GVG List Suggestion & 8v8 on EV only.

Problem: GVG groups can go on the "gvg list" which creates arbitrary 8v8 rules such as pulling off if the enemy does a /yell. All 8v8 groups respect this code. However, when this happens in the task zone it creates a scenario where 8v8 groups are smacking casual groups that are just there to have fun in the task zone. I.e. imagine being a casual group in the task zone, you hit a fight, and the 8v8 groups pull off and kill you. That prob sucks. It also encourages 8v8 groups to "dodge" other 8v8 groups.

Suggestion: my suggestion is to make it so that the GVG list and the ability to send a clean fight ONLY work when the group is on/fought/died on EV. If you enter the task zone, it should automatically drop you off of the gvg list. You shouldn't have the protection/code of the list if you are consciously roaming a zone littered with adds, archers, and jams. You also shouldn't reap the benefits of the 1k cleanfight in the task zone. It makes no sense. By entering the task zone you are basically saying you aren't looking for clean 8v8 fights (knowing full well that you're going to inevitably get added in the task zone).

How does this help the current RvR environment? More true 8v8 groups will go to EV, creating a more robust 8v8 experience where these groups can port back to the island upon death and enjoy the 8v8 rules. More casuals will be safe from the 8v8 playstyle within the task zone. Everybody wins. The only other consideration would be removing EV from the task rotation but that can be a separate issue to take up. I think this sets up the scenario where you can separate but honor the 2 playstyles without much interference.

Thu 25 Feb 2021 12:12 PM by keen

A lot of ppl also like the ev task since everyone can port back there in no time.
I suggest just to disable gvg accept if the fight was in a task zone.

Thu 25 Feb 2021 1:19 PM by omicidi

I like it during prime time where you get into fights every so often.

When it’s just a handful of 8v8 groups, they’ll be in the task zone for action.

Thu 25 Feb 2021 2:21 PM by soremir

Great suggestion.

Fri 26 Feb 2021 2:42 AM by Nephamael

I generally support your idea, but:

- the real gvg 8men usually manage to find clean 8v8s in the 3 outer task zones, by simply going far enough away from where random taskers play (usually down the river)

breifine is actually also in absolutely ok shape, as you can simply go to the maze if you want clean 8v8s, while the task action is at the shoreline

only pennine and jamtland are problematic zones to keep taskers and 8v8 groups away from each other, as both go to the same areas next to the shoreline, to find their action, which does lead exactly to the collision of different playstyles you describe

- on top of the natural problem of those 2 middle zones, usually all gvg groups warm up in the task zone (at least eu time) and then go ev to 8v8 when they feel ready to compete with other gvg groups - people have gotten a lot better at playing 8v8 on phoenix, so directly fighting the best groups in your first run of the day can be a motivation setback, the more pug members your 8man has the more you need the warmup in a more forgiving environment -

- when the task rotates to ev, the 8v8 action often stays in ev after the task, if the 8men don't get forced out of ev during the task

-it always takes one group to move to ev first, to encourage others to follow - whenever it happens soon all gvg action is in ev and the task zones are being left for the unlisted groups

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All things i wrote in favor of not forcing gvg groups out of the task zones ofc do not apply to gvg groups thinking they can 8v8 at the beno dropoff, when hadrians is task and /yell if they have adds there... But seriously - if people are doing that they are so far away from reasonable, there is nothing anyone can do about it. - If you want to warm up inside the center of the task action you should unlist and play jam and be jammed until you feel ready to hopp onto the list. - Every reasonable player and group knows and accepts that tho.

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Following your idea could imo only work if EV was taken off the task rotation and /gvg cleanfight never works in any taskzone - it would take away the option to have both, a task run and cleanfights tho, depending on where inside the taskzone you go.

Also automatically unlisting all groups in the taskzone would mean people might think there were no gvg groups out and unlist, even tho there are a few, just all warming up.

I also think it is a problem to make EV the sole gvg zone, while the new EV central keep task exists and attracts zergs into EV, sometimes for prolonged periods, especially at EU time.

Fri 26 Feb 2021 7:49 AM by Sepplord

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Feb 2021 2:42 AM
breifine is actually also in absolutely ok shape, as you can simply go to the maze if you want clean 8v8s, while the task action is at the shoreline

The maze is the smallman-teleporter though...yeah, fullgroups like to roam there, but it is kinda the opposite of being far away from the action. It is a main entry point for every duo/trio/fourman

Sat 27 Feb 2021 5:06 AM by Nephamael

The maze is the smallman-teleporter though...yeah, fullgroups like to roam there, but it is kinda the opposite of being far away from the action. It is a main entry point for every duo/trio/fourman

Yes that might be true, but to my knowledge it's not like there is a small vs small community on this server, all smallman port into the zone and then move to the next place where they can farm solos or add 8v8s.

Maybe my judgement is overly harsh? I don't play smallman a lot and if i do i play small vs8, so maybe i am wrong, enlighten me, if i missed out on an active 5v5 scene outside of events.

Sat 27 Feb 2021 5:52 PM by keen

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Feb 2021 5:06 AM
The maze is the smallman-teleporter though...yeah, fullgroups like to roam there, but it is kinda the opposite of being far away from the action. It is a main entry point for every duo/trio/fourman

Yes that might be true, but to my knowledge it's not like there is a small vs small community on this server, all smallman port into the zone and then move to the next place where they can farm solos or add 8v8s.

Maybe my judgement is overly harsh? I don't play smallman a lot and if i do i play small vs8, so maybe i am wrong, enlighten me, if i missed out on an active 5v5 scene outside of events.

You never came to the conclusion that there might be no small men scene since they get farmed by roaaming 8v8 grps around their entry spot so they can never form a small men area?
Sorry if that sounds overly harsh.

Sun 28 Feb 2021 3:21 AM by Nephamael

You never came to the conclusion that there might be no small men scene since they get farmed by roaaming 8v8 grps around their entry spot so they can never form a small men area?

I highly doubt that. I think it is the lack of /fair cleanfight and the higher RP/h you can do if you run away from other smallmen on sight and exclusively kill solos and smaller numbers.

Mon 1 Mar 2021 10:19 AM by Sepplord

yeah, sadly as a smallman you have to go VS 8 quite often, since there just aren't many other targets around

always funny though when the 8man legs it to their keep, when you surprise them with 4people

Tue 2 Mar 2021 10:10 AM by Centenario

I have watched gvg stream from mid player in <Error> guild:
- they are always gvg listed
- they always pull away when added and just farm on EZ rp from adders
- they don't mind following the task zone
- they 50% of the time trash on casual small/8man/16man with high RR and experience (get immune back out, come back, assist)
- they know other gvg groups are around and won't add them even serve as a line of defense in the back or side
- the gvg fights are not even clean arena style fights, they just look like casual 8-man where they take advantage of surprise

So what is the point of gvg, they should just go to the arena.
-> fair 8v8 gameplay without surprise
-> no farming RP on adders
-> no 3L vs 10L trashing
-> no voicecom vs no-voiceom gameplay
-> leave RvR to actual casual task 8-men and small man players

At the moment just because of gvg players roaming around people are forced to build 16-man groups to have fair fights
And casual 8-man are disappearing to small bg style gameplay like Maxisto's bgs ^^

Tue 2 Mar 2021 10:32 AM by Astaa

They are perfectly entitled to pull off from adds, as is anyone. If people don't like it then they can choose not to add.

That being said, if they didn't spend most of their time farming casuals in the task zone then adds probably wouldn't be so much of an issue for them.

Tue 2 Mar 2021 3:18 PM by joshisanonymous

Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 10:32 AM
They are perfectly entitled to pull off from adds, as is anyone. If people don't like it then they can choose not to add.

That being said, if they didn't spend most of their time farming casuals in the task zone then adds probably wouldn't be so much of an issue for them.

I agree that they are perfectly entitled to pull off, but the rest of the server is also perfectly entitled to criticize them for it. It's way out of the spirit of the game, which is realm vs realm, whereas some 8mans explicitly admit that they "don't play for the realm." It would be different if it wasn't just criticism and was accusations that they simply aren't allowed to pull off.

I'm really curious how many 8mans love the leveling event with all of its chaos. Seems to me that what makes it fun is that you never know what's going to happen and have to learn to adjust on the fly, which could easily be a thing in the 8v8 scene except for the self-imposed rules that all fights must be clean, arena-style affairs.

Thu 4 Mar 2021 8:46 AM by Ceen

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 3:18 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 10:32 AM
They are perfectly entitled to pull off from adds, as is anyone. If people don't like it then they can choose not to add.

That being said, if they didn't spend most of their time farming casuals in the task zone then adds probably wouldn't be so much of an issue for them.

I agree that they are perfectly entitled to pull off, but the rest of the server is also perfectly entitled to criticize them for it. It's way out of the spirit of the game, which is realm vs realm, whereas some 8mans explicitly admit that they "don't play for the realm." It would be different if it wasn't just criticism and was accusations that they simply aren't allowed to pull off.

I'm really curious how many 8mans love the leveling event with all of its chaos. Seems to me that what makes it fun is that you never know what's going to happen and have to learn to adjust on the fly, which could easily be a thing in the 8v8 scene except for the self-imposed rules that all fights must be clean, arena-style affairs.

Imagine playing daoc for almost 20 years and getting told to not play the game like it's meant to be

Thu 4 Mar 2021 3:54 PM by joshisanonymous

Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Mar 2021 8:46 AM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 3:18 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 10:32 AM
They are perfectly entitled to pull off from adds, as is anyone. If people don't like it then they can choose not to add.

That being said, if they didn't spend most of their time farming casuals in the task zone then adds probably wouldn't be so much of an issue for them.

I agree that they are perfectly entitled to pull off, but the rest of the server is also perfectly entitled to criticize them for it. It's way out of the spirit of the game, which is realm vs realm, whereas some 8mans explicitly admit that they "don't play for the realm." It would be different if it wasn't just criticism and was accusations that they simply aren't allowed to pull off.

I'm really curious how many 8mans love the leveling event with all of its chaos. Seems to me that what makes it fun is that you never know what's going to happen and have to learn to adjust on the fly, which could easily be a thing in the 8v8 scene except for the self-imposed rules that all fights must be clean, arena-style affairs.

Imagine playing daoc for almost 20 years and getting told to not play the game like it's meant to be

Kind of hard to parse what you're trying to say here, but if this is supposed to be mocking me, I'm not telling anyone how to play, but it's always been extremely clear that the spirit of the game is RvR warfare. I seriously doubt there are quotes from Mark Jacobs floating around that suggest that working against your realmmates was part of his vision, or that "realms" were used just because and aren't actually an important part of the vision of the game, or that the very term "RvR" doesn't mean much despite it being trademarked.

All I'm saying is everyone can play how they want, but that doesn't mean we all have to be supportive of every behavior.