The trust based GvG command - FAQ’s & Rules

Basics
Phoenix main intention was and still is to support all playstyles and to offer incentives for players no matter if they like to zerg, 8vs8, small man or solo. That’s why we implemented the GvG command some time ago. The /gvg list command was implemented to help 8vs8 interested groups to find enemies and the /gvg cleanfight was put in to reward a clean fight and to encourage new groups to try 8vs8.

We also stated that it is a trust based command which we are offering to the community and if this trust is exploited that the punishment will be the reset of the realm rank to 1L1 for all chars involved in it. Good news first, there was no major abuse of the command so far. Bad news, it happened a lot of minor incidents where we had to warn players.

As we know that for many players the realm rank is the most valuable thing in daoc, we tried to be nice and warned players first for those minor incidents. We also had to find out, that many players weren't aware of the rules of the /gvg command.

To stop the (un-)intentional abuse and to make the rules for everyone pretty clear, we will post them in this thread plus from now on, when a group lists itself for gvg every member of that group will get a pop up window which will inform him where to find the rules.

There is now a 3 strike system, every violation of the gvg rules will now add a strike to your account. When reaching 3 strikes the realm rank will be reset.

Rules:
1. You are only allowed to use the gvg command if you are really looking for clean fights.
2. Using the gvg command only to find out about the location of certain groups is strictly forbidden.
3. Running in higher numbers than 8 and using the gvg command is strictly forbidden.
4. When being listed for gvg it is strictly forbidden to add on 8vs8 fights of other gvg listed groups.
5. If a group doesn’t accept a /gvg cleanfight it is not allowed to send multiple /gvg cleanfights to the same group for the same fight again.

Claim Rules:
An accepted gvg claim that violates these rules will not result in a strike but in a 10k rp deduction.
1. It is only allowed to use /gvg cleanfight <name> after a clean fight.
2. If a group is fleeing from a fight, it is not allowed to use /gvg cleanfight.
3. If two groups are fighting and a third group adds on the fight, it is not allowed to use /gvg cleanfight after killing the adding group together.

Definition of a clean fight:
A fight eligible for a cleanfight claim is a fight where there were no adds for the first 6 kills. Please note that you are also not allowed to accept such a claim if there were adds in the first 6 kills. Do not report invalid gvg claims that have likely been made in error, e. g. a stealther add on the second or third kill, just don’t accept them.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 3:46 PM by Corou

What if, lets say, an alb grp fights a hib grp and a mid adds the fight. The mid just dies and the 2 other grps finishes the fight and either of them win....Is that considered a clean fight still?

Or what if and alb grp fights a hib grp and 1-2 hibs adds the fight. The alb grp is pretty strong so they just continue the fight without the hib fg pulling off and wins. Is that fine for the albs to /gvg clean fight it?

Thu 16 Jul 2020 3:59 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Since joining and leaving /gvg for intel is against the rules, punish groups who do it by forcing you to stay listed until you die, with a 2 minute window to leave the list once you resurrect.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 4:11 PM by Voso

The incentive doesn't need to exist with all the rules and restrictions. Please simplify the process...

1. Use EV for 8v8 only
2. Place map markers to ID each group roaming on EV.
3. Warn players as they zone this is an 8v8 area.

The underling issue you have is 8s want to roam around killing small mans and solos then expect nobody to add on their 8v8 fights. You could create a separate zone for 8s only using a BG map or TOA as you have done during events, but 8s stop zoning because they keep losing fights. Please stop utilizing all NF realm vs realm zone for 8s to GvG and whine about adds.

Also to address the current task system going to EV. Please try utilizing coastal towers as task instead of the old keep system. Solos and smalls could participate by defending the objective while the 8s could roam around killing players running to task or take the objective to kill all defenders. This removes the current meta of stealthing around flags or being rolled by 8s running task and doing GvG. I think this would increase the action after zergs are offline. The current task system is garbage and doesn't offer incentives to players no matter if they like to zerg, 8vs8, small man or solo.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 4:15 PM by

Uthred

Corou wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 3:46 PM
What if, lets say, an alb grp fights a hib grp and a mid adds the fight. The mid just dies and the 2 other grps finishes the fight and either of them win....Is that considered a clean fight still?

8. If two groups are fighting and a third group adds on the fight, it is not allowed to use /gvg cleanfight after killing the adding group together.

Corou wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 3:46 PM
Or what if and alb grp fights a hib grp and 1-2 hibs adds the fight. The alb grp is pretty strong so they just continue the fight without the hib fg pulling off and wins. Is that fine for the albs to /gvg clean fight it?

A fight eligible for a cleanfight claim is a fight where there were no adds for the first 6 kills.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 4:25 PM by LegalEagle52

Uthred wrote:
Corou wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 3:46 PM
What if, lets say, an alb grp fights a hib grp and a mid adds the fight. The mid just dies and the 2 other grps finishes the fight and either of them win....Is that considered a clean fight still?

8. If two groups are fighting and a third group adds on the fight, it is not allowed to use /gvg cleanfight after killing the adding group together.

Corou wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 3:46 PM
Or what if and alb grp fights a hib grp and 1-2 hibs adds the fight. The alb grp is pretty strong so they just continue the fight without the hib fg pulling off and wins. Is that fine for the albs to /gvg clean fight it?

A fight eligible for a cleanfight claim is a fight where there were no adds for the first 6 kills.

On rule 8 the rule makes it clear you cant CF after killing the adding group but it stops there and isn't clear as to what happens next if you reengage the fight. I appreciate the help and the attempt for clarity but just copying and pasting the rule isn't always helpful when there are ambiguities people are trying to work through and heavy consequences for getting them wrong.

For example, on the 6 kills, is it the first 6 kills in the aggregate or per side? 6 actually dead when the add comes or how does a rez factor in?

Also not that anyone respectable should be doing this, but if a listed group is fighting a non-listed group, does jumping that run afoul of rule 4 or do both groups that are engaged need to be listed?

I think people are going to avoid the list.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 4:30 PM by MiNDmaZing

I see the point with 6 ppl have to be killed. But its hard to check in the heat of the fight.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 4:43 PM by

Uthred

LegalEagle52 wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 4:25 PM
On rule 8 the rule makes it clear you cant CF after killing the adding group but it stops there and isn't clear as to what happens next if you reengage the fight. I appreciate the help and the attempt for clarity but just copying and pasting the rule isn't always helpful when there are ambiguities people are trying to work through and heavy consequences for getting them wrong.

It is pretty clear. Team A vs Team B, Team C adds. Team A & Team B kill Team C. Either Team A & Team B continue their fight or they disengange and leave each other. In both cases CF is not allowed.

LegalEagle52 wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 4:25 PM
For example, on the 6 kills, is it the first 6 kills in the aggregate or per side? 6 actually dead when the add comes or how does a rez factor in?

If 6 players are dead from one group.

LegalEagle52 wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 4:25 PM
Also not that anyone respectable should be doing this, but if a listed group is fighting a non-listed group, does jumping that run afoul of rule 4 or do both groups that are engaged need to be listed?

I think people are going to avoid the list.

The gvg command is an incentive to players who want to have "fair" fights or "equal number" fights. Why is someone on the list, if they dont respect other fights? The rule is pretty clear in this case too: 4. When being listed for gvg it is strictly forbidden to add on 8vs8 fights of other gvg listed groups.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 5:18 PM by Svekt

You should honestly just remove the GVG list anyway. Fights should happen naturally and there should never be a reward for losing. You guys don’t want people duel farming each other and reduced rps to pvp zone why should these guys be allowed to set their own rules in the community and be able to abuse players who follow Red is Dead, and get bonus rps when they farm each other.

Honestly with this change I hope every jams the 8v8s so they can’t use this command anymore.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 5:29 PM by Svekt

10 x gvg cleanfight = 10,000 bonus rps a night (win or lose). On top of everything else...
10krps x 7 nights a week is 70k rps extra per week that you can get without even winning and just playing daily.

That’s 70k bonus on top of what ever they kill and what ever rps from tower fights keep fights and tasks. GvG just creates headaches

Thu 16 Jul 2020 5:36 PM by Kurbsen

There needs to be a /gvg decline <note> command added to this as well.. (note only goes to staff for logs).

There needs to be a timer on when you can get off the list. This will help prevent people from going on and off the list to check where groups are.

There needs to be a /gvg cancel command as well because Shift+up and enter can cause you to mistakenly send a new cf. Should be able to cancel this if done by accident.

I'll add more when I think of them but these are the top things that are of concern.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 5:38 PM by Ferboten

I think the ambiguity and unnecessary strictness around rule 8 can be easily solved with a simple way to decline a clean fight claim eg. /gvg decline <name>

That way if a fight happens and there are 1 or 2 adds but the adds die and both groups keep fighting and one group wins, they can send a cleanfight. If the other group feels the adds impacted the fight, they can just deny the cleanfight. If not, they accept it. If the winning group spams the losing group with cleanfights, then they would be breaking rule 6.

No need to force this strictness about adds when they are easily dealt with and both groups choose to keep fighting especially when some days it is almost impossible to get a clean 8v8 without 1 or 2 adds.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 5:43 PM by Svekt

So any 8v8 not running on gvg is free to jam these right? It’s only an offense if you’re 8 and on the list correct?

Thu 16 Jul 2020 5:49 PM by Ferboten

Svekt wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 5:43 PM
So any 8v8 not running on gvg is free to jam these right? It’s only an offense if you’re 8 and on the list correct?

Reminds me of another common situation.. certain groups are known for adding and zerging down 8v8 fights. Under these rules they will be able to do this all they want while unlisted (which is fine, rvr etc.) but then if they decide to put themselves on the gvg list, they are suddenly immune from other gvg groups retaliating? The 8v8 community does a lot of self policing when it comes to this behavior and the standard practice is when a known add/zerg group lists themselves, gvg groups will just add their fights anyway because respect is a 2 way street.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 6:10 PM by Svekt

We hit anything, red is dead. This expecting other groups to drive by and limit their rps because of a behavior or ruleset enforced by only part of their community is like expecting the lion not to eat you in the jungle cause you were nice to him. 8v8 gvg peeps have had so long to just go to another zone that’s not high traffic and have their fights without adds, that’s the whole point of the list. But then they walk into a task zone and complain about adds or fight at a keep or on a bridge and complain.

Our experience with gvg on all three realms is that only a select few groups actually respect the rules and all the others Jam everything they see and bark about rules after and give some excuse. There is always a reason from their point of view on why it’s on they add your fight. But if you add theirs they just complain or try to kill you and bad mouth you in region.

GvGs are hypocrites .

That’s said the only group I really have any full respect for is Ferbotens group. Y’all are solid and deserving of 8v8s but your brothers in the list have a lot to earn and learn. I mean that 1000%. Ferbs group is the only one I see following the rules consistently.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 6:19 PM by keen

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 3:30 PM
Basics
A fight eligible for a cleanfight claim is a fight where there were no adds for the first 6 kills. Please note that you are also not allowed to accept such a claim if there were adds in the first 6 kills.

I think this is a bad definition for a clean fight. There are already problems with archers adding. In a way this will make it almost impossible to have a clean fight.
Until now this was solved by a gentlemen's agreement between the 8v8 grps that the losing grp will accept the loss and mark it as clean anyway since the add was not relevant for the outcome of the fight.
With this rule, one archer shot and you can't claim the fight anymore and even the risk of stacking strikes for adds you did not realise.

The 3 strike rule is harming most consistent 8v8 players, since the more you do 8v8 the higher the risk of making a false claim due to the amount of fights.
There should be a time attached to a strike after that it will be removed again. Ppl can play over a long period of time on phoenix, maybe in 3 years the whole 8v8 community is running around with 2 strikes and will have to stop 8v8 ing in order to not risk a full rp wipe.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 6:27 PM by Svekt

You realize that if you used the list and didn’t 8v8 in the task zone that your chances of zero adds goes up drastically. If the task zone is in emain and all the keeps are ablaze in emain I wouldn’t list and look for a fight in emain. If clean 8v8 was truly your prerogative you would be in some obscure location like Yggdra or forest sauvage listed and roaming waiting for someone else on the list to come look for you. Your chances of zero adds was just drastically reduced. But don’t expect people who are looking for other people to kill to just walk by and not add either. This goes back to the two way street. You don’t have to force people to adapt to your play style when you don’t walk into their play style zone. Period

Thu 16 Jul 2020 6:36 PM by Ferboten

Svekt wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 6:27 PM
You realize that if you used the list and didn’t 8v8 in the task zone that your chances of zero adds goes up drastically. If the task zone is in emain and all the keeps are ablaze in emain I wouldn’t list and look for a fight in emain. If clean 8v8 was truly your prerogative you would be in some obscure location like Yggdra or forest sauvage listed and roaming waiting for someone else on the list to come look for you. Your chances of zero adds was just drastically reduced. But don’t expect people who are looking for other people to kill to just walk by and not add either. This goes back to the two way street. You don’t have to force people to adapt to your play style when you don’t walk into their play style zone. Period

Yeah this has been a problem for a long time in the 8v8 community where we want to move fights to another zone where there aren't adds so we'll tell other groups to go to EV or something but no one ends up following us, they'd rather go to the task zone and collect welfare RPs. Before they added the EV task it was deserted even though it was the perfect place to set up 8v8 fights. After they added the task everyone went there, but then so did all the small mans and zerg taskers who add on fights. /shrug the task system makes it difficult to get people to go somewhere without adds.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 6:39 PM by Svekt

This is because they only want 8v8 when it suits them, they don’t want to do what’s needed for a clean fight then they can stop complaining about adds. The server gave them the tools, it’s not our fault if they don’t use the tools.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 6:45 PM by Svekt

Bottom line is you can’t expect the gvg culture and the red is dead culture to coexist peacefully in the same zone. This self policing we talk about has to take place and the gvg culture needs to figure out how to leave a task zone or simply risk getting adds on their 8v8. Too many want their cake and to be able to eat it too. Pick a zone for your gvg and stay put until the task changes. You can farm each other all you want. The bottom line is RPS, just farming each other and waiting while another 2 gvg fight is just a waste of time so people go looking for the smaller fish in the mean time. This is why gvg can’t get out of the task zone, they aren’t really looking for clean 8v8 just a means to move their task bar.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 7:05 PM by geilxr

Svekt wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 6:45 PM
Bottom line is you can’t expect the gvg culture and the red is dead culture to coexist peacefully in the same zone. This self policing we talk about has to take place and the gvg culture needs to figure out how to leave a task zone or simply risk getting adds on their 8v8. Too many want their cake and to be able to eat it too. Pick a zone for your gvg and stay put until the task changes. You can farm each other all you want. The bottom line is RPS, just farming each other and waiting while another 2 gvg fight is just a waste of time so people go looking for the smaller fish in the mean time. This is why gvg can’t get out of the task zone, they aren’t really looking for clean 8v8 just a means to move their task bar.

I think at the end of the day you’re obviously very hurt about people wanting to 8v8 and it breaks your heart you can’t jam them and be welcomed Into the community at the same time. And your earlier post about 70k weekly, it’s nearly impossible to get 10 cf’s when there’s people like you with so much spite that your only wish is to whine and jam. I hope you find peace bro

Thu 16 Jul 2020 7:11 PM by Svekt

geilxr wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 7:05 PM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 6:45 PM
Bottom line is you can’t expect the gvg culture and the red is dead culture to coexist peacefully in the same zone. This self policing we talk about has to take place and the gvg culture needs to figure out how to leave a task zone or simply risk getting adds on their 8v8. Too many want their cake and to be able to eat it too. Pick a zone for your gvg and stay put until the task changes. You can farm each other all you want. The bottom line is RPS, just farming each other and waiting while another 2 gvg fight is just a waste of time so people go looking for the smaller fish in the mean time. This is why gvg can’t get out of the task zone, they aren’t really looking for clean 8v8 just a means to move their task bar.

I think at the end of the day you’re obviously very hurt about people wanting to 8v8 and it breaks your heart you can’t jam them and be welcomed Into the community at the same time. And your earlier post about 70k weekly, it’s nearly impossible to get 10 cf’s when there’s people like you with so much spite that your only wish is to whine and jam. I hope you find peace bro

You can clearly see from any of the videos from with our mid build or alb build that we don’t survive on adding. We have our fair share of 8v8 7v8 6v8 and 5v8.

I don’t have any desire to be accepted by your community. The only desire I have is to better myself as a player and not provide excuses when I lose. That’s the difference between you and me.

Furthermore we have conditioned ourselves to expect adds rather than expect them not to add. As such we have numerous times taken on more than 8 and won. So again what am I to be jealous of or hurt by? Just because you say something doesn’t make it true. You must be one of the thumbs down that got killed.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 8:39 PM by Bry

Svekt wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 6:10 PM
We hit anything, red is dead. This expecting other groups to drive by and limit their rps because of a behavior or ruleset enforced by only part of their community is like expecting the lion not to eat you in the jungle cause you were nice to him. 8v8 gvg peeps have had so long to just go to another zone that’s not high traffic and have their fights without adds, that’s the whole point of the list. But then they walk into a task zone and complain about adds or fight at a keep or on a bridge and complain.

Our experience with gvg on all three realms is that only a select few groups actually respect the rules and all the others Jam everything they see and bark about rules after and give some excuse. There is always a reason from their point of view on why it’s on they add your fight. But if you add theirs they just complain or try to kill you and bad mouth you in region.

GvGs are hypocrites .

That’s said the only group I really have any full respect for is Ferbotens group. Y’all are solid and deserving of 8v8s but your brothers in the list have a lot to earn and learn. I mean that 1000%. Ferbs group is the only one I see following the rules consistently.

There are many groups that respect the rules and don't add. From all of your complaining in the many posts on this thread, it seems you don't like the /gvg command and gameplay. So don't use it. You might not like it because people don't respect you or your group because you're an adder. Like Ferboten said, respect is a 2 way street.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 9:23 PM by Svekt

You don’t have to be on gvg to see them add each other. You can see this from small manning around them etc etc. personally I don’t care if the fight gets added on usually. It’s a zone with other players in it.

I am not asking to be accepted by the gvg community. My problem with them is when they try to complain about adds and dictate how others should play the game when they willingly tried to have a clean 8v8 in a high traffic zone. I have no issues with them wanting 8v8 fights, I just think it’s ludicrous that they won’t move to a non hot spot to do it, there you have every reason to not expect adds.

My issue is the generic gvg community demands clean fights everywhere and that’s just dumb. You have a special list and command that you could easily reap the benefits from more often if you would just play in your own areas. Simple. Then the communities don’t overlap unless you leave your areas.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 10:57 PM by Sagz

Why is everyone over thinking this? YOU WILL ALWAYS get an add by a dock, by a main keep, in a task zone. So what would be the point of trying to be on the GVG list and expecting a clean fight? There would be no point to having this command.

I can remember multiple nights pulling off every fight almost all night cause of 1 archer add, a 2 man group adding, etc. suck it up it happens, the other group they were fighting did not do it on purpose. I mean we kill 1 or 2 in a group have the upper hand, then ohhhh someone yelled, they had 1 stealther add or a random untemplated caster added lets pull off and start again(you know 10 minutes later after their RAs are up). Majority of the time that group was losing anyway, suck it up, kill the add and keep fighting whats the worst that can happen. I never seen a group winning a fight, get added on, then yell to stop. They kill the group and kill the add. That is the game we play.

Everyone who wants to 8v8 will no adds and no one bothering them, why don't they just go to a spot in the middle of nowhere farthest away from the action?

I think someone said it before just remove the task from EV, no one will really go there and we can 8v8 there all day. That's the way it was on live for a long time when it was Agramon.

I personally like the spontaneity of getting added on every now and then and just randomly finding fights. I am all for fair fights, but the game was not made for that or it would be instanced battlegrounds. Have fun, if you die to a group adding who cares, you kill a group because they had adds who cares, most people do not add out of spite or intentional, shit happens, we all know the few asshats who do it on purpose and who do not, but who really cares about street cred in a 20 year old game anyway?

Remove task from agramon call it a day, you know what to expect when you get there, and if your not on agramon, you know what to expect as well.

Thu 16 Jul 2020 11:45 PM by geilxr

Sagz wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 10:57 PM
Remove task from agramon call it a day, you know what to expect when you get there, and if your not on agramon, you know what to expect as well.

That’s all we really want, but sadly at this point I’m convinced GMs just want to complicate things on the whole gvg topic until it’s a useless command with 0 groups left.

Fri 17 Jul 2020 12:01 PM by Sepplord

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 3:30 PM
Rules:
1. You are only allowed to use the gvg command if you are really looking for clean fights.

4. When being listed for gvg it is strictly forbidden to add on 8vs8 fights of other gvg listed groups.

Why is only adding onto 8vs8 fights forbidden?
Considering rule1 wouldn't adding ANY fight be a pretty clear sign that the group isn't "really looking for a clean fight" ?

Fri 17 Jul 2020 9:02 PM by Gohanssj

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Jul 2020 12:01 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 3:30 PM
Rules:
1. You are only allowed to use the gvg command if you are really looking for clean fights.

4. When being listed for gvg it is strictly forbidden to add on 8vs8 fights of other gvg listed groups.

Why is only adding onto 8vs8 fights forbidden?
Considering rule1 wouldn't adding ANY fight be a pretty clear sign that the group isn't "really looking for a clean fight" ?

yeah fully agree with this, but then I guess if people want to be petty (and we do) if some grp keeps adding on you (non GvG list) you might want revenge?

also i feel like the stike system should be a bit more complex, like claiming a fair fight at the end of a fight where it was already wrapped up and 2 or 3 steatlhers leech isn't the same level of infraction as baiting another GvG list group into another group in your realm then turning to add

Sat 18 Jul 2020 6:04 AM by Parole

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Jul 2020 3:30 PM
Basics
Phoenix main intention was and still is to support all playstyles and to offer incentives for players no matter if they like to zerg, 8vs8, small man or solo.

@Uthred - no hate here, but if this is the case why is the stealth group playstyle nerfed w/ extra detection and stealth lore pots? Seems like supporting all playstyles isn't quite what you guys are doing right now. Maybe this just went off the rails a bit?

Perhaps you meant we support all playstyles "except stealthers" grouping? Where are the incentives to groups sneaks?

Also - Maybe you can implement a SvS command for good solo fights? I wouldn't get much use out of it, but clearly there is a broader audience on this server than just 8v8s.

Sat 18 Jul 2020 6:18 AM by bfrtone1

Which is very true. No reason was ever given for why stealthers were punished for grouping. Even though all stealther classes were given group abilities, so how does that make any sense. So if a solo or small man visy, is run over by a fg visy isnt that a zerg? You are being hipocrits about supporting all play styles. I feel you could do better at supporting all play styles, including stealthers.

Sat 18 Jul 2020 6:22 PM by Gohanssj

Because stealthers are massively OP, you all cried when you couldn't 1v1 every other class on the server until you got rediculous boosts, the flip side was you can no longer zerg as easily (although still constantly see 5-8 man stealther groups so clearly not enough of a nerf).

Can't have it both ways, if you want to zerg with impunity then your damage needs to go back to being subpar.
Or just role a real class rather than a bottom feeder

Sat 18 Jul 2020 7:41 PM by Freudinio

Should add a timer, say 30 minutes where you can't use /gvg if running over lesser numbers with your fg.

Sun 19 Jul 2020 8:25 AM by Forlornhope

Should just remove the GvG/clean fights all together.

Sun 19 Jul 2020 12:44 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Jul 2020 8:25 AM
Should just remove the GvG/clean fights all together.

Indeed, most 8-mans already get the best RP/Hour.

Sun 19 Jul 2020 3:46 PM by

Uthred

Please stop the insults and offtopic.

Mon 20 Jul 2020 2:14 PM by Ele

I'd like to offer some feedback after a few runs during EU prime time with the updated ruleset.
The new definition of clean fights is strict, compared to the agreement on "meaningful adds" which was used before. Due to that there are fewer claims, while the number of actual fights seems to be roughly the same. The way adds are treated in the rules now lead to a more consistens separation of 8mans zone-wise, shifting the action to EV almost exclusively for listed groups. That way it removes a bit of the fun of the unpredictability of open rvr, but it is - fortunately - still far away from an arena style gameplay, which I personaly don't like.
What I can't really assess yet is the impact on 8man pugs. I joined one which was ok with toggling /gvg, while in another one several people didn't want it because of the possible punsihment for missing an archer add or unintentionally jamming an 8man fight.
Another thing to consider is the mechanics of the /gvg commands. I think there is room for some improvement, although I'm not sure if it is technically possible. Once a groupmember leaves a listed group, the group is no longer listed, but /gvg is still toggled. Once you reinvite an ld or a replacement you are back on the list. For switching setups or the setting - like from 8man to realm defense - it would be nice if the message when toggling /gvg the first time would show again, or you'd need to toggle it again every time someone leaves the group. That way some awkward situations could be prevented.
Another thing worth considering might be /gvg decline, maybe in combination with note, kind of like the already implemented /vote # note command. That way it could be cleared if a group just forgets to confirm a claim or really doesn't want due to whatever reason, which could be given in the note, like /gvg decline XYZ note Scouts interupted clerics.

tl;dr:
- changes are ok, have little impact on the action
- some technical adjustements to the /gvg commands would be nice

Tue 21 Jul 2020 7:03 AM by Razur Ur

why is there no Clean Fight RPS for 1vs1 listed players? because as it is at the moment the fairfight toggle for 1vs1 listed players is superfluous, because nobody signs up anyway or others only use it to add other 1vs1 listed players.

Tue 21 Jul 2020 7:20 AM by Sepplord

No one signs up, but people sign up to add on the people signing up? huh?
That doesn't sound logical...

There is no 1vs1 command because it would be abused the shit out of and create loads of work compared to the 8vs8 command that STILL creates a lot of work and policing by the staff. I would love to have similar commands for all kinds of engagements, but i doubt it would work out well. Commiting abuse as a team of minimum 16people is much harder to coordinate AND pull off without anyone leaking. Soloers would only require 2people willing to abuse...and the solo zone was quite a shitshow regarding soloers keeping up the spirit of the changes instead of bending and enforcing their own rules.
I am sure, a 1vs1-fairfight command wasn't realistic before, but since the recent happenings when the solo-zone started i would be VERY surprised to see something like that

Tue 21 Jul 2020 7:46 AM by Razur Ur

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 7:20 AM
No one signs up, but people sign up to add on the people signing up? huh?
That doesn't sound logical...

There is no 1vs1 command because it would be abused the shit out of and create loads of work compared to the 8vs8 command that STILL creates a lot of work and policing by the staff. I would love to have similar commands for all kinds of engagements, but i doubt it would work out well. Commiting abuse as a team of minimum 16people is much harder to coordinate AND pull off without anyone leaking. Soloers would only require 2people willing to abuse...and the solo zone was quite a shitshow regarding soloers keeping up the spirit of the changes instead of bending and enforcing their own rules.
I am sure, a 1vs1-fairfight command wasn't realistic before, but since the recent happenings when the solo-zone started i would be VERY surprised to see something like that

why should the danger be lower with abusen at 8vs8 compared to 1vs1? as soon as two people meet constantly within one hour, easy a GM can check if everything is ok,
furthermore there are also logs to the extra rps who sent whom, when and how often a CF request and it should only work if both parties are listed in the GVG at 1vs1, who
abused it should expect hard penalties like rp reset or deletion of the char! And my idea of extra rps would be e.g. 200 or 300rp by clean fight 1vs1 and I don't think it is too
much of an exaggeration that it is worth to use it so much without being noticed.

Tue 21 Jul 2020 10:24 AM by Tyrlaan

There is already a bonus to "clean" 1v1 fights: you get extra task credit for killing somebody without another player´s interference.
And you get title credit (though it´s kinda worthless - even the very antithesis to it, Pilzpower, is Lone Enforcer).

IMO remove the /gvg though. These 8mans get enough RPs already, mostly from 8v1 or 8v2 anyway. I don´t think any of these groups deserves extra RPs, and the claim they want extra RPs for "clean" 8v8 to encourage those fights is kinda ridiculous when you see them kill lower numbers left and right. You can reduce that to "they want extra RPs" - even though they are among the top earners already.

Restrict them from /gvg for killing lower numbers or put an RP gain debuff on them and you will see how many actually toggle it for the playstyle.

Tue 21 Jul 2020 12:04 PM by Razur Ur

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 10:24 AM
IMO remove the /gvg though. These 8mans get enough RPs already, mostly from 8v1 or 8v2 anyway. I don´t think any of these groups deserves extra RPs, and the claim they want extra RPs for "clean" 8v8 to encourage those fights is kinda ridiculous when you see them kill lower numbers left and right. You can reduce that to "they want extra RPs" - even though they are among the top earners already.

Restrict them from /gvg for killing lower numbers or put an RP gain debuff on them and you will see how many actually toggle it for the playstyle.

You do not understand the intention of the Extra RP's after a Clean Fight! The extra RP's are meant to encourage the weak 8-groups to fight fair with the established 8-groups!
And to make sure that they don't go empty there is this claim CF with extra rps.

Tue 21 Jul 2020 1:08 PM by Tyrlaan

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 12:04 PM
You do not understand the intention of the Extra RP's after a Clean Fight! The extra RP's are meant to encourage the weak 8-groups to fight fair with the established 8-groups!
And to make sure that they don't go empty there is this claim CF with extra rps.

Why even make the distinction between weak and established 8mans? None of these groups fight fair. Flag them not worth any /gvg bonuses after they ran over lower numbers and you´ll see how many of them actually seek fair fights. None. They want RPs (which is okay, this is RvR). And the /gvg rewards them for losing too (on top of what everyone else gets through RvR participation), which is just granting RPs to both sides - win/win I guess. But why would they get the RPs for killing all the soloers and smallmans and then also get extra RPs through a complicated system like this when they actually do fight somebody their number?

Tue 21 Jul 2020 1:42 PM by Ele

The /gvg command, especially on higher population times, allows for 8mans to stay clear of the area in which the zerg is, preventing the exact behaviour you describe, Tyrlaan. I'm not gonna say that 8mans never roll over solos or smallmen, especially stealthers. But: If there are enough 8man groups out, they tend to stick to EV or switch to Alb/Hib Maze if the task is on EV, so they don't mix with those said group of players. The exception would be a smallman or stealthers being in EV, which normally don't have the intention of just sit there and watch the 8mans fight.
I don't know if you are playing in 8mans yourself, Tyrlaan, but I have been running both guild/alliance groups and pugs for quite some time now, especially on Mid side, and I can assure you, you don't net most of the rps as an 8man. In the rare case when your group ends up being the dominant group for an evening than maybe you can get to 12+k rps/hour, but at least for me this is rarely the case. At least for EU times, there is only one group right now that is dominating on a regular basis regardless which realm they choose, but even they are not skyrocketing their RR with constantly beating the shit out of all /gvg groups.
That being said, the rps from /gvg cf are a nice incentive for rerolling/low RR groups to get into 8man fights. When you reroll on a different realm or even on the same realm with a different setup, you need to get attuned to your toon and your groups setup, which takes time spent on the said toon in general and in 8man fights for learning your role, working out tactics, movement etc. You need a lot of time before you can expect to kill someone in an established 8man, force them to use RA's to win the fight or even win the fight yourself. Until then, you gain exactly zero rps from an 8man engagement. Sure, you could join the zerg for getting some rps to get started or roam in the task zones - which we did often to get our lowbies some rr ups - but that way you don't learn much about your class, so it doesn't really help you in learning how to beat established 8man groups. So yes, the 1000 rps from /gvg cf are a bonus, but I wouldn't regard it as rewarding losing, but as a way of promoting to go out there and try your skills and luck against the top dogs on (somewhat) equal terms.
Edit: typos...

Tue 21 Jul 2020 2:27 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Ele wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 1:42 PM
you don't net most of the rps as an 8man

My group hasn't dropped below 13k an hour for months, and the only players who get more are the other 8-mans (YEET, Premade, HACKINSSA).

US primetime.

Tue 21 Jul 2020 2:36 PM by Sepplord

Ele wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 1:42 PM
But: If there are enough 8man groups out, they tend to stick to EV or switch to Alb/Hib Maze if the task is on EV

How lovely, they roam dedicated smallman zones looking for fair 8vs8...what could go wrong
Besides that i agree that the GvG command itself is a good idea to encourage new-groups / more groups to use the feature and play accordingly.
It should incorporate a higher standard though imo.

Tue 21 Jul 2020 4:26 PM by Parole

Ele wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 1:42 PM
The /gvg command, especially on higher population times, allows for 8mans to stay clear of the area in which the zerg is, preventing the exact behaviour you describe, Tyrlaan. I'm not gonna say that 8mans never roll over solos or smallmen, especially stealthers. But: If there are enough 8man groups out, they tend to stick to EV or switch to Alb/Hib Maze if the task is on EV, so they don't mix with those said group of players. The exception would be a smallman or stealthers being in EV, which normally don't have the intention of just sit there and watch the 8mans fight.
That being said, the rps from /gvg cf are a nice incentive for rerolling/low RR groups to get into 8man fights. When you reroll on a different realm or even on the same realm with a different setup, you need to get attuned to your toon and your groups setup, which takes time spent on the said toon in general and in 8man fights for learning your role, working out tactics, movement etc. You need a lot of time before you can expect to kill someone in an established 8man, force them to use RA's to win the fight or even win the fight yourself. Until then, you gain exactly zero rps from an 8man engagement. Sure, you could join the zerg for getting some rps to get started or roam in the task zones - which we did often to get our lowbies some rr ups - but that way you don't learn much about your class, so it doesn't really help you in learning how to beat established 8man groups. So yes, the 1000 rps from /gvg cf are a bonus, but I wouldn't regard it as rewarding losing, but as a way of promoting to go out there and try your skills and luck against the top dogs on (somewhat) equal terms.
Edit: typos...

All of the 8mans look for solos, small man and stealthers at docks and bridges between 8v8 fair fights. To say otherwise is total bullshit. You guys hit everything and complain when everything (adds) hit you back in the middle of your perfect 8v8 (even make rules against it - so hilariously contradictory). Also, promoting that a loss should get you rps because you "tried really hard" sounds like pity rps. 8 man groups are already the big fish.

Just make an 8v8 zone and give Fair fight bonuses there. Done. Problem solved. No more 8 man groups whining about adds and no more speedbumping solos and small mans in rvr then getting fairfight points 5min later.

My stealth group tries to kill everything we see. At least we own the hate the comes with it and don't expect pity rps when we lose. Oh and we get nerfed for what we do... meanwhile while I am typing this your 8man group has probably ganked 3-4 solos at a dock somewhere.

Tue 21 Jul 2020 4:38 PM by Noashakra

Wow I kind of agree with parole (except the part when he says they fight everything his group sees :p

8mans go were the rps are. They roam next to every hot spot to kill the small groups joining the Zerg and often docks. that is the hypocrisy of the gvg groups. They don't want adds but they 8vs8 where it will happen the most. Yesterday two groups did it on EV during the task just next to a flag and yelled when we added.
What a joke.

Tue 21 Jul 2020 5:03 PM by Ele

Parole wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 4:26 PM
All of the 8mans look for solos, small man and stealthers at docks and bridges between 8v8 fair fights. To say otherwise is total bullshit. You guys hit everything and complain when everything (adds) hit you back in the middle of your perfect 8v8 (even make rules against it - so hilariously contradictory).

It's definately not "bullshit". Sure, lots of roaming groups go for easy rps at docks, flags, whatever. But the groups that run in /gvg on a regular basis avoid places with the possibility of adds, even more with the updated ruleset. Of course, for someone who is not taking part in /gvg at all, it is difficult to recognize the difference between a group on /gvg list and a group that is simply roaming high traffic areas. I remember a conversation when I joined a pug on hib last week and our group really didn't work, but we decided to stay on EV although we'd get beaten up pretty bad most of the time because we wanted 8vs8 with the lowest possibility of adds. Even with this in mind I have to admit that not all 8mans think that way...
Edit: typo...

Wed 22 Jul 2020 12:20 AM by kedelin

bfrtone1 wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Jul 2020 6:18 AM
Which is very true. No reason was ever given for why stealthers were punished for grouping. Even though all stealther classes were given group abilities, so how does that make any sense. So if a solo or small man visy, is run over by a fg visy isnt that a zerg? You are being hipocrits about supporting all play styles. I feel you could do better at supporting all play styles, including stealthers.

they were punished cause all they did is grief sub 50 xpers trying to turn in at docks or level

Wed 9 Sep 2020 2:40 PM by

gruenesschaf

There has now been a rule change, the initial post has been updated to reflect this.

All wrong gvg claims will now cause a 10k rp deduction and no strike. The 3 strike system still remains for behavior against gvg, ie being listed and adding an 8v8 of other gvg groups.

The 10k deduction for all wrong claims since the 1st of September will be applied in the next couple days. There will be a read only thread to publicly track the strikes and wrong gvg claims.

Wed 9 Sep 2020 4:37 PM by jonl

gvg system is very flawed

Wed 17 Feb 2021 12:40 PM by RealIseultPlayer

Im sick and tired of these gvg players that drop from an engagement with an enemy if they feel like their fight was interfered with, but the same people have no problem rolling over or interfering with smallmans. So i think id like if these people were unable to attack or were severely penalized for attacking enemies not on the gvg list or whatever.
I dont know if it could be solution to have people that sign on the gvg list then unable to attack other enemies than gvg for the next week, like a realm timer, and have it be account wide.
They're being catered to when theyre the problem.

Wed 17 Feb 2021 2:00 PM by Sepplord

RealIseultPlayer wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Feb 2021 12:40 PM
Im sick and tired of these gvg players that drop from an engagement with an enemy if they feel like their fight was interfered with, but the same people have no problem rolling over or interfering with smallmans. So i think id like if these people were unable to attack or were severely penalized for attacking enemies not on the gvg list or whatever.
I dont know if it could be solution to have people that sign on the gvg list then unable to attack other enemies than gvg for the next week, like a realm timer, and have it be account wide.
They're being catered to when theyre the problem.

Last week our smallmen of 4people got attacked by a fullgroup (which is completely fine). We were obviously getting rolled, but put up a decent fight almost killing one of their squishies when another group added them from behind. It was quite amusing to see that 4different people from the group that attacked us started yelling while they were getting slaughtered because they tunnelvisioned on a 4man that suddenly fought back

We have experienced tons of hypocrisy from several different GvG groups over the past months/years. From watching their fight from the sideline and being killed by the winners, to being chased across multiple zones as trio by a known GvG-group, etc... we thought we had seen it all. But the audacity to /y for a fairfight while trying to roll over a group half your size...lol that really took the cake. And it wasn't just one person doing it out of reflex. 4members of that group yelled multiple times...

I really like the general idea of the gvg-system to encourage lower skilled and ranked players to try out 8vs8, etc...
But the spirit of honorful 8vs8 does not really exist anymore, or at least the majority doesn't care for it and just exploits the system for benefits