Evade 4 for Hunters and Rangers

Currently there is no effective visible solo QOL in effect, so stealthers are the only viable soloclasses during most daytimes.

To make the solo fights more interesting i suggest enabling 6 instead of 3 classes (SB/Inf/NS) to compete solo, adding Hunter, Ranger and Scout to the mix.

Hunter and Ranger should be able to compete with assassins if they simply have evade4 and maybe the ability to spec physical defense on top. Winrates could be monitored and pd removed again if it is 2 strong (i highly doubt it).

Scout is more of a problem because his melee is 1h+shield and therefore naturally weak vs all dual wielding classes.

I think the best way would be selfbuffs in thrust and slash spec. That way a scout has to decide between selfbuffs or bow or shield.

This would make a solo thrust+bow and low shield spec viable, upping bow dmg and melee dmg while lowering defense. - A fullbuffed grouping scout in a zerg would still perform exactly the same as before, while selfbuffed scouts in zergs would perform better, which would need to be monitored.

I suggest thrust giving d/q, specaf and basedex and
slash giving str/c, base str and specaf.

Scout should defnitely be able to spec physical defense too and maybe get a better evade.

Let me know what you think.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 7:30 PM by Nephamael

I personally tested solo Scout and solo Hunter, but not ranger yet outside of Thidranki.
I fought quite a lot of solo rangers tho and found them overall pretty weak, even being able to beat some bow or hybrid rangers 1v1 with my Bard :p.

So maybe the solo rangers can give some feedback on my suggestions.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 8:07 PM by Stoertebecker

How long are you playing on Phoenix if you think that only the assassin classes are viable for solo?

And what do you mean with * i tested.....* ? For how long were those tests? Specs? Ra`s?

Thu 17 Dec 2020 9:33 PM by Nephamael

How long are you playing on Phoenix if you think that only the assassin classes are viable for solo?

584 days according to the webapp.

In the past visible solo was more respected by the community and therefore a lot more fun - most of my solo toons are visible solos. 90% of the solos i knew are long gone from the server, but this threat is meant as a suggestion for improving balance between those classes left for solo at the primetimes, not for qqing about what we once had

Thu 17 Dec 2020 9:58 PM by Taniquetil

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 8:07 PM
How long are you playing on Phoenix if you think that only the assassin classes are viable for solo?

And what do you mean with * i tested.....* ? For how long were those tests? Specs? Ra`s?

Neph knows what he’s doing.

I think Ev4 is interesting, feel PD could be OTT but not opposed to it, maybe paired back?

Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:07 PM by The Skies Asunder

I am on board with testing out some archer buffs in regards to soloing, or some options for visible solos too.

The only issue I have with your suggestions is this: Scout receiving buff spells in their weapon lines.
As it is Ranger already has to spec into 5 lines (4 if only going melee). Hunter has a separate spec line for buffs as well, but doesn't have to spec into two melee lines, which slightly benefits them (except that they are basically required to spec into BC, where as Ranger could technically forgo PF if they chose to). Allowing Scout to have the same (or better in some parts of your suggestion) buffs as a Ranger without needing to spec them separately doesn't seem like balance to me.

Fri 18 Dec 2020 1:50 AM by Nephamael

The only issue I have with your suggestions is this: Scout receiving buff spells in their weapon lines.
As it is Ranger already has to spec into 5 lines (4 if only going melee). Hunter has a separate spec line for buffs as well, but doesn't have to spec into two melee lines, which slightly benefits them (except that they are basically required to spec into BC, where as Ranger could technically forgo PF if they chose to). Allowing Scout to have the same (or better in some parts of your suggestion) buffs as a Ranger without needing to spec them separately doesn't seem like balance to me.

Ranger gets specaf, base str and d/q for his buffline and dmg add on top!

Hunter gets d/q and specaf and his pet but a pretty useless str/c for the pet with a casttime, mostly only useful for coast guarding hunters.

Scout with my suggested changes would still be 1h/shield so at a huge disadvantage vs all 3 assassins and ranger in melee, only maybe quite decent vs hunter.

And ranger has 1 more viable statbuff than hunter (base str) and dmg add on top.

A scout spec could look like this: 42 thrust 50 bow 18 shield 37 stealth, higher rr lower stealth higher shield - might be a fun glass cannon spec, relying on bow and finishing in melee. Also 50 slash 42 shield composite 50 stealth rest bow would be surely a fun spec, even tho probably weaker.

Fri 18 Dec 2020 3:27 AM by The Skies Asunder

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Dec 2020 1:50 AM
The only issue I have with your suggestions is this: Scout receiving buff spells in their weapon lines.
As it is Ranger already has to spec into 5 lines (4 if only going melee). Hunter has a separate spec line for buffs as well, but doesn't have to spec into two melee lines, which slightly benefits them (except that they are basically required to spec into BC, where as Ranger could technically forgo PF if they chose to). Allowing Scout to have the same (or better in some parts of your suggestion) buffs as a Ranger without needing to spec them separately doesn't seem like balance to me.

Ranger gets specaf, base str and d/q for his buffline and dmg add on top!

Hunter gets d/q and specaf and his pet but a pretty useless str/c for the pet with a casttime, mostly only useful for coast guarding hunters.

Scout with my suggested changes would still be 1h/shield so at a huge disadvantage vs all 3 assassins and ranger in melee, only maybe quite decent vs hunter.

And ranger has 1 more viable statbuff than hunter (base str) and dmg add on top.

A scout spec could look like this: 42 thrust 50 bow 18 shield 37 stealth, higher rr lower stealth higher shield - might be a fun glass cannon spec, relying on bow and finishing in melee. Also 50 slash 42 shield composite 50 stealth rest bow would be surely a fun spec, even tho probably weaker.

Sure, but if you spec a Ranger 50 Blades, 42 Celtic Dual, composite 50 Stealth, and the rest in Archery, they would have zero self buffs. And if you spec a Ranger with 50 Archery, and want to have a 42 in a weapon and buffs it is literally impossible, and that is without even including Stealth or CD. I just can't see a justification for giving them to Scout in a weapon line, without moving the PF line into Blades/Pierce in the same way for Ranger.

Fri 18 Dec 2020 4:58 AM by Kwall0311

A new anytime/followup thrust style for scout would go a long way, as well as a better block reactionary. Ive used them quite a bit.

Fri 18 Dec 2020 5:05 AM by gotwqqd

They just needed archers.
And it’s unrealistic to think the archetype should have easy time without its premier class aspect....the bow

Fri 18 Dec 2020 7:46 AM by easytoremember

I don't support or oppose the suggestion but am annoyed by how warped the meaning of QOL is getting each time it is thrown around

Sun 20 Dec 2020 2:33 AM by Nephamael

Sure, but if you spec a Ranger 50 Blades, 42 Celtic Dual, composite 50 Stealth, and the rest in Archery, they would have zero self buffs. And if you spec a Ranger with 50 Archery, and want to have a 42 in a weapon and buffs it is literally impossible, and that is without even including Stealth or CD. I just can't see a justification for giving them to Scout in a weapon line, without moving the PF line into Blades/Pierce in the same way for Ranger.

yes, but if you spec a ranger 42 path and 39 blade, composite 50 stealth rest cd he is still strong in all matchups - imagine with evade4.

A scout has 1h/shield - on phoenix this is the most miserable weapon type any solo can use.
If ranger needs some more specpoints after those changes, to stay equal, i won't oppose it - but i expect melee rangers to still have an advantage vs melee scouts with all changes i suggest in effect.

- If you have another suggestion on how to make solo scout a viable class without buffing them for zerg, go ahead post it.

Sun 20 Dec 2020 2:47 AM by Kwall0311

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Dec 2020 2:33 AM
- If you have another suggestion on how to make solo scout a viable class without buffing them for zerg, go ahead post it.

Better anytimer/followup in the thrust line that doesnt have a terrible gr/bonus , better block reactionary that is a bleed instead of a stun.

Sun 20 Dec 2020 8:08 AM by Noashakra

I would prefer to give archer faster ttk in melee, I played melee ranger, and with IP and purge, it's too long to kill someone and you will get added.

Sun 20 Dec 2020 6:22 PM by Stoertebecker

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 9:58 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 8:07 PM
How long are you playing on Phoenix if you think that only the assassin classes are viable for solo?

And what do you mean with * i tested.....* ? For how long were those tests? Specs? Ra`s?

Neph knows what he’s doing.

I think Ev4 is interesting, feel PD could be OTT but not opposed to it, maybe paired back?

That wasn`t my point. My point is that there are enough ppl soloing, you just need some rr. Solo on a visible non speed class was always hard.

Sun 20 Dec 2020 9:57 PM by gromet12

Can all the other evade classes also get a free additional 5% defense bonus

And evade 4 on a ranger/hunter isn't the answer to fighting sins. Beside they cut your defense by 25%, it's the cheese application that makes the class strong here. Remove the /swap macro from the game and then see how the balance is.

Another option is remove all weapon-based defense penetration from the game, that should also include 2h cutting parry by 50% here. Then again see how it balances out.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:27 AM by Nephamael

Remove the /swap macro from the game and then see how the balance is.

I personally play the old style of manually dragging switch weapons into inventory and it works just the same (i do it on 1.5s swing speed, switch 1 per swing on my ns). It is just something you have to get used to and won't change a thing balance wise. - The main problem of archers feeling very weak solo is that there is no weak targets for them out there anymore, so i think without explicitly targeting assassin vs archer balance we simply won't see many solo archers in the future, they will group up or stick the zerg.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 4:55 AM by trawetsnivek

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Dec 2020 9:57 PM
Can all the other evade classes also get a free additional 5% defense bonus

Other evade classes don't really need a buff though. I would say that all three archers could use a slight defense buff to help them in melee combat. Yes, it doesn't increase TTY by that much (although extra evades = more stun opportunities) but it does give them slightly more survivability.

And evade 4 on a ranger/hunter isn't the answer to fighting sins. Beside they cut your defense by 25%, it's the cheese application that makes the class strong here. Remove the /swap macro from the game and then see how the balance is.

That extra 5% would equate to 3.75% more evade when facing a dual wield opponent. Not game-changing at all vs assassins but better than nothing. I think a small buff most people can get behind. Asking for changes that primarily affect assassins is not the way to address solo archer melee capabilities.

Another option is remove all weapon-based defense penetration from the game, that should also include 2h cutting parry by 50% here. Then again see how it balances out.

That would make it even worse for Rangers and Hunters vs assassins. Rangers would have to fight assassins with a 33% evade rate as opposed to 25%. Scouts would benefit greatly, however.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 4:55 AM by Kwall0311

With the Crit multiplier reduction , overall bow damage reduction and the scout shield snare duration/endo usage nerf, why havent we seen any other changes to melee or defense? Its very hard to fight triple dots and ws/con debuffs/disease when you cant even do 40% damage to a stunned target with composite 60 bow. Like whats the endgame here? Just SB/NS/INF viable?

I know were not here to balance solo classes but its just silly at this point.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:49 AM by gromet12

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:27 AM
Remove the /swap macro from the game and then see how the balance is.

I personally play the old style of manually dragging switch weapons into inventory and it works just the same (i do it on 1.5s swing speed, switch 1 per swing on my ns). It is just something you have to get used to and won't change a thing balance wise. - The main problem of archers feeling very weak solo is that there is no weak targets for them out there anymore, so i think without explicitly targeting assassin vs archer balance we simply won't see many solo archers in the future, they will group up or stick the zerg.

Archers were never designed to kill 100% from range.

awesome that you don't use AHK to swap your weapons and do your styles for you....Remove that mechanic from the game and you will see a performance decrease in the assassins.

trawetsnivek wrote: ther evade classes don't really need a buff though. I would say that all three archers could use a slight defense buff to help them in melee combat. Yes, it doesn't increase TTY by that much (although extra evades = more stun opportunities) but it does give them slightly more survivability.

And you think Evade4 is going to help you? You also only want to buff the hunter/ranger...What about the scout? What about the other classes that I see roaming around in this game? Only the class I play deserves this extra 5% buff on passive defense....I see your style

wrote:
And evade 4 on a ranger/hunter isn't the answer to fighting sins. Beside they cut your defense by 25%, it's the cheese application that makes the class strong here. Remove the /swap macro from the game and then see how the balance is.

That extra 5% would equate to 3.75% more evade when facing a dual wield opponent. Not game-changing at all vs assassins but better than nothing. I think a small buff most people can get behind. Asking for changes that primarily affect assassins is not the way to address solo archer melee capabilities.

Then again that is 5% against any non-DW'er isn't it? If not game-changing, then why bother? I cannot help it if every class here has access to spec AF, which is supposed to be your defining difference-maker. Maybe buff spec AF for the classes that can cast it as self only (hunter, ranger, and friars)

wrote:
Another option is remove all weapon-based defense penetration from the game, that should also include 2h cutting parry by 50% here. Then again see how it balances out.

That would make it even worse for Rangers and Hunters vs assassins. Rangers would have to fight assassins with a 33% evade rate as opposed to 25%. Scouts would benefit greatly, however.

The sins would get a higher evade rate against you, you would get a higher evade rate against them. Scouts would get higher evade rate and block rates (meaning they could be the defensive archers, and remove the 99% root style). Every melee class in the game would gain something, including your target....which is why that sounds so distasteful to you.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:50 AM by trawetsnivek

trawetsnivek wrote: ther evade classes don't really need a buff though. I would say that all three archers could use a slight defense buff to help them in melee combat. Yes, it doesn't increase TTY by that much (although extra evades = more stun opportunities) but it does give them slightly more survivability.

And you think Evade4 is going to help you? You also only want to buff the hunter/ranger...What about the scout? What about the other classes that I see roaming around in this game? Only the class I play deserves this extra 5% buff on passive defense....I see your style

Yes, evade 4 will help in some fights. Getting an extra evade once a fight is another opportunity to land a stun and mitigate damage. In close fights that could be the difference.

And did you miss the part where I said all 3 archers should get it? Not just rangers and hunters.

wrote:
And evade 4 on a ranger/hunter isn't the answer to fighting sins. Beside they cut your defense by 25%, it's the cheese application that makes the class strong here. Remove the /swap macro from the game and then see how the balance is.

That extra 5% would equate to 3.75% more evade when facing a dual wield opponent. Not game-changing at all vs assassins but better than nothing. I think a small buff most people can get behind. Asking for changes that primarily affect assassins is not the way to address solo archer melee capabilities.

Yep...you can do math! Then again that is 5% against any non-DW'er isn't it? If not game-changing, then why bother? I cannot help it if every class here has access to spec AF, which is supposed to be your defining difference-maker. Maybe buff spec AF for the classes that can cast it as self only (hunter, ranger, and friars)

That's a dumb reason not to make any changes. The goal is only to slightly shift the balance so that archers at least have a better shot in 1v1. The objective isn't to make archers OP. Just like the recent changes to champs. It wasn't game-changing at all.

wrote:
Another option is remove all weapon-based defense penetration from the game, that should also include 2h cutting parry by 50% here. Then again see how it balances out.

That would make it even worse for Rangers and Hunters vs assassins. Rangers would have to fight assassins with a 33% evade rate as opposed to 25%. Scouts would benefit greatly, however.

The sins would get a higher evade rate against you, you would get a higher evade rate against them. Scouts would get higher evade rate and block rates (meaning they could be the defensive archers, and remove the 99% root style). Every melee class in the game would gain something, including your target....which is why that sounds so distasteful to you.

The whole point of this discussion is to make archers more viable in melee not less so. My main is an RR10 merc so I would benefit a lot from those changes. I wouldn't want that change though because it would completely imbalance the game and make tanks way too strong. It would make TTY way longer too.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:49 PM by Nephamael

Maybe buff spec AF for the classes that can cast it as self only (hunter, ranger, and friars)

This is a phenomenal suggestion actually - selfbuff specaf could be upped to pala specaf chant value.

Friars would be a true counter to assassins again and its a nice alternative to giving archers pd.

However i like the Evade4 idea more because it is the only defense of ranger and hunter and would make playing them more fun, because you can use more reactional styles and not just anytime most of the time. - Both ideas combined might still be a valid option, even tho melee archers would have to be monitored closely to not get 2 strong.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:53 PM by Noashakra

Or you can remove AF buff from combined pots

Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:59 PM by Blitze

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:53 PM
Or you can remove AF buff from combined pots

Yep remove AF buff from all... Awesome idea!

(This will improve solo VW, Meleeranger, meleehunter, friar, pala, &casters)

Wed 30 Dec 2020 4:06 AM by Babajaga

I mostly play hybrid ranger, these ideas are good. including PD, evade, which exists on live making rangers particulary insane.
removing af from pots, and i even suggest to increase the detect hidden compared to inf/sb/ns. making archers at least harder to get pa or bs and can land also an arrow to hit first the opponent.

Mon 4 Jan 2021 3:02 PM by Babajaga

Up.

Wed 6 Jan 2021 8:33 AM by inoeth

as long as hunters rely on evade to apply a ASR during fights, i am all up for an increase of evade for sure!
not sure if PD is really needed even though that would improve my class alot.
what i really like to see is camouflage to come back to have a slight chance to escape stealth zergs... i dont get why this was removed here tbh

Thu 7 Jan 2021 6:15 PM by Nephamael

Yep remove AF buff from all... Awesome idea!

(This will improve solo VW, Meleeranger, meleehunter, friar, pala, &casters)

While i don't hate the idea this would make solo caster unplayable actually, as you already get deleted within 6 seconds by most higher rr assassins even without PAchain.

I recommend keeping (buffpot)specaf for casters and removing it for everyone who profits from the attack speed buff. So you can either get attackspeed or specaf depending on your class being a melee or not.

Wardens would need to have selfbuff specAF or still get the specaf by pots btw since they have selfhaste and would be even more weak than they already are if they had specAF taken away from them.

-----------------

as long as hunters rely on evade to apply a ASR during fights, i am all up for an increase of evade for sure!
not sure if PD is really needed even though that would improve my class alot.
what i really like to see is camouflage to come back to have a slight chance to escape stealth zergs... i dont get why this was removed here tbh

Camouflage would make stealth zergs especially more annoying actually and rather help them vs solo stealthers of all kind.

Imo upping evade to 4 is the best we can do to make archers a bit more competitive and more fun to play because more reactionary styles to use.

You are right, we should try only evade4 and nothing else for now to not make them op accidentally.

Fri 8 Jan 2021 8:25 AM by inoeth

on paper yes but in reality stealth zergs engage more often in fights and therefore reset the 10 min timer each time.... so in the end they will rarely use camu at all.

on the other side as a solo you are alot more picky and end up running around for more than 10 min often, at least thats my experience from 20 years of hunter playing

Sat 9 Jan 2021 2:19 AM by trawetsnivek

Rangers had bow damage nerfed by 9% and scouts by 4%, recently.
Moarcane affecting pots was a further nerf to rangers and hunters making arcane an unattractive RA choice.

A slight boost to evade would give archers a bit more survivability in 1v1 situations and offset some of the nerfs directed at them. Keep fights and zerging would in no way be impacted by this non radical idea.

Thu 14 Jan 2021 8:17 PM by Babajaga

Up²

Thu 14 Jan 2021 8:40 PM by Blitze

Remove spec AF from buffpots. Perfect Idea.

(I think specc haste should go too.)

A lot of classes spending a lot of skill points on things that everyone gets for money at lvl 30ish values with a pot.

Fri 15 Jan 2021 11:56 AM by inoeth

Blitze wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Jan 2021 8:40 PM
Remove spec AF from buffpots. Perfect Idea.

(I think specc haste should go too.)

A lot of classes spending a lot of skill points on things that everyone gets for money at lvl 30ish values with a pot.

there have always been haste potitions so i would not remove them (friars ahaste is like twice as much so you still benefit alot from your spec)
but i agree with spec af being removed from combined, too many classes which are already strong running around with too high af imo

Wed 20 Jan 2021 5:29 PM by Babajaga

Hi,

i up this again for sure.

Remove spec AF from pots. Increase evade or add PD.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 10:18 PM by Babajaga

Doing this don't bother me

Mon 8 Feb 2021 6:55 PM by Babajaga

Omelette au fromage.

Tue 9 Feb 2021 11:30 AM by inoeth

Babajaga wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Feb 2021 6:55 PM
Omelette au fromage.

c'est délicieux!

Fri 12 Feb 2021 1:39 PM by Babajaga

Rougail saucisse.

Tue 16 Feb 2021 10:54 PM by Furrow

Hello everyone,

I think it is a good idea to give back PD like it was before in the live because the trend today is to focus on bow because there is no much options in melee. Evade 4 maybe it is too much because then all ranger/hunter/scout would get that for free while for PD you need to invest RA.
I remember good fights with my inf against ranger/hunter in live before Toa, but now with my low rank NS I can easily kill a high rank hunter, which should not happen.

Another idea would be to make the bonus in pathfinding and beastcraft useful, for instance any bonus point increase the buff value/pet level of 1%.
This is not a big boost and it would make ranger/hunter template a bit more complicated to do. (currently with only 50 utility ROG you can make fairly easy a good template...)

Tue 16 Feb 2021 11:45 PM by Tashkent

Furrow wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Feb 2021 10:54 PM
Hello everyone,

I think it is a good idea to give back PD like it was before in the live because the trend today is to focus on bow because there is no much options in melee. Evade 4 maybe it is too much because then all ranger/hunter/scout would get that for free while for PD you need to invest RA.
I remember good fights with my inf against ranger/hunter in live before Toa, but now with my low rank NS I can easily kill a high rank hunter, which should not happen.

Weird reasoning for balance you've got. 5% more evade would be OP because it's free, but the possibility to spec 20%+ more melee resis and AOM/EM in conjunction with some form of IP doesn't scare you as an assassin? How many high rank hunters did you kill with ease with 33 solo kills?
Please no PD for archers.

Wed 17 Feb 2021 9:57 AM by evert

I agree with evade 4. Solo rangers are free rps at the moment (can't speak for hunters since I play mid). Even better would be spec-able defence like parry (so the 50/48 leechers wouldn't have it) but that ain't happening I guess.

Wed 17 Feb 2021 5:09 PM by pzeub

Well there used to be melee oriented rangers that could kill any assassin on timer. Problem is that archers are struggling between leeching and soloing so they don't go for viable spec. I've seen Lygma killing assassin on his scout without IP though. If you want to play CD classe with stealth; you can do it on NS as well though.

Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:16 PM by Ixnay

+1 for archer defense love, just melt in melee at the moment to most things, most even fights are against each other

Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:41 PM by Nephamael

+1 for archer defense love, just melt in melee at the moment to most things, most even fights are against each other

I had some awesome 1v1s vs a melee scout with my battle warden, but i guess that sais it all

Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:57 PM by Kwall0311

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:41 PM
I had some awesome 1v1s vs a melee scout with my battle warden, but i guess that sais it all

At this point they might consider it a badge of honor that scouts have the absolute worst melee in the game. I just think its funny they reduced Crit shot, and overall damage with no changes to the melee aspect.

People complained and got the 'root' twice nerfed, which is almost useless to use in offensive situations now. Especially post bow damage nerf.

Fri 19 Feb 2021 7:15 AM by Sepplord

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:57 PM
People complained and got the 'root' twice nerfed, which is almost useless to use in offensive situations now. Especially post bow damage nerf.

I mean, you do have a point with scout melee, but it seems a bit hypocritical to call out nerfs after whines, when the custom ability was only implemented because of the same thing: whining.

Sun 28 Feb 2021 10:11 PM by Babajaga

Let me clarify some stuffs there for rangers. since no one take me seriously ingame or even in phoenix discord.

Besides empty heads trolling me everyday that ranger is alrdy op and they dont need any changes, obviously none played one since daoc started.

Lets talk first about snipers specs. Since they get nerfed, they literally can not kill any melee class, i'v seen a bunch of snipe rangers gettin rekt by so many 10% left health chars (THEY ADDED IT OFC, theres no sniper that can hit 90% before someone can reach melee them, even for 11l one, like 50% is alrdy a miracle because of many rupts class or dd charge lol). I don't even count shields spec class that can block 1/2 arrows.
What class is left for a solo sniper ? admit casters. You can remove from the list any casters with pets, snipers can't handle it.
So only wizard or RM (i doubt with bt) is a matchup that a random sniper can win against. A good one can eat rangers anyway. (and i don't even add MOC in the equation)

People are mean to ask why so much rangers zerging, adding or 4+ rangers group up.
That is the sniper aspect.

Melee one, thats my spec. I decided to melee a good sneak hunter class (from my experience of lives and others shards), melee ranger always was a tough one.
Here, its just too soft. We are far that melee ranger is really suppose to be. Squishy, bad defense, bad damage.
Playing hybrid is disgusting because of, once again range nerf, its cool for dot setup into rapid fire, killing casters faster or rupting better a kiting scout. but still not totally worth, admit for hit and run, you can not kite and arrow properly only with selfpeeling. (rupts, shield, dd charge, disease, snare poisons, rear/side snares everywhere, everyday everynight, no thx)

So melee imo is the way if you want to solo. I just have one question : is there another class on phoenix which starting to be efficient if and only if its 9rr+ and purge/ip/em up ?
i'm 7rr and even with purge/ip and no purge use from the opponent, i can lose so far. and the most frustrating thing is 80% are just so random players, i mean they just doing damage, blocks, evades and thats it..
The thing is : our melee rangers matchups depending a lot of RNG, good wep procs, abla/heal, damage variance and crits on our favor.
Maaan the fact that melee ranger matchup fates are all about dices is not fun.
Please, i know daoc, my class, and how i should a minimum play against any class or situation, avoid your future comments like : "-if...so...- your not doing well, maybe if you, better that, i'll do that in your place" thank you.

Something has to be done with Rangers, you did nerf range, but you must make a compensation, balance it on melee at least coz we are fuckn nails.

Mon 1 Mar 2021 9:08 AM by Centenario

Maybe just give archer classes access to dodger RA again.

Btw, hunters are supposed to have access only to Evade 2 and not Evade 3, which only Scout and Ranger should have.

Mon 1 Mar 2021 12:17 PM by Tashkent

Babajaga wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Feb 2021 10:11 PM
Let me clarify some stuffs there for rangers. since no one take me seriously ingame or even in phoenix discord.

Besides empty heads trolling me everyday that ranger is alrdy op and they dont need any changes, obviously none played one since daoc started.

Lets talk first about snipers specs. Since they get nerfed, they literally can not kill any melee class, i'v seen a bunch of snipe rangers gettin rekt by so many 10% left health chars (THEY ADDED IT OFC, theres no sniper that can hit 90% before someone can reach melee them, even for 11l one, like 50% is alrdy a miracle because of many rupts class or dd charge lol). I don't even count shields spec class that can block 1/2 arrows.
What class is left for a solo sniper ? admit casters. You can remove from the list any casters with pets, snipers can't handle it.
So only wizard or RM (i doubt with bt) is a matchup that a random sniper can win against. A good one can eat rangers anyway. (and i don't even add MOC in the equation)

People are mean to ask why so much rangers zerging, adding or 4+ rangers group up.
That is the sniper aspect.

Melee one, thats my spec. I decided to melee a good sneak hunter class (from my experience of lives and others shards), melee ranger always was a tough one.
Here, its just too soft. We are far that melee ranger is really suppose to be. Squishy, bad defense, bad damage.
Playing hybrid is disgusting because of, once again range nerf, its cool for dot setup into rapid fire, killing casters faster or rupting better a kiting scout. but still not totally worth, admit for hit and run, you can not kite and arrow properly only with selfpeeling. (rupts, shield, dd charge, disease, snare poisons, rear/side snares everywhere, everyday everynight, no thx)

So melee imo is the way if you want to solo. I just have one question : is there another class on phoenix which starting to be efficient if and only if its 9rr+ and purge/ip/em up ?
i'm 7rr and even with purge/ip and no purge use from the opponent, i can lose so far. and the most frustrating thing is 80% are just so random players, i mean they just doing damage, blocks, evades and thats it..
The thing is : our melee rangers matchups depending a lot of RNG, good wep procs, abla/heal, damage variance and crits on our favor.
Maaan the fact that melee ranger matchup fates are all about dices is not fun.
Please, i know daoc, my class, and how i should a minimum play against any class or situation, avoid your future comments like : "-if...so...- your not doing well, maybe if you, better that, i'll do that in your place" thank you.

Something has to be done with Rangers, you did nerf range, but you must make a compensation, balance it on melee at least coz we are fuckn nails.

I'm feeling you. It's similar for a hunter, not to that extent tho.

Centenario wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Mar 2021 9:08 AM
Maybe just give archer classes access to dodger RA again.

Btw, hunters are supposed to have access only to Evade 2 and not Evade 3, which only Scout and Ranger should have.

You can't treat archers the same. Defense is not the problem of scouts, offense is not the problem of hunters/rangers. Dodger+moblock+IP is too much, even on a random zerg scout.

Tue 2 Mar 2021 3:57 AM by Nephamael

You can't treat archers the same. Defense is not the problem of scouts, offense is not the problem of hunters/rangers. Dodger+moblock+IP is too much, even on a random zerg scout.

So what about evade4 for all 3 of them?

Or for hunter and ranger and scout gets 30% more growthrate on lvl39+ melee styles.

Tue 2 Mar 2021 9:56 AM by Centenario

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 3:57 AM
You can't treat archers the same. Defense is not the problem of scouts, offense is not the problem of hunters/rangers. Dodger+moblock+IP is too much, even on a random zerg scout.

So what about evade4 for all 3 of them?

Or for hunter and ranger and scout gets 30% more growthrate on lvl39+ melee styles.

If you'd know alb a bit, you wouldnt say that, on alb if you min max, you never want to go above 50 in composite basic weapon line.
Only Dual Wield or Two-Handed or Polearms or Archery should go over.
So why would you buff against the min-max? If you are 10L you should max have 30 in thrust, so it would be stupid to buff the 39 styles, since you shouldnt aim for it, these styles are just for when you start under 3L.

Tue 2 Mar 2021 11:30 AM by inoeth

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 9:56 AM
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 3:57 AM
You can't treat archers the same. Defense is not the problem of scouts, offense is not the problem of hunters/rangers. Dodger+moblock+IP is too much, even on a random zerg scout.

So what about evade4 for all 3 of them?

Or for hunter and ranger and scout gets 30% more growthrate on lvl39+ melee styles.

If you'd know alb a bit, you wouldnt say that, on alb if you min max, you never want to go above 50 in composite basic weapon line.
Only Dual Wield or Two-Handed or Polearms or Archery should go over.
So why would you buff against the min-max? If you are 10L you should max have 30 in thrust, so it would be stupid to buff the 39 styles, since you shouldnt aim for it, these styles are just for when you start under 3L.

if you know alb that well, would you be so kind to explain why you should never go over composite 50?

Tue 2 Mar 2021 3:08 PM by Centenario

I might have made a mistake its 52 composite on Phoenix.
Spec caps at 52 composite, meaning you don't get any damage boost from going over 52 composite.

style damage = damage * growth rate * spec * swing speed / damage cap

where SPEC is maxed at 52 and takes into account your composite spec.

the base damage (damage modifier * dps) is also capped at enemy level +1 which is 52 for 5L+ enemies for RvR.

variance is also cap at 51 composite for 5L+ players.

Going higher than 52 composite in weapon grants you access to higher level styles which might have better growth, that's it.

Whereas advanced weaponline such as dual wield, and two hand give increased damage uncapped due to two hand bonus and swing chances.
If you use midgard sword line which is both for 1 hand and for 2-hand it will be capped at 52 spec for both 1hand and 2-hand damage but will grant 2hand bonus for wielding a 2-hander.

So you'd rather keep your thrust or slash line at 52 composite as a scout, since it will not grant any benefit except for higher lvl styles.
If you are 10L+ the goal is to be able to cap 52 composite by wasting as little point as possible to get higher archery/shield.
So you'd rather stay at 52 composite and put as much as possible in archery and shield.
By boosting 30+lvl style you are putting a handicap on high RR players, who would have to waste over composite 52+ points just to get a better style.
On the contrary a zerk/merc would want to go 50 DW/LA to get access to style and would still benefit from added damage due to swing chance increases from uncapped dual wield spec.

If you make 30+ styles better you forcegimp high RR players, and a min-maxing player would get pissed off.

The best would be to boost <30 lvl styles growth and to boost >30 styles effects, so that effects give you an edge at low RR to fight higher RR players, yet once you get higher RR your progression path is smooth by switching effects for DPS, which is enhanced by higher RR (crit/weapon speed/quality, etc..)

To do the opposite is against developer logic: forcing your player progression to be gimped.

I personally spec 50 thrust on my infil just to get dragonfang to get a good growth and stun, until I become high RR to switch to full dualwield-slash for better overall DPS.

Tue 2 Mar 2021 3:53 PM by Kwall0311

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 3:08 PM
So you'd rather keep your thrust or slash line at 52 composite as a scout, since it will not grant any benefit except for higher lvl styles.

This is not true, as composite 52 baseline weapon cap only applies when using advanced styles. Scouts use baseline styles.

Tue 2 Mar 2021 3:55 PM by Centenario

I will try later tonight to be sure.
Test done on a scout
From my tests spamming amethyst slash, around 10 hits per test on a dummy:
*All else equal*
43 compo: multi = 0.387 ; style damage = 20-27
52 compo: multi = 0.469 ; style damage = 27-35
56 compo: multi = 0.505 ; style damage = 25-36
64 compo: multi = 0.577 ; style damage = 29-43

Same result on a player, same multi similar style dmg.

Okay I am disillusioned, my old school paper daoc isnt correct.
The basic weapon line style damage bonus for melee is not capped at 50 nor 51 nor 52 composite.

Then it means putting 50 points in the basic weapon line is a good thing for melee scout on 02-Mar-2021

Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:12 PM by Nephamael

If you'd know alb a bit, you wouldnt say that, on alb if you min max, you never want to go above 50 in composite basic weapon line.
Only Dual Wield or Two-Handed or Polearms or Archery should go over.
So why would you buff against the min-max? If you are 10L you should max have 30 in thrust, so it would be stupid to buff the 39 styles, since you shouldnt aim for it, these styles are just for when you start under 3L.

The idea is to exactly not reward a max bow high shield scout with high melee dmg.

The idea is to give you high melee dmg, if you go high into the specline = the scout has to choose if he wants high bow + high weapon and be a glass cannon with low shield - or high bow high shield and deal low melee dps - or low bow high shield high weapon and have low bow dps.

Besides: when i last tested the difference between 39+14 and 50+14 was 6.67% dps - if you use the style of the line that goes over 52 you get more dps for every point invested.

Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:28 PM by inoeth

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Mar 2021 3:55 PM
I will try later tonight to be sure.
Test done on a scout
From my tests spamming amethyst slash, around 10 hits per test on a dummy:
*All else equal*
43 compo: multi = 0.387 ; style damage = 20-27
52 compo: multi = 0.469 ; style damage = 27-35
56 compo: multi = 0.505 ; style damage = 25-36
64 compo: multi = 0.577 ; style damage = 29-43

Same result on a player, same multi similar style dmg.

Okay I am disillusioned, my old school paper daoc isnt correct.
The basic weapon line style damage bonus for melee is not capped at 50 nor 51 nor 52 composite.

Then it means putting 50 points in the basic weapon line is a good thing for melee scout on 02-Mar-2021

yep! the only thing thats caped at 52 is base dmg, style dmg however does improve with higher spec and as a melee you want that as high as possible

no matter if 2h spec or dw spec or base weapon spec... what counts is the weapon line you actually use for styling

Fri 5 Mar 2021 1:51 PM by Jiraishin

Physical defense and evade4 on top of a 750 dmg critshot? no thanks except you give ns, sb, infi a bow and viper5 being 100% poison dmg.

Fri 5 Mar 2021 2:29 PM by Kwall0311

Jiraishin wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Mar 2021 1:51 PM
Physical defense and evade4 on top of a 750 dmg critshot? no thanks except you give ns, sb, infi a bow and viper5 being 100% poison dmg.

"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”

Sun 7 Mar 2021 9:38 AM by Furrow

Playing a bit my hybrid ranger solo those days, compare to live 1.65 it is sure that the class (same for hunter) has been heavily nerfed (melee dps/ RA). Also outside of Emain/Odin, where there is some semi afk ranger/hunter camping, it is one of the class we see the least in RVR. Scout in the other hand have been buffed vs original 1.65 with the root, and with better defense.

To share, a summary of the fights I did, with the odds of winning for my ranger (RR5) vs other class of a similar rank (my odds % / his odd %):
- Archer:
+ Hunter: 90/10, maybe, I did not meet good one, but surprisingly easy. Poor defense, no stun, pet damage are low and outside of interrupting pretty useless.
+ Scout: 55/45, much more difficult than 1.65 one. I have still a small advantage, but very long to kill, root and stun can be reuse after immune timer.

- Sins:
+ SB: 45/55, depending of active RA/evades. Lot's of interesting fight.
+ Inf: 35/65 more difficult, especially the thrust one with viper and stun after evade.

- Speed:
+ Mins: 1/99 most played class of the server, even with favorable inc, it is almost impossible. Lack of interrupt, orange/red pet on me while he is kiting, not enough dps to be a threat for him.
+ Skald: 30/70, with favorable inc (bow pull), it can be possible. Depends a lot of timers.

- DPS:
+ Merc: 0/100, 60% chance to block arrow, 45% to parry, 200 dps, fumble. With favorable inc and all active RA used (IP/purge), the best I could do, remove him 50%.
+ Zerk: 50/50, surprisingly pretty weak class. poor defense, with good inc and active RA up, it is not difficult even higher rank one.
+ Savage: 30/70, similar than zerk but more difficult, but with good inc and active RA up, it is possible
+ Monk: 10/90, strong class, good evade, parry, heal proc, 200 dps, need favorable inc + all active RA up to have a small chance

- Shield:
+ Warrior/Arms-man: 30/70, very long fight, but with favorable inc d/v and f/c debuff and then to use a weapon with dot it is possible
+ Paladin: 20/80, more difficult, need to debuff him as well, but very long fight, with his regen. With favorable inc and active RA up can be possible
+ Thane: 20/80, more difficult than standard shield class, higher dps.
+ Reaver: 1/99, highest dps compare to all other shield class, even with favorable inc and RA active up, it is almost impossible.

- Caster (did not meet any solo cabalist/sorcerer yet):
+ Runemaster/Wizard: 90/10, very few alone, but with a favorable inc it should be pretty easy.
+ Sm: 20/80, need all timer up and a favorable inc with the bow.
+ Necro: 0/100, most op class of the game, but as well most boring class to play. Even a RR2, farming in df is a serious threat for me.
+ Bonedancer: 5/95, I try to kill the commander first, or to focus on bonedancer... Very difficult, lack of disease is not helping. if he does not have any active RA up, I have still a small chance...

In summary, Ranger today is neither OP or UP class. In the middle. Looking at /serverinfo while in game, it is as well in the middle. But currently with the actual patch, ranger are more encouraged to spec in bow and wait in DC to zerg because of the poor defense/dps and high bow damage. Reducing a bit bow damage and giving them PD or evade 4 and increasing a bit melee dps is an option to change that.
Scout looks well balanced.
Hunter is the worst archer and one of the worst class of the game. Pet is pretty useless, very slow melee dps, poor defense, bow damage lower than ranger/scout. Should give some specificity to pets, like one with snare/one with disease/ one with dot... and a better defense like evade 4 or to have the possibility to spec in parry (i think is is the only 2h class of the game without parry).

Tue 9 Mar 2021 2:52 PM by Nephamael

I came up with this new idea:

A after enemy evade style in the higher specs of thrust/slash/spear/sword/blade/pierce or cd for archers.

It would need to be a lvl 44 style imo, to make it inaccessible for bow archers.

I thought about 0.9 growthrate, +10 to hit +5 defense and a 9bleed for 40s or so.

It could also be a 2 style chain with 44 opener 50 followup and a decent attack speed debuff on the 2nd style, 30% or so, to make it even more interesting.

Sat 13 Mar 2021 2:56 PM by Babajaga

Up.

Make our melee correct and less rng-about winners.