BM Dps - Phoenix Freeshard

Hello everyone,

We've made some test about the BM dmg and we noticed their dmg is very low compared to Alb/mid

Merco has 4.0 weapons speed + back peels and real dmg
Zerk don't think i need to explain

I suggest to add some lowest speed on hib (Piercing/slash)
Or to adjuste the dmg made by BM

We've made many test to see what can be the best dmg on it and even having the best weapons and spec we need 11 hits and sometimes more (when i'm full buff by bard and druid) to kill an SB (when i was with slash) and he's potion buff.

I used to remember BM has real dps on olds times, what happened here ?

What you guys think about my suggestion ?

Fri 2 Apr 2021 1:00 PM by Succi

show us your tests bro

Fri 2 Apr 2021 1:18 PM by Freedomcall

I'm speechless

Fri 2 Apr 2021 1:31 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Assuming controlled variables, BM, Merc, and Zerk damage are all the same.

Fri 2 Apr 2021 1:32 PM by Ardri

You’re 1 day late for April fools.

Fri 2 Apr 2021 2:02 PM by Carina

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Apr 2021 1:31 PM
Assuming controlled variables, BM, Merc, and Zerk damage are all the same.

That's a real joke

Guys, its a fact. You can say w/e you want (also i can) but the bm dps is the lowest from the 3 realms.

I invite each of you to play bm on rvr and you guys will understand.

I'm not making suggestions for nothing ^^ they can be accepted or rejected but that's again a fact.

BM is the lowest dps of the 3 realms

Fri 2 Apr 2021 2:40 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Carina wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Apr 2021 2:02 PM
I invite each of you to play bm on rvr and you guys will understand.

...

BM is the lowest dps of the 3 realms

I've got a 5.7 Zerk, a 5.3 Merc, and a 5.2 BM on Phoenix -- the BM performs better than the Zerk, and the Merc performs better than the BM. Maybe you're used to the bullshit that is light tanks on Live? Because here, BM is in a good place comparatively to the other light tanks.

Fri 2 Apr 2021 2:42 PM by Nephamael

facts first:

BM Backsnare: 0.65 gr (12s snare)
BM Sidesnare: 0.64 gr (14s snare) blade // 0.68 gr (15s snare) pierce

vs

Zerker backsnare: 0.74 gr (23s snare)
Zerker sidesnare: 0.69 gr (15s snare)

vs

Merc backsnare: 0.65 gr (12s snare)
Merc sidesnare: 0.85 gr (12s snare)

Result:
The 2 styles most used by all offtanks have the lowest dps for BM, while merc is not far away in dmg/snare duration and only zerker is way better on both.
Zerker backsnare and merc sidesnare have a slightly lower hitrate (no offense bonus) - while i am sure every BM would gladly trade their snares with zerk back/merc side, a rebalance here could simply upp bm backsnare to 0.69 and both sidesnares to 0.69 and be done with it. Or increase the backsnare duration significantly enough to justify the low dmg.

-------------------------------------------
Now to the DPS styles:

BM sidechain is the highest dps chain for BM at:

1) 0.77 gr 2) 1.0 gr 15 bleed40s 3) 1.25 gr = average 1.006 gr if all 3 styles would always land = the real result is lower, as landing the 3rd style in a 3 style chain doesn't happen so often

(BM backchain is very low dps with 1) 0.65 gr 2) 0.88 gr 3) 0.88 gr = average 0.803 gr

vs

Zerker

EDIT:

Zerker highest dps is 3 style la backstyle chain at:

1) 0.95 gr 2) 1.1 gr 9 bleed 40s 3) 1.25 gr + 95dd (and 15 to hit bonus) = average 1.1 gr+ 95dd per 3rd style [1.1025 if only 2 styles hit]

EDIT END

Zerker has no side or frontchain with gr over Anytimer Doublefrost at 0.75 gr.

vs

Merc highest dps chain is 2 style sidechain at:

1) 0.85 gr 2) 1.05 gr = 0.95 average gr [compare to 0.885 gr with BM landing 2 styles or 1.006 with BM landing 3 styles]

Merc has a backchain at 1) 0.69 gr 2) 0.92 gr = average 0.805 gr

and a frontal style at 0.83 gr + 40s 25 bleed (=250 dmg, stacks up to 2 times to reach bleed cap)

Result:
On the pure DPS side of things Zerker outperforms BM and Merc by a good margin.
Merc and BM are pretty close in positional dps.

The main disadvantage BM has is the lack of a dps anytimer or combo or frontal.

Zerk: 0.75 gr anytime - Merc 0.83 gr frontal + 25 bleed 40 s - BM 0.59 gr anytimer

To fix this the anytime style combo Hurricane, Solar Flare could be reworked.
Right now Hurricane is at 0.49 gr and Solar Flare Followup at 0.81 gr - both have 5 to hit bonus and no other effects (an abysmal average 0.65 gr if both styles always hit).

The easiest fix would be simply upping Hurricane to 0.75 gr and Solar Flare to 0.92 gr at the current to hit bonus.

Another option would be to make Hurricane a frontal style with 0.8x gr - 0.85 snare or 0.81 bleed 10 offense bonus and then upping Solar Flare to 0.92 with an attack speed debuff or 0.88 with a bleed and 10 offense bonus.

Fri 2 Apr 2021 6:19 PM by boridi

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Apr 2021 2:42 PM
Zerker

Zerker highest dps is 50 la backstyle at:

1 style, 1.25 gr + 95dd (and 15 to hit bonus) = average 1.25 gr+ 95dd per style

Zerker has no side or frontchain with gr over Anytimer Doublefrost at 0.75 gr.

vs

That's a 3 part chain... Also, zerk has no flurry and no shield. Slam, guard, numb, and engage are very useful.

Fri 2 Apr 2021 9:30 PM by Carina

I made some test (30 sec test)

TEST BLADE 4.1 - 3.1 BM BACK PEEL DRUID BUFF MOA 6 (Average 134,4 Swing cap 1.5)
1 - 121
2 - 129
3 - 147
4 - 131
5-144
6 - 136
7 - 137
8 - 147
9 - 132
10 - 114
11 - 124
12 - 150
13 - 128
14 - 139
15 - 114
16 - 133
17 -159

TOTAL : 2 286

TEST BLADE 4.1 - 3.1 BM TAUNT DRUID BUFF MOA 6 (average 120 Swing cap 1.5 )
1 -105
2 - 123
3 - 104
4 - 108
5 - 143
6 - 151
7 - MISS
8 - 142
9 - 141
10 - 121
11 - 123
12 - 114
13 - 135
14 - 147
15 - 139
16 - 142
17 - 113

TOTAL : 2048

TEST BLADE BM 4.1 - 3.1 BACK PEEL NO SWIMP CAP DRUID BUFF MOA 6 (Average 155,4)
1- 155
2- 143
3 -139
4 -157
5 -188
6 - 139
7 - 139
8 - 163
9 - 188
10 -146
11 - 162
12 - 165
13 - 137

Total : 2021

TEST BM PIERCING 3.9 - 3.3 BACK PEEL NO SWIMP CAP BUFF DRUID MOA 6 (Average 131,6)
1 - 116
2 - 163
3 - 142
4 - 129
5 - 139
6 -144
7 - 134
8 - 161
9 - 150
10 - 148
11 - 119
12 - 164
13- MISS

Total : 1709

If we add with the swing cap we can had 4 hits at 131,6 Avarage

Total : 2103

Ok so that's test on 30 sec each time and did it few times

I asked some nice people to tell me how much lifes they got on their chars full buffed by shaman (can be changed by moa)

MID :
Shaman : 2288 HP
Heal : 2307 HP
Skald : 2556 HP
RM (caster in general) : 1740 HP
Zerk : 3137 HP
Svg : 2891 HP
Warrior : 2937 HP

Means the bm need between 30 and 45 seconds hitting EVERY HIT without BT/Debuff/Potions/IH

I'm kinda lazy to do the alb also but i think you get my point.

Also tried many other things like some ppl told me to do but the result its kinda similar

Fri 2 Apr 2021 10:25 PM by SinfulByNature

Without the spec of the BM and the Damage modfiers to look at these numbers are a bit pointless. You dont know maximum damage potential and you can tell what the damage is. Is it Damage add + Mainhand swing? You should include more information.

TEST BM PIERCING 3.9 - 3.3 BACK PEEL NO SWIMP CAP BUFF DRUID MOA 6 (Average 131,6)
1 - 116
2 - 163
3 - 142
4 - 129
5 - 139
6 -144
7 - 134
8 - 161
9 - 150
10 - 148
11 - 119
12 - 164
13- MISS

Also why not use a 4.3 Broodmothers Fang and a 2.3 Rog? DoT proc is understandable for CC but if your aim is to kill as fast as possible the Consistant Damage from a slower mainhand would be better even if not completely hitting swing cap. But if your Celt with 60 Base quick you can hit swing cap with this set up with 6 arms 5 AugQuick.

Sat 3 Apr 2021 12:42 AM by Freedomcall

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Apr 2021 2:42 PM
.....

Tbh saying "zerker's AB chain is a 1 style chain" makes me wonder if you have played zerker on Phoenix... hm
You said that "Every BM will gladly trade Snow Shower with Conquer", but I'm pretty sure most of the zerkers will gladly trade THEIR CLASS with BM if they can.
Zerkers are not able to spec shield, and this already means they are greatly disadvantageous in not only defense but also in offense.

1. They can't guard their groupmates like BMs.
2. They can't swap to shield when being hard assisted like BMs.
3. They can't engage archers when they are hit by arrows like BMs.
4. They can't use shield styles and thus, in pretty lot of cases, they have to deal with "moving targets".
This is why zerkers are forced to use hammer styles rather than LA rear chain more than often.

Side stun from CD is an important factor as well, cuz it is not just a 4-sec stun, but is the start of Supernova chain.
Your opponent will have to decide between 1. purge and lose stun immunity in 24 seconds and 2. save it and use it later on slam,
and if he doesn't purge, that means you can land all 3 styles on a defenseless target.

And you forgot to mention their special abilities: vendo and triple wield.
Vendo enables you to crit every swing for 20 seconds, but you lose every defensive abilities which negates advanced evade 3.
Triple wield gives you extra dmg add and plus, immunity against melee crits for 30 seconds.
So this means TW is not only good for offense but also good for your defense while vendo literally makes themselves a defenseless assist target.
What do you think is better? If you ask me, I would choose TW.

Not to mention flurry grants BMs a nice DD every 2 minutes you can utilize when stealing deathblows lol

I'm not saying zerkers need a buff though, cuz they have an access to celerity, and this seems like a pretty reasonable trade off.
But that is what you can get from grouping aug healers, so that's a different story from comparing classes themselves.
If Phoenix were a cross-realm server, and you can choose between BM+aug healers and zerker+aug healers, I'm pretty sure most of the players will prefer the first one.

Sat 3 Apr 2021 1:06 AM by Freedomcall

Carina wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Apr 2021 9:30 PM
I made some test (30 sec test)

TEST BLADE 4.1 - 3.1 BM BACK PEEL DRUID BUFF MOA 6 (Average 134,4 Swing cap 1.5)
1 - 121
2 - 129
3 - 147
4 - 131
5-144
6 - 136
7 - 137
8 - 147
9 - 132
10 - 114
11 - 124
12 - 150
13 - 128
14 - 139
15 - 114
16 - 133
17 -159

TOTAL : 2 286

TEST BLADE 4.1 - 3.1 BM TAUNT DRUID BUFF MOA 6 (average 120 Swing cap 1.5 )
1 -105
2 - 123
3 - 104
4 - 108
5 - 143
6 - 151
7 - MISS
8 - 142
9 - 141
10 - 121
11 - 123
12 - 114
13 - 135
14 - 147
15 - 139
16 - 142
17 - 113

TOTAL : 2048

TEST BLADE BM 4.1 - 3.1 BACK PEEL NO SWIMP CAP DRUID BUFF MOA 6 (Average 155,4)
1- 155
2- 143
3 -139
4 -157
5 -188
6 - 139
7 - 139
8 - 163
9 - 188
10 -146
11 - 162
12 - 165
13 - 137

Total : 2021

TEST BM PIERCING 3.9 - 3.3 BACK PEEL NO SWIMP CAP BUFF DRUID MOA 6 (Average 131,6)
1 - 116
2 - 163
3 - 142
4 - 129
5 - 139
6 -144
7 - 134
8 - 161
9 - 150
10 - 148
11 - 119
12 - 164
13- MISS

Total : 1709

If we add with the swing cap we can had 4 hits at 131,6 Avarage

Total : 2103

Ok so that's test on 30 sec each time and did it few times

I asked some nice people to tell me how much lifes they got on their chars full buffed by shaman (can be changed by moa)

MID :
Shaman : 2288 HP
Heal : 2307 HP
Skald : 2556 HP
RM (caster in general) : 1740 HP
Zerk : 3137 HP
Svg : 2891 HP
Warrior : 2937 HP

Means the bm need between 30 and 45 seconds hitting EVERY HIT without BT/Debuff/Potions/IH

I'm kinda lazy to do the alb also but i think you get my point.

Also tried many other things like some ppl told me to do but the result its kinda similar

This comment even makes me speechless cuz that is not even a proper test you've done, and there are so many errors.

1. You said BM dps is very low compared to Alb/Mid and where is your test you've done with merc/zerk?
2. Even with 4.1/2.5 + qui250 + druid 0.17 haste + MoArms5, you are slightly off from swing cap.
How do you reach swing cap with 4.1/3.1?
3. If you are going to use 3.1 speed offhand regardless, you should include your offhand damage as well, cuz "Swings slower but hits harder" is the point of using slower offhand.
4. According to your HP numbers, even the zerker has more HP than the warrior, which is impossible in same condition(buff/temp/race/starting stat).
At this point, I'm suspicious if you are serious, or you are just trying to troll.

Sat 3 Apr 2021 2:16 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Apr 2021 1:06 AM
At this point, I'm suspicious if you are serious, or you are just trying to troll.

I think he's serious, but he doesn't understand anything about game mechanics.

Sat 3 Apr 2021 2:50 AM by Nephamael

That's a 3 part chain... Also, zerk has no flurry and no shield. Slam, guard, numb, and engage are very useful.

My apologies, i corrected it - zerker is still significantly higher in overall dps potential, but not as dramatically as i said before.

Zerkers are not able to spec shield, and this already means they are greatly disadvantageous in not only defense but also in offense.

1. They can't guard their groupmates like BMs.
2. They can't swap to shield when being hard assisted like BMs.
3. They can't engage archers when they are hit by arrows like BMs.
4. They can't use shield styles and thus, in pretty lot of cases, they have to deal with "moving targets".
This is why zerkers are forced to use hammer styles rather than LA rear chain more than often.

The main problem of all 3 offtanks in the current /gvg meta is the selfbreak on their snares, if the mainhand misses/gets defended and the offhand hits.
Zerker is suffering more from this effect, as his offhand swingrate is 100% (which is usually an advantage but not if the mainhand misses).
This effect gets stronger by conquer only having a 85% hitrate - so even vs an unguarded target you have a 15% default break my own snare rate as zerker, where as a BM or Merc only have to deal with a 5% break my own snare rate. (regarding the rear snare you use in 9/10 hits in 8v8)

Conquer being completely broken at 23s snare duration (1s short of double duration vs bm/merc backsnare) is a topic of its own, so i won't touch it more than necessary.

I personally think all 3 offtanks need help right now and i think the easiest fix would be making offhand hits not break snares.

That said - BM struggles the most of the 3 because he has low snare duration + low dps + no decent anytimer or frontal and on top of that he has no endu, which is a general hib problem and needs to be fixed.
BM back snare costs double the endu of conquer - Most hib groups run 1 bard, so 90% of all fights you have endureg3. Alb has endu reduction buff and mid has shaman endu on top of half the cost for 9/10 styles.

Sat 3 Apr 2021 8:57 AM by Patron

Realms are and should not mirrored. Mid is melee realm and as a hib, i have very no problem to see in midside better melee-classes.
And the idea of offhandswings not break snare is ... insane.
And 90 % of all hibgroups not have bard? THats not my experience and there are enducharge items.

Sat 3 Apr 2021 11:09 AM by Noashakra

BM if I am not wrong damage table is under the merc and zerk.
It was normal under certain conditions :
The zerk has no access to flurry and shield and has longer peels
The merc was a worst peeler (no back snare)
The fact the merc has the same peel now made the BM much worst in the comparaison. But as it is, he has a nice spot in hib tanker. I don't think you need to up the BM, but it's a fact that the BM has the worst styles of the 3 now.

No BM in the right mind would use the 4.3, because an endu drain is useless on most targets and you would lose dps vs a DD/LT compared to a 4.2 with those procs.
2.3 blade doesn't exsist, it's 2.5 even for rogs.

With 17% haste, quick 3 and MoA 7 + A drood with MoArc 7 you can reach the swing speed with a 4.2+2.5.
MoA 7 is so much points, I don't even have the 3 and my BM is 6L4. I don't think it's realistic until really high rank.

And 90 % of all hibgroups not have bard? THats not my experience and there are enducharge items. > He said endo not bard, because you know your bard has to twist to give you endo, and it can take a while if the bard needs to CC or is rupted.

I play savage, warrior and BM, and it's night and day for endo... I am almost never OOE on mid.
I don't think light tanks are in a bad spot though. They are in a fine place.

30s tests are useless, you need hundreads of hits to start drawing a conclusion.
Also 3.1 and 3.3 off hands, you are nerfing yourself...

Sat 3 Apr 2021 2:06 PM by Carina

Mid has :
Celerity 1500 range
Svg
Zerk

Alb has :
Theu pets
Necro debuff
Sorc (mezz range)

Hib have :
Cure NS on warden !
Animist (who can go on 2 setup max)

And you guys telling me BM dps is decent ? yeah ok !

That's my point of vieu, you can see each team who tried to come on hib they didnt stand for a week wonder why

Sat 3 Apr 2021 10:31 PM by Noashakra

It's a very narrow view of what each real has.
VW with good dps and disease proc, champ with S/C debuff in the assist.
Hib tanker is not weak at all. You need to take the BM in a 8 man as a whole to evalutate if it's weak or not.
I have tanks on all the realms btw (BM, VW, Warrior, Savage, Paladin)

Sat 3 Apr 2021 11:07 PM by skipari

Please provide proper test data and also against what, i.e. you show some dps table and then mix together the hp of different classes which can use different kind of armor which heavily influences the damage output.

At least 100, better 1k hits. Don't forget the offhand damage there btw, last is especially important in comparision against zerkers since those get a heavy malus on offhand in exchange to the always hit mechanic. You can also just calculate it out, the math for that stuff is known and public available.

Sun 4 Apr 2021 4:32 PM by ulf

only zerk need a up.

Sun 4 Apr 2021 5:25 PM by Nephamael

He said endo not bard, because you know your bard has to twist to give you endo, and it can take a while if the bard needs to CC or is rupted.

The hib endu problem exists for a while now and needs very urgent attending from a 8v8 balance perspective.

To elaborate the problem: Hib tanker can be run with 2 bards, which is the only reliable way for a hib 8man to provide endu5 during a fight.
A solo Bard in a hib tanker is the sole mezzer and demezzer for the group, while he has to stay within 2k range of the enemy backline to interrupt with amnesia, putting him at a impossible distance to enemy rupt, to ever be able to reliably twist in a 3.0 sec casttime INTERRUPTABLE! endusong.
This results in most solo Bards not even ever trying to twist in endu at all, as the punishment for trying for a 3.0 second song and getting interrupted is just 2 big.

The only way a solo Bard can twist in endu in a hib tanker is to disengage from the fight at the start, twist endu and then rejoin the fight. - This can only happen, if the Bard hits a blanket mezz on inc or leaves his group undefended vs enemy cc for 3.0 sec + loop on inc.
Naturally a solo Bard who tries the loop on inc option will find his tanktrain half dead on inc vs any decent castergroup and the fight lost.
Also the Bard being the main and for most tanker lineups only aoe interrupt of a hib tanker simply forbids him to stay outside rupt range to enemy ranged threats.

---------
While i believe after the merc buff BM rly should get a frontal style or a buff to his anytimer combo and maybe a growthrate buff on the sidestyle opener to at least 0.85 gr, the main problem making BM weak is the hib endu problem.

Sun 4 Apr 2021 11:17 PM by Patron

Every 8 man hibgroup which is not want 2 bards are just noobs with no skill.
2 bard, 2 druid is fixed.

So often needed to discuss with wannabees, im tired to throw my pearls in front of pigs.
Its like telling apes about relativitytheory.
But dumb people cannot know being dumb.

Long story short, bm dont need any push.

Sun 4 Apr 2021 11:59 PM by Carina

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlfd4voA7x0&ab_channel=MichaelYoung

Just made a small video so everything is clear to everyone.

Only hitting ppl i'm on bonus against with add dmg.

Now tell me BM dps please.

Mon 5 Apr 2021 1:14 AM by skipari

What is the point of the video, you hit most of the time chain classes? So yeh, all offtanks hit those like with a wet noodle. If you want to ignore whatever your target is then play a caster, there only the HP defines the ttk.

btw as zerker that would look even worse since alb chain is resistant against crush.

Mon 5 Apr 2021 2:21 AM by necrolove1

One thing you also have to consider is the realm and group aspects. Mercs and Zerks can't run with 4 healers in their groups.

Mon 5 Apr 2021 3:18 AM by boridi

necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Apr 2021 2:21 AM
One thing you also have to consider is the realm and group aspects. Mercs and Zerks can run with 4 healers in their groups.

I'm an 8 man newb... but who is running 2 shaman and 2 healers?

Mon 5 Apr 2021 3:31 AM by necrolove1

boridi wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Apr 2021 3:18 AM
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Apr 2021 2:21 AM
One thing you also have to consider is the realm and group aspects. Mercs and Zerks can run with 4 healers in their groups.
I'm an 8 man newb... but who is running 2 shaman and 2 healers?

Mistyped I meant to write can't** haha

Mon 5 Apr 2021 8:49 AM by Olk

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Apr 2021 5:25 PM
He said endo not bard, because you know your bard has to twist to give you endo, and it can take a while if the bard needs to CC or is rupted.

The hib endu problem exists for a while now and needs very urgent attending from a 8v8 balance perspective.

2 Bards needed

Would the problem be solved with Bards being able to play 2 songs at once?

Mon 5 Apr 2021 2:53 PM by Noashakra

Hitting a Ministrel who has an abla chant, mail and 2500+hp who also get heals. What's the problem with your video ?
It proves nothing.
I am hitting at 330 with a 2h 5.6 as a warrior, let's speak about bad DPS

The BM is excellent in a tank assist to keep the target in range for the VW assist. Yes it's not the big dps of the zerk, but it wasn't designed to be a zerk. They don't have 100% the same role in a group. Triple wield makes you immune to crits, while vendo voids all your defenses.

Two bards are great in some comp, not that good in others. People saying only noobs play with one bard are at least as stupid as they claim others are.

Mon 5 Apr 2021 6:17 PM by Nephamael

Would the problem be solved with Bards being able to play 2 songs at once?

yes, but i don't think it is intended to be possible - it would provide infight endu5 + infight speed5 from one character.

There's multiple options here:

1) Bard gets uninterruptable songs

2) Bard endu casttime gets reduced to 2.0 sec

3) Endurance consume of hib characters gets reduced by 5 endu on every style

4) Warden gets endu reduction buff (like friar got it to buff alb tanker)

making bard endu a instant chant or double song like you said would not be a fix, but a buff, so i am opposed to it.

Mon 5 Apr 2021 6:24 PM by Nephamael

Every 8 man hibgroup which is not want 2 bards are just noobs with no skill.
2 bard, 2 druid is fixed.

So often needed to discuss with wannabees, im tired to throw my pearls in front of pigs.
Its like telling apes about relativitytheory.
But dumb people cannot know being dumb.

Long story short, bm dont need any push.

Actually the current 8v8 meta in hib is 1 bard nurt druid warden or 2 bards nurt druid warden, no group plays 2 druids anymore.

Now you are not completely wrong - i personally think the only way to currently make hib tanker work is 2 Bards.

However some groups, among them well respected gvg groups have a different opinion and keep playing 1 Bard.

Anyway: - Alb needs just 1 friar or 1 pally to have sufficient endu for their tanks and mid just needs 1 shaman - while hib needs 2 group slots, this is obviously wrong and unfair and needs fixing.

A bigger problem is that a peeltank in a hib castergroup that doesn't need or want a 2nd Bard for obvious reasons will run into dramatic endurance problems in any longer fight, which their counterparts, the peeltanks and skald/minst in a mid or alb castergroup don't have, simply because a Albgroup just needs, like i said above:

1 friar OR 1 pally to have sufficient endu

and a mid group just needs

1 shaman

whereas a hib group that wants reliable endu needs

2! Bards.

So just fix it, it is broken, it needs fixing.

Imo give warden endu reduction group buff and be done with it.

Mon 5 Apr 2021 7:52 PM by easytoremember

Your mistake is the belief that each realm needs what the other realm(s) have

Mon 5 Apr 2021 11:51 PM by omicidi

Some of you are straight a-holes, dude comes on with a potential gripe and instantly gets attacked for not knowing game mechanics.

Sure, let’s be a holes to the remainder of the population.

In my opinion:

There are layers of game mechanics that you need to swim through. I believe that you just scratched the surface by comparing the three light tanks. What makes the merc strong, and over the top, isn’t his abilities alone, but the abilities that the other members of the team being:

Red haste and dps from theurg. Offensive and defensive heal procs. Endo damp. Bolt range + support from casters.

So, sure, mercs should lose backsnare. But it’s really the pet spam, bolt range interupts, and all the itty bitty buffs like damage add and heal proc that is what makes them over the top.

Tue 6 Apr 2021 2:07 PM by Nephamael

Your mistake is the belief that each realm needs what the other realm(s) have

You are wrong, i am strongly against mirroring - i believe uniqueness is a beautiful part of daoc (which makes it a lot harder to balance).

The problem here is not uniqueness, but extreme imbalance.

Besides, the Warden already has endu reduction selfbuff by default, changing it to a group instead of a selfbuff like for friar would be balancing and not mirroring, as neither of the 2 classes had endu reduction for group in classic daoc.

Thu 8 Apr 2021 12:43 PM by Succi

Mercs are obviously the best right now but light tanks always needed RR to do damage, it isn't a server-specific issue

Mon 12 Apr 2021 7:09 AM by Sepplord

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Apr 2021 6:24 PM
Anyway: - Alb needs just 1 friar or 1 pally to have sufficient endu for their tanks and mid just needs 1 shaman - while hib needs 2 group slots, this is obviously wrong and unfair and needs fixing.

A bigger problem is that a peeltank in a hib castergroup that doesn't need or want a 2nd Bard for obvious reasons will run into dramatic endurance problems in any longer fight, which their counterparts, the peeltanks and skald/minst in a mid or alb castergroup don't have, simply because a Albgroup just needs, like i said above:

1 friar OR 1 pally to have sufficient endu

and a mid group just needs

1 shaman

whereas a hib group that wants reliable endu needs

2! Bards.

Did you write that with a straight face or are you intentionally trolling your own point with such bullshit?
Hibernia doesn't need 2slots for endu. They need one, just like all other realms. The difference is in other abilities that bard brings, that makes him wanted in different positions.
A 7man hibgroup only missing endurance can get that endurance with one slots, just like any other realm can.

Hib doesn't need two slots for endu, Hib needs two slots for endu and speed, just like any other realm

especially Hib complaining about having too many slots "fixed" with required classes is highly ridiculous

Mon 12 Apr 2021 7:21 AM by Ceen

There is no guarenty that you have red endu 24/7 in front and back if you dont run 2 bards 2 shamans or 2 pallies.
I tell you a secret - deal with it =)
2k endu range is more than enough for a one bard group to have endu for the majority of the time.
I don't think any meta grp would invite a second bard for the endu song, he would get that slot for the utility and endu is a minor part of it.