Current state of the Thane?

Started 14 Feb 2021
by Harvest
in Midgard
Hi guys,

I'm new of this Server and I always loved the Thane, I noticed that they Changed/Added/Buffed a lot of things in that Class.

How it is now? Is it wanted in 8v8? Is it strong?
Sun 14 Feb 2021 2:41 AM by gotwqqd
Harvest wrote:
Sun 14 Feb 2021 12:47 AM
Hi guys,

I'm new of this Server and I always loved the Thane, I noticed that they Changed/Added/Buffed a lot of things in that Class.

How it is now? Is it wanted in 8v8? Is it strong?
Good fun class
Mon 15 Feb 2021 1:15 PM by inoeth
fun class for solo, small scale and zerg. not really in decent 8v8 because warrior does a better job at peeling/guarding and casters do a better job at dealing dmg.
however there might be some niche setups that could work with thanes (energy debuff trains)

i would love to see ragnarok with dd coming to the thane btw that might actually make the thane desireable in 8v8
Wed 17 Feb 2021 4:23 PM by Exploder
inoeth wrote: i would love to see ragnarok with dd coming to the thane btw that might actually make the thane desireable in 8v8

Yikes, that would completely break them. They are already ridiculously strong solo/small man -- especially if you abuse cheesy mechanics (numb/snare style/nuke, static/re-slam). Some classes just aren't going to be optimal in 8 man's and that's okay.
Thu 18 Feb 2021 11:14 AM by inoeth
Exploder wrote:
Wed 17 Feb 2021 4:23 PM
inoeth wrote: i would love to see ragnarok with dd coming to the thane btw that might actually make the thane desireable in 8v8

Yikes, that would completely break them. They are already ridiculously strong solo/small man -- especially if you abuse cheesy mechanics (numb/snare style/nuke, static/re-slam). Some classes just aren't going to be optimal in 8 man's and that's okay.

if you get ragna, you cant get red nukes, or no slam so that would be far from "breaking" them.
Thu 18 Feb 2021 4:29 PM by Magesty
Yes, great idea. Let's implement one of the worst changes ever seen on live to shoehorn an already strong class into a consistent role in 8v8 play. Group versus group play is largely a question of optimization-- this is why proper hybrids will rarely find consistent success in the format outside of gimmicky roles. When a Thane is casting on a target you'd really rather have a proper caster in its place, and when a Thane is meleeing a target you'd really rather have a proper melee in its place. Phoenix attempted to address this by essentially increasing both aspects of the Thane's skillset to be a little more powerful, and I think the changes were pretty successful overall. You aren't losing quite as much when taking a Thane instead of a more specialized class, plus they have ST. The downside is you are still losing out comparatively in almost any situation the Thane finds itself in, and the flexibility isn't as valuable in a meta game revolving around efficiency and specialization.

Live's designers understood this issue too, and realized that in order to give certain hybrids a role in a game type that revolves around specialization you had to make hybrids specialized. The solution was to massively buff hybrid melee DPS across the board, and to lazily award a number of classes a leviathan-type style without any consideration of class identity and balance in other styles of play. Thanes and Valkyries received massively buffed style lines with anytime DDs and leviathan. Valewalkers received the GR/conflag chain as well as a change that made BB a two style chain. Not only did these changes have the undesirable effect of homogenizing builds for the classes they affected (sword was clearly the superior weapon line, and 50 scythe was not optional), but they served to massively increase the DPS of the classes affected. So now we had hybrids that were essentially specialized in terms of being melee DPS, and they would be used in competitive groups on the assist train. Or at least that was the idea (they still didn't have stoicism...)

The problem is no consideration was given to how badly this wrecked the balance in other parts of the game. See, there is a fundamental problem with leviathan-type mechanics-- there is essentially no counter play if you do not have purge available or the type of reliable spam healing you'd find in an 8v8. If a Reaver slams you and you don't purge you have almost no chance of turning the fight around if they get a full series of levis off. The fight is over before it began and you are relying on a 10-15m CD to counter a combination that they can use any time. Now, imagine giving this capability to classes that don't have a fairly weak spell line and relatively low stats across the board. It becomes even more problematic. All of a sudden the solo and small man landscape is purely made up of the classes that have access to these proc styles because they were already fairly viable, and now they have access to massive situational DPS that cannot be avoided without purge. The visible meta game becomes purely focused around being able to counter these overpowered classes in some way if not playing them outright. This is much like what we are seeing currently on Phoenix with much of the visible meta being primarily focused around dealing with assassins in some way.

The reality is some classes will simply never be viable in 8v8 gameplay. Not only is this completely OK, but it is to be expected. The goal with design decisions should never be to force optimization for the sake of the 8v8 game mode, but it should be to buff weak classes while retaining their identity. It is fine that Thanes aren't the best in groups but are great at solo/small man/zerging. They received appropriate buffs and now seem to be in a great spot relative to other classes without becoming levi bots.
Mon 22 Feb 2021 10:05 AM by inoeth
well VW are already pretty strong and are run in 8v8 setups quite alot while thanes still fill a niche role.
and well you did not really point out why a dd style thane would be any different from a reaver.
imo the style change on live was the best thing they could have done to thanes, they were actually playable and desired.

btw there was no change to melee for thanes here afaik, dont know where you took that from. yes casted dd got a bit better but as you mentioned it is still better to get an actual caster.

"The reality is some classes will simply never be viable in 8v8 gameplay" - wow ok now you got me, absolutely!....
Tue 23 Feb 2021 5:17 AM by Magesty
inoeth wrote:
Mon 22 Feb 2021 10:05 AM
well VW are already pretty strong and are run in 8v8 setups quite alot while thanes still fill a niche role.

I only mentioned Valewalkers as the change to their weapon lines was similar to that of the Thane and Valk.

inoeth wrote:
Mon 22 Feb 2021 10:05 AM
and well you did not really point out why a dd style thane would be any different from a reaver.

It wouldn't be. The reason that is a problem is the entire third paragraph of my post. And, while it isn't worth a sidebar, I don't think this change even made them preferred in 8v8s on classic servers as they still didn't have charge or stoicism and heavy tanks had received their buffs. They completely distorted the solo and small man game, and the change didn't even have its intended effect because other classes were still more specialized.

inoeth wrote:
Mon 22 Feb 2021 10:05 AM
imo the style change on live was the best thing they could have done to thanes, they were actually playable and desired.

The point of my post was to explain why that type of change is not a good way to balance the game.

inoeth wrote:
Mon 22 Feb 2021 10:05 AM
btw there was no change to melee for thanes here afaik, dont know where you took that from. yes casted dd got a bit better but as you mentioned it is still better to get an actual caster.

A melee resist debuff proc would be considered an improvement to their melee.

inoeth wrote:
Mon 22 Feb 2021 10:05 AM
"The reality is some classes will simply never be viable in 8v8 gameplay" - wow ok now you got me, absolutely!....

Again, part of what I was trying to point out with my post is that changes to increase a class' efficiency with the goal of wedging them into an already existent 8 man role is generally not a good plan, and especially so when using a particularly problematic ability like Leviathan. Generally you want to move a kit's power away from those types of abilities to create better game play.

It is OK if a class is successful in solo & small man play, but less so in optimized 8v8 set ups. Suboptimal classes in certain play styles are an inevitability once a meta game is established in a game with this many class options. Perhaps there is a good change that can be made to the class that isn't as sweeping as arbitrarily adding leviathan, but it would have to added with the goal in mind of not massively distorting the balance for a large subsection of the game.
Tue 23 Feb 2021 8:42 AM by inoeth
i played thane on live and they were really a thing there after the style changes, yes they dont have stoic but as soon as they have immunity thanes really shine and when rooted they can still do some rping from range. still dont know what this has to do with solo game play when on the other side reavers got it by design and back style dmg is easily countered by purge.
yeah the debuff proc... very situational tbh. one could say it debuffs your instants and dd procs, true, but the increase in dmg is nothing to be considered a massive buff or something.

what i want to say is that atm thane is not really a decent option for 8v8 and it would be nice if there was because reavers/VW are a viable option.
Tue 23 Feb 2021 4:19 PM by Magesty
inoeth wrote:
Tue 23 Feb 2021 8:42 AM
i played thane on live and they were really a thing there after the style changes, yes they dont have stoic but as soon as they have immunity thanes really shine and when rooted they can still do some rping from range.

What class doesn't do well when it has CC immunity? Maybe ToA gave Thanes some additional tricks that made them desirable, but I'm positive on classic servers (which much better reflect the gameplay here) the general opinion once the changes had settled in was that they were still not desirable due to light and heavy tanks being simply more efficient at the specialized role they were used in.

inoeth wrote:
Tue 23 Feb 2021 8:42 AM
still dont know what this has to do with solo game play when on the other side reavers got it by design and back style dmg is easily countered by purge.

Then I don't think you actually read or understood what I wrote because instead of refuting my points about why this is bad design you are literally just restating an argument I addressed in my initial post.

inoeth wrote:
Tue 23 Feb 2021 8:42 AM
yeah the debuff proc... very situational tbh. one could say it debuffs your instants and dd procs, true, but the increase in dmg is nothing to be considered a massive buff or something.

It improved the class over all, and can be very potent in a 1v1, especially when the Thane abuses numb/snares. Not sure why you are hung up on this point.

inoeth wrote:
Tue 23 Feb 2021 8:42 AM
what i want to say is that atm thane is not really a decent option for 8v8 and it would be nice if there was because reavers/VW are a viable option.

That's fine, but handing out Leviathan ain't the answer boss.
Wed 24 Feb 2021 8:55 AM by inoeth
i totally understood your point: a buff to midgard would be too much because then you would have to deal with stuff midgard had to face for years.

you did not point out any valid argument against it other than it "completely distorted the solo and small man game". reavers/VW do not?

while assassins PA got buffed, archers got heavily buffed (now a bit tuned down), bards got buffed, all casters got buffed (except BD, they got nerfed several times), friars got buffed, mercs got buffed, champs got buffed

thanes got a bit more debuff value that adds ~100dmg every 20s on a good day LOL

hello alb/hib player
Wed 24 Feb 2021 3:15 PM by Magesty
<unnecessary real-world politics>
Thu 25 Feb 2021 3:50 PM by inoeth
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Wed 24 Feb 2021 2:43 PM
Jesus Christ, you prove yourself dumber every day...

talking about jesus christ proves the same about you tbh....
Thu 25 Feb 2021 3:54 PM by Razilly
If the name-calling, insults and real-world politics continue, this thread will be locked. This is the only warning you will receive.
Thu 25 Feb 2021 3:57 PM by inoeth
Magesty wrote:
Wed 24 Feb 2021 3:15 PM
There is a very large contingent of anti-intellectual populists in my country.

This is exactly like trying to discuss anything with them.

You either did not read my thread or you made no attempt to comprehend on any level what I was trying to communicate. You have been essentially having an entire discussion with yourself, using what you presume to be my opinions, and neither one of of us was fully aware of it until now.

well that happens when one party is completely ignoring the other. i did read your posts and understood what you said, but it does not make any sense, because you still did not explain why levi like styles on alb/hib are ok and on mid it is not....

does thanes desperately need a buff? maybe
would it change balance? of course!
is it fair? yes!
why? because others have it too.

simple... dont know whats so difficult to understand.

just out of interest, which country is it you are talking about?

btw what peter tells about paul, tells more about peter than about paul.
Thu 25 Feb 2021 6:44 PM by Magesty
Magesty wrote:
Thu 18 Feb 2021 4:29 PM
The problem is no consideration was given to how badly this wrecked the balance in other parts of the game. See, there is a fundamental problem with leviathan-type mechanics-- there is essentially no counter play if you do not have purge available or the type of reliable spam healing you'd find in an 8v8. If a Reaver slams you and you don't purge you have almost no chance of turning the fight around if they get a full series of levis off. The fight is over before it began and you are relying on a 10-15m CD to counter a combination that they can use any time. Now, imagine giving this capability to classes that don't have a fairly weak spell line and relatively low stats across the board. It becomes even more problematic. All of a sudden the solo and small man landscape is purely made up of the classes that have access to these proc styles because they were already fairly viable, and now they have access to massive situational DPS that cannot be avoided without purge. The visible meta game becomes purely focused around being able to counter these overpowered classes in some way if not playing them outright. This is much like what we are seeing currently on Phoenix with much of the visible meta being primarily focused around dealing with assassins in some way.

Literally an entire paragraph in my FIRST POST explaining why Leviathan is bad design, and what can happen when it is introduced to other classes that you have simply ignored or failed to understand. In my further posts I have explained that I would like to see Leviathan nerfed and the power moved to other parts of the Reaver's kit. Yet, you have not understood or acknowledged any of these statements all while repeating the same arguments.

Honestly, I don't have anything else to say to you on this topic unless you introduce a meaningful argument or show that you have actually comprehended anything I have written. It seems increasingly likely that you are just trolling at this point.
Fri 26 Feb 2021 7:16 AM by inoeth
Magesty wrote:
Thu 25 Feb 2021 6:44 PM
Magesty wrote:
Thu 18 Feb 2021 4:29 PM
The problem is no consideration was given to how badly this wrecked the balance in other parts of the game. See, there is a fundamental problem with leviathan-type mechanics-- there is essentially no counter play if you do not have purge available or the type of reliable spam healing you'd find in an 8v8. If a Reaver slams you and you don't purge you have almost no chance of turning the fight around if they get a full series of levis off. The fight is over before it began and you are relying on a 10-15m CD to counter a combination that they can use any time. Now, imagine giving this capability to classes that don't have a fairly weak spell line and relatively low stats across the board. It becomes even more problematic. All of a sudden the solo and small man landscape is purely made up of the classes that have access to these proc styles because they were already fairly viable, and now they have access to massive situational DPS that cannot be avoided without purge. The visible meta game becomes purely focused around being able to counter these overpowered classes in some way if not playing them outright. This is much like what we are seeing currently on Phoenix with much of the visible meta being primarily focused around dealing with assassins in some way.

Literally an entire paragraph in my FIRST POST explaining why Leviathan is bad design, and what can happen when it is introduced to other classes that you have simply ignored or failed to understand. In my further posts I have explained that I would like to see Leviathan nerfed and the power moved to other parts of the Reaver's kit. Yet, you have not understood or acknowledged any of these statements all while repeating the same arguments.

Honestly, I don't have anything else to say to you on this topic unless you introduce a meaningful argument or show that you have actually comprehended anything I have written. It seems increasingly likely that you are just trolling at this point.

i got your point but it completely ignores that you can either have a good ranged dd+slam, or levi+slam, or levi+ranged dd.
it all comes with a trade off....and i already said that earlier in this thread. hence you did still not point out why its ok for alb/hib and not for mid.
i think levi is pretty much what you wrote, too strong, but as long as that is not going to be nerfed, there is literally no reason why midgard should not have it tbh.

actually i would like to see something like VW has, a chain that does AE dmg.... could be something like a chain lightning.
Fri 26 Feb 2021 8:55 AM by Nunki
Harvest wrote:
Sun 14 Feb 2021 12:47 AM
Hi guys,

I'm new of this Server and I always loved the Thane, I noticed that they Changed/Added/Buffed a lot of things in that Class.

How it is now? Is it wanted in 8v8? Is it strong?
They did a great job to make Thane a valid option in quite everything.

You most likely won't find a place in an elitist 8v8 oriented group, but thats the case for many classes.

Beside that, never had such a fun with Thane on any "classic" or "classic-oriented" server.
Mon 1 Mar 2021 9:23 AM by byron
Thanes are fun but they can't fill very well in a 8men group simply because they can do melee/magic damage and interrupts but he is average in all of these aspects and other classes can do it better. It remains a fun option if you like zerging (hammers!!!) or try some solo even if it requires some RRs since atm on Phoenix a lot of solo players are high RR (and you have to increase your melee/cast damage and defence...so double effort).
The negative part for sure is that making a good template for Thanes with all capped it is quite hard and expensive. I used to have also a Thane on live server and I loved it since he was my first char in Daoc, arrived to 9L5. He was not bad in 8vs8 when the pbaoe group was a thing...
Mon 1 Mar 2021 10:21 AM by inoeth
byron wrote:
Mon 1 Mar 2021 9:23 AM
Thanes are fun but they can't fill very well in a 8men group simply because they can do melee/magic damage and interrupts but he is average in all of these aspects and other classes can do it better. It remains a fun option if you like zerging (hammers!!!) or try some solo even if it requires some RRs since atm on Phoenix a lot of solo players are high RR (and you have to increase your melee/cast damage and defence...so double effort).
The negative part for sure is that making a good template for Thanes with all capped it is quite hard and expensive. I used to have also a Thane on live server and I loved it since he was my first char in Daoc, arrived to 9L5. He was not bad in 8vs8 when the pbaoe group was a thing...

on live thane is much different because in fact it is viable in 8v8 there due to style procs as an front line dmg dealer or BG tank with casts as a back line dmg dealer.
both is not possible here since guard is not really protecting anyone ;D
Tue 2 Mar 2021 6:49 PM by Komaf
Harvest wrote:
Sun 14 Feb 2021 12:47 AM
Hi guys,

I'm new of this Server and I always loved the Thane, I noticed that they Changed/Added/Buffed a lot of things in that Class.

How it is now? Is it wanted in 8v8? Is it strong?

Anyone complaining about Thane improvements (i.e., making them more group viable) should quickly note that they are probably the most likely to never ask the following in LFG after 50:

"Looking for Thane."

Now, considering this truth, ask, why is that? Now, take that answer and use it to counter your own claim as to why the class doesn't need more group viability. I've played since 2002 (spring). The biggest gripe I've ever seen players make that didn't come to play meta classes, is, "Here we are with this outstanding tri-realm mmorpg with tons of class options. Yet the heart of the game being RvR means that a small selection of those classes will be accepted in competitive RvR scenarios."

Note I said competitive, but still, players should be able to experience the game without being limited because they love a certain class (speclines make sense, but a class negates multiple spec lines at once).

This is an age old argument, as all us veteran players know. DAoC has always been cursed with classes that don't quite cut their base concept model design (to make an RvR centered game). Why you prob won't see a half dozen other class requests either, depending on realm.

My excitement in 2004 when I found out as a rogue that I would be loved in groups, meant /uninstall DAoC and a handful of fun years in a more class considerate title. WoW was, however, shite when it came to specline considerations...until TBC, but, as I said, entire classes aren't discounted even in Classic WoW. That's a step forward for sure from the old DAoC model.

My 2 cents.
Wed 3 Mar 2021 9:46 AM by byron
inoeth wrote:
Mon 1 Mar 2021 10:21 AM
on live thane is much different because in fact it is viable in 8v8 there due to style procs as an front line dmg dealer or BG tank with casts as a back line dmg dealer.
both is not possible here since guard is not really protecting anyone ;D

I created my Thane in 2001 just reading the class description. Midgard -> Odin -> Thunders -> Thane is my class ! But few months later I discovered the value of the class and the reputation on it (we don't want Thanes in group! Thanes breake mezz! Thanes do low damage! etc...)
For sure when they introduced some changes on hammer styles only for Thanes (the dd proc) and in the stormcalling line (doom hammer and increased spell damage if I remember well), the class was more usable. Especially in solo I remember that I was quite strong with 39hammer/42shield and 50 SC spec (I was also quite high RR) but it was not enough to make it desired in 8vs8 groups. Now I see that the styles are quite different on live and Thanes have DDs also in other weapons but the more powerful DDs are on 50 spec so don't know what is the suggested spec now on live.
Wed 3 Mar 2021 10:21 AM by inoeth
byron wrote:
Wed 3 Mar 2021 9:46 AM
inoeth wrote:
Mon 1 Mar 2021 10:21 AM
on live thane is much different because in fact it is viable in 8v8 there due to style procs as an front line dmg dealer or BG tank with casts as a back line dmg dealer.
both is not possible here since guard is not really protecting anyone ;D

I created my Thane in 2001 just reading the class description. Midgard -> Odin -> Thunders -> Thane is my class ! But few months later I discovered the value of the class and the reputation on it (we don't want Thanes in group! Thanes breake mezz! Thanes do low damage! etc...)
For sure when they introduced some changes on hammer styles only for Thanes (the dd proc) and in the stormcalling line (doom hammer and increased spell damage if I remember well), the class was more usable. Especially in solo I remember that I was quite strong with 39hammer/42shield and 50 SC spec (I was also quite high RR) but it was not enough to make it desired in 8vs8 groups. Now I see that the styles are quite different on live and Thanes have DDs also in other weapons but the more powerful DDs are on 50 spec so don't know what is the suggested spec now on live.

afaik all three weapon specs got dd procs at the same time and when that happened there were many groups that invited 2-3 thanes instead of berzerks because when it was first introduced the sword style polar rift had a 70 dmg proc on it so you could deal around 250-300 dmg with a 1h weapon at swing cap plus ocasionally ragnaroks ofc.
that got nerfed to 40 dmg on polar rift because it was too strong obviously. i personally played BG thane and assisted my runemaster when the SC overhaul came which was very nice too!

i think current common live spec is something around 50 sc 44 hammer 35 shield 12 parry
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