Due to the a host of factors (events, high rank on the "regulars", etc), everybody has just about every class theyd want to make at 50 and with somewhat decent rank. The RvR landscape has been dwindling during NA time pretty badly. We are down to about 3-4 groups and that's it -- of that 3-4 groups 1-2 are very close to quitting entirely.. I have seen the same exact pattern on Uthgard thrice over and I can tell you with confidence the NA playtime will be dead within 6 months as this spiral/domino effect unfolds. This is more of a commentary than a suggestion but my best suggestion would be to implement seasons and give the playerbase something fresh to work on. I understand the controversy around that idea but you are faced with a climate that looks strikingly similar during NA time to that of Uthgard before it died.
The game is getting boring
Started 26 Feb 2021
by
Hector
in
Suggestions
Fri 26 Feb 2021 3:58 PM
by
Magesty
Anecdotally speaking there seems to be a much higher quantity of new players around 7-10 CST since the last event. Will they stick around? Probably not. I do think the constant events cheapen players' ties to their characters and, while it may be bringing in new players for the short term, it may result in experienced players feeling like there is little left to do. That exciting experience of leveling, templating, and finally trying out a new character in RvR is basically shot after a few events. So you could have a situation in which transient players are temporarily increasing server population and more experienced players are being given less reason to stick around for the long haul. I'm not convinced this is the case, but there is certainly an argument to be made that it is a possibility.
Now, when it comes to considering population I don't think looking at the number of active 8 mans is a good way to go about it. The barrier of entry for the playstyle is far too high. New players are far more likely to zerg/solo/small man/stealth, and given what I've seen since the last event that is definitely the case here. It seems to me that "high level" 8v8 is a pretty stale game mode with a relatively static group of players. When you have a population that isn't really capable of growing unless 8 experienced players that aren't already playing here team up you're going to inevitably have population decline over time. If one or two of the NA primetime groups drops off it is a noticeable decline in the population, but as with everything else 8 mans do it has literally no effect on everyone else that is playing the game. I think it can be argued that you'd likely see a much healthier server if high level 8 mans were to drop off entirely, as they add literally nothing to the overall game experience for non 8v8 players, and actively dissuade new/less experienced players from trying to group up and get out there by making the environment far too competitive and rulebound. The tradeoff being that you'd obviously lose consistent players for ones that might not stick around, but does it really matter when those consistent players actively inhibit server growth and don't contribute to anything but some insular team death match?
Now, when it comes to considering population I don't think looking at the number of active 8 mans is a good way to go about it. The barrier of entry for the playstyle is far too high. New players are far more likely to zerg/solo/small man/stealth, and given what I've seen since the last event that is definitely the case here. It seems to me that "high level" 8v8 is a pretty stale game mode with a relatively static group of players. When you have a population that isn't really capable of growing unless 8 experienced players that aren't already playing here team up you're going to inevitably have population decline over time. If one or two of the NA primetime groups drops off it is a noticeable decline in the population, but as with everything else 8 mans do it has literally no effect on everyone else that is playing the game. I think it can be argued that you'd likely see a much healthier server if high level 8 mans were to drop off entirely, as they add literally nothing to the overall game experience for non 8v8 players, and actively dissuade new/less experienced players from trying to group up and get out there by making the environment far too competitive and rulebound. The tradeoff being that you'd obviously lose consistent players for ones that might not stick around, but does it really matter when those consistent players actively inhibit server growth and don't contribute to anything but some insular team death match?
Fri 26 Feb 2021 5:09 PM
by
ExcretusMaximus
Magesty wrote: ↑Fri 26 Feb 2021 3:58 PMNow, when it comes to considering population I don't think looking at the number of active 8 mans is a good way to go about it.
While I realize that Hector is talking only about the 8v8 scene, the total population for NA is garbage, regardless of 8-man groups running or not. There hasn't been a single night for the last three weeks where there are more than 300 people in the frontier at any time between 8 PM and 11 PM Eastern, and for some reason I cannot fathom, half of those are sitting AFK in the relic towns.
It's not just the 8v8 population that is dying in NA, it's the entire thing.
Fri 26 Feb 2021 5:12 PM
by
Astaa
Population is low but steady all the time. Or at least feels that way.
The best thing to do is just take a break until you feel like coming back. See if anything has changed to your liking.
The best thing to do is just take a break until you feel like coming back. See if anything has changed to your liking.
Fri 26 Feb 2021 6:06 PM
by
Kwall0311
Astaa wrote: ↑Fri 26 Feb 2021 5:12 PMThe best thing to do is just take a break until you feel like coming back.
This. Theres no other daoc out there, people take breaks often and come back. If they dont, then thats just the life cycle of this game for them. Phoenix a better option than Live and any other daoc variant out there for people returning to the game.
If youre one of those ones waiting for the other "classic" ( will also be pay to win wrt buff bots etc) , Dont hold your breath.
Sat 27 Feb 2021 4:38 AM
by
Nephamael
I think it can be argued that you'd likely see a much healthier server if high level 8 mans were to drop off entirely, as they add literally nothing to the overall game experience for non 8v8 players, and actively dissuade new/less experienced players from trying to group up and get out there by making the environment far too competitive and rulebound.
You forget that 8v8 players are among the most consistent players on the server and also join/provide a lot of non-8v8 content. Basically all PvP and PvE content is covered by 8v8 players, with a higher percentage found in the more organized/challenging content.
Obviously you aren't wrong about some negative impact, some 8men have, if they humiliatingly destroy random 8s, just like random 8s have a destructive impact on smallmen and solo content and smallmen have a destructive impact on solo content.
How do you get the healthiest possible foodchain? Imo by giving the content that has to feed the most the most QOL = fastest access to action, benefits, even if they die a lot.
= support solos, then support smallmen a bit less, then support 8men a bit less. But it also takes more to build a group, than to just walk out there alone, so building a group needs more benefits than just being able to zerg down lower numbers and here it gets more complicated. So maybe just give everyone as much happiness as possible and give those that get killed the most the fastest access.
-
Another big factor of the natural daoc decline is the high RR stage Phoenix has entered for quite a while now. If i go out with a rr2 solo class that is not ridiculous op and i try to fight rr8-11 solos i will find myself doing exactly the same RP/h like afk-tasking. So why even give it a try?
If i go out with a RR4 8man pug that has not played together for a long time already and does not play the latest fotm-lineup (alb tanker theurg sorc
) and jump into /gvg, i will get rolled all day, people might still make some more RP/h than afk tasking by collecting the /gvg cleanfight reward, but not everyone enjoys losing basically every 8v8 for hours
The problem is, if we do seasons and the server restarts at RR1 the same /gvg groups that play together all day now will still do it and be the first at higher RRs, they will play better together and win just as much as now. The same 24/7 solos will be the first at high RRs and be out of reach of beginners again within a week. And so on.
--------------------------
So what can we actually do?
I think we can only help people get to 5L5 much much much faster than now, no matter which PvP content they choose to play. This will not make a new 8v8 fullpug of fresh 5L5-6L0 toons win against a veteran /gvg group, but it will give them a much higher chance to win vs a 8roam pug of RR8-10s than if they are RR4.
Why not simply triple all RPs gained until RR5 and then double them to RR6. Maybe not exactly at the event speed but somewhat closing in on it.
And give out more RPs for losing in RvR, add RPs for ccing/nearsighting,debuffing,diseasing, for dmg dealt in any fight from 1v1 to 8v150. Even for dieing. The lower RR the more.
Of course all of us who play here have invested days and days to upp our RR, but if we want Phoenix to stay healthy we have to keep it welcoming to new players and give them ways to catch up waaaaay faster than they can right now in RR.
Sat 27 Feb 2021 12:43 PM
by
opossum12
Well the gane us 20 years ild. While it is still a great game and has the best pvp system, it's just old. People that play daoc have done it all already.
Server pop is driven by events, because they change up the usual go to EV, fight, relearlse rinse repeat dynamic or the beat on door X, take lord, afk 2 min, go to keep Y, rinse and repeat.
I find the Mordred events great because they allow us to try new things/group comps. Game balance changes are good. Introducing new content/classes is good.
You have to make the game evolve, you can't freeze it in SI and expect peope to never get bored with it.
And they actually did a seasonal server, 1 year duration would be good imo.
Server pop is driven by events, because they change up the usual go to EV, fight, relearlse rinse repeat dynamic or the beat on door X, take lord, afk 2 min, go to keep Y, rinse and repeat.
I find the Mordred events great because they allow us to try new things/group comps. Game balance changes are good. Introducing new content/classes is good.
You have to make the game evolve, you can't freeze it in SI and expect peope to never get bored with it.
And they actually did a seasonal server, 1 year duration would be good imo.
Sat 27 Feb 2021 5:42 PM
by
joshisanonymous
Magesty wrote: ↑Fri 26 Feb 2021 3:58 PMNow, when it comes to considering population I don't think looking at the number of active 8 mans is a good way to go about it. The barrier of entry for the playstyle is far too high. New players are far more likely to zerg/solo/small man/stealth, and given what I've seen since the last event that is definitely the case here. It seems to me that "high level" 8v8 is a pretty stale game mode with a relatively static group of players. When you have a population that isn't really capable of growing unless 8 experienced players that aren't already playing here team up you're going to inevitably have population decline over time. If one or two of the NA primetime groups drops off it is a noticeable decline in the population, but as with everything else 8 mans do it has literally no effect on everyone else that is playing the game. I think it can be argued that you'd likely see a much healthier server if high level 8 mans were to drop off entirely, as they add literally nothing to the overall game experience for non 8v8 players, and actively dissuade new/less experienced players from trying to group up and get out there by making the environment far too competitive and rulebound. The tradeoff being that you'd obviously lose consistent players for ones that might not stick around, but does it really matter when those consistent players actively inhibit server growth and don't contribute to anything but some insular team death match?
Wholeheartedly agree. 8mans come up with self-imposed rules that create static, repetitive, boring play, then are surprised when they end up getting bored, then quit.
One of the things that people seem to love about the leveling event, gameplay-wise, is that it's chaotic. You start fights and then suddenly have others join in and have to constantly be on your toes and adjusting. Naturally, that sense of unpredictability is fun. That could exist in the 8v8 scene (and solo scene), as well, but for some reason people insist on "clean fights" even if they really like the very messy fights that they get during the event.
EDIT: Also, I'll be thoroughly pissed if seasons are implemented because some 8mans got bored.
Sat 27 Feb 2021 5:46 PM
by
thirian24
I think having the playing field event so often is detrimental to the server health. At first I didn’t feel this way when it was a rare occasion. But now, I feel like the more the event happens, more and more people just wait to do anything at all, until an event comes. This goes for xping and regular RvR. Why xp grind when it’s better to do it in the event? Why RvR grind for rps, when you can do I quicker in the event? Why roam for hours with limited action, when you can just wait for an event and have insane, nonstop action.
So, I feel like these events happening so often, are detrimental to the overall server health. Even though there are population spikes during those events, I believe it’s a short term event only rise. Then people stop playing after the event, just to wait for the next one.
I think there are ways to bring spice into Phoenix. Some of those ideas are;
1. New updated gear/jewelry/weapons/procs/charges
2. 101 stat cap
3. Some new for of high end PVE. There are MANY zones within this game that aren’t even being used.
I think introducing new gear and higher stat cap, would give people something to do to increase their future potential in RvR. I know not everybody would agree with this.
So, I feel like these events happening so often, are detrimental to the overall server health. Even though there are population spikes during those events, I believe it’s a short term event only rise. Then people stop playing after the event, just to wait for the next one.
I think there are ways to bring spice into Phoenix. Some of those ideas are;
1. New updated gear/jewelry/weapons/procs/charges
2. 101 stat cap
3. Some new for of high end PVE. There are MANY zones within this game that aren’t even being used.
I think introducing new gear and higher stat cap, would give people something to do to increase their future potential in RvR. I know not everybody would agree with this.
Sat 27 Feb 2021 6:29 PM
by
ExcretusMaximus
Nephamael wrote: ↑Sat 27 Feb 2021 4:38 AMadd RPs for ccing/nearsighting,debuffing,diseasing, for dmg dealt in any fight from 1v1 to 8v150. Even for dieing. The lower RR the more.
I understand you added the lower realm rank bit as a caveat, but you're just going to increase the gap even more by rewarding that stuff, unless the rank drop-off is utterly ridiculous.
Sat 27 Feb 2021 6:38 PM
by
ExcretusMaximus
thirian24 wrote: ↑Sat 27 Feb 2021 5:46 PMI think introducing new gear and higher stat cap, would give people something to do to increase their future potential in RvR. I know not everybody would agree with this.
Agreed, especially with the server being as old as it is, but they're obsessed with their promise to never introduce anything that will require people to redo templates.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:41 AM
by
Nephamael
1. New updated gear/jewelry/weapons/procs/charges
2. 101 stat cap
3. Some new for of high end PVE. There are MANY zones within this game that aren’t even being used.
I think introducing new gear and higher stat cap, would give people something to do to increase their future potential in RvR. I know not everybody would agree with this.
Raising the pve amount people have to overcome to enter RvR and compete on the same gear level would lead to a fast death of the server for sure.
However i think adding more optional PvE content like ML encounters as an alternative to DS/HoH, just for feathers/rogs farming would surely be fun for many people.
It has to be strictly optional tho, without any additional obtainable outside-pve-advantages.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 1:24 AM
by
Nephamael
I understand you added the lower realm rank bit as a caveat, but you're just going to increase the gap even more by rewarding that stuff, unless the rank drop-off is utterly ridiculous.
Let's say 6L0 is the minimum RR you need to be able to compete in the high end 8v8 and 1v1 content and do well in all other PvP content.
Thats roughly 1.000.000 RPs. So if someone starts a fresh toon and does:
- 3-5k RP/h (low RR visible solo) he needs 200-333 hours played on one toon to reach 6L0 (=8-13 days /played)
- 8k RP/h (pug/low rr 8v8) he needs 125 hours played on one toon to RR 6L0 (=5 days /played)
- 12k/h (smallman or 8roam) he needs 83 hours played on one toon to RR 6L0 (= 3.5 days /played)
-15k/h (eu zerg) he needs67 hours played on one toon to RR 6L0 (2.8 days /played)
+ time to xp from lvl1 to 50.
If you estimate a casual player has as much as 1h time per day to play daoc, that means he needs to play for 67 to 333 days to only reach the bare minimum RR to somewhat evenly compete. Thats over 2 month to up to almost 1 year, just to be able to compete!.
Even if you estimate someone has as much as 4 hours average per day, he still needs 17 to 83 days, just to catch up.
Pick of the RP/h averages, which value you think is realistic, imo even at 15k/h it is by far not fast enough.
For some classes it's more like 7L5 you need at high end gvg, so that's already more than double the times displayed above.
For comparison:
My solo warden has over 7 days /played on lvl50 at 6L0
In the event 6L1 took me roughly 1 days and 20h /played on my animist, that includes xping.
- All i ask is to give casual players a chance to catch up. And someone playing a lot (4h a day) the chance to play the "e-sports" content after a week or two.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 5:50 AM
by
ExcretusMaximus
Oh, dude, please don't misunderstand me, I agree completely that the gap is huge and unfun, I just don't think giving away RP for things like mezzing and healing and diseasing and damage and everything else like you suggested is consequence free, because the high RR groups already do those things better than the low RR ones -- it's one of the reasons they're high RR.
If you want to include a hard "shut-off" for those incentives, that'd be one thing, but leaving them in after a certain point will only increase the gap, not lessen it.
If you want to include a hard "shut-off" for those incentives, that'd be one thing, but leaving them in after a certain point will only increase the gap, not lessen it.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 6:07 AM
by
easytoremember
I don't think giving rp for mez/debuff would be a problemExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑Sun 28 Feb 2021 5:50 AMOh, dude, please don't misunderstand me, I agree completely that the gap is huge and unfun, I just don't think giving away RP for things like mezzing and healing and diseasing and damage and everything else like you suggested is consequence free, because the high RR groups already do those things better than the low RR ones -- it's one of the reasons they're high RR.
If you want to include a hard "shut-off" for those incentives, that'd be one thing, but leaving them in after a certain point will only increase the gap, not lessen it.
if it was redundant to credit for damage
Sun 28 Feb 2021 7:54 AM
by
Astaa
Gaining RP won't make people good players, most of the high RR folk are pretty bad, some are exceptional ofc.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 11:46 AM
by
Griselda
Events are great, problem I see is the amount of custom changes make people feel like everything they can't deal with has to be changed lately. And the more custom changes there are the more this server will alienate people that are coming back for a classic experience and then see the class they played has changes that have never been in place anywhere else. This is how live servers got bad. Just give ench root and warden greater heal and then be done with all the custom changes.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 5:49 PM
by
Frostburn
Running into a 100 alb zerg at most times of the day is making the game real stale. Reminds me of the hib cow zerg that ruined live .
Tue 2 Mar 2021 10:29 AM
by
Centenario
Nephamael wrote: ↑Sat 27 Feb 2021 4:38 AMThe problem is, if we do seasons and the server restarts at RR1 the same /gvg groups that play together all day now will still do it and be the first at higher RRs, they will play better together and win just as much as now. The same 24/7 solos will be the first at high RRs and be out of reach of beginners again within a week. And so on.
--------------------------
So what can we actually do?
I think we can only help people get to 5L5 much much much faster than now, no matter which PvP content they choose to play. This will not make a new 8v8 fullpug of fresh 5L5-6L0 toons win against a veteran /gvg group, but it will give them a much higher chance to win vs a 8roam pug of RR8-10s than if they are RR4.
Why not simply triple all RPs gained until RR5 and then double them to RR6. Maybe not exactly at the event speed but somewhat closing in on it.
And give out more RPs for losing in RvR, add RPs for ccing/nearsighting,debuffing,diseasing, for dmg dealt in any fight from 1v1 to 8v150. Even for dieing. The lower RR the more.
Of course all of us who play here have invested days and days to upp our RR, but if we want Phoenix to stay healthy we have to keep it welcoming to new players and give them ways to catch up waaaaay faster than they can right now in RR.
I have been playing for 2 years at least, most of my chars are under 5L, I think my highest is 5L5.
1) I don't like bg
2) I don't stick to one character
3) I don't feel any of my character is strong enough to feel like playing it
4) I prefer PvE
5) I don't play with fixed 8-man
6) Most people I fight against have arbitrage advantages due to RR
Frankly I have been advocating for letting players start at 5L when hitting lvl 50, just to get access to the basic stuff, or give them for free to everybody like they did with Tireless:
- Tireless (1)
- LongWind (1)
- Purge 3 (15)
- SoS/Ichor/TWF/Maelstrom/DashingDefence (5)
- Aug dex 5 (10) or Melee equivalent
- MoArts 5 (10) or Melee equivalent
- AoM 5 (10)
- MCL/First Aid (3)
Total= 55 points or 6L5
These are in my opinion the basics to get to a level playing field (event), which is why I advocate for it being available to everybody right of the bat.
Lets say instead of 6L5 right of the bat, maybe 5L is a good starting point.
I have been playing some other games on the side:
FPS: Valorant/CSGO/Apex
RPG: PoE <- Seasons
Mini-Games: HearthstoneBG/TFT/AutoChess
I much prefer being on an even playing field and only skill giving and edge over other and involve less luck/arbitrage
When you can launch an Apex game and in <5 minutes being decked out to compete is a lot better than waiting 6+month of casual playing.
Tue 2 Mar 2021 4:53 PM
by
Beckett
Beckett
Please keep the bad language and insults towards other players out of the forum.
Tue 2 Mar 2021 7:32 PM
by
DJ2000
Magesty's (apparently now deleted) post got one or two chuckles out of me.
Yes, there are "gaps" between players what they consider good/bad/exciting/boring.
What is Important, is that you, me (and/or everyone else) have to accept, that there are different opinions, tastes and viewpoints within this (or any) community. Like it or not.
But that doesn't mean i have to like that/those opinion(s).
I for example fundamentally disagree with 90% of what centenario said, or how/what he tried to compare DaoC to other Genres/Games (i dont even know some of those games.)
Honestly, it is pointless arguing about it though. Won't lose sleep over anything anyone says. Everyone is old enough to know what is nonsense and what's not. i certainly cba anymore.
To me, it feels he wants an "Instant50-Server" for instant action.
There has been plenty Servers of that, and they have gone out just as fast as they came in.
There have been (and are still TBA) plans for comp. Arena Servers, for as long as i can remember of private DaoC shards being a thing.
All sorts of Thid/molvik/DF/whateveryouwant Servers in the past. None is everlasting. Not Uthgard, not Phoenix.
Yes, there are "gaps" between players what they consider good/bad/exciting/boring.
What is Important, is that you, me (and/or everyone else) have to accept, that there are different opinions, tastes and viewpoints within this (or any) community. Like it or not.
But that doesn't mean i have to like that/those opinion(s).
I for example fundamentally disagree with 90% of what centenario said, or how/what he tried to compare DaoC to other Genres/Games (i dont even know some of those games.)
Honestly, it is pointless arguing about it though. Won't lose sleep over anything anyone says. Everyone is old enough to know what is nonsense and what's not. i certainly cba anymore.
To me, it feels he wants an "Instant50-Server" for instant action.
There has been plenty Servers of that, and they have gone out just as fast as they came in.
There have been (and are still TBA) plans for comp. Arena Servers, for as long as i can remember of private DaoC shards being a thing.
All sorts of Thid/molvik/DF/whateveryouwant Servers in the past. None is everlasting. Not Uthgard, not Phoenix.
Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:06 PM
by
Nephamael
Frankly I have been advocating for letting players start at 5L when hitting lvl 50, just to get access to the basic stuff, or give them for free to everybody like they did with Tireless:
- Tireless (1)
- LongWind (1)
- Purge 3 (15)
- SoS/Ichor/TWF/Maelstrom/DashingDefence (5)
- Aug dex 5 (10) or Melee equivalent
- MoArts 5 (10) or Melee equivalent
- AoM 5 (10)
- MCL/First Aid (3)
Total= 55 points or 6L5
I strongly disagree with letting everyone start at any place above 1L1.
Climbing the RR ladder is a fundamental part of DaoC - i just ask to make it a lot faster, so every casual can catch up within 2 months, if he sticks to 1 toon and every player investing lots of time every day (4h) can join the "esports" content within 2 weeks.
Tue 2 Mar 2021 9:54 PM
by
gotwqqd
Two months of discouraging play?Nephamael wrote: ↑Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:06 PMFrankly I have been advocating for letting players start at 5L when hitting lvl 50, just to get access to the basic stuff, or give them for free to everybody like they did with Tireless:
- Tireless (1)
- LongWind (1)
- Purge 3 (15)
- SoS/Ichor/TWF/Maelstrom/DashingDefence (5)
- Aug dex 5 (10) or Melee equivalent
- MoArts 5 (10) or Melee equivalent
- AoM 5 (10)
- MCL/First Aid (3)
Total= 55 points or 6L5
I strongly disagree with letting everyone start at any place above 1L1.
Climbing the RR ladder is a fundamental part of DaoC - i just ask to make it a lot faster, so every casual can catch up within 2 months, if he sticks to 1 toon and every player investing lots of time every day (4h) can join the "esports" content within 2 weeks.
I think they can accelerate progress to RR5L5 much faster and it will only help population and do zero harm.
They can give 4x rp over what exists until the threshold....maybe drop it to 2x at 5L0 till 5L5.
I also advocate for purge 1 being automatic at level35
Wed 3 Mar 2021 2:28 AM
by
joshisanonymous
This is turning into an argument about what's the right amount of cheapening to apply to in game accomplishments.
Wed 3 Mar 2021 8:43 AM
by
DJ2000
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑Wed 3 Mar 2021 2:28 AMThis is turning into an argument about what's the right amount of cheapening to apply to in game accomplishments.
The First post was about the supposedly dwindling NA 8v8 Playerbase, accompanied by the redundant demand for the introduction of Seasons into Phoenix, which is basically just a request to hit the RR reset button. Some rather want a RR accelerate button, others a RR instant button.
Not sure if this is really about NA playernumbers or just another "cover" to advocate for their suggestions.
I am all up for discussions/suggestions/etc for the first one, but for the seconnd one i cba anymore to go over this for the 12x time.
Wed 3 Mar 2021 4:56 PM
by
Magesty
DJ2000 wrote: ↑Tue 2 Mar 2021 7:32 PMMagesty's (apparently now deleted) post got one or two chuckles out of me.
Glad you had a chance to read it. Sometimes the best way to interact with lousy ideas is by satirizing them. The eternal downside of satire is that readers will occasionally take it literally, and in an increasingly polarized world the actual meaning is becoming more frequently missed.
To summarize my now deleted post:
The reality is more and more of the people posting on these types of threads don't actually want to play an MMORPG and don't really even like DAoC as a whole, but they fail to realize it. They just want DAoC's combat system dropped into an arena style game that matches the pacing and positive feedback provided by modern games.
Wed 3 Mar 2021 5:47 PM
by
Centenario
Magesty wrote: ↑Wed 3 Mar 2021 4:56 PMDJ2000 wrote: ↑Tue 2 Mar 2021 7:32 PMMagesty's (apparently now deleted) post got one or two chuckles out of me.
Glad you had a chance to read it. Sometimes the best way to interact with lousy ideas is by satirizing them. The eternal downside of satire is that readers will occasionally take it literally, and in an increasingly polarized world the actual meaning is becoming more frequently missed.
To summarize my now deleted post:
The reality is more and more of the people posting on these types of threads don't actually want to play an MMORPG and don't really even like DAoC as a whole, but they fail to realize it. They just want DAoC's combat system dropped into an arena style game that matches the pacing and positive feedback provided by modern games.
Its really not my case,
I am a casual, have played DAoC 20 years ago.
I have said that I want players to start at 5L, because it is in my opinion a 50 hour grind at 10k per hour doing flag/casual 8-man - to just get the basic RA to have a good time when doing RvR.
When your mezz never lands even if you cast before and dont get amnesied just because of cast speed, or you can't demezz as fast as the opponent.
When you lose those split seconds just because of lack of RA its frustrating.
If you are fighting against 10L that use purge every single INC and you have to wait 15mins and 3sec delay...
When you dont have access to Mastery of Conc.
When you have to wait to get det9 and purge 3 to start being valuable as a tank to your group.
These things are huge handicap for fairplay.
You can level from 1 to 50 in one weekend or less, but you have to wait 50 hours of frustrating encounters just to remove the arrows to the knees.
We have almost all been 7L+ and its not an achievment anymore. What we want is to go from 7L to 12L.
Do you want to play the tutorial every time you make a new char, even if you have been playing for 20 years?
As a casual I play maybe 15-25 hours per week, which is quite high.
I don't want at all a 8v8 arena gameplay, keep this for gvg people which are mostly hardcore 2month to 10L players, who play the game competitively.
With tons of hours played I have weighted my opinion and think that it would be better for the playerbase to be 5L at lvl 50.
The level playing field event almost grants this if you stick to one character during the whole event. Most people enjoy that.
Wed 3 Mar 2021 6:45 PM
by
Magesty
MMORPGs, especially those from DAoC's era, reward time investment. This is a fundamental building block of the genre. The idea being, as it is an RPG, you can continue to grow your avatar for years. If you kneecap the potential for growth, you are stifling one of the primary incentives for playing.
If some no-lifer is able to play the same character every night with his 7 no-lifer friends they are going to have stronger characters and be more coordinated as a group. Their 10L5 group is still going to be doing things like casting faster and using active abilities more often than a 5L5 group. The event is in place to attempt to make starting out as a new player more tolerable, but the reality is there is still going to be a meaningful gap in power and experience/skill. A PUG of 5L5 casuals can not and should not be able to compete consistently with a group of 10L5 players that group up together every night.
By complaining about a lack of "fairplay" due to time invested, and creating a list of grievances that essentially run counter to some of the core tenets of the genre (inability to stick with one character, not continuing to play characters if you face adversity, refusing to participate in styles of PvP you can actually compete in), you are announcing very clearly that you don't actually like MMORPGs. It seems apparent to everyone but yourself that you'd prefer to be able to drop in as a "casual" player on a random character and in a game mode of your choice and be placed on a level playing field regardless of time invested. This isn't how "golden age" MMORPGs work.
There is a separate conversation to be had about the game's many poorly designed and problematic mechanics and the issue with 8v8 gameplay in general, but that that discussion looks a lot different than the one being had here.
If some no-lifer is able to play the same character every night with his 7 no-lifer friends they are going to have stronger characters and be more coordinated as a group. Their 10L5 group is still going to be doing things like casting faster and using active abilities more often than a 5L5 group. The event is in place to attempt to make starting out as a new player more tolerable, but the reality is there is still going to be a meaningful gap in power and experience/skill. A PUG of 5L5 casuals can not and should not be able to compete consistently with a group of 10L5 players that group up together every night.
By complaining about a lack of "fairplay" due to time invested, and creating a list of grievances that essentially run counter to some of the core tenets of the genre (inability to stick with one character, not continuing to play characters if you face adversity, refusing to participate in styles of PvP you can actually compete in), you are announcing very clearly that you don't actually like MMORPGs. It seems apparent to everyone but yourself that you'd prefer to be able to drop in as a "casual" player on a random character and in a game mode of your choice and be placed on a level playing field regardless of time invested. This isn't how "golden age" MMORPGs work.
There is a separate conversation to be had about the game's many poorly designed and problematic mechanics and the issue with 8v8 gameplay in general, but that that discussion looks a lot different than the one being had here.
Wed 3 Mar 2021 7:00 PM
by
Nephamael
MMORPGs, especially those from DAoC's era, reward time investment. This is a fundamental building block of the genre. The idea being, as it is an RPG, you can continue to grow your avatar for years. If you kneecap the potential for growth, you are stifling one of the primary incentives for playing.
If some no-lifer is able to play the same character every night with his 7 no-lifer friends they are going to have stronger characters and be more coordinated as a group. Their 10L5 group is still going to be doing things like casting faster and using active abilities more often than a 5L5 group. The event is in place to attempt to make starting out as a new player more tolerable, but the reality is there is still going to be a meaningful gap in power and experience/skill. A PUG of 5L5 casuals can not and should not be able to compete consistently with a group of 10L5 players that group up together every night.
By complaining about a lack of "fairplay" due to time invested, and creating a list of grievances that essentially run counter to some of the core tenets of the genre (inability to stick with one character, not continuing to play characters if you face adversity, refusing to participate in styles of PvP you can actually compete in), you are announcing very clearly that you don't actually like MMORPGs. It seems apparent to everyone but yourself that you'd prefer to be able to drop in as a "casual" player on a random character and in a game mode of your choice and be placed on a level playing field regardless of time invested. This isn't how "golden age" MMORPGs work.
There is a separate conversation to be had about the game's many poorly designed and problematic mechanics and the issue with 8v8 gameplay in general, but that that discussion looks a lot different than the one being had here.
You are not completely wrong about some points - in fact it is needed to tune this beautiful 20 year old game a little to keep it appealing to not just returning but especially new players.
DAoC Phoenix has to become a modern version of DAoC if it wants to prevail against other games.
And speeding up the way to 6L0 will be the most vital part of being a new-player-welcoming-server. For all content - here you are completely wrong. People should not get forced to play the 1 content open for all to make quick RPs (zerging) - the zergs are very healthy in hib and alb and the only reason they are struggling in mid is because there are no 24/7 zergleaders around.
But even if you play your 1-2 hours daily gaming time in the zerg and do 15k/h you still need far 2 long to catch up to RR6 - i agree there should not be an immediate start at RR5, just narrow the time investment to reach it significantly.
(sidecomment: it is not about winning with a 5L-6L pug against a rr10 real gvg grp - it is about winning if you convincingly outplay them - and that is simply not possible if you are rr3-4, not in 8v8 and also not in 1v1)
Wed 3 Mar 2021 11:48 PM
by
Hector
Haven't replied since my original post to foster some discussion.
I would like to point out that the basis of this entire suggestion, theoretically, is that players flock to a "fresh start." A planned rr wipe would allow players to re-organize, re-plan, get excited about investing into the server when the playing field is truly even again. I use the 8v8 population during NA time as an example of why my time that I invested in since 2019 has become stale and tedious.
To be clear, I understand the consequences of a RR wipe. It certainly would upset some high rank people that put a lot of time into their character progression. However, I suggest to you that for every high rank person tearing it up in RvR, there are at least 10 who got frustrated with the rank gap and quit. I can off the top of my head name several people that have become bored with Phoenix in its current state and only play when the pvp events are live, otherwise they don't play at all. That is a result of sheer boredom.
If you let players keep their characters, money, rogs, reskins, etc., and literally ONLY wipe the RR, you could announce this in advance and give groups a chance to come back, level their chars to 50 in anticipation of the RR wipe, and hit the ground running on day 1 of the new season.
At the end of the day, it's 2021 and we are playing a 20 year old game. The question shouldn't be how do we keep things going as is? The question should be how do we protect the integrity and legacy of DAoC while still keeping things fresh and exciting. Seasonal DAoC is the answer.
I would like to point out that the basis of this entire suggestion, theoretically, is that players flock to a "fresh start." A planned rr wipe would allow players to re-organize, re-plan, get excited about investing into the server when the playing field is truly even again. I use the 8v8 population during NA time as an example of why my time that I invested in since 2019 has become stale and tedious.
To be clear, I understand the consequences of a RR wipe. It certainly would upset some high rank people that put a lot of time into their character progression. However, I suggest to you that for every high rank person tearing it up in RvR, there are at least 10 who got frustrated with the rank gap and quit. I can off the top of my head name several people that have become bored with Phoenix in its current state and only play when the pvp events are live, otherwise they don't play at all. That is a result of sheer boredom.
If you let players keep their characters, money, rogs, reskins, etc., and literally ONLY wipe the RR, you could announce this in advance and give groups a chance to come back, level their chars to 50 in anticipation of the RR wipe, and hit the ground running on day 1 of the new season.
At the end of the day, it's 2021 and we are playing a 20 year old game. The question shouldn't be how do we keep things going as is? The question should be how do we protect the integrity and legacy of DAoC while still keeping things fresh and exciting. Seasonal DAoC is the answer.
Thu 4 Mar 2021 12:07 AM
by
easytoremember
"daoc is 19 years old these changes will make it fun"Hector wrote: ↑Wed 3 Mar 2021 11:48 PMAt the end of the day, it's 2021 and we are playing a 20 year old game. The question shouldn't be how do we keep things going as is?
*changes it*
"guys this is boring daoc is a 20 year old game these changes will make it fun"
*?*
Next year it will be 2022 do they have to botch the already botched game again then too for you?
Thu 4 Mar 2021 2:43 AM
by
Irkeno
Honestly, seasons is the way to go.
For sure dont make people level again, but the tediousness comes from every group now having every single toy up in every fight and there being nothing interesting or dynamic left to it.
+timers are way too short so each fight becomes an RA dump anyway.
Reason the events are so popular is that everyone is given the same access to the same toys and the same start and it's pure chaos, and its great. That and the actual 'playable' area in the last event was more diverse than the entire playable area for most of the playerbase who just rotate between beno/dc/bled dock/drop now anway.
Add seasons in rvr and move people away from the keeps a bit and you have your fun back again.
For sure dont make people level again, but the tediousness comes from every group now having every single toy up in every fight and there being nothing interesting or dynamic left to it.
+timers are way too short so each fight becomes an RA dump anyway.
Reason the events are so popular is that everyone is given the same access to the same toys and the same start and it's pure chaos, and its great. That and the actual 'playable' area in the last event was more diverse than the entire playable area for most of the playerbase who just rotate between beno/dc/bled dock/drop now anway.
Add seasons in rvr and move people away from the keeps a bit and you have your fun back again.
Thu 4 Mar 2021 3:15 AM
by
ExcretusMaximus
Well said.
Thu 4 Mar 2021 4:27 AM
by
Magesty
Nephamael wrote: ↑Wed 3 Mar 2021 7:00 PMAnd speeding up the way to 6L0 will be the most vital part of being a new-player-welcoming-server. For all content - here you are completely wrong. People should not get forced to play the 1 content open for all to make quick RPs (zerging) - the zergs are very healthy in hib and alb and the only reason they are struggling in mid is because there are no 24/7 zergleaders around.
I don't believe that people should be or are forced to play one type of content. I would think, however, that players who express a yearning for the path of least resistance to maximum reward need to accept that they will have to engage in certain styles of play to actually achieve that in a game with open world PvP. They can still solo or PUG and they will climb in ranks. It just isn't going to be quite as easy, and they will lose a lot of fights. Personally, I don't see what is wrong with that. It's a PvP MMORPG. The task rewards are much more significant pre RR5 for exactly this reason.
As for seasons-- I don't really see the point. You attract a number of players for what might be an exciting "launch", and within a month or two there is already a significant rift in RL again. What is gained? You brought in some amount of players who couldn't be bothered to play the server in its current state and now they are quitting again in a couple of months. So you are left with a population that looks much the same as it currently does
The server is then set to reset again after a year and the same thing happens, only this time you have a 1-3 month period at the end of the "season" where most players are disinterested in participating as their progress is just going to get wiped once more. I have trouble envisioning it not turning out this way, and I just don't buy that somehow an RR reset will make all the "new" players that it might bring in stick around.
And let's be real, with very few exceptions, they wont be actual new players, they will be players who have already quit for one reason or another and will do so again.
I do think there is an argument to be made that as the server has been refined over the past couple of years there is some chance that certain new-old players will realize how much better it has become since the drudgery of OF has been removed, but I'm not convinced that will somehow result in a better population a few months after a reset, especially knowing another one is coming.
Thu 4 Mar 2021 10:24 AM
by
Centenario
What about finding a new system for RR: (out of the box thinking)
You start with 40 RA points and +4 all skills (RR5), every month if you achieve 1 million points you get 1 Realm Rank upgrade, and thats the maximum per month per character.
Next month you start with +10 RA points.
So 50 RA points, +5 all skills (RR6)
This throttles progression of people who are rushing RR, and every 6 months players can get to RR10+ with only 1million RP per month earned.
Then reset to RR5 every 6 months.
At least the game doesnt get stale and most player can fight on an even playing field in terms of RA.
You would also have catch-up mechanism, meaning if you are on the 3rd month a fresh 50, you'd get a 10% rp bonus per month elapsed and a total limit of 1RR upgrade per month elapsed, in this case you get a 30% RP bonus and up to 3Million=3 RR upgrades.
If you achieve RR10+ at the end of the 6 months
0=rr5
1=rr6
2=rr7
3=rr8
4=rr9
5=rr10
6=rr11
If you achieve RR 10+ in a 6 month period, then at the reset your character starts at with 1 RR upgrade already
People who havent achieved 10L+ will restart at 5L and those who have, will restart from rr6.
After 4 seasons everybody is reset to 5L
You start with 40 RA points and +4 all skills (RR5), every month if you achieve 1 million points you get 1 Realm Rank upgrade, and thats the maximum per month per character.
Next month you start with +10 RA points.
So 50 RA points, +5 all skills (RR6)
This throttles progression of people who are rushing RR, and every 6 months players can get to RR10+ with only 1million RP per month earned.
Then reset to RR5 every 6 months.
At least the game doesnt get stale and most player can fight on an even playing field in terms of RA.
You would also have catch-up mechanism, meaning if you are on the 3rd month a fresh 50, you'd get a 10% rp bonus per month elapsed and a total limit of 1RR upgrade per month elapsed, in this case you get a 30% RP bonus and up to 3Million=3 RR upgrades.
If you achieve RR10+ at the end of the 6 months
0=rr5
1=rr6
2=rr7
3=rr8
4=rr9
5=rr10
6=rr11
If you achieve RR 10+ in a 6 month period, then at the reset your character starts at with 1 RR upgrade already
People who havent achieved 10L+ will restart at 5L and those who have, will restart from rr6.
After 4 seasons everybody is reset to 5L
Thu 4 Mar 2021 11:13 AM
by
Sepplord
that sounds like it is only capping the most extreme players, while heavily hindering most people that aren't getting 1mill RPs per month...
FFS 1million RP per month is over 30k a day...what about playing 3hours a day, every day, for a month straight seems like something benefitting a casual player ^^
And the fresh 50 on month three, they get a 30% RP Bonus, but can "max out" at 3million RP that month. So deducting the 30% bonus (assuming it would be flat % multiplicative with all other existing bonuses) the 3million turns into approximately 2.3million RPs to be earned without the bonus.
Which in turn means over 75k RP/day, every day, for a month straight.
So just invest basically a full time jobs scedule into the game and you can catch up
Resets do not help the casual players. It might look like that for a very very miniscule time right after reset, but the people who play all day will increase their advantage INCREDIBLY fast at the start, while at high RRs their progress heavily declines. while at the same time a gap of 2-3RRs doesn't hurt as much anymore.
The only solution would be removal of the grind, and plenty of freeshards have shown that that doesn't create any longterm appeal to the majority of the players
FFS 1million RP per month is over 30k a day...what about playing 3hours a day, every day, for a month straight seems like something benefitting a casual player ^^
And the fresh 50 on month three, they get a 30% RP Bonus, but can "max out" at 3million RP that month. So deducting the 30% bonus (assuming it would be flat % multiplicative with all other existing bonuses) the 3million turns into approximately 2.3million RPs to be earned without the bonus.
Which in turn means over 75k RP/day, every day, for a month straight.
So just invest basically a full time jobs scedule into the game and you can catch up
Resets do not help the casual players. It might look like that for a very very miniscule time right after reset, but the people who play all day will increase their advantage INCREDIBLY fast at the start, while at high RRs their progress heavily declines. while at the same time a gap of 2-3RRs doesn't hurt as much anymore.
The only solution would be removal of the grind, and plenty of freeshards have shown that that doesn't create any longterm appeal to the majority of the players
Thu 4 Mar 2021 11:30 AM
by
gotwqqd
Only 1 million per month.......
Thu 4 Mar 2021 12:24 PM
by
Centenario
These are just X & Y that can be defined, what's important is the system, not the actual values set.
Thu 4 Mar 2021 2:54 PM
by
omicidi
*class dependent*
Classes that require multiple actives to be competitive: healer, bard, eld, etc. have certain power spikes and diminishing returns on realm rank until another benchmark is hit.
Example-
Eldritch power spikes:
MCL-3
Ichor-5
MoC-5
Purge 2-10
Dex 3-4
(MoF 3-4)
Casting speed v-10
37 points(41 with mof); 4L7(5l1 with mof). For a utility caster, this is the start at being competitive.
Next power spike for the eld is 5l8 (6l1) with mom3 and wp4. At this point you’re a big enough hammer to be a consistent threat.
After that, you’re looking at increasing purge, ichor and damage passives. The extra purge points only makes a difference if you need to purge. The extra ichor is nice. The extra damage passives are nice.
As you increase in realm ranks, obviously the passives increase and your overall dps increases a few percentage points. So what’s the difference between a rr6 and 12?
Higher purge, mcl2, maybe some PD, ichor 3, and higher damage passives.
Out of all of that, the most impactful is probably mcl2, followed by ichor 3. Damage passives obviously create an overall higher dps experience, but the roi per ra point spent goes down significantly.
So yes, more rr = better. However, once you hit your classes competitive power spikes, it’s more about the decisions you make, decisions your team makes and how you play as a team.
If you’re a mid rr pug, of course you’re going to struggle against a group that is higher rr and plays together often. Particularly groups that are high rr that run the flavor of the month groups: theurg, merc x 2, min, friar, sorc, cleric
Classes that require multiple actives to be competitive: healer, bard, eld, etc. have certain power spikes and diminishing returns on realm rank until another benchmark is hit.
Example-
Eldritch power spikes:
MCL-3
Ichor-5
MoC-5
Purge 2-10
Dex 3-4
(MoF 3-4)
Casting speed v-10
37 points(41 with mof); 4L7(5l1 with mof). For a utility caster, this is the start at being competitive.
Next power spike for the eld is 5l8 (6l1) with mom3 and wp4. At this point you’re a big enough hammer to be a consistent threat.
After that, you’re looking at increasing purge, ichor and damage passives. The extra purge points only makes a difference if you need to purge. The extra ichor is nice. The extra damage passives are nice.
As you increase in realm ranks, obviously the passives increase and your overall dps increases a few percentage points. So what’s the difference between a rr6 and 12?
Higher purge, mcl2, maybe some PD, ichor 3, and higher damage passives.
Out of all of that, the most impactful is probably mcl2, followed by ichor 3. Damage passives obviously create an overall higher dps experience, but the roi per ra point spent goes down significantly.
So yes, more rr = better. However, once you hit your classes competitive power spikes, it’s more about the decisions you make, decisions your team makes and how you play as a team.
If you’re a mid rr pug, of course you’re going to struggle against a group that is higher rr and plays together often. Particularly groups that are high rr that run the flavor of the month groups: theurg, merc x 2, min, friar, sorc, cleric
Thu 4 Mar 2021 3:21 PM
by
joshisanonymous
So much of this conversation is assuming that it's impossible to have fun in this game at low RR and that it's impossible to find success at low RR and that there are no mechanisms for getting through the low RRs quick and easy already. I don't find any of that to be true. I've thoroughly enjoyed playing my toons even at low RR, and it hasn't stopped me from playing the way I'd like, either.
Hell, a few weeks ago I picked up a couple solo kills on my RR3 healer in a task zone and had a couple losing fights mixed in that I still enjoyed because I learned from them and felt that I'd have a better shot next time. In the process, I got a boatload of bonus RPs from for being low RR. The other day, I also respec'd my BD to BA for giggles. I went and helped defend Glen for maybe 40 minutes with him, learned a bit, had some fun even though I died and we lost the keep, and suddenly found myself getting over 2,000 bonus feathers and crapload of bonus RPs for having been there.
If y'all aren't enjoying the game, maybe Magesty is right and it's because you just don't much like MMORPGs. That's not to say that there aren't always things worth improving, but effectively removing progression because you think there's a horde of casual 1-2 hour-a-weekers who would jump into and compete in high level 8v8 as a result and who you think hate playing the rest of the game is frankly ridiculous.
Hell, a few weeks ago I picked up a couple solo kills on my RR3 healer in a task zone and had a couple losing fights mixed in that I still enjoyed because I learned from them and felt that I'd have a better shot next time. In the process, I got a boatload of bonus RPs from for being low RR. The other day, I also respec'd my BD to BA for giggles. I went and helped defend Glen for maybe 40 minutes with him, learned a bit, had some fun even though I died and we lost the keep, and suddenly found myself getting over 2,000 bonus feathers and crapload of bonus RPs for having been there.
If y'all aren't enjoying the game, maybe Magesty is right and it's because you just don't much like MMORPGs. That's not to say that there aren't always things worth improving, but effectively removing progression because you think there's a horde of casual 1-2 hour-a-weekers who would jump into and compete in high level 8v8 as a result and who you think hate playing the rest of the game is frankly ridiculous.
Thu 4 Mar 2021 7:21 PM
by
Centenario
@Omicidi
good contribution, you should participate in more forum discussion!
good contribution, you should participate in more forum discussion!
Fri 5 Mar 2021 4:02 AM
by
Nephamael
Haven't replied since my original post to foster some discussion.
I would like to point out that the basis of this entire suggestion, theoretically, is that players flock to a "fresh start." A planned rr wipe would allow players to re-organize, re-plan, get excited about investing into the server when the playing field is truly even again. I use the 8v8 population during NA time as an example of why my time that I invested in since 2019 has become stale and tedious.
To be clear, I understand the consequences of a RR wipe. It certainly would upset some high rank people that put a lot of time into their character progression. However, I suggest to you that for every high rank person tearing it up in RvR, there are at least 10 who got frustrated with the rank gap and quit. I can off the top of my head name several people that have become bored with Phoenix in its current state and only play when the pvp events are live, otherwise they don't play at all. That is a result of sheer boredom.
If you let players keep their characters, money, rogs, reskins, etc., and literally ONLY wipe the RR, you could announce this in advance and give groups a chance to come back, level their chars to 50 in anticipation of the RR wipe, and hit the ground running on day 1 of the new season.
At the end of the day, it's 2021 and we are playing a 20 year old game. The question shouldn't be how do we keep things going as is? The question should be how do we protect the integrity and legacy of DAoC while still keeping things fresh and exciting. Seasonal DAoC is the answer.
The success of the lvl-playing-field shows exactly what the problem is. - NF is a lot better than OF, but the distances are still big.
Most content needs a significant time to reach action, which is part of classic DaoC, but strongly favors RA-regging and punishes dieing a lot harder than in the event.
Also all the group action in the frontier is much more organized and a lot less wild than the event, which is naturally more punishing to the weaker groups, as noone cleans up their fight, so they get RPs too and don't have to feel so bad about being humiliatingly defeated by another group.
Part of this, especially for 8v8 comes from the big groupsize of DaoC - but changing this is imo not an option. It is a flaw but also a beautiful part of the game, driving teamwork to the limit of what a pug group can achieve.
The Phoenix team already implemented options for fast PvP access for smallmen and 8men with the smallmen and EV teleporters. I don't know what more we can rly do to improve access.
There could be /fair cleanfight for smallmen to maybe grow a 5v5 scene for faster groupbuilding and faster fights than 8v8. - But this bares the risk of seriously harming the 8v8 population in the process or even killing 8v8. - I still think it should be done anyway. And a solo teleporter into direct action needs to be added too, for the populated soloing zones of beno/dc/bledmer, just outside cliprange of the docks or bridges, to make the spawn faster and drive the wildness of the action forward.
If those things are in place we still need to look at low RRs in different content and make sure they all at least do 30k/h pre RR6, better 50k/h or more, at least if they do well.
For the strong performer at 50k/h it would be 10h /played to RR5 and 20h to RR6, so for someone playing 4h a day, that would be 2 1/2 days to RR5 and 5 days to RR6.
For the casual playing 1h per day at 30k/h it would be 17 hours /played to RR5, so 17 days and 33 hours to RR6, so 33 days = a bit more than a month.
This is pretty close to what you do at the event. Of course there would be top performers at 100k/h with a full gvg premade reroll and there would be underperformers at 15k/h - but that is acceptable and there is no real way around it.
- I don't think this would take away the progession aspect of DaoC - it would just keep the door open for new players or rerolled characters/ changing classes in an existing group. - The server has been growing to mid/high rank, as it happens with all daoc servers. And there needs to be an answer for new players/rerolls.
The problem with seasons is, how far down do you want to erase RR? to 1L1? Then after 1 week the RR gap is bigger than right now. - If you just Reset to 5L0 or 6L0 it would make things more interesting, as the beginners can use some tools and the 24/7 groups have to soon face the exponential climb barrier and can't get away to 50 more RApoints all too fast (which is the case if its RR2 vs RR6 after a few days).
Another problem i see is that some classes simply need a lot more RR for their fundamental 8v8 kit than others.
Example1: A primary healertype needs arcane5+ = 10 pts, mcl2+seren1 = 10 pts, raging power1 = 5pts, di1 = 5pts, pr1 = 5pts, purge3 =15 pts =6L0 - without any castspeed, bof or moc - add art5, dex5 and bof3 and we are at 9L5 +acuity2 at 9L7.
Example2: A offtank does reasonably well at det9+purge3 = 4L7 - even if you see cap swingspeed and mop5 str5 as fundamental you still end up at 7L vs 9L.
Example3: A peeltank needs det9 +purge3+dashing3 to be able to just basically do his job - that's already 6L2, no swing speed, no mastery of block, no soldiers barricade, the impact of RR here knows no limit, as dashing5 is double as long as dashing3 and if you could you would grab soldiers5 too.
I think Phoenix choosing 7L0 for the arena was not a choice by accident - it is where most classes have their core tools and some have their first 10 points spent into personal preference (aom5 vs dps, etc).
What i am trying to say is - you need to keep things fast not just to 6L0 but probably further ... at least at a reasonable speedup compared to the current RP/h.
Fri 5 Mar 2021 8:50 AM
by
borodino1812
I think a simple fix would be to take the rps bonus from the event and apply to regular RvR, with a cap for the bonus set at 5L5 or 6L0. That is not very invasive, and would allow both new players and old characters to get up to speed more quickly.
The event would still be popular due to the leveling aspect. However, people would to a lesser degree drop to make a new character with traditional PvE leveling if the rps bonus was applied in regular RvR.
The server is getting filled with high RR players, it may be wise to give a leg up to new players and older mothballed characters.
The event would still be popular due to the leveling aspect. However, people would to a lesser degree drop to make a new character with traditional PvE leveling if the rps bonus was applied in regular RvR.
The server is getting filled with high RR players, it may be wise to give a leg up to new players and older mothballed characters.
Sat 13 Mar 2021 11:34 PM
by
Hector
Since I've posted this thread, two more NA groups stopped playing. The NA gvg list is down to a predictable 4 groups and that's it. We are in a pretty dire situation and I think if one more group quits, it will be the end of NA 8v8. That may not seem like a huge deal to the people that have been posting in this thread and who frequent the forums, but it does have a large ripple effect. Please consider making a drastic change or adding in fresh content to help inspire groups to come back. I have already tried to reach out to them and they have no interest as it currently stands
Sun 14 Mar 2021 4:48 AM
by
joshisanonymous
Hector wrote: ↑Sat 13 Mar 2021 11:34 PMSince I've posted this thread, two more NA groups stopped playing. The NA gvg list is down to a predictable 4 groups and that's it. We are in a pretty dire situation and I think if one more group quits, it will be the end of NA 8v8. That may not seem like a huge deal to the people that have been posting in this thread and who frequent the forums, but it does have a large ripple effect. Please consider making a drastic change or adding in fresh content to help inspire groups to come back. I have already tried to reach out to them and they have no interest as it currently stands
Abandon the insistence on /cleanfights and maybe 8v8 will feel more dynamic, exciting, and hence fun.
In any case, I think you greatly overstate this "large ripple effect". There have been very few 8mans on this server who have any interest in anything outside of their 8v8 circle. The greatest connection they seem to have to anyone else's gameplay is killing solos and smallmans and/or helping enemy realms kill solos and smallmans from their own realm. It's really hard to imagine how these sort of 8mans disappearing would do anything other than make the game more fun for everyone else, frankly.
Sun 14 Mar 2021 1:43 PM
by
Shamissa
The game its getting in the same stage as Daoc Live 3 years ago or so, when they didn’t listen to the player base , and very thing started to go down the hell. I am not sure what the Devs have in mind at this point, if they are gonna fix anything or just Have this god damn events that people dont need anymore lvling toons or if they are just gonna keep buffing Alb and hib and leaving mid behind, I really dont know.
What i know Is not gonna go any further, if they dont do something about the Phoenix soon , i mean very soon. I am not crying i love this game but really it’s getting boring right now....mids bg leader doesn’t have the same motivation to lead anymore, because when we get out there with lets say 40-50 mids, we cant do nothing against 120 albs or even 80 hibs so its really getting bored. I am glad you brought this up @Hector.
Lets hope for better days to come
Xoxo
What i know Is not gonna go any further, if they dont do something about the Phoenix soon , i mean very soon. I am not crying i love this game but really it’s getting boring right now....mids bg leader doesn’t have the same motivation to lead anymore, because when we get out there with lets say 40-50 mids, we cant do nothing against 120 albs or even 80 hibs so its really getting bored. I am glad you brought this up @Hector.
Lets hope for better days to come
Xoxo
Sun 14 Mar 2021 6:23 PM
by
Noashakra
The population is stable since months. Frankly, the gvg list disapearing is good for this server. It's so frustrating to go on a task and don't know who you can jam or not because they are doing their circle jerk duels in the middle of everyone else. A lot of people I know stopped because of the attitude of the gvg EU prime (can't speak for NA).
Sun 14 Mar 2021 7:37 PM
by
Magesty
I think the "ripple effect" is going to be the rest of the circle jerk 8 mans leaving the server and no one else really noticing or caring.
It is a unfortunate that some are losing their preferred style of play, but I can't feel that it is anything but karmic inevitability. 8v8 groups have done nothing but campaign for ways insulate themselves; seeking to avoid and punish the casual filth that might want to play in a manner that runs contrary to their tacit principles. For some puzzling reason the devs have consistently fed into this ideology. Inflating egos, adding systems, and making balance decisions to encourage this exclusionary, and frankly harmful, style of play.
And now they cry out from their insulated planet, high above the rest of us, and no one cares to hear them.
This is what happens when you over-facilitate the separation of an already limited population. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if some of those adding groups were still around after all.
It is a unfortunate that some are losing their preferred style of play, but I can't feel that it is anything but karmic inevitability. 8v8 groups have done nothing but campaign for ways insulate themselves; seeking to avoid and punish the casual filth that might want to play in a manner that runs contrary to their tacit principles. For some puzzling reason the devs have consistently fed into this ideology. Inflating egos, adding systems, and making balance decisions to encourage this exclusionary, and frankly harmful, style of play.
And now they cry out from their insulated planet, high above the rest of us, and no one cares to hear them.
This is what happens when you over-facilitate the separation of an already limited population. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if some of those adding groups were still around after all.
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