Bring back TOA without the Artiifacts/MLs

In order to keep things interesting, I believe we need more PvE content in game and more non RoG options for templates. I think it would be great to bring back TOA and just not implement the artifacts and either overhaul or not implement the MLs as well. Maybe make the artifact skins unlockable through the encounters instead of buyable etc. There were a lot of amazing encounters and great non-artifact equipment that could a great addition to the server. The only reasons people did not like TOA was because of the imbalance artifacts and MLs brought to RVR as well as the grind for scrolls/arti xp that came with it. If you take those things out, you add many hours of new content. More PvE players leads to more RvR players and a healthy population.

Sat 27 Mar 2021 10:01 PM by Ceen

Agreed best encounters ever.

Sun 28 Mar 2021 2:31 PM by DJ2000

New PvE encounters are currently in the works. Which can be way better tuned, balanced and maintained then the plethora of ToA encounters ever could be.
There is also the aspect of adding basically 90% useless maps/npcs, that would just take up Server resources.
If you break ToA Features down, then it always leads to the fact that ToA itself is unnecessary, as evrry aspect can be introduced in other ways more easily and efficiantly.

Sun 28 Mar 2021 2:40 PM by Smricha1

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 2:31 PM
New PvE encounters are currently in the works. Which can be way better tuned, balanced and maintained then the plethora of ToA encounters ever could be.
There is also the aspect of adding basically 90% useless maps/npcs, that would just take up Server resources.
If you break ToA Features down, then it always leads to the fact that ToA itself is unnecessary, as evrry aspect can be introduced in other ways more easily and efficiantly.

Agreed. TOA was a mistake. Why would you want to bring back those bad memories?

Sun 28 Mar 2021 4:41 PM by Ceen

Smricha1 wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 2:40 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 2:31 PM
New PvE encounters are currently in the works. Which can be way better tuned, balanced and maintained then the plethora of ToA encounters ever could be.
There is also the aspect of adding basically 90% useless maps/npcs, that would just take up Server resources.
If you break ToA Features down, then it always leads to the fact that ToA itself is unnecessary, as evrry aspect can be introduced in other ways more easily and efficiantly.

Agreed. TOA was a mistake. Why would you want to bring back those bad memories?

Since many people have good memories? I liked ToA encounters and PvE.

Sun 28 Mar 2021 5:38 PM by Takii

I think a lot of people have very good memories from ToA if you remove the aspects that had a negative impact on the rest of the game as a whole (i.e. artifact grinds, MLs being required to compete). To this day it remains some of the best PvE content I've played in an MMO, in large part because there was a huge amount of discovery to be done by players since Mythic was very secretive about the whole thing. That secrecy obviously came at a cost, since the lack of a large beta for it meant a ton of stuff didn't get the amount of testing it required. Anyone who ran ML2 at launch can attest to how broken it was until the first couple patches.

I still remember when people finally figured out that the mysterious glowy/wavy cylindrical shape that randomly showed up for a few hours in a random spot across ToA was actually a portal to a completely new, secret Master Level. It was a realm-wide mad rush to find the entrances and beat the thing.

Sun 28 Mar 2021 7:16 PM by Throck

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 2:31 PM
New PvE encounters are currently in the works. Which can be way better tuned, balanced and maintained then the plethora of ToA encounters ever could be.
There is also the aspect of adding basically 90% useless maps/npcs, that would just take up Server resources.
If you break ToA Features down, then it always leads to the fact that ToA itself is unnecessary, as evrry aspect can be introduced in other ways more easily and efficiantly.

I could not disagree with this more. If ToA is unnecessary then so is SI and most of the main continents that never see use. I respect whatever direction the devs decide to go in with the server, but I think viewing a space with some of the most interesting and fun encounters as unnecessary is a mistake. My best memories of PvE are from ToA and its encounters. Are they needed for DAoC to function? Of course not. Are they desired by people I know for a fact they are.

While I appreciate new PvE encounters, they scale of them is always very small. If we are taking ToA off the table, I and many other people I have talked to, would love to see more radiable content that takes more than 30 minutes to complete and has an impact on how you gear yourself etc.

Sun 28 Mar 2021 8:23 PM by Takii

The thing you do have to keep in mind is that the data needed to populate zones on DAoC freeshards isn't actually in the client and needs to be recreated by developers to the best of their ability, so just because ToA zones exist on this server doesn't mean any of the content in the zones does (and possibly some of the server-side mechanics). Populating ToA would be a huge undertaking unless there is already a publicly available source from another freeshard that actually did this in the past.

Sun 28 Mar 2021 9:06 PM by Throck

Takii wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 8:23 PM
The thing you do have to keep in mind is that the data needed to populate zones on DAoC freeshards isn't actually in the client and needs to be recreated by developers to the best of their ability, so just because ToA zones exist on this server doesn't mean any of the content in the zones does (and possibly some of the server-side mechanics). Populating ToA would be a huge undertaking unless there is already a publicly available source from another freeshard that actually did this in the past.

This is available already on other freehsards through DOL. I have done all the MLs and many artifact encounters etc on them and they all worked perfectly.

Sun 28 Mar 2021 9:10 PM by Ceen

Throck wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 9:06 PM
Takii wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 8:23 PM
The thing you do have to keep in mind is that the data needed to populate zones on DAoC freeshards isn't actually in the client and needs to be recreated by developers to the best of their ability, so just because ToA zones exist on this server doesn't mean any of the content in the zones does (and possibly some of the server-side mechanics). Populating ToA would be a huge undertaking unless there is already a publicly available source from another freeshard that actually did this in the past.

This is available already on other freehsards through DOL. I have done all the MLs and many artifact encounters etc on them and they all worked perfectly.

The models probably the scripting not really. 1 ML a month would be awesome; )

Sun 28 Mar 2021 10:48 PM by DJ2000

Throck wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 7:16 PM
... If ToA is unnecessary then so is SI and most of the main continents that never see use. ...

Content wise, that is correct. But unlike SI, ToA introduced no new classes. Only Gear, Abilities/Mechanics and encounters.
Since the introduction of the PvP Event (xp events in general), the Main and SI zones are mostly underutilized. That used to be different.
Introducing this "emptiness" is justified how? Because other dead Zones in the Game make new dead zones fine?

Throck wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 7:16 PM
My best memories of PvE are from ToA and its encounters. Are they needed for DAoC to function? Of course not. Are they desired by people I know for a fact they are.

If the Devs implement the Encounters into some sort of DS/HoH-Variant, would that not suffice? Do you need the entire barren Zone for these Encounters to exist?
You said that you can't disagree more with what i said. So tell me, what bothers you about what i said.
The fact that the encounters can be implemented in other ways?
That they could better balance the Encounters?
That the entire ToA expansion would take up Server resources?
etc.

Throck wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 7:16 PM
If we are taking ToA off the table, I and many other people I have talked to, would love to see more radiable content that takes more than 30 minutes to complete and has an impact on how you gear yourself etc.

Can you elaborate on this a bit?
What exactly are you looking for?
Epic Dung. Raids do take longer than 30 mins for example.
What kind of "impact" on the Gear are you looking for? Gear to be able to "do" the Raid? Or Gear acuired by the Raid for other PvE Encounters? or Gear for RvR (aka Artifacts)?

Mon 29 Mar 2021 12:25 AM by Takii

Throck wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 9:06 PM
Takii wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 8:23 PM
The thing you do have to keep in mind is that the data needed to populate zones on DAoC freeshards isn't actually in the client and needs to be recreated by developers to the best of their ability, so just because ToA zones exist on this server doesn't mean any of the content in the zones does (and possibly some of the server-side mechanics). Populating ToA would be a huge undertaking unless there is already a publicly available source from another freeshard that actually did this in the past.

This is available already on other freehsards through DOL. I have done all the MLs and many artifact encounters etc on them and they all worked perfectly.

That does not necessarily mean that is available widely to all DOL servers if that server had done their own implementation and didn't share it.

Mon 29 Mar 2021 8:38 AM by Ceen

Takii wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Mar 2021 12:25 AM
Throck wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 9:06 PM
Takii wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Mar 2021 8:23 PM
The thing you do have to keep in mind is that the data needed to populate zones on DAoC freeshards isn't actually in the client and needs to be recreated by developers to the best of their ability, so just because ToA zones exist on this server doesn't mean any of the content in the zones does (and possibly some of the server-side mechanics). Populating ToA would be a huge undertaking unless there is already a publicly available source from another freeshard that actually did this in the past.

This is available already on other freehsards through DOL. I have done all the MLs and many artifact encounters etc on them and they all worked perfectly.

That does not necessarily mean that is available widely to all DOL servers if that server had done their own implementation and didn't share it.

Like Uthgard, Phoenix, Genesis and all others? =)

Mon 29 Mar 2021 9:24 AM by Astaa

I quite liked TOA as an experience in itself (not the arti grinding) but it had a too larger effect on PVP, not just in straight up game changing mechanics but widening the gap between the casual and the obsessed.

It would be nice to have it as an alternative levelling experience, or feather farming, maybe have a 2 group capped BG ML9 and a BG ML10. Maybe allow some drops but with their TOA stats stripped and others boosted to compensate?

I also think one or two abilities should be added in as RAs, perhaps one per class, for example give hero cowering bellow or climbing spikes (not an ML obvs...but an ability that ought to be in the game) for 10 RA points or something.

The thing is, anything is work for the devs and their limited time so anything they do ought to benefit as many people as possible. Gear wise and as far as accessibility is concerned we are on a pretty level playing field at the moment and perhaps outstanding balance issues are more important.

Mon 29 Mar 2021 3:15 PM by Enyore

Though i like the thought of some more content on the server it seems like alot of work to impliment 11 full zones of mobs + how many dungeons just for adding some more non-rogs to the game.

This could be done much smarter (easier) with other content though I it would be kind of cool with ToA, but really would be too much work.

Fri 2 Apr 2021 12:49 PM by Solicfear

I've been listening to some points made here and I agree partly with all of them.

I believe now is the time we need some new Battlegroup encounter as Sidi/Dragon/Legion have got a little stale. If it's they do open ToA then I don't see a huge issue with a new zone been added because it actually makes people explore more of DAoC. Some players may of never experienced ToA before as they left before ToA came out but it's a zone that is very fun to explore. I'm not suggesting we go back to doing Artiefact raiding, ML's etc but it would be great to have some sort of encounter there, i mean they don't have to open up the whole of ToA, maybe look at the dungeons and possibly modify that to make it raidable.

It's great they are doing stuff for 8mans but not everyone can setup and have time to do an 8man in DS/Celestius, some just want to join a big massive raid and run for a 1-2 hours and then leave. Also it looks healthy for the game to see 100+ come to these raids and I'm still getting to this day with Sidi/Legion/Dragon.

It's something to think about but if there is a possibility to bring out something new for Battlegroup raids, that would give a bit more life to those that like zerging. Even if it's a add on to Dartmoor where we have to do some sort of Dragon Campaign and kill 4 mini dragons, that was quite fun back in the day. Just don't do anything like Broadsword did with Otherworldly campaign or Dragon curse campaign as that was just carnage and the whole logic to those raids was completely chaotic and a mess.

Fri 2 Apr 2021 1:04 PM by

gruenesschaf

The problem with open world bg content is that there is no fixed amount of players. All encounter in any mmo with such a setting are comparatively lackluster, either you have fixed stats / abilities (as we currently do) or you have mob scaling.
Fixed stats / abilities makes it too difficult / long for small groups and just a trivial afk zerg sticking for larger groups.
Scaling is kinda weird and only really works up to a certain point.

Also implementing the toa encounter as they were would result in rather boring encounter with maybe some of the group encounter, 4.2 and most of 5 being the exceptions. Further, I don't think many people would like to relive the trauma caused by the ML 3 underwater stickfest.

Fri 2 Apr 2021 2:31 PM by Throck

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Apr 2021 1:04 PM
The problem with open world bg content is that there is no fixed amount of players. All encounter in any mmo with such a setting are comparatively lackluster, either you have fixed stats / abilities (as we currently do) or you have mob scaling.
Fixed stats / abilities makes it too difficult / long for small groups and just a trivial afk zerg sticking for larger groups.
Scaling is kinda weird and only really works up to a certain point.

Also implementing the toa encounter as they were would result in rather boring encounter with maybe some of the group encounter, 4.2 and most of 5 being the exceptions. Further, I don't think many people would like to relive the trauma caused by the ML 3 underwater stickfest.

I do understand a lot of the points you make, however, I do not think this has to be an all or nothing thing. For example, you could start by implementing one of the indoor instances, whichever you guys determine is easiest, and adjust it in some aspects. This way you could just make it a teleport to location and you have complete control over the entire zone. Make certain changes to the instance a vote, remove the trivial and tedious stuff, etc.

Fri 2 Apr 2021 2:42 PM by Solicfear

Throck wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Apr 2021 2:31 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Apr 2021 1:04 PM
The problem with open world bg content is that there is no fixed amount of players. All encounter in any mmo with such a setting are comparatively lackluster, either you have fixed stats / abilities (as we currently do) or you have mob scaling.
Fixed stats / abilities makes it too difficult / long for small groups and just a trivial afk zerg sticking for larger groups.
Scaling is kinda weird and only really works up to a certain point.

Also implementing the toa encounter as they were would result in rather boring encounter with maybe some of the group encounter, 4.2 and most of 5 being the exceptions. Further, I don't think many people would like to relive the trauma caused by the ML 3 underwater stickfest.

I do understand a lot of the points you make, however, I do not think this has to be an all or nothing thing. For example, you could start by implementing one of the indoor instances, whichever you guys determine is easiest, and adjust it in some aspects. This way you could just make it a teleport to location and you have complete control over the entire zone. Make certain changes to the instance a vote, remove the trivial and tedious stuff, etc.

Yep, this is on the same lines as I was suggesting above.

You don't have to implement the whole of ToA just the dungeons like ML 2 / ML 7 / ML 9 and possibly ML 10 and have a port in like Sidi with the Epic Dungeon. We just need something new for the pve side for battlegroups. I understand you see the afk side to battlegroups but not everyone does this and they do enjoy it. I think limiting new pve content to 8mans only is going to create a elite set of classes and not all classes can participate in those small pve instances.

We need to be diverse in how we approach pve content and try and make it available for everyone because there are people like us that do enjoy DAoC PvE and what it offers. It also gives us something different to do. Players want different content and to enjoy the DAoC experience and the more you offer the more enjoyable this game becomes.

The PvP event has been a success but let's look at the raiding also. I mean we could have a seasonal event with ToA if you prefer and just open it for a weekend event rather than opening it all the time where players can unlock the skins and glowing items. There is no need for stat increases or anything unless you can implement it into existing templates, where players don't need to re-template everything all over again.

Fri 2 Apr 2021 3:25 PM by Snofru

toa world ... yes
some encounters ... yes
some normal items ... yes
artifacts ... NO!
mana pool and item bonuses ... NO!
heretic ... YES^^
masterlevels and there abilities ... NO!

Fri 2 Apr 2021 3:38 PM by Horic

ToA would be fantastic. Content is amazing. Artifacts are fun! ML raids fun!

No MLs: Use Encounters/ Raids for feathers/items and high rogs.
No % increases. Basically do not change the current templating parameters.

ToA should not be the expansion that changes everything. People shouldnt have to retemplate just to compete. How about PvE comtent that might make templating under our current convention easier.

Tue 6 Apr 2021 10:30 AM by borodino1812

I loathed ToA, mostly because it forced me to do more PvE, which was not what I wanted to do. However, if it was to be brought back, I hope it would not be something you *HAD* to do, but rather something you wanted to do.

Making the encounters give feathers and rogs would probably be a good idea. Keeping the artifacts and MLs out of the game should be a given.

Wed 7 Apr 2021 2:34 AM by rogueyak

I think having TOA encounters without any of the master levels, artifacts, or items with TOA bonuses is the way to go. I love the idea of unlockable skins via encounters. I think adding master levels and toa items at all will not be good for the server. Everyones templates will need to be redone. The simplicity of a usable template, and the longevity of it is a huge draw for me to keep playing on phoenix. I hated the feeling of going back to live after a break and feeling like all of my characters gear was out of date. PLEASE don't do that to us here!

Side note: Labyrinth of the Minotaur BP/feather skins would be AWESOME and much loved. Thanks for all your hard work devs.

Thu 8 Apr 2021 10:15 AM by Succi

I want to farm artifact scrolls

is there something wrong with me?

Thu 8 Apr 2021 10:28 PM by Takii

Succi wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Apr 2021 10:15 AM
I want to farm artifact scrolls

is there something wrong with me?

Objectively, yes.

Tue 13 Apr 2021 3:25 PM by jparker1010321

I would love to see TOA added to Phoenix. Some of us enjoy the PVE world and a break from the kill or be killed metality. TOA was the best expansion ever in my opinion. It went a little too far with the champ level sub-spells and Atlantean glass making the artifact and ML encounters useless. I see alot of people complaining about the ML raids and how long it took, and how terrible it was. It's nothing for how long you will be playing your character in rvr. I'm all for TOA without the easy mode to get everything. Just my 2 cents.
Ezez

Wed 14 Apr 2021 2:30 PM by Talo

Snofru wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Apr 2021 3:25 PM
heretic ... YES^^

heretic is catacomb content, not toa

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Catacombs

Wed 14 Apr 2021 4:56 PM by watbrif

I've said this before, the server could benefit from some more bg pve encounters. The server "forces" player to do Galla etc. already, so the best thing would be to add raids as an alternative to SI dungeons. Players wouldn't have to do more stuff, but could do different stuff. Because tbh, aren't we all sick of SI dungeons at some point ....

Wed 21 Jul 2021 4:08 PM by Serenish

I would like to push this thread with link to mine. Same topic 😆

https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/28154-some-pve-content-

Wed 21 Jul 2021 10:21 PM by Romanas

I really wish they would do this. Personally, I wouldn't even mind Cata or Labyrinth content, but many might disagree with me there.
IMO there simply has to be more content added to maintain server health sooner or later. DAoC only maintained a population by releasing expansions and adding more stuff. Private servers have the added benefit of seeing what stuff worked, what didn't, and tuning it to be the best it can be. Can easily take bits and pieces from any of these and adapt them to fit perfectly within the setting.

Thu 22 Jul 2021 8:01 AM by evert

Do the opposite, artifacts/MLs without the pve.

Thu 22 Jul 2021 11:58 AM by inoeth

why woulld anyone do pve stuff without any benefit?
we already have enough feather pve content.

Thu 22 Jul 2021 3:38 PM by Romanas

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Jul 2021 11:58 AM
why woulld anyone do pve stuff without any benefit?
we already have enough feather pve content.

Oh, yeah.. PLENTY of feather pve content...
Want to run DS? Too bad. You don't have a temped RR4 class from the small meta pool allowed to run DS.
Want to run TG? Wait a week or two and you'll get one run maybe.
Raum loop? Hulks? Not quite as strict as DS meta but there's still a "correct" group to do them.
What else is there...? Oh ooh Trollheim! If you can even find a group to do it, enjoy your 1000 feathers and garbage drops after 60-90 minutes of effort! Never ran Iarn but I'd imagine it's in the same sad state.

Thu 22 Jul 2021 7:23 PM by inoeth

Romanas wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Jul 2021 3:38 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Jul 2021 11:58 AM
why woulld anyone do pve stuff without any benefit?
we already have enough feather pve content.
Oh, yeah.. PLENTY of feather pve content...
Want to run DS? Too bad. You don't have a temped RR4 class from the small meta pool allowed to run DS.
Want to run TG? Wait a week or two and you'll get one run maybe.
Raum loop? Hulks? Not quite as strict as DS meta but there's still a "correct" group to do them.
What else is there...? Oh ooh Trollheim! If you can even find a group to do it, enjoy your 1000 feathers and garbage drops after 60-90 minutes of effort! Never ran Iarn but I'd imagine it's in the same sad state.

so whats the point? do you think you get toa content for free?

Sat 24 Jul 2021 7:58 PM by watbrif

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Jul 2021 7:23 PM
Romanas wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Jul 2021 3:38 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Jul 2021 11:58 AM
why woulld anyone do pve stuff without any benefit?
we already have enough feather pve content.
Oh, yeah.. PLENTY of feather pve content...
Want to run DS? Too bad. You don't have a temped RR4 class from the small meta pool allowed to run DS.
Want to run TG? Wait a week or two and you'll get one run maybe.
Raum loop? Hulks? Not quite as strict as DS meta but there's still a "correct" group to do them.
What else is there...? Oh ooh Trollheim! If you can even find a group to do it, enjoy your 1000 feathers and garbage drops after 60-90 minutes of effort! Never ran Iarn but I'd imagine it's in the same sad state.

so whats the point? do you think you get toa content for free?

Providing more opportunities to get feathers isn't quite the same as handing out stuff for free. DS etc. just isn't a very good idea imho - was the point of the feather system not to do away with the slog of hunting the right drops for templates, so that people actually get into rvr faster ? Why was it necessary then to make DS a "challenge"? The result is that the best opportunity for making feathers is reserved for people with the right chars and gear, instead of giving content to the entire server population (let alone making it easier for people to temp their chars). I just also enjoy pve, but not running DS under semi professional conditions, i.e. there is basically no pve content apart from some raids and farming.