Balance Changes #5

Started 28 Feb 2021
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
friar:
- end reduction range reduced from 2000 to 1500
- heal proc chance reduced from 15% to 10%

theurgist:
- earth pet duration remains at 30 seconds even for higher spec levels

warden:
- gets greater heal

shaman:
- gets greater heal

all healing spec lines:
- gets access to the last 2 spell versions instead of only the last version, e. g. at 41 heal you have the 31/32 and 41 greater heals available

level playing field event only changes:
- cc duration above 10s is halved before det / resists, e. g. 1min13s becomes 10 + 63/2 = 41s on which resists and det etc. apply
- resist buffs have no effect
- resist debuffs have no effect other than rupting
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:40 PM by Lundarian
friar:
- end reduction range reduced from 2000 to 1500
- heal proc chance reduced from 15% to 10%

Why? friar needs love, not nerfs. The recent HoT change made them "OK" for 8man

theurgist:
- earth pet duration remains at 30 seconds even for higher spec levels.

Again why? their hitpoints is already low, any AoE damage easily dispatches them, HALF-duration-nerf is uncalled for.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:44 PM by utaz
Lundarian wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:40 PM
friar:
- end reduction range reduced from 2000 to 1500
- heal proc chance reduced from 15% to 10%

Why? friar needs love, not nerfs. The recent HoT change made them "OK" for 8man

theurgist:
- earth pet duration remains at 30 seconds even for higher spec levels.

Again why? their hitpoints is already low, any AoE damage easily dispatches them, HALF-duration-nerf is uncalled for.

Why? Someone cried that the heal proc is too strong and here we go again.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:45 PM by Tereos
wow another alb nerf GG....
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:48 PM by Griselda
Earth pets 30 sec? Damn this is getting closer and closer to live server adventurism... fixing what doesnt need fixing... when will we see desease for every class?
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:48 PM by Beeblebrox
Would rather you put friar back to the way they were with useless hot and endo reduction only for ourselves. Is that an option?

In the beginning it was suggested the problem with friar was they were too easy to lock down and keep them from casting. That was never addressed.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:51 PM by Babajaga
WHAT ABOUT ARCHERS ?? you will finally doing something to balance the range nerf into melee ? FFS
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:59 PM by Razur Ur
Plz remove all stats debuffs from all Caster!!!
Sun 28 Feb 2021 1:10 PM by ulf
Remove spell triple debuff resists too
Sun 28 Feb 2021 1:24 PM by Bry
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:29 PM
friar:
- end reduction range reduced from 2000 to 1500
- heal proc chance reduced from 15% to 10%

Thank you! The double merc meta is a bit too strong. This will help to some degree, but I fear the group wide endo reduction is still too strong.

theurgist:
- earth pet duration remains at 30 seconds even for higher spec levels

Also thank you. The earth pet run speed, theurgist 2k range, and high power effeciency are what make theurgists cancer to play against. The 30s earth pet is something, but may not help with the dynamics of a fight. Theurgists can still put out 40+ pets for 5+ minutes. A caster group fighting an alb group only gets to pve clear pets for the majority of the fight. It’s boring, frustrating, and one dimensional. Theurgist can play very safe and put out way too much pressure.

warden:
- gets greater heal

Thank you. About time the most underpowered class in the game gets something.

shaman:
- gets greater heal

Also good, although it may go unused due to spec constraints.

all healing spec lines:
- gets access to the last 2 spell versions instead of only the last version, e. g. at 41 heal you have the 31/32 and 41 greater heals available

Nice.

level playing field event only changes:
- cc duration above 10s is halved before det / resists, e. g. 1min13s becomes 10 + 63/2 = 41s on which resists and det etc. apply
- resist buffs have no effect
- resist debuffs have no effect other than rupting
Sun 28 Feb 2021 1:26 PM by Rokko
Lol nerf that albs to hell!

And ward needs bigger heal? Every class from hib can heal. That's enough!

U always play a Albtanker grp vs a Hibtanker grp???
Sun 28 Feb 2021 1:26 PM by Noashakra
Tereos wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:45 PM
wow another alb nerf GG....

Wow another stupid comment. The friar got a buff, and this buff was adjusted.
Alb has the best tanker setup atm since the last buff, still has the best mage setup, and you cry about balancing
Sun 28 Feb 2021 1:40 PM by Tereos
me? u cry everywhere..
Sun 28 Feb 2021 1:58 PM by Enyore
Already second page of non-stop crying.

These changes are not that bad, its calibration or balancing, not real nerfs.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:13 PM by Tyrlaan
Tereos wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:45 PM
wow another alb nerf GG....

And buff to Wardens. They can use quicker heals now. Even better now that highlevel Earth pets spend half their lifetime just getting there.

And after giving different resist debuff delves to the realms for whatever reason (with Hib sporting 3 debuff DD casters now with 50% resist debuffs, in the realm which can consistently have the highest resist buffs too) I would at least have expected to see triple resist buffs as well and at a much lower spell level for Shamans and Healers/Clerics/Druids for being 1.0x classes.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:13 PM by Beeblebrox
Enyore wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 1:58 PM
Already second page of non-stop crying.

These changes are not that bad, its calibration or balancing, not real nerfs.

True nerfs arent that bad if a friar is in a group. For solo friar, however, all the changes so far is a net nerf.

Endo reduction from 25% to 19%. Side snare nerf. Hot changes doesnt help much if at all solo. Now nerf to heal proc.

Of course, who cares if your not a solo friar? Can't be many of those.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:14 PM by utaz
Do we even know who are the council members and their experience in daoc?
I believe their CV's need to be reviewed
Also does everyone here understand the realm that has most population and most organisation will likely be dominant in every aspect?
And why arent we nerfing disease if there's so much concern about balance?
3 minute disease is ok?
Aassasins barely touch someone and they vanish then the target is stuck with disease for 2+ minutes and if purged there's no immunity?
Removing core mechanics from certain classes in one realm but not the same spell in the other realm? Minstrel/Ment charm...
Can we expect any professionalism soon?
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:23 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Still waiting to see what these sweeping Hib tank group changes that were mentioned months ago are...
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:27 PM by Maca
I see there still on that alb nerf kick. I’m surprised they still let stealth use weapons.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:37 PM by gotwqqd
Curious
Was theurgist earth pet a huge issue before the changes that brought about the new tank group norm?
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:48 PM by gruenesschaf
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:37 PM
Curious
Was theurgist earth pet a huge issue before the changes that brought about the new tank group norm?

Alb tanker just wasn't played and alb caster is strong enough to go without a theurgist, maybe even stronger without.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:54 PM by gruenesschaf
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:23 PM
Still waiting to see what these sweeping Hib tank group changes that were mentioned months ago are...

Not really needed anymore, after the alb tanker buffs, mid caster/hybrid buffs and alb caster nerfs those 4 setups are all quite strong. The outlier currently are alb tanker which these changes seek to address, maybe mid caster/hybrid in terms of blap potential with skald + thane + bd instants after debuff and hib casters due to a general meh feeling.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 3:00 PM by Morann
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:29 PM
friar:
- end reduction range reduced from 2000 to 1500
- heal proc chance reduced from 15% to 10%
ok. alb tanker to high rewarding even for lower skill players.

theurgist:
- earth pet duration remains at 30 seconds even for higher spec levels
I understand the intention to nerv alb tanker. But that's again nerving alb hybrid and alb casters with theu, 3 body casters.
30 sec is too much of a nerv!
Theu is what made alb hybrid strong - beside high utility of sorc and cab. Where as mid casters has 2 valuable healers.

Moc wont be an option anymore. My suggestion: earthlords 45 sec, all pets below 30 sec.

warden:
- gets greater heal
-> great that hib hybrid should now defenitely be legit: but warden even before was already OP.

shaman:
- gets greater heal

all healing spec lines:
- gets access to the last 2 spell versions instead of only the last version, e. g. at 41 heal you have the 31/32 and 41 greater heals available
nice!

level playing field event only changes:
- cc duration above 10s is halved before det / resists, e. g. 1min13s becomes 10 + 63/2 = 41s on which resists and det etc. apply
- resist buffs have no effect
- resist debuffs have no effect other than rupting
Sun 28 Feb 2021 3:17 PM by Shamissa
albs need more nerf the wiz dmg are insane compared to runemaster and eldritch, but then again they didnt get touched only friars and theugist got a small nerf and albs are crying like babies omg c’mon people , that way we will never have a balanced game if you all gonna gonna cry over a single touch of nerf. Mids been nerfed way much than albs over and over but they still there. Just grow up and learn how to play as it is or we will never have a balanced game. I mean this inst balanced yet but at least they are trying.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 3:41 PM by boho
Alb and Mid tears are present and accounted for. No Hib tears yet though. A little worrying...
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:06 PM by Gohanssj
Why change stuff just for the event? No resist buffs or debuffs and reduced cc? Whats the purpose? Casters will be utterly useless vs det now, no dmg and no control..... just going to be a million tanks going at it, how fun.


This server is becoming a joke, adding changes no one wants or is asking for, balanacing and rebalancinf and just making it worse and worse. Jist admit you were wrong on some of it and roll the changes back, stop tweaking your own balances and just spiraling down a hole of bullshit before this ends up like live.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:20 PM by sffan15
@Lendarian these two things are/were out of balance in 8v8, that's why. These are very small changes, though, which is a good approach. They likely won't have enough impact to balance out Alb which is absolutely, 100% the strongest realm for 8v8 without a shadow of a doubt. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either blind, deaf, dumb, or some combination therein. I applaud the devs for finally taking a stab at balancing alb out (vs. accidentally over-buffing alb, which is what has been done in previous balance changes).

Lundarian wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:40 PM
friar:
- end reduction range reduced from 2000 to 1500
- heal proc chance reduced from 15% to 10%

Why? friar needs love, not nerfs. The recent HoT change made them "OK" for 8man

theurgist:
- earth pet duration remains at 30 seconds even for higher spec levels.

Again why? their hitpoints is already low, any AoE damage easily dispatches them, HALF-duration-nerf is uncalled for.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:27 PM by sffan15
100% agree that disease duration makes zero sense. Drop disease duration to 1min max, nothing gets effected except for an insane assassin advantage over soloers (disease, hide, stalk your opponent for as long as necessary to heal, then engage an already-diseased target who can't heal at any reasonable rate, even by sitting)

utaz wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:14 PM
Do we even know who are the council members and their experience in daoc?
I believe their CV's need to be reviewed
Also does everyone here understand the realm that has most population and most organisation will likely be dominant in every aspect?
And why arent we nerfing disease if there's so much concern about balance?
3 minute disease is ok?
Aassasins barely touch someone and they vanish then the target is stuck with disease for 2+ minutes and if purged there's no immunity?
Removing core mechanics from certain classes in one realm but not the same spell in the other realm? Minstrel/Ment charm...
Can we expect any professionalism soon?
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:33 PM by sffan15
You're missing the point entirely. The worst thing about the event, for a majority of the server, is the massive imbalance between pre-made groups and /autogroup groups. Premade groups tend to have all 6 resists, often a debuff train, not to mention always have spec buffs, cc, speed, etc. which is a huge advantage over /autogroups which rarely have all 6 resists, seldom even have 3 resists, often have no specs, no speed, minimal cc.

Put on your thinking cap before you get upset at this free server; they're trying their best. Don't be a child (unless you are a child, then just keep doing you boo).

Gohanssj wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:06 PM
Why change stuff just for the event? No resist buffs or debuffs and reduced cc? Whats the purpose? Casters will be utterly useless vs det now, no dmg and no control..... just going to be a million tanks going at it, how fun.


This server is becoming a joke, adding changes no one wants or is asking for, balanacing and rebalancinf and just making it worse and worse. Jist admit you were wrong on some of it and roll the changes back, stop tweaking your own balances and just spiraling down a hole of bullshit before this ends up like live.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:38 PM by gotwqqd
sffan15 wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:33 PM
You're missing the point entirely. The worst thing about the event, for a majority of the server, is the massive imbalance between pre-made groups and /autogroup groups. Premade groups tend to have all 6 resists, often a debuff train, not to mention always have spec buffs, cc, speed, etc. which is a huge advantage over /autogroups which rarely have all 6 resists, seldom even have 3 resists, often have no specs, no speed, minimal cc.

Put on your thinking cap before you get upset at this free server; they're trying their best. Don't be a child (unless you are a child, then just keep doing you boo).

Gohanssj wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:06 PM
Why change stuff just for the event? No resist buffs or debuffs and reduced cc? Whats the purpose? Casters will be utterly useless vs det now, no dmg and no control..... just going to be a million tanks going at it, how fun.


This server is becoming a joke, adding changes no one wants or is asking for, balanacing and rebalancinf and just making it worse and worse. Jist admit you were wrong on some of it and roll the changes back, stop tweaking your own balances and just spiraling down a hole of bullshit before this ends up like live.
I think the healer in safe area should cast 50% combo pot buffs that last until dead
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:44 PM by Tyrlaan
Gohanssj wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:06 PM
Why change stuff just for the event? No resist buffs or debuffs and reduced cc? Whats the purpose? Casters will be utterly useless vs det now, no dmg and no control..... just going to be a million tanks going at it, how fun.

And yet, at any time /serverinfo will have a list of tanks at the bottom. At least in the event (which is a zerg fest anyway) they should be able to reach their targets to tag them (which is ultra easy on casters and archers, mind you) considering you can´t really get a template in there (and high Determination or AoM only late into the event) and are often facing multi-realm high-redundancy-CC premades.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 5:15 PM by Kaldoris
Anyway to get an event timer info ? Now that there will be 6 weeks between 2, it would be nice to have somewhere to get the info besides the letter post hidden in the announcement section.

Cause there should be one those days.

Thanks for warden love, all love is welcome. Any kind of proc heal would be nice too
Sun 28 Feb 2021 5:15 PM by Kaldoris
Anyway to get an event timer info ? Now that there will be 6 weeks between 2, it would be nice to have somewhere to get the info besides the letter post hidden in the announcement section.

Cause there should be one those days.

Thanks for warden love, all love is welcome. Any kind of proc heal would be nice too
Sun 28 Feb 2021 6:05 PM by Simon73
I use a warden, and to be honest this new heal is useless.

I heal around 440hp with standard heal lvl 42.
I don't need a new heal that consumes much faster my mana for 100hp more, and the second heal that probably heals much less than my actual cast.
Group heal will be untouched.

So now i will heal a bit more using much more mana, and healing less with a minor consume. No need.

Warden will remain the most booring class of the server
Sun 28 Feb 2021 6:08 PM by Marneux
utaz wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:14 PM
Do we even know who are the council members and their experience in daoc?
I believe their CV's need to be reviewed


I guess the same council as on live, with those retarded changes.
------------------

My opinion:
I don't think it was necessary to add an extra heal to a realm with currently 4+ healers in most setups.

That Theur nerf is just massive, you just totally destroyed earth line, pets are 1shotable currently and theur doesn't event have the DD in earth line, so don't see the point in going earth anymore, probably time to get back on wind theurgist and assist.

Friar "balance" I didn't have the feeling it was so OP to nerf those buffs. You already nerfed his side snare and now the proc rate and that end reduction range. But I can be ok with that change.

Anyways, if you keep on the track of massive nerfs, maybe think about the situation of mentalist which is the most broke caster right now.

Maybe is time to add a GRP cure disease at some point in reju spec.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 7:00 PM by jonny290
Was excited to play a friar up. Thanks for freeing up my week to do other things.

resist changes are shocking and will result in people learning how to play a class incorrectly and then getting rocked in FZ, meanwhile absolutely zero attention paid to the thing most players were actually grousing about, which is premade vs autogroup imbalance.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 7:19 PM by easytoremember
utaz wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:14 PM
Do we even know who are the council members and their experience in daoc?
I believe their CV's need to be reviewed
Also does everyone here understand the realm that has most population and most organisation will likely be dominant in every aspect?
And why arent we nerfing disease if there's so much concern about balance?
3 minute disease is ok?
Aassasins barely touch someone and they vanish then the target is stuck with disease for 2+ minutes and if purged there's no immunity?
Removing core mechanics from certain classes in one realm but not the same spell in the other realm? Minstrel/Ment charm...
Can we expect any professionalism soon?
your idea of professionalism is warped

unprofessional: sometimes lets you know your input is dumb and it will be disregarded
professional: always thanks you for your worthless input and assures it will (not) be considered


You might be looking for objectivity, which too would be misapplied here since having every realm be a copy of the other would be bland. With respect to resist debuff delves you got Sorc Caba Necro Cleric Theurg(air) all in one debuff
Sun 28 Feb 2021 8:22 PM by jonny290
so does this make tanker + sight necro the FOTM setup this week? My crystal ball sees a bunch of people that forgot to take off their green gear getting 1-rounded
Sun 28 Feb 2021 8:29 PM by Jingo NZ
That earth pet change is a real blow for pve and solo theurg. A 50% gutting.

You could instead give more counter play options.

What about slightly reducing the cast time of the confusion spell, or giving it to a second class per realm.
Could even give it a tiny aoe radius to kill more than 1 pet in a stack.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 8:44 PM by sffan15
Good idea imo

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:38 PM
sffan15 wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:33 PM
You're missing the point entirely. The worst thing about the event, for a majority of the server, is the massive imbalance between pre-made groups and /autogroup groups. Premade groups tend to have all 6 resists, often a debuff train, not to mention always have spec buffs, cc, speed, etc. which is a huge advantage over /autogroups which rarely have all 6 resists, seldom even have 3 resists, often have no specs, no speed, minimal cc.

Put on your thinking cap before you get upset at this free server; they're trying their best. Don't be a child (unless you are a child, then just keep doing you boo).

Gohanssj wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:06 PM
Why change stuff just for the event? No resist buffs or debuffs and reduced cc? Whats the purpose? Casters will be utterly useless vs det now, no dmg and no control..... just going to be a million tanks going at it, how fun.


This server is becoming a joke, adding changes no one wants or is asking for, balanacing and rebalancinf and just making it worse and worse. Jist admit you were wrong on some of it and roll the changes back, stop tweaking your own balances and just spiraling down a hole of bullshit before this ends up like live.
I think the healer in safe area should cast 50% combo pot buffs that last until dead
Sun 28 Feb 2021 8:46 PM by sffan15
Very solid idea here. Confuse cast time is already too slow; make it a bit faster and it helps vs theurgs but doesn't nerf them.

Jingo NZ wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 8:29 PM
That earth pet change is a real blow for pve and solo theurg. A 50% gutting.

You could instead give more counter play options.

What about slightly reducing the cast time of the confusion spell, or giving it to a second class per realm.
Could even give it a tiny aoe radius to kill more than 1 pet in a stack.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 9:02 PM by Tyrlaan
Jingo NZ wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 8:29 PM
That earth pet change is a real blow for pve and solo theurg. A 50% gutting.

You could instead give more counter play options.

What about slightly reducing the cast time of the confusion spell, or giving it to a second class per realm.
Could even give it a tiny aoe radius to kill more than 1 pet in a stack.

Especially since they acknowledged that Theurgists are far from 1st or 2nd choice in Alb caster groups. Or in zergs. Single target damage, no debuffs or CC worth mentioning. Yay. So let´s nerf their pets just because. The only area where they shine because they still have that interrupt role niche in hybrid/tank groups. Because we all know 8v8 is DAoC. So what´s getting played in the other 8mans, any more candidates for the gutter? What´s the point of the class, PvE?

I remember when live had to buff these pets (up from 20 sec duration) considerably so they actually make a difference (since they spend quite some time of their duration running, are only a very delayed but constant interrupt that can be braced for, hit into PBT, guard or defenses, get reduced by MoC and can be confused or killed).
Sun 28 Feb 2021 9:21 PM by Tyrlaan
Simon73 wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 6:05 PM
I use a warden, and to be honest this new heal is useless.

I heal around 440hp with standard heal lvl 42.
I don't need a new heal that consumes much faster my mana for 100hp more, and the second heal that probably heals much less than my actual cast.
Group heal will be untouched.

So now i will heal a bit more using much more mana, and healing less with a minor consume. No need.

If you see no use for a stronger heal with <1sec cast time (albeit a higher power cost), your loss. Others will find use for it.

I guess the difference is less noticeable if you´re running in a group where 6 out of 8 can heal so that there´s always a couple uninterrupted to throw out more efficient heals.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 9:25 PM by Shadowblade1
Gohanssj wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 4:06 PM
Why change stuff just for the event? No resist buffs or debuffs and reduced cc? Whats the purpose? Casters will be utterly useless vs det now, no dmg and no control..... just going to be a million tanks going at it, how fun.

This is just within the EVENT ZONE.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 10:25 PM by ExcretusMaximus
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:54 PM
Not really needed anymore, after the alb tanker buffs, mid caster/hybrid buffs and alb caster nerfs those 4 setups are all quite strong. The outlier currently are alb tanker which these changes seek to address, maybe mid caster/hybrid in terms of blap potential with skald + thane + bd instants after debuff and hib casters due to a general meh feeling.

Cool.

Thanks for the update.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 10:50 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Simon73 wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 6:05 PM
I use a warden, and to be honest this new heal is useless.

I heal around 440hp with standard heal lvl 42.
I don't need a new heal that consumes much faster my mana for 100hp more, and the second heal that probably heals much less than my actual cast.
Group heal will be untouched.

So now i will heal a bit more using much more mana, and healing less with a minor consume. No need.

Warden will remain the most booring class of the server

While Wardens are indeed boring, you're acting as if slow steady heals are fight winners, when they're win contributors; spike healing against spike damage is what wins fights, and Majors can't give you that, Greaters can.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 11:27 PM by inter
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:54 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:23 PM
Still waiting to see what these sweeping Hib tank group changes that were mentioned months ago are...

Not really needed anymore, after the alb tanker buffs, mid caster/hybrid buffs and alb caster nerfs those 4 setups are all quite strong. The outlier currently are alb tanker which these changes seek to address, maybe mid caster/hybrid in terms of blap potential with skald + thane + bd instants after debuff and hib casters due to a general meh feeling.

We'll see if these changes help, they're a step in the right direction I think. There aren't many mid caster grps that can actually play to the setups potential, meanwhile every PUG that formed alb tanker was able to have decent success. I don't think the setups are quite comparable in terms of general strength, as someone who plays both setups.
Sun 28 Feb 2021 11:48 PM by Jingo NZ
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:29 PM
level playing field event only changes:
- cc duration above 10s is halved before det / resists, e. g. 1min13s becomes 10 + 63/2 = 41s on which resists and det etc. apply
- resist buffs have no effect
- resist debuffs have no effect other than rupting

These event only changes are great. Especially the CC reduction.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 12:06 AM by boomber
I think the event only changes will help vs premades, since all premades have resist buffs, usually run the caster assist debuff nuke setup, and have cc.

premades will obviously still have the advantage but I think these changes will help
Mon 1 Mar 2021 1:27 AM by Cruella
Just put a buff npc in the event zone which gives you the lesser combined forces buffs with lvl10 and the better one with lvl30 like the pots
would work in the normal zones.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 1:45 AM by Takii
Were debuff trains really that dominant in the event? I made it to 49 but never 50, so maybe it was bad there, but it wasn't really a problem 1-49 in my experience.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 4:20 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Wait until you start running into Bard/Cleric/Necro/Savage/Savage groups and then you'll wish they hadn't done away with resist debuffs.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 6:56 AM by borodino1812
The earth nerf seems excessive. 45 seconds would seem more appropriate. Earth has very little going for it in RvR, bar the pet.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 7:45 AM by Blitze
I not a fan of Friar nerfs... they are not over performing as a class at all.
Apparently Alb tanker 8man is over-performing...

so why nerf friar in all facets of the game... ?

Can solo friars get a self 25%end redux and a self healproc at the 15% chance??


Or lower the end proc buff-pot to 2... that makes alb tankers suffer and buffs paladins which are the least popular class in the server.

Theurg earth nerf seems heavy handed
Warden greater heal in no way fixes the main problem: fact that the class is unbelievably boring.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 8:40 AM by Ulio ah ah
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:29 PM
theurgist:
- earth pet duration remains at 30 seconds even for higher spec levels

Why?
Mon 1 Mar 2021 8:54 AM by byron
I would not comment or asking anything, it seems a lot of feedbacks have no taken in consideration. But I have just a curiosity about RAs, tanks vs casters :

Why AoM is at max 20% when a caster had the debuff that bring your resistences to 0% (or below) while PD is at max 30% when your melee resists are always 26% ? Don't want to argue which value is correct but at least I think the two RA should have the same values (or AoM should be more powerful than PD). Is there something that I'm not taking in consideration about these two RAs balance ?
Mon 1 Mar 2021 9:58 AM by Sepplord
they tested AOM at 30% and it became too strong, so they changed it back...
So, on paper they agreed with your thought, but when it was put into the game it became too strong, so they weakened it again.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 10:05 AM by byron
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Mar 2021 9:58 AM
they tested AOM at 30% and it became too strong, so they changed it back...
So, on paper they agreed with your thought, but when it was put into the game it became too strong, so they weakened it again.

is not PD at 30% too strong too ? Especially when there is not any melee resist debuff in the game. Just asking
Mon 1 Mar 2021 10:16 AM by Sepplord
Apparently not, since the dominating setup in the 8vs8 events seem to be tankgroups...at least that's what i am hearing, i don't play them. Paperdaoc VS real testing

And currently they are primarily focussing on balancing everything around 8vs8
Mon 1 Mar 2021 12:37 PM by Ele
byron wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Mar 2021 10:05 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Mar 2021 9:58 AM
they tested AOM at 30% and it became too strong, so they changed it back...
So, on paper they agreed with your thought, but when it was put into the game it became too strong, so they weakened it again.

is not PD at 30% too strong too ? Especially when there is not any melee resist debuff in the game. Just asking
30% PD might be too strong if casters would run it. The difference is that especially light tanks don't have active RA's like casters they need to spec to be useful in groups (MCL 1/2, RP, Ichor, Conc, MoC, BAoD) and only two passives they need to boost for dmg (AugStr & MoPain, three if you take MoArms into account), whilst casters need five passives to boost their dmg/cast speed (AugDex, AugAcu, MoArt, WP, MoM) and in many cases some lvl of Serenity/MoF. This results in an RR8 light tank likely having AoM5+, whilst an RR8 Caster most likely having PD 0.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 1:26 PM by byron
Ele wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Mar 2021 12:37 PM
30% PD might be too strong if casters would run it. The difference is that especially light tanks don't have active RA's like casters they need to spec to be useful in groups (MCL 1/2, RP, Ichor, Conc, MoC, BAoD) and only two passives they need to boost for dmg (AugStr & MoPain, three if you take MoArms into account), whilst casters need five passives to boost their dmg/cast speed (AugDex, AugAcu, MoArt, WP, MoM) and in many cases some lvl of Serenity/MoF. This results in an RR8 light tank likely having AoM5+, whilst an RR8 Caster most likely having PD 0.

uhmm, I'm not so much agree with this. Caster has the debuff train that burst his damage a lot since R1L1 while light tanks have their damage constant without any other mate can can boost that with any debuff. A light tank needs to train also determination 9 and Purge 3 while a caster, after purge, can focus on damage RAs and/or PD. It means that light tanks needs to be 8L1 to have Det9, Purge 3 and AoM 9 that now is 20% as secondary resist (AoM is a secondary resist so it means 20% of a resist that is already near to 0% after the debuff if there is any casted resist in place) . So, to boost his damage, a light tank needs to wait forever (caster can combine a lot of RAs for damage also training them at low level to have all of them combined together). For example a light tank needs to be 8L8 to have all the RAs described above plus master of Pain 4 (for only +9% critics)

PS: Since the AoM effect has been reduced for a while now , it would be nice to have a free realm respec for whom don't want it anymore with the current values.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 1:46 PM by Noashakra
You don't need a lot of damage RA as a tank group vs caster group, of course it's better, but the aim is to keep everyone interupted and survive until when you kill all the mages 1vs1 (oversimplification of course).
Mon 1 Mar 2021 2:00 PM by Ele
byron wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Mar 2021 1:26 PM
uhmm, I'm not so much agree with this. Caster has the debuff train that burst his damage a lot since R1L1 while light tanks have their damage constant without any other mate can can boost that with any debuff. A light tank needs to train also determination 9 and Purge 3 while a caster, after purge, can focus on damage RAs and/or PD. It means that light tanks needs to be 8L1 to have Det9, Purge 3 and AoM 9 that now is 20% as secondary resist (AoM is a secondary resist so it means 20% of a resist that is already near to 0% after the debuff if there is any casted resist in place) . So, to boost his damage, a light tank needs to wait forever (caster can combine a lot of RAs for damage also training them at low level to have all of them combined together). For example a light tank needs to be 8L8 to have all the RAs described above plus master of Pain 4 (for only +9% critics)

PS: Since the AoM effect has been reduced for a while now , it would be nice to have a free realm respec for whom don't want it anymore with the current values.

First, I didn't speak about AoM 9, but AoM 5, which already is a good invest/return. Second, the topic was AoM/PD in comparison, not debuff trains/dmg. For reference, here is a link to a fairly balanced Eld build at RR8:
https://playphoenix.online/charplan/?class=Eldritch&level=50&realmRank=70&view=ras&r202=5&r205=3&r217=4&r224=3&r227=1&r238=1&r240=2&r242=3&r260=1&r1023=5
Eld has no "big" actives like BAoD, so the passives are especially high for his RR. Ench, Sorc, Theu, BD, SM will spec some high cost actives, resulting in fewer points to spend on the passives. You could think about spending a few points into PD now, but I think most will invest into a higher lvl of MoC or higher passives,
Regarding Debuff Trains: Yes, they are strong, but you realize that without a debuff applied, you'd nuke for about 250 dmg at best, so your only chance to kill anything in a reasonable timespan is nuking on a debuff. And if you encounter melees knowing that they run a high lvl of AoM, you won't even pick them as target, because it is unlikely to kill him, even with "only" 20% of AoM.
And of course you can mix/match lower levels as a melee either:
https://playphoenix.online/charplan/?class=Savage&level=50&realmRank=70&view=ras&r201=2&r202=1&r211=6&r216=5&r226=9&r239=1&r242=3

Back to the matter at hand: Casters usually don't spec PD unless pretty high RR (8+), whilst light tanks spec its counterpart earlier, and even then, it is a niche pick for casters.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 2:41 PM by sav
Why are you posting those changes upfront in "Get Involved" if all you do is roll out the next day anyway?!
Mon 1 Mar 2021 5:15 PM by Tyrlaan
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Mar 2021 8:40 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:29 PM
theurgist:
- earth pet duration remains at 30 seconds even for higher spec levels

Why?

To have /serverinfo show single-digit numbers of Theurgists. Duh. But fear not, another Mentalist buff is on the way.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 5:54 PM by Jingo NZ
Theu earth pet change very heavy handed. Earth spec line pretty miserly without much going for it. Some different nuanced Theu changes posted as suggestions further up in this thread.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 7:52 PM by Ulio ah ah
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Mar 2021 5:15 PM
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Mar 2021 8:40 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 12:29 PM
theurgist:
- earth pet duration remains at 30 seconds even for higher spec levels

Why?

To have /serverinfo show single-digit numbers of Theurgists. Duh. But fear not, another Mentalist buff is on the way.

this thing is ridiculous.
I can understand 45 seconds, 30 seconds is absurd.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 7:55 PM by ExcretusMaximus
byron wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Mar 2021 8:54 AM
Why AoM is at max 20% when a caster had the debuff that bring your resistences to 0% (or below) while PD is at max 30% when your melee resists are always 26% ? Don't want to argue which value is correct but at least I think the two RA should have the same values (or AoM should be more powerful than PD). Is there something that I'm not taking in consideration about these two RAs balance ?

You can't interrupt a melee by sneezing on him.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 11:06 PM by soremir
Can you just make a permanent 8v8 arena? And all the 8-mans can go fight each other there? And you can make all these changes apply only to them there?

Because all this obsessive balancing around 8v8 only is affecting all other facets of the game. These changes also affect the solo, small-men, and BGs too. All these friar changes are actually a consequential nerf for solo friars for example, regardless of how much you may think 8v8 friars need to be balanced (saw Blitze in here beat me to it). And I had an Earth Theurg that I never 8-manned with (only the BG) - no longer of course!

Also, have asked before, but still would love to know which players are on this council of madness.
Tue 2 Mar 2021 4:07 AM by Nephamael
Could we try a 40 or 45s earthpet duration at 18% less Earthlord HP?

Maybe for the next arena event?


(the idea is that perfectly stacked earthlords die by red aoes in 1 hit and earthlords generally dieing in 1 hit by any 2h melee style, so the clearing of earthlords gets easier and not clearing them stays punishing, while yellow aoes still need 2 hits to clear a stack)
Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:40 AM by Jingo NZ
Try 60 sec pet with the low hp if needed. There are other suggestions in thread to help with pet clear counter play without whacking the pve and solo /casual appeal of earth theurg.
Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:40 AM by Simon73
tbh last night during event theurg pets where op as usual
Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:52 AM by borodino1812
I think it is unfortunate that we seem to have moved to a situation where most of the balancing is happen in lieu of 8v8. It is particularly unfortunate since this is not the game mode that the majority of the playerbase enjoy.

The result is that we get changes that seem incomprehensible to the majority of the players, whilst I am sure, makes sense in an 8v8 environment. I would encourage a rethink around this. The arena offers an opportunity to balance for that environment alone. I hope the devs will explore that opportunity further, while leaving the BG community unaffected.
Tue 2 Mar 2021 10:03 AM by Sepplord
they might not be the majority, but they probably have the strongest lobby
Tue 2 Mar 2021 11:12 AM by Simon73
Last night quite a lot of groups in Arena where made just for arena.
I don't think they can be considered normal setups in a roaming 8man or Gvg groups.

Last night it was just RP farming.
Tue 2 Mar 2021 5:49 PM by Tyrlaan
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 10:03 AM
they might not be the majority, but they probably have the strongest lobby

Which is quite unfortunate. If the casual people leave one after another because their toon gets nerfed for no comprehensible reason, this server will be dead. Crickets.

While nobody would actually care much if the 8v1 /gvg folks were missing. Many would even rejoice.
Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:25 PM by Nephamael
While nobody would actually care much if the 8v1 /gvg folks were missing. Many would even rejoice.

The server would be lacking the most beautiful content of DaoC without 8v8 - and if theurg earthpets don't get balanced it would mean 8v8 would probably die because of imbalance.

Also don't underrate how much other content 8v8-players generate on this server!


Let the Phoenix team work this out - the best conslusion would leave everyone happy in all contents.

I do not oppose testing 60s at 18% less earthpet HP (or an even further reduction due to the long duration) btw. The main concern about the 60s duration is the overachieving impact of theurg moc in comparison to any other classes moc in the game.

Another idea would be going for the 40 or 45s duration at 18% less pet HP but giving theurgpets the full 60s duration in PvE instances.
Tue 2 Mar 2021 10:15 PM by Tyrlaan
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:25 PM
While nobody would actually care much if the 8v1 /gvg folks were missing. Many would even rejoice.

The server would be lacking the most beautiful content of DaoC without 8v8 - and if theurg earthpets don't get balanced it would mean 8v8 would probably die because of imbalance.

Earth pets and Theurgists were perfectly fine for years.
Wed 3 Mar 2021 1:21 PM by DJ2000
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 10:15 PM
Earth pets and Theurgists were perfectly fine for years.
Which years on which Server are you counting?
It can't be phoenix, as both have received several adjustments since 2018 on phoenix.
Wed 3 Mar 2021 4:04 PM by Takeahnase
borodino1812 wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:52 AM
I think it is unfortunate that we seem to have moved to a situation where most of the balancing is happen in lieu of 8v8. It is particularly unfortunate since this is not the game mode that the majority of the playerbase enjoy.

The result is that we get changes that seem incomprehensible to the majority of the players, whilst I am sure, makes sense in an 8v8 environment. I would encourage a rethink around this. The arena offers an opportunity to balance for that environment alone. I hope the devs will explore that opportunity further, while leaving the BG community unaffected.

I can't up this post enough. It seems that every member of this 'council' was chosen because of their orientation towards 8v8 play. I suppose they were chosen in this way because 8v8 players have 'mastered their class', so they automatically come with a full understand of how the entire game works.

The unfortunate truth is that the majority of the population on this server are not 8v8 players; they're people that play primarily in the bg. When the devs make class balancing changes based on the input from these few 'l33t' players, the effects are felt most heavily in the bg play.

@the devs: if you insist on having this council influence your class balancing decisions, at least add a few (or several) people that primarily play in the bg. You need their input as well; believe it or not, there are some very experienced players in the bg's.

"
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:48 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:37 PM
Curious
Was theurgist earth pet a huge issue before the changes that brought about the new tank group norm?

Alb tanker just wasn't played and alb caster is strong enough to go without a theurgist, maybe even stronger without.
"

I also think it's preposterous that these class balance changes are meant to influence certain 8v8 group setups; gutting a core component of a spec line for a class that is hardly played, all so that you can encourage people to run full tank setups on alb, is a bit insulting to the people that play that class.

Furthermore, If players of certain 8 man groups have trouble killing certain group setups, then maybe those players should just play better, or try a different group setup. Philosopher Kingz did just fine with their 4 man setup because they played well together.
Wed 3 Mar 2021 4:14 PM by Sepplord
they definitely played well, but they also had an heavy RR advantage over the general population which exacerbated their superiority
Wed 3 Mar 2021 5:13 PM by ExcretusMaximus
PK also had an "uncanny" ability to always hit every single fight they hit from the rear and side.
Wed 3 Mar 2021 5:14 PM by Tyrlaan
Takeahnase wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Mar 2021 4:04 PM
I also think it's preposterous that these class balance changes are meant to influence certain 8v8 group setups; gutting a core component of a spec line for a class that is hardly played, all so that you can encourage people to run full tank setups on alb, is a bit insulting to the people that play that class.

Furthermore, If players of certain 8 man groups have trouble killing certain group setups, then maybe those players should just play better, or try a different group setup. Philosopher Kingz did just fine with their 4 man setup because they played well together.

This.

Dealing with Theurgist pets (or the Theurgist himself) isn´t anything new by any means. 8mans on all servers for most of DAoC´s lifetime had to include ways to deal with it. And there are plenty of ways to brace for something that still has to spend 5-10 seconds to get to the target to start interrupting - on the other hand you need lots of interrupts to keep 4+ Hib heal classes busy who in return just instant rupt at 2000 range 2x every 5 seconds. Maybe these groups just have to get good?

Now they wanted to push the Alb tanker meta but when it went overboard, they nerf the one class that has not much of a role outside? (They used to be kinda okay in a BG when earth pets would still deal good damage to paper doors but that was nerfed already.) Just because some people claim the Theurgist is suddenly overpowered? Where have you been all those years?
Thu 4 Mar 2021 1:33 PM by mattymc
I think it's less about punishing this or that and more about a philosophy of how this Balance series has been approached...for example....this reply to a random statement:

Not really needed anymore, after the alb tanker buffs, mid caster/hybrid buffs and alb caster nerfs those 4 setups are all quite strong. The outlier currently are alb tanker which these changes seek to address, maybe mid caster/hybrid in terms of blap potential with skald + thane + bd instants after debuff and hib casters due to a general meh feeling.

When you look at specific set ups rather than abilities you limit yourself to, imo, cookie cutter approaches and simply declare victory rather than try and look at what abilities and effects each toon can bring to a fight and whether there are legitimate counters ---- while I understand what they are doing is easier <read labor intensive>you can never overcome the collective of the player base. In other words, balance isn't about set 8's, it's about manipulating effects and allowing the player decide what they want to be as a group, battlegroup, small man or solo./
Thu 4 Mar 2021 3:19 PM by Sepplord
not to mention what you do to the already wonky balance of smallmen setups by giving high utility classes even more utility
Thu 4 Mar 2021 4:13 PM by Tyrlaan
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Mar 2021 3:19 PM
not to mention what you due to the already wonky balance of smallmen setups by giving high utility classes even more utility

That´s the insulting part of the "gutting a core component of a spec line for a class that is hardly played is a bit insulting to the people that play that class" Takeahnase mentioned.

Heaping even more utility (roots, heals, stat/resist debuffs, NS) on classes which are already packed with utility and not really lacking in population. Triple 50% resist debuffs on 3 out of 4 caster classes and all casters nuking on the same 50% resist debuff after the 2nd base nuke was added. Less resist debuff delve to the other realms (while Alb caster groups are indeed strong, I don´t see why they can´t remain so or why Midgard´s crappy casters who have way less spec nukes would have to settle with lower delve resist debuffs too).

And while adding all this stuff to these classes, they nerf the Earth Theurgist - who hasn´t seen any improvements for years - only because he happens to have good synergy with tanks (and with nobody else) and some people in some secret council feel Alb tank groups are suddenly too strong.
Thu 4 Mar 2021 8:32 PM by poplik
some people in some secret council feel Alb tank groups are suddenly too strong.

I see your points, but surely this is not up for debate, I play on mid and playing against hib and against alb is like playing two different games.
Fri 5 Mar 2021 2:05 AM by teiloh
utaz wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:14 PM
Do we even know who are the council members and their experience in daoc?

Most likely people who played Mid only and hold grudges.

If Earth pets are too op, have them flash a reminder at players that they can be one shot, to help them get better at the game and stop whining.
Fri 5 Mar 2021 9:42 AM by Sepplord
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Mar 2021 2:05 AM
utaz wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 2:14 PM
Do we even know who are the council members and their experience in daoc?

Most likely people who played Mid only and hold grudges.

If Earth pets are too op, have them flash a reminder at players that they can be one shot, to help them get better at the game and stop whining.

So people only playing mid, hold grudges that makes them suggest buffing mentalists?
The issue isn't realm favorism, it's picking 8vs8setups and making them the holy grounds for balancing
Fri 5 Mar 2021 9:53 AM by byron
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Mar 2021 2:05 AM
Most likely people who played Mid only and hold grudges.

Ah yeah, the same Mid players that gave Merc a back snare style while in Mid you can forget Sword,Axe and LA styles to have the same effect since you can use only hammer (so damage bonus only versus plate that atm casters and supports classes don't wearing...maybe in the future)
Mon 8 Mar 2021 10:52 AM by Tool73
realm with the most heal classes got push his heal classes, what a joke.

make liftransfer heal siege again!!!!!!! 2 classes to heal siege in 2 realms against 5 in hibernia is UNFAIR !

when the last realm can expect cc imun and second nearsight class?????????????????????????????????????? thats what i call BALANCING !
Mon 8 Mar 2021 12:08 PM by Ceen
byron wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Mar 2021 9:53 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Mar 2021 2:05 AM
Most likely people who played Mid only and hold grudges.

Ah yeah, the same Mid players that gave Merc a back snare style while in Mid you can forget Sword,Axe and LA styles to have the same effect since you can use only hammer (so damage bonus only versus plate that atm casters and supports classes don't wearing...maybe in the future)
Mids have 9 s anytime snare compared to alb 12 s back or side.
Wouldn't call that a game breaking difference.
Edit: Ok its a follow up I thought it's anytime
Mon 8 Mar 2021 12:45 PM by DJ2000
Tool73 wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Mar 2021 10:52 AM
make liftransfer heal siege again!!!!!!! 2 classes to heal siege in 2 realms against 5 in hibernia is UNFAIR !
Wut?

Classes that can "Heal Players"
Midgard -> Healer, Shaman, (Spiritmaster) -> 3
Albion -> Cleric, Friar, (Paladin), (Cabalist) -> 4
Hibernia -> Druid, Bard, Warden, Mentalist -> 4

Special cases:
BD-Pets and the Ench-Pets, both can't heal Siege.
Skald and Minstrel with Heal Song don't count.
Animist has a AoE HP-Reg, even worse than Heal Songs, can't heal siege.
Mon 8 Mar 2021 1:50 PM by Lollie
You could go a bit further and say Sorc/Ment/Mini pets can heal, depending what they charm?
Mon 8 Mar 2021 1:54 PM by Ele
Ceen wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Mar 2021 12:08 PM
[...]
Mids have 9 s anytime snare compared to alb 12 s back or side.
[...]

Which style are you referring to? I don't remember an anytime snare in mid weapon lines.
Mon 8 Mar 2021 1:58 PM by DJ2000
Yes and No.
Yes, as they can get Healing pets on the level of the Enchanter Pet.
No, they can't really -actively- control who or when they Heal someone.
So i wouldn't consider them a Class that can Heal Players, or siege.
I would put them also in the special cases.
Mon 8 Mar 2021 1:59 PM by Ceen
Ele wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Mar 2021 1:54 PM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Mar 2021 12:08 PM
[...]
Mids have 9 s anytime snare compared to alb 12 s back or side.
[...]

Which style are you referring to? I don't remember an anytime snare in mid weapon lines.
Only follow up

https://playphoenix.online/charplan/?class=Warrior&level=50&realmRank=30&view=skills&s6=18
Mon 8 Mar 2021 2:04 PM by Lollie
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Mar 2021 1:58 PM
Yes and No.
Yes, as they can get Healing pets on the level of the Enchanter Pet.
No, they can't really -actively- control who or when they Heal someone.
So i wouldn't consider them a Class that can Heal Players, or siege.
I would put them also in the special cases.

Oh yeah, completely agree, was just throwing it out there.
Mon 8 Mar 2021 2:04 PM by DJ2000
Lvl 18 Sword and lvl 18 Axe are both Anytimer-followup.

Axe
lvl 10 -> lvl 18
Pillager (21% ASR) -> Plunderer (60% snare)

Sword
lvl 10 -> lvl 18
Assault -> Baldur's Fury (60% snare)
Mon 8 Mar 2021 2:18 PM by Ceen
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Mar 2021 2:04 PM
Lvl 18 Sword and lvl 18 Axe are both Anytimer-followup.

Axe
lvl 10 -> lvl 18
Pillager (21% ASR) -> Plunderer (60% snare)

Sword
lvl 10 -> lvl 18
Assault -> Baldur's Fury (60% snare)
ah wups it's follow up thats bad =)
Mon 8 Mar 2021 2:21 PM by Ele
Thanks for your replies. I knew about these follow-ups. Comparing these follow-ups with one-part positionals is a bit meh imho,, because it takes more effort to land them and has an inferior return when compared to hammer.

Ceen wrote: you play phoenix not daoc so memory doesn't help.

To be specific, I was referring to my memories from my 1,5 years of midgard on phoenix, and I never noticed an anytime snare on a mid weapon line, but as I main supports/casters, I simply swing to the meta when it comes to specs of melees, so I might have missed that. TY for clarification though. :-)
Tue 9 Mar 2021 8:48 AM by byron
Ceen wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Mar 2021 12:08 PM
Mids have 9 s anytime snare compared to alb 12 s back or side.
Wouldn't call that a game breaking difference.
Edit: Ok its a follow up I thought it's anytime

yeah... the realm with anytime snear style is Albion...Arsman...Polearm... ups...
Wed 10 Mar 2021 2:09 PM by Centenario
The anytime snare on Alb is a class specific perk: only armsman have access to polearm.
If you'd give an anytime to hammer or sword or axe, you grant it to many classes at once.
On phoenix the devs have modified some styles to be specific to a single class, for example 50 thrust dragonfang is on-block instead of on-evade for classes which don't have access to evade. Usually not on an anytime.

The main problem for anytime snare on mid is the reciprocity for 2-handed weapon.
So you can hit like a truck while also gaining a lot of value from the anytime snare, on all these classes.

Finally the armsman is a peel/guard bot on alb, which could be the equivalent of warrior.
The difference between warrior and Armsman is that armsman needs to spec in both the basic weapon line and the advanced weaponline, with the same amount of point.
If you'd want to balance that, you'd need to give anytime snare to only the warrior, and reduce its point pool to 1.5

Another option would be to introduce the valkyrie, I am not too familiar with the valkyrie, but at least they had access to a different weaponline.

Final comment: backsnare 23sec snare sounds a lot better than anytime 12sec snare. Even back-snare 11sec snare is competitive for Hibernia's Hero.
To counter balance, hibs have enchanter's petsnare from range, hib have great snare spells , mid have good snares available easily for key classes.
On the other hand, albs have snare on a tri-spec caba... on a cold line theurg, on a matter sorc..., only the wizard has a good earth line snare are they real meta?

I think a good thing would be to allow Midgard player to reskin hammers into sword or axes just for appearance/flavor. Even if they all have to go hammer at least they can still look good. Except classes with no access to those lines: shaman/healer/assassin/hunter.
Wed 10 Mar 2021 3:21 PM by MeatBicycle
From time to time you get hits from polearms anytimer for around 7xx non-crit on light tanks (ofc after necro af debuff. In addition with red haste and dmg add cause its baseline in alb ) so i don't think the dmg comparison between warrior and armsman is a criteria for the anytime snare.

Most range snares are causing immunity timer so its more for emergency cases. In most cases its just useless.
Wed 10 Mar 2021 4:00 PM by DJ2000
Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Mar 2021 2:09 PM
If you'd give an anytime to hammer or sword or axe, you grant it to many classes at once.
-going on a tangent-

You can relax. There is none and nobody is asking for an anytimer snare in Midgard.

Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Mar 2021 2:09 PM
Final comment: backsnare 23sec snare sounds a lot better than anytime 12sec snare. Even back-snare 11sec snare is competitive for Hibernia's Hero.
To counter balance, hibs have enchanter's petsnare from range, hib have great snare spells , mid have good snares available easily for key classes.
On the other hand, albs have snare on a tri-spec caba... on a cold line theurg, on a matter sorc..., only the wizard has a good earth line snare are they real meta?
You mean DD/snare spells?
Which "great Hib" spells are you referring too? I don't think there are Hib-only "snare" variants.

The best "snare" spell in that regard would be Albions Necromancer AoE unbreakable Snare spell.
Thu 11 Mar 2021 8:52 AM by byron
Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Mar 2021 2:09 PM
The anytime snare on Alb is a class specific perk: only armsman have access to polearm.
If you'd give an anytime to hammer or sword or axe, you grant it to many classes at once.

[...]

I think a good thing would be to allow Midgard player to reskin hammers into sword or axes just for appearance/flavor. Even if they all have to go hammer at least they can still look good. Except classes with no access to those lines: shaman/healer/assassin/hunter.

Noone is asking anytime snare for Midgard but it is another example of an advantage of Albion (the Arsman is a very good peeler indeed, just 2 keys...anytime snare and slam without any problem to be in a good position to land the style), I was just replaying on the statement that Midgard players are the boss of the server that are nerfing Albion.
For the second part it is not a skin problem. The problem is that Midgards is limited more or less to crush damage since the game on Phoenix is based on melee snares (and caster debuff), If you don't use at least one of this mechanism it is a 100% /release.
Hammer styles are good (maybe the followup to Conquer, Arctic Rift, could have some effects..) but some sort of positional snare styles should be implemented also in other weapon lines (sword, axe, LA) to give players the possibility to use the weapon they want, like in other realms . Thrust in Midgard is very limited for class design but at least slash damage should be available.
Thu 11 Mar 2021 6:48 PM by Bry
Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Mar 2021 2:09 PM
The anytime snare on Alb is a class specific perk: only armsman have access to polearm.
If you'd give an anytime to hammer or sword or axe, you grant it to many classes at once.
On phoenix the devs have modified some styles to be specific to a single class, for example 50 thrust dragonfang is on-block instead of on-evade for classes which don't have access to evade. Usually not on an anytime.

The main problem for anytime snare on mid is the reciprocity for 2-handed weapon.
So you can hit like a truck while also gaining a lot of value from the anytime snare, on all these classes.

Finally the armsman is a peel/guard bot on alb, which could be the equivalent of warrior.
The difference between warrior and Armsman is that armsman needs to spec in both the basic weapon line and the advanced weaponline, with the same amount of point.
If you'd want to balance that, you'd need to give anytime snare to only the warrior, and reduce its point pool to 1.5

Another option would be to introduce the valkyrie, I am not too familiar with the valkyrie, but at least they had access to a different weaponline.

Final comment: backsnare 23sec snare sounds a lot better than anytime 12sec snare. Even back-snare 11sec snare is competitive for Hibernia's Hero.
To counter balance, hibs have enchanter's petsnare from range, hib have great snare spells , mid have good snares available easily for key classes.
On the other hand, albs have snare on a tri-spec caba... on a cold line theurg, on a matter sorc..., only the wizard has a good earth line snare are they real meta?

I think a good thing would be to allow Midgard player to reskin hammers into sword or axes just for appearance/flavor. Even if they all have to go hammer at least they can still look good. Except classes with no access to those lines: shaman/healer/assassin/hunter.


LOL. RR 11 Chanter chiming in here. The pet snare from the underhill is worthless 90% of the time due to the double los check, the pet being nearsighted (which makes the pet stand there useless 99.99% of the time because the code/logic for pets is very bad), or the pet being mezzed/rooted or just killed. I'd take giving all of hib melee a 23s rear snare like mid has over a snare pet lul. BTW, cabs and SMs get a stun pet which is >>>>>the snare pet. And SM pets intercept. Gimme that.
Thu 11 Mar 2021 9:41 PM by Tyrlaan
Bry wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Mar 2021 6:48 PM
LOL. RR 11 Chanter chiming in here. The pet snare from the underhill is worthless 90% of the time due to the double los check, the pet being nearsighted (which makes the pet stand there useless 99.99% of the time because the code/logic for pets is very bad), or the pet being mezzed/rooted or just killed. I'd take giving all of hib melee a 23s rear snare like mid has over a snare pet lul. BTW, cabs and SMs get a stun pet which is >>>>>the snare pet. And SM pets intercept. Gimme that.

Yeah sure. You would rather have played a SM to RR11 than an Chanter. But somehow it is easier to "achieve" on Chanters than on SMs. I give you that.

Btw. you can actually release a pet you think will be useless anyway and resummon it. A resummoned companion will start snare nuking right away until dealt with (i.e. will usually apply a snare at least once), a stun proc pet will still have to get into melee, plenty time to be noticed bee-lining for their target and to be CCed. SMs would love to have some variety in their pets and a snare nuke pet among them.
Mon 15 Mar 2021 3:49 PM by mattymc
So...5 'Balance Changes ' now --- what are the MOE's to see if any of this has achieved what was intended?
Wed 24 Mar 2021 1:24 AM by mattymc
So let me posit some ideas...

Did these changes help the RvR game -- No.

Did these changes help any of the subset 8v8 game, solo games, etc --- perhaps

What is important to the GM's? --- No idea....

What is important to the player base? Varies I think -- but those that want DAOC an RvR game are still waiting for something....
Thu 25 Mar 2021 8:03 AM by Noashakra
The new animist mentalist meta is not really fun to play against tbh
You add that to the fact two teams are playing it extremely well, and it makes you want to eat your keyboard.
Thu 25 Mar 2021 10:10 AM by Jingo NZ
50% tangler pet duration nerf inc
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