No swapping in weapons from your inventoy in a fight and poisons become instant-spells with a shared cooldown-timer

Started 30 Apr 2021
by thalamar
in Suggestions
Probably hitting a nerve here for every assasin in the game, but hear me out, before you offer me wine to the cheese - or cheese to the wine..

So how about to not be able to switch weapons out of your inventory into your active slots if you are engaged in combat. (you still can swap bewteen 1-hand/2-hand/Range of course)

It seems a bit silly to me, that it is considered advanced gameplay to have dozens of weapons in your invetory to apply every kind of poison in a fight and to swap then through.

If you would have to consider, which poison you take into the fight, I would say this is even a higher level of skill and will reflect more finesse of all the sneaky people.

But since this would just be a nerf for a cool class, I want to offer a second idea along with it, and yes, this is proably even to complicated to implement or to change game-system-wise, but let's see:

instead of coating weapons with posions, the poison line receives poison-skills instead. So at lvl 1, you get a spell aequivalent to the lvl 1 poison-effect. It is an instant spell and all posion-spells share a global 5 second cooldown. So regardless of the weapon you are using, you can "cast" a poison-instant every 5 seconds. So over the duration of the battle you can still apply all the things you want/need and don't have to litter your inventory with weapons and poison-flasks.

- poisons are instantly cast.
- An activated poison will apply with the next successful hit (melee or ranged).
- after casting a poison, this type of poison has a 20 seconds cooldown.
- you have a global cooldown of 5 seconds for every poison after casting a poison spell.
- the applied poison will last until triggered - so you can still pre-buff yourself with your prefered poisons.

I can imagine to limit the maximum poison-spells active on one target at the same time are depending on your hardpoints into the poison tree.
Hardpoints in Poison // Number of active Poisons
1 // 1
10 // 2
20 // 3
30 // 4
40 // 5
50 // 6

If you apply more poisons to the target than you limit allows, the oldest poison fades.
With this, you can still have the debuffs on the target, you really need to have to, but you are also flexible to change them if needed. This would also add some tactics to the system.

I think this system would give enough control over effects, but also give some restrictions, plus it would get rid of weapon-swapping-hell as well.
Fri 30 Apr 2021 11:13 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Everyone with a shield is just relegated to using it or their two-handed spec line, never both?
Fri 30 Apr 2021 11:25 PM by skipari
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Apr 2021 11:13 PM
Everyone with a shield is just relegated to using it or their two-handed spec line, never both?

thalamar wrote: So how about to not be able to switch weapons out of your inventory into your active slots if you are engaged in combat. (you still can swap bewteen 1-hand/2-hand/Range of course)
Fri 30 Apr 2021 11:37 PM by thalamar
I edited my post slightly to point out, that this would not affect your currently equipped weapon setup - so you can still swap between 1hand and shield to 2-hand or ranged.

It is meant that you cannot change your currently equipped weapons with one from your inventory while in a fight.
Fri 30 Apr 2021 11:40 PM by easytoremember
if nothing else I like the idea of hard spec envenom having perks up to 50
Fri 30 Apr 2021 11:41 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Okay, and Mercenaries and Blademasters now have a shield spec for what reason?
Fri 30 Apr 2021 11:45 PM by Kurbsen
thalamar wrote: So how about to not be able to switch weapons out of your inventory into your active slots if you are engaged in combat. (you still can swap bewteen 1-hand/2-hand/Range of course)



so then if you're lw spec you cant swap between crush/slash and spear for backsnare(if hero) during a fight? as well as different proc types on weapons?.. yea no thanks
Fri 30 Apr 2021 11:55 PM by thalamar
I see the problems now with that. Thanks for the input.

I guess it would have to be possible to equip shields to 2-hand-slot for bms/mercs to swap to them with this system.

And to not be able to change the dmg-type and weapon for procs infight is also a thing I haven't considered - with all of this in mind, this for sure would have a too great impact on tactics and setup to change it like that, for sure.

on the other hand, you could argue, that combat means commitment and you don't have the time in there to search your inventory for a weapon and swap it out while someone tries to kill you - at least with a more realistic approach of thinking. I know, I know, it is a game..

so let's speak about the poisons then..
Sat 1 May 2021 1:45 AM by gotwqqd
I’m all for this in a manner
Though I’d opt for a cooldown of switching BACK to weapon line type.
And only allow poisons to be applied to equipped weapons
Sat 1 May 2021 7:17 AM by Astaa
I can use up to 5-6 different LW weapons on my hero in 1v1 fight (trimmed down to 4 atm)

The simple thing would be to stop AHK use.
Sat 1 May 2021 12:26 PM by gruenesschaf
Personal opinion:
Preventing weapon swap entirely is not the way to go, however, there should be some cost to it. Such a change would however not represent an intended balance change but a fix to a flawed game mechanic with balance implications that may or may not have to be addressed.

The simplest and to me most sane way would be to add the base weapon delay of the new weapon to your current swing timer (or starting it) on weapon swap. This would make applying multiple poisons a tradeoff and not a clearly superior thing and it would remove the currently perfectly valid 2h + shield swap abuse: hit them with your 2h, swap to shield while in swing delay to take advantage of your shield spec without any downside, swap to 2h again once out of swing delay and repeat, effectively making you wield 2h + shield.

A different poison mechanic, namely like live does it these days, would be nice and also horrible, it would be nice for assassin players as it is primarily a qol but it would also be horrible as it dramatically lowers the barrier of entry making assassins even more prevalent. At the same time giving out these skills at specific evenom specs while ignoring + from items or rr, as it would be actual skills granted at different spec levels, would have huge spec implications and remove a major benefit assassins gain from higher rr.
Sat 1 May 2021 1:38 PM by Saroi
In my opinion the biggest problem is with /switch macro and AHK and not the swap itself.

Sins: You used to have to drag your weapons manually. This meant to have inventory open and you had to pay more attention. It is also very hard or near impossible to switch Main + Offhand before your next attack round is ready. And in some cases you either fucked up and got the wrong weapon or you hit the wrong style.

Now everyone has switch macro to get instant 2 new weapons. Here and there you also have Sins tying it with AHK together for styles. So 2 new weapons + 5-6 style queue up (Evade combo and Achiles/Garotte as anytimer). Basically like bots.

Merc/BM: Almost the same between offhand and shield. Easy switch with macro and in some cases also AHK to switch to offhand and queueing up your styles:

2h/Shield: I personally think in general this is fine since this is a tank thing and in some other games you have it too. But here is also were AHK helps a lot when going 2h to automatically queue up styles.

Without all that, the manually switching would be a lot harder, making you either screw up the swap, screw up your styles or have you lose a few seconds. It is probably too late remove AHK or it will not be intended. But atleast the /switch command should be removed.
Sat 1 May 2021 2:06 PM by gruenesschaf
Removing ahk or switch would just make it more awkward to use. The mechanic existing at all is the design flaw / issue.

Even without macroing it was used and would be used, it would just be like the minstrel before the charm change: utterly stupid to play because you're not really playing the character but fighting the archaic daoc interface. The required user input should never ever have any weight on balance considerations, ideally the only thing that should matter are the possible actions to take and then on the player end the decision which action to take and when to take it, but not doing any weird contortions or incantations to actually do them, like in combat inventory management. In a VR game you obviously could argue in favor of actual gestures as input but this is a tab target mmo.

If it's intended to poison swap a bazillion times in a fight it should be easy to do and just an expected mechanic, if it's not intended it should not be possible in the first place.
Sat 1 May 2021 3:11 PM by soremir
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 12:26 PM
The simplest and to me most sane way would be to add the base weapon delay of the new weapon to your current swing timer (or starting it) on weapon swap. This would make applying multiple poisons a tradeoff and not a clearly superior thing and it would remove the currently perfectly valid 2h + shield swap abuse: hit them with your 2h, swap to shield while in swing delay to take advantage of your shield spec without any downside, swap to 2h again once out of swing delay and repeat, effectively making you wield 2h + shield.

Sounds great! Let's do it!
Sat 1 May 2021 3:15 PM by Tamy
In my opinion the flaw/issue is the combination of the allowance of AHK combined with your introduced /switch macro like Saroi said (which was never part of the official game). The normal 1h/2h switch was part of the game since Beta so I wouldn't consider it a flaw/issue but more like working as intended.

Don't get me wrong...I also profited from the /switch macro on many classes but in combination with AHK usage it really drops the needed skill to play certain classes (such as assassins or shield classes). I partially agree that the focus regarding player skill should lie in enemy knowledge, knowledge of your own class and making the right strategic decisions at the right time but some more effort to play a certain class (like an assassin) at the absolut maximum should still be possible.

I understand though that certain classes would get out of control due to massive button pressing if you would forbid AHK usage (such as skalds or paladins) or just be less effective. So in this case there should be some other solution for them.

Offtopic: Regarding enemy knowledge I don't know if this "Scout Addon" (which checks the Phoenix Herald for class, RR etc.) is still in use by a part of the playerbase and if it's allowed or not. I think Uthred said ones that it is forbidden but I'm not 100% sure about it. In my eyes such tools should be bannable since it is doing the contrary to what you say DAoC skill should be about.
Sat 1 May 2021 3:43 PM by gruenesschaf
Tamy wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 3:15 PM
some more effort to play a certain class (like an assassin) at the absolut maximum should still be possible.

That's why strafing to get positionals is still a thing here and has not been removed. In tab target mmos the strategical / tactical elements (cooldown management, positioning, target choice etc.) are what matter and aside from that individual, actual "gameplay skill" should start and end with movement, not who can pull up the most ingame windows and click things the fastest.

I still entirely reject the idea of clunky and weird user input being something that should be in any way expected or even rewarded, that is the sole reason why switch exists. Switch existing and not having any downside to weapon swapping is precisely because we accepted these ancient game mechanics as part of the game and hence made them more accessible. Same for the absolutely braindead idea of instant chant swapping on pala and skald, absolutely braindead and only tolerable with macros.

Ideally, there would be game design elements in place that prevent macros from being effective, modern games usually achieve this by reactive elements but daoc is certainly not a modern game.
Sat 1 May 2021 4:28 PM by Magesty
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 12:26 PM
A different poison mechanic, namely like live does it these days, would be nice and also horrible, it would be nice for assassin players as it is primarily a qol but it would also be horrible as it dramatically lowers the barrier of entry making assassins even more prevalent. At the same time giving out these skills at specific evenom specs while ignoring + from items or rr, as it would be actual skills granted at different spec levels, would have huge spec implications and remove a major benefit assassins gain from higher rr.

Agree 100% with your points in this thread, but I seriously doubt making QoL changes could do much to further saturate the assassin population in a meaningful way. On any given play session 75-100% of my 1v1s as a visible are assassins. If QoL changes means that some amount of those are lower quality players enticed by ease of access changes I think that is a good thing on the whole, and they will inevitably go back to coast guarding, zerging, or 8v8ing when they realize they can't hack it 1v1 against the hordes of RR10+ sneaks.

The prevalence of assassins on Phoenix is purely due to stealth and their power level. If they weren't as over-tuned, more people would be taking the trade off of stealth for 1v1 combat prowess, and we'd see solo class populations fall more in line with what it was on live classic servers.
Sat 1 May 2021 5:29 PM by easytoremember
Juggling weapons around while you're in combat is the only scenario where fumble has ever made sense to me.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 12:26 PM
giving out these skills at specific evenom specs while ignoring + from items or rr, as it would be actual skills granted at different spec levels, would have huge spec implications and remove a major benefit assassins gain from higher rr.
I was thinking of it in the manner of stealth vs spec stealth- safe fall and friends. A means of avoiding "forcing" the player to not choose to free up points from stealth as his RR permits is by having the range associated with the most common RR skill bonuses void of hard spec perks.

As an example the initial spec is usually 37+11
At 4L 36+14
6L 34+16
11L 29+21

If good abilities were placed at 25 34 40, it would seem mandatory for 34 to be minimum spec- thus RR7 and beyond cannot choose to free up points without gimping themselves hard. On the other hand, even having them placed outside of that range (ie 28 to 38) it would be necessary for upper bound to be marginal gain lest the minimum spec shoot up instead of down
Sun 2 May 2021 11:10 AM by DJ2000
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 3:43 PM
That's why strafing to get positionals is still a thing here and has not been removed. In tab target mmos the strategical / tactical elements (cooldown management, positioning, target choice etc.) are what matter and aside from that individual, actual "gameplay skill" should start and end with movement, not who can pull up the most ingame windows and click things the fastest.
I still entirely reject the idea of clunky and weird user input being something that should be in any way expected or even rewarded, that is the sole reason why switch exists.
Unclear if i want to fully agree on that, but it doesn't matter anyway.
To me, Phoenix shall be a place where everything about DaoC that was annoying, bad, clunky or unfun, by design/implementation/etc., is trimmed out to make the good parts of it shine even more.
The problem with this lies where to draw a line in certain aspects. No matter what you do, or try to be as neutral and objective as possible, you cannot please everyone. Ever.
Accepting that may lessen the grief to some decisions been made, but doesn't make it a better experience for people that simply fundamentally disagree with certain viewpoints and aspects in the current Game.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 3:43 PM
Switch existing and not having any downside to weapon swapping is precisely because we accepted these ancient game mechanics as part of the game and hence made them more accessible. Same for the absolutely braindead idea of instant chant swapping on pala and skald, absolutely braindead and only tolerable with macros.
For the Love of god, then why are they still a thing? Why do they even exist as they are now?
Why not simply combine these "absolutely braindead" chants into one?
Why not implement a macro similar to /switch? Call it /chant, where you can load your chants into, which you then activate by pressing the macro once.
Why this roundabout way of doing things with the pretense of upholding "skill", "zeitgeist" or "accessibility"?
Sun 2 May 2021 2:48 PM by Adwaenyth
Magesty wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 4:28 PM
On any given play session 75-100% of my 1v1s as a visible are assassins.

Consider the survival rate against small / 8 / zerg as a solo. That and the archers being much harder to play effectively against assassins obviously gives assassins a very high survivability rate compared to all other classes when solo. It's not that assassins have such a high survivability because the switch mechanic is easy but because they are the least likely to just get killed by every passerby there is.
Sun 2 May 2021 7:26 PM by EuinaR
I have no problem whit swapping, if /switch or backpack drag doesnt matter. But the ahk is just stupid.. just because its so stupid i dont juse it.. im probably stupid not to juse it..
sorry of topic..
Sun 2 May 2021 7:50 PM by Magesty
Adwaenyth wrote: ↑
Sun 2 May 2021 2:48 PM
Consider the survival rate against small / 8 / zerg as a solo. That and the archers being much harder to play effectively against assassins obviously gives assassins a very high survivability rate compared to all other classes when solo. It's not that assassins have such a high survivability because the switch mechanic is easy but because they are the least likely to just get killed by every passerby there is.

Yes. The problem is that, for a number of reasons, they don't actually trade off a meaningful amount of combat ability for stealth on this server. On the top end of players this is obviously unrelated to /switch, but there is a large swathe of the current assassin population that would struggle without the commands and certainly perform much better than they otherwise would with it in place.
Sun 2 May 2021 9:30 PM by ExcretusMaximus
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sun 2 May 2021 11:10 AM
For the Love of god, then why are they still a thing? Why do they even exist as they are now?
Why not simply combine these "absolutely braindead" chants into one?
Why not implement a macro similar to /switch? Call it /chant, where you can load your chants into, which you then activate by pressing the macro once.

While I can see the macro being added being a viable solution to remove the need for AHK, they can't really add them all into one spell for the simple reason that there is a world of difference between having all your effects up for 62.5% of the time vs 100% of the time (recast delay vs duration); the classes would need to be rebalanced from the ground up if we gave them 100% uptime on their chants (that, or the chants themselves would have to be reduced numerically to the point of uselessness).
Mon 3 May 2021 5:01 AM by Adwaenyth
Magesty wrote: ↑
Sun 2 May 2021 7:50 PM
Yes. The problem is that, for a number of reasons, they don't actually trade off a meaningful amount of combat ability for stealth on this server. On the top end of players this is obviously unrelated to /switch, but there is a large swathe of the current assassin population that would struggle without the commands and certainly perform much better than they otherwise would with it in place.

Well class balance being what it is, most difficulties I've got against offtanks (zerker, merc) and fulltanks (arms, warri) just like I had on pre-ToA Live-Servers.

The biggest problem that solo players have outside stealthers and speedsters is that there are just a tiny few hotspots that are viable for them most of the time. Areas that are more frequented by players are likely to also have small / 8man groups run around in hope of finding easy pickings. Beno area in particular has the problem that almost every alb and his mother will come running if you engage in a 1v1 fight, thus this is also a problematic location, but Bled and DC aren't that much better.

With a lot of players in the rp/h being most important mindset, I get it why non-stealth/speed soloers aren't very happy that enemies they will most likely encounter are always the same classes. However that is less of a class balance / QOL issue.

I'm however not really sure if there is a way to fix that issue. Unless you want to make massive class changes to all assassins that would require extensive rebalancing, the only thing you can do is give people incentives to go elsewhere. The problem is, what incentives that will not be vulnerable to being exploited as rp farming methods on the one hand but enough so that there is a healthy community of soloers wanting to go after them without making it a /bow duelling arena.
Mon 3 May 2021 7:19 AM by Noashakra
Magesty wrote: ↑
Sun 2 May 2021 7:50 PM
Adwaenyth wrote: ↑
Sun 2 May 2021 2:48 PM
Consider the survival rate against small / 8 / zerg as a solo. That and the archers being much harder to play effectively against assassins obviously gives assassins a very high survivability rate compared to all other classes when solo. It's not that assassins have such a high survivability because the switch mechanic is easy but because they are the least likely to just get killed by every passerby there is.

Yes. The problem is that, for a number of reasons, they don't actually trade off a meaningful amount of combat ability for stealth on this server. On the top end of players this is obviously unrelated to /switch, but there is a large swathe of the current assassin population that would struggle without the commands and certainly perform much better than they otherwise would with it in place.

People act like if assassins were weak on normal servers. They were shredding everything because of the dot could be reapplied with each swing, and people just had to chain garrot to win. They are definitly not overtuned compared to live here.

The community is so bad on this server, they make most visible stop.
People /rofl and /rude visible soloer for no reasons after zerging them. If you want to kill the solo game completly, nerf the assassins, and you will have nothing left.

I don't play solo anymore, it was too stressful for me the past times I played. You chain rel vs 3+ all the time, 0 fun.
Mon 3 May 2021 7:51 AM by Irkeno
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Mon 3 May 2021 7:19 AM
The community is so bad on this server, they make most visible stop.
People /rofl and /rude visible soloer for no reasons after zerging them. If you want to kill the solo game completly, nerf the assassins, and you will have nothing left.

This.

Honestly if you look at the results of assassins in the 1v1 arena its fairly obvious they arent overtuned because of the presence of /switch.

Give a competent soloer the ability to play a visi class solo and theyll do well, if not better than on their sins. A few have made a bit of a move and done so but the server attitude is so toxic to visi solos or solos in general that this is what u get.

On top of every roaming group steamrolling visi solos you got 5man hunter grps camping bled 12hrs a day, you got 8mans of rangers and ns’s camping dc waiting til their timers are up to vanish at first sign of trouble, you got the minstrel brigade at beno...

None of whom fight each other, they just go and look to farm solos/smaller numbers than them and rarely, if ever have to go and fight each other, because they just wait to prey on the people who would rather go out/adventure/play the game.
Mon 3 May 2021 8:20 AM by DJ2000
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 2 May 2021 9:30 PM
While I can see the macro being added being a viable solution to remove the need for AHK, they can't really add them all into one spell for the simple reason that there is a world of difference between having all your effects up for 62.5% of the time vs 100% of the time (recast delay vs duration); the classes would need to be rebalanced from the ground up if we gave them 100% uptime on their chants (that, or the chants themselves would have to be reduced numerically to the point of uselessness).
I know that. Trust me, there are 1000 ways on how to deal with any of this.

My complaint wasn't even about these "braindead" chants in itself.

It was about gruenes double standards. (him as a person, not as a gm)

On one side the /switch macro was implemented, because he "reject(s) the idea of clunky and weird user input being something that should be in any way expected or even rewarded". The manual weapon swap, that is.
Because, "without macroing it was used and would be used" anyway, so at least make it simple to use then.
Then, going on about how "not doing any weird contortions or incantations to actually do them" as to why this is a change for the better. Presenting the Minstrel, of all things, as an example as it was "utterly stupid to play because you're not really playing the character but fighting the archaic daoc interface".
On the other side, he complains about the "absolutely braindead idea of instant chant swapping on pala and skald" and basically promotes the use of AHK/macros to deal with that? Looks like "not doing any weird contortions or incantations to actually do them" doesn't seem to happen here; or the fact that "without macroing it was used and would be used" anyway is not a factor this time...

THEN, and i like this one even more, he is displeased by "the currently perfectly valid 2h + shield swap abuse", and i guess the DW+shield one as well....but I'm only guessing.
But is trying to sell the fact, that the "strafing to get positionals off" as a form of "(movement) skill" to be achieved by the players.
And to remind you: An abuse of the Game mechanics where you can hit an opponnent in an angle to not only get a positional style, but also to circumvent any of the enemy defenses, as you are hitting them outside their defense block/parry/evade angles (light tanks have a 360-evade).
And to top it all off, i guess this also is considered to be a "clunky and weird user input," so the help of AHK is also OK to make it easier.
Mon 3 May 2021 8:55 AM by DJ2000
Irkeno wrote: ↑
Mon 3 May 2021 7:51 AM
Honestly if you look at the results of assassins in the 1v1 arena its fairly obvious they arent overtuned because of the presence of /switch.

Give a competent soloer the ability to play a visi class solo and theyll do well, if not better than on their sins.
If that data is representative, the only conclusion would be to buff the assassin classes. (unless they were never supposed to win in the first place)
If that data is not representative, then your comment is useless.

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Mon 3 May 2021 7:51 AM
On top of every roaming group steamrolling visi solos you got 5man hunter grps camping bled 12hrs a day, you got 8mans of rangers and ns’s camping dc waiting til their timers are up to vanish at first sign of trouble, you got the minstrel brigade at beno...

None of whom fight each other, they just go and look to farm solos/smaller numbers than them and rarely, if ever have to go and fight each other, because they just wait to prey on the people who would rather go out/adventure/play the game.
What is there to fight, hmm?
The sheer mention of DC, Beno or Bled area in the same sentence with "solo" is a joke.

You do realize if ppl would "watch and wait their turn" would cause bans? Unless the server hosts less than 100 players total, there is 0 chance to not break the rules, when a visi shows up at these border keeps/bridges/dock.

Don't get me wrong here, the solo visi experience is dreadful at best. For a LOT of reasons.
But complaining about it, when trying to get fights around these keeps, is delusional.
Mon 3 May 2021 8:55 AM by byron
The problem of the /switch (and macros) for assassing is that it is quite easy for them to spam the target with any type of effects without any effort and without any downside, they need just to prepare their weapons before the fight and they are done. If a warrior swap to 2h from 1h+shield, he has more damage but less defence and slower swing rate. So in this case the player needs to evaluate what he needs in that moment. Assassins just spam you any effect to dead using different weapons without any negative side doing that (a part of the strong ego of some of them )
Mon 3 May 2021 9:41 AM by Astaa
I get the whole justification for AHK that the DAOC interface is shonky at best, it is at least a level playing field. The /switch command is a great addition to the game but having styles and back-ups etc essentially automated with 1 button press but only with 3rd party software is just not fair. You're supposed to anticipate actions in a fight, probably even more so in a 1v1, selecting the correct styles when/where/who and being able to pull them off (positionals etc) is the entire point.

Frankly, those that win with AHK, do not win.

Not to mention, many players push well past the rules on AHK use, which is largely undetectable.
Mon 3 May 2021 2:04 PM by Malte2502
A quick "back to topic" Suggestion:
To circumvent the problem regarding weapon swapping on other classes you could make it like this:

Revamp the envenom skilltree as suggested.
Only equipped weapons can be precoated with poison (3 weapons).
If you move a precoated weapon to your inventory, the poison vanishes.
You CAN still swap weapons for proc reasons, but it wouldnt make sense for poison purposes. This way no other classes are affected.
Mon 3 May 2021 3:08 PM by Noashakra
byron wrote: ↑
Mon 3 May 2021 8:55 AM
The problem of the /switch (and macros) for assassing is that it is quite easy for them to spam the target with any type of effects without any effort and without any downside, they need just to prepare their weapons before the fight and they are done. If a warrior swap to 2h from 1h+shield, he has more damage but less defence and slower swing rate. So in this case the player needs to evaluate what he needs in that moment. Assassins just spam you any effect to dead using different weapons without any negative side doing that (a part of the strong ego of some of them )

Yeaaah, switching between 1h+shield between swings doesn't give you the shield defense bonus right? Good tanks swing with their large weapon 100% of the time in solo, and they switch shield during the 2.5s in between. And they just have to click on the shield icon in their bar.
Without any downside, except watching the resists, having to pass the defenses of the adversary and investing hundreads of points in a spec and having the magic damage diminished by AoM EM and the skald/pally/etc. resists. This argument makes no sense. It's like saying "mercenary make more damages with their left hand with each point in dual for free and without effort, because it swing automatically".

If you want to speak about stupid OP brainless things, a zerk 10L put me at 45% life afk with RA 5...
He came back from AFK, and killed me in 3 swings.
Mon 3 May 2021 3:45 PM by byron
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Mon 3 May 2021 3:08 PM
Yeaaah, switching between 1h+shield between swings doesn't give you the shield defense bonus right? Good tanks swing with their large weapon 100% of the time in solo, and they switch shield during the 2.5s in between. And they just have to click on the shield icon in their bar.
Without any downside, except watching the resists, having to pass the defenses of the adversary and investing hundreads of points in a spec and having the magic damage diminished by AoM EM and the skald/pally/etc. resists. This argument makes no sense. It's like saying "mercenary make more damages with their left hand with each point in dual for free and without effort, because it swing automatically".

If you want to speak about stupid OP brainless things, a zerk 10L put me at 45% life afk with RA 5...
He came back from AFK, and killed me in 3 swings.

Lets' take a warrior: the warrior has 3 slots : 1hand + shield + 2 hand. they are already equipped so if the player wants to swap the weapons from 1h to 2h on every swing good for him (but I hope here there isn't any macro that helps to do that, I consider this type of macro as a cheat but it is my personal opinion...). The assassins have 3-4 weapons in the inventory with dots/debuffs/effects already applied... I see a difference, don't you ?
Then, I found that a 10L zerk specced for solo with dual reflex 5 (a lot of points) can defeat an assassin, but for sure you had vanish down... and if you complain about reflex attack (that few players have both for the required points and for the play style), many can complain about Viper (that every assassin has).
Mon 3 May 2021 4:35 PM by Nephamael
The problem here is AHK not the ability to swap weapons.

The ability to swap different weapons for different procs adds a lot of skill based play to melee classes on Phoenix. Removing this option would lower the fun on the server.

( I manually drag my weapons into inventory for poison swaps - i think it takes a tremendous amount of training = skill, to do it well at a high swing speed. - Same for the shield swap, you have to know your own cooldown, count in attack speed or d/q debuffs, if you do it manually. - the problem here is AHK.)

- While i see the benefit to allow AHK for older/disabled players, i think it is a huge problem for the competitive/esports/fair-play part of DaoC Phoenix. -
Mon 3 May 2021 5:01 PM by thalamar
To summerize some suggestions here:

weaponswapping:
- add swingspeed of the weapon, you swap in, to your current attack delay (no matter if it comes from your inventory or from another active slot)

poisons:
- you can only apply poison to active weapons - moving them to the inventory will negate the poison effect on the weapon
- change the poison-tree to skills with delays and maximum-poison-applies depending on hardpoints

If I've missed something than please just quote and add, thank you.
Mon 3 May 2021 5:18 PM by Kurbsen
thalamar wrote: ↑
Mon 3 May 2021 5:01 PM
To summerize some suggestions here:

weaponswapping:
- add swingspeed of the weapon, you swap in, to your current attack delay (no matter if it comes from your inventory or from another active slot)

poisons:
- you can only apply poison to active weapons - moving them to the inventory will negate the poison effect on the weapon
- change the poison-tree to skills with delays and maximum-poison-applies depending on hardpoints

If I've missed something than please just quote and add, thank you.

uth/schaf please dont do these terrible suggestions lmao
Mon 3 May 2021 8:10 PM by Guerrilla Monkey
So much QQ after killed by Assa ...
And we better not fight in RvR, let's just argue to see who wins!
Mon 3 May 2021 8:24 PM by Noashakra
byron wrote: ↑
Mon 3 May 2021 3:45 PM
Then, I found that a 10L zerk specced for solo with dual reflex 5 (a lot of points) can defeat an assassin, but for sure you had vanish down... and if you complain about reflex attack (that few players have both for the required points and for the play style), many can complain about Viper (that every assassin has).

lmao, a lot of sins don't have it. I have it to 3 on my NS and 2 on my inf. I think exo don't have it at all.
Viper is not on the same level as RA. It's impossible to kill a solo light tank 1vs1 with RA if you are a melee(you would have to kite, but they all have snare styles, if they are good, you can't escape). You can't apply poison AFK, you can't kill 2 melee hitting you at the same time with poisons (you can kill 3 people with a merc with RA 5, you don't even have to fumble).

Assassins were thought with the weapon switch in their design. If you don't apply your poisons after purge you are dead. That's why they have one of the worst damage table of the game. They kill with poisons, you know, because they are assassins!

PS: if you play your hero with only 1 LW, you don't play your class well. Hero has LW with add damage 11.3 that you need to switch when it procs. You also need to play with a spear to rear snare. Bm/Merc can't hold a shield and a left hand, so they need to switch too. My BM has 3 weapons (debuff d/q, haste, LT) and 2 shields (add dmg and abla) I can go and and on and on.
Tue 4 May 2021 10:16 AM by Saroi
What I find a bit funny in general is most complaints are about Sins swapping. Which is ofc true, but that is not because of the envenom mechanic, simply because there is a /switch command, which let's you easily change your offhand to for extra poison while on live it was just Mainhand drag. 2 poisons vs 1 or on the 2 attackround it is 4 poisons vs 2. That is flawed/issue.

The other complain is about Fulltanks or Hybrids switching between shield and 2h for damage and defence. Being even called abuse by Grün.

Nowhere do I read any complaints about BM and Merc being able to switch between their offhand and shield because of the /switch command. This is actually true abuse because this was never possible and is a Phoenix only thing, making BM/Merc as main damage dealers also having an incredible high defence, which should not be possible but somehow every thinks that is fine just because "hey they are Lighttanks".
Tue 4 May 2021 11:18 AM by Tamy
Saroi wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 10:16 AM
What I find a bit funny in general is most complaints are about Sins swapping. Which is ofc true, but that is not because of the envenom mechanic, simply because there is a /switch command, which let's you easily change your offhand to for extra poison while on live it was just Mainhand drag. 2 poisons vs 1 or on the 2 attackround it is 4 poisons vs 2. That is flawed/issue.

The other complain is about Fulltanks or Hybrids switching between shield and 2h for damage and difference. Being even called abuse by Grün.

Nowhere do I read any complaints about BM and Merc being able to switch between their offhand and shield because of the /switch command. This is actually true abuse because this was never possible and is a Phoenix only thing, making BM/Merc as main damage dealers also having an incredible high defence, which should not be possible but somehow every thinks that is fine just because "hey they are Lighttanks".

Exactly...it's easier for me to switch to shield between hits on my solo BM than on my 1h/2h tanks. There I got to make one /switch macro on the others I switch between two mouse buttons. of course I could also just do a 2h slot only macro on my other tanks but I stated it out to mainly prove the point that calling 1h/2h abuse and letting lighttanks have a /switch between 1h/s and dw is a joke.
Tue 4 May 2021 11:20 AM by Noashakra
Saroi wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 10:16 AM
What I find a bit funny in general is most complaints are about Sins swapping. Which is ofc true, but that is not because of the envenom mechanic, simply because there is a /switch command, which let's you easily change your offhand to for extra poison while on live it was just Mainhand drag. 2 poisons vs 1 or on the 2 attackround it is 4 poisons vs 2. That is flawed/issue.

The other complain is about Fulltanks or Hybrids switching between shield and 2h for damage and difference. Being even called abuse by Grün.

Nowhere do I read any complaints about BM and Merc being able to switch between their offhand and shield because of the /switch command. This is actually true abuse because this was never possible and is a Phoenix only thing, making BM/Merc as main damage dealers also having an incredible high defence, which should not be possible but somehow every thinks that is fine just because "hey they are Lighttanks".

It's because they are biased against sins and they have no objectivity.
Weapon swap is a big deal even for tanks in 1vs1. But of course those people don't do it. The shield swap is actually a huge deal for sins to deal with (and hello, on live the dual penetration vs shields was 50% and not 25% like on phoenix, but tell me again how assassins, who on top can't reapply lifebane at every swing, are overtuned here).
Tue 4 May 2021 11:20 AM by keen
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 12:26 PM
items or rr, as it would be actual skills granted at different spec levels, would have huge spec implications and remove a major benefit assassins gain from higher rr.
due to viper they aready have a huge advantage in rr progess regarding realm points spent compared to other melee chars. so i dont see a problem there.
Tue 4 May 2021 11:22 AM by Noashakra
keen wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 11:20 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 1 May 2021 12:26 PM
items or rr, as it would be actual skills granted at different spec levels, would have huge spec implications and remove a major benefit assassins gain from higher rr.
due to viper they aready have a huge advantage in rr progess regarding realm points spent compared to other melee chars. so i dont see a problem there.


That's why any tank 7L+ played correctly will destroy a sin 11L+, because of the huge rr advantage progress xD
Sins are much better chances low rank vs low rank tank... The defense advantage with MoParry and MoB is too strong after rr 6/7 (combined with reflex attack for light tanks, you can't out dps them)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3vlPmmKrpw&t=670s&ab_channel=Drunkstains
I love when he destoys brainstorm (one of the strongest NS of the server 11L+ on the video) with purge and IP up. Must be because of the major benefits of the rank.

I fought drunkstains when he was RR5, it was 60/40 for my NS 9L. Since he is 7L, I can't kill him, I can't even make him drop IP.
People claming assassins are too strong are delusional. Of course, they never give us the name of their solo toon, because we would be pointing out how bad they are or because they never solo and just hate the class.
Tue 4 May 2021 11:57 PM by Nephamael
That's why any tank 7L+ played correctly will destroy a sin 11L+, because of the huge rr advantage progress xD
Sins are much better chances low rank vs low rank tank... The defense advantage with MoParry and MoB is too strong after rr 6/7 (combined with reflex attack for light tanks, you can't out dps them)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3vlPmmKrpw&t=670s&ab_channel=Drunkstains
I love when he destoys brainstorm (one of the strongest NS of the server 11L+ on the video) with purge and IP up. Must be because of the major benefits of the rank.

I fought drunkstains when he was RR5, it was 60/40 for my NS 9L. Since he is 7L, I can't kill him, I can't even make him drop IP.
People claming assassins are too strong are delusional. Of course, they never give us the name of their solo toon, because we would be pointing out how bad they are or because they never solo and just hate the class.

Assassins are 2 strong vs casters on Phoenix. Or are solo casters too weak in general?

A tank specced to counter assassins counters assassins very well on Phoenix (i lost one bo3 vs a sin in the last solo duel arena with my hero, spear specced! i won all other bo3s vs sins, 10-15ish)

- if only solo casters were viable we could all be happily soloing, knowing there is a rock/paper/scissors balance.

Remove vanish (because vanish denies solo casters most of their potential RP gain)
Put quickcast resistrate for solo casters to 0-2.5% if the spell is capped
= solo game balanced
Wed 5 May 2021 7:41 AM by Noashakra
Reemove moc in 1vs1 if you remove vanish... People complain about vanish but moc drain is really the worst cheese ever in solo.
Also, no caster are not weak in solo. If you have two CC, you can beat any stealther, you just have to spec correctly with concentration as a RA.
It's just that most solo caster don't know how to play / spec their toon.
I've seen solo wizards/theu/sorc destroy assassins. Let's not speak about BD, SM and now chanters.
Wed 5 May 2021 10:38 AM by keen
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 7:41 AM
Reemove moc in 1vs1 if you remove vanish... People complain about vanish but moc drain is really the worst cheese ever in solo.
Also, no caster are not weak in solo. If you have two CC, you can beat any stealther, you just have to spec correctly with concentration as a RA.
It's just that most solo caster don't know how to play / spec their toon.
I've seen solo wizards/theu/sorc destroy assassins. Let's not speak about BD, SM and now chanters.
Let's put it this way, your experience is very different to most others and might not reflect reality.
Wed 5 May 2021 12:04 PM by Noashakra
keen wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 10:38 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 7:41 AM
Reemove moc in 1vs1 if you remove vanish... People complain about vanish but moc drain is really the worst cheese ever in solo.
Also, no caster are not weak in solo. If you have two CC, you can beat any stealther, you just have to spec correctly with concentration as a RA.
It's just that most solo caster don't know how to play / spec their toon.
I've seen solo wizards/theu/sorc destroy assassins. Let's not speak about BD, SM and now chanters.
Let's put it this way, your experience is very different to most others and might not reflect reality.

Show us your solo kills and we can speak.

In the mean time you can watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqA9LkgQmxY&ab_channel=Tr1gg4hGaming
From experience, because i fought with him and lost, I can tell you : mages are not weak in solo vs sins.

80%+ of the population on this server don't know to play their toon correctly. And to be fair I don't even consider myself part of the top 15%.
It's stange that people like Yarna for example (one of the best solo visi player imo) doesn't share the opinion on sins as most of the players on this forum...
I remember when faturday (10L) complained about thane being week in solo and how he could not kill any sins 1vs1, and then I fought Lhei on her thane 5L an she wooped my ass without using IP.

The best sins (exo tani etc.) are all very skilled players, and they get the most of their class. I remember on another post, when people told me there wasn't enough time between a PA to slam (lol yeah, 1.5s/1.6s isn't enough, I think I know where is the problem in that case)... It's easier to say it's the fault of the weapon swap if you can't win (they cry because sins use many weapons, but they have only one weapon/shield and don't switch depending on the procs). I see all the time people moving the camera with their keyboard, playing 100% with the mouse and without qbinds, etc etc.
Wed 5 May 2021 1:30 PM by Babajaga
Hey,
just wanted to say that since the moment when a melee ranger (probably the worst melee spec class) can beat high sins, no one has excuses.

As Noash said, ppl have to l2p not only their toons but also their opponents classes and diff sort of gameplay to counter them..
Wed 5 May 2021 1:40 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Babajaga wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 1:30 PM
melee ranger (probably the worst melee spec class)

Not even close.
Wed 5 May 2021 2:07 PM by Noashakra
Yes, hunters are close but scouts are worst. But it's definitly bottom of the barrel on this server.
Wed 5 May 2021 4:27 PM by Nephamael
Reemove moc in 1vs1 if you remove vanish... People complain about vanish but moc drain is really the worst cheese ever in solo.
Also, no caster are not weak in solo. If you have two CC, you can beat any stealther, you just have to spec correctly with concentration as a RA.
It's just that most solo caster don't know how to play / spec their toon.
I've seen solo wizards/theu/sorc destroy assassins. Let's not speak about BD, SM and now chanters.

This is the ever same excuse for keeping vanish, so 75%+ of SOLO assassins can use it in clean 1v1s, where the caster does not moc.
(even vs moccing lifetap casters i easily hold a 80-90% winrate on my ns)

Vanish is the biggest reason, even before smallmen and 8men rolling over visi solos, for the non-existence of solo casters on Phoenix. If it does not go, solo casters will not return and the rock/paper/scissors balance will remain broken.
Wed 5 May 2021 4:45 PM by Irkeno
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 4:27 PM
Reemove moc in 1vs1 if you remove vanish... People complain about vanish but moc drain is really the worst cheese ever in solo.
Also, no caster are not weak in solo. If you have two CC, you can beat any stealther, you just have to spec correctly with concentration as a RA.
It's just that most solo caster don't know how to play / spec their toon.
I've seen solo wizards/theu/sorc destroy assassins. Let's not speak about BD, SM and now chanters.

This is the ever same excuse for keeping vanish, so 75%+ of SOLO assassins can use it in clean 1v1s, where the caster does not moc.
(even vs moccing lifetap casters i easily hold a 80-90% winrate on my ns)

Vanish is the biggest reason, even before smallmen and 8men rolling over visi solos, for the non-existence of solo casters on Phoenix. If it does not go, solo casters will not return and the rock/paper/scissors balance will remain broken.

Generally I agree with you Neph, but, this is bonkers. Far and away the most infuriating part of visi solo is small/groups steamrolling you. Sins can vanish, sure, but the good ones/respectable ones dont and the bad ones are easy kills anyway, and normally hang around with 5/6 stealths anyway, so the problem isnt vanish there its the group again.
Wed 5 May 2021 8:26 PM by soremir
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 4:27 PM
Vanish is the biggest reason, even before smallmen and 8men rolling over visi solos, for the non-existence of solo casters on Phoenix. If it does not go, solo casters will not return and the rock/paper/scissors balance will remain broken.

I agree with this, although it seems other feel differently about what is most annoying: getting stomped and rolled by 8-mans/small-mans or 1v1 vanish. The biggest frustration for the visi solos I know is 1v1 vanish. Getting run down by larger groups is annoying, but is just part of the deal we signed up for if you want to visit solo, especially on one with lesser/no speed.
Wed 5 May 2021 9:11 PM by Nephamael
Generally I agree with you Neph, but, this is bonkers. Far and away the most infuriating part of visi solo is small/groups steamrolling you. Sins can vanish, sure, but the good ones/respectable ones dont and the bad ones are easy kills anyway, and normally hang around with 5/6 stealths anyway, so the problem isnt vanish there its the group again.

You underestimate, how big of a deal 1v1 vanish is for a solo caster in the frontier.

Tanks run from you as a caster at sight and hide on bridges/near obstacles, so you don't rly get to kill a lot of them.
Other casters are so extremely rare, that it is a special day if you find a caster 1v1.
Almost all of your clean 1v1s are assassins as solo caster, as they can attack you where they please. And almost all of those vanish in every single clean 1v1, if they lost.

Yes, sadly almost all the good ones do this too, it is a big shame. Try a solo caster for 1 week and i promise you will say the vanish rate is bonkers, not what i said here.

I stopped soloing on my eld for only one reason: vanish in clean 1v1s. I am willing to accept all the other extreme hardships of visible solo caster - but i am not willing to get denied almost all of my clean and hard earned 1v1 wins.
Wed 5 May 2021 11:17 PM by ptitbiscuit
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 9:11 PM
Generally I agree with you Neph, but, this is bonkers. Far and away the most infuriating part of visi solo is small/groups steamrolling you. Sins can vanish, sure, but the good ones/respectable ones dont and the bad ones are easy kills anyway, and normally hang around with 5/6 stealths anyway, so the problem isnt vanish there its the group again.

You underestimate, how big of a deal 1v1 vanish is for a solo caster in the frontier.

Tanks run from you as a caster at sight and hide on bridges/near obstacles, so you don't rly get to kill a lot of them.
Other casters are so extremely rare, that it is a special day if you find a caster 1v1.
Almost all of your clean 1v1s are assassins as solo caster, as they can attack you where they please. And almost all of those vanish in every single clean 1v1, if they lost.

Yes, sadly almost all the good ones do this too, it is a big shame. Try a solo caster for 1 week and i promise you will say the vanish rate is bonkers, not what i said here.

I stopped soloing on my eld for only one reason: vanish in clean 1v1s. I am willing to accept all the other extreme hardships of visible solo caster - but i am not willing to get denied almost all of my clean and hard earned 1v1 wins.


hard earned kills , whats hard earned purging stun Qc stun sin purge refresh qc mezz kill and go 2 keep wait 15mins ? or in case of a theu/caba/sorc moc and go to keep every 15mins... also friendly reminder vanish has a 15min cooldown. whats hard earned now that enchant pet not only snare u but root and desease , so even if u arent rooted u are snared by dd and diseased ! im amazed of the hard skill it requires. maybe the skill is to get away alive from a stealth opening maybe ? not even sure tbf. the only skill anf hard earned kills in the solo community is these of heros pallys warrs and tanks that dont have speed/stealth in general.
Thu 6 May 2021 10:43 AM by Babajaga
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 1:40 PM
Babajaga wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 1:30 PM
melee ranger (probably the worst melee spec class)

Not even close.

i said melee SPEC. scouts are snipers and hunters mostly hybrids, they do not running full melee.
The point is that every class can do great, all depend who is behind..
Thu 6 May 2021 10:59 AM by Tommylad
OMG, this game is turning into a massive effin word salad. Now don't forget that most of these nerfs...oops I mean changes only apply if you read about them on the second Tuesday of the third quarter of Spring, and then only if it isn't raining.
Thu 6 May 2021 1:05 PM by keen
Babajaga wrote: ↑
Thu 6 May 2021 10:43 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 1:40 PM
Babajaga wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 1:30 PM
melee ranger (probably the worst melee spec class)

Not even close.

i said melee SPEC. scouts are snipers and hunters mostly hybrids, they do not running full melee.
The point is that every class can do great, all depend who is behind..
Sure, that's why you see millions of melee rangers and almost no assassins. Cause melee rangers just outperform then! It's getting ridiculous here again. Now solo casters and rangers are op, wow.
Thu 6 May 2021 9:17 PM by Nephamael
hard earned kills , whats hard earned purging stun Qc stun sin purge refresh qc mezz kill and go 2 keep wait 15mins ? or in case of a theu/caba/sorc moc and go to keep every 15mins... also friendly reminder vanish has a 15min cooldown. whats hard earned now that enchant pet not only snare u but root and desease , so even if u arent rooted u are snared by dd and diseased ! im amazed of the hard skill it requires. maybe the skill is to get away alive from a stealth opening maybe ? not even sure tbf. the only skill anf hard earned kills in the solo community is these of heros pallys warrs and tanks that dont have speed/stealth in general.

You are full of those completely absurd ideas about solo casters actually when those still existed on this server they were applauded like noone else for going out without RAs - as a solo caster you can easily achieve the highest death per minute rate of all solos (because of the sins).

The problem about vanish is, noone forces the sin to attack again after vanish, so you can have 10 1v1s vs sins in a row, they all vanish and noone ever tries you again until his vanish is back up that's not some theory here, it is actually exactly how the reality of frontier solo caster looks like.

Try a solo caster for a week, then tell me again what is harder to play well- i personally think there is nothing so relaxed like playing my hero solo and nothing as hectic as playing eld solo - even manually swapping weapons on my ns at swing cap feels more chill.
Sat 8 May 2021 2:15 PM by Noashakra
keen wrote: ↑
Thu 6 May 2021 1:05 PM
Babajaga wrote: ↑
Thu 6 May 2021 10:43 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 1:40 PM
Babajaga wrote: ↑
Wed 5 May 2021 1:30 PM
melee ranger (probably the worst melee spec class)

Not even close.

i said melee SPEC. scouts are snipers and hunters mostly hybrids, they do not running full melee.
The point is that every class can do great, all depend who is behind..
Sure, that's why you see millions of melee rangers and almost no assassins. Cause melee rangers just outperform then! It's getting ridiculous here again. Now solo casters and rangers are op, wow.

Lmao, he didn't say that and he plays ranger melee...
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