Please help the Warden - Phoenix Freeshard

What is the Phoenix team's design goal for the Warden? Right now they're like Aug Healers that traded the all-powerful Pacification line for Blades, Blunt, and Parry, and traded spec buffs and group celerity for PBT and group damage add (except, sorry, they're chants, so get your MCL3 and AutoHotKey script ready). This is actually more accurate than you'd think at first glance, considering (if https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Damage_Table is accurate), Wardens with their spec weapons are actually on the same damage table as the Healer (factor 18)!

Ultimately they end up about as engaging to play as an Aug Healer, except the Healer traded its soul for a side snare. The common answer for people with questions about rolling a Warden is "Don't." They're not wrong.

Tue 23 Mar 2021 8:24 PM by ExcretusMaximus

boho wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Mar 2021 8:13 PM
Right now they're like Aug Healers that traded the all-powerful Pacification line for Blades, Blunt, and Parry, and traded spec buffs and group celerity for PBT and group damage add (except, sorry, they're chants, so get your MCL3 and AutoHotKey script ready).

Healers don't have spec buffs and never have, unless you count the Aug-only Str/Con, which no one uses unless forced to.

As for the "all-powerful Pacification line" they traded away, the only thing in that line an Aug has is a casted stun which half your realm already has, a casted mez which would be nice to have, and Amnesia which Hibernia admittedly needs a second class with.

Wardens on Phoenix are what they always were before ToA and EA took over, a high throughput healer with amazing group defensive utility. If you don't want to play a healer, don't roll a support class.

Tue 23 Mar 2021 8:56 PM by boho

What are you on about? Warden inherently has no special healing throughput compared to Druid, and Bard is only missing the base Group Heal. When you get into spec Healing, the gap widens, with Druid blowing everyone else away, Bard getting a Regen Chant and access to group heal again, and Warden getting a Nearsight Cure (which the Druid already has) and a couple dumpy self-only buffs (hp regen, endurance cost reduction) that might be relevant if they could only melee worth a damn.

There's also the more fundamental issue that the Warden is granted two entire skill lines that are never worth investing in beyond a backup mediocre snare at 10 points. A third of the class's design budget is outright worthless because they're on the pure healer damage table, even more when you count all the strange self-only buffs that are supposed to make you and only you a better melee fighter, but due to the criticality of damage tables in a heavy absorption setting, simply don't. Phoenix is a wildly different combat environment than 1.69, so trying to raise the specter of ToA and EA to scare off any changes in the right direction smacks of cluelessness at best and disingenuity at worst.

If you want to play a healer, don't roll a Warden. They're a great pick for fins farming on your "wife's" account that happens to be on the laptop next to your PC though.

Tue 23 Mar 2021 10:03 PM by gotwqqd

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Mar 2021 8:24 PM
boho wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Mar 2021 8:13 PM
Right now they're like Aug Healers that traded the all-powerful Pacification line for Blades, Blunt, and Parry, and traded spec buffs and group celerity for PBT and group damage add (except, sorry, they're chants, so get your MCL3 and AutoHotKey script ready).

Healers don't have spec buffs and never have, unless you count the Aug-only Str/Con, which no one uses unless forced to.

As for the "all-powerful Pacification line" they traded away, the only thing in that line an Aug has is a casted stun which half your realm already has, a casted mez which would be nice to have, and Amnesia which Hibernia admittedly needs a second class with.

Wardens on Phoenix are what they always were before ToA and EA took over, a high throughput healer with amazing group defensive utility. If you don't want to play a healer, don't roll a support class.

What makes you think hibs need a second class with amnesia?

Wed 24 Mar 2021 12:06 AM by Kurbsen

wardens are pretty damn powerful right now in an 8 man. They bring so much to the group, and now that they get greater heals youre able to drop a druid and let the warden go into the second druid slot.

Now for smallman or solo. I would definitely have to agree they are lacking. I wouldnt mind seeing them get shield or celerity, maybe a boost on the damage table a little bit as well.

8 man wardens = great spot
smallman/solo = not so great

Wed 24 Mar 2021 12:31 AM by Freedomcall

don't forget about determination and twf.

Wed 24 Mar 2021 2:31 AM by ExcretusMaximus

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Mar 2021 10:03 PM
What makes you think hibs need a second class with amnesia?

There is a world of difference between having two instant shouts at 2000 range every 10 seconds, and being able to completely shut someone down from 2300 range for as long as you want to.

Though, to be fair, "need" was probably the wrong word to use.

Wed 24 Mar 2021 7:34 AM by Sepplord

Mentalist sound like a good class to add amnesia to

Wed 24 Mar 2021 7:49 AM by inoeth

im not a big fan of old RAs but actually with old RAs warden was alot stronger in small scale rvr since he was able to spec mob plus it was worth investing 50 into blunt to get the 10s stun since purge was rare.... now warden is only good in 8 man and still is the most boring class to play there.

Wed 24 Mar 2021 8:10 AM by Lollie

They could give them the confuse spell, at least that way they can help clearing Theurg pets.

Wed 24 Mar 2021 8:57 AM by gotwqqd

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Mar 2021 7:34 AM
Mentalist sound like a good class to add amnesia to

Sounds appropriate...
But if they went along and did something as unwarranted as adding another amnesia class, I believe the enchanter would be appropriate. They are left behind after changes.

Wed 24 Mar 2021 11:00 AM by Babajaga

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Mar 2021 2:31 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Mar 2021 10:03 PM
What makes you think hibs need a second class with amnesia?

There is a world of difference between having two instant shouts at 2000 range every 10 seconds, and being able to completely shut someone down from 2300 range for as long as you want to.

Though, to be fair, "need" was probably the wrong word to use.

Bard has a particulary role, he is on the frontline of battles as much as the skald, it's all about rupting, snaring, crowded control, bothering and mocking opponents casters and supports.
Please, don't compare them to another amnesia class.