Side stun for berserkers plz - Phoenix Freeshard

Class is just all around inferior to other light tanks.

Sun 21 Oct 2018 12:01 AM by Cadebrennus

daocgod wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Oct 2018 11:54 PM
Class is just all around inferior to other light tanks.

Except for that whole "100% crit" thing lol

Sun 21 Oct 2018 12:04 AM by daocgod

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Oct 2018 12:01 AM
daocgod wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Oct 2018 11:54 PM
Class is just all around inferior to other light tanks.

Except for that whole "100% crit" thing lol

Savages 2 hit casters and BMs/Mercs 3 shot them. You don't even need Vendo to accomplish this. I would take having slam over vendo any day of the week.

Sun 21 Oct 2018 1:16 AM by Cadebrennus

daocgod wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Oct 2018 12:04 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Oct 2018 12:01 AM
daocgod wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Oct 2018 11:54 PM
Class is just all around inferior to other light tanks.

Except for that whole "100% crit" thing lol

Savages 2 hit casters and BMs/Mercs 3 shot them. You don't even need Vendo to accomplish this. I would take having slam over vendo any day of the week.

Seriously dude? You've got anytime hinders in all 4 weapon lines that Zerkers have access to and a side stun chain in hammer (2 parts).

If you can't make it work with access to all of the above then maybe you aren't the DAOCgod you claim to be.

Sun 21 Oct 2018 3:50 AM by daocgod

2 second stun real good lmao
i dont play the class and wouldnt group one because they are just shit at the moment

Mon 22 Oct 2018 1:17 PM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Oct 2018 1:16 AM
daocgod wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Oct 2018 12:04 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Oct 2018 12:01 AM
Except for that whole "100% crit" thing lol

Savages 2 hit casters and BMs/Mercs 3 shot them. You don't even need Vendo to accomplish this. I would take having slam over vendo any day of the week.

Seriously dude? You've got anytime hinders in all 4 weapon lines that Zerkers have access to and a side stun chain in hammer (2 parts).

If you can't make it work with access to all of the above then maybe you aren't the DAOCgod you claim to be.

there is not a single anytime hinder in any weapon line! and the side chain stun is 2 sec rofl

Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:00 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 1:17 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Oct 2018 1:16 AM
daocgod wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Oct 2018 12:04 AM
Savages 2 hit casters and BMs/Mercs 3 shot them. You don't even need Vendo to accomplish this. I would take having slam over vendo any day of the week.

Seriously dude? You've got anytime hinders in all 4 weapon lines that Zerkers have access to and a side stun chain in hammer (2 parts).

If you can't make it work with access to all of the above then maybe you aren't the DAOCgod you claim to be.

there is not a single anytime hinder in any weapon line! and the side chain stun is 2 sec rofl

Axe: Pillager --} Plunderer
Hammer: side and rear styles
Left Axe: Ravager --} Atrophy
Sword: Assault --} Baldur's Fury

If players like you would simply research the style lines instead of starting off with a whine the boards would be filled with less crap and more useful information for those who seek it. Seriously, just try reading more about the class you want to play instead of immediately speccing "the meta" without asking questions. I'm not trying to be mean, just direct.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:05 PM by Kaziera

Played zerk after they added sidestun on life. Was ridiculously strong. Sidestun, vendo, banespike, followup sidestun, 2h backstyle, dead. No chance of heal or defense.

Please dont do that here.

Tue 23 Oct 2018 8:49 AM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:00 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 1:17 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Oct 2018 1:16 AM
Seriously dude? You've got anytime hinders in all 4 weapon lines that Zerkers have access to and a side stun chain in hammer (2 parts).

If you can't make it work with access to all of the above then maybe you aren't the DAOCgod you claim to be.

there is not a single anytime hinder in any weapon line! and the side chain stun is 2 sec rofl

Axe: Pillager --} Plunderer
Hammer: side and rear styles
Left Axe: Ravager --} Atrophy
Sword: Assault --} Baldur's Fury

If players like you would simply research the style lines instead of starting off with a whine the boards would be filled with less crap and more useful information for those who seek it. Seriously, just try reading more about the class you want to play instead of immediately speccing "the meta" without asking questions. I'm not trying to be mean, just direct.

lol you stupid? i dont see an anytimer here and as far is i know the only class that has access to an anytime snare is armsman in a later patchlvl, maybe you should do better research. btw follow up snares are crap and only look viable in pen and paper daoc. anyway there is still no actually usefull stun besides the 2sec lolstun.

and btw i dont play zerk nor do i really care about sidestun.

Tue 23 Oct 2018 10:36 AM by Caballo

daocgod wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Oct 2018 11:54 PM
Class is just all around inferior to other light tanks.

Hello daocgod,

thank you for giving up your suggestions to improve Phoenix even more!
Sadly, I can assure you here that we are not planning on adding a sidestun for Zerkers in the future.

Before you go completely mad about this:
Despite the fact that this change would be far off 1.65, I'll give you a short explanation of how - in our opinion - Midgards distinguished Off-Tanks both have their very unique and important role on the battlefields:

Berserker: is the choice for people that prefer a reliable source of constant, confident and solid melee DPS. (Decent growth-rates, decent weaponskill, access to crush damage) To ensure a proper application of his damage, the Berserker has access to a variety of snares: e.g. Side- and backsnare (Hammer) and Prevent Flight as RA.
Plus: If played properly and depending on traffic, your teddybear can provide you with an incredible damage spike (LA or 2h) at least once per 1-2 incs.
If you got a Zerker sticked, you will have a hard time getting rid of it as you need hard CC (peel or disease wont help).
Summary: constant dps, snares, good WS = better against other melees

Savage: is the choice for "damage-gamblers". Meaning that the damage-over-time in a usual application timeframe of about 10-15s may be exorbitant, but may also be a lot lower than expected, depending on how many claw-swings you get. (very low gr on anytimer, 0-3 extra swings, low weaponskill = more likely to be blocked by tanks with high WS). Thus, the Savage offers a variety of stuns (rear (short), side (long)) to keep his victims in place and unable to block/parry/evade for a few swings. However, the lack of access to snares or PF will it make hard for you staying stuck to your target - even if you are "only" diseased or snared.
Summary: dmg-spikes/dmg-dips, stuns, worse WS but may triple/quad-hit a caster

I'm very sure there will quite a few Berserkers playing, its not "inferior" to any other offtank, its just different.

Very Best
Caballo

Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:29 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 8:49 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:00 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 1:17 PM
there is not a single anytime hinder in any weapon line! and the side chain stun is 2 sec rofl

Axe: Pillager --} Plunderer
Hammer: side and rear styles
Left Axe: Ravager --} Atrophy
Sword: Assault --} Baldur's Fury

If players like you would simply research the style lines instead of starting off with a whine the boards would be filled with less crap and more useful information for those who seek it. Seriously, just try reading more about the class you want to play instead of immediately speccing "the meta" without asking questions. I'm not trying to be mean, just direct.

lol you stupid? i dont see an anytimer here and as far is i know the only class that has access to an anytime snare is armsman in a later patchlvl, maybe you should do better research. btw follow up snares are crap and only look viable in pen and paper daoc. anyway there is still no actually usefull stun besides the 2sec lolstun.

and btw i dont play zerk nor do i really care about sidestun.

You should stop posting and start reading

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/midgard_styles.html

Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:51 PM by Niix

Caballo wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 10:36 AM
daocgod wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Oct 2018 11:54 PM
Class is just all around inferior to other light tanks.

Hello daocgod,

thank you for giving up your suggestions to improve Phoenix even more!
Sadly, I can assure you here that we are not planning on adding a sidestun for Zerkers in the future.

Before you go completely mad about this:
Despite the fact that this change would be far off 1.65, I'll give you a short explanation of how - in our opinion - Midgards distinguished Off-Tanks both have their very unique and important role on the battlefields:

Berserker: is the choice for people that prefer a reliable source of constant, confident and solid melee DPS. (Decent growth-rates, decent weaponskill, access to crush damage) To ensure a proper application of his damage, the Berserker has access to a variety of snares: e.g. Side- and backsnare (Hammer) and Prevent Flight as RA.
Plus: If played properly and depending on traffic, your teddybear can provide you with an incredible damage spike (LA or 2h) at least once per 1-2 incs.
If you got a Zerker sticked, you will have a hard time getting rid of it as you need hard CC (peel or disease wont help).
Summary: constant dps, snares, good WS = better against other melees

Savage: is the choice for "damage-gamblers". Meaning that the damage-over-time in a usual application timeframe of about 10-15s may be exorbitant, but may also be a lot lower than expected, depending on how many claw-swings you get. (very low gr on anytimer, 0-3 extra swings, low weaponskill = more likely to be blocked by tanks with high WS). Thus, the Savage offers a variety of stuns (rear (short), side (long)) to keep his victims in place and unable to block/parry/evade for a few swings. However, the lack of access to snares or PF will it make hard for you staying stuck to your target - even if you are "only" diseased or snared.
Summary: dmg-spikes/dmg-dips, stuns, worse WS but may triple/quad-hit a caster

I'm very sure there will quite a few Berserkers playing, its not "inferior" to any other offtank, its just different.

Very Best
Caballo

Thank you for that, hopefully it helps quell the outrage... however to be frank the real reason Zerkers are inferior to savages and other light tanks is the ghastly defense and inability to avoid peels.
Savages get 360 evade and insane evade buff.
BM's get 360 evade, and access to shield / slam.
Mercs get DT, chain and access to shield / slam.

Zerkers just don't break enough self reliance on anti-peel to be good enough and until they have something they will be inferior to other light tanks regardless of one trick pony 2hand vendo hits.

In all seriousness you should look into 360 deg parry and parry % buff for zerkers, or something to offset their inability to compete in the defense department... I mean tread carefully I guess but doubt anything will be done. Zerkers will be fine in zerg environment where peels mean nothing, just won't find a spot in mid tank groups cuz savages avoiding 3-4 slams in a row gains insane amounts of tempo compared to zerker avoiding 0 and eating a 20+sec snare.

Tue 23 Oct 2018 4:12 PM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:29 PM
........

You should stop posting and start reading

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/midgard_styles.html
[/quote]

either you are in 1st grade and cannot read or you want to troll.

there is no ANYtime snare!

Tue 23 Oct 2018 5:16 PM by Kralin

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 4:12 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:29 PM
........

You should stop posting and start reading

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/midgard_styles.html

either you are in 1st grade and cannot read or you want to troll.

there is no ANYtime snare!
[/quote]

It's true it's not anytime, but Conquer in Hammer is from behind target and easy as hell to get off considering your targets are likely running from you.

Also, @Niix, I think the Berserker also receives Advanced Evade at level 35 just like the Savage, BM and Merc. So they aren't defenseless like you suggest.

Tue 23 Oct 2018 5:44 PM by Niix

Kralin wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 5:16 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 4:12 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:29 PM
........

You should stop posting and start reading

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/midgard_styles.html

either you are in 1st grade and cannot read or you want to troll.

there is no ANYtime snare!

It's true it's not anytime, but Conquer in Hammer is from behind target and easy as hell to get off considering your targets are likely running from you.

Also, @Niix, I think the Berserker also receives Advanced Evade at level 35 just like the Savage, BM and Merc. So they aren't defenseless like you suggest.
[/quote]

Well then something’s broken or all zerks are u lucky AF cuz I have zero problem slam peeling zerks and nightmare doing Bm merc... in part because of shield but even disregarding I frequently take 3-4 slams to land on merc bms and never found it hard to land Zerker

Tue 23 Oct 2018 9:19 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 4:12 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:29 PM
........

You should stop posting and start reading

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/midgard_styles.html

either you are in 1st grade and cannot read or you want to troll.

there is no ANYtime snare!
[/quote]

Read the lists again smart guy. There are anytime two-part chains that end in a "hinder" which is also called a snare.

Wed 24 Oct 2018 9:30 AM by Sepplord

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 9:19 PM
Read the lists again smart guy. There are anytime two-part chains that end in a "hinder" which is also called a snare.

Seriously, cut your losses. A two-part chain starting with an anytimer and ending in a snare isn't an anytime-snare, the snare style literally has a prerequisite.
You both seem more concerned about playing the "no YOU are wrong"-game and insulting each others as smart guys sarcastically, than the original discussion.

Wed 24 Oct 2018 4:36 PM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Oct 2018 9:30 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 9:19 PM
Read the lists again smart guy. There are anytime two-part chains that end in a "hinder" which is also called a snare.

Seriously, cut your losses. A two-part chain starting with an anytimer and ending in a snare isn't an anytime-snare, the snare style literally has a prerequisite.
You both seem more concerned about playing the "no YOU are wrong"-game and insulting each others as smart guys sarcastically, than the original discussion.

If a two part chain starts with no prerequisites then yes, it is an anytime chain. Simple syntax here. There's nothing complex about it.

Fri 26 Oct 2018 12:54 AM by Falken

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Oct 2018 4:36 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Oct 2018 9:30 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 9:19 PM
Read the lists again smart guy. There are anytime two-part chains that end in a "hinder" which is also called a snare.

Seriously, cut your losses. A two-part chain starting with an anytimer and ending in a snare isn't an anytime-snare, the snare style literally has a prerequisite.
You both seem more concerned about playing the "no YOU are wrong"-game and insulting each others as smart guys sarcastically, than the original discussion.

If a two part chain starts with no prerequisites then yes, it is an anytime chain. Simple syntax here. There's nothing complex about it.

If it is a two style chain that results in a snare it isn't an anytime snare, the only class in game with an "anytime" snare is armsman because its a 1 style snare (sneaks also have garrote in CS tree, but we don't really count them cause you don't see them grouped).

The problem with a two style snare is that once you do the first hit in the style that doesn't snare the person loses the snare effect, and if you are diseased or snared they will start to out run you during that time where they have no snare, and thus you won't get a 2nd style off to resnare them and now you are kited and useless.

If a style has a positional requirement (i.e. conquerer is hammer from behind) then it doesn't count as an anytime, because you can't use it anytime/anywhere, it has to be from behind which isn't hard but it isn't considered an anytime. For something to be an "anytime" ability it needs to be blank in the prerequisite column on the http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/midgard_styles.html

On topic response:

As far as this thread goes, zerkers are very underrepresented and rightfully so (predict 6 out of 10 light tanks will be savages for launch, maybe 2 out of 10 zerkers). They do better against other melee classes or guarded targets, but who goes after melee first on an inc? Idea is to go for supports ideally and avoid tanks unless that's just all you can focus to get some timers. Savage may be RNG damage, but if you are hitting an unguarded target by yourself without being peeled you are going to kill it much faster than a zerker will because the pros to being a zerker (penetrating more WS from dual wielding and snare are irrelevant in this case, also not recommended to vendo if you aren't mez/stun immune so can't be poppin it all willy nilly). Savage also gets access to thrust in their claws, whereas zerker is slash/crush damage and when you consider armor tables of Hib/Alb I would rather be thrust on those tables than crush (weak to thrust = cleric/minst/merc vuln, hib=neutral arms/pally/friar=resistant to thrust / crush=arms/pally/friar/bard/bm vuln / druid,warden,cleric, merc, minst, reaver=resistant to crush), however mid tanks don't really have much choice for weapons due to needing the back snare in hammer so they all go crush.

From mid POV your primary targets (on paper of course who knows when you actually go out and what you find) are cleric/sorc/druid/bard/minst > any clothie (which is neutral to all weaps). Savage hits all those primary targets with either vuln damage or neutral, while zerker only gets vuln on bard, but cleric+druid+minst are all resistant.

With the way healing is on this server, I personally believe that random spikey damage wins out over slow consistent damage of zerker because you can just randomly drop a target or force out a timer, whereas zerker damage is fairly straightforward and predictable, while zerks have snares to ensure staying on their target the Savage has crazy anti peeling with their evade and parry buffs which causes them to be just as hard to be peeled. Savages are also more defense oriented than zerkers and will out shine a zerker when being focused by tanks (17-21% resist buff, 21% evade buff, 21% parry buff) can also evade snare a tank off them whereas zerker has no ability to bolster their defense at all and just sit there getting murdered while its 100% on the supports to keep them alive.

Apologies for the novel, maybe went to in depth. Just my 2 cents.