr 2021 8:29 PM by Centenario

I already deleted my scout, I was too disappointed it is really really bad lol.

I am looking forward to making it again once it’s fixed. Frankly I enjoy solo leveling the scout.

It’s a real waste of time in RvR, if you don’t take task and keepsakes into account solo scout might run at 1k per hour if you are lucky to find somebody afk

I think I got it to 4L0 and then deleted; didn’t test IP or MoB or mêlée scout, just some falcon/augdex/qui and something else. Couldn’t even kill afk ppl in bg, can’t overdamage the spreadheal lol.

No stealthzerg (it’s not my thing, I prefer fair fights)
Some solo bg
Some solo roam I could bet it’s 100% loss.

Thu 29 Apr 2021 5:21 AM by Klasker

Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Apr 2021 8:29 PM
I already deleted my scout, I was too disappointed it is really really bad lol.

I am looking forward to making it again once it’s fixed. Frankly I enjoy solo leveling the scout.

It’s a real waste of time in RvR, if you don’t take task and keepsakes into account solo scout might run at 1k per hour if you are lucky to find somebody afk
I think I got it to 4L0 and then deleted; didn’t test IP or MoB or mêlée scout, just some falcon/augdex/qui and something else. Couldn’t even kill afk ppl in bg, can’t overdamage the spreadheal lol.

No stealthzerg (it’s not my thing, I prefer fair fights)
Some solo bg
Some solo roam I could bet it’s 100% loss.

Scout can def. kill stuff solo, even ppl that are in combat

I just got to RR6 last night on my scout, it has taken me ages because I never join zerg on it, I have only soloed on it.

I did a change of my RA's and went a bit lower on aug quick, and got higher MOB and IP2/purge2 that was a real game-changer for me, being able to block much more and having the survivability of IP(didn't have that before).

Thu 29 Apr 2021 8:21 PM by Centenario

I’d prefer to play the old school scout:
Able to pick target 100% from range, meaning killing a caster before he reaches interrupt range.
Dps needs to be around 100 so that of you target a caster in an 8-man group and he is not healed in the time it takes a healer to cast 3 heals he should die.
6sec + draw time from stealth should be death.
For sure the 1.4 sec arrow immunity should be in place before the dps boost.
Maybe also implement a mechanic to reduce arrow damage by 20% per enemies the target is engaged in combat with in order to prevent spike damage in team fights from adding/leeching archers.
I think caster Survivability is way too high.
The ABsorb buff (casted) is reducing damage more than plate armor...

Mon 3 May 2021 3:50 PM by Symptomettes

We were the only class able to get the damage bonus offer by armor vulnerability from the choice of arrows but since it was nerfed, we lost 5% damage. And if we add that with the numerous nerfs we already get from the archery change, it's almost if nothing were given to us. Gm reworked stealth from classic but didn't give anything to archers (My bad : Stop was implemented for scout) when almost everything were done to make sins unbeatable in a 1v1 (and the list is FUCKING LONG : WS/C debuff, viper, MOS, PA Damage rework for WS/C debuff, Alchimist envenom, skill gap with switch is insane, Nf Purge 15/5 min timer, vanish), except if rng is with you. We just have to check sins videos to see how archers are just free kills for them. It should be relevant for you gms that works for balance here. We are supposed to be strong vs some classes, but now we are just garbage toon that needs to depend from others to get worthy of anything. It's impossible to kill a nuker if his reaction is fast enough... Temp characters just have to run away and use the healing pot + legion to stop the fight since we can't catch someone running away from us. Only cause of the QQing about archery. Our voice represent a small part of the players so majority wins... Nobody wants an archer in his group so we have to play solo or small man stealth. It's fun to see whiners QQing about archery being only an add part of the game when those same people will zerg anything and add every fights. But archers doesn't have the same logic applying to them ! Since we can add everything we want from long range, it's not the same as a solo nuker since we can stealth... But it's the same. Being a stealth and add is the same as a visible that add, same conclusion. So now can we talk about the fact that zerg kills 8 man group. And 8 man group killing small man. And small man killing solo ? So archers should have the right to add as everyone do ? Instead, people wants their fair fight shit. And still there is no nerf for those type of players when archers gets it.

Do what i say, but not what i'm doing !

And the best of all : RNG. How dumb it is to have a rapid fire (1.5sec) hiting for more than a normal shot (3.1sec) when crit or a normal shot (3.1 sec) hiting for more than a crit shot (3.8sec) with a crit... Remoove this feature for all archers ! It's killing us big times... There is no logic in that and it should be reworked.

Even if people asked for it, It makes no sense since we are like nukers and have to cast/load to make damage... So having a bow line maximised is like a nuker line with no point in it, you will get variance on it except than we can do more damage than the original numbers if rng is on our side only. Sounds like something is totaly wrong here ! Rupt is working in the same way than them. Allow us to work like them for our damage too. We already have so little compared to others, don't make things more difficult as it is already.

More than 5 posts were already made asking for a change and we still wait for a miracle to happens for our beloved class. I will not change my scout for anything but sometimes it's really frustrating to play an underdog class when everything is done for others. I'm not asking of a full rework to get god mod... But at least make something for us to compete in the stealth war or for keep fights, we can't do anything else anyway. Why giving all the tools for a type of class when it litteraly breaks the balance between them. Sins have pretty much the same place than us and you did everything to make the class worthy. Why not us ?! It's not fair to do all those changes for one and not for the rest of the stealthers... You have given EVERYTHING for visible/sins and they benefit a hundred time more of the new NF RA than archers... Why this decision ? If we don't deserve your interest and your times, at least tell us and remoove the featuring of playing an archer if you think we don't need to exist here. Cause it's the feeling you are giving to us when you do nothing at all...

Archers are already hated like no one else in phoenix, people will focus you instead of hiting your target just because you are a leech for them... It's hard enough to play it, and the server and the state of the class make it even worse. Nevertheless, i'm still hoping something at every patch for us ! Even a line...

The real answer wasn't to nerf overall archery damage but instead implement a reducing arrow damage buff after taking a hit from it to make archers zerg less toxic in every situation possible. Now we just have a really small minority of archers soloing and the rest doing small man zerg or even full grp to keep fights. Doesn't give any interest at all for the class except making archers playing in a more toxic way vs the rest of the community cause of the lack of possibility to compete vs others.

We can't consider anymore archery class as something dangerous... We are just free rps for others.

Just an answer on the topic to know if we are hoping for something that will never happens would be nice. At least we are trying to give arguments/facts and ideas to make the class enjoyable. Thanks for reading me, have fun and take care.

Watika.

Tue 4 May 2021 1:03 AM by Kwall0311

Increase melee dmg table, add higher/gr spec thrust anytimer, change beartooth/riposte to bleed instead of stun. Add ASR to baseline slash.

Class fixed.

Tue 4 May 2021 9:18 AM by Tommylad

Interesting that a lot of people who played Scouts on Live, soon realised that on Phoenix, Scouts were junk and played Infis instead. The volley nerf should really show people that Archers on Phoenix are beyond salvation. For Devs to say that they wanted to encourage people NOT to play Rangers is kind of insulting to those who took the time to level and temp and hone their game play. But there you go, Phoenix does seem to be changing into a Pound Shop/Dime Store WoW.....and to those that complain about Archers adding etc.........the reason why is right here in all the comments about what needs to be done to save Archers. But like I said, the Archer class is pretty much beyond saving at this time on Phoenix.

Tue 4 May 2021 9:50 AM by Klasker

Thank you all for your feedback.

I believe that there is a lot of good and valid suggestions in this thread.

My thoughts on archery classes, would be to reduce or remove variance damage for archery damage, increase the damage table for bow damage based on skill points i.e. higher skill higher damage.

Implement penetrating shot again to its original state.

rework the crush/slash/thrust resist table for arrows.

Look again at the caster ABS debuff, atm they absorb equal to or more than plate armor.. seems some what off.

I do not believe that they should increase the melee damage table if they increase the bow damage table.

Watika comes with a lot of valid points, I just hope some of this will change, I love my scout and will not abandon it.

Tue 4 May 2021 10:40 AM by Hattrick

Klasker wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 9:50 AM
Look again at the caster ABS debuff, atm they absorb equal to or more than plate armor.. seems some what off.

You're crazy. Casters with just their personal absorb buff don't mitigate anywhere close to plate. You realize most, if not all, casters can spec PD right?

Tue 4 May 2021 10:50 AM by Klasker

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 10:40 AM
Klasker wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 9:50 AM
Look again at the caster ABS debuff, atm they absorb equal to or more than plate armor.. seems some what off.

You're crazy. Casters with just their personal absorb buff don't mitigate anywhere close to plate. You realize most, if not all, casters can spec PD right?

Thats true, it might be overkill to review the absorb debuff, in my experience on killing casters, is just that my damage is low, i.e. taking off 25-30% on critshot, maybe its due to variance instead.

Tue 4 May 2021 11:28 AM by Hattrick

Klasker wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 10:50 AM
Hattrick wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 10:40 AM
Klasker wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 9:50 AM
Look again at the caster ABS debuff, atm they absorb equal to or more than plate armor.. seems some what off.

You're crazy. Casters with just their personal absorb buff don't mitigate anywhere close to plate. You realize most, if not all, casters can spec PD right?

Thats true, it might be overkill to review the absorb debuff, in my experience on killing casters, is just that my damage is low, i.e. taking off 25-30% on critshot, maybe its due to variance instead.

The more likely explanation is your targets have specced into the RA Physical Defense to some extent and that RA can provide up to 30% resistance against physical damage.

I can tell you from first hand experience that the personal absorb shield is not that great. On my BD last night, I was killed in a single perf chain (3 attacks) by a NS. My BD is not fully temped but does have capped physical resists. I have no points in PD and I was just running pot buffs at the time and I was still killed in 3 attacks. That wouldn't happen if the absorb shield was as good as you think it is.

Mon 10 May 2021 9:52 AM by Centenario

Hattrick wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 11:28 AM
The more likely explanation is your targets have specced into the RA Physical Defense to some extent and that RA can provide up to 30% resistance against physical damage.
I can tell you from first hand experience that the personal absorb shield is not that great. On my BD last night, I was killed in a single perf chain (3 attacks) by a NS. My BD is not fully temped but does have capped physical resists. I have no points in PD and I was just running pot buffs at the time and I was still killed in 3 attacks. That wouldn't happen if the absorb shield was as good as you think it is.

This seems to be what it is supposed to be.
Archer is also supposed to kill a caster in 3-5 arrows, not more.

Tue 11 May 2021 10:44 PM by paqdizzle

TLDR: No Stop/root, give scouts our bow damage back (and not to all 3 realms archery classes, rangers and hunters never did scouts bow damage ever) done. (for scouts) leave out melee how it's been since 2002.. poopy. it was poopy for a reason.... our bow damage was leet.

Personally... This is coming from someone who thought shrouded isles was the prime of DAoC regarding balance and fun.

Scouts were the only archer class that hit as hard as they did with bow because we lacked melee dps and utility, regarding Melee spec. Which is fine because we were supposed to be lethal at range. Now we're kinda meh unless we pick our fights where we know we won't get aggro'ed by players.

Rangers had decent melee and bow, but lacked scouts bow damage, exceeded melee by far, compared to scouts.
Hunters had okay bow damage, and decent melee as well, but a pet to equal it out.

Scouts on phoenix don't need anything special, just our bow damage to be like it was in SI. Scouts rr5+ with 50+ archery should be hitting squishies for 700-900 damage(critshot and half of that for standards or around 450 give or take).
Remove the Stop/root/snare, we didn't have a use for it in SI considering we had great bow damage. We have a shield spec line for numb or slam. if used correctly a numb can burn purges, leaving slam to be full 9 seconds. If played right scouts >should< be lethal, because if ANYONE got on you, chances are, 9-10 you're dead from just auto swings.
Scouts/archers also can't shoot for 5 seconds if they hit armor/shield DD procs.. Our critshots can be evaded, and blocked with high % chances, which would still be fine if we had our bow damage back. but that's another 10 seconds before seeing that type of damage again, in which case you're running for your life half the time.

I've mained a scout since 2002, and Phoenix's version of archery/scouts is very displeasing to play. The damage variance that was in SI, was fixed, so if you hit for 500, chances are your next arrow did 500 unless it was blocked or evaded ofc. this 0-50 or 0-25% is killing it for me. it was never 0-to... it was fixed so your shots were pre-calculated with the 25%. With this variance I've seen 219 damage variance on archery.. I was told several times I'm lying or that's fake, but I've lived it time and time again, I can't be told otherwise. I also have several pictures that were also dismissed as faulty.

I'm not trying to come in here and balance out the whole class system that's in place, I'm just wanting some SI related values.

We don't need Stop, we don't need great melee, we just need our Bow damage to be lethal again. I know I know, "well if they have a group and all assist 1 target...." I know.. But that's how it should be, there is NO synergy with an 8 man of scouts, just DPS... The only thing we have that is superior as an 8man is we can stealth. But here on phoenix there are still several ways to combat against it. SL pots, Near sight, and SHIELDS lol, my warrior has 50 shield, no MoB and still have a 30-40+% chance to block arrows. if I engage it's closer to 90% or over 90% if I have MoB. If a group of 8 warriors all hid somewhere and got the jump on a single target, that target would get deleted too and never saw it coming ( troll stealth.. the ol' turn sideways behind a tree trick ). the meta groups don't set themselves up with block bots specifically for archers, they got peels, Nukes, debuffs for said nukes, cc, heals, and speed. 8man of scouts/archers have 0 speed, 0 heals, 0 cc..

Scouts just need their amazing bow damage back. We sucked with melee and up close and don't want to have great melee to substitute for lack of bow damage. well, I don't

Anyways guys I hope something comes of this otherwise I wasted over a year's worth of time on my scout, got him 9l4 just to bottom out after nerfs/changes. That's one thing I'll never get back.. This server might be free, but Time is something you will never get back. unless you enjoyed whatever you spent that time on.

What sucks is they actually fixed archery at one point then reverted it due to rangers being OP after the archery buff... Which I called, I said they wouldn't fix just scouts, and that archery as a whole would be upped/buffed. sure enough

then because of rangers, they reverted it back to where it's at now. The foresight to know that Rangers were going to be a problem once they get scouts 50 archery benefits was on point

anyways guys hf take care!

Wed 12 May 2021 5:57 AM by gotwqqd

paqdizzle wrote: ↑
Tue 11 May 2021 10:44 PM
TLDR: No Stop/root, give scouts our bow damage back (and not to all 3 realms archery classes, rangers and hunters never did scouts bow damage ever) done. (for scouts) leave out melee how it's been since 2002.. poopy. it was poopy for a reason.... our bow damage was leet.

Personally... This is coming from someone who thought shrouded isles was the prime of DAoC regarding balance and fun.

Scouts were the only archer class that hit as hard as they did with bow because we lacked melee dps and utility, regarding Melee spec. Which is fine because we were supposed to be lethal at range. Now we're kinda meh unless we pick our fights where we know we won't get aggro'ed by players.

Rangers had decent melee and bow, but lacked scouts bow damage, exceeded melee by far, compared to scouts.
Hunters had okay bow damage, and decent melee as well, but a pet to equal it out.

Scouts on phoenix don't need anything special, just our bow damage to be like it was in SI. Scouts rr5+ with 50+ archery should be hitting squishies for 700-900 damage(critshot and half of that for standards or around 450 give or take).
Remove the Stop/root/snare, we didn't have a use for it in SI considering we had great bow damage. We have a shield spec line for numb or slam. if used correctly a numb can burn purges, leaving slam to be full 9 seconds. If played right scouts >should< be lethal, because if ANYONE got on you, chances are, 9-10 you're dead from just auto swings.
Scouts/archers also can't shoot for 5 seconds if they hit armor/shield DD procs.. Our critshots can be evaded, and blocked with high % chances, which would still be fine if we had our bow damage back. but that's another 10 seconds before seeing that type of damage again, in which case you're running for your life half the time.

I've mained a scout since 2002, and Phoenix's version of archery/scouts is very displeasing to play. The damage variance that was in SI, was fixed, so if you hit for 500, chances are your next arrow did 500 unless it was blocked or evaded ofc. this 0-50 or 0-25% is killing it for me. it was never 0-to... it was fixed so your shots were pre-calculated with the 25%. With this variance I've seen 219 damage variance on archery.. I was told several times I'm lying or that's fake, but I've lived it time and time again, I can't be told otherwise. I also have several pictures that were also dismissed as faulty.

I'm not trying to come in here and balance out the whole class system that's in place, I'm just wanting some SI related values.

We don't need Stop, we don't need great melee, we just need our Bow damage to be lethal again. I know I know, "well if they have a group and all assist 1 target...." I know.. But that's how it should be, there is NO synergy with an 8 man of scouts, just DPS... The only thing we have that is superior as an 8man is we can stealth. But here on phoenix there are still several ways to combat against it. SL pots, Near sight, and SHIELDS lol, my warrior has 50 shield, no MoB and still have a 30-40+% chance to block arrows. if I engage it's closer to 90% or over 90% if I have MoB. If a group of 8 warriors all hid somewhere and got the jump on a single target, that target would get deleted too and never saw it coming ( troll stealth.. the ol' turn sideways behind a tree trick ). the meta groups don't set themselves up with block bots specifically for archers, they got peels, Nukes, debuffs for said nukes, cc, heals, and speed. 8man of scouts/archers have 0 speed, 0 heals, 0 cc..

Scouts just need their amazing bow damage back. We sucked with melee and up close and don't want to have great melee to substitute for lack of bow damage. well, I don't

Anyways guys I hope something comes of this otherwise I wasted over a year's worth of time on my scout, got him 9l4 just to bottom out after nerfs/changes. That's one thing I'll never get back.. This server might be free, but Time is something you will never get back. unless you enjoyed whatever you spent that time on.

What sucks is they actually fixed archery at one point then reverted it due to rangers being OP after the archery buff... Which I called, I said they wouldn't fix just scouts, and that archery as a whole would be upped/buffed. sure enough then because of rangers, they reverted it back to where it's at now. The foresight to know that Rangers were going to be a problem once they get scouts 50 archery benefits was on point anyways guys hf take care!

So maybe scouts need higher bow damage?

Wed 12 May 2021 6:36 AM by Sepplord

how is shieldspec "low utility"?

Stop throwing in filler words that semm to sound well just for having the sound in argument. It just distracts from the valid points, and undermines overall credibility

Wed 12 May 2021 7:31 AM by Klasker

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:36 AM
how is shieldspec "low utility"?

Stop throwing in filler words that semm to sound well just for having the sound in argument. It just distracts from the valid points, and undermines overall credibility

Shield in it self brings very little to any fight as a scout, even with high MOB your melee damage is still so low it just doesn't matter, and the bow damage is so low that you will die in 99% of fights you engage if you don't have IP3 and purge up.

Compared to rangers, that do similar damage to scouts with bow, but have the twist of kicking ass with melee as well, scout just seems like the underdog.

I really think that scouts bow damage should be increased.

Wed 12 May 2021 8:54 AM by paqdizzle

Klasker wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 7:31 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:36 AM
how is shieldspec "low utility"?

Stop throwing in filler words that semm to sound well just for having the sound in argument. It just distracts from the valid points, and undermines overall credibility

Shield in it self brings very little to any fight as a scout, even with high MOB your melee damage is still so low it just doesn't matter, and the bow damage is so low that you will die in 99% of fights you engage if you don't have IP3 and purge up.

Compared to rangers, that do similar damage to scouts with bow, but have the twist of kicking ass with melee as well, scout just seems like the underdog.

I really think that scouts bow damage should be increased.

I would be 100% in favor of removing the stop snare/root in replace of getting the original scout damage back. We are supposed to have poopy melee, and low utility, due to having beast bow damage. Except we don't have beast bow damage anymore on phoenix. and when they "Fix" scouts, it'll be to "Archery" as a whole so rangers will still be top archers lol.. well, it's what happened last time. Scouts used to hit for 800 give or take, damage to clothies with Critshot, and around 450-/+ for standards (Being temped rr5, vs other temped squishies) I really hope they fix scouts.. or simply remove that god awful damage variance melee has.. seeing 219 damage differences from crtshot is NOT a dice I want to roll... Nobody would play casters ever, if they had a damage variance of 100, let alone 200..

I know the Devs have to know what DAoC used to be like back in SI. I'm not sure why scouts are being neglected... They promoted their server at one point on facebook, as SI... I remember because that's what got me to play phoenix to begin with. Slowly but surely it's been getting more and more custom to the likes of the current meta groups. ie, casters. the 8man, CC, heals, speed, peels, debuff and dps/nukes... and for hibs, 3 of those utilities are 1 class, and ironically, hibs are the best caster realm. am I the only one who is confused? They HAVE to know what daoc was like before Live ruined it... :/ and I agree with the OP, I am thankful and happy they are even doing this server for free.. But time is never free. My scout is rr 9l4 and since the nerfs, I haven't been on. the most recent damage variance change to melee.. should be fixed 25% not 0-50%.. they said "Do you prefer the original way physical damage variance works" 0-to-50%... but it was never 0-to-50% as the "Original" damage variance.. lol you can google it. when Si launched the damage variance was a fixed value..On Live, it was a fixed value.. Not trying to bash or sound mean... I don't think I am, but that's not right XD "Original" was fixed. Current is 0-50% variance which means any melee get's a dice roll for base damage. so in other words, if you were a warrior and had aug str9 and you hit something, there is a chance that you might hit that target as if you had 0 aug str. Even Euloggie's pally has a 100 damage variance... and we all know Pally DPS needs every last dps.. it just unlevels the playing field for everyone except meta gorup/casters. Assassins only benefit because their debuffs on phoenix are OP.

Wed 12 May 2021 12:02 PM by Astaa

Klasker wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 7:31 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:36 AM
how is shieldspec "low utility"?

Stop throwing in filler words that semm to sound well just for having the sound in argument. It just distracts from the valid points, and undermines overall credibility

Shield in it self brings very little to any fight as a scout, even with high MOB your melee damage is still so low it just doesn't matter, and the bow damage is so low that you will die in 99% of fights you engage if you don't have IP3 and purge up.

Compared to rangers, that do similar damage to scouts with bow, but have the twist of kicking ass with melee as well, scout just seems like the underdog.

I really think that scouts bow damage should be increased.

"As well" ?

It's either or, unless you go hybrid, and then you're average at melee and thanks to the overnerf, useless at bow.

The only way archers will get fixed properly is if by some weird misalignment in the stars they become part of 8v8.

Scouts also have the obvious advantage of being able to block enemy archer damage, hunters can interrupt with the pet, rangers get to stand there like a plank if someone farts in their general direction (but get decent buffs)

Wed 12 May 2021 1:35 PM by Sepplord

Klasker wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 7:31 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:36 AM
how is shieldspec "low utility"?

Stop throwing in filler words that semm to sound well just for having the sound in argument. It just distracts from the valid points, and undermines overall credibility

Shield in it self brings very little to any fight as a scout, even with high MOB your melee damage is still so low it just doesn't matter, and the bow damage is so low that you will die in 99% of fights you engage if you don't have IP3 and purge up.

Compared to rangers, that do similar damage to scouts with bow, but have the twist of kicking ass with melee as well, scout just seems like the underdog.

I really think that scouts bow damage should be increased.

I disagree, shield brings ton of utility in almost every fight that is not a 1vs1
i never said that shieldspecc makes scouts on paar with rangers...

I said that the claim that scouts are low utility is bullshit.
Imo, they have the best utility of all realms archers.

Wed 12 May 2021 2:12 PM by DJ2000

paqdizzle wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 8:54 AM
stuff

When was the last time you actively played on this Server?

Sepplord and Astaa are right.
You're just making stuff up to justify your demand for more DPs...no, more precisely higher Bow Damage.
Higher and bigger than the others, that's what you want. This isn't to balance anything, it's straight up just a "gimme gimme gimme" demand.

Unclear why you try to do this in such a roundabout way, but i can tell you that you will get nowhere arguing like this.

Wed 12 May 2021 3:14 PM by Klasker

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 1:35 PM
Klasker wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 7:31 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:36 AM
how is shieldspec "low utility"?

Stop throwing in filler words that semm to sound well just for having the sound in argument. It just distracts from the valid points, and undermines overall credibility

Shield in it self brings very little to any fight as a scout, even with high MOB your melee damage is still so low it just doesn't matter, and the bow damage is so low that you will die in 99% of fights you engage if you don't have IP3 and purge up.

Compared to rangers, that do similar damage to scouts with bow, but have the twist of kicking ass with melee as well, scout just seems like the underdog.

I really think that scouts bow damage should be increased.
I disagree, shield brings ton of utility in almost every fight that is not a 1vs1
i never said that shieldspecc makes scouts on paar with rangers...

I said that the claim that scouts are low utility is bullshit.
Imo, they have the best utility of all realms archers.

Valid points i will agree with scout not being low on utility, you just have spec options which are very limited due to the melee damage being very low, and Bow damage mediocre.

However, in a 1v1 situation, the shield isnt very useful with 45+15 and mob, i can just barely handle a rr4-5 stealther if both ip and purge is up.

Shield should be strong enough in a 1v1 to compensate for the hunter pet and ranger dw. But its not which is fine, if the damage were higher.

I am not just asking the devs to improve scouts, it should be a general boost to archery returning them to si states in terms of Bow damage.

Meanwhile a debuff should also be added reducing archery damage for 1.4 sec after each shot.

The way it is right now archery classes are broken i doubt anyone can argue with that.

I am simply asking that it is looked at to a point where they can kill something.

On a whole other note the devs should also look at poisons and viper which is way overpowered.

Just earlier today i got a great example of variance damage, critshot of 424, normal shot 445.. It shouldnt act like that.

Scaling of archery damage should be changed, arrow type should impact more on the damage than it is today.

Scouts/rangers/hunters shouldnt be in a 8v8 meta, but is a solo class, and should be able to kill other than ppl below Lvl 50.

Wed 12 May 2021 5:18 PM by Siouxsie

Klasker wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 3:14 PM
Scouts/rangers/hunters shouldnt be in a 8v8 meta, but is a solo class, and should be able to kill other than ppl below Lvl 50.

I disagree. I've played my hunter in an 8 man and I have locked down sorcs and cabys and clerics with rapidfire.
It's HIGHLY effective and most groups aren't expecting it.

Wed 12 May 2021 5:48 PM by Kwall0311

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 5:18 PM
Klasker wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 3:14 PM
Scouts/rangers/hunters shouldnt be in a 8v8 meta, but is a solo class, and should be able to kill other than ppl below Lvl 50.

I disagree. I've played my hunter in an 8 man and I have locked down sorcs and cabys and clerics with rapidfire.
It's HIGHLY effective and most groups aren't expecting it.

Wed 12 May 2021 6:04 PM by daytonchambers

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 5:18 PM
Klasker wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 3:14 PM
Scouts/rangers/hunters shouldnt be in a 8v8 meta, but is a solo class, and should be able to kill other than ppl below Lvl 50.

I disagree. I've played my hunter in an 8 man and I have locked down sorcs and cabys and clerics with rapidfire.
It's HIGHLY effective and most groups aren't expecting it.

This, 100%

Targetting 2-3 suport/casters while rapidfiring against a group that is already CC immune can easily break a push.

Scout, who can play this interrupt role at a very long range while Guarding a healer at the same time and having access to one of the best peeling tools in the game with Stop should be one of the best support protection classes in the game.

Wed 12 May 2021 6:27 PM by Kwall0311

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:04 PM
Scout, who can play this interrupt role at a very long range while Guarding a healer at the same time and having access to one of the best peeling tools in the game with Stop should be one of the best support protection classes in the game.

Usuing 'Stop' in a gvg setting was a meme even before it was twice nerfed (endo usage increase/duration decrease) . No good groups would replace a proper peeler with any archer . You sounds like Cadebrennus, just stop.

I wont even comment on what any DQ/Dex debuff will do to your bow speed or even damage, susceptibility to CC , low HP etc.

Wed 12 May 2021 7:11 PM by daytonchambers

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:27 PM
daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:04 PM
Scout, who can play this interrupt role at a very long range while Guarding a healer at the same time and having access to one of the best peeling tools in the game with Stop should be one of the best support protection classes in the game.

Usuing 'Stop' in a gvg setting was a meme even before it was twice nerfed (endo usage increase/duration decrease) . No good groups would replace a proper peeler with any archer . You sounds like Cadebrennus, just stop.

I wont even comment on what any DQ/Dex debuff will do to your bow speed or even damage, susceptibility to CC , low HP etc.

If what you say is correct, then Stop was indeed used in a GvG setting due to how appealing it looks on paper. Or, more likely, it was laughed at by people like you and never actually tried. Plus that same scout has Slam, which last time I checked is pretty damn strong, and can spec a side snare if they want one. Hardly worthless as a SHTF peeler.

The DQ debuff vs an archer rapidfiring to rupt will reduce shot speed very little if the archer uses /switch to toggle a dps bow and an interrupt weapon. On rapidfire you can cap shot speed with a 5.0 bow, using a 4.0 when damage matters fuck-all if you aren't shooting to dps and you can practically cap shot speed with no buffs whatsoever.

Wed 12 May 2021 8:18 PM by paqdizzle

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 1:35 PM
Klasker wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 7:31 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:36 AM
how is shieldspec "low utility"?

Stop throwing in filler words that semm to sound well just for having the sound in argument. It just distracts from the valid points, and undermines overall credibility

Shield in it self brings very little to any fight as a scout, even with high MOB your melee damage is still so low it just doesn't matter, and the bow damage is so low that you will die in 99% of fights you engage if you don't have IP3 and purge up.

Compared to rangers, that do similar damage to scouts with bow, but have the twist of kicking ass with melee as well, scout just seems like the underdog.

I really think that scouts bow damage should be increased.
I disagree, shield brings ton of utility in almost every fight that is not a 1vs1
i never said that shieldspecc makes scouts on paar with rangers...

I said that the claim that scouts are low utility is bullshit.
Imo, they have the best utility of all realms archers.

Scouts are the only class on all 3 realms with great utility that can't be utilized... wtf are you going to do with a shield other than possibly block and arrow.. you gonna throw your shield to kill someone at range? or do you need to be within range to use said utility? lol c'maaaaan

Wed 12 May 2021 8:30 PM by paqdizzle

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 2:12 PM
paqdizzle wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 8:54 AM
stuff

When was the last time you actively played on this Server?

Sepplord and Astaa are right.
You're just making stuff up to justify your demand for more DPs...no, more precisely higher Bow Damage.
Higher and bigger than the others, that's what you want. This isn't to balance anything, it's straight up just a "gimme gimme gimme" demand.

Unclear why you try to do this in such a roundabout way, but i can tell you that you will get nowhere arguing like this.

We want what was originally ours to begin with.. do none of you remember that scouts were supposed to be the hardest hitting archer class by far? we have poop melee even if specced into it. Sure we have a shield, but we're not killing anyone with a shield while trying to block arrows, when we get 4 tapped from nukes lol or interrupt by DD procs on armor/shields. it's like you want scouts to only be able to die from every other class. I just saw like 2 days ago Lygma died from a rr1 NS. Neat.. #1 scout on the server too. I wonder if his shield gave him utility to use during that fight.

There is no arguing, it's a fact that scouts got the worst end of the poop stick in regards of archery, which was their ONLY means of dealing damage worth dealing.. SI and OG DAoC, scouts were never this weak. Like I said I would be 100% in favor of removing "Stop" and getting our OG damage back. even on phoenix beta they were beast archers. then archery was nerffed so that 50 archery wouldn't hit nearly has hard. 35 bow was all you should have gone at that time. Then they "Fixed" archery and made rangers more OP.. Then nerffed archery again because rangers were OP, making scouts bottom barrel archers.

we have shields.. that gives us utility. but tell me what good is that utility if it can't be utilized? Numb, they burn purge, wait 12 seconds, if you didn't die, Slam- then critshot BOOM.... 500 damage if you're lucky the damage variance lets you even see 500.. now standard shot, 250-300 but you hit a DD proc on someone's armor, now you gotta wait 5 seconds to shoot again... Who are you killing in 9 seconds doing barely half of someone's HP? Being a scout, you can die from auto swings by any medium tank, or tank.

Wed 12 May 2021 8:38 PM by paqdizzle

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 7:11 PM
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:27 PM
daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:04 PM
Scout, who can play this interrupt role at a very long range while Guarding a healer at the same time and having access to one of the best peeling tools in the game with Stop should be one of the best support protection classes in the game.

Usuing 'Stop' in a gvg setting was a meme even before it was twice nerfed (endo usage increase/duration decrease) . No good groups would replace a proper peeler with any archer . You sounds like Cadebrennus, just stop.

I wont even comment on what any DQ/Dex debuff will do to your bow speed or even damage, susceptibility to CC , low HP etc.

If what you say is correct, then Stop was indeed used in a GvG setting due to how appealing it looks on paper. Or, more likely, it was laughed at by people like you and never actually tried. Plus that same scout has Slam, which last time I checked is pretty damn strong, and can spec a side snare if they want one. Hardly worthless as a SHTF peeler.

The DQ debuff vs an archer rapidfiring to rupt will reduce shot speed very little if the archer uses /switch to toggle a dps bow and an interrupt weapon. On rapidfire you can cap shot speed with a 5.0 bow, using a 4.0 when damage matters fuck-all if you aren't shooting to dps and you can practically cap shot speed with no buffs whatsoever.

Nobody uses scouts in 8v8s though. and if they do, they get made fun of because there are better classes that can actually root for over a minute at range.. Rapid fire is in the same speed bracket as most nukers, except 1/3 of that damage nukers get. and scouts would need a different group synergy to even utilize DPS, like a Necro for armor debuff, in which case, you don't want a scout for the utility when they can die much quicker than any medium tank or tank/peelers. The meta doesn't allow scouts to be fully utilized in 8v8 and once it happens, they get interrupt by a DD proc from someone's armor and have to sit idle for 5 seconds before using the bow again.

What's better, having nukes hit you for 400+ damage at rapid fire speed? or scouts shooting a critshot at 5 seconds, to see roughly the same damage, maybe 100 more? depends on if that nuker got someone to debuff for them. Now they are hitting for 400-500+ at rapid fire speeds.

People are seriously wanting scouts to be weak on purpose. why?

Wed 12 May 2021 9:00 PM by Kwall0311

paqdizzle wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 8:30 PM
I just saw like 2 days ago Lygma died from a rr1 NS. Neat.. #1 scout on the server too. I wonder if his shield gave him utility to use during that fight.

The fight you are describing is pretty out of context as to what happened.

I think the utility of shield is right where it needs to be. The problem is the melee damage and even more, the styles. Raising the damage table, and make the 34 spec style liontooth a new anytimer, and an off block 'beartooth' to stack bleeds, would win the scout fights. I mean, look at a merc, hes at bleed cap in 2 swings.

Higher bow damage is not the answer to fixing scouts, and one archer shouldnt be that much stronger than the others regarding bow damage, on this server atleast. This isnt SI 15 years ago , and theres too many custom changes to justify how things used to be. They have already made custom changes to classes in attempt to balance, and i think its worth doing that for archers, its always a main topic here.

The bow damage nerf was somewhat necessary, things were absolutely out of hand, 550 standard , 1100 crits+. Although i would have rather seen it toned down less, and focused more on the assisting groups which caused this in the first place.

Also this wild damage variance should not apply to bow damage.

Wed 12 May 2021 9:36 PM by Klasker

Receive feedback on another thread from a dev..

"Archery damage will not see an increase. The status quo is for the most part where it should be. Even after the latest nerf, archer damage still has a small spec based custom damage multiplier when compared to before the buff"

Guess its just group up or reroll for scouts.

Wed 12 May 2021 9:43 PM by Kwall0311

Klasker wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 9:36 PM
Guess its just group up or reroll for scouts.

While i understand your frustration, you realize from a bow assist group standpoint, scout is not the best option. Rangers are still by far the better option for bow damage. A scout would have to spend 40 RA points to get the dex/qui to match a ranger that has spent none.

Wed 12 May 2021 9:52 PM by Klasker

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 9:43 PM
Klasker wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 9:36 PM
Guess its just group up or reroll for scouts.

While i understand your frustration, you realize from a bow assist group standpoint, scout is not the best option. Rangers are still by far the better option for bow damage. A scout would have to spend 30 RA points to get the dex/qui to match a ranger that has spent none.

I am full aware of that.

So the conclusion is after several player suggestions(good and bad). The devs decide to do nothing to make the class playable.

Its such a shame.

Wed 12 May 2021 10:30 PM by Babajaga

Scouts numbing to force a purge. (or any shield spec class yea?)
lol.

otherwise, there's the first block stun style which as the same cinematic of slam to sucess it. And since i play phoenix i just saw one scout using it.
just saying after 20years of daoc.

you can also use mangle to fake a numb, but that one maybe require too much IQ.

Wed 12 May 2021 10:48 PM by Babajaga

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 10:38 PM
Babajaga wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 10:30 PM
you can also use mangle to fake a numb, but that one maybe require too much IQ.

That doesnt seem very smart, considering mangle is an 8 second stun. Even if you were talking about the side positional 'disable' , that would still imo, be a terrible idea to 4 second stun to try and bait a purge. Id much rather use numb + ASR , which in my experience is pretty effective.

The hybrid aspect of scout is only effective at a certain RR. which start at 9RR one. and tbh, forget any matchup without ip4 against any smart player.. (in full melee situation)

As a lowbie, you just want to kite, like its how a scout was basically made for on SI.
It's all about visuals, any good player will not use purge on numb, all you want is to take distance, kite, snare, stop, hit and run. first aid, repeat. right ? the mangle situation is a good point for that, the opponent will just think about its a numb until he figures its a 8sec stun and will just purge and try to chase you but you reach enough distance to hit and run, snare again, stop if enough endo, waiting for stun immune, stun, bow, snare, hit and run, repeat. free kill.

Considering the most of your opponents as scout will be sins, 90% of sins runs with purge up. numb and asr will just makes your fight during longer, expecting a friendly fg add and kill the sin one, you literally have no chance on melee aspect against a good sin. kite is the way, hit and run is the way. anything else is pointless
a good scout, in fact, any good sniper maybe expect hunter coz its more a try hard due to lack of bait stun and free snare (chain one only) can kill a sin. just have to be smart and knowing well your matchup, your own class and when to use ur purge.

Wed 12 May 2021 10:52 PM by Kwall0311

Babajaga wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 10:48 PM
The hybrid aspect of scout is only effective at a certain RR. which start at 9RR one. and tbh, forget any matchup without ip4 against any smart player..

As a lowbie, you just want to kite, like its how a scout was basically made for on SI.
It's all about visuals, any good player will not use purge on numb, all you want is to take distance, kite, snare, stop, hit and run. first aid, repeat. right ?

I deleted what i said because i didnt want to get into that conversation, but ill agree with this.

However, You cant kite against garrote spam, cripple poison, double, triple dot + viper, bleeds, disease. And if you catch a dq/ws debuff , you wont do anything damage wise. Forget about trying to kite against a NS with 2 interrupts, or another bow class, or anyone with shield spec.

I like to think i have most aspects of the class down very well.

Ive beaten rank 12s, ive lost to rank 3s. RNG, who starts the fight first, and the environment/terrain play a big roll in the success or failure.

Wed 12 May 2021 11:09 PM by Babajaga

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 10:52 PM
However, You cant kite against garrote spam, cripple poison, double, triple dot + viper, bleeds. And if you catch a dq/ws debuff , you wont do anything damage wise.

I know, i'm not saying you can beat sin on every matchup, but you can kill them when wisely played, and i admit that's the hardest way, some waste purge on a stun, some for s/c+d/q debuff, for curing disease for extra double health pots/charge and others for snares that can change the whole matchup and flip on your favor

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 10:52 PM
Ive beaten rank 12s, ive lost to rank 3s. RNG, who starts the fight first, and the environment/terrain play a big roll in the success or failure.

Yea, i know that feel aswell as a melee ranger, can beat a 11rr without any ra from my side, and loose against a 4rr with purge and ip used. which is absurd, frustrating and sometimes it makes me want to delete and play animal crossing. But hey, phoenix rules! sometimes having skills means nothing.

Wed 12 May 2021 11:52 PM by Klasker

Babajaga wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 11:09 PM
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 10:52 PM
However, You cant kite against garrote spam, cripple poison, double, triple dot + viper, bleeds. And if you catch a dq/ws debuff , you wont do anything damage wise.

I know, i'm not saying you can beat sin on every matchup, but you can kill them when wisely played, and i admit that's the hardest way, some waste purge on a stun, some for s/c+d/q debuff, for curing disease for extra double health pots/charge and others for snares that can change the whole matchup and flip on your favor

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 10:52 PM
Ive beaten rank 12s, ive lost to rank 3s. RNG, who starts the fight first, and the environment/terrain play a big roll in the success or failure.

Yea, i know that feel aswell as a melee ranger, can beat a 11rr without any ra from my side, and loose against a 4rr with purge and ip used. which is absurd, frustrating and sometimes it makes me want to delete and play animal crossing. But hey, phoenix rules! sometimes having skills means nothing.

Its just really wierd just now i won over a rr7 champ with out Any major problems. And right after lost to a rr5 blademastee

Thu 13 May 2021 8:06 AM by paqdizzle

Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Apr 2021 5:09 PM
There is tons of problems atm that make scout the underdog by far :

First and the biggest problem of all : the variance damage... Rng is killing the class tbh. We are a kiting class, it takes already age to kill someone and this variance is a real nightmare most of the fight... It's not a problem when you play in group or in an assist train of scout (that litteraly doesn't exist on alb). So i'm still asking why gm did that change to us ?! I'm playing 50+20 bow and having a normal shot to a 5L nuker without relic for 64 damage+64 damage absorb (-50% cause of bt) is a real joke... So rng make me hit for 256 (3.1 sec for 64 damage !). Archer class are supposed to have some spike damage but then cause of that most of the time it doesn't. We just have to pray when you see someone inc to get lucky in your dice rolls ! Seriously, it's already hard enough to kill someone without getting add and still you need to have rng on your side. At least when variance wasn't there you knew from the begining if killing someone was possible. Now it's totaly random.

I understand that melee grp (GvG elitist) need spike damage, but remoove it from archery damage... It has never been a thing on DAOC ! It's like nukers, the more points you put in it, the less variance you get. And it should work like that too. It would be even more beneficial vs archer zerg since it will reduce the chance to get a oneshot on assist. And i really like the idea given on this topic about a buff that reduce all incoming arrows for 1.4sec for 75% after being hit by an arrow (not 1.5 or it will brake the cap point of rapidfire of 1.5). You can pretty much add anything for all archers class after that since it will kill the archers zerg.

Second : We lack melee but gm give us a great tool at 45 shield : a root/snare. I totaly agree 14 second was OP. 10 seems a bit low now. But i don't mind we can still kite most of the time. The real bitch is the endu cost. If you nerf the duration, at least change the endu cost... Seems totaly fair ?! Since we already got 15% miss on this skill + the avoidance of your target (block / parry / evade or even a bt), we have to cheese straf to hit with it. When i see some other class being totaly brainless in comparaison, reduce endu cost to 25% or even 20 doesn't seem like a game changer at all.

Thrid : Melee damage... Damage table totaly suck for scout, we can just check the 2,3 videos people have posted recently and it will show that without IP 4 / purge it's nearly impossible to kill anything at all. We litteraly have the worst damage from all the toons that have a melee line spec (same as warden and bard maybe but it's not their job). And still, people are playing it cause they love their toon. I won't mind trading my 50 bow to 35 if melee was worth anything. But unfortunately it doesn't.

Scout is not supposed to be played melee. But giving something to us in archery spec to make us a bit more viable in melee wouldn't be a bad idea... I will talk about that later.

Fourth : We lack selfbuff... Haters gonna say : YEAH but you don't have to spend points into Pathfinding or Beastcraft. Ofc we don't have to spend spec points into it, but how much realm points we need to spend to get what rangers have with selfbuff and imbah lurry racial stats ?! Just to compensate the d/q buff we need to spend at least 20 points ra points and we are not even close to what they have in dex and quick.... Doesn't seem legit at all to me when scout is like the worst archers from all. Just to get 1.5 rapid fire : 20 ra points waste ! Nice... 5 ra points to get that for rangers with the right distribution of starting points and the right race. Hunters doesn't need anything to get that with the 5.0 max bow (btw this should be changed too, allowing them to have at least a 5.2. But since they have way better melee damage and pet, 5.0 doesn't feel that bad ?). Let's be real here, scout only got his bow to make damage. Spending 20 points (quick 5 / moarchery 5) to get the same cap speed than others is what we can call a "FUCKING JOKE".

This exemple is for anyone playing scout with a 5.5 bow. So if you don't want to spend that much ra points to get cap, we can still play with a faster one. But then you nerf the maximum damage you can do... Another exemple of how broke we are atm vs others.

And i don't even talk about the self speed that allow hunt and ranger to run away... Yeah but you can root snare. Vs a sin you are dead even before you can land your root sometimes (when i mean dead, fight over cause you can't kite anymore or run away). But i will not beg for that !

Fifth : Overall realm utility... Keep fights, useless. Damage is so bad that it's not even worth hiting someone in a group. The only kill you can get is by targeting people who doesn't seem to be 50 yet. Seriously what's the point in that ? I'm not playing keeps fight cause of this, it's litteraly a waste of time and energy. If i want to kill some people that are not 50 i can go to a relic dock tbh (and most players don't xp in frontiers anymore). If you want to play keep fight as an archer : roll ranger since you get self buff and by that way better overall damage. You can just skip the melee line like power rangers do. We would need a cleric and a theur/wiz to get what they have in one spec line (except base dex). Most of the clerics community will never allow a scout to be in his grp... If by chance i'm pulling someone from Power rangers from that post : scout is the underdog 95% of the time... Try to play scout in a keep fight and land more than two arrows without mooving (vs mid and hib it's nearly impossible without getting stun and insta kill).

Scouts are underpop from a longtime now and don't have their place in keepfights...

GvG fight ? Not even close to get a grp. Except if you want to troll...

Small man stealth ? Seriously just go full shield + melee spec it would be ten times better than hiting with your bow... Your inf and mins with a guard will be way happier than having someone hiting for 250 / 500 on normal shot cause of this rng. And it's super easy to counter an archer.

Solo ? One fight every 15 minutes except if you are high rank and know your class perfectly. And even like that, rng will probably kill you.

Sixth : Small shield... I know dual get a 25% bonus hitrate vs shield user. So we are like the easiest kill a sin can have. Snare, disease dead. Or pray god to have IP4 / purge up everytime. And the sin community is growing bigger with age cause people are tired of the zerg fights or the elitist gvg... And still, there is nothing done for us. We don't even represent 1/7 of the stealth players on prime time (thanks minstrels and rangers for that). If you think that all archers are on the same pedestal, we are not ! Hunter got pet + two hand. Ranger got dual wield + great melee line spec + best self buffs. We got what ? Low 1H damage + small shield ?! Just to get 40% blockrate with 320 dex and 65 shield i need mastery of block 7 vs a dual wielder... And i will probably never win in melee with this anyway...

Give D/Q buff + Spec AF will not change much in melee but will allow scout to get a bit more punch and will maybe allow him to survive one more swing (or two) and maybe compensate a bit more in melee if people need more time to kill us (=more swing for us too). At the moment we have the best avoidance from the three archery class but we are the easiest one to kill during a stun since we have the worst AF. I don't count anymore how many times i was killed on a 7 sec stun from creeping death.

So now what do we need to do or say to get something from the gm community ? I understand that you probably don't care about the solo community. But scouts would be beneficial in keep fights if they were on the same level as rangers or hunters... Giving self D/Q + spec AF buff would allow to get more melee damage if thrust spec and less damage taken from melee damage. And if bow damage is way too much with that buff, you can just nerf us again... But since ranger damage seems legit to you, why not giving the same tool for scout ? Or put the self buffs in archery spec like live ?! You don't want to do anything for us in melee like it was ask numerous time already on forum and discord, but you can probably do something for archery then ? It will not change that much anyway our overall damage and we will still be under ranger cause we don't have the add damage buff...

I rest my case. Thanks and keep the great work you are doing for allowing us to play on Phoenix.

Watika.

My scout was a monster at 9l4 now, but I stopped after the nerfs. but I felt like we didn't need the stop ability if we had our bow damage back.
I have tried aug dex 9 but I only saw a 50 damage increase on a good day.
Currently I'm:
IP3
Purge3
First aid 2
Toughness 9 (helps a TON for kiting)
and just began to work on bow speed.

With this RA set-up I was able to live most encounters(unless the target had a shield or was Nightshade)
I know the devs know that scouts are broke by comparison, they don't want to fix them because the current meta groups wouldn't like it. They can't 8v1 if that target can almost kill their utility/nuker or at least make them burn some form of RA trying to survive. Let alone an 8man of archers all assisting. Which to me is fine, that's what the game was all about, you had to sacrifice CC, peels, heals, speed, just to have leet dps, when in reality, an 8 man of any realm's Pure DPS classes would do the same thing if they assisted on 1 target, problem with that, is Stealth being a huge advantage. Which it should... Hey maybe they'll buff scouts bow damage back but give them no stealth or maybe mini stealth lol which still isn't OG dark age, but still. I want to play my scout, and can't get into it anymore.

btw you didn't even mention how DD procs on armor or shields is a 5 second interrupt XD that's another way of combatting archery, not just scouts, but archery.
I want Scouts to be great at what they were supposed to be great at before I get back on my scout. For now I'm just parked at the beach PvE RoG farming. I don't even PvP with him anymore because it hurts my brain.

Thu 13 May 2021 8:21 AM by paqdizzle

Klasker wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 11:52 PM
Babajaga wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 11:09 PM
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 10:52 PM
However, You cant kite against garrote spam, cripple poison, double, triple dot + viper, bleeds. And if you catch a dq/ws debuff , you wont do anything damage wise.

I know, i'm not saying you can beat sin on every matchup, but you can kill them when wisely played, and i admit that's the hardest way, some waste purge on a stun, some for s/c+d/q debuff, for curing disease for extra double health pots/charge and others for snares that can change the whole matchup and flip on your favor

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 10:52 PM
Ive beaten rank 12s, ive lost to rank 3s. RNG, who starts the fight first, and the environment/terrain play a big roll in the success or failure.

Yea, i know that feel aswell as a melee ranger, can beat a 11rr without any ra from my side, and loose against a 4rr with purge and ip used. which is absurd, frustrating and sometimes it makes me want to delete and play animal crossing. But hey, phoenix rules! sometimes having skills means nothing.

Its just really wierd just now i won over a rr7 champ with out Any major problems. And right after lost to a rr5 blademastee

it's all good, Lygma(Server: #51 - Alb: #22 - Scout: #1) died to a rr1 just a couple days ago. Not sure who he went up against, but I heard it was a NS. I thought to myself, gotta be a champ, but I guess it was a NS. Could you imagine if that were reversed? and the highest RR NS died to a RR1 anything? lol it's okay cause though.. it's only scouts.. XD

Thu 13 May 2021 8:25 PM by Klasker

paqdizzle wrote: ↑
Thu 13 May 2021 8:21 AM
Klasker wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 11:52 PM
Babajaga wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 11:09 PM
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 10:52 PM
However, You cant kite against garrote spam, cripple poison, double, triple dot + viper, bleeds. And if you catch a dq/ws debuff , you wont do anything damage wise.

I know, i'm not saying you can beat sin on every matchup, but you can kill them when wisely played, and i admit that's the hardest way, some waste purge on a stun, some for s/c+d/q debuff, for curing disease for extra double health pots/charge and others for snares that can change the whole matchup and flip on your favor

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 10:52 PM
Ive beaten rank 12s, ive lost to rank 3s. RNG, who starts the fight first, and the environment/terrain play a big roll in the success or failure.

Yea, i know that feel aswell as a melee ranger, can beat a 11rr without any ra from my side, and loose against a 4rr with purge and ip used. which is absurd, frustrating and sometimes it makes me want to delete and play animal crossing. But hey, phoenix rules! sometimes having skills means nothing.

Its just really wierd just now i won over a rr7 champ with out Any major problems. And right after lost to a rr5 blademastee

it's all good, Lygma(Server: #51 - Alb: #22 - Scout: #1) died to a rr1 just a couple days ago. Not sure who he went up against, but I heard it was a NS. I thought to myself, gotta be a champ, but I guess it was a NS. Could you imagine if that were reversed? and the highest RR NS died to a RR1 anything? lol it's okay cause though.. it's only scouts.. XD

I got My buttocks kicked to the moon and back by a rr2 champ today as well rr6 scout.

I dont understand why it is so random

Thu 13 May 2021 9:23 PM by Astaa

Realm rank doesn't mean as much as some people think it does, post RR5 anyway.

Fri 14 May 2021 3:31 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 13 May 2021 9:23 PM
Realm rank doesn't mean as much as some people think it does, post RR5 anyway.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Fri 14 May 2021 10:19 AM by paqdizzle

Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 13 May 2021 9:23 PM
Realm rank doesn't mean as much as some people think it does, post RR5 anyway.

I didn't start really noticing scout's potential until I was high enough for Toughness9 IP2-3, First aid2 and Purge2-3. Then the nerf to archery happened.
So around 8l3+ is when it felt like scouts were capable of being Great. Once you got toughness9 you really saw a difference on how well you could kite. That with IP2 and purge 2 at the very least. But after the archery nerf on top of physical damage variance, it's a gamble to be half-decent vs a specific class only. Or just have the advantages of LoS and range. then it's still a gamble on half-decent damage. so basically, RR matters 100% of the time. specially after rr5 cause that's when you get to explore RA utility and new tactics. It's just harder to tell now because it's a gamble.

Oh and I'm 69 archery. RR matter

Fri 14 May 2021 11:11 AM by Tommylad

These people that suddenly get a very bad case of verbal diarrhea when discussing archers....you know "nerf this, add that, do this, do that, reduce, increase, buff, debuff, blah blah blah........." ...you all forget that from the start, this server has been anti-archer. Groups of archers? OMG stop that. Volley? Well we will damn well stop that also. A lone sniper able to kill? LOLOLOL.....you are kidding, we will never allow that. So there you go, that's the reason so many archers from Live chose to play Infis etc when they came here. Phoenix might just as well get rid of the archer class once and for all, because you don't even have to read between the lines to see how much they really dislike the archer class. But of course it is THEIR server so they can do what like , and they do.

Fri 14 May 2021 12:04 PM by Astaa

paqdizzle wrote: ↑
Fri 14 May 2021 10:19 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 13 May 2021 9:23 PM
Realm rank doesn't mean as much as some people think it does, post RR5 anyway.

I didn't start really noticing scout's potential until I was high enough for Toughness9 IP2-3, First aid2 and Purge2-3. Then the nerf to archery happened.
So around 8l3+ is when it felt like scouts were capable of being Great. Once you got toughness9 you really saw a difference on how well you could kite. That with IP2 and purge 2 at the very least. But after the archery nerf on top of physical damage variance, it's a gamble to be half-decent vs a specific class only. Or just have the advantages of LoS and range. then it's still a gamble on half-decent damage. so basically, RR matters 100% of the time. specially after rr5 cause that's when you get to explore RA utility and new tactics. It's just harder to tell now because it's a gamble.

Oh and I'm 69 archery. RR matter

I chew through RR10+ all the time on my RR6 hero, all classes...except casters. Heroes aren't exactly OP btw...

Fri 28 May 2021 8:35 PM by Siouxsie

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:27 PM
daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 6:04 PM
Scout, who can play this interrupt role at a very long range while Guarding a healer at the same time and having access to one of the best peeling tools in the game with Stop should be one of the best support protection classes in the game.

Usuing 'Stop' in a gvg setting was a meme even before it was twice nerfed (endo usage increase/duration decrease) . No good groups would replace a proper peeler with any archer . You sounds like Cadebrennus, just stop.

I wont even comment on what any DQ/Dex debuff will do to your bow speed or even damage, susceptibility to CC , low HP etc.

LOL You really don't know your own class, do you, Lygma?

Fri 28 May 2021 8:37 PM by Kwall0311

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 8:35 PM
LOL You really don't know your own class, do you, Lygma?

I know what your suggesting, as well as the other guy, would never work in a competitive group.

Fri 28 May 2021 8:45 PM by Siouxsie

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 8:37 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 8:35 PM
LOL You really don't know your own class, do you, Lygma?

I know what your suggesting, as well as the other guy, would never work in a competitive group.

I ran with a 6 man.. and we came across alb groups where I was able to lock down the sorc, caby and cleric just by rapidfiring at them.
They were not expecting it at all.. and the rest of the group was able to bowl them over.
You have to look at unconventional ways of doing things.. it upsets the 'meta' but who cares! That's why when you posted that stupid reaction gif,
I knew you really didn't know the potential of the archer class.

Yes, the damage sucks now for bow. I've tested 50 bow, 50 beastcraft.. with 375 dex on a kobold hunter and the bow damage SUCKS. Hitting a reaver/minstrel with thrust arrows for 355.. complete joke.

Fri 28 May 2021 8:49 PM by Kwall0311

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 8:45 PM
Hitting a reaver/minstrel with thrust arrows for 355.. complete joke.

Sounds like you arent counting an ablative abs.

Sat 29 May 2021 11:04 AM by Noashakra

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 8:45 PM
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 8:37 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 8:35 PM
LOL You really don't know your own class, do you, Lygma?

I know what your suggesting, as well as the other guy, would never work in a competitive group.

I ran with a 6 man.. and we came across alb groups where I was able to lock down the sorc, caby and cleric just by rapidfiring at them.
They were not expecting it at all.. and the rest of the group was able to bowl them over.
You have to look at unconventional ways of doing things.. it upsets the 'meta' but who cares! That's why when you posted that stupid reaction gif,
I knew you really didn't know the potential of the archer class.

Yes, the damage sucks now for bow. I've tested 50 bow, 50 beastcraft.. with 375 dex on a kobold hunter and the bow damage SUCKS. Hitting a reaver/minstrel with thrust arrows for 355.. complete joke.

You playing vs bad players isn't a proof of anything.
Who in the right mind would take a hunter over a RM that brings a lot more (snare dd, BT, root, etc) and can rupt at 2300 range faster than you and with a nearsight.
let's not forget they can take the upper hand with a quick cast when the hunter can't.

Mon 31 May 2021 9:12 PM by Centenario

Archers in DAoC were supposed to be fast and communicate;
Maybe add a scouting line, which includes:
- bear trap = ST style stun single target, ground set ability, not useable in combat, 5sec casting time.
- hawk eye = ground set ability aoe, give stealth vision on a 750circle for 10 second 10min timer.
- missive = DD body 2000 range
- pouch herbs = insta cure 5min cd (NS/dot/disease)
- campacorentin scout = Casted 10sec independent +1 melee damage table
- Cornwall scout = casted 10sec independent +1 ranged damage table

So no buff but something special like the 2 other archers.

Tue 1 Jun 2021 3:10 PM by Komaf

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 29 May 2021 11:04 AM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 8:45 PM
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 8:37 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Fri 28 May 2021 8:35 PM
LOL You really don't know your own class, do you, Lygma?

I know what your suggesting, as well as the other guy, would never work in a competitive group.

I ran with a 6 man.. and we came across alb groups where I was able to lock down the sorc, caby and cleric just by rapidfiring at them.
They were not expecting it at all.. and the rest of the group was able to bowl them over.
You have to look at unconventional ways of doing things.. it upsets the 'meta' but who cares! That's why when you posted that stupid reaction gif,
I knew you really didn't know the potential of the archer class.

Yes, the damage sucks now for bow. I've tested 50 bow, 50 beastcraft.. with 375 dex on a kobold hunter and the bow damage SUCKS. Hitting a reaver/minstrel with thrust arrows for 355.. complete joke.

You playing vs bad players isn't a proof of anything.
Who in the right mind would take a hunter over a RM that brings a lot more (snare dd, BT, root, etc) and can rupt at 2300 range faster than you and with a nearsight.
let's not forget they can take the upper hand with a quick cast when the hunter can't.

This is such an apples vs oranges argument.

Stealth + Ignore Pain can make an archer a pretty deadly foe for a soft target (vs casters)..something no caster has. Though, quickcast nearsite on an archer is devastating if they don't have purge up...but then again, most archers get into firing range and most likely have purge.

---> Because DAoC awards meta groups with an easier learning curve does not mean that a 'smarter' group cannot break the mold and do something unexpected.

I can only imagine the call to nerf archers that would happen if BG groups started to consider the value of a 'wall team' whose sole purpose it is to ruin enemy catapults and wall climbers...to in effect assist and keep everyone more than 1875 - 2000 units away from a keep.

One 40 rejuv/mend/regrowth to heal hits/nearsite. One wall group out of an entire BG per keep defense could make it so the enemy would have to by far outnumber your defense (traditionally, in the middle ages of siege warfare, it was not uncommon for archers to defend a keep, and force the attacker to have to increase their size by 3x or more the defending side).

Imagine if Srly, Pilz in his many forms, Barachan, etc., began each BG with "we have room for one more in the wall defense group...c'mon scouts, let's go go go..." That would be cool. Taking full advantage of a class's ability, instead of sitting here on these forums consistently comparing an M1 Abrams tank to a piece of artillery or an RPG wielding marine vs a sniper acting as overwatch.

I've seen/felt first hand what 2 rangers and 1 warden can do for a keep defense...imagine 5 rangers/scouts/hunters 1 nearsite cure/healer. Yeah.

DAoC's pvp appeal has always been it's back and forth chess-match between realm BG/groups. Sadly, many of us do not try to utilize ALL the pieces, in favor of a select few.

My 2 cents.

Tue 1 Jun 2021 6:40 PM by Centenario

Problem is some people can't stand to play BG. (most stealthers)
They want 8v8 or 1v1, and not add, cause its corrupting your herald stats.
The Phoenix team also is balancing on 8v8 (and maybe a little 1v1).
Try to fight 1v1 scout against many other classes. If you dont use 15mins cooldowns (purge/IP) you are 90% of the time losing.
With your cd up, you'd have to play well and be against a casual mindset enemy to win.

Wed 2 Jun 2021 6:39 AM by inoeth

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 6:40 PM
Problem is some people can't stand to play BG. (most stealthers)
They want 8v8 or 1v1, and not add, cause its corrupting your herald stats.
The Phoenix team also is balancing on 8v8 (and maybe a little 1v1).
Try to fight 1v1 scout against many other classes. If you dont use 15mins cooldowns (purge/IP) you are 90% of the time losing.
With your cd up, you'd have to play well and be against a casual mindset enemy to win.

herald stats lul....

can you imagine how much fun it is to get constantly added? never doing your own rp, just gain rp by task ticks?
just yesterday i was playing my rr2 infi and got added 10/10 times i had a 1v1 ... all other fights already started as 1vsX ... hell i even got chased down by a 16 slot
yeah i just care about my heral stats.... dude really?

Thu 3 Jun 2021 1:19 AM by boridi

Komaf wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 3:10 PM
Imagine if Srly, Pilz in his many forms, Barachan, etc., began each BG with "we have room for one more in the wall defense group...c'mon scouts, let's go go go..." That would be cool. Taking full advantage of a class's ability, instead of sitting here on these forums consistently comparing an M1 Abrams tank to a piece of artillery or an RPG wielding marine vs a sniper acting as overwatch.

Srly running BGs now?

Thu 3 Jun 2021 12:08 PM by Noashakra

Komaf wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Jun 2021 3:10 PM
Stealth + Ignore Pain can make an archer a pretty deadly foe for a soft target (vs casters)..something no caster has. Though, quickcast nearsite on an archer is devastating if they don't have purge up...but then again, most archers get into firing range and most likely have purge.

Just going to stop there.
stealth in group fight is useless, why do you bring it up ?
You want to cut your speed to stealth instead of keeping speed 6 to position yourself?
We speak about group vs group man, not 1vs1...

Then you compare BG groups to 8vs8 groups, it makes no sense. You can make groups of 1 cleric 1 friar and 6 ministrels. Lot's of rupt, assist idd !
If you want to ram with an 8man, there are 0 reasons to have an archer in your group, ebcause it brings nothing, either in 8vs8 ort 8vsX

Archers bring no DPS, less rupt potential, and no utility compared to a mage. But ok it has IP, it will help him a lot.