Swap spell lines for SM's PBAoE-mez and life transfer

Started 27 Mar 2021
by joshisanonymous
in Suggestions
I'm bringing this up for discussion, mainly, so any imbalances this would cause are welcome additions to the thread.

The SM's PBAoE mez and life transfer are both oddly placed in terms of which spells lines they're in. The PBAoE mez is redundant in the dark line because there's already an AoE mez there. The only advantage to the PBAoE one is that it's a faster cast, which helps when you don't have a QC available and someone is hitting you as you can sometimes still mez if your pet intercepts more easily than you would with the longer cast time AoE mez. This is a pretty minor advantage, though. Likewise, the life transfer spells make little sense in the supp line since they cost you some health. There is no one to replenish this health on your own from the spells in the supp line, and if you have a healer/shaman replenishing whatever health you've lost, then you probably didn't need to use life transfer anyway.

These two spells would fit better practically and thematically in the opposite lines, so that the PBAoE mez is in the supp line and the life transfer is in the dark line. The supp line already has a very nice mez, but it's single target, so there would still be a number of situations where the PBAoE mez would be good to have for supp SMs. Supp is also the line people think of for PBAoE spells in general, so having the PBAoE mez there just fits. The dark line has the lifetap spells, which give the SM a way to replenish health if they're healing people with life transfer. This would be a lot like the necro's power battery role only for health. This whole transferring around health just works thematically, as well.

Currently, it might be argued that you can subspec to still have what I just described to some degree. This is true, but the reality is that the lower level versions of these spells would be all you'd get from any reasonable subspecs, and then they're just too weak to be useful. If you spec dark, you're probably going 47 dark, which means you can max out at 26 supp, giving you the green life transfer. This is alright but only in very niche situations, and because it's a lower level spell, (correct me if I'm wrong but) the cost to your health is also very low, meaning you don't really have to replenish your health if you're using the green life transfer anyway, so the synergy is unnecessary. On the other hand, if you spec supp, you're probably going no lower than 49, which leaves you with the level 18 PBAoE mez, max. This mez lasts 17s and will always be reduced by spell falloff unless an enemy is literally right on top of you. The results is a very, very, very short duration mez, that is highly likely to be resisted anyway. It's not actually something that's useable. The situation is almost identical for the AoE mez with this spec, so you're really left with just the single target mez. So it doesn't appear that subspeccing is really a way to get these sort of synergies going.

Like I said, I'm cognizant that there may be some serious balance issues to such a change, but I think it's worth bringing up and discussing.
Sat 27 Mar 2021 9:16 PM by gotwqqd
joshisanonymous wrote:
Sat 27 Mar 2021 6:43 PM
I'm bringing this up for discussion, mainly, so any imbalances this would cause are welcome additions to the thread.

The SM's PBAoE mez and life transfer are both oddly placed in terms of which spells lines they're in. The PBAoE mez is redundant in the dark line because there's already an AoE mez there. The only advantage to the PBAoE one is that it's a faster cast, which helps when you don't have a QC available and someone is hitting you as you can sometimes still mez if your pet intercepts more easily than you would with the longer cast time AoE mez. This is a pretty minor advantage, though. Likewise, the life transfer spells make little sense in the supp line since they cost you some health. There is no one to replenish this health on your own from the spells in the supp line, and if you have a healer/shaman replenishing whatever health you've lost, then you probably didn't need to use life transfer anyway.

These two spells would fit better practically and thematically in the opposite lines, so that the PBAoE mez is in the supp line and the life transfer is in the dark line. The supp line already has a very nice mez, but it's single target, so there would still be a number of situations where the PBAoE mez would be good to have for supp SMs. Supp is also the line people think of for PBAoE spells in general, so having the PBAoE mez there just fits. The dark line has the lifetap spells, which give the SM a way to replenish health if they're healing people with life transfer. This would be a lot like the necro's power battery role only for health. This whole transferring around health just works thematically, as well.

Currently, it might be argued that you can subspec to still have what I just described to some degree. This is true, but the reality is that the lower level versions of these spells would be all you'd get from any reasonable subspecs, and then they're just too weak to be useful. If you spec dark, you're probably going 47 dark, which means you can max out at 26 supp, giving you the green life transfer. This is alright but only in very niche situations, and because it's a lower level spell, (correct me if I'm wrong but) the cost to your health is also very low, meaning you don't really have to replenish your health if you're using the green life transfer anyway, so the synergy is unnecessary. On the other hand, if you spec supp, you're probably going no lower than 49, which leaves you with the level 18 PBAoE mez, max. This mez lasts 17s and will always be reduced by spell falloff unless an enemy is literally right on top of you. The results is a very, very, very short duration mez, that is highly likely to be resisted anyway. It's not actually something that's useable. The situation is almost identical for the AoE mez with this spec, so you're really left with just the single target mez. So it doesn't appear that subspeccing is really a way to get these sort of synergies going.

Like I said, I'm cognizant that there may be some serious balance issues to such a change, but I think it's worth bringing up and discussing.
I’d be all for it, sounds like a good change.
But maybe the whole point is to keep the class utility down.
Mon 29 Mar 2021 2:43 PM by Nephamael
I also don't have any objections, but i think the pbaoe mezz needs a buff in duration, it is very hard to land on anything but melees, so a long duration is easily justified.

I think it should have exactly the same duration scaling as a healer/bard/sorc aoe mezz (remember its PBAOE!!!)
Mon 29 Mar 2021 3:01 PM by Enyore
A small change - but makes good sense for both spec lines.

Life transfer is more viable in the line where you have the life tap, same way it is for the cabalist and supp spec would be able to utilize the pbae mezz better.

Well though through suggestion - should be tried out.
Mon 29 Mar 2021 5:15 PM by vxr
+1 for lifetransfer suggestion. Whats the point of life transfer without life tap. Would be a nice boon for smallman SMs.
-1 for PBAoEMezz sugestion... I mean what you say makes sense, but I love the PBAoE mezz and I don't really find having a PBAoE mezz useful for sup SM, except for the fact that sup has no AE mezz.

Advantages of PBAoE Mezz
- Doesn't need a target or LoS to start casting. So lets say someone is behind a wall you can start casting it before they are in LOS. Can mezz sneaks w/o seeing them
- Can be casted without facing. You are kitting a melee. You stop cast PBAoEMezz continue running in same direction.
- Faster cast speed then the AoE. as you said, its easier to pull off during intercept.
- The animation looks better then the AoE mezz. The single target mezz is cool too. But the AoE one.. UGLY

Bombzz = Bomb Mezz = PBAoEMezz
#DontNerfBombzzAgain

Whilst we are talking about SMs, lets revert the intercept nerf. Also lets throw SM a buff for being unjustly nerfed. Allow pet to sprint in combat. Thanks <3

Also, rezz on 23 summoning. Useless line. Bring it to darkness or suppression although thematically summoning makes sense. Just delete summoning line.


A more general change:
Remove the ability for quickcast and MoC to be interrupted by higher con mobs, or at least charmed mobs. Thanks
Tue 30 Mar 2021 5:05 AM by Enyore
Life transfer possibility to the pet will make the dark SM incredibly strong already, reverting pet nerf on top of it is not a good idea.

Getting rid of the pet is hard enough already, adding possibility to heal it with LT spec should be more than enough.
Tue 30 Mar 2021 3:31 PM by joshisanonymous
Enyore wrote:
Tue 30 Mar 2021 5:05 AM
Life transfer possibility to the pet will make the dark SM incredibly strong already, reverting pet nerf on top of it is not a good idea.

Getting rid of the pet is hard enough already, adding possibility to heal it with LT spec should be more than enough.

I agree that I don't see a reason why the pet intercept rate needs to be increased again.

A fully specced life transfer is a much better heal than the baseline pet heal in summoning, too. I don't think that would change much as you're usually better off damaging an opponent if you're in a position to cast freely and your pet is being killed. If it's an issue, though, maybe the life transfer can be limited to ally players so that it won't work on your own pet.
Tue 30 Mar 2021 4:30 PM by vxr
joshisanonymous wrote:
Tue 30 Mar 2021 3:31 PM
I agree that I don't see a reason why the pet intercept rate needs to be increased again.

The intercept rate change is not that big of a deal, its that the pet takes 3X more damage than before the nerf is the what really hurts. The dev that imposed this injustice will not be going to Valhalla I can assure you that!

I don't believe you experienced the glory of pre-nerf SM.
Tue 30 Mar 2021 4:36 PM by vxr
Enyore wrote:
Tue 30 Mar 2021 5:05 AM
Life transfer possibility to the pet will make the dark SM incredibly strong already, reverting pet nerf on top of it is not a good idea.

Getting rid of the pet is hard enough already, adding possibility to heal it with LT spec should be more than enough.


I agree 100% that the combination of life transfer being moved to darkness and reverting pet nerf would be a wee bit too much.. I'd take the nerf being reverting if I had the option.
Tue 30 Mar 2021 5:51 PM by Nephamael
Whilst we are talking about SMs, lets revert the intercept nerf. Also lets throw SM a buff for being unjustly nerfed. Allow pet to sprint in combat.

SM pets intercept rate is still ridiculous.

However looking at the overall performance of the class, i think it is fair as it is and just needs to stay that way. Also SM pet HP are still in a very very healthy state.


But i agree on the slow movement speed of SM pets needing a buff.

I don't know if it's codeable easily, but it should be able to keep up with a sprinting enemy for a bit and not be outrun within 2 seconds, while not being as fast as a hunterpet (because it has a stunproc to keep enemies close, like a cabba pet)
Tue 30 Mar 2021 6:14 PM by easytoremember
Is there variance in the base heal or something? The red heal is higher value than the best life transfer
Tue 30 Mar 2021 7:29 PM by ExcretusMaximus
easytoremember wrote:
Tue 30 Mar 2021 6:14 PM
Is there variance in the base heal or something? The red heal is higher value than the best life transfer

Life transfer costs almost nothing, and heals for much higher value than it delves for. On top of that, unless you're Summoning spec (LOL) the pet heal has massive variance of over 100 points, and costs more than the power cost delves.
Wed 31 Mar 2021 7:49 AM by Sepplord
LifeTransfer can target any friendly too, while the heal is only for the pet
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