Comparison of Animist speclines for PvE

Started 14 Jan 2019
by Thinal
in Hibernia
Spec lines and the PvE Animist

I see a lot of questions in /advice regarding how to spec an Animist, so I thought I'd offer my own take on how these spell lines compare in PvE. I'm not getting into the RvR Animist because it tends to be a very specialized niche where it exists at all; Animists tend to not be part of the RvR 8-man meta and are more likely to be in Keep battles.

VERDANT
This line is decent, but is not versatile. It forces a very specific playstyle to be effective.

The objective of the Verdant Animist is to draw critters to your controlled turret (CT), then use the pet PBAOE to blast critters off the map.

The first problem is in getting critters to attack your CT in the first place. Your CT has taunts, but they'd not effective in overcoming the aggro you've accumulated onto yourself by drawing the critters in the first place. From testing, the Verdant appears to be the least effective CT in directly peeling aggro off of you.

To help with this, you can use one of at least three strategies:

1. Use a low-aggro draw, such as the CON debuff from the Creeping baseline. I tend to use this debuff a lot to draw across all Animist specs for this very reason. It doesn't really give you aggro so much as it just makes your presence known, so your CT will usually have little trouble in peeling it off of you.
Benefits: Quick, available from level 12 (you can use the slightly slower level 8 root before then), costs little power.
Drawbacks: Not good for drawing more than one critter at a time, as the debuff has a 10-second cooldown.

2. Use one or more fire-and-forget (FnF) turrets from the Creeping baseline, placed <=700 units away. Phoenix has custom code not in other freeshards that causes all aggro generated by FnFs to transfer to the CT IF the CT exists and is close enough to the FnF. Somewhere between 700-800 units, the FnF is too far away to do this.
Benefits: Can draw multiple creatures fairly automatically.
Drawbacks: Can easily draw far too many creatures, and you'll have trouble keeping your CT alive. You'll have to spam pet heals (baseline Verdant, so at least you'll be good at them) rather than PBAOEs, and your CT is going to kill VERY slowly by itself. It has more damage in melee range than Arboreal or Creeping CTs, but not by much.

3. Draw with a damage spell, move to where the CT is between you and the critter, then fire the PBAOE to land while the critter is in range.
Benefits: Actually kinda fun, and damages the target as well.
Drawbacks: Requires effective timing, can still fail to draw aggro to the CT if your damage spell was too effective, and probably ultimately isn't any faster than the CON debuff method.

Once your CT has aggro and remains alive, you're pretty safe. PBAOEs draw aggro to your CT, not to you, so as long as you keep it alive and nothing else sneaks up on you, you're going to live.

Because the FnF strategy is largely required, this requires a bit of room. In dungeon passage rooms, it's often possible to place FnFs too far away to start attacking everything before you're ready, but not always. So you're going to be far more effective outside.

A good outside strategy would be to place the CT in a close but safe place on its own, and put one FnF 650 or so units away to draw in critters. Then per your area and power management be happy with that and just PBEAOE / heal away, add more FnFs 650 units BEHIND the CT to assist in attacking critters drawn to the CT, or add more FnFs to the FORWARD FnF to draw in even more critters.

In groups, you'll need people to keep critters in range of your PBAOE. This works easily with some group types / members, not so much with others. Newb pickup groups (PUGs) are going to be the worst. Your CT does ZERO damage from range, only taunts, so only your FnFs or own baseline Arboreal / Creeping damage spells are going to contribute to the fight. Of course, these groups tend to want you to just plant FnFs and sit on your ass anyhow, so it's probably no thang.

Final note: many old Verdant guides recommend using the spec-level 2 CT from Creeping with the PBAOE from Verdant. The idea is that even though the pet damage is almost zero after just a few levels, it does have a snare that can be useful. The problem with this on Phoenix is that pet level is capped for any given spell level, so your CT is going to very quickly be a grey pet unless you continue to invest in Creeping. (In original 1.65 dynamics, your pet level would continue to be 88% of your Animist's level, so it would have decent AF/health, and just damage output was determined by the spell level.) Splitting spec lines is NOT effective for an Animist.


CREEPING
This is my least favorite spec line. It has all of the drawbacks and none of the benefits of Verdant. It remains a crowd favorite, so I'll need to explain why.

For Creeping spec, you get higher CTs, an AOE root, and a wider variety of FnFs instead of just damage from baseline Creeping. Your Creeping baseline bombers are going to have less variance, too. And... that's pretty much it.

People insist that Creeping spec does two other things: reduces costs of casting FnFs and reduces variance of FnFs' own damage spells. Sounds awesome, but I'm dubious, as I'm not seeing either effect. Focus on casting staffs is what causes a reduction of power consumption at this patch level, but all loot-gen casting staffs on Phoenix have all focuses at level 50. (If a staff's focus for your spell line is >= the spell level - 1, then the spell's cost is lowered.) I've found little to no difference in how many FnFs I can cast on a full power bar between Creeping and other specs.

As for reduced variance of FnFs' own damage spells, this is harder to test. I'm not seeing a difference, but it would be worth some tests. The challenge is in placing FnFs at the right distance from a level-appropriate testing dummy so it attacks only that dummy, or combing the combat logs, as you can't choose the target for your FnFs.

The CT has a snare, which can be useful. The only other CC an Animist has available is Root. This does have less damage than an Arboreal's CT to compensate, however.

The extra FnFs are all essentially useless. They reduce target's AF (entirely useless alone) or melee damage (seems useful, but rarely worth the cast). Even if they were worth the cast time / power, Phoenix has a cap of 14 FnFs per AREA, not per Animist, so it's a waste of a valuable pet slot.

The AOE root has its uses, but the baseline single-target root is effective in almost any situation where you even need a root. And once one of your FnFs hits a rooted target (and they do in 1.65, not tested on Phoenix, though they do not attack mezzed targets, confirmed on Phoenix), then it's moot anyhow.

Creeping has a baseline bomber spell, so the Animist can effectively participate in battle instead of just watching turrets do it all, but it's generally best just to let the turrets do the work. Creeping bombers have a slight body debuff attached, but this isn't going to make much of a difference outside of boss battles. It's also pretty easy to draw aggro AWAY from the Creeping CT, since the CT is also doing less damage. The CT can effectively hold aggro with enough FnFs to draw aggro toward the CT (see the Verdant section for more on this), but maintaining FnFs generally doesn't leave enough power for bombers.

So the playstyle of Creeping is generally a CT and multiple FnFs doing all of the damage, while the Animist is in power recovery mode almost all of the time. Bear in mind that if your mushrooms are fighting, YOU are in combat, so only in-combat recovery applies. Your power bar will grow more slowly, Mystic Crystal Lore won't work, and campfires will do nothing until 10 seconds after your last mushroom attack. Fortunately, Phoenix won't penalize you with even slower power recovery when under 1/2 a bar, Serenity works fine, and power recovery potions / mentalist buffs work fine in combat mode.

As you have neither the pet PBAOE nor the lower-variance heal spells from the Verdant line, you'll probably want to place your FnFs far enough away from your CT so they don't transfer aggro, but your CT is still close enough to hit your FnFs' attackers. I've said 750 units in the past, but I have found areas / creatures where this is still too close. 800 units seems to be effective pretty much anywhere. 950 units (just shy of mushroom casting range) is fine on other freeshards, but too far away on Phoenix. (This is a GOOD thing; the biggest problem with FnFs is that they often draw WAY too much, so a reduced aggro range helps more than it hurts. Phoenix FnFs seems to be better at concentrating on the same target and firing in unison as well.)


ARBOREAL
My preferred spec. You'll be fighting almost identically to a Creeping most of the time, but you have options to fight in tighter spaces or to mimic a Verdant, albeit more dangerously.

Arboreal spec gives you BOMBERS, AOE bombers, root FnFs (useless though I keep seeing newbs popping them), and higher CTs.

The Arboreal CT does the most (ranged) damage and draws the most aggro of the three. It's pretty straightforward: it shoots things, no side effects. It's not hard to draw a critter off of one, but it's not difficult to keep aggro on the CT, either. In other 1.65 freeshards, bombers draw almost no aggro; on Phoenix, they draw appreciable aggro. But the aggro formula appears to be pretty straightforward here; it's whoever has done the most damage. If you let your CT get in at least two hits (that land; watch your battle log), you'll be able to land probably several bombers before you outdamage the CT and draw aggro back onto yourself.

So it can be a very effective strategy to place a single CT, leave it in passive mode, and draw in critters one at a time. I quickbar the pet ATTACK; shift-click the button to get an icon to place on your quickbar. Your CT has a pretty decent range for initiating the attack that appears to be about 1000-1500 units, somewhere between mushroom planting range and bomber range. (NOTE: the CT will simply wait until the critter is in range, then attack it if the critter is too far away; if you get the message "the target is too far away" then it's too far away from YOU, not the CT.) Otherwise, a Creeping baseline CON debuff works well to draw critters without drawing personal aggro. They can get in an attack before they turn to the CT if they're close enough to you to reach you before the CT lands a spell, but they will turn to the CT once it draw blood.

Once the CT has aggro and has hit it at least TWICE, you can generally start to bomber the critter without pulling it off of the CT. This varies per critter and how much damage each of you is doing. It is possible for the CT to be resisted, which doesn't accumulate aggro, so watch combat logs.

Alternately, you can just open up and bomber away at your target, and expect that by the time it gets into range to hurt you back, your CT will be able to assist in demolishing it before it can do much damage to you. This is quicker but riskier, best for easier targets. The nice thing about this strategy is that bombers are SLOW, so you can get a few in-route before the first one hits your target. This is not a good strategy with the Arboreal baseline lifetaps, as those are DD and will immediately draw, though you can use a bomber for the first attack or two then switch to lifetaps once the first bomber is about to land.

Alternately, you can stack a root and a lifetap. Fire a root (Creeping baseline), then fire a lifetap. You want the lifetap to land FIRST, or it will break the root. This causes critters to trickle into your CT range at a manageable rate and with some damage already done. Not fully tested across all levels and targets, but the CT seems to have an easier time regaining aggro than by drawing with just a bomber.

Alternately, it's also possible to play a full Creeping style as an Arboreal with little or no downside. Just plant FnFs around, 800ish units away if you want to spread aggro, or 650- units away if you want to concentrate aggro.

Finally, you can play a semi-Verdant style, albeit not safely, by using your AOE bombers instead of the PBAOE. You'll want to plant FnFs <=650 units away from the CT to help concentrate aggro onto the CT, then draw multiple critters (using the AOE to draw can be very risky but very effective on weaker targets, or just CON debuff / bomber / lifetap multiple targets), and AOE them once they're on the CT. Expect them to step off the CT and attack you, but they will eventually be redrawn to the CT by the FnFs, so this can be effective at killing masses of weak critters.

So this is why I like Arboreal: the flexibility. It does whatever a Creeping can do, and it can take less room and sometimes even mimic a Verdant style. It's at least as powerful as the other two. It might even get you an RvR slot, though I wouldn't hold out on that one outside of Keep battles, and roll a different caster if you want to 8-man.

Just NEVER EVER EVER plant a tangler, or I will yell at you. They waste a valuable FnF slot and they get broken immediately, so all they do is hand out free root immunity. It's especially infuriating when I'm hitting the area cap because some other newb Animist is planting tanglers.
Mon 14 Jan 2019 11:21 PM by Zansobar
The solution is play an Animist with other players in a group and they shine very brightly in Pve.
Mon 14 Jan 2019 11:40 PM by toloth9
Thanks for the information. As a someone new to animist and Hibernia it's very helpful.
Fri 18 Jan 2019 9:52 PM by Thinal
In all fairness, I didn't mention the bladeturn bombers from Verdant spec. If those are a priority, they take at least 7 specs into verdant. This can be done by level 28 with just level-1 spec in Arb/Creep, but certainly expensive for a non-Verdant in the early levels. I've not found them to be helpful, but some people are friendlier than I am.

I also didn't mention end-game spec. Any animist regardless of concentration should have the 12 creeping aoe root and the 7 verdant bladeturn bomber at a minimum. I prefer 50 arb/ 12 creep / 16 verdant to give the baseline pet heals a little more umph.
Wed 20 Feb 2019 7:30 PM by Thinal
I have tested power cost reduction of creeping spec and it is far more pronounced than an earlier test. In the earlier test, I got 12 FnFs instead of 11 with a full power bar. In my recent test (level 40ish), I got 12 instead of 7.

As power regain is a primary limiter of any animist, this is not a trivial difference. I also spend a good portion of my time playing in a "creep style" with all-shroom attacks and the caster using attacks only to draw, if at all. So in summary, my OP does indeed underrate creeping spec.

On the other hand, as of level 45 I've still not been wanting for power and easily hit the 14 FnF cap with serenity 2 and level 30 (+3) power regain potions. I also have far more flexibility as arborial spec than creeping, as I also spend appreciable time using arborial nukes with shrooms used to hold aggro and assist in killing. Which approach to use between "creep style" and "arb style" is mostly the camp. If I can survive mass draws (how massive depends on precise placement patterns), I'll go "creep style," and if I need to precisely control how much I draw, I do it "arb style." Generally it's low OJs for creep, reds / high OJs for arb. If I were creep, I'd be marginally better at "creep style" and significantly worse at "arb style", as I'd be down to baseline nukes and a lower-damage controlled turret.

I've noticed that verdant has become very popular, and it's a good grouping spec. I see no reason creeps or arbs couldn't group exceedingly well, but you'll probably be expected to be verdant in a group. As verdant is also the safest spec, I would encourage answering anyone asking in /advice for "what spec for animist?" with "verdant." I just wouldn't actually play one. :p
Fri 10 May 2019 12:52 PM by Sleepi
This is extremely helpful. Thank you!
Fri 29 Jan 2021 7:12 PM by Tulpa
Thinal wrote:
Wed 20 Feb 2019 7:30 PM
I have tested power cost reduction of creeping spec and it is far more pronounced than an earlier test. In the earlier test, I got 12 FnFs instead of 11 with a full power bar. In my recent test (level 40ish), I got 12 instead of 7.

Can you elaborate on the power usage???? is 50 composite enough to minimize casting cost or is it a higher the better situation?

Inquiring minds want to know and are too lazy to do our own testing.....
Sat 30 Jan 2021 5:32 PM by Aprox
I do not agree with thinal.

farming with an animist is not about having the most utility. It is about maxing the most useful utility. And that is either the pbae-bomb from spec line together with the tankyness of the CT (group play) or keeping up max number of fnf-turrets (solo).

Group: U are not the main dmg dealer with the pbaoe. U hold the aggro of the mobs, so the Bombs can cast the real dmg. Thats it. To do that u need the highest pet of the spec line for best tankyness and the highest CT-based-aoe dmg to keep the aggro on pet. (The absorb buff is also very useful for tankyness). If u try this solo, u will run out of mana in no time and have significant downtime. no bombers, debuffs, roots or anything needed in that group-playstyle. u have one job, and that is keeping aggro on pet.
Solo: Its all about managing aggro and Mana. Aggro: U dont want the aggro on the CT. Because healing the CT eats up ur mana really fast. U want the aggro on the fnf turrets, they die anyway within 2 min and are not worth healing. second reason: Once ur CT dies, all aggro jumps to the caster. Solution: U place the CT ~900 Units behind the fnf turrets.
That way thee aggro will stay on the fnf-turrets, while the CT still deals dmg and might save u with its snare if a fnf dies and u get the aggro. There is no need for any spells from the other spec-lines in solo farming. Except for the roots, if something goes wrong and u need to run. Only mana and aggro management is important. that means u go full creep-spec for lowest mana cost of the fnf-turrets. (the melee debuff turret is very usefull for pulling, cause it has a higher range than the fnf-turrets.) With rr 3l2 u can keep up max turrets at all times and perma pull (serenety 3 and mcl 2, some prefer serenety 1 and mcl 3).

With other words: u go either full verdant or full creep (group or solo). If u have some RR, u can go for a tri-spec and become a jack of all trades. U can do some zerging, group pve and solo pve. None of it as good as a pure spec but good enough if u dont like respeccing all the time.

Arboreal is only good for DS and RvR...the aoe bomber spells dont deal enough dmg and cost to much mana to be effective. every eld or ench bomb does the job better.

happy farming.
Sat 30 Jan 2021 9:37 PM by daytonchambers
Thinal wrote:
Mon 14 Jan 2019 8:34 PM
Spec lines and the PvE Animist

Just NEVER EVER EVER plant a tangler, or I will yell at you. They waste a valuable FnF slot and they get broken immediately, so all they do is hand out free root immunity. It's especially infuriating when I'm hitting the area cap because some other newb Animist is planting tanglers.

Wrong Wrong Wrong. Two simple truths here:

First: If you are pure PvE farming close enough to another animist where the shroom cap is an issue then you are farming in the wrong spot. You should be in a location where you control 100% of the pet placement. Period.

Second: Tanglers are incredibly useful for pve. That is, they are if you are adjusting ground target to widen your pull area and create a kill box. If you are stacking 100% of your pets in one spot then you're playing lazy and not maximizing your pull potential in the first place.

You place the tangler or tanglers closest to the CT, with DD FnF pets further out. The pets start to cast once the mob is in range, so that the root pet starts casting last then the root hits after the other pets have already nuked and are winding up for another cast. What this does is allow your FnF pets more combat rounds to do damage before the mob even has a chance to get to and damage your Primary pet.

By the way.... Free root immunity is an RvR issue, and that usually happens when some jerkoff animist plants a small stack of hearts which then spam their worthless DDs breaking every bit of CC in the area.
Sat 30 Jan 2021 10:36 PM by gotwqqd
daytonchambers wrote:
Sat 30 Jan 2021 9:37 PM
Thinal wrote:
Mon 14 Jan 2019 8:34 PM
Spec lines and the PvE Animist

Just NEVER EVER EVER plant a tangler, or I will yell at you. They waste a valuable FnF slot and they get broken immediately, so all they do is hand out free root immunity. It's especially infuriating when I'm hitting the area cap because some other newb Animist is planting tanglers.

Wrong Wrong Wrong. Two simple truths here:

First: If you are pure PvE farming close enough to another animist where the shroom cap is an issue then you are farming in the wrong spot. You should be in a location where you control 100% of the pet placement. Period.

Second: Tanglers are incredibly useful for pve. That is, they are if you are adjusting ground target to widen your pull area and create a kill box. If you are stacking 100% of your pets in one spot then you're playing lazy and not maximizing your pull potential in the first place.

You place the tangler or tanglers closest to the CT, with DD FnF pets further out. The pets start to cast once the mob is in range, so that the root pet starts casting last then the root hits after the other pets have already nuked and are winding up for another cast. What this does is allow your FnF pets more combat rounds to do damage before the mob even has a chance to get to and damage your Primary pet.

By the way.... Free root immunity is an RvR issue, and that usually happens when some jerkoff animist plants a small stack of hearts which then spam their worthless DDs breaking every bit of CC in the area.
Another reason why you done put all hearts on one spot is when they are spread out the mobs often gain agg from different hearts and move around, saving hearts from damage
Sun 31 Jan 2021 11:28 AM by CowwoC
Thread is from 2 years ago, of course it's outdated.
Sun 14 Feb 2021 4:47 AM by daytonchambers
CowwoC wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 11:28 AM
Thread is from 2 years ago, of course it's outdated.

Yes someone did some thread necromancy.

No the animist has not been changed in any measurable way since the time of the original post.

So the OP wasn't out of date, it was just bad advice to begin with
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